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TheMadMarquis
02-10-2011, 01:10
The sages over at News and Rumour have a new Empire book out soon, featuring demigriffon knights, and Ulric and Morr Warrior Priests and War Altars. What do you think these should look like, and what should be done to the old units? My views:

- Give Spearmen default shields, and Free Company default light armour

- Reduce the points cost of all missile troops by 1, or 2 for archers and Pistoliers

- Make Knights 20 points

- Raise the mortar to 85 points, the Steam Tank to 325 and the War Altar to 120

- Give Greatswords S4 because they're meant to be better than Swordsmen and because Flagellants are usually better atm

- Do something to make GotE worth taking. How about an Inspection rule that enables him to, at the start of each game, either Inspect Armour and give armour and parry save rerolls to a unit, or Inspect Weapons, and give Armour Piercing to 2-3 units?

- Make the new Warrior Priests different from Sigmarites, but equally valuable. Instead of Hatred and Lore of Light bound spells, Morr war altars should have Death spells, and Morr Warrior Priests should grant Killing Blow and Fear to their units, while Ulricites should cast Beasts and grant Stubborn. Or, something.

CaptScott
02-10-2011, 02:41
There's no doubt that knights will get a points drop, can't see them getting more attacks, and less points means more sales volume.

Mortars (with the same rules) should be at least 100 points.

Stank needs a complete overhaul, perhaps just making it a really tough chariot with a cannon and steam gun.

Flagellants will likely be made much cheaper (7 points) to encourage large blocks of frothing loonies, who will take lots of damage yet have the numbers to hit back (not feasible at 10 points a pop at the moment). This is better than just increasing their stats, and once again will boost sales volume.

Okuto
02-10-2011, 03:20
It was to my understanding we weren't getting a new book, just new gubbins to buy.

I wiuld disagree with S4 default groldswords though, even orcs aren't S4 default, S4 basic is not really needed

Also would be against light armor standard for free company as it isn't particularly helpful and would make free company 1 pt more, its fine as it is, should one feel so inclined to pay the pts to armor their rabble they can, not all of use want our free company to cost more...

Spearmen with shields standard isn't that big of a deal, there's no need to make it mandatory(that is unless the shield is free....)

I think its unneccessary to make the optional options mandatory......choice is always better

crartist24
02-10-2011, 03:55
Id like too see knights on foot, hw shield heavy armor infantry would be nice.

sulla
02-10-2011, 07:23
Wishes? From a non-empire player...

Mortars down to s2, Rocket launchers down to s4, pigeons out the window.

Steam tanks as mounts for engineers, as another way of making engineers relevant.

Priests to dispel as similar type mages (+2 for heroes, +4 for arch lectors) instead of generating dice.

War wagons to also return as engineer mounts, possibly with a cannon option as well as the wierd crew from the old ones.

Return of the troops from the Moot, plus an Imperial Dwarf special character..

Other than that, just rebalancing the points costs and a few new kits IMO. Not too much is needed in the Empire; it's such a complete army already.

Jind_Singh
02-10-2011, 07:33
Ok - I ma a litte bit drunk but my wordds are true!!!

1) BRING BACK MY WAR ALTERS YOU JERKS!!!!

It's a great model, great rules, and it looks cool - nuff said!!!!!

2) Bring back Empire Dwarf Warriors as rare choices - there are SO many Empire Dwarf dammit!!!

3) Empire Knights - ok, I like their current points value - but for petes sake give the main orders some special rules! For White Wolves, Reiksgaurd, etc, make them have some bonus for being who they are!!!

4) Keep the Rune Fang as one of the 8-9 items for our book

5) Incease pts cost for Mortar and other artillary which is currently underpriced

6) Make engineers SAME price as now they can affect ANY warmachine they are well priced

7) KEEP DETACHMEMT RULES PLEASE!!!

8) I hope we get MORE than 8 magic items - dammit it's the Empire, we deserve like 15!!!



time to pour anoher drink!!! yeah!

Aluinn
02-10-2011, 07:39
Wishes? From a non-empire player...

Mortars down to s5

Huh? They're S3 right now; the S6 is only for the model under the template hole. Methinks you may have been cheated.

If you do just mean the S of the hit for the model under the hole, well, S5 would be fine but it wouldn't really make all that much of a difference. Empire players aren't using mortars to kill super-high-Toughness stuff as it stands, as we have cannons for that. Anyone competent will be shooting their mortars at big blocks of infantry every time, and whether one of those ~20 models hit is going to be wounded on a 2+ or a 3+ (IF they're T4) hardly changes matters greatly.

I do think the mortar needs to go up to ~100 points though, at a minimum, as several others mentioned. It is at least as good as a cannon, even if it's slightly less of a "must-have".

theJ
02-10-2011, 09:42
Don't play Empire, but putting Kislevite allies back in would be pretty darn neat. Let's face it, bear cavalry is about fiftythree times more awesome than demigryph cavalry - it'd also help Ulrik themed armies out a lot.
Speaking of Kislevites, if they had a Kislev-styled infantry kit or two that could be taken in place of the current rabble-style infantry, I just may end up picking up the army :)

DivineVisitor
02-10-2011, 09:46
I would like to see:


General, Grand Master and Lector Count rolled into a SINGLE Lord choice.

Runefang REMOVED from magic item list. It should be accounted for within the upgrade cost for a Lector Count and NOT count towards his magic item allowance.

Inner Circle upgrade for Greatswords.

Reiksguard foot return.

Initiative 4 for Greatswords, Reiksguard foot and Knights.

Perhaps a Veteran option for regular State Troops (similar to the Orcs Big'un upgrade). Could increase Weapon Skill and Initiative by 1, maybe heavy armour?

Detachments count towards CORE.

Increase/Lower the points costs of all units where appropriate.

Something Kislevish.

Halflings! (even just so we have access to a BS4 scouting unit)

Dwarf/Ogre unit for Rare.

Fine-tune Steam Tank rules.

Funky characters that have an impact on how its own or nearby units operate in order to compete with the Lv4 Slot that almost every army fills:
-Priests/Arch Lectors that give different bonuses (hatred, killing blow, armour piercing who knows lets get wild).
-Engineers perhaps give bonuses to black powder based missile units they lead +1 Ballistic Skill re-roll 1's just something.
-General/Elector Count to perhaps make the Detachment rule somehow more dangerous (add detachment's ranks to parent unit for steadfast purposes, increase detachment bubble, count as parent unit for any detachment within 6 inches, something like that).
-Grand Master can keep Immune to Psychology bonus.

MOMUS
02-10-2011, 11:27
I bet there is some new technological advancement, steam-titan?

Reptile
02-10-2011, 11:29
Good ideas here.
Bring back halflings and imperial dwarfs because the Empire is not just humans.
Make them 0-1 rare choices because it is mainly humans.

Ogres, I can't decide. They are fluffy and would bring something different gamewise... But I don't know if they fit. Seems like gw is overdosing on ogres recently. 0-1 rare if they do get in.
As has been mentioned the knightly orders each having their own unique special rules (similar to the effects of Chaos marks, but more subtle), they are so different fluffwise it needs to be reflected better on the table top.
I like the ideas here on warrior preists. Morr=itp, Sigmar=hatred, Ulric=stubborn. Different prayers, with Sigmar staying the same, Ulric bringing buffs and Morr being more offensive and destructive (although obviously not in a wizard's league). Identical statlines.

