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View Full Version : The international statute of secrecy: have GW gone too far with this one?



Spiney Norman
02-10-2011, 21:48
So this saturday - dreadfleet launch day, we've been building up to this for weeks, pre-orders, pics on the net, demonstration games at Gamesday UK.

We arrive at the store for a morning of fun, frolics and games of Dreadfleet.

Only to discover that the Store Manager had instructions from head office not to open their store copy of the game before saturday morning.

So we have one staff member manning the till, and two staff members frantically trying to assemble new miniatures they haven't built before.

So by lunch time we are starting our first game of dreadfleet, with unpainted models. Other than those who pre-ordered their copies of the game to the store they sold 6 out of 24 copies of the game, most of the people who turned up to check the game out in the morning left long before the models got finished.

Was this catastrophic idiocy repeated in other stores too, or was this just a case of one manager taking his instructions too literally?

Launch = fail.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
02-10-2011, 21:58
Thats really bad considering this is supposed to be one of thier whizz bang new releases to bring in the cash, did any of the other stores - if people were at GW stores this sat - act the same?.
You would have thought that GW would want to showcase the models as fully built and painted

jack da greenskin
02-10-2011, 21:59
So this saturday - dreadfleet launch day, we've been building up to this for weeks, pre-orders, pics on the net, demonstration games at Gamesday UK.

We arrive at the store for a morning of fun, frolics and games of Dreadfleet.

Only to discover that the Store Manager had instructions from head office not to open their store copy of the game before saturday morning.

So we have one staff member manning the till, and two staff members frantically trying to assemble new miniatures they haven't built before.

So by lunch time we are starting our first game of dreadfleet, with unpainted models. Other than those who pre-ordered their copies of the game to the store they sold 6 out of 24 copies of the game, most of the people who turned up to check the game out in the morning left long before the models got finished.

Was this catastrophic idiocy repeated in other stores too, or was this just a case of one manager taking his instructions too literally?

Launch = fail.

Same in my local, sold 2 copies all day or something ridiculous like that. (GW store)

2ndCompanyVeterans
02-10-2011, 21:59
Sad day man a real sad day, My only thought on this is that it is sold as a board game not table top battles, Could it be they were afaird that if you played a game that then you might have had your fix for a week or so and worry this might damage sales. As a warhammer release I think they should give it all the steam they can! I like warhammer but i can't help but think an oppourtunity here to recruit a few more players has been lost.

herbtarkel
02-10-2011, 22:02
Seems like a lot of anecdotal, so not real data or anything, evidence is pointing to thin sales. Certainly nothing at all like Space Hulk.

Well, I guess we can all relax then, and not worry about rushing around to get one!

Tay051173096
02-10-2011, 22:04
Strange...

Went into the bristol GW and the staffer were dressed as pirates and say piraty thing, I did not notice if the fleets were painted or not...

Surely yo wanted to see assembled and painted fleets to showcase?

Inquisitor Kallus
02-10-2011, 22:17
It also has to do with effort vs. reward. There are pics online and I imagine in the books as well as I expect the inevitable WD painting guide.

Building and painting takes time which could be better put to use doing other more important things than a one-off game. This is also due to smaller numbers of staff. It could also be possible that they wanted to capture the 'excitement' of opening the box.

I admit though its probably not the best thing to open it on the day then rush building them.... Do they have 'plug in' pieces or does it all have to be glued?

ForgottenLore
02-10-2011, 22:22
Well, my FLGS got 2 boxes in, and as far as I know they are both still on the shelves and no one has so much as expressed an interest in them.

FabricatorGeneralMike
02-10-2011, 22:25
Seems like the Manager took his orders a little to far. If I was the manager I would of opened the box after friday's closing, assembled the models and lernt the rules with the guy who is going to be running the demo games. I would of either painted them at the store or took them home to paint, again having a helping hand is a god send here.

On Saturday, I would of had myself(manager) as the floater in the store answering questions and customer service and work like that, had one guy running demo games, and if there was a large crowd one guy working the till. Rather easier I think then opening the box on saturday morning, having two guys trying to assemble stuff, run games, answer questions/Customer Service, is just fail and the sales show it. It seems like he failed to generate hype and pitch the game.

Then again if it's a one man store, you're boned. :skull:

Shamutanti
02-10-2011, 23:38
lernt the rules with the guy who is going to be running the demo games.


Stores were instructed to not run demos; mainly because they don't have any store copies and were told not to have any. The box would be unveiled and games would be played in some location of the shop (if anyone bought one/brought one along). There was from what I can gather a pretty big emphasis on the staff all purchasing one though and then making use of it for store use.

koran
02-10-2011, 23:49
Well my local was running demo's with one of the staff members copies. I will say now that I have no interest in the game (before or after seeing it played) but there is no doubt in my mind that having the models out and the game being played was the right choice.

Shamutanti
03-10-2011, 00:38
Well my local was running demo's with one of the staff members copies. I will say now that I have no interest in the game (before or after seeing it played) but there is no doubt in my mind that having the models out and the game being played was the right choice.

Oh I agree entirely - demoing the game should of been a no brainer, but from what I know of what went on behind the scenes, there was pretty active encouragement NOT to demo the game beyond anything bar Games Day (thus why it seemed staff were as out of the loop as much as us!)

herbtarkel
03-10-2011, 02:17
Stores were instructed to not run demos; mainly because they don't have any store copies and were told not to have any. The box would be unveiled and games would be played in some location of the shop (if anyone bought one/brought one along). There was from what I can gather a pretty big emphasis on the staff all purchasing one though and then making use of it for store use.

WHAT?!? No, you have to be kidding. Really? Asking minimum wage staff at a publicly traded company to buy a game and then let their own copy be used for a demo? WHAT?!? I know I already said that. But that's like ... ridiculous.

MagosHereticus
03-10-2011, 03:00
i might have bought one if it were at the price of 70 pounds (or there abouts, which the rest of the world enjoys) but not the $200 aussie dollars that they are trying to force on us here

(token grumpy australian)

WeeDawgNYC
03-10-2011, 05:09
Same here, NO DEMO was what I was told. & when asked "so how would I know how it plays before I decide to drop a Benji on one" then they sent me a link. "Heres how to play"..lol (Didnt even work)..lol wtf???

Bleeding Through
03-10-2011, 09:49
My local had a demo copy. Not staff one. They only had there delivery on friday. Bar one small child zero interest in the store

Spiney Norman
03-10-2011, 10:40
Yeah, I suspected that sales had not been quite what they were expecting when the small bookstore in town that has a tiny GW section recieved 6 copies of the game (and to date has sold none of them).

Lets just say that anyone who bought multiple copies in the hopes of flogging them on ebay for a profit are probably holding an oven-ready turkey.

ihavetoomuchminis
03-10-2011, 10:41
It was a fail in all the stores of my location (4 stores). Plenty of boxes in the shelves, poor sales all day.

It seems quite logical to me, given the ridiculous secrecy policy.



Lets just say that anyone who bought multiple copies in the hopes of flogging them on ebay for a profit are probably holding an oven-ready turkey.

That makes me a happy panda

eldargal
03-10-2011, 10:47
Hm, our nearest GW stores were running demos with what I assume were store copies. Overzealous managers on one side or rule-breakers on the other?

I have no idea how Dreadfleet is selling, but I would caution against jumping to conclusions this early on. There were people claiming Space Hulk was a flop quite early on, too. In fact there are still people who claim it was a flop despite GW selling out within a month.

Although given how little we know about it I wouldn't be at all if sales were slow, and then pick up/slow more depending how fun/bad the game is.

BigRob
03-10-2011, 11:05
I was told no store copy and no demo games/cabanit miniatures because of the limited run and in case anyone asked after it had sold out if they could buy one (since they would be told no). I'd kind of given up with Dreadfleet but maybe it will still be around at christmas in this case.

Re-sellers might be bitten in the ass by this but I doubt it. Chances are it will sell for around the £100-£150 mark in a year or two. The ones I don't see benefiting are the bits people, why charge £70 for one ship although I can see the seascape mat being popular.

Darnok
03-10-2011, 11:08
When I checked my box contents for broken parts - luckily there were none - the manager came over to watch. He actually hadn't seen the contents for himself so. That was 1 p.m. on release day!

I really hope GW changes its course again, as this "secrecy" is a safe way to alienate customers.

Grimtuff
03-10-2011, 11:09
I have no idea how Dreadfleet is selling, but I would caution against jumping to conclusions this early on. There were people claiming Space Hulk was a flop quite early on, too. In fact there are still people who claim it was a flop despite GW selling out within a month.

It was, from one perspective. New customers.

The sheer amount of random people I saw come in the store asking abut SH after reading about it's re-release on more "mainstream" gaming/geek sites (SFX, Boardgamegeek etc.) and this was potentially the catalyst that would bring them back into wargaming, only to be told it is sold out everywhere as it was limited edition.

Cue disappointed potential customer walking off, never to be seen again. Rinse, repeat. Due to GW's blackout of news if you weren't "in the loop" so to speak at the time of it's release, you were screwed.

Grimmeth
03-10-2011, 11:14
I think the big problem with Dreadfleet's sales is that GW pushed and pushed that it would be limited and to order now otherwise it'll be completely gone (my local GW was told they were having no copies sent to them on release day, until about a day before the delivery when it was raised to 16).
Therefore people who wanted it pre-ordered it, people who didn't have decided not to bother, I'd imagine there are (comparitively) very few people sitting on the fence at this point.

blongbling
03-10-2011, 11:19
I think there are some confusion on their instructions and it was taken literally. For a store manager to not have seen the contents by 1pm on launch day is madness. I know plenty of store managers who stayed up from the firday night, painting and assembling the sets ready for Saturday.

The idea was clearly to force people into the store on launch day to see the game and then get involved in the store activities. Appears to have back fired a little bit though when your staff don't appear to have come out to bat in the right way for it to be a success

Erazmus_M_Wattle
03-10-2011, 11:25
I feel this is the kind of Descision well see a lot more of. It's to be expected when the CEO used to run Britains biggest high street drug store and isn't a hobbyist.

Not having the fleets painted with demo games running from the moment the doors open sounds to me like one of the most short sighted moves to date. There have been a few. What are they thinking?

shelfunit.
03-10-2011, 13:16
In fact there are still people who claim it was a flop despite GW selling out within a month.


GW may have emptied their own stores/stockroomss of it, but I saw copies in several LGS's over a year after release.

eldargal
03-10-2011, 13:18
That is certainly a valid criticism*, but not what I was referring to. By flop I mean't in terms of sales, and they sold out quite quickly.


*By which I mean I really do agree they should have some entry boardgames, like Hero Quest, available to help recruit people that otherwise miss their products entirely. Space Hulk would have been ideal I would have thought.


It was, from one perspective. New customers.

The sheer amount of random people I saw come in the store asking abut SH after reading about it's re-release on more "mainstream" gaming/geek sites (SFX, Boardgamegeek etc.) and this was potentially the catalyst that would bring them back into wargaming, only to be told it is sold out everywhere as it was limited edition.

Cue disappointed potential customer walking off, never to be seen again. Rinse, repeat. Due to GW's blackout of news if you weren't "in the loop" so to speak at the time of it's release, you were screwed.

mrtn
03-10-2011, 13:19
WHAT?!? No, you have to be kidding. Really? Asking minimum wage staff at a publicly traded company to buy a game and then let their own copy be used for a demo? WHAT?!? I know I already said that. But that's like ... ridiculous.

"Yes, you did work fifteen hours a day in the mine, but you also bought canned beans from the company store, so actually, you owe us money." :eyebrows:

I pity the people working in those conditions, and hope they get a new job as fast as possible. I hear Satan give you a good contract...

ehlijen
03-10-2011, 14:40
The thing is: Dreadfleet is not a GW core game, nor even a similar kind of product. I can fully see why they'd not want to take up store space and staff time with showing it off when those tables could be used to get more people into WHFB and 40k and LotR.

It was not the best move to sell dreadfleet, and I guess they underestimated just how badly the blackout can backfire, but that's not what GW sees the stores being for.

It's a dumb thing to do, but it's what fits the goals they set for their stores. Sort of. Barely. OK, it's just dumb, but I can see how it made sense on some powerpoint slide somewhere, so I'll blame microsoft :P

SunTzu
03-10-2011, 14:48
Dreadfleet will sell out. I don't have any interest in it all personally (though I expected to have), but I don't think there's any doubt it'll be sold out inside a month.

They've already had two weeks worth of the daily newsletter and an entire issue of the magazine devoted to selling it, plus their shop staff have been instructed to sell at all costs (the staffer in my local shop even going so far as to grossly exaggerate about how much it's likely to yield on eBay in an attempt to get people to buy, though I doubt that was an instruction he received from on high... implication, possibly...). Plus it's a one-off limited edition new game from GW. It would have to be spectacularly bad not to sell out.

That being the case... maybe they figured, hey, y'know what, people who want it will buy it, and they'll play it at home. Not much point getting shop staff to spend time painting all the shops and running loads of intro games when it's going to sell out anyway. It's just a waste of company time and money (whereas of course staffer's personal time and money is a free resource :shifty:).

If that supposition holds true then while it's a cold-blooded decision, it's quite hard to argue with. My local GW has sold 12 out of 15 boxes I think, according to the store's Facebook page anyway. The rest will probably be gone by next weekend, and certainly by the end of the month. Why bother encouraging the staffer to spend time getting people excited about it when within a few days he won't have any boxes left to sell to them, even if they decide they want it?

eron12
03-10-2011, 15:17
I know plenty of store managers who stayed up from the firday night, painting and assembling the sets ready for Saturday.

Out of idle curiousity, how many store managers do you personally know, and with how many did you get a chance to discuss what they did on a friday night by the next sunday?

This may be a product of my being in the United States where we don't have a GW store every couple miles, but I only know one game store manager (non GW of course), wand while I know what he did early on friday night (having gone to the store) I have no idea what even one person did after it closed.


Dreadfleet will sell out. I don't have any interest in it all personally (though I expected to have), but I don't think there's any doubt it'll be sold out inside a month.

They've already had two weeks worth of the daily newsletter and an entire issue of the magazine devoted to selling it, plus their shop staff have been instructed to sell at all costs (the staffer in my local shop even going so far as to grossly exaggerate about how much it's likely to yield on eBay in an attempt to get people to buy, though I doubt that was an instruction he received from on high... implication, possibly...). Plus it's a one-off limited edition new game from GW. It would have to be spectacularly bad not to sell out.

That being the case... maybe they figured, hey, y'know what, people who want it will buy it, and they'll play it at home. Not much point getting shop staff to spend time painting all the shops and running loads of intro games when it's going to sell out anyway. It's just a waste of company time and money (whereas of course staffer's personal time and money is a free resource :shifty:).

If that supposition holds true then while it's a cold-blooded decision, it's quite hard to argue with. My local GW has sold 12 out of 15 boxes I think, according to the store's Facebook page anyway. The rest will probably be gone by next weekend, and certainly by the end of the month. Why bother encouraging the staffer to spend time getting people excited about it when within a few days he won't have any boxes left to sell to them, even if they decide they want it?

This makes a lot of sense. Display minis for core games cost GW very little, as more will be made, so it's just parts and labor. Sacrificing a Dreadfleet copy removes the profit from that box, since there is only a limited number.

Brother Loki
03-10-2011, 16:36
Blongbling probably knows quite a few GW store managers. He used to be one of their senior sales managers. ;)

I'm sure they'll be all sold out by Christmas, which is what counts.

Ravenous
03-10-2011, 17:26
I feel this is the kind of Descision well see a lot more of. It's to be expected when the CEO used to run Britains biggest high street drug store and isn't a hobbyist.

Not having the fleets painted with demo games running from the moment the doors open sounds to me like one of the most short sighted moves to date. There have been a few. What are they thinking?

Nah its just bad managers that arent using their heads, Its not realistic to expect everything to be put together and painted in 1 day, maybe they should have taken the initiative and got it done.

The GW I go to the manager bought a copy from a LGS, since all the GW stuff comes in on wednesdays for comic shops and they dont have to abide by GWs silly release restrictions, he got demo games in, an alot of it painted on his own time.

Pacorko
03-10-2011, 17:57
Lets just say that anyone who bought multiple copies in the hopes of flogging them on ebay for a profit are probably holding an oven-ready turkey.

That's why I love junkbond speculators... such idiotic cocepts they use to try and make a quick buck.

I have pre-order 3 copies (one's a gift and two are for me, as I will play with "small flleets", dammit!), never thinking about "oh, I'll hold to this one and see the prices sky-rocket" because after all, it not gold... even when GW seem to think otherwise and lo and behold... gold has actually gone down in price in my country. :p

Poor silly sillies who thought this was quite the money-maker. Poor MKT "specialists" who will be canned for ruining what would have been a great launch event with stupid policies, dingy selling tactics to inflate initial demand ("staff buy one and use it for demos"), and/or not clear enough info as to how handle the damned launch with FUNCTIONAL minis and some knowledge of the rules come morn.

Oh, well... idiots are always likely to pay a high price for just about anything.

Other than that, the game looks fun and the minis ridiculously OTT, everything I expected them to be and quite in accordance with the old big-box games GW used to put out. So, I really could not ask for much more else. If the launch failed and the game doesn't sell out in record time, bummer for them. I'll still get my copies and merrily make my way home to pop open and paint mine, and ship out the gift one. :D

yabbadabba
03-10-2011, 18:09
Appears to have back fired a little bit though when your staff don't appear to have come out to bat in the right way for it to be a success For this read LotR as well :(. I am certain this is not the first time GW has sold a new game without demo copies and expected it to sell - can you remember which one as it has slipped my mind? It certainly wouldn't have been the first time GW asked its staff to get a new release painted up in secret. Anyway I got tired of saying in meetings "We tried that before and it didn't work - we will need to review it and come up with something more effective" only to meet the wall of corporate compliance or long term memory loss. And of course I-told-you-so doesn't fit the new corporate culture.