I don't think dismounted knights are necessary, there are enough infantry choices as it is and if the dwarfs, etc. come in we well have more than enough choice in that area.

So many possibilities for this army!
A complete overhaul is not needed, just a few points tweaks and the return of a couple of unit choices, a couple of new ones and two new flavors of warrior priests.

Oh, and some special Undead smashing powers for WPs of Morr.... obviously!

Korraz
02-10-2011, 14:21
That Priest of Morr and Ulric better had to be hilariously cheap, because itp and stubborn compare in no way to hatred.

And as much as I love Reiksguard: Between Swordsmen and Greatswords they'd be pretty redundant.

Damocles8
02-10-2011, 14:45
I really want the Greatswords to have a magic banner option....

DivineVisitor
02-10-2011, 14:46
That Priest of Morr and Ulric better had to be hilariously cheap, because itp and stubborn compare in no way to hatred.

And as much as I love Reiksguard: Between Swordsmen and Greatswords they'd be pretty redundant.

Personally i think a unit of inner circle Reiksguard foot would have their place.

3+ save, 6+ ward, WS, S and I 4. Possibly stubborn aswell if they are an option for Greatswords (like equipped with Great Weapons OR Hand Weapon/Shield). That would be our main infantry anvil right there.

Reptile
02-10-2011, 15:37
That Priest of Morr and Ulric better had to be hilariously cheap, because itp and stubborn compare in no way to hatred.
And as much as I love Reiksguard: Between Swordsmen and Greatswords they'd be pretty redundant.

Yup, I guess with the new steadfast and bsb rules stubborn and itp have lost a lot of their usefulness. What I'm saying is a unit wide special rule different to hatred to differentiate them from Sigmarite priests. Is hatred really so fantastic?

Aye, Reiksguard just don't fit as an infantry unit, but could be an option for the knightly orders.

Gazak Blacktoof
02-10-2011, 16:09
I too would like to see a return of some of the old units- kislevites, war wagons, dwarfs, ogres, etc.

Halberdiers are excellent now, but spears could do with a slight boost, war machines are too brutal and greatswords should probably be able to take magic banners.

I too would like to see the option for a runefang as an elector count upgrade instead of it being a magic item, or alternatively drop the points slightly.

Mcbruce
02-10-2011, 16:13
Foot knights would be a nice idea and quite simple to. Interested to se if we really get god-specific priests as i still have the ulric priests from the storm of chaos, hopefully there will be some priest specific pieces of wargear/magic items.
Would like to see as a new special choice a long rifle team: skirmish infantry with long rifles (not as powerful as regular hochland long rifles but better than standard muskets), if youve seen or read the Sharpe series you'll have the right idea.

Commodus Leitdorf
02-10-2011, 16:50
A rare unit that isn't a Warmachine would be nice...

Oh! and give Flagellants their T4 back!

The rest I can live with honestly though a re-vamp of the detachment rules would be nice as well. Right now it's better to use the points spent on detachments to bulk up your parent instead.

Honestly the list only needs a few little tweeks and nothing major. I'd honestly be happy if they waited on the Empire and got other books done first.

The Low King
02-10-2011, 17:02
Give them:

More guns
Cheaper horde troops
Monsters
Dwarfs
Ogres
High BS archers
More/better cav
Better infantry

because then we can just scrap all the other books

warplock
02-10-2011, 17:14
Release the hounds! The Dogs of War are set free! Woof, woof.

RanaldLoec
02-10-2011, 17:21
You've all missed one small thing that would improve flagellants allot.

Remove the unit cap of 30.

Give me a war wagon option.

Cost increase for mortars.

Elector Counts as a separate choice to generals of the empire.

Keep lord choices separate sorry combining grand masters, arch lectors and generals is just yawnarifi.

update detachment rules.

update steam tank to fit in with the rest of the warhammer movement phase eg random charge.

Mirbeau
02-10-2011, 17:31
More special characters (elector counts - todbringer et al), more on Ostermark, mechanical warshrine things (like in the brb) giving boosts, teutogen guard reissued, no flags unit cap, less Sigmar-centricism, more auxilary units (halflings...), more on 'modern' divides within the empire.

Gazak Blacktoof
02-10-2011, 20:04
Release the hounds! The Dogs of War are set free! Woof, woof.

Actual hounds would be nice too.

sulla
02-10-2011, 22:38
Huh? They're S3 right now; the S6 is only for the model under the template hole. Methinks you may have been cheated.

.Sorry, mistyped. Should have been s2 for the big template.

Korraz
02-10-2011, 23:08
That's rather ridiculous. A morther shell deserves at least the strength of debris flung around by a falling rock.

Commodus Leitdorf
03-10-2011, 02:15
Understandable why people would want the strength to drop on it though. Part of the Balance it had in 7th was that it was more random. I used 2 and only ever got 1, maybe 2, good hits per game...bad man did it hurt when it did hit!

Now....well, lets just say 8th made the Helstorm :evilgrin: and leave it at that.

Okuto
03-10-2011, 02:23
That's rather ridiculous. A morther shell deserves at least the strength of debris flung around by a falling rock.

Indeed.....so a goblin punching me in the face is stronger than a mortar shell throwing up shrapnel:confused:

I'd say someone's been on the wrong end of a mortar many times....

SteelTitan
03-10-2011, 07:45
Maybe it's because I don't run engineers but so far my single mortar hasn't done THAT much. If I got my 75 points' investment out of it twice, Id be a lot.

With so many weak core troops, I think we kinda need cheap-ish warmachines.

abdulaapocolyps
03-10-2011, 09:40
Good stuff on here guys.I'm thinking of doing an empire army but waiting to see what the new book gets and if Mantic make men,as is rumoured.
I think flagellants need the unit cap removing and to be cheaper, Defo.
I also agree with the halflings, there is a real opportunity there.
Knightly orders having optional upgrades depending on their type is a good idea and they need new models...
The one thing I would add is no ogres or dwarfs (id like them but they won't do em as they have their own armies) but a giant would be nice.

Lord Solar Plexus
03-10-2011, 09:58
Hmm, I don't think there will be any new AB out soon but then what do I know?

As to the mortars: When you're firing two of them for three turns, hitting and wounding perfectly each and everytime, and at the end of the day still cannot see any difference in the opposing Skaven force, a price increase is the last thing that comes to my mind. We'll see what GW thinks about this when they get around to our AB of course.

Reiksguard seem meaningless to me. Greatswords are supposed to be the anvil, and a large block of State Troops within the Ld bubble is often as good as fearless.

WP's will definitely change in some way, and I expect State Troops to become cheaper.

Dr Death
03-10-2011, 10:29
Ironically i'd quite like to 'nerf' my own army- not entirely, but there were several benefits to the 7th edition book which i wasn't entirely comfortable with. I would want them to get rid of the option of taking flagellants as core. As an alternative, i would consider adding Witch Hunters in as a champion upgrade for free companies making them seem like the 'angry mob with torches and pitchforks' for the more religiously themed armies.

Stick the steam tank in as a special character (although i do like the idea of having it as an upgrade for an engineer although i'd make it 0-1 in that case). Reintroducing the War Wagon as a replacement for it's ubiquitous role would be a good way of making the steam tank a little bit special (i've got to say i really think making it in plastic was a big mistake for it's image).

State troopers should have the same basic profile across the board- WS3 even for swordsmen- they aren't Estalian Deistros, they're just trained soldiers with a sword in their hands rather than a halberd.

As a superficial change i'd like the 'Empire General' to be given a little more of a flowery name- Elector Count was a bit prescriptive, but 'Field Marshal' would seem to fit for a high ranking fighty captain- gives him a bit more flavour. The option of 'upgrading' them to an elector count who comes with Runefang automatically included in the cost would be alright although i wouldn't remove runefang from the magic item list since there is still the Runefang of Drakwald held in the Imperial Armouries- it's one of the few magic items that actually has an in-world reason to be in the hands of some random made-up general.

In terms of special characters generally, i'm in no rush to see the old special character elector counts returned- i kind of like that they are just 'background' material, and i'm very satisfied with the current list of special characters that covers all the really important posts.

Equally i'm not keen to see the Empire revert to an army of foreign soldiers- Halflings, Dwarves, Ogres, Kislev, it all takes the emphasis away from the men of the Empire who are at the core of the force.

Dr Death

AlphariusOmegon20
03-10-2011, 16:31
A lot of good ideas, and here's my thoughts on a few of them.





- Make the new Warrior Priests different from Sigmarites, but equally valuable. Instead of Hatred and Lore of Light bound spells, Morr war altars should have Death spells, and Morr Warrior Priests should grant Killing Blow and Fear to their units, while Ulricites should cast Beasts and grant Stubborn. Or, something.

I so agree. Currently there is no distinction between Morr, Sigmar and Ulric. There should be distinctions.

BTW, I like your idea for the Priest of Ulric, very fluffy.




I wiuld disagree with S4 default groldswords though, even orcs aren't S4 default, S4 basic is not really needed



I've personally never understood why Orcs are S3 base. Seems that they should be stronger than a goblin, much less a human.

I think GW keeps missing the boat on that one.




Return of the troops from the Moot, plus an Imperial Dwarf special character..



I partially agree. Return the Moot troops, but leave the dwarves in their book.




3) Empire Knights - ok, I like their current points value - but for petes sake give the main orders some special rules! For White Wolves, Reiksgaurd, etc, make them have some bonus for being who they are!!!



I'd lower them to 20 pts like someone else said, but yes there should be a distinction rule wise. As it stands right now, it's pretty much White Wolves and everyone else.


Don't play Empire, but putting Kislevite allies back in would be pretty darn neat. Let's face it, bear cavalry is about fiftythree times more awesome than demigryph cavalry - it'd also help Ulrik themed armies out a lot.
Speaking of Kislevites, if they had a Kislev-styled infantry kit or two that could be taken in place of the current rabble-style infantry, I just may end up picking up the army :)

Kislevite units in general would be nice, especially for those of us that use Middenheim themed armies.


I would like to see:




Inner Circle upgrade for Greatswords.



Detachments count towards CORE.




Yes, and yes. The inner circle upgrade could be used to represent that Teutogen Guard.

Detachments counting as core makes sense, as they seem to be getting away from things not counting as core.


I really want the Greatswords to have a magic banner option....

So true, they should have the option. They are an elite unit after all.


You've all missed one small thing that would improve flagellants allot.

Remove the unit cap of 30.



Yes, this would help massively. ALL units caps, regardless of book or army, should go the way of the dodo.


More special characters (elector counts - todbringer et al)
teutogen guard reissued
less Sigmar-centricism,

Yes to Todbringer, yes, and yes!

Honestly I'd like to see a bit more on Taal also.

naloth
03-10-2011, 17:52
My guesses based on 8th trends:

1) Cannons & Mortars move to rare. Mortar gets reduced to the little template.

2) Lecters and Priests no longer generate dispel dice though they probably get a dispel bonus (count as level 2 for dispel?).

3) 8ish magic items including most of these: Runefang, Speculum, Rod of Power, Laurels of Victory, Aldred's Casket, Ring of Volans, Griffin Banner. I could see some of these going to a special character instead though.

4) War Altar nerf. My guess would be S5 T4 W4 5+ ward, random light spell for +120ish.

5) A discount on Knights (probably drop 1-3 points each), ranged troops (-1 or -2), greatswords (-2 ish since stubborn can be a function of steadfast now), flagellents (-2ish), and Helblaster (-30ish?).

6) Addition of chariot (war wagon?) or some monstrous creature kit.

Wishlist items
1) While I like Halflings they really don't fill any need. Empire has plenty of artillery and ranged options. Instead I would like to see a halfling special character that upgrades a ranged unit like they did with the goblin wolf & spider heroes.

2) Drop the martyr rules from flagellants. Instead just give them re-rolls to hit (every turn). They should probably have frenzy as well.

3) Knightly orders. A few special rules for the various orders would be nice.

4) Better representation of the various other orders such as Morr and Ulrik.

5) Put the war altar or speculum on a special character. It's very annoying to face a weak hero w/stat swapping almost every game.

Korraz
03-10-2011, 17:59
Stick the steam tank in as a special character (although i do like the idea of having it as an upgrade for an engineer although i'd make it 0-1 in that case). Reintroducing the War Wagon as a replacement for it's ubiquitous role would be a good way of making the steam tank a little bit special (i've got to say i really think making it in plastic was a big mistake for it's image).


There are more Steam Tanks than Arch Lectors in the world. I see no reason to make them 0-1. Their cost is restrictive enough.

Okuto
03-10-2011, 18:01
cannons and mortars to rare?!

-Someone has been on the wrong end of the artillery to mention this.....what's empire without artillery.....

Asp
03-10-2011, 18:10
witch hunters
warhounds

No-One
03-10-2011, 18:15
i second Asp, witch hunters as an actual choice in the armylist!

Petey
03-10-2011, 18:44
Lords
Change Arch Lector to High Priest and make him upgradeable to one of the 8 empire gods, with special rules and equipment for each; removing hate and dispell dice (beefy special rules to replace, god specific)

Heroes
Warrior Priest same treatment as Archlector
Add a Witchhunter hero that does Hate and dispel dice
Empire General gains stubborn, no other changes
Engineer Negates Armor Piercing for enemies in base contact w him or his unit, or grants it to his own unit. Special rule to cover whacky inventions

Monsters
Add DemiGriff monster mount for characters

Core
All go down 1 point except Swordsmen.
Light armor standard all around for infantry
Knights go down in cost.
Archers Crossbows and Guns go down 20%

Special
Knights of the inner circle Choice of one special rule of a list or equipment change
Greatsworders 2 point reduction

Rare
Flagellents remove unit cap, allow Witch Hunters to join
Steamtank upgradable, can be taken as a mount for the engineer
Demigriff knights Monsterous Cav

Warmachines brought into line with the standards for 8th ed.

loveless
03-10-2011, 18:52
My guesses based on 8th trends:

1) Cannons & Mortars move to rare. Mortar gets reduced to the little template.

What trend is this based of off?