Nah its just bad managers that arent using their heads, Its not realistic to expect everything to be put together and painted in 1 day, maybe they should have taken the initiative and got it done. I reckon this is not unusual at all these days although on GWs news page they mention the boys at Birmingham staying up all night to paint minis for the day.

Pacorko
03-10-2011, 18:17
I reckon this is not unusual at all these days although on GWs news page they mention the boys at Birmingham staying up all night to paint minis for the day.

Hey! Fantastic way to cut costs: sell them the copies they'll need to do the demos and let them put unpaid extra hours...

Really have to say, yabbadabba, this is not worth mentioning for it is an embarrassing look at the "new GW corporate mindset", me thinks.

Bravo for the lads and the initiative/loyalty show, but it's just plain wrong to expect everyone to act like that on such stupid expectations by high level management.

yabbadabba
03-10-2011, 18:24
Hey! Fantastic way to cut costs: sell them the copies they'll need to do the demos and let them put unpaid extra hours... Well it might have been their own initiative not GWs orders. In which case its nothing to do with GW.

Really have to say, yabbadabba, this is not worth mentioning for it is an embarrassing look at the "new GW corporate mindset", me thinks. Hmm, I think you are getting a little over the top there. There are some simple elementary reasons why GW might have chosen not to have store copies or a demo set. The question is whether these are the reasons GW chose.

Bravo for the lads and the initiative/loyalty show, but it's just plain wrong to expect everyone to act like that on such stupid expectations by high level management. Again, I don't think you have this right. If the Brum boys did this on their own initiative then more fool/credit them. I would be interested to hear if it made any difference to their sales on the day.

Ravenous
03-10-2011, 20:08
I reckon this is not unusual at all these days although on GWs news page they mention the boys at Birmingham staying up all night to paint minis for the day.

Really they should have cracked the sucker open and painted it, worse comes to worse just re tape the box. Like there is following the rules, and then there is just being overly anal about it, everything in that box is a 30 min power wash job at best.

GWs always been weird like that though, they want you to go above and beyond your pay grade.

Spiney Norman
03-10-2011, 22:26
For this read LotR as well :(. I am certain this is not the first time GW has sold a new game without demo copies and expected it to sell - can you remember which one as it has slipped my mind? It certainly wouldn't have been the first time GW asked its staff to get a new release painted up in secret. Anyway I got tired of saying in meetings "We tried that before and it didn't work - we will need to review it and come up with something more effective" only to meet the wall of corporate compliance or long term memory loss. And of course I-told-you-so doesn't fit the new corporate culture.

I reckon this is not unusual at all these days although on GWs news page they mention the boys at Birmingham staying up all night to paint minis for the day.

If I was expected to stay up all night to paint 10 ships and god knows what else terrain etc in my own time between closing on friday and opening on saturday because they didn't want customers to see me assembling models they'd already seen pictures of online and played with at gamesday I know exactly what my response would be.

Clearly I would not make a good GW manager.

Omniassiah
03-10-2011, 22:57
Dreadfleet will sell out. I don't have any interest in it all personally (though I expected to have), but I don't think there's any doubt it'll be sold out inside a month.

They've already had two weeks worth of the daily newsletter and an entire issue of the magazine devoted to selling it, plus their shop staff have been instructed to sell at all costs (the staffer in my local shop even going so far as to grossly exaggerate about how much it's likely to yield on eBay in an attempt to get people to buy, though I doubt that was an instruction he received from on high... implication, possibly...). Plus it's a one-off limited edition new game from GW. It would have to be spectacularly bad not to sell out.

That being the case... maybe they figured, hey, y'know what, people who want it will buy it, and they'll play it at home. Not much point getting shop staff to spend time painting all the shops and running loads of intro games when it's going to sell out anyway. It's just a waste of company time and money (whereas of course staffer's personal time and money is a free resource :shifty:).

If that supposition holds true then while it's a cold-blooded decision, it's quite hard to argue with. My local GW has sold 12 out of 15 boxes I think, according to the store's Facebook page anyway. The rest will probably be gone by next weekend, and certainly by the end of the month. Why bother encouraging the staffer to spend time getting people excited about it when within a few days he won't have any boxes left to sell to them, even if they decide they want it?

It's not going to sell out in a month, I can pretty much guarantee it. With out getting into specifics(I like my job) and I can say rather confidently that Dreadfleet is no where close to selling like Space Hulk did. Will it sell out, well it's a limited release so yes. Will it happen in a month... extremely unlucky.

If you happen to have a US/NA FLGS that is needs some PM me, I can pass along where to get them.

yabbadabba
03-10-2011, 23:10
If I was expected to stay up all night to paint 10 ships and god knows what else terrain etc in my own time between closing on friday and opening on saturday because they didn't want customers to see me assembling models they'd already seen pictures of online and played with at gamesday I know exactly what my response would be.

Clearly I would not make a good GW manager. Do you have any proof that GW had that expectation Spiney or are you just reading into something that isn't there?

FabricatorGeneralMike
03-10-2011, 23:12
If I was expected to stay up all night to paint 10 ships and god knows what else terrain etc in my own time between closing on friday and opening on saturday because they didn't want customers to see me assembling models they'd already seen pictures of online and played with at gamesday I know exactly what my response would be.

Clearly I would not make a good GW manager.

Actually, you wouldn't even make it into the door with that attitude at GW. When I worked there I did ALOT of unpaid overtime because; 1) I loved the hobby at the time and I wanted everything to look awsome. 2) Because it was expected of me. If you where asked to stay late after closing or come in early before opening you did it or you didn't have a job simple as that.


I can't remember how often I would stay to fix terrain, paint store armies, do random stuff that stores need like cleaning mantiance work etc etc etc. I did it because I really believed in the company and the product..... wow how things change.

I do feel kind of sad though, my grandson is three right now and other then my old Space Marine and GW models he isn't going to know what this awsome universe is unless I show it to him. I will never pay retail prices for GW stuff again. Although that could be a good thing, he will learn RT era fluff and not Mr Wards fluff crap.

Pacorko
03-10-2011, 23:21
Actually, you wouldn't even make it into the door with that attitude at GW. When I worked there I did ALOT of unpaid overtime because; 1) I loved the hobby at the time and I wanted everything to look awsome. 2) Because it was expected of me. If you where asked to stay late after closing or come in early before opening you did it or you didn't have a job simple as that.

Yeehaw! Pass the Kool-Aid, kids! We got us into a hobby cult!

Seriously, :wtf: Expected? To hell with it. You have a set schedule which you signed for in a mutually binding contract. They want you to put up with extra hours and effort, thus ask you to as you put it, they better be ready to pay for it, otherwise there's nothing they can do about but prey on the suckers, the brainwashed or the desperate who work for them at retail.

It wasn't right 20 years ago, it isn't right now.



I can't remember how often I would stay to fix terrain, paint store armies, do random stuff that stores need like cleaning mantiance work etc etc etc. I did it because I really believed in the company and the product..... wow how things change.

Ah, I'm glad you opened your eyes and/or got a better job with fair payment.


I do feel kind of sad though, my grandson is three right now and other then my old Space Marine and GW models he isn't going to know what this awsome universe is unless I show it to him. I will never pay retail prices for GW stuff again. Although that could be a good thing, he will learn RT era fluff and not Mr Wards fluff crap.

All right, then. There I agree. We make the games we want with the fluff we like and the models we own, as much as we please.

Mirbeau
04-10-2011, 00:17
Do you have any proof that GW had that expectation Spiney or are you just reading into something that isn't there?

+1, there has been a lot of incorrect assumptions in this thread. Even on the GW blog today - the Birmingham store featured was using unpainted miniatures. Not that I'm trying to say staff don't have to pitch in/work overtime on occasion.

That said, the turn-out was a let down in my area, and others round london too, from speaking to mates in different stores. Most of the vocal complaints in my store were due to wanting something set in the 40k universe, and the price. I still feel it will sell out, I just hope low sales from the stores I know of (and possibly others) haven't turned gw off the idea of doing more of these.

Shamutanti
04-10-2011, 01:22
If the Brum boys did this on their own initiative then more fool/credit them. I would be interested to hear if it made any difference to their sales on the day.

From what I know it made little/no difference to those who made zero effort to demo/paint/build on the day.

herbtarkel
04-10-2011, 04:24
"Yes, you did work fifteen hours a day in the mine, but you also bought canned beans from the company store, so actually, you owe us money." :eyebrows:

I pity the people working in those conditions, and hope they get a new job as fast as possible. I hear Satan give you a good contract...

Yeah, it's just ... well, there are no words to describe it.

Glad to hear some stores did have the game on demo regardless.

Max Jet
04-10-2011, 09:43
Do you have any proof that GW had that expectation Spiney or are you just reading into something that isn't there?

Truth to be told this sounds way to bad to be actually true. I am going to ask around.

xxRavenxx
04-10-2011, 11:08
The only problem I see with the blackout is that 90% of my customers who've come in in the last week have looked puzzled and said "What's dreadfleet?"

similarly, none of them had £70 lying around and thusly I still have my full stock.

I expect they'll sell given some time for people to save up, or come christmas time, but its a shame. I think the launch needed a little more... pop. I think showing vague teasers for a month or two before in WD would have helped. A picture of a ship, a cryptic piratey message, something more... viral.

Spiney Norman
04-10-2011, 12:00
Actually, you wouldn't even make it into the door with that attitude at GW. When I worked there I did ALOT of unpaid overtime because; 1) I loved the hobby at the time and I wanted everything to look awsome. 2) Because it was expected of me. If you where asked to stay late after closing or come in early before opening you did it or you didn't have a job simple as that.


I can't remember how often I would stay to fix terrain, paint store armies, do random stuff that stores need like cleaning mantiance work etc etc etc. I did it because I really believed in the company and the product..... wow how things change.

I do feel kind of sad though, my grandson is three right now and other then my old Space Marine and GW models he isn't going to know what this awsome universe is unless I show it to him. I will never pay retail prices for GW stuff again. Although that could be a good thing, he will learn RT era fluff and not Mr Wards fluff crap.

I think you misread me slightly, I'm happy to do some unpaid overtime, I do a lot in the job I'm in now, but I'm not interested in spending all night assembling complex models that I should have had all week to do just because some suit-wearing, non-hobbiest took a crap decision.

Let me put it another way, I don't like being taken advantage of to cover the **** of an idiot that gets paid more than I do ;) No doubt the recent run of jaw-droppingly bad decisions has eroded my store of goodwill towards the GW execs.

I know the staff at the GW local are struggling to understand the way the company's decision making process are going now as well, I mean how many times can you straight-facedly attempt to explain to a veteran why they no-longer get their WD on time before you crack?


Do you have any proof that GW had that expectation Spiney or are you just reading into something that isn't there?
Well ok not exactly, but I've no reason to suspect that the manager of my local was lying to me and he's not a slacker, so if head office don't want the game opened before release day AND want you to run demo games I'm not sure how many options are left...

Emperors Teeth
04-10-2011, 12:14
My local had opened the box either the night before or morning before opening and gotten a basic level of painting done on the ships. They had read, re-written and printed a summary of important rules to use to do demo-games.

All the staff had pirate costumes. Props to them, I was impressed with the effort and enthusiasm. They couldn't convince me to buy a game I'll never play, but I hope they sold some to others.

dante76
04-10-2011, 14:24
I had 5 preorders and they all went on Saturday, I've got 4 copies left with 1 left on shelf. Didn't run a demo game either.

DCLXVI
04-10-2011, 14:35
I popped into the Birmingham store on my way to work last week (only to get a couple of paints mind you, I buy all my minis online). They told me about Dreadfleet and I said I wasn't interested as I only play 40k, but I did like the look of the islands. Didn't mention that I'd use them for Dystopian Wars as I doubt it would have gone down too well.
The one guy in there said that if I came in on the Saturday it was released, and spent £50, I could be entered into a raffle to win a part of a Dreadfleet game, and seeing as most people would want the extra ships I could choose the islands.

Needless to say my Saturday afternoon was spent in a pub garden enjoying the sun - who knows what happened to the rest of the Dreadfleet game that the lucky winner didn't choose?

FabricatorGeneralMike
04-10-2011, 15:49
I think you misread me slightly, I'm happy to do some unpaid overtime, I do a lot in the job I'm in now, but I'm not interested in spending all night assembling complex models that I should have had all week to do just because some suit-wearing, non-hobbiest took a crap decision.

Let me put it another way, I don't like being taken advantage of to cover the **** of an idiot that gets paid more than I do ;) No doubt the recent run of jaw-droppingly bad decisions has eroded my store of goodwill towards the GW execs.

I know the staff at the GW local are struggling to understand the way the company's decision making process are going now as well, I mean how many times can you straight-facedly attempt to explain to a veteran why they no-longer get their WD on time before you crack?


I am sorry if I came across rather harshly there, that was not my intention. I was just speaking about what I did during my time there. I also stayed late alot to paint my armies up after hours. Usually have a friend with me or three and play later when all the kiddies where gone....usually with a few wobley pops. So it wasn't all bad.

I also got to go to conflict or astronomocon here in Vancouver and got paid 8hrs to do it. So like I said it wasn't all bad. Yes there was alot of ' this is the way GW wants things done, don't question it, it workes, we don't know what it is, but we will know when you got it, and when you got it you will get your own store', but well all companys work that way.

I totally agree with number two, and that happened alot while I was there.

Which leads us to number three. It wasn't quite as bad as when I was there, but we where left scratching our heads quite often. GWUK and GWCanada didn't seem to communicate that well and we would often get contradictory e-mails on the same topic :wtf:. I guess the good thing was that I was the 'vet' out of the staff so I got where the old-timers where comming from. It was just all about the approach, don't act like a 12 year-old on a sugar high, and you will get a better responce then stalking someone through the store asking them pointless questions that you have to because your Store Manager, Area Manager and some big-wig from GWCanada are there and if you don't follow the 10 commandments your canned. This was the same manager who was doing the 'Blood Ravens vs. Salamanders Battle Tour who was doing his marines all in mkVI armour and I had to 'donate' my stockpile of MKVI bits to the cause...:angel:

yabbadabba
04-10-2011, 15:51
Truth to be told this sounds way to bad to be actually true. I am going to ask around. Would be interesting to hear the story.

Well ok not exactly, but I've no reason to suspect that the manager of my local was lying to me and he's not a slacker, so if head office don't want the game opened before release day AND want you to run demo games I'm not sure how many options are left... Well it appears that you have a conflict of business decisions. HO says you don't need an open box, manager disagrees, so that is up to him to work out how to resolve that conflict.

Don't get me wrong, I know GW managers and Area Managers who got staff to paint stuff for the store in their own time. Hell I did it once or twice when I was first a manager. Then I decided it was better to do it formally and pay them, or not do it at all. Got me into trouble a couple of times because some GW upper management do accept the idea that shop staff (in particular) can be exploited above and beyond.

SunTzu
04-10-2011, 16:21
One of my managers once asked me to paint an army in a weekend, because then one of our customers would buy that entire army, meaning we'd hit target (smash it in fact), and in return I'd get a unit of 30 naked Witch Elves that my manager had scrounged off some guy he knew in the factory.

It took me literally the entire weekend (with about four hours sleep) to paint the army, all on my own time, but hell yes it was worth it! 30 naked Witch Elves is something money can't buy. Or at least... it would have been worth it, if only I'd got the unit of 30 I'd been promised. I got one. Just one. But what could I do? Couldn't exactly get into an argument with my boss, and who knows, maybe he'd been promised 30 but only been able to get one, maybe it wasn't his fault he broke his promise to me (though the mantra we were always taught was "under-promise and over-deliver"). Even so, it was the last time I sacrificed my personal spare time. Fool me once, and all that.

Of course, I still wanted to do good things for the company I loved. Must have been about a year or so later I was asked if I could work in another shop in the area for a day, because it was going to be one guy on his own, and the busiest Saturday of the month. I didn't really want to do it (my hockey team were in a semi-final that day) but I figured, I'll do this for the company, it'll be appreciated, right? And I'd get paid, so I wouldn't be sacrificing my spare time. Well, my train was delayed so I got there late, expecting to see the one guy panicking and overwhelmed. Only, there wasn't one staffer in the shop - there were three. And there weren't loads of customers overwhelming them on a busy day - there were two regulars, quietly sitting at a painting table. I'd been completely lied to, and given up an important sports match for nothing. To add insult to injury, as I wasn't actually needed on the shop floor, they got me to do their stock-take for them in the back room instead. Seven hours of counting blister packs... a total waste of my day. So that was the last time I did anything beyond the absolute minimum for the company at all.

Nobody joins GW planning to do the minimum. Everybody wants to go above and beyond the call of duty, because they love the company and that's what you do for something you love, right? I can't think of any other high-street store where the staff choose to hang around on their days off, or spend ages doing whatever the equivalent would be of painting up armies in their spare time to go in the display cabinet. It is a labour of love. Unfortunately, GW are the bad partner in an abusive relationship and all too often, will use that love against their staff. Just as you can't condemn the girl who stays with her boyfriend even though he hits her, you shouldn't condemn shop staff for buying their own copy of Dreadfleet to use as a demo. They're doing it out of love... even if from the outside they're obviously only being used.