3) 8ish magic items including most of these: Runefang, Speculum, Rod of Power, Laurels of Victory, Aldred's Casket, Ring of Volans, Griffin Banner. I could see some of these going to a special character instead though.

That's a decent list, really. I'm guessing the Sword of Justice will move to Schwarzhelm only.

-----

My hopes and dreams for the Empire? :p In no particular order:

- Witch Hunter Hero (maybe a special character with hounds?)
- Priests of Morr and Manaan (and Ulrik and so on, but Moor and Manaan are more up my alley)
- Giant *******' Cannon - some maddening rare choice with a disastrous misfire chart and a horrifying damage potential
- War Wagon
- Heavy armor option for Halberdiers and Handgunners
- Slight cost reduction on missile troops
- Noticable cost reduction on knights
- Varied abilities for Knightly Orders
- Engineer BS+1 (probably not going to happen with some of the current rules...let's just go with "rework Engineers")
- Rules for Marius Leitdorf (and some other notable Elector Counts)
- Armor options for Outriders
- Remove cap on Flagellants (give them back T4? Come on, the models are ripped!) & let Sigmarite characters join them

Jericho
03-10-2011, 19:29
Definitely some interesting ideas... overall I don't think they need nearly as much help (ie. discounts) as some people do. Slight drop for cavalry and missile troops maybe, but that's about it. I can see the war machines coming together a bit in terms of cost... Helblaster coming down and Mortar going up slightly.

I do think that Priests will be reworked (the multiple gods idea is cool, but prayers (and bound spells in general) right now are kinda "meh") as they are really spammed to death now for hatred.

I guess you could say that I don't really think Empire needs a new book all that badly. Some new kits would be nice and a few units could probably use a bit of a bump, but Empire is solid and competitive without having anything really "broken" by the current edition. I'm gonna miss their current magic item list though, I'll tell you that much. They definitely have some very useful items in there, ie. lots of tasty armor.

Fingers crossed for no silly monstrous cav that don't belong :p Just give me new Knights, a War Altar/War Wagon kit and boxes of 20 for Empire (to save on the cost a bit) and I could be happy.

Plexi
03-10-2011, 19:33
My hopes for a new empire book is that it's actually a wood elf book.

In all honesty though I hope they bring back some of the old 4th edition characters an rules. I'd like to see the war wagon again if for no other reason that that I won't have to figure out a way to kill a steam tank with a bunch of str 3 attacks every game (plus it was a pretty kool model). Runefang spam! for all your VC/ TK extermination needs!

chaospantz
03-10-2011, 19:44
i dont know what im hoping to see but i have a feeling on whats going to happen.
-Core combat troops wont drop in points since i dont think theirs much lower they can go.
-Knights will get cheaper.
-Cannons will get moved over to a rare choice.
-mortars will probably get moved over to rare choice and stay the same points. Their template will get turned into a small blast like what happened with the scrap launcher.

the only 2 things i guess im hoping will happen
-Heavy knights riding the smaller griffens like what we see out of forgeworld.
-WITCH HUNTERS AS A CHARCTER. Never have i seen so much written about a charcter that isnt actualy in the army book. I'm actually kind of supprised that someone hasn't made some kind of witch hunter at least as a hero level charcter. Maby a lord but at least something.

naloth
03-10-2011, 19:50
cannons and mortars to rare?!

-Someone has been on the wrong end of the artillery to mention this.....what's empire without artillery.....

I'm guessing this will happen because GW moved OG rock lobbers to rare and they decreased the scraplauncher to a small template. If you're not maxing your 25% rares or spamming the same artillery then it doesn't really matter. Having it in "Rare" doesn't mean you won't take approximately the same 1-2 mortars, 1-2 cannons, and a stank. Moving it to Rare only prevents you from doing the 3 cannon, 3 mortar, dual helblaster, dual helstorm, stank army (which frankly doesn't even make a good army anyway).

It's a good trade to move Flagellants to Special (since they will generally be fielded in big expensive blocks) and all the artillery to Rare (since individual pieces don't cost much) more than a limitation.

Besides, you'll also note that I'm one of the few that doesn't think that Mortars are going to get a serious price hike. Simply bringing them in line with the Stone Thrower (which used to be S4 but went to S3) by dropping the template size and moving them to rare (like all other lobbers) works.

Dr Death
03-10-2011, 19:50
There are more Steam Tanks than Arch Lectors in the world. I see no reason to make them 0-1. Their cost is restrictive enough.

Yes, but it's a lot easier to replace an Arch Lector than a Steam Tank- there are any number of high ranking members of the clergy, but there are only twelve (and only eight working) steam tanks in the whole warhammer world. Their ubiquity on the table needs to be seriously curtailed.

Dr Death

naloth
03-10-2011, 19:54
Yes, but it's a lot easier to replace an Arch Lector than a Steam Tank- there are any number of high ranking members of the clergy, but there are only twelve (and only eight working) steam tanks in the whole warhammer world. Their ubiquity on the table needs to be seriously curtailed.


Given the number of arch lectors I've killed or lost it's a wonder anyone is willing to take the job and hop on a War Altar.

IcedCrow
03-10-2011, 20:04
There's no way a greatsword is as strong as a chaos warrior. They do not need S4. Magic banner option sure. S4? No. They are normal humans wielding great weapons. Not body builders on par with Conan.

loveless
03-10-2011, 20:37
I'm guessing this will happen because GW moved OG rock lobbers to rare and they decreased the scraplauncher to a small template.

I just don't see that happening. Imperial Artillery is one of the defining features of the army - the Rock Lobba was not a defining feature of the Greenskins. I suppose that all Dwarf warmachines should be moved to rare as well?



If you're not maxing your 25% rares or spamming the same artillery then it doesn't really matter. Having it in "Rare" doesn't mean you won't take approximately the same 1-2 mortars, 1-2 cannons, and a stank. Moving it to Rare only prevents you from doing the 3 cannon, 3 mortar, dual helblaster, dual helstorm, stank army (which frankly doesn't even make a good army anyway).

If it doesn't make a good army, then why are you so worried about it? :p

I guess my thinking is, a Cannon or a Mortar isn't "rare" in an Imperial army. A Helstorm or a Hellblaster certainly is, and a Steam Tank even more so. That said, GW has to move that Steam Tank kit somehow...I honestly think it functioning as an Engineer mount might be a decent option.


It's a good trade to move Flagellants to Special (since they will generally be fielded in big expensive blocks) and all the artillery to Rare (since individual pieces don't cost much) more than a limitation.

While it may be a decent "trade" I just don't think it fits the army properly. It should be interesting to see what does happen, though.

naloth
03-10-2011, 21:07
I just don't see that happening. Imperial Artillery is one of the defining features of the army - the Rock Lobba was not a defining feature of the Greenskins. I suppose that all Dwarf warmachines should be moved to rare as well?

Lobbas have been around longer than Mortars or even most of what you're calling Imperial Artillery. It's pretty safe to call it part of a traditional Orc army.

Yes, I also believe that most of the Dwarf warmachines will be rare too. Bolt throwers probably won't be (OG weren't) and you might even be able to field them in larger quantities.



If it doesn't make a good army, then why are you so worried about it? :p

I never said I was. In fact, my guesses are primarly drawn from how the 8th books are organized. We call that supporting evidence.



I guess my thinking is, a Cannon or a Mortar isn't "rare" in an Imperial army. A Helstorm or a Hellblaster certainly is, and a Steam Tank even more so.

Many Rare choices are staples of every army so obviously being in that category doesn't restrict how often they are fielded. It only affects how many you can spam.



That said, GW has to move that Steam Tank kit somehow...I honestly think it functioning as an Engineer mount might be a decent option.

I like that idea. It would fix two issues I do see with Empire army construction. First, because there's little competition for rares you always have an open slot to devote a chunk of your Rare points to a Steam Tank. Second, because there's Hero points available many armies have been backing every mortar with an Engineer and every block of troops with a Warrior Priest. Having both come out of Heroes would force a choice between engineer directed artillery, the Steam Tank, and spamming Warrior Priests.

Korraz
03-10-2011, 21:16
Keyword "defining."
When I think "Orcs", "Rock Lobbas" isn't exactly that thing that comes to my mind

The Low King
03-10-2011, 21:28
Cannons should never be rare in a dwarf or empire army, it just doesnt make sense.

loveless
03-10-2011, 21:30
Lobbas have been around longer than Mortars or even most of what you're calling Imperial Artillery. It's pretty safe to call it part of a traditional Orc army.

"Traditional" is not the same as "defining" - the variety and abundance of war machines is often a selling point for both the Empire and the Dwarfs.


Yes, I also believe that most of the Dwarf warmachines will be rare too. Bolt throwers probably won't be (OG weren't) and you might even be able to field them in larger quantities.

I can only see this happening if the next Dwarf book makes the Engineers even more conservative than they already are. That's not to say it won't happen - clearly there are those who do expect it - it's just not a path I'd expect *shrugs*


Many Rare choices are staples of every army so obviously being in that category doesn't restrict how often they are fielded. It only affects how many you can spam.

I guess I'm looking at this from a background point of view. "Rare" implies something that is not often seen and, from my perspective, an Empire force without warmachines is rarer than one with warmachines.

I'm also not sure of which "staple" rares you're referring to - unless you're referring to game usability or list popularity.


I like that idea. It would fix two issues I do see with Empire army construction. First, because there's little competition for rares you always have an open slot to devote a chunk of your Rare points to a Steam Tank. Second, because there's Hero points available many armies have been backing every mortar with an Engineer and every block of troops with a Warrior Priest. Having both come out of Heroes would force a choice between engineer directed artillery, the Steam Tank, and spamming Warrior Priests.

The other thing to consider is that the new kit - whatever it may be - will likely build a Rare or two, with the potential for a character mount. If anything, the Rare sections have been getting a bit more populated lately. I think only the O&G book had a Special-to-Rare movement, while the TK had a character "mount" to Rare movement. I don't think anything moved "up" in the Ogre book (did some things move down?).

Controlling the game-population of Steam Tanks is an interesting prospect from GW's point of view. I'm sure they'd love to get those tiny $60 kits off the shelves, background-be-damned, but it does get awkward when a full quarter of the operational Steam Tanks show up to a 2500 point battle (or whatever the points-value needs to be).

The character choice slot provides the opportunity for 2 (or more...) but eats away at far more important options than other Rares - namely your magic defense, battle standard bearer, and support heroes. It becomes a much more difficult choice to include even one in that situation (hell, I have trouble justifying 1 half the time, but then some of my friends hate seeing the damn thing lol).

Of course, I expect more warmachines to show up, so I think Rare is going to be plenty-crowded even with moving the Steam Tank.

----

You know the worst part about all of this Empire discussion lately? After I swore off the bloody army, I'm getting dragged back to it. :shifty:

naloth
03-10-2011, 21:45
Keyword "defining."
When I think "Orcs", "Rock Lobbas" isn't exactly that thing that comes to my mind
Steam tank is what comes to my mind when you say Empire. Traditionally, though, I would suggest that Empire is defined by state troops and knightly orders. The problem is that state troops were largely ineffective prior to 8th so Empire players have gotten used to running gun lines or knights.

loveless
03-10-2011, 21:51
On the tabletop, an Empire army is an impressive sight to behold, featuring ranks of brightly uniformed warriors, resplendent cavalry and powerful war machines. Not only does an Empire army present exciting opportunities for the keen modeller and painter, but a tactical treat for the aspiring Warhammer general. An Empire army used well is a match for any force, able to unleash potent spells and staggering firepower against its enemies. Even the Empire state troops, though weak individually, can match swords with the best the foe can offer, with their superior tactics and broad variety of wargear.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=cat440023a&aId=14400002#

Emphasis mine - I'd say guns and warmachines are a pretty important aspect of the Empire.

naloth
03-10-2011, 22:05
"Traditional" is not the same as "defining" - the variety and abundance of war machines is often a selling point for both the Empire and the Dwarfs.It has become so over the last few editions but I would suggest that's largely to compensate for deficiencies that existed in those editions.



I guess I'm looking at this from a background point of view. "Rare" implies something that is not often seen and, from my perspective, an Empire force without warmachines is rarer than one with warmachines.

The importance and prominence it has on the table certainly exceeds how artillery is fielded. How many armies could boast a mortar per 30 infantry and 10 Knights? An 2k Empire list I faced last weekend had that ratio by taking 3 mortars. Fluff-wise Rare is far often enough to cover what's fielded and what how often Empire armies would have access to them. Real armies would have more battalions than artillery pieces.

Besides, I suspect you're mislead how Rare is by the few things in the Empire list that should be ultra-rare. Most Empire forces wouldn't see a Steam Tank or War Altar in their career yet they turn up pretty often (in fact one or the other most every game). Other armies Rare choices aren't that rare. Stone/River Trolls and Giants have long been a staple of OG armies yet they are Rare choices.


I don't think anything moved "up" in the Ogre book (did some things move down?).

Yes, the most relevant one. The Scraplauncher went from a large template Special to a small template Rare.

Since that have moved the stone thrower type Specials -> Rare on the last two books (making virtually all such choices a Rare now) I'm predicting it's a trend.



The character choice slot provides the opportunity for 2 (or more...) but eats away at far more important options than other Rares - namely your magic defense, battle standard bearer, and support heroes. It becomes a much more difficult choice to include even one in that situation (hell, I have trouble justifying 1 half the time, but then some of my friends hate seeing the damn thing lol).

Agreed. Money wise, Steam Tanks make better Special/Core choices.



Of course, I expect more warmachines to show up, so I think Rare is going to be plenty-crowded even with moving the Steam Tank.

I saw a picture of what could be Empire monstrous cavalry over in rumors which makes me think they are going to the other direction.

naloth
03-10-2011, 22:14
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=cat440023a&aId=14400002#

Emphasis mine - I'd say guns and warmachines are a pretty important aspect of the Empire.


Greenskin armies on the warpath often attract a following of Trolls or Giants, drawn by the smell of death or the clash of arms. These huge creatures will be at the forefront of the fighting, lending their enormous strength to the waves of greenskins all around them. In addition to these marauding monsters, greenskins utilise other such beasts in war. Some Orcs charge into battle riding war boars - wild animals they have wrestled under their control, if only temporarily. Goblins regularly ride lupine steeds, and sometimes giant arachnids, the largest of which can grow to the size of an Empire townhouse.