To add some balance to this post, I should make very clear it wasn't all bad. I worked for GW for a considerable length of time and had some good experiences. The discount was excellent, job satisfaction was usually high, the working atmosphere was usually very good, and ultimately I was being paid to do my hobby - how many people in this world can say that? I'm glad I worked there, make no mistake about that. I'm just also glad I left.

jack da greenskin
06-10-2011, 13:29
4 hours ago my gw's fb page posted:
"Yarghhh me hearties, yet more dreadfleets have left the safe port of GW - have you got yours yet? Yer chances are now limited as on the 11th October Long John Haydn will be travellin the region and taking stock to those stores whose Dreadfleets have all already sailed. DON'T MISS OUT!!! Come in today and pick up your copy. Not sure it's for you? We're running demo games all day every day - come in today to try it."


then, about 10 minutes ago:
"Another dreafleet leaves past the break water - make sure you don't miss out"

I sincerely hope they don't update the fb every time a copy of the game is sold.

orkmiester
07-10-2011, 11:02
reckon this is not unusual at all these days although on GWs news page they mention the boys at Birmingham staying up all night to paint minis for the day

really? i didn't notice- to be fair i only popped in to buy a daemon prince 'on a mission' as the staffer said to me:eyebrows: i nearly said something that wouldn't have been polite ('cough' expensive/one off rip-off of spartan games uncharted seas if you ask me- my club mates also said something along those lines...) as i already knew of course- forewarned is forearmed as they used to say:shifty:

and that was the only thing being played if i remember correctly.

stupid corporate jargon- we can all see through it:p

yabbadabba
07-10-2011, 11:49
@orkmeister - we could also say "cough spartan games uncharted seas rip off of Man o War" as well mate ;). I think elsewhere is quotes Blanche as saying that Dread Fleet was first broached in 2006 (or 09) so it certainly isn't as a direct response to Uncharted Seas.

I think we need to lay off the "rip off" line and look at it for what it is. Its a game you don't need if you don't want. Hence the price and value become relative.

Spiney Norman
07-10-2011, 13:03
Although in fairness, if you can look at another company's game and do it so much better then why on earth not? Dreadfleet in as far above Uncharted seas as US is above tiddly winks imho, at least from the quality of models perspective.

Voss
07-10-2011, 13:15
Speaking of secrecy.... (and to be on topic)

are there actually any october releases at all? I know the ship game came out on the first, but is there a mid-month release for fantasy or 40k? I've heard nothing at all about anything.

yabbadabba
07-10-2011, 14:22
Speaking of secrecy.... (and to be on topic)

are there actually any october releases at all? I know the ship game came out on the first, but is there a mid-month release for fantasy or 40k? I've heard nothing at all about anything. Back when GW were following this sort of release approach normally after a "major" release you could expect low key releases, with support being a week or two after. So this week would be blisters if this was 1995.

However this is not 1995 and Dreadfleet is a stand alone game so I would expect a low key release this week with a wave release next week.

Voss
07-10-2011, 15:40
However this is not 1995 and Dreadfleet is a stand alone game so I would expect a low key release this week with a wave release next week.
Given the empty nature of the advance order pages, it seems pretty clear that there is no release at all this week, though. With the (approximate) two week preorder window, I don't see much possibility of anything until around the 22nd, but I have absolutely no idea what it could be (if anything)

yabbadabba
07-10-2011, 15:41
Then it could well be nothing Voss.

Fredox
07-10-2011, 16:24
There's been some mumblings about the last weekend of October. Necron pre-orders would fit if they are being released the first weekend of November.

eldargal
07-10-2011, 16:27
Well saturday is the day we find out about new things, isn't it? So if there is anything coming this month tomorrow or next saturday would be the obvious choices for the announcement and having them up on the website.

shelfunit.
07-10-2011, 16:32
Although in fairness, if you can look at another company's game and do it so much better then why on earth not? Dreadfleet in as far above Uncharted seas as US is above tiddly winks imho, at least from the quality of models perspective.

That's really down to personal opinion though, not objective quality of the models. Both companies efforts have their merits and failings, but neither of the ship collections are "better" than the other when it comes to quality of casting/details - especially with the newer CAD versions of the US ships.

Voss
07-10-2011, 16:33
There's been some mumblings about the last weekend of October. Necron pre-orders would fit if they are being released the first weekend of November.

True, but that would mean they are giving both fantasy and 40K a month off, and thats a little strange.

rodmillard
07-10-2011, 21:14
There's been some mumblings about the last weekend of October. Necron pre-orders would fit if they are being released the first weekend of November.

Weren't there rumblings about another fineca$t wave, which may or may not have been delayed because of QA issues? They may have left the release slots free for that but not plugged it in WD (which would have gone to press in July) because they weren't sure at that point how much (if any) of it they would be able to release...

Sythica
08-10-2011, 01:05
I agree with the OP. Because I have no clue about upcoming releases, I have already allocated my time and money gaming budget elsewhere for the next few months. GW's current marketing model is a failure for me.

lorelorn
08-10-2011, 04:54
However this is not 1995 and Dreadfleet is a stand alone game so I would expect a low key release this week with a wave release next week.

I see what you did there :)

Private_SeeD
08-10-2011, 09:24
After reading the last posts, I've been told there will be fantasy releases in December bar that I have no idea what will be coming in Oct/Nov which like Sythica said is stupid casue I just won't budget/save tbh

yabbadabba
08-10-2011, 10:00
After reading the last posts, I've been told there will be fantasy releases in December bar that I have no idea what will be coming in Oct/Nov which like Sythica said is stupid casue I just won't budget/save tbh OK, I am going to challenge this, in general terms (this isn't directed solely at you private_seed). Are people that desperate for new toys that they can't wait? That they can't save something that is already out, instead of having to have it on release?

Is this a consequence of the Playstation and I-toy generation where if you can't get something on the day of release then you are a social outcast? Or it suddenly loses social value?

What's the harm in waiting for a week or two, enjoying the anticipation and chance to research before diving in with the readies?

I am sorry but the argument that if you don't know about something in advance you just won't budget/save for something just because you don't know about it in advance is an excuse, not a reason.

iamfanboy
08-10-2011, 10:37
OK, I am going to challenge this, in general terms (this isn't directed solely at you private_seed). Are people that desperate for new toys that they can't wait? That they can't save something that is already out, instead of having to have it on release?

Is this a consequence of the Playstation and I-toy generation where if you can't get something on the day of release then you are a social outcast? Or it suddenly loses social value?

What's the harm in waiting for a week or two, enjoying the anticipation and chance to research before diving in with the readies?

I am sorry but the argument that if you don't know about something in advance you just won't budget/save for something just because you don't know about it in advance is an excuse, not a reason.
I shoot back at you: what's the harm in telling us what's coming up, to build anticipation and make people more excited about the next big thing coming out?

Ironically, despite your I-toy remark, the only other company I can think of which does its best to keep EVERYTHING secret until a short time before release is... Apple. Even so, there are enough 'leaks' to work the fanbois up in anticipation, so much so that most cynical folks believe that Apple engineers these leaks themselves.


Name me one other entertainment company that hides its release schedule from the public until weeks before the product comes out. Video game companies don't. RPG companies don't. Lego doesn't. Magic the Gathering... doesn't.

How does the secrecy benefit GW, other than to make them feel big and important?

eldargal
08-10-2011, 10:55
Personally I changed my opinion on the lack of news when I only had to wait one week for my Lhamaeans instead of three or four. Not sure I could have stood that.

yabbadabba
08-10-2011, 10:59
iamafanboy - answering a question with a question is bad form. Or politics.

iamfanboy
08-10-2011, 12:15
iamafanboy - answering a question with a question is bad form. Or politics.
Ah, but I answered your question below my question. But let me make it plain, since (apparently) you couldn't read between the lines.

No, people aren't so desperate for new toys that they will reject a company simply because it does not give new release information.

Instead, the companies that do not give new release information in advance are (universally!) arrogant; such companies have the mistaken belief that their drooling fanbois wait upon their every movement just so that even with only a slight amount of advance notice EVERY ONE of their customers will instantly know that something new is coming out and spring upon it like a ravening beast.

More rational companies, like, say, Wizards of the Coast, give teasers and previews weeks or even months in advance - oftentimes, the newest sets will be 'spoiled' (with every card known) several weeks before its actual release!

This fervor is helped along by prerelease tournaments, limited edition cards, carefully planted rumors, and fiction stories spread on their website.


Is it fair comparing WotC to GW? Yes. They are both in the same business (making games), but one is wildly more successful than the other because of its business practices. GW could stand to take a few lessons from WotC, from how to construct good rules sets (hint: hire outside playtesters!) to how to deal with a retail chain (hint: drop it like a sack of rotting, week-dead kittens).

yabbadabba
08-10-2011, 13:13
Ah, but I answered your question below my question. But let me make it plain, since (apparently) you couldn't read between the lines. Getting an insult in early?

No, people aren't so desperate for new toys that they will reject a company simply because it does not give new release information. Yet on Warseer this is what is intimated at. "I don't know what is coming out so I won't buy anything" sounds a tad more rejective than "I have a project which I can continue until I have enough to buy into a new one."

Instead, the companies that do not give new release information in advance are (universally!) arrogant; such companies have the mistaken belief that their drooling fanbois wait upon their every movement just so that even with only a slight amount of advance notice EVERY ONE of their customers will instantly know that something new is coming out and spring upon it like a ravening beast. I think the arrogance here is that you think you know GW so well - unless of course you are in the upper management or you are on the board? GW has done well with its new release schedule for years so why change it? OK lets look at the options:

They are arrogant. Possibly knowing GW management as I do I wouldn't rule it out but knowing the sales channels as I do this would be something they would resist hand and foot. New releases make up 25% of sales so to hobble it makes no sense and hurts Trade more than anyone else.
They have to. More likely. GW have a court case with CHS and a licence with Tolkein Enterprises and Newline Cinemas. There could be other issues. Any of these three could bury GW if mistakes are made. This could be a response to those situations, probably under legal advice
They are forcing people through their own sales channels. Not really, as it is cutting their own throat. There are better ways of doing this than curtailing rumours and new releases, which again GW has the data to support.
They are trying something new. Unlikely but GW don't have marketeers and tend to deal with such issues internally. They have also done this before and the difference between the results then, and now, would more than underline why it is not a good idea.
A combination of the above

Can you add anything else, rational?

More rational companies, like, say, Wizards of the Coast, give teasers and previews weeks or even months in advance - oftentimes, the newest sets will be 'spoiled' (with every card known) several weeks before its actual release!

This fervor is helped along by prerelease tournaments, limited edition cards, carefully planted rumors, and fiction stories spread on their website. GW have done all this as well. But I answer this more below.

Is it fair comparing WotC to GW? Yes. They are both in the same business (making games), but one is wildly more successful than the other because of its business practices. They are in different games, they have different structures, different products and have a small market crossover. Yup, that makes them a valid comparison. The only thing they vaguely have in hard comparison is that they both release new editions so that fanatics and faddists/fashionistas have to go and buy everything again.

GW could stand to take a few lessons from WotC, from how to construct good rules sets (hint: hire outside playtesters!) They tried this for some time with the core games and it crashed and burnt. They tried it with the SGs and ...... well you have some small, localised efforts out there outside of BB but that's it.

to how to deal with a retail chain (hint: drop it like a sack of rotting, week-dead kittens). :rolleyes: Yeah good idea, drop approx 50% of their turnover with no plan or hope to replace this immediately or in the short term. Then watch an external company come in a chop it all up and good bye GW! Better working practices and a more coherent regional based retail strategy with less central directive control yes.

Again your post doesn't answer my point in anyway iamafanboy, its just a bit of a rant. I cannot see any beneficial business reason for the change in NR policy other than business-breaking necessity. This is a policy which is inferior to the new release policies they have had previously. Yet we come back to the same issue for the customer. In real terms there is no difference from getting your toys this Saturday or in 2 or 3 Monday's time, espeically for wargaming which takes planning and forethought, other than a consumerist desire for must-have-now. There are alot of GW products where you would want time before purchase, like a new army or game. The reason companies do this sort of promotion is because they would prefer all you money now rather than later when you realise you might not want that product, or that it wasn't as good as you thought. It standard basic commercialism and something we have all been mindwashed to accept.

Dai-Mongar
08-10-2011, 15:03
For the record, WotC does playtesting (at least for M:TG) within R&D. And they make their share of mistakes.
Also, most Magic sets aren't entirely spoiled several weeks before the release, New Phyrexia being an obvious recent exception because it was leaked.

Inquisitor Kallus
08-10-2011, 15:29
@iamfanboy

A huge part of it is down to Chapterhouse Studios and GWs 'dealings'. This is why theyre 'holding back', and I don't blame them at this moment in time.

winterdyne
08-10-2011, 16:25
Unless what they're releasing is related directly to what Chapterhouse put out (eg a Doom of M, Salamanders shoulderpads etc) that caused the issue, I really can't see how that lawsuit is relevant. I think it more likely that they're evaluating their QA/QC and/or release scheduling procedures. There was still a load of cack finecast on the shelf at WHW when I looked a couple of days ago.
The general reaction to the toolkit release has also been pretty bad - ironic as it's actually one of their better releases of late.
At the end of the day though, it's GW and some of their procedures and reactive measures are frankly baffling.

Inquisitor Kallus
08-10-2011, 17:15
Of course its relevant, its a big part of the reason they cut down on rumours even more and why they have an even shorter whisper and promotion time frame. In fact the whisper period has mostly gone out the window

yabbadabba
08-10-2011, 17:23
At the end of the day though, it's GW and some of their procedures and reactive measures are frankly baffling. They are only baffling because we get no information on those decisions. And for whatever reason we (the community) wants to know every little detail about GW and its business practices.

Of course its relevant, its a big part of the reason they cut down on rumours even more and why they have an even shorter whisper and promotion time frame. In fact the whisper period has mostly gone out the window What will be interesting to see if things change post-CHS/post Hobbit.

Inquisitor Kallus
08-10-2011, 18:41
They are only baffling because we get no information on those decisions. And for whatever reason we (the community) wants to know every little detail about GW and its business practices.
What will be interesting to see if things change post-CHS/post Hobbit.

Agreed. Hopefully a lot of things will change after.

Voss
09-10-2011, 00:16
I wouldn't say there is a need to know every little detail.

It would, however, be nice to know if they are releasing products.

Though right at this moment, the fantasy news is pretty good for next year, in that there actually seem to be products on the horizon, and they are interesting. LotR, I can understand as being masked by whatever restrictions are on the Hobbit. 40K, on the other hand, seems to be an empty void.

iamfanboy
09-10-2011, 04:29
Getting an insult in early?
Yet on Warseer this is what is intimated at. "I don't know what is coming out so I won't buy anything" sounds a tad more rejective than "I have a project which I can continue until I have enough to buy into a new one."
That's part of GW's arrogance. Rather than trying to engage their customer on any level other than superficially, they simply state "This is the way we are doing it" and always have. The people who are rejecting GW's current ways are just waking up to that feeling of... well, disdain for their customer base.


I think the arrogance here is that you think you know GW so well - unless of course you are in the upper management or you are on the board?
Nope, but you and blongbling have, as well as others I've corresponded with, and your words speak of an entrenched and arrogant yes-man culture that believes it can do no wrong and that no matter what, there will always be a hard core of fans along with new generations of kids to fund their terrible decisions.


GW has done well with its new release schedule for years so why change it? OK lets look at the options:

They are arrogant. Possibly knowing GW management as I do I wouldn't rule it out but knowing the sales channels as I do this would be something they would resist hand and foot. New releases make up 25% of sales so to hobble it makes no sense and hurts Trade more than anyone else.
They have to. More likely. GW have a court case with CHS and a licence with Tolkein Enterprises and Newline Cinemas. There could be other issues. Any of these three could bury GW if mistakes are made. This could be a response to those situations, probably under legal advice
They are forcing people through their own sales channels. Not really, as it is cutting their own throat. There are better ways of doing this than curtailing rumours and new releases, which again GW has the data to support.
They are trying something new. Unlikely but GW don't have marketeers and tend to deal with such issues internally. They have also done this before and the difference between the results then, and now, would more than underline why it is not a good idea.
A combination of the above

Can you add anything else, rational?
I would definitely say that it's been a business decision, most likely forced on them from outside, which has caused this current secrecy - but it's complacency and arrogance that drives the notion "It won't harm our business," a mantra that they've been repeating to each other so long I'm surprised they can hear anything else.

Regardless of that, however, situations like that described in the OP (a store manager not allowed to open a new game for demos until THE DAY before it's released) just strikes me as damfoolishness.


They are in different games, they have different structures, different products and have a small market crossover. Yup, that makes them a valid comparison. The only thing they vaguely have in hard comparison is that they both release new editions so that fanatics and faddists/fashionistas have to go and buy everything again.
They both compete for the same niche market (gaming), and strangely the rules of both appeal to the same semi-autistic, detail-obsessed type of gamer - or maybe it's because I'm here in the states and see that the crossover is actually a bit larger than most would admit.


They tried this for some time with the core games and it crashed and burnt. They tried it with the SGs and ...... well you have some small, localised efforts out there outside of BB but that's it.
It crashed and burned because (once again!) that arrogance came into play. "OMFG! Someone OUTSIDE the company knows vague details of the army that's going to come out! No one will EVER buy the book if they already know some of the stats! I mean, jeez, books are our main source of revenue, whoever buys our little plastic army men anyway?"


:rolleyes: Yeah good idea, drop approx 50% of their turnover with no plan or hope to replace this immediately or in the short term. Then watch an external company come in a chop it all up and good bye GW! Better working practices and a more coherent regional based retail strategy with less central directive control yes.
You forget that I am one of the few folks who DOESN'T think they should drop the retail chain right away, apparently. And it's probably less than 50% - after all, the last financial report was conspicuously missing the percentage of indie to retail sales, and the only reason I can think of to leave it out is if retail stores did really badly compared to their 'flagship' business model...

But they do heartily need to rethink their retail model. Even in their 'core' market (England) the number of independent actual gaming stores outnumber GW stores better than 2:1 - yes, I went through their 'regional' listings and actually counted by hand the number of stores, only counting the ones with OBVIOUSLY geeky names.