Much like Trolls, Giant, and Arachnids the size of townhouses are important important aspects of OG? Let's be fair. Rares are a staple of current armies and you're expected to field some of them.

Korraz
03-10-2011, 22:15
Steam tank is what comes to my mind when you say Empire. Traditionally, though, I would suggest that Empire is defined by state troops and knightly orders. The problem is that state troops were largely ineffective prior to 8th so Empire players have gotten used to running gun lines or knights.

Hence why they are rare and not 0-1.

Freman Bloodglaive
03-10-2011, 22:28
If Empire artillery became rare we'd have no use for our special slots. What would we take? A unit of Greatswords? Maybe a unit of Inner Circle Knights? Hardly enough to justify having that option.

Ogres and Orcs have lots of characterful and useful special choices. At the moment ours are our artillery. Unless they start adding halflings and ogres as special choices I can't see that changing.

DivineVisitor
03-10-2011, 22:49
There's no way a greatsword is as strong as a chaos warrior. They do not need S4. Magic banner option sure. S4? No. They are normal humans wielding great weapons. Not body builders on par with Conan.

Aren't White Lions, Executioners and Wild Riders all S4? As well as Inner Circle Knights. Surely it's not that far fetched that a Greatsword could be S4 without resorting to the worship of heathen gods. Personally i would like to see the option to upgrade them to Inner Circle similar to the Knights.

naloth
03-10-2011, 22:57
If Empire artillery became rare we'd have no use for our special slots. What would we take? A unit of Greatswords? Maybe a unit of Inner Circle Knights? Hardly enough to justify having that option.

Based on the three prior books GW will give you more special options and they will try to make your existing core choices more appealing. Having 8 point Greatswords, unlimited size 8 point Flagellent regiments, and IC or a new monsterous cavalry knight unit would give you a reason to drop up to half your points on specials.

Gork or Possibly Mork
03-10-2011, 22:59
I wouldn't mind having some halflings as gnoblars in my OK army and im sure new halfling models and having that choice would make some empire players happy.

Halflings for the win!

IcedCrow
04-10-2011, 03:47
Aren't White Lions, Executioners and Wild Riders all S4? As well as Inner Circle Knights. Surely it's not that far fetched that a Greatsword could be S4 without resorting to the worship of heathen gods. Personally i would like to see the option to upgrade them to Inner Circle similar to the Knights.

If greatswords could be upgraded to inner circle, you'd never have outer circle. You might as well just slap S4 on them then instead of the charade of upgrading them.

Here's to hoping that that does not happen.

m1acca1551
04-10-2011, 04:16
Apart from some points increases and decreases i'd like to see;

Mark of the gods setup for warrior priests in a similar vein as WoC
Generals and Elector counts to be seperated by different rules;
Drill Inspection (allow 1 unit in the army to be +1 M)
Born to lead (the unit the general is in is fearless in the presence of the General)
Chosen men (the Elector has chosen a bunch of men for there valour, +1 to a chosen stat) something along those lines as done with orders from IG.

Knightly Orders make a difference, Reiksguard knights +5 pts on top of inner circle WS 5, S4, T4 etc there meant to be the toughest there stats should reflect this.

Foot knights need a come back, use Knights stats but wearing fullplate and shield, can choose what weapon to wield either GW/HW etc (can make only if Emperor is leading)

Great swords need a ST buff to 4, im sorry for people out there who say no, but they are veterans and should be slightly stonger that basic infantry. (call it wish listing, but it will make them a viable choice again)

I'm open to war altar and an imperial dwarf regiment would be nice for fluff if only put in the rare choice and no characters.

What i do not want to see, is big uber gun, demi gryphon knights etc they have enough stuff as is, plus demi gryphon knights are a carbon copy of brettonian pegasus knights. An uber gun is a copy of OK big gun.

m1acca1551
04-10-2011, 04:21
Im afraid you cant use the white lions as a argument, they are only good due to speed of asuryan... if thats taken of them there not as good as people think.

Great swords are definatley stronger than an average human, and wielding a great sword all day, will make you fairly conan-esque. Maybe st4 on the charge??? yeah they strike last, but get a bit of momentum behind you... and well hey orcs get plus 1ST for choppers... just saying is all

Rosstifer
04-10-2011, 04:34
Make the Volley Gun better so I don't see the same old Cannon, Cannon, Mortar, Mortar, Rocket Battery all the time.

I agree with the missile troops a touch cheaper, Steam Tank needs to be harder to kill with magic, easier to kill with mundane weaponry.

Cannons should be slightly more expensive, make them a little less no brainer, I've never seen an Empire army without them, that really shouldn't be the case.

Dr Death
04-10-2011, 11:35
I'm in complete agreement with Loveless to be honest- sticking all Empire Artillery up into rare is a ridiculous idea. Troop type is not synonymous with rarity and so while some races may find inferior war machines in the rare category, the empire (and dwarves) should remain having effective artillery in plentiful supply (personally i think the Elf Bolt Throwers should also drop back down into special too and they should stick Black/Phoenix Guard into rare instead). Whether Flagellants should be dropped down into special i'm half and half about- i do think the 30 model limit to them is a bit strange- in 2000pt or there about games, fair enough- that's all you could really afford anyway, but with larger and larger games becoming more popular it's a relic. If anything i'd bring back the 0-1 unit limit but give it no maximum model limit- that would better reflect how Flagellants are not really troops that can be ordered about as part of a battleplan but simply a bunch of nutters who are 'herded' by generals.

Dr Death

SteelTitan
04-10-2011, 12:44
It seems some people have been on the receiving end of warmachines a bit too often. Warmachines have always been one of the most characteristic things in an Empire army.

Nerfing them (small S2 templates?) or putting all of them in rare would not only screw this up but also the internal balance of the army. You can't judge the 'overpoweredness' of Empire warmachines without looking at the rest of the army.

If you nerf our WMs, how will anything compensate for our WS3, S3, T3, I3, 5+Sv models?

Okuto
04-10-2011, 13:02
S2 for mortars is insane.....

A human punching me in the face stronger than shrapnel from an explosion, people ought to be happy it's S3, I'm thinking it should of been S4.

IcedCrow
04-10-2011, 13:17
S3 mortars do not bother me a bit. S2 is far too weak in my opinion. S4 is a bit over the top due to the size of the template IMO.

Greatswords as unviable right now is also a joke. With the guns and warmachine support that the empire has, they do not need S6 troopers running around deathstarred up on top of that. There is no balance in that, only sweet visions of winning trophies easier.

Greatswords are perfectly viable. They are S5, stubborn bunkers. They need magical banner support. I think that's about it. Inner Circle Knights needed to go away a long time ago IMO, however they having lances are only S6 on the charge, not S6 all the time. making Greatswords S6 all the time makes them a no-brainer always-take option... which is unbalanced. And as such, should be shot dead before it even gets mentioned.

Making all warmachines rare is also extreme. I agree with the sentiment that empire has always been an army that has a strong warmachine presence. They win battles based on their technology, not on their brute power. I think the extreme war machines do need to stay rare, but things like cannons and mortars are fine at special.