Again your post doesn't answer my point in anyway iamafanboy, its just a bit of a rant. I cannot see any beneficial business reason for the change in NR policy other than business-breaking necessity. This is a policy which is inferior to the new release policies they have had previously. Yet we come back to the same issue for the customer. In real terms there is no difference from getting your toys this Saturday or in 2 or 3 Monday's time, espeically for wargaming which takes planning and forethought, other than a consumerist desire for must-have-now. There are alot of GW products where you would want time before purchase, like a new army or game. The reason companies do this sort of promotion is because they would prefer all you money now rather than later when you realise you might not want that product, or that it wasn't as good as you thought. It standard basic commercialism and something we have all been mindwashed to accept.
See now, that's the problem entirely with this plan applied to Dreadfleet - if it's an 'impulse, have it now' purchase, it makes no sense to have it so bleeding expensive and based on a game that was a hardassed failure even at the HEIGHT of the SG era.

It's as though someone looked at the success of Space Hulk and thought to themselves, "Hmmm, that did quite well - too well, in fact. Now which of those old Specialist Games could we release that would flop so we can make excuses as to why we will never do this sort of thing again?"

If they wanted money, they should have done Blood Bowl or Battlefleet Gothic - maybe Necromunda. Hopefully they'll do BB next year, and won't charge $150 USD for it, as it'll be the 25th anniversary, but this whole not-success (when compared to Space Hulk's) might give them an out for NOT doing it.


It's just... their whole business plan is a total mess. Every time I turn around, it seems like they're doing something elementary wrong, something even a first-year business graduate would tell them NOT to do. It's hard not to get annoyed at that.

Brother Weasel
09-10-2011, 05:30
Nope, but you and blongbling have, as well as others I've corresponded with, and your words speak of an entrenched and arrogant yes-man culture that believes it can do no wrong and that no matter what, there will always be a hard core of fans along with new generations of kids to fund their terrible decisions.


you know there is a pretty large population of gamers who don't really care. they buy their books, their minis from whatever source, play the games wherever they play, paint the minis wherever they paint, and don't give a crap if gw leaks info or not... i buy what i buy, and do wha ti do pretty much without care how gw or any other company releases info, if i can't affors something, i don't buy it.

and my table top gaming budget doen'st compete with any other gaming budget, but then i don't feel the need to buy every new mini that pops up, so some months i may buy a few hundred bux worth others i may buy none... confuses me that people need to plan so far in advance and when they can't buy somethingn day one they get all uppity... oh well, back to my hole

yabbadabba
09-10-2011, 09:40
Nope, but you and blongbling have, as well as others I've corresponded with, and your words speak of an entrenched and arrogant yes-man culture that believes it can do no wrong and that no matter what, there will always be a hard core of fans along with new generations of kids to fund their terrible decisions. If you believe this then there is not any point in continuing this discussion. Not only does it show you haven't read any of blongbling and my posts properly (so anything I write will be pointless anyway), but that you are incapable of listening to anything we write down in a balanced and informed manner.

Tay051173096
09-10-2011, 11:05
OK, I am going to challenge this, in general terms (this isn't directed solely at you private_seed). Are people that desperate for new toys that they can't wait? That they can't save something that is already out, instead of having to have it on release?

Is this a consequence of the Playstation and I-toy generation where if you can't get something on the day of release then you are a social outcast? Or it suddenly loses social value?

What's the harm in waiting for a week or two, enjoying the anticipation and chance to research before diving in with the readies?

I am sorry but the argument that if you don't know about something in advance you just won't budget/save for something just because you don't know about it in advance is an excuse, not a reason.

For me personally, its about bugeting.

If I know something is comming out in a couple months, I can set aside a little each month for a splurge on a release (dark eldar, grey knights ect). This of course has to go up against things like parts for my motorbike and days out to the beach.

I also have a collection of miniatures from other producers and have a small list of future release dates by them for models and books I want. They show a fully done model and concept art to get people interested and then release.

With the 'possible' release of necrons, the back page of the white dwarf could have shown a single monolith hovering over some killed IG with destroyrd tanks in the back ground, with the words 'they rise again' or something. This would have sparked eveyones interest and would make people come to the shops or website to see whats happeing on the WD release date.

I just want a teaser of whats comming not everything, got to have something to look forward to.

yabbadabba
09-10-2011, 16:13
For me personally, its about bugeting
Ok, question on budegting. Why not just get the army book first. work out what you want, then build up after the release?

Surely, and especially with what you have described, unless you just collect models splurging out on the release date is the worst thing to do? I'd want to read the amry book, write a few army lists, have a chunder and then commit my cash.

Isn't this a better way of budgeting?

Brother Weasel
09-10-2011, 16:26
The only time budgeting really matters (for arelease, not budgeting in general) is if they do a limited release, that doesn't happen all that often (andif it really matters, take a few hundred buxand put it in an emergency GW limited release fund)

otherwise there isn't a NEED to get things the day they are released. If the necron codex was on sale tomorrow, and you play crons or otherwise want it, but couldn'te afford it for a month, it wouldstill be in the store (and you could, if you are local enough to a gw store, brouse the codex all you wanted)

winterdyne
09-10-2011, 16:26
Umm, isn't chunder vomit? Or are the kids using different slang these days? Seems a bit weird to write an army list, puke, then pay? Then again, the smell of some of the FLGSs I've been in...

ModelCalamity
09-10-2011, 17:12
The thing is that the actual reasoning behind the release schedule is that the moment the models arrive at a store (either GW or FLGS) the models are there for sale.

In essence what has happens is that the time when models come in, has become the Black box unboxing day from a few months back. With the only exception that the models are available at the same time.

Whilst this made it look like we would get information more irregular especially in that first month, now that we have had a few launches we are in a regular pattern again. In the previous release schedule we knew what was coming out one week before the black box. Now this is the same but if you wish you could even buy the models on the spot. If you don't you can budget two weeks or more to get the models later. I agree with Yabba here that there is no difference if you are the budgeting type that you need to have the models on launch. You could just buy them a month later.

But isn't it great customer service that people that don't budget but spend on a whim could buy models the moment they arrive in a store for the first time? Or order them the moment they are announced on the web?

iamfanboy
09-10-2011, 18:26
If you believe this then there is not any point in continuing this discussion. Not only does it show you haven't read any of blongbling and my posts properly (so anything I write will be pointless anyway), but that you are incapable of listening to anything we write down in a balanced and informed manner.

*sung to the tune of the main Star Wars theme*

It's a Strawww-man
It's a strawww-man
attack part of my stateeeement
iiignore the rest

Shall I find some posts of yours where you complain about upper management, and talked about how they were idiots?


Try being an up-from-the-ranks middle manager there. If you have anything like a conscience and a love of the hobby talk about between a rock and a hard place


GW have an AGM this month they are hardly going to say much else. Simple fact is that without a fly-on-the-wall assessment of the actual planning and decision making process at the top, GW could say they have made £100m profit and still be lions lead by donkeys


If the GW higher ups are doing this for that reason then:

a) They haven't looked at their own data,
b) Experienced managers don't need to worry about that, so maybe the quality of the staff has gone down or
c) The higher ups are losing it. More.

I am of course of the opinion that c) has been happening for almost 10 years now, but that's my opinion.


Now let me set things straight - anyone who has read my posts knows I am highly critical of GWs business practices and I do think they have charged too much, so this certainly isn't Fanboi talk.


As to the stores, GW should have stores in the US but, laws allowing, they should be real flagship stores with products more suited to a US market and with items not found in UK stores, like FW. With that, or alternatively, GW should leave the Us to the Indies as it is far too much hassle otherwise.

Anyway, all this has been suggested, but unfortunately not by people in the inner circle that I know of. So its been pat on the back and "Stick to what you are good at chap!"

....I won't go on, that's just from the last two months or so in GW General.

I mean, help me out here yabbadabba. Am I taking your posts out of context here? Or are you stuck between two rocks here, on one side the fact that you didn't like GW's upper management, the other feeling obliged to defend them to outsiders because you were (at one point) one of them?


But surely we can both agree that this secrecy is idiocy, no?

yabbadabba
09-10-2011, 18:38
Umm, isn't chunder vomit? Ooops :D I meant chunter - that's a word my social groups have used for mulling something over

Then again, the smell of some of the FLGSs I've been in... Too true :eek:

@Modelcalamity

I agree with Yabba here that there is no difference if you are the budgeting type that you need to have the models on launch. You could just buy them a month later. Cheers mate, that's the bit I needed to get to grips with.

But isn't it great customer service that people that don't budget but spend on a whim could buy models the moment they arrive in a store for the first time? Or order them the moment they are announced on the web?Oh yes in many respects GWs pre-secrecy new release strategy was a big success, internet whinging aside. I think part of the problem is GWs lack of communication generally across the business with its customers, coupled with the usual internet hysteria and negativity (not uniwue, it was in the clubs long befor eit hit the net) means that internet muth becomes more believable than a balanced and considered appreciation of the situation.

Tay051173096
09-10-2011, 19:21
Ok, question on budegting. Why not just get the army book first. work out what you want, then build up after the release?

Surely, and especially with what you have described, unless you just collect models splurging out on the release date is the worst thing to do? I'd want to read the amry book, write a few army lists, have a chunder and then commit my cash.

Isn't this a better way of budgeting?

I think we are looking at different scales :confused:

For my GW 'allowance' I set aside 25 pounds i.e. a single box of troops to paint and assemble slowly over month, if I know there is something comming I will save up 50-80 pounds.

For the GK release I bought the book and a box of troops same with DE, this months slice of money went on a box of DE scourgers and a novel.

However a couple of months ago there was an deal on a back box (motorbike) for 240 pounds so my slice went to that instead.

I am not sure what other people set aside per month?

Is setting amounts of money aside at the beginning of the month strange in Britain?

Brother Weasel
09-10-2011, 19:32
I think we are looking at different scales :confused:

For my GW 'allowance' I set aside 25 pounds i.e. a single box of troops to paint and assemble slowly over month, if I know there is something comming I will save up 50-80 pounds.

For the GK release I bought the book and a box of troops same with DE, this months slice of money went on a box of DE scourgers and a novel.

However a couple of months ago there was an deal on a back box (motorbike) for 240 pounds so my slice went to that instead.

I am not sure what other people set aside per month?

Is setting amounts of money aside at the beginning of the month strange in Britain?

I think my question comes to, why not save up after it's released?

I understand budgets, i understand "i have this muc to spend a month and if i want somethign more then I have to save up a month" but i what i don't understand is this.

i have 40 a month to spend freely

it's october, and i'm surprised with a release that costs 80

so buy it in november?

what is it i'm missing

Private_SeeD
09-10-2011, 19:41
OK, I am going to challenge this, in general terms (this isn't directed solely at you private_seed). Are people that desperate for new toys that they can't wait? That they can't save something that is already out, instead of having to have it on release?

Is this a consequence of the Playstation and I-toy generation where if you can't get something on the day of release then you are a social outcast? Or it suddenly loses social value?

What's the harm in waiting for a week or two, enjoying the anticipation and chance to research before diving in with the readies?

I am sorry but the argument that if you don't know about something in advance you just won't budget/save for something just because you don't know about it in advance is an excuse, not a reason.

I have limited funds to spend on stuff like this, since most of my wages is spent on car, bills and rent. So I budget for 1 fun item a month... maybe 2 if i'm lucky. Here is an example, I know for a fact that the new Assassin Creed game is out next month so I know that my fun item for November will be going on, but I can't do that with GW cause I haven't a clue what's coming up. Granted it makes for nice surprise when something out of the blue is released (not counting stand alone releases)
However your paragraph about playstation, the i-toy and loss of social value, doesn't matter at all to me, it just mean's that GW will lose cause by the time I get the money together something new has come out which I want more or I have forgotten about it. I understand your point of view thou

rodmillard
09-10-2011, 19:43
I think my question comes to, why not save up after it's released?

I understand budgets, i understand "i have this muc to spend a month and if i want somethign more then I have to save up a month" but i what i don't understand is this.

i have 40 a month to spend freely

it's october, and i'm surprised with a release that costs 80

so buy it in november?

what is it i'm missing

Likewise - I have a £30 hobby budget each month, and 3 or more projects on the go at any one time. The only models I have bought on release (in the last 5 years +) have been character models that fall under my £10 "impulse buy" limit - usually, when something comes out I wait a while, since that month's money is usually earmarked for something else.

Why is it so hard for other people to do this? Is there some perceived advantage in getting the model as soon as it comes out (the fineca$t debacle would seem to indicate the opposite)?

f2k
09-10-2011, 19:45
I think my question comes to, why not save up after it's released?

I understand budgets, i understand "i have this muc to spend a month and if i want somethign more then I have to save up a month" but i what i don't understand is this.

i have 40 a month to spend freely

it's october, and i'm surprised with a release that costs 80

so buy it in november?

what is it i'm missing

What you're missing, I think, is that sometimes it's a limited release - like Dreadfleet, for example. That is: there might not be any boxes left by November. And, in any case, with a budget of £25 per months there wouldn't be any chance of getting that box until December. What's the chance of a limited release being avaliable at that point in time?

So, it's buy it now or forget about it...

Of course, that's the very reason that it's a limited release - it's all designed to make people buy, at vastly inflated prices no less, right here and right now rather than wait for a while, read a few reviews, and think about whether or not they really need it.

A complete news black-out is strangely at odds with the idea of building hype and letting people put sufficient money aside for limited splash-releases...

For regular releases, of course, you might just buy it the next month. But then again, thatís strangely at odds with the idea of customers generally being attracted to whatís new and shiny. Yesterdayís news is old news...

Omniassiah
09-10-2011, 20:27
Yet on Warseer this is what is intimated at. "I don't know what is coming out so I won't buy anything" sounds a tad more rejective than "I have a project which I can continue until I have enough to buy into a new one."

No, its the reality that very few people can just suddenly drop the kind of money on GW stuff with out planning for it. Now, like I would assume many here, I can afford GW stuff. But I'm not keeping several hundred dollars stored away in the hope that GW is going to release something I may actually care about in 2 weeks. So what ends up happening is GW is put on a far back burner and I plan my gaming budget for stuff that I want from other game companies, like Spartan, Battlefront, and PP, and I know with a close approximation of when they are being released a month to several months out.

GW doesn't need to let us know what they are going to release 6 months out in specific but not having a clue what the next 2 armies coming out in their core game system means that they are losing sales to people who just won't have the money planned for the releases when they come available.

Max Jet
09-10-2011, 20:49
Cheers mate, that's the bit I needed to get to grips with.

Hm... yet it seems that the GW gaming model encourages you to buy your models as quickly as possible. There are a few occasions where new Codex editions invalidate your old playstyle so that you are forced to dish out money for the newest miniatures in order to continue playing the game in a competitive environment. Saving up for the newest release is not as stupid as you make it sound.

yabbadabba
09-10-2011, 22:42
GW doesn't need to let us know what they are going to release 6 months out in specific but not having a clue what the next 2 armies coming out in their core game system means that they are losing sales to people who just won't have the money planned for the releases when they come available. Again the question still stands. I know what you are saying but why can't you buy the army after its released, rather than on the release?

Hm... yet it seems that the GW gaming model encourages you to buy your models as quickly as possible. There are a few occasions where new Codex editions invalidate your old playstyle so that you are forced to dish out money for the newest miniatures in order to continue playing the game in a competitive environment. Saving up for the newest release is not as stupid as you make it sound. I am not saying its stupid :rolleyes: and GWs new release strategy has fitted in with its gaming strategy and yes, they want your money there and then. As for a new codex invalidating a play style yes, but that means you need the new codex and then can get the models later.

@f2k - yeah limited release I think are in part there to push people into buying things they wouldn't normally, so budgets are less of a consideration. But I think had Dreadfleet come out 2 years ago we would have had a good month's worth promotion. Something has changed.

Sorry guys I think this is a cultural thing and I am not understanding it at all. I know why GW want people to do this, but I am not sure why people need to do this. But hey ho, as it is moot I am happy to drop the whole issue.

Tay051173096
09-10-2011, 22:56
[B]As for a new codex invalidating a play style yes, but that means you need the new codex and then can get the models later.[B]



I think this has been one of the main issues for some people, they want to know if their army is suddenly going to change and if they will have to buy more models to play.

GK removed some elements (stomtroopers) but added several other i.e purifiers, strike team and purge teams(?), with 5 in a box and you may need a couple (2-4 boxes) if you didn't have a clue that an expensive surprise.

May be a poor example but I hope you get the basic idea.

Lord_Goober
09-10-2011, 23:42
yeah. It was the rumors of 5e and the changes to the dark angels that drove me out of 40k in the end. I had 6 full units of Scouts for my Dark Angels army and they got turned into Elites in the Dark Angels book which put them into competing with other primary units and then would not have been able to hold objectives.

Omniassiah
10-10-2011, 00:19
Again the question still stands. I know what you are saying but why can't you buy the army after its released, rather than on the release?


Well prime example is what is more and likely going to happen in the current future for me. Supposedly, maybe, possibly Eldar are getting done for 40k in Jan/Feb, they are one of my 2 main armies I play in 40k. Now I'd be saving money for them but not knowing for sure the money is being saved for Red Bear/Grey Wolf which was confirmed for that time period by Battlefront Thursday. So after that happens I'll need to look over some of my late war lists and make some adjustments which is not a problem, Since I have the money budgeted till jun for that (this could have been Eldar but oh well I plan things a bit out.) By they I'll be waiting till possibly 6th ed. comes out till I even waste my time with Eldar, since why buy anything when the rules may or may not change what I need to buy. So we are looking at late Sept/Oct till I look at picking up anything eldar and that is assuming that some other game system I play doesn't come out with something interesting.

Now that big wall of text boiled down comes down to one point. I play other game systems and they let me know what they plan to release. And If I've already put a GW release on hold to buy something else, well it being on hold for a bit more won't bother me. And often that extra time waiting makes me look at GW's prices and go... wait, they want what for that!?

Which brings me to the one thing I agree with the news blackout for GW, By not giving you long enough to really look at what your paying for you are more likely to not do any comparisons.

Voss
10-10-2011, 07:54
For me, the lack of release information isn't just a matter of budget, though of course that does have some play.

Lets take the Necrons as an example. They've been a backburner project for me for the last several years. Its a concept that I find interesting, but not enough to pursue it full-bore. One notable result of this is that I have several notable holes in my collection notably, wraiths, C'tan (have neither), heavy destroyers, pariahs and to some extent, flayed ones (have 8). I also have a rather odd number of scarab bases (17), and 16 immortals.

The lack of information has several effects: notably, it puts working on the army even further on the backburner. I expect they'll come in november (and figured oct/nov was reliable back in april when folks first mentioned it). But there was enough room for doubt that I never picked up the pace on the army.

Second, the lack of information made me hold off on filling out my existing units. I figured on not buying pariahs (for a variety of reasons), but I held off on immortals (price, and the possibility of plastic models that aren't a pain), and, annoyingly, flayed ones. If I had some idea of what the new versions would be, I would have probably filled out the unit (and possibly a second) with existing models. Now they are unavailable. Lack of information: lost sales for filling out a collection. Same with the wraiths and, to a lesser extent, c'tan.

As far as budgeting goes, well... there are a few factors. If, when information comes out, do I budget for using my existing models, or upgrading to new plastics? Are there holes I must fill? Given my collection, how the book works out, and what appeals to me, this could be anywhere from 2 kits to 10. (Will I want to replace the immortals with the new shiny kit? Add flayed ones? More scarabs? Wraiths? Will heavy destroyers be necessary?) Thats quite a range to budget for. $100 to possibly $300+.

Alternately, if the book is terrible and GW's 40K issues continue, do I budget for finishing my current collection up and selling the whole thing off?

So, yeah, big range of issues based on the lack of information for a single book. Not to mention what could happen if other books I care about are in the works. Having some inkling now, (or preferably a couple months ago) would go a long way to making my life easier, and therefor more likely to buy stuff from GW.

And like Omniassiah, I have alternate places my money can go, other game systems, other hobbies, etc. I also have other places my time can go. Since I know SW: the Old Republic is coming out towards the end of december, I know one thing for certain: at least for a few weeks (if its bad) or months (if its the game it seems to be), my non-work time is going to be eaten by that game. To the point that building and painting an expansion to a Necron army isn't going to be in the cards. So a confirmed release would have helped me make plans to finish any new units before then.

Brother Weasel
10-10-2011, 16:34
What you're missing, I think, is that sometimes it's a limited release - like Dreadfleet, for example. That is: there might not be any boxes left by November. And, in any case, with a budget of £25 per months there wouldn't be any chance of getting that box until December. What's the chance of a limited release being avaliable at that point in time?

So, it's buy it now or forget about it...

Few things about that... first,it's happened, what2 times mow, in the entire time i've been in the hobby (15ish years)... and you can still get space hulk if you really want it...

and, budget:) put aside 100 bux for surpise limited stuff...:) just because you have 30 amonth to sepnd doesn't mean you have to, and if gettin gthose limited ites is important to you, ten plan ahead for em... (rumor isblood blowl next year, you wnat it? stock some money up)

f2k
10-10-2011, 18:35
Few things about that... first,it's happened, what2 times mow, in the entire time i've been in the hobby (15ish years)... and you can still get space hulk if you really want it...

and, budget:) put aside 100 bux for surpise limited stuff...:) just because you have 30 amonth to sepnd doesn't mean you have to, and if gettin gthose limited ites is important to you, ten plan ahead for em... (rumor isblood blowl next year, you wnat it? stock some money up)

So just because Games Workshop might just release something cool I should put all my hobby-money (what little there are of 'em) aside? Thanks, but no thanks... My limited funds go into something that I know about here and now.
If I don't want anything this month I'll put the money aside. If I want something I'll use them. If I want something big I'll put them aside until I got enough money for what I want.

But put them away, just on the assumption that Games Workshop might release something good...? Nope, not gonna happen. There're many other companies that show up their upcoming releases, thus ensuring that whatever money I put aside goes into buying those models...

Brother Weasel
10-10-2011, 19:35
So just because Games Workshop might just release something cool I should put all my hobby-money (what little there are of 'em) aside? Thanks, but no thanks... My limited funds go into something that I know about here and now.
If I don't want anything this month I'll put the money aside. If I want something I'll use them. If I want something big I'll put them aside until I got enough money for what I want.

But put them away, just on the assumption that Games Workshop might release something good...? Nope, not gonna happen. There're many other companies that show up their upcoming releases, thus ensuring that whatever money I put aside goes into buying those models...

But you not saving for a GW limited soon to be sold out item only hurts you ( if you want said item) it being sold out means you not buying it and buying something else doesn't effect them right? I mean, it's sold out...

other wise all other items could be gotten later on, and while it may hurt day of release sales, it's the long term sales that matter to them... and maybe i'm strange, but if i want an item i generally will get it sooner or later, it's pretty rare that i'll decide later to not get it...

Max Jet
10-10-2011, 22:40
But you not saving for a GW limited soon to be sold out item only hurts you ( if you want said item) it being sold out means you not buying it and buying something else doesn't effect them right? I mean, it's sold out...

other wise all other items could be gotten later on, and while it may hurt day of release sales, it's the long term sales that matter to them... and maybe i'm strange, but if i want an item i generally will get it sooner or later, it's pretty rare that i'll decide later to not get it...

That's what limited releases are for. Polarise the buyers and drag as many potential costumers onto the "I should buy it even if I am not sure, because there is no second chance!" field. And it works! Because for everyone like me "I need time to decide wether I need it or not and the risk of not deciding rationaly now is too high." There are perhaps two people saying. "OMG I HAVE TO GET IT, even if I am unsure!!"

The more limited your funds are the more careful you are with what you buy. That's one of the reasons Dreadfleet was not designed for me.

Brother Weasel
10-10-2011, 23:17
That's what limited releases are for. Polarise the buyers and drag as many potential costumers onto the "I should buy it even if I am not sure, because there is no second chance!" field. And it works! Because for everyone like me "I need time to decide wether I need it or not and the risk of not deciding rationaly now is too high." There are perhaps two people saying. "OMG I HAVE TO GET IT, even if I am unsure!!"

The more limited your funds are the more careful you are with what you buy. That's one of the reasons Dreadfleet was not designed for me.

don't get me wrong, i'm not saying i agree that having super tight lips on everything is how i like it, i'[m just saying that this "budget" argument is... not good? the only thigs it stops you from doing is possible buying limited releases (or 2 things in the many many years i've been in) and there are other options for you to buy them if you want, but it requires you to either save ahead or pay more off ebay... but that's up to how you want to spend or not (the way i budget allows for such purchases if i want, but my budget is pretty flexable and i dont' buy things every month)

everything else can be bought at a later date.

Omniassiah
10-10-2011, 23:40
don't get me wrong, i'm not saying i agree that having super tight lips on everything is how i like it, i'[m just saying that this "budget" argument is... not good? the only thigs it stops you from doing is possible buying limited releases (or 2 things in the many many years i've been in) and there are other options for you to buy them if you want, but it requires you to either save ahead or pay more off ebay... but that's up to how you want to spend or not (the way i budget allows for such purchases if i want, but my budget is pretty flexable and i dont' buy things every month)

everything else can be bought at a later date.

Problem is that sometimes I have other time restriction on the other models/projects. I need to pick up some Arty for a FoW tourny versus using that cash for Dreadfleet. Both have the same time limit for me to get them however one I know I will use a lot (the arty); the other one is honestly somewhat interesting at least from the modeling side but will see minimal use after the first month (I've got other games that will take its place in a hurry).

In a vacuum, a budget can be easily changed around, when you start adding events and other things in there it starts losing its flexibility quickly. Now, this becomes more of an issue as you leave the UK. In the UK, GW has an almost stranglehold on the miniature wargaming hobby. In Europe it gets a bit more open, by the time you hit the US there is sections that GW is the rarity not the norm.

Brother Weasel
11-10-2011, 00:31
Problem is that sometimes I have other time restriction on the other models/projects. I need to pick up some Arty for a FoW tourny versus using that cash for Dreadfleet. Both have the same time limit for me to get them however one I know I will use a lot (the arty); the other one is honestly somewhat interesting at least from the modeling side but will see minimal use after the first month (I've got other games that will take its place in a hurry).

In a vacuum, a budget can be easily changed around, when you start adding events and other things in there it starts losing its flexibility quickly. Now, this becomes more of an issue as you leave the UK. In the UK, GW has an almost stranglehold on the miniature wargaming hobby. In Europe it gets a bit more open, by the time you hit the US there is sections that GW is the rarity not the norm.

but again you are talking about less then 1% of the sets they release... space hulk you even had some time (if you read rumor sites:)) and dread fleet was known to be comming, though no one knew what it was... it was known that something secret was comming in the vein of a single release like space hulk...

yea you have to pick and choose between things to buy.. it happens with everything.. do i pick up a box of kans, or buy arkam city, or take the wife to a few nice dinners... as i said, the main thing is that people talk budget and harp on the limited releases, but they are a very small fraction of what's released... 2 releases in the last 3 years... (and that is the start of it, i could easily say 2 releases in 10 years) there may be one next year... so it's looking like one every year or 2... now you have plenty of planing ahead to deal with next years, weather GW tells you or not:) sure we don't know what's comming in november, but those can be gotten in december if you need em and are out of cash on nov....

eron12
11-10-2011, 00:33
But put them away, just on the assumption that Games Workshop might release something good...? Nope, not gonna happen. There're many other companies that show up their upcoming releases, thus ensuring that whatever money I put aside goes into buying those models...

Is saving for a rainy day not common in Denmark? I can understand not putting aside money specifically for Games Workshop, but certainly putting aside some money so you have it incase something big comes out or a limited release shows up is a reasonable idea?

And as a bonus it can be used in emergancies, ie, car breaks down, basement floods etc.

Sgt John Keel
11-10-2011, 15:09
Personally, I appreciated the heads-up before GW replaced nice models due to my limited budget (i.e. I'd allocate more money to the GW funds for the months prior). For example, this time last year I knew that it was likely that GW was going to release a plastic Furioso Dreadnought and plastic Grey Knights soon. I happened to like the metal Furioso and the metal Grey Knights very much, so what did I do? I bought them.

As it turns out, I didn't like the new replacements very much, so I didn't buy any of them.

If I hadn't had any heads up, GW would not have gotten that money. If they had released nicer replacement models, they would've gotten additional money though.

Voss
11-10-2011, 15:18
Is saving for a rainy day not common in Denmark? I can understand not putting aside money specifically for Games Workshop, but certainly putting aside some money so you have it incase something big comes out or a limited release shows up is a reasonable idea?

And as a bonus it can be used in emergancies, ie, car breaks down, basement floods etc.

:wtf: 'Saving for a rainy day' is saving for emergencies. Using emergency money for a game... seems a bit foolish.

Brother Weasel
11-10-2011, 16:50
:wtf: 'Saving for a rainy day' is saving for emergencies. Using emergency money for a game... seems a bit foolish.

So save for future gaming related things...a stock pile of of cash to be used for all those limited releases...

If you don't want to or can't, that's not really the fault of GW...

if these items that that are limited are the reason that the black out angers you... i still don't see the budgetingpart of this argument...

the part i dislike is simply if something is on it's way, that is replacing a mini i might buy before hand, say if i liked the old lemartes, and they all of a suddon have a new one... but that's pretty rare these days as well, as they tend to expand over replace.

eron12
11-10-2011, 17:35
:wtf: 'Saving for a rainy day' is saving for emergencies. Using emergency money for a game... seems a bit foolish.

Saving for a rainy day is not limited to emergencies, it applies to putting aside money for future use. It can mean a rainy day when the roof is leaking, or a rainy day when you want to go to the movies.

If a person is concerned enough about limited releases to want to know months in advance so they can budget the money, saving some cash in case of a limited release is not foolish.

Voss
11-10-2011, 21:42
So save for future gaming related things...a stock pile of of cash to be used for all those limited releases...

If you don't want to or can't, that's not really the fault of GW...

if these items that that are limited are the reason that the black out angers you... i still don't see the budgetingpart of this argument...
I honestly don't care about the limited release products, I just find the idea of saving money for something you know nothing about and can't anticipate to be rather silly. 'All those limited releases' is actually misses point, since they're exceedingly rare. GW has done exactly two, and most companies don't bother. Why save for something that barely happens, and isn't that hard to get? Even if I was interested, Space Hulk hung around locally in stores for almost a year, and I haven't heard of any problems getting dread fleet.



the part i dislike is simply if something is on it's way, that is replacing a mini i might buy before hand, say if i liked the old lemartes, and they all of a suddon have a new one... but that's pretty rare these days as well, as they tend to expand over replace.
They replace existing metals with new plastics almost every release. One of the biggest problems with the necron release is going to be for people who want to find the old models, in a lot of places they are unavailable already, and once people realize what they want, the price gougers will descend.

Brother Weasel
11-10-2011, 22:55
I honestly don't care about the limited release products, I just find the idea of saving money for something you know nothing about and can't anticipate to be rather silly. 'All those limited releases' is actually misses point, since they're exceedingly rare. GW has done exactly two, and most companies don't bother. Why save for something that barely happens, and isn't that hard to get? Even if I was interested, Space Hulk hung around locally in stores for almost a year, and I haven't heard of any problems getting dread fleet.

that's my point. if you don't care about 2 releases then the problem people have with the blackout is not about budget... [if you readmy earlier posts ithink you'de see what i'msaying.



They replace existing metals with new plastics almost every release. One of the biggest problems with the necron release is going to be for people who want to find the old models, in a lot of places they are unavailable already, and once people realize what they want, the price gougers will descend.

always hapeens when things go out of print... blackout doesn't really change that...

Voss
11-10-2011, 23:31
that's my point. if you don't care about 2 releases then the problem people have with the blackout is not about budget... [if you readmy earlier posts ithink you'de see what i'msaying.
Er, no. Its just not a problem for me. I'm not going to assume my indifference to the limited edition stuff is universal. From what I did read in your early posts the problem seems to be it isn't a problem for you, so you don't understand why anyone else would find it problematic.




always hapeens when things go out of print... blackout doesn't really change that...
Actually, it changes it a lot. With previous releases people have known whats coming, so they can try to find existing models before GW ends their availability. In the case of the necrons, it still isn't clear whats going to be redone or not (though anything not redone is likely to be finecasted), but the models are _already_ unavailable. The window is closed before info is available.

Gir
12-10-2011, 00:33
I just find the idea of saving money for something you know nothing about and can't anticipate to be rather silly.

I'm currently saving for a car I've never seen and a house that doesn't exists yet. Is that silly?

Brother Weasel
12-10-2011, 01:34
Er, no. Its just not a problem for me. I'm not going to assume my indifference to the limited edition stuff is universal. From what I did read in your early posts the problem seems to be it isn't a problem for you, so you don't understand why anyone else would find it problematic.

you are right, i don't see why it's a problem. if you want it, plan ahead, done. you (not you Voss, you collective people who use budgetas a blackout problem) butit's my opinion on it, just find it to be... an easily solvable problem.



Actually, it changes it a lot. With previous releases people have known whats coming, so they can try to find existing models before GW ends their availability. In the case of the necrons, it still isn't clear whats going to be redone or not (though anything not redone is likely to be finecasted), but the models are _already_ unavailable. The window is closed before info is available.

I cansee that problem, i would again say it's a limited group. with previous releases gw have announced them1-2 months ahead, approx some more some less. but those are only people rely only on gw who play thatarmy anddecide they need stuff that is oop...

as i've said, i'm not a fan of it. even a backpage teaser would be better then nothing, but i'm not gonna cry gloom and doom about not, knowing.

Omniassiah
12-10-2011, 02:38
I'm currently saving for a car I've never seen and a house that doesn't exists yet. Is that silly?

While you have never seen the specific house or car you are going to buy, I bet you could tell me a lot about them. When I was saving for a car I didn't know which car it was specifically, but I could tell you that it was going to be a 4-door coupe with a standard transmission in the 15-20k mark. Thing is with cars and houses there are a lot of them that do the same thing slightly different. So you really don't need specifics as you'll have choices when your able to buy.

With a limited release game, I'll be keeping money put away for something that I will have no clue that I'd even want when it does come out. To keep with the car analogy imagine saving up for a car. But only a single car will be available to you at an unknown time. You don't know what type of car it will be or what it may cost. Will you want that car? Would you keep that money saved away with the possibility that maybe the next car will be something your want? Now does that sound silly?

Gir
12-10-2011, 03:41
While you have never seen the specific house or car you are going to buy, I bet you could tell me a lot about them. When I was saving for a car I didn't know which car it was specifically, but I could tell you that it was going to be a 4-door coupe with a standard transmission in the 15-20k mark. Thing is with cars and houses there are a lot of them that do the same thing slightly different. So you really don't need specifics as you'll have choices when your able to buy.

With a limited release game, I'll be keeping money put away for something that I will have no clue that I'd even want when it does come out. To keep with the car analogy imagine saving up for a car. But only a single car will be available to you at an unknown time. You don't know what type of car it will be or what it may cost. Will you want that car? Would you keep that money saved away with the possibility that maybe the next car will be something your want? Now does that sound silly?

A 4 door coupe? That's impressive.

But seriously, I know exactly what I want from a car: rwd, 6 speed manual coupe for 35-40k. Such a car does not exist, but there is a slight possibility that one like that will come out next year. If it doesn't, I keep waiting and saving until one does.

The point is, I know what I want, and I'm going to keep putting money aside for it until it becomes available. Something Necron players can also do (and I have a Necron playing friend that is doing just that. The longer until release, the more he can buy when they finally come out).

doomscape
12-10-2011, 16:10
Boy, I can't imagine budgeting for new releases. Barring a worldwide plastic apocalypse, I figure that stuff will be here come next year, year after that, five years down the line. I've been budgeting money to buy metal models, older the better. Maybe that makes me a bit bizarre.

Just my two p.

f2k
12-10-2011, 19:25
Is saving for a rainy day not common in Denmark? I can understand not putting aside money specifically for Games Workshop, but certainly putting aside some money so you have it incase something big comes out or a limited release shows up is a reasonable idea?