I do think the steam tank needs to be raised in points and if it's supposed to be rare in the fluff, then it needs restricted. Fighting a motor pool of steam tanks gets old quick...

loveless
04-10-2011, 14:24
It has become so over the last few editions but I would suggest that's largely to compensate for deficiencies that existed in those editions.

Given that we've only had 7 full editions, the "last few" can quickly become the majority.


The importance and prominence it has on the table certainly exceeds how artillery is fielded. How many armies could boast a mortar per 30 infantry and 10 Knights?

Ever heard of Nuln?


An 2k Empire list I faced last weekend had that ratio by taking 3 mortars. Fluff-wise Rare is far often enough to cover what's fielded and what how often Empire armies would have access to them. Real armies would have more battalions than artillery pieces.

Well, that's your opinion - the Empire has enough variety to make any combination of its troops a "real army" thank you very much :p


Besides, I suspect you're mislead how Rare is by the few things in the Empire list that should be ultra-rare. Most Empire forces wouldn't see a Steam Tank or War Altar in their career yet they turn up pretty often (in fact one or the other most every game). Other armies Rare choices aren't that rare. Stone/River Trolls and Giants have long been a staple of OG armies yet they are Rare choices.

I think you're underestimating how common cannons and warmachines are in Imperial armies.



Yes, the most relevant one. The Scraplauncher went from a large template Special to a small template Rare.

Since that have moved the stone thrower type Specials -> Rare on the last two books (making virtually all such choices a Rare now) I'm predicting it's a trend.

Huh, I thought it was always rare. Must have only been "rare" on the table due to a person needing a Master's in Engineering to assemble the metal version.

That said, the Scraplauncher is a Gnoblar unit, which were all played down substantially in the latest Ogre book. The focus shifted more towards beasts and ogre blocks - I'd be willing to argue that the Scraplauncher change was to encourage players to pick up Mournfangs and Finecast versions of Maneaters to fill their special slots.



I saw a picture of what could be Empire monstrous cavalry over in rumors which makes me think they are going to the other direction.

Link? Unless you're just talking about Demigryphs.

Also, most armies have been getting Large Box + Cavalry lately (though it's only been 2 of 3 books, but that seems to be enough for you judging by your other comments :p)

Sphinx + Snake Surfers
Thundertusk/Stonehorn + Mournfangs

There's no reason you couldn't have Demigryphs + large gunpowder unit (be it war wagon, a Nuln ridicu-huge cannon, or something else entirely).

naloth
04-10-2011, 16:42
Given that we've only had 7 full editions, the "last few" can quickly become the majority.

I wouldn't call the previous and current army books a "majority" representation for an army that's been around all 8 editions. Just going back to the 5th edition book (which was also the last time percentages were used) you have a category that's 0-25% for War Machines that includes the Mortar, Cannon, Helblaster, and the Steam Tank. I'm guessing we're going back to that sort of arrangement where Empire rares will be mostly War Machines.



Ever heard of Nuln?

Sure, it's the one Empire faction that's heavy on artillery and even they couldn't have more than one artillery piece per block of infantry troops (per 6th edition army book). A quick flip through of the other 6th faction army lists have:
The Emperor's Guard: max 4 artillery (all special).
Sigmarite Army: max 2 (all rare).
Marienburger: max 4 (all special).
Cult of Ulric: none.
Crusader Army: none.

Given that the current army book allows you to field up to 9 artillery pieces in 2000 points - double anything but Nuln could ever pull off and even then you would have 400+ points as 8 infantry blocks - it seems that artillery is overly abundant. Fluff-wise infantry block should outnumber artillery pieces even for Nuln. Half of the factions are either not using artillery at all or have it as rare.



I think you're underestimating how common cannons and warmachines are in Imperial armies.

No, I'm remembering how Empire couldn't spam artillery and engineers in 6th & 7th edition like they can in 8th edition. A move to rare will allow you to field similar amounts as 6th/7th, reduce the number of duplicate choices you can take (are you spamming 3 of the same now?), make all artillery compete against each other for points (minor concern as you can still field 5ish war machines for 2k), and yet not inconvenience most players.



Link? Unless you're just talking about Demigryphs.

Yes, I just couldn't recall what they were called. I haven't heard what else Empire might be getting but those + a big centerpiece is the trend.

EDIT:
What's the real worry here? It's not like you're losing. Personally I feel a bit cheesy maxing on mortars and backing them with a steam tank. It's certainly not necessary any more. Last time I fielded 2 blocks of Halberdiers (60ish each) w/detachments and supported them with a lvl 4 Shadow and lvl 2 Beast wizard. I could generally count on one of the two signature spells (giving them a 3+ to hit, or S5 T4) and perhaps another buff. In 4 games they were reasonably competitive against everything including a deathstar they held up for the other unit to flank and grind.

The Low King
04-10-2011, 17:46
the problem with your argument against warmachines is that you assume that an empire gunline is the entirety of an army. Most empire armies would easily be able to select 9 warmachines out of their army to assist a small force of troops (ie, 2000 points).

Also, have you seen that picture in the BRB of chaos attacking that city? how many warmachines can you see?

AlphariusOmegon20
04-10-2011, 18:03
Sure, it's the one Empire faction that's heavy on artillery and even they couldn't have more than one artillery piece per block of infantry troops (per 6th edition army book). A quick flip through of the other 6th faction army lists have:
The Emperor's Guard: max 4 artillery (all special).
Sigmarite Army: max 2 (all rare).
Marienburger: max 4 (all special).
Cult of Ulric: none.
Crusader Army: none.

Given that the current army book allows you to field up to 9 artillery pieces in 2000 points - double anything but Nuln could ever pull off and even then you would have 400+ points as 8 infantry blocks - it seems that artillery is overly abundant. Fluff-wise infantry block should outnumber artillery pieces even for Nuln. Half of the factions are either not using artillery at all or have it as rare.


You'll also note that for Middenheim/Ulric armies, that has been retconned, per the Heraldry book, pg 23.


"Some war machines are permanently fixed into the defensive walls of Middenheim, but Elector Count Boris Todbringer maintains a formidable artillery train as well."

naloth
04-10-2011, 18:18
Most empire armies would easily be able to select 9 warmachines out of their army to assist a small force of troops (ie, 2000 points).

8th edition is the first time you could conceivably field this type of force at 2k. Based on what GW has done with other armies my guess is that it's only because you're using a 7th edition book and that it will be fixed.

I suppose it depends on the direction they want to take the army. I'm guessing it will be less gun line and more infantry / cavalry focused since that seems to be the theme of 8th.


You'll also note that for Middenheim/Ulric armies, that has been retconned, per the Heraldry book, pg 23.
That's interesting. I don't own and haven't read the Heraldry book.

loveless
04-10-2011, 18:27
You know what could be interesting...

Artillery batteries. 1-3 Cannons/Mortars/Helstorms/Hellblasters (Cannon battery, Mortar battery, etc.) as a single choice :p There you go then, 9 of each Special and 6 of each Rare in one standard list :D

With all the bloody monsters showing up lately, I can see Karl Franz requisitioning higher quantities of gunpowdery death from the Engineer's Guild and Gunnery School.