And as a bonus it can be used in emergancies, ie, car breaks down, basement floods etc.

And those money put away from that sort of emergency is just that: money for an emergency. Theyíre not there to be used whenever I fell like going out and having a drink or Games Workshop releases something new and shinny...

In fact, I have several different savings accounts: one for everyday use, one for my student loan, one for long-term savings, and one for ďnon-essential expensesĒ. Games Workshop is very much a non-essential expense and so comes out of that account. However, if Privateer Press has showcased a new abslolutely-must-have model, then whatever money is on that account is used for that model. If Games Workshop then suddenly springs a game like Dreadfleet on me... Well, luckily for them I actually had a slight surplus on that account and so I could buy the game.

Point is: had Privateer Press released that cool must-have model a week before Dreadfleet than the account might have been empty and so I wouldnít have bought the game. However, had I know beforehand that the game was coming, what it was about, and how much it would cost I would have made sure that the money was there.


:wtf: 'Saving for a rainy day' is saving for emergencies. Using emergency money for a game... seems a bit foolish.

Indeed.


So save for future gaming related things...a stock pile of of cash to be used for all those limited releases...

If you don't want to or can't, that's not really the fault of GW....

Iím not sure youíve entirely understood whatís being said...

Itís not that weíre unwilling to save money. Itís that those money are being saved so we can use them at some point. And Games Workshop is not the only manufacture of cool stuff out there so that point may be at any time and for any purpose.

However, if given enough warning weíll make sure that the time and purpose coincides with the new release...

Look at it this way: if I have a surplus of cash and Privateer Press releases a must-have model, why shouldnít I buy that model? Just because I might need those money for a sudden unexpected release by Games Workshop? Naaah, ainít gonna happen...


you are right, i don't see why it's a problem. if you want it, plan ahead, done. you (not you Voss, you collective people who use budgetas a blackout problem) butit's my opinion on it, just find it to be... an easily solvable problem.


But how can you plan ahead when you donít know whatís going to be released?

That, in a nutshell, is the entire issue. The secrecy that Games Workshop has now cloaked themselves behind is preventing us from planning ahead and saving up for a big, and fairly expensive, box set.

eron12
12-10-2011, 20:43
And those money put away from that sort of emergency is just that: money for an emergency. Theyíre not there to be used whenever I fell like going out and having a drink or Games Workshop releases something new and shinny...

Perhaps you should reread my post. I'm not advocating spending emergancy funds on minis. I'm saying that as a bonus you can use saved hobby money to cover emergancies. If my car breaks down and ends up being a far more costly repair than originally estamated, then I can pull from my hobby money as well as from emergancy money to cover it.


In fact, I have several different savings accounts: one for everyday use, one for my student loan, one for long-term savings, and one for ďnon-essential expensesĒ.

And what people are saying is that if you are that concerned about missing a limited edition release, put some money aside in another acount for possible limited edition releases. Considering it's only happened twice, it wouldn't take much to set it aside.



Games Workshop is very much a non-essential expense and so comes out of that account. However, if Privateer Press has showcased a new abslolutely-must-have model, then whatever money is on that account is used for that model. If Games Workshop then suddenly springs a game like Dreadfleet on me... Well, luckily for them I actually had a slight surplus on that account and so I could buy the game.

Point is: had Privateer Press released that cool must-have model a week before Dreadfleet than the account might have been empty and so I wouldnít have bought the game. However, had I know beforehand that the game was coming, what it was about, and how much it would cost I would have made sure that the money was there.

If the PP mini was the aboslute must have you claimed, then you would have bought it irregardless, (as by definition, it was a must have). I'm not sure how knowing about dreadfleet ahead of time would have changed things. Either you could only affford one or you could afford both, preknowledge doesn't change things.


Itís not that weíre unwilling to save money. Itís that those money are being saved so we can use them at some point. And Games Workshop is not the only manufacture of cool stuff out there so that point may be at any time and for any purpose.

Again, if you are that concerned about missing a limited release, put aside some money where the spending point is not any time, any purpose. Poof, problem solved.


However, if given enough warning weíll make sure that the time and purpose coincides with the new release...

Look at it this way: if I have a surplus of cash and Privateer Press releases a must-have model, why shouldnít I buy that model? Just because I might need those money for a sudden unexpected release by Games Workshop? Naaah, ainít gonna happen...

Then don't complain if it does happen. You know the possibility exists, you know how to solve the problem (save for the possible new release). You have no one to blame but yourself for not implimenting the solution.


But how can you plan ahead when you donít know whatís going to be released?

Planing for unexpected circumstances is an important life skill.


That, in a nutshell, is the entire issue. The secrecy that Games Workshop has now cloaked themselves behind is preventing us from planning ahead and saving up for a big, and fairly expensive, box set.

No it's not. You are still free to plan and save. Would you have saved more if you knew Dreadfleet was coming? If not, then not knowing didn't change anything. If you would have, then save up the money now, put it into an account and don't touch it, then you'll have it if it happens again.

rodmillard
12-10-2011, 20:55
If the PP mini was the aboslute must have you claimed, then you would have bought it irregardless, (as by definition, it was a must have). I'm not sure how knowing about dreadfleet ahead of time would have changed things. Either you could only affford one or you could afford both, preknowledge doesn't change things.


I think you have missed the point - he could only afford one and, not knowing dread fleet was coming would have emptied the account to buy the PP mini leaving him unable to buy dread fleet. Whereas if GW had let us know something was coming (even if it was just a cryptic announcement of a new limited edition box set without any specifics) he could have waited to see what it was, safe in the knowledge that the PP mini would still be available this time next year, by which time the GW limited edition would have sold out.

BFalcon
12-10-2011, 21:39
f2k: I agree - with very limited funds, I can afford to either pay off debts, put more money into the (fledgling) business or (if I consider it important enough) a mini purchase. As it happens, Dread(ful)fleet didn't appeal in the slightest, but if that had been a new Blood Bowl release, I'd have needed all my cash, possibly for a couple of months, just to afford it.

I'd sooner know as early as possible that a release is coming - that way I can avoid making extra purchases that can be delayed until later... for example, if I decide I'd like another blood bowl team and have the money available... if a company then declares that they're bringing out a product that I care about that won't be rereleased, I'd be a little upset.

Not everyone has the spare funds available to be able to raise 70+ quid in under a month... most people I know have, at least, already spent their upcoming pay packet by the time it arrives... at least insofar as they've already worked out what to spend it on.

Dyrnwyn
12-10-2011, 23:38
If the PP mini was the aboslute must have you claimed, then you would have bought it irregardless, (as by definition, it was a must have). I'm not sure how knowing about dreadfleet ahead of time would have changed things. Either you could only affford one or you could afford both, preknowledge doesn't change things.
The difference being the PP model is not limited edition, while the GW box is - he could hld off on buying the PP model and use his discretionary funds to buy the box. But because GW was so secretive, he had no inkling the box was even a thing, so he bought the PP model instead.

Also, 'irregardless' is a double negative. The word you were looking for is 'regardless.'




Again, if you are that concerned about missing a limited release, put aside some money where the spending point is not any time, any purpose. Poof, problem solved.
it seems like a silly idea to put money aside for the express purposes of limited release items, when as you yourself noted that they are exceedingly rare.



Then don't complain if it does happen. You know the possibility exists, you know how to solve the problem (save for the possible new release). You have no one to blame but yourself for not implimenting the solution.
The possibility exists that tomorrow you will be shot by a mugger and die. You knew the possibility exists, you have no one to blame but yourself for failing to purchase and wear a bulletproof vest. That's the argument you are making here, and I think you can see how plainly absurd it is. GW is not some monolithic force of nature which we can do nothing but prepare for and endure. It's a company of people, and they make bad decisions the same as anyone else. Secrecy is a bad one.

With limited edition items, we ought to hear lots of fanfare and be exited about them - Space Hulk was amazing at this. Dreadfleet isn't.



Planing for unexpected circumstances is an important life skill.
Yes, but this shouldn't be an unexpected circumstance. This is a commercial release of a product. GW's secrecy does nothing but shoot themselves in the foot.

eron12
13-10-2011, 05:31
Also, 'irregardless' is a double negative. The word you were looking for is 'regardless.'

Thanks for pointing this out. I learned something.


it seems like a silly idea to put money aside for the express purposes of limited release items, when as you yourself noted that they are exceedingly rare.

I tend to agree, but then I don't care enough about limited edition releases to go online and complain to total strangers about lack of information regarding them. If I did care that much, putting aside some cash to make sure I could get them doesn't seem so silly.


The possibility exists that tomorrow you will be shot by a mugger and die. You knew the possibility exists, you have no one to blame but yourself for failing to purchase and wear a bulletproof vest. That's the argument you are making here, and I think you can see how plainly absurd it is.

If that happens, rest assured that I won't be online complaining about it. :)

Actually, I don't see it as absurd at all. Who else is to blame for me failing to purchase and wear a bulletproff vest? It's not the mugger's fault. It's his fault for trying to mug me and shooting me, but me not having a vest can't be laid at his feet.

It's not my fault the mugger shot me, but it is my fault I wasn't prepared.

To bring this back on topic, GW is responsible for their actions (not giving information about releases) but we have to be responsible for ours. GW cannot prevent us from saving or force us to spend money.


GW is not some monolithic force of nature which we can do nothing but prepare for and endure. It's a company of people, and they make bad decisions the same as anyone else. Secrecy is a bad one.

Secrecy may be a bad decision, but it is absurd to blame GW for the actions we take or fail to take. GW not telling us about things does not keep us from saving.



With limited edition items, we ought to hear lots of fanfare and be exited about them - Space Hulk was amazing at this. Dreadfleet isn't.


Yes, but this shouldn't be an unexpected circumstance. This is a commercial release of a product. GW's secrecy does nothing but shoot themselves in the foot.

I agree, and tend to think GW missed the ball on this one. However, I don't agree with all the whining. It may have been better for GW to share information, but we can't expect GW to hold our hand and think for us. The solution (saving and budgeting) is there, it's not GWs fault if we don't take it.

rodmillard
13-10-2011, 19:54
To bring this back on topic, GW is responsible for their actions (not giving information about releases) but we have to be responsible for ours. GW cannot prevent us from saving or force us to spend money.

...

Secrecy may be a bad decision, but it is absurd to blame GW for the actions we take or fail to take. GW not telling us about things does not keep us from saving.

...

I agree, and tend to think GW missed the ball on this one. However, I don't agree with all the whining. It may have been better for GW to share information, but we can't expect GW to hold our hand and think for us. The solution (saving and budgeting) is there, it's not GWs fault if we don't take it.

Actually, the whole "I bought the new XYZ release and as a result can't afford to buy Dreadfleet" argument may be an (unintended?) coup for GW over the competition.

GW must be aware that the world is on the edge of another financial crisis ... they must be aware that UK unemployment is at record levels while the average wage for those of us lucky enough to be in work has dropped 10% since last year ... they must be aware that inflation is so high in the UK that it is actually catching up with their annual price rise (surely?! They can't be THAT ignorant of current events...)

In that situation, a policy of secretive, limited editition releases with minimal fanfare will encourage some (by no means all, but some) of their customers NOT to buy their competitors products, just in case there is another surprise limited edition release. The timing of this release to coincide with the launch of the Warmachine 2 player box and the Warpath preorders was probably serendipitous, but if GW execs learn anything from the dreadfleet release I suspect it will be that this kind of policy can stop people buying from the competition.

jack da greenskin
13-10-2011, 21:13
but if GW execs learn anything from the dreadfleet release I suspect it will be that this kind of policy can stop people buying from the competition.

I didnt buy DF but did buy the warmachine box, along with pre-ordering some warpath.

Why? Because I'd been excited for the warmachine one for a while, and I love mantic and know warpath will be well supported.

Just what I did. I also made the thread linking the release of DF with the 2 player box. Mutual agreement was they werent planned to co-incide however.

rodmillard
13-10-2011, 23:32
I also made the thread linking the release of DF with the 2 player box. Mutual agreement was they werent planned to co-incide however.

Like I said, serendipitous. But that doesn't mean they won't do it deliberately in future [/cynicism]

Gir
14-10-2011, 03:07
Mutual agreement was they werent planned to co-incide however.

If anyone planned it to coincide it was PP, not GW.

Spectrar Ghost
14-10-2011, 03:21
???

How would they plan that? Which would be easier, for GW to time the DF release to the public knowledge of the WM and WP product, or for PP to penetrate the veil of secrecy GW has erected in time to plan their release to coincide? And if GW didn't want this, once PP released the info, what's to stop them from changing the (still officially secret) date on PP?

I think that's a real stretch, Gir.

ehlijen
14-10-2011, 07:00
Actually, the whole "I bought the new XYZ release and as a result can't afford to buy Dreadfleet" argument may be an (unintended?) coup for GW over the competition.

[...]

In that situation, a policy of secretive, limited editition releases with minimal fanfare will encourage some (by no means all, but some) of their customers NOT to buy their competitors products, just in case there is another surprise limited edition release. The timing of this release to coincide with the launch of the Warmachine 2 player box and the Warpath preorders was probably serendipitous, but if GW execs learn anything from the dreadfleet release I suspect it will be that this kind of policy can stop people buying from the competition.

That's a risky trick and will only work if you can count on a significant number of customers being both already into GW so that they are aware of their product release policies and loyal enough to GW to put waiting for something that may or may not come ahead of a cool model they can see and evaluate now.

The plan you describe will not work on short term customers, as those tend to leave before building up any new release expectation excitment or on those who play non GW wargames, as they are rarely short on opportunities to spend their wargaming budget elsewhere. In other words, this plan would require large numbers of long term GW exclusive or near exclusive fans, the very kind of customer everyone accuses GW of constantly displeasing and driving away.

I therefore do not believe that this is their intention.

Gir
14-10-2011, 08:24
???

How would they plan that? Which would be easier, for GW to time the DF release to the public knowledge of the WM and WP product, or for PP to penetrate the veil of secrecy GW has erected in time to plan their release to coincide? And if GW didn't want this, once PP released the info, what's to stop them from changing the (still officially secret) date on PP?

I think that's a real stretch, Gir.

I can call it now that the next boxed game will come out in September.

Also, do you really think GW care what PP do? They're still hardly a blip on the radar.

shelfunit.
14-10-2011, 10:55
Also, do you really think GW care what PP do? They're still hardly a blip on the radar.

The thing about "blips" on radar is that they tend to be things that are highly dangerous and often take down something big (at least in films anyway :p )

ehlijen
14-10-2011, 12:30
The thing about "blips" on radar is that they tend to be things that are highly dangerous and often take down something big (at least in films anyway :p )

But in the films there is only ever one blip on an empty radar :p

In the real world there's so many blips it takes a trained professional to figure out which blip is what and which are dangerous (most aren't).

Spectrar Ghost
14-10-2011, 12:31
That's a risky trick and will only work if you can count on a significant number of customers being both already into GW so that they are aware of their product release policies and loyal enough to GW to put waiting for something that may or may not come ahead of a cool model they can see and evaluate now.

...

I therefore do not believe that this is their intention.

Nor do I. My point was it's more likely than the converse.

Dai-Mongar
14-10-2011, 13:24
So this thread is about people complaining that GW have twice released unannounced, updated, limited edition versions of games that are many years out of print and ridiculously expensive to buy in the first place?
Is getting an unopened copy of new Space Hulk or Dread Fleet any more difficult than getting a copy of 1st ed SH or rules and a fleet for Man O War?
As to the original point of this thread, which seems to have been lost, I do think that the staff, or managers at least, should be fully informed about new releases. That includes knowing the rules and having built up and painted the models.

Voss
14-10-2011, 13:36
So this thread is about people complaining that GW have twice released unannounced, updated, limited edition versions of games

Not entirely. Thats the minor point that a handful of people have become fixated on, but the effect on major releases is also present.

Dai-Mongar
14-10-2011, 13:44
I suppose I just can't see the validity of complaining about lack of advance information on releases that aren't limited edition. Beyond the kneejerk reaction of wishing I had the money straight away to buy all the shiny new toys, if I want them, I can always save up and buy them later.

Tay051173096
14-10-2011, 17:58
I suppose I just can't see the validity of complaining about lack of advance information on releases that aren't limited edition. Beyond the kneejerk reaction of wishing I had the money straight away to buy all the shiny new toys, if I want them, I can always save up and buy them later.

It goes like this ( sort of)

By having a picture on the inside back cover of whats comming next month GW creates "hype".

Hype then creates talk among the websites and gamers reaching people that do not have the WD, this creates "intrest".

Interest gets people into the stores or websites to look and buy, this creates GW "profit".

Profit then get reinvested into new models, books and games (like space hulk and dreadfleet).

But GW has stopped that...

No picture = No hype

No hype = No interest

No interest = Less profit

Less profit = Less Shinies :cries:


Ok its probaly not that severe but if you picked up this month WD and compared it to other magazines you would wonder what was happening next month.

yabbadabba
14-10-2011, 21:55
So this thread is about people complaining that GW have twice released unannounced, updated, limited edition versions of games that are many years out of print and ridiculously expensive to buy in the first place? For me its more about people complaining about something that a) might have a legitimate and necessary purpose but they choose not to see it that way and b) is out of their control.

One thing we haven't had is the slightest indication from within the company what they hope to achieve with this approach, or why they have to do it. Its been wrapped up tighter than the actual release details.

One of the things you get used on Warseer is that, regardless of the rights and wrongs, its easier to see GWs actions through a victim's lens; everything they do that you disagree with is either because GW hate you or they are incompetant.

I have issues with GWs upper management and the "Inner Circle" culture they have developed. In some respects Warseer is beginning to represent a very similar approach to thinking. Hey ho.

All this secrecy thing doesn't affect me at the moment as I am an old student with a family to support. When I was a staff member the internal rumours just began to ruin the release, especially the play test photocopy army books. I began to refuse to look at stuff until it hit my shop. But we all have different needs and approaches to these things.

In the end even the most rabid internal fanboi would have trouble justifying this action in terms of sales so there must be a legitimate reason.

BFalcon
15-10-2011, 02:26
Yabba: I feel that it was an ill-guided marketing ploy - there must have been a reason for it, but without the "inner circle" as you call it actually telling us, we have no choice but to speculate.

One possible reason may be if previous releases had PDFs of the rules appearing on illegal download sites prior to launch, maybe? Maybe someone's getting paranoid, or just maybe someone doesn't know their job and thought it would boost sales, whereas (I feel) this approach is better suited to a non-Limited-Edition release where initial sales don't matter so much... either way, you have to wonder just why they chose this route for this release...

As you say, it just doesn't seem to make sense - there's a piece of the puzzle missing...

iamfanboy
15-10-2011, 03:48
It has to be from New Line Cinema's contract requirements for secrecy. The only reason I can think of.

Doesn't mean it's not stupid, but that's the only reason I can see.

Voss
15-10-2011, 04:53
Ok its probaly not that severe but if you picked up this month WD and compared it to other magazines you would wonder what was happening next month.

I also think of the staff at the indie store I used to shop at.
"So what are we ordering from Games Workshop this month?"
"We... don't know"
"What?"
"We don't know whats coming out, so we don't know what to order. It doesn't matter anyway, since once we finally find out, there is a 50/50 chance that it won't get here by the release day, so our customers will just order elsewhere anyway."
"#*%&!"


One thing we haven't had is the slightest indication from within the company what they hope to achieve with this approach, or why they have to do it. Its been wrapped up tighter than the actual release details.
Wasn't there some statement from a retail seminar at one of the recent GD's which essentially said it was an 'experiment' that could be repealed if there was enough backlash?
That made it sound like they were testing to see if a smaller release window had a positive [or negative] affect on sales

paddyalexander
15-10-2011, 07:26
The thing that is also happening is that any advance information the community are getting is from leaks. Often what we end up with are loose outlines of the rules for armies based on early playtest material and fuzzy pictures.

Given that the release date for the new Necrons is November 5th it means that White Dwarf would be out in the shops only days before the products release, and arrive to most subscribers weeks after the fact.

Dispite that I now have seen pictures of the new models and I am interested in the army when yesterday I had no interest and that I can know work some purchases into my gaming budget along with all of the upcomming products I know about from Wyerd, PP, Corvis Beli and X-box.

I would not have known about that release otherwise because I do not buy White Dwarf, I'll occasionaly "read" a friends copy. I don't visit the gwPLC website because it makes Internet Explorer freeze, once so badly I had to reset my computer.

So from finding out about this early gwPLC might get some of my money - trough an indie story or online discounter - that it absoulutly would not have gotten otherwise.

Sekhmet
15-10-2011, 07:35
International statute of secrecy... Is that a Harry Potter reference?

eron12
15-10-2011, 08:26
So from finding out about this early gwPLC might get some of my money - trough an indie story or online discounter - that it absoulutly would not have gotten otherwise.

Is there some reason you would not have bought anything after November 5, if that was the day you first found out about it?

yabbadabba
15-10-2011, 09:38
Wasn't there some statement from a retail seminar at one of the recent GD's which essentially said it was an 'experiment' that could be repealed if there was enough backlash?
That made it sound like they were testing to see if a smaller release window had a positive [or negative] affect on sales Don't remember mate but if this is the case then it does confirm two things to me
1) Inner Circle
2) There is either nobody left in the company with the length of service to remember when GW did do this, or they have been ignored.

As I have said before as long as GW has its current corporate structure and culture I will never rule out stupidity in their decision making :(. You don't mess around with 25% sales revenue.

f2k
15-10-2011, 10:07
And what people are saying is that if you are that concerned about missing a limited edition release, put some money aside in another acount for possible limited edition releases. Considering it's only happened twice, it wouldn't take much to set it aside.

Only happened twice? Surely, you are aware that there other companies out there beside Games Workshop, right?

In any case, the whole point is that I wonít be putting money away from something that might, but probably wonít, happen. My gaming budget is tight enough as it is, without having to put part of it away for a possible limited release that might happen at some unspecified time in the future...


If the PP mini was the aboslute must have you claimed, then you would have bought it irregardless, (as by definition, it was a must have). I'm not sure how knowing about dreadfleet ahead of time would have changed things. Either you could only affford one or you could afford both, preknowledge doesn't change things.

Had I had the money at that point in time then yes, I would. Please remember that must-have is not the same as can-have...

Believe me, Iíve missed many things in my life because of lacking funds. Tough luck, that's what happens when youíre a student or unemployed as I am right now.

Had I known that Dreadfleet would be coming then I would have had several options. If both were limited, then I would have had to make do with just one or have transferred extra money to my hobby account Ė if possible, of course. If one was a non-limited release (as Privateer Press tends to be) then I could have put that off for a few months. If neither were limited, then I could simple have bought the one I wanted the most and waited a few months before buying the next.

However, all of that is entirely besides the point...

The point is that, not knowing that Dreadfleet was coming, I would have spend those money of the Privateer Press model instead. And thus I wouldnít have had any money left for Dreadfleet. Had I known that Dreadfleet was coming I wouldnít have bought any models for several months, wanting to save the money so I had enough for when the game was released.



Planing for unexpected circumstances is an important life skill.


Sure. And Iím certainly planning for all important circumstances that I can think of. But buying non-essential luxury items as plastic soldiers are not important enough to warrant that kind of planning. I simply do not currently have enough money that I can put aside for two kinds of hobby-related releases. Iíve got one account for that, and thatís the money Iím going to use. And if I donít have enough money for a limited release... Well... Tough luck...



No it's not. You are still free to plan and save. Would you have saved more if you knew Dreadfleet was coming? If not, then not knowing didn't change anything. If you would have, then save up the money now, put it into an account and don't touch it, then you'll have it if it happens again.

Possibly. If I had had the means to do so...

More likely, I wouldnít have bought anything for several months before the release to ensure that I had the money needed.

Thus, knowing is important. If I know that I have a big expense coming up then I can save my money. If I donít know that itís coming... Well... Then Iíll either have to go without or, if itís important enough, try to scrounge some money from other accounts and my piggybank to cover it...

yabbadabba
15-10-2011, 10:10
Please remember that must-have is not the same as can-have... Might be where I fall down. The entire of wargaming, no matter how much I love it, falls into the latter.

f2k
15-10-2011, 10:31
Might be where I fall down. The entire of wargaming, no matter how much I love it, falls into the latter.

Yeah, I know the feeling...

To keep myself in check I began looking at every purchase in terms of food. Every time I bought something I would ask myself: "how many days of food is this worth"?
Then, once I realised that most of the Games Workshop boxes was worth two to three days of food (creeping up towards a full week worth of food for the big sets), I simply gave up on the hobby. It hurt like hell to leave it all behind but needs must, as they say, and you canít eat plastic so...

Itís only now, after a long gruelling time at university, that Iím again able to put a bit of money aside for this hobby. But old habits die hard and, even considering the Maelstrom rebate, Dreadfleet still clocks in at more than a weekís worth of food.

Puts a whole new perspective on the hobby, thinking like that...

Darnok
15-10-2011, 10:37
Dreadfleet still clocks in at more than a weekís worth of food.

Puts a whole new perspective on the hobby, thinking like that...

You must eat expensive, because at retail price I can eat a months worth...

But please try to keep pricing discussion in the thread we have for that (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209297).


Darnok [=I=]

Tay051173096
15-10-2011, 10:39
I judge it by how many hours work it costs... With 1 in 5 of my age bracket out of work trying to get a better job is hard, last job I applied for was against 50 other people.

Oh well stick to 20-30 pounds a month for wargaming

Darnok, how many people are you feeding? Fuel and bills rise every week it feels like...

f2k
15-10-2011, 10:53
You must eat expensive, because at retail price I can eat a months worth...

But please try to keep pricing discussion in the thread we have for that (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209297).


Darnok [=I=]

Going a bit off topic, I know...

But yes, food is incredibly expensive here in Denmark. On the few occasions I’ve travel abroad I’ve always been amazed at how cheap things can be...

Though I should perhaps add that here I’m talking about what I could theoretically get. My budget is a sort of hard limit to what I can allow myself to spend – though I don’t always keep to it. Some weeks I spend less money, some weeks I spend much more – usually because I bought a lot of stuff for my freezer.

Also, there’s a question of the quality of food that I want. I spend a long time buying and eating the cheapest filled-with-all-kinds-of-nasty-stuff food. These days I try to buy food that’s of a bit better quality – though, of course, also more expensive as a result.

If I really wanted to I could probably stretch Dreadfleet’s worth to cover two weeks or so – give and take a few days. But then I’d be eating really cheap and crappy food. I once spend an entire month on nothing but oatmeal, pasta and ketchup. Wasn’t much fun, won’t be doing that again...

I guess that what I’m saying is that we all got our priorities. I would rather have a fairly good and healthy diet than I’d have a few ounces of plastic – regardless of how nice that plastic looks...

Sorry ‘bout going entirely off topic but I wanted to reply to that. Gonna shut up now...


Edit: Given the monthly payment I'm usually asking, Dreadfleet would be slightly more than seven and a half hours of work - a full day of work.

yabbadabba
15-10-2011, 11:39
Puts a whole new perspective on the hobby, thinking like that... I am going to disagree, and this does fit into the current thread.

This is a luxury like the vast majority of stuff we think we "need" in the Western world. It doesn't work to compare it to anything else but other luxury items including this internet connection I am using. I you haven't got those basics covered then debating the "worth" of a luxury item is a non-argument.

This is where it fits into the thread.

I'd rather wait until after a release, with the book in my hand, before commiting to purchases. I can take my time, relax and really get to grips with a product before commiting to resources. Its taken me 3 years to take my FoW US Paras beyond just the basics of an HQ and two rifle platoons. I will also buy some products unseen but only after careful consideration, and I have already accepted that it will mean that sometimes I miss out. Space Hulk is a good example.

This makes me GWs worst customer. I don't go silly every time a new release comes out and buy it, not even for the armies I collect. The release of a new edition has me revising what I have, not chasing what I don't. A limited release doesn't drive me to sacrifice other necessaries just to get it. I am passionate and dedicated wargamer, but I am not an obsessed one. I don't have an overly competitive edge so there is no need to get the latest instant win button or to examine every loophole for advantage, or to exploit every benefit to the maximum. These are all factors which GW and other companies bank on to create a new release buzz - for whatever reason the need to have now. Because I don't fit those facets, GW could release everything on a ltd release pattern and it still wouldn't shift me.

This is probably why, no matter how much people reasonably justify it, I see no need for people to know in advance what is coming out. I can see a need for GW, but I am not here for their benefit, I am here for mine.

f2k
15-10-2011, 13:47
Your point about luxury items is well taken.

However, I'm still of the opinion that for me, as a customer, there is a need to know what's coming. Luxury item or not, if it's something I want then I need to put away the money needed to buy it.

Does it matter to Games Workshop whether or not I have the money to buy a limited release here and now? Most likely not Ė someone else will probably pick up ďmyĒ copy of the box anyway (even though my local shop does seem to have some really serious issues actually selling Dreadfleet) and so the loss is entirely mine.
Does it matter to me then? Absolutely! Being unemployed I simply cannot come up with that kind of money on a regular basis and so need a few months of warning so I can put the needed money aside.

And this, I believe, is where the talk about prices fits into this thread. The prices, in my opinion at least, are now at a level where I can afford no more than a box or so every month. If itís more than that then I need time in order to put away enough money for whatever it is I want.

Thus, in a perverse way, the fear that Games Workshop seems to have about rumours and sneak peeks hurting sales is actually true. If I know thereís something big coming up then Iíll stop buying for a couple of months in order to save my money.
Conversely however, if I donít know that something big is coming up then Iíll spend those money as they come in, buying a single box of whatever takes my fancy that month. Thus, the lack of rumours is actually also hurting sales as it means that when the big limited edition splash release happens then Iíll have spent my money on something else. And, mind you, that ďsomething elseĒ is quite likely to be from other companies than Games Workshop.

I guess itís a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-donít scenario. Whatever Games Workshop does it might cost them a sale. However, keep in mind that no rumours means that Iím quite likely to go and spend my money elsewhere that month while a good solid rumour is likely to have me saving money so I can buy whatever it is Games Workshop is releasing.

BigRob
15-10-2011, 15:37
I am going to disagree, and this does fit into the current thread.

This is a luxury like the vast majority of stuff we think we "need" in the Western world. It doesn't work to compare it to anything else but other luxury items including this internet connection I am using. I you haven't got those basics covered then debating the "worth" of a luxury item is a non-argument.

This is where it fits into the thread.

I'd rather wait until after a release, with the book in my hand, before commiting to purchases. I can take my time, relax and really get to grips with a product before commiting to resources. Its taken me 3 years to take my FoW US Paras beyond just the basics of an HQ and two rifle platoons. I will also buy some products unseen but only after careful consideration, and I have already accepted that it will mean that sometimes I miss out. Space Hulk is a good example.

This makes me GWs worst customer. I don't go silly every time a new release comes out and buy it, not even for the armies I collect. The release of a new edition has me revising what I have, not chasing what I don't. A limited release doesn't drive me to sacrifice other necessaries just to get it. I am passionate and dedicated wargamer, but I am not an obsessed one. I don't have an overly competitive edge so there is no need to get the latest instant win button or to examine every loophole for advantage, or to exploit every benefit to the maximum. These are all factors which GW and other companies bank on to create a new release buzz - for whatever reason the need to have now. Because I don't fit those facets, GW could release everything on a ltd release pattern and it still wouldn't shift me.

This is probably why, no matter how much people reasonably justify it, I see no need for people to know in advance what is coming out. I can see a need for GW, but I am not here for their benefit, I am here for mine.

What he just said.

(Although I still like seeing things in sneak peeks and trailers :D )

BFalcon
15-10-2011, 21:37
Yabba: I'm not one to go mad over releases either, but it does help to be able to plan ahead - and I'd prefer it if true fans and players could grab a limited release instead of price gougers buying them all up - they seem to be the main ones with money reserves big enough to buy at really short notice. It does annoy me when I see Space Hulk on BIN on ebay for £225... when a player could be enjoying it right now, having paid a fraction of that amount.

Tay051173096
15-10-2011, 21:40
Well its seems odd that BoW have a larger group of images of the new necrons, do you think this was a delibrate leak or a stuff up?

GW is quiet but the news black out is a fail on this one it seems...

It will be interesting to see if this changes anything.

jack da greenskin
16-10-2011, 10:30
Is it me or does anyone else find it kinda funny that GW try to contain all this info, dont put a "next month" page in WD and havent promoted anything to do with necrons....

And beasts of war make a mockery of them by posting a bajillion pictures of the new stuff, advertise it's release date and are encouraging people to order it :p

rodmillard
16-10-2011, 11:26
Pre-orders are up on Wayland now as well... but not GW :wtf:

Tay051173096
16-10-2011, 11:56
What laws affect showing images of another company? I presume its legal...

Free adverts I supose.

DarkLordBelial
16-10-2011, 12:11
What laws affect showing images of another company? I presume its legal...

Free adverts I supose.

If the images were taken by GW then they own the copyright and could force anyone to remove them.

Although I wouldn't rule out the fact that they may have been deliberately leaked by GW. The secrecy policy may be a double bluff. Tell people you won't release any advance information and then leak it out through unofficial chanels - drums up more hype and talk than your own advance release PR and gives the opportunity to feed false information should you wish to divert attention.

rodmillard
16-10-2011, 12:21
Although I wouldn't rule out the fact that they may have been deliberately leaked by GW. The secrecy policy may be a double bluff. Tell people you won't release any advance information and then leak it out through unofficial chanels - drums up more hype and talk than your own advance release PR and gives the opportunity to feed false information should you wish to divert attention.

This. I don't think they want to completely shut down advance knowledge, but they want to control what gets out, when, and from whom. Over the past few months we have seen subscribers getting WD up to 2 weeks early when there were rules in there for new units (which they must have known would be online faster than you can say "podcast"), and now Beasts Of War have got advance images of the Necron models - and you can't tell me that that's unrelated to the fact that they now have a TV show...

Spiney Norman
16-10-2011, 18:37
Lets open the question of secrecy a bit wider. After the major, OTT secrecy operation that was the Dreadfleet debacle how exactly did they manage to drop the ball with necrons to allow pics to hit the net before they've even admitted Necrons are the next codex to be redone?

Was this a deliberate leak, tantamount to them realising what an idiotic policy the secrecy thing has been, or was it just someone risking their job to get the news out?

rodmillard
16-10-2011, 19:36
Was this a deliberate leak, tantamount to them realising what an idiotic policy the secrecy thing has been, or was it just someone risking their job to get the news out?

It could be both! Just because the official line from management is that these things should be wrapped up in more secrecy than Soviet foreign policy, and being the official line that will never change because it would be tantamount to admitting they had been wrong, that doesn't mean that they have not privately reconsidered and therefore senior officers of the company are staging the leaks themselves to avoid losing face with an official U-turn.

After all, it worked for the labour party for years...

The bearded one
16-10-2011, 21:35
Yes, or it was never their intention to shut down rumours and leaks, but simply control them rigorously. Compare how long it takes before pictures are out now to a few years ago. Currently we might see them a month in advance, as we've seen with ogres and necrons, but that's pretty much the extent of the leaks. It might all just be GWs intention: Clamp down rumours, and control the leaks yourself.

rodmillard
16-10-2011, 21:42
@ The bearded one:

That would imply that GW policy was (a) sensible, and (b) successful - we don't like that kind of talk around these parts ;)

EmperorNorton
16-10-2011, 21:45
If that was their intent, why would they leak stuff to a third party instead of revealing it themselves and drawing people to their own site in the process?