I'd actually love to see more warmachines and upgrades for handgunners and outriders, but that's probably going to be Warhammer Forge territory.

Why haven't we equipped Imperial knights with (repeater) handguns yet or given plate armor to outriders?

naloth
04-10-2011, 18:42
Artillery batteries. 1-3 Cannons/Mortars/Helstorms/Hellblasters (Cannon battery, Mortar battery, etc.) as a single choice :p

Sounds interesting but I'm not sure it would work well. It would create very valuable targets for war machine hunters and force artillery pieces to waste shots. A canon that fires on a chariot or a mortar on a unit of fast cavalry often won't need a 2nd or 3rd shot to kill it.

loveless
04-10-2011, 18:43
That line through the :D was just me being ridiculous, naloth - don't read too much into it :p

(though it could be useful in Storm of Magic)

naloth
04-10-2011, 18:47
That line through the :D was just me being ridiculous, naloth - don't read too much into it :p


Given your other suggestions (full plate for everyone, machine guns for all) I didn't think you were very serious.

It's a playable suggestion but it would be much better for Dwarfs (Dwarves?) since Empire war machine crews die to about any hunters while a large Dwarf crew is pretty fighty.

sulla
04-10-2011, 18:53
That's rather ridiculous. A morther shell deserves at least the strength of debris flung around by a falling rock....Asw a balance issue, yes. There are two choices; either keep the same strength and price accordingly. A stone thrower is around 90pts on the newer books, so you would be looking at around 120-150pts for a large template and armour piercing in 8th edition.

Or large template s2 for less cost than a stone thrower.

Or did you think Empire should get a discount on artillery in 8th?

Korraz
04-10-2011, 18:57
I never said that. I just said that S2 Mortars are pretty stupid. Personally, I would welcome a small price increase.
A small one. Keep in mind how cheap things get in 8th Edition.

loveless
04-10-2011, 19:02
S2 Mortars would never see the field. I'd imagine everyone would just switch over to Helstorms or utilize the points in a better way.

I like the Helstorm better anyway, but I'm quite mad.

Okuto
04-10-2011, 19:04
I think the artillery prices are ok as is, I'm not for them being rare though(what do we use our specials for then? Goldswords?!) as this hurts the army identity(artillery is why I played empire in the first place, I play my Brets when I want a combat human army) and it hurts GW money-wise(I'm sure GW would want us to buy all the new fancy war machines they crap out)

I'm not for a S2 mortar temp, it's as silly as the old Cathayan longsword or halberds that grant you +2I....S3 is fine, no reason why flying shrapnel should be weaker than a gobbo biting your ankles at S3.

m1acca1551
05-10-2011, 02:40
How about specialty rules for the different provinces??

I'll use Nuln as an example. As i think we are all expecting, arty prices are going to go up, i think that it is only fair.

NULN;
Choosing and army of nuln allows significant decrease in points to those arty pieces, to there cuurent points cost instead of the expected higher points cost. Engineers also become cheaper.
STIRLAND;
Cheaper spearmen and archers...

I know the haters will hate, but it does allow for that unique flair between the provinces. Allows fluff players to have an army and not loose out on the massed arty that everyone uses now... and yes there will be people that will only ever play an nuln gunline but it doesnt mean you have to

DivineVisitor
05-10-2011, 09:41
I wouldn't mind them downplaying War Machines in the next book if we were compensated by better rules/stats for our 'professional' soldiers. Currently we get told were average but really the only things with worse stats than humans are goblins, gnoblars, skinks and skaven slaves.

I wouldn't mind seeing some form of halberdiers/spearmen as skilled as our swordsmen or perhaps some form of tactic rules/improved detachment system.

Gazak Blacktoof
05-10-2011, 09:51
The detachment rules are actually rather good (though hopefully they can condense them) both for creating throw away units and for increasing damage. The only problem I have with them is that they eat into the number of deployments you make which means you can be out deployed more easily. What I loved about my greenskins was the option to take a few fast cavalry units to delay deployment, they didn't cause panic either so were ideal for similar roles to detachments.

I don't want to see stat upgrades for humans. In my opinion that's the very worst thing they could do. Core empire infantry needs to remain predominantly Ws, Bs, S, T and I 3. Veteran options (like inner circle) as special choices would be OK, but would rather eat into the role of the greatswords.

Haravikk
05-10-2011, 11:38
I'm hoping for less new stuff, and more specialisation in the units, as the list is a bit muddy at the moment IMO, with a bunch of choices that have become a bit underwhelming while war machines dominate.

It'd be nice if there were some mechanic that encouraged certain types of themed or balanced lists, such as particular unit types having rules that help them work together that little bit better.

Chaos Undecided
05-10-2011, 12:26
If they were to remove the unit size limit on Flagellants as some have suggested I think they should also remove the option to take one unit as core with a warrior priest or at least make it so this unit doesnt count towards core limits otherwise I dont see people enjoying facing units of 100 odd models that just wont die unless you kill every single model.

Increasing the point values on the war machines is fair enough.

Regarding the war altar I think this needs sorting as a present its a bit like the ford popemobile the way it keeps turning up Volkmar should be the only one able to ride the true War Altar with the Jade Griffon but they could include lesser altars either as rare/mount choice that function much like a chaos warshrine or corpse cart with bound spells or innate abilities

IcedCrow
05-10-2011, 12:35
Oh yes. A death star of flagellants. Now that would be the perfect picture of fun and balance.

Okuto
05-10-2011, 16:29
Yeah I'm leaning more with limits....one of the big probs I have with this edition is 50-100 man units.....pretty out of hand.....and we wouldn't be so tempted to take the mandatory Lvl 4

No-One
05-10-2011, 16:31
so does anyone know for sure if its been confirmed that demigryph knights are going to be a go for the next book?

I really am looking forward to the idea, it seems like they would be really cool

Okuto
05-10-2011, 16:36
It seems pretty confirmed as it stands, also keeps in line with GW's fetish of OMG big monster kit madness.

I'll most likely get one to use as a Peg. Captain

loveless
05-10-2011, 16:40
It seems pretty confirmed as it stands, also keeps in line with GW's fetish of OMG big monster kit madness.

Well, the Demigryphs wouldn't be the OMG big kit :p They'd just be monstrous cavalry - potentially on 50mm bases as opposed to chariot bases, given that Reaper is supposed to be quite large for his breed and I think he's on a chariot base.


I'll most likely get one to use as a Peg. Captain

That might look a bit strange given that Demigryphs don't have wings :p

Okuto
05-10-2011, 16:45
Oh I thought they did have wings.....

Damn I wanted a new peg captian

oh well, at least we're getting some big old war alter dodad

sulla
05-10-2011, 17:50
Well, the Demigryphs wouldn't be the OMG big kit :p They'd just be monstrous cavalry - potentially on 50mm bases as opposed to chariot bases, given that Reaper is supposed to be quite large for his breed and I think he's on a chariot base.

:pBear in mind that snake riders are on chariot bases. I think it's extremely likely that we will see most future monstrous cav on chariot bases.

loveless
05-10-2011, 18:30
I never did understand why the snake riders were on chariot bases. They have one of (if not the) worst model:base ratios in WHFB.