The bearded one
16-10-2011, 22:36
A leak often gets more talk and attention than their own PR channels. A leak is exciting and an exclusive. PR is just PR. Eventually GW will show it on their site obviously, but leaking this material generates the excitement of it being shown prematurely.

eron12
17-10-2011, 12:31
Lots of good points.

I agree, while I like knowing what's coming, its not essential and doesn't alter my buying habbits. I don't buy models direct from GW anyway, so even if I don't hear anything before release, by the time things trickle into the secondary market I'll be aware.

Ozorik
17-10-2011, 18:04
@ The bearded one:

That would imply that GW policy was (a) sensible, and (b) successful - we don't like that kind of talk around these parts ;)

Yes, its hopelessly optimistic.

Lord_Squinty
17-10-2011, 19:06
Wasn't there some statement from a retail seminar at one of the recent GD's which essentially said it was an 'experiment' that could be repealed if there was enough backlash?
That made it sound like they were testing to see if a smaller release window had a positive [or negative] affect on sales


Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VW4tUQQqtg&feature=related

Games day seminar

10:45 mins in...

ModelCalamity
18-10-2011, 12:33
Lets open the question of secrecy a bit wider. After the major, OTT secrecy operation that was the Dreadfleet debacle how exactly did they manage to drop the ball with necrons to allow pics to hit the net before they've even admitted Necrons are the next codex to be redone?

Was this a deliberate leak, tantamount to them realising what an idiotic policy the secrecy thing has been, or was it just someone risking their job to get the news out?

What makes you think that dread fleet was a debacle?

shelfunit.
18-10-2011, 13:31
What makes you think that dread fleet was a debacle?

The fact that it doesn't seem to be selling that well, and that the lack of advertising/info meant that most people don't a) know it exists, b) hadn't any spare cash to spend on it, and c) had any idea of how it plays so could not make an informed decision on whether it was worth it at all.

ArtificerArmour
19-10-2011, 16:39
Dreadfleets still covering the shelves of my local gw.i hope the scalps who bought them up for ebay aresuffering!

rodmillard
19-10-2011, 19:13
Dreadfleets still covering the shelves of my local gw.i hope the scalps who bought them up for ebay aresuffering!

According to their farcebook page, my local GW has 8 left. Some simple arithmetic (from the "we only have 12 sets available" comment on release day) tells me that they have sold 4 sets in 2 and a half weeks. Of course, I don't know how many of their original allocation went to fulfil pre-orders but this is hardly inspiring stuff...

yabbadabba
19-10-2011, 19:18
but this is hardly inspiring stuff... Hmm, I think that is a little harsh considering the conditions under which Dreadfleet was released.
What I hope is that GW realise this release approach doesn't work.

Shamutanti
19-10-2011, 21:15
According to their farcebook page, my local GW has 8 left. Some simple arithmetic (from the "we only have 12 sets available" comment on release day) tells me that they have sold 4 sets in 2 and a half weeks. Of course, I don't know how many of their original allocation went to fulfil pre-orders but this is hardly inspiring stuff...

My local store has got 7 out of their original 16. And they sold another 10ish via pre orders. The GW 30min north of me has most of their stock, the GW 30min south of me has sold out of original allocation, their second allocation and is apparently getting their third lot in soon.

It's very hit and miss it seems.

SunTzu
19-10-2011, 23:28
I think my local GW started with 12, and sold them all, then got a further 6 brought in of which 4 remain.

That's what I gather from updates on the Facebook page anyway. I can't stand to go in there any more nowadays as the current staffer is a complete tool. (This being the same guy who said "even if you don't want Dreadfleet, buy it anyway, then sell it on eBay for £400!"... I hope anyone who fell for that has observed that it's still available to buy, so is rather unlikely to make £400 on eBay, so takes it back for a refund).

Hardly flying off the shelf, I suppose, but not awful, either. Difficult to know what to compare it against to say whether that's "good" or not.

EmperorNorton
19-10-2011, 23:48
Well, we know they made a total of 65.000 copies.
I looked around a bit and found out that the game winning the title of German game of the year (which is quite a prestigious award for a boardgame) a few years back sold 400.000 copies in its first year after the release. And I figure that's in Germany alone.

Ozorik
20-10-2011, 00:35
Dreadfleets still covering the shelves of my local gw.i hope the scalps who bought them up for ebay are suffering!

It simply means that they will need to hold onto them for longer to turn a nice profit and they certainly will make a profit.

Graeme
20-10-2011, 12:30
That's what I gather from updates on the Facebook page anyway. I can't stand to go in there any more nowadays as the current staffer is a complete tool. (This being the same guy who said "even if you don't want Dreadfleet, buy it anyway, then sell it on eBay for £400!"... I hope anyone who fell for that has observed that it's still available to buy, so is rather unlikely to make £400 on eBay, so takes it back for a refund).


The guy in Bedford (not a tool I hasten to add - very nice chap in fact) said the same thing to me on release day. I didn't go for it :-)

On that note, there are still loads available in the shop. I don't believe it's the secrecy that's caused speed of sales to fall so short of what Space Hulk achieved, but rather the simple fact that it doesn't come with models that can be used in another GW game system. That doesn't necessarily mean we can call it a failure though - I mean it's almost certainly going to sell out at some point this year.

Shamutanti
20-10-2011, 22:57
The guy in Bedford (not a tool I hasten to add - very nice chap in fact) said the same thing to me on release day. I didn't go for it :-)

On that note, there are still loads available in the shop. I don't believe it's the secrecy that's caused speed of sales to fall so short of what Space Hulk achieved, but rather the simple fact that it doesn't come with models that can be used in another GW game system. That doesn't necessarily mean we can call it a failure though - I mean it's almost certainly going to sell out at some point this year.

Is that Mr. Wayne? He's amazing and agreed, very nice guy.

ModelCalamity
21-10-2011, 10:39
The fact that it doesn't seem to be selling that well, and that the lack of advertising/info meant that most people don't a) know it exists, b) hadn't any spare cash to spend on it, and c) had any idea of how it plays so could not make an informed decision on whether it was worth it at all.

i think is hard to have any meaningful conclusions on this but i have heard that some stores managed to sell over 50 and one was a one man store somewhere.

the thing is that when you compare the sales against SH its only fair to compare it against the same sales time. Yes we knew about SH one month in advance. But they only sold out two weeks later or so. So in all fairness that's 6 weeks.

I am not saying you guys are wrong. I don't really know the exact sales figures. but I think you wouldnt have the data available to you to really say you are right either.

Spiney Norman
21-10-2011, 15:00
Well, we know they made a total of 65.000 copies.
I looked around a bit and found out that the game winning the title of German game of the year (which is quite a prestigious award for a boardgame) a few years back sold 400.000 copies in its first year after the release. And I figure that's in Germany alone.

And that was presumably without the "pressure" of the "if you don't buy it now you'll have to pay £400 on ebay" limited release antics?


The guy in Bedford (not a tool I hasten to add - very nice chap in fact) said the same thing to me on release day. I didn't go for it :-)

On that note, there are still loads available in the shop. I don't believe it's the secrecy that's caused speed of sales to fall so short of what Space Hulk achieved, but rather the simple fact that it doesn't come with models that can be used in another GW game system. That doesn't necessarily mean we can call it a failure though - I mean it's almost certainly going to sell out at some point this year.

I think its a little optimistic to suggest that Dreadfleet will be sold out by the end of the year, the last I heard there were still the odd isolated game shop with a copy of Spacehulk on the shelves and thats what over 2yrs on? I think it will be easy to get well into next year, probably even through GW.

Spacehulk had a lot of advantages over dreadfleet,

1. It was an old game we all knew and loved, we knew the rules, we'd played it before, we knew what to expect and above all we knew it was going to be awesome.
2. There was a decent length preorder period
3. They gave SH a proper launch day, none of this "don't open the box before the day" secrecy crap. I remember having a great game of SH with painted miniatures (and losing horribly to the nids in scenario one, but WTH)

RandomThoughts
21-10-2011, 15:03
OK, I am going to challenge this, in general terms (this isn't directed solely at you private_seed). Are people that desperate for new toys that they can't wait?


Ok, question on budegting. Why not just get the army book first. work out what you want, then build up after the release?

Surely, and especially with what you have described, unless you just collect models splurging out on the release date is the worst thing to do? I'd want to read the amry book, write a few army lists, have a chunder and then commit my cash.

Isn't this a better way of budgeting?


I think my question comes to, why not save up after it's released?

I understand budgets, i understand "i have this muc to spend a month and if i want somethign more then I have to save up a month" but i what i don't understand is this.

i have 40 a month to spend freely

it's october, and i'm surprised with a release that costs 80

so buy it in november?

what is it i'm missing

The way I see it, there are basically two issues people are really unhappy with:

1. Knowing what's going on inside Games Workshop (or Marvel, or the company making a role playing game) makes players feel involved. It creates an emotional bond, by making them feel like a valued part of the hobby as a whole. Cutting players of can easily leave them feeling alienated and essentially unwanted. It's not something happening on a conscious level, either, so taking a rational approach to it is far from easy.

2. I think you also underestimate the emotional impact that immersion in the hype can have. I take it from your previous posts, yadda, that it's something with very little allure to you, but I think there are many players that feel robbed now that GW has taken away the eager countdown towards the next release.

I think this is what makes the biggest difference between knowing 2 months in advance something new is coming and saving up to it and saving up to something that's already yesterday's news.

Personally, I don't care either way. I've been building up my Eldar collection for 2 years now; I only started to care about new releases (Codex, 6th edition) when I started to see the holes and inconsistencies in the game, mostly hoping they'd eventually get fixed. If those improvements don't come, or the new rules tear even more holes into the existing fabric, I'll probably just shrugg and turn elseway, I'm already halfway in my transition towards Warmachine as my main as far as actual playing is concerned (what's still holding me back there is a really good friend that won't try anything else while his first army is still unfinished, but he's starting to see the same cracks in the 40K machanics already)

As far as I'm concerned, GW delivers a bad product, with better products available out there. I've got a ton of baggage tied to 40K which is the main reason I'm still here, but I feel less tempted to spend tabletop budget on GW products all the time.
Recently I had a short burst of enthusism for starting a second 40K army, which quickly receeded when I realized I could build several fully playable Warmachine armies for the same cost as a single barely playable 40K army.

Which leads to another think I'd like to add: High upfront investment.
Starting a new GW game or even army takes a ton of cash. Which is probably why many people would rather save up some money before, so that they can afford a fully playable army the moment it is released, instead of a steady trinkle of units that never seem to suffice. Again, it's not rational, but it's how people function.


Now that big wall of text boiled down comes down to one point. I play other game systems and they let me know what they plan to release. And If I've already put a GW release on hold to buy something else, well it being on hold for a bit more won't bother me. And often that extra time waiting makes me look at GW's prices and go... wait, they want what for that!?

Which brings me to the one thing I agree with the news blackout for GW, By not giving you long enough to really look at what your paying for you are more likely to not do any comparisons.

I think this brings up several relevant points I agree with.


No it's not. You are still free to plan and save. Would you have saved more if you knew Dreadfleet was coming? If not, then not knowing didn't change anything. If you would have, then save up the money now, put it into an account and don't touch it, then you'll have it if it happens again.

Sorry for being ruide, but that's the stupidest thing I've heard all day.

I understand saving money for rainy days, that's money you intend to never touch unless you have to.

I understand saving up money for specific things you want - you have something you want, so there's a purpose here.

I understand putting money aside that you use for random impulse purchases like Dreadfleet if you got more than you need every month, so there's no cutting down on other stuff instead.

I even understand putting some money aside just to be able to afford some big impulse purchase if you ever feel like it.

What I don't understand is you telling people "you could have put money away for something just like this", even though they never knew it was coming. Let's say the had the money saved up and bought dreadfleet, and then next month a limited edition of Blood Bowl comes out and the same person says "if only I had known Blood Bowl was coming out, I'd never have spent that money on Dreadfleet". What would you tell him? "You should have saved money for something like this"?

That's the whole point, now knowing what comes out in the future makes it impossible to properly evaluate when the right moment to spend that money.

yabbadabba
21-10-2011, 15:46
1. Knowing what's going on inside Games Workshop (or Marvel, or the company making a role playing game) makes players feel involved. It creates an emotional bond, by making them feel like a valued part of the hobby as a whole. Cutting players of can easily leave them feeling alienated and essentially unwanted. It's not something happening on a conscious level, either, so taking a rational approach to it is far from easy. Its a hobby, a passion and an obsession. Its also a way of securing loyalty and sales.

2. I think you also underestimate the emotional impact that immersion in the hype can have. I take it from your previous posts, yadda, that it's something with very little allure to you, but I think there are many players that feel robbed now that GW has taken away the eager countdown towards the next release. Nope, I am well aware of it. When I worked for GW I knew hobbyists with the skills and attitudes of hard salesmen which would make a killing by manipulating those very emotions. I've lost count of the number of refunds I have to make because of that manipulation, of armies abandoned half made in cases, under beds or on top of wardrobes, of the number of friends' armies ended up on ebay because they brought a load of the stuff on release day without thinking it through. My feelings are that having been around the hobby for 30 odd years, and having worked on the inside for 13, I know what they are doing, why and the fact that I know very well the allure that I have made a conscious decision not to be played like a fiddle.

I think this is what makes the biggest difference between knowing 2 months in advance something new is coming and saving up to it and saving up to something that's already yesterday's news. Can you see by my replies why I question this "need" - and it is a need, almost narcotic like.

Its shiny toy syndrome, sorry but that is what you have described. And GW, PP, Mantic and others know it very well and can manipulate it at leisure.

eron12
21-10-2011, 17:06
What I don't understand is you telling people "you could have put money away for something just like this", even though they never knew it was coming.

My comment wasn't addressed to the casual fan. It was addressed to the kind of person that has to have every limited release and goes to complain to random strangers if they can't get each release. If it is that important to a person, they should take steps to prevent such a personal tradgity.


Let's say the had the money saved up and bought dreadfleet, and then next month a limited edition of Blood Bowl comes out and the same person says "if only I had known Blood Bowl was coming out, I'd never have spent that money on Dreadfleet". What would you tell him? "You should have saved money for something like this"?

Ignoring the fact that GW wouldn't do something like this, I have a hard time sympathizing with people who jump at every limited release. However, in this case it really wasn't their fault, and GW screwed up by dumping two limited releases back to back. But since that won't happen, it's a moot point. (note if it ever does happen, feel free to unmoot this point)


That's the whole point, now knowing what comes out in the future makes it impossible to properly evaluate when the right moment to spend that money.

Not of you don't have to have the latest shiny thing or limited release. I haven't noticed an increased difficulty in my evaluation of potential spending, let alone it becoming an impossabilty.

andyg2006
22-10-2011, 07:36
Just from my point of view:
It's the non-expandability of the system that gets me.
I'd seen the models before I went into a store and me and the manager got enthusiastic about it, but I asked about extra maps, possibilities of terrain (e.g. a bit like Empire when there's islands, towers, etc) and more ships so you can do a dwarf fleet (or whoever) and he said no, it's a stand-alone game (but you can't use the models for anything else either), it's then incredibly hard to justify and I think this is what hurts the game.

With Space Hulk, at least you got a Terminator army + a couple of characters and specific models (guy on a throne, C.A.T., etc) for cheaper and then you have loads of stealers and board sections for free...or the other way 'round if you like Nids...

Then you can still play with the Space Hulk rules and board sections using any other existing models, so you still get use out of the other things in the set.

RandomThoughts
27-10-2011, 14:26
My comment wasn't addressed to the casual fan. It was addressed to the kind of person that has to have every limited release and goes to complain to random strangers if they can't get each release. If it is that important to a person, they should take steps to prevent such a personal tradgity.

Ignoring the fact that GW wouldn't do something like this, I have a hard time sympathizing with people who jump at every limited release. However, in this case it really wasn't their fault, and GW screwed up by dumping two limited releases back to back. But since that won't happen, it's a moot point. (note if it ever does happen, feel free to unmoot this point)

Not of you don't have to have the latest shiny thing or limited release. I haven't noticed an increased difficulty in my evaluation of potential spending, let alone it becoming an impossabilty.

While I realize we might just be talking about very different cases, I think my point is this:
It's not a nice policy towards people who have to save money in advance to afford some goods, especially if these are not available for long.

The second point I was trying to make is this: GW is not the only company that does that. A Band might announce a tour that is sold out in short order, or a sales offer for something else that's rare and precious for the saving person turns out on short notice. The less "unplannable" cases like these are out there, the less "wrong" decissions people will make and later regret.

Again, while most of these are unavoidable, adding to this list of unforseeable wants is just not very nice towards the customers in my opinion.



Its a hobby, a passion and an obsession. Its also a way of securing loyalty and sales.
Nope, I am well aware of it. When I worked for GW I knew hobbyists with the skills and attitudes of hard salesmen which would make a killing by manipulating those very emotions. I've lost count of the number of refunds I have to make because of that manipulation, of armies abandoned half made in cases, under beds or on top of wardrobes, of the number of friends' armies ended up on ebay because they brought a load of the stuff on release day without thinking it through. My feelings are that having been around the hobby for 30 odd years, and having worked on the inside for 13, I know what they are doing, why and the fact that I know very well the allure that I have made a conscious decision not to be played like a fiddle.
Can you see by my replies why I question this "need" - and it is a need, almost narcotic like.

Its shiny toy syndrome, sorry but that is what you have described. And GW, PP, Mantic and others know it very well and can manipulate it at leisure.

Despite all the ulterior motives for the company, that doesn't mean it won't mean something for the fans as well. Just look at football, which also sells mostly on the fake emotion of belonging and being part of something bigger.

Some of us look for that in our nerdier hobbies, and being denied by GW in that regard will be a disapointment for some of us. Which, in my opinion, explains a lot of the negativity expressed here.

Personally, I'd just like to know where the rules are going, and whether the game will become more enjoyable to me again after 6th edition or not.