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Oogie boogie boss
03-10-2011, 10:28
Okay, i'm only just starting with OnG, and this is a bit of a hypocritical statement as i'm doing an all Savage Orc list (something i've wanted to do for years and now can thanks to the new plastics), but i've looked at a lot of OnG lists on this site, and hardly anyone takes normal Orcs.
I think that's a damn shame.
It seems everyone has Black Orcs, Savage Orcs and Night Goblins, but no ordinary Boys.
I think having those units in a regular OnG army is fine, but when the normal Orcs are outnumbered by Black Orcs, or arn't even present, it seems to detract from the fluff, and they seem vastly underused.
I've heard some people say that they're overpriced, or just not worth it compared to SO, but i think a Orc army should have some actual ORCS in it.
Personally, i think they are a good, cheap troop type. How many other armies offer T4 troops, who can be ST4 in the first combat round, for 6pts?
BRING BACK DA BOYS!
And also Common Gobbos. :p

Jack of Blades
03-10-2011, 10:31
The O&G generals simply aren't green enough to include them :p

theunwantedbeing
03-10-2011, 10:54
Savage orcs generate more attacks for not too many more points, as well as not suffering from psychology issues and they get that handy 6+ ward save. Why wouldn't you want to pay a few more points a model to get that?

Common goblins don't get fanatics or netter upgrades, also they have a point less of initiative and don't come with spears as standard.
Why would you want common goblins?

It's just that some choices are better value than others, some significantly more so in the case of common and night goblins.

Jedi152
03-10-2011, 10:56
Because their price almost doubled when the last army book was released.

Oogie boogie boss
03-10-2011, 10:59
Granted, for 2pts more, Savage Orcs are a bargain, but frenzy can be a handicap as well as an advantage, and common gobbos may not be as quick, but they'e got higher Ld, which is a big thing with the new steadfast rules. Plus, it goes against the idea of an Orc army not to have any normal Orcss in it. The exotic troops are supposed to be just that-exotic, not the norm.

Oogie boogie boss
03-10-2011, 11:00
Because their price almost doubled when the last army book was released.

Yeah, that's lame. But everything's expensive with GW these days. :cries:

Urgat
03-10-2011, 11:36
Okay, i'm only just starting with OnG, and this is a bit of a hypocritical statement as i'm doing an all Savage Orc list (something i've wanted to do for years and now can thanks to the new plastics), but i've looked at a lot of OnG lists on this site, and hardly anyone takes normal Orcs.
I think that's a damn shame.

Don't. It's warseer/the net, it doesn't reflect how it usually goes in real life.

Oogie boogie boss
03-10-2011, 12:02
True enough, though three out of the four OnG players i know don't have Orc Boys in their army.

Oogie boogie boss
03-10-2011, 12:03
That being said, the one who does has 80. Coincidentally, he's also one of the most fun of my friends to play.

xxRavenxx
03-10-2011, 13:07
I think its pretty much what has been said.

Savage orcs beat orcs, so they get taken.

Also, they have newer, nicer models, and are a bit more interesting for an army. (Jungle orcs are cool, lets face it.)

Gandalf the Gay
03-10-2011, 13:24
I dont like the new Savage Orcs so much, and I am currently looking for smoe 6th ed Arrer boyz. If I find a bunch of those, Im gonna start an Orc Army. I have the first 1000pts planned out, and the only thing that is not Orc is the three Goblins crewing my spear chukka. Eventually, I'll get some Black orcs, though, and more warmachines. Maybe night goblins.

Leogun_91
03-10-2011, 13:41
Well I take them and find them to be quite good, Savage orcs have some advantages but the boyz are cheaper and it becomes harder to use a horde army when you pay 9pts per model for a close combat core choice. (On a 25 unit, which is standard for me as they'll have goblin meatshields to absorb some damage first, that's a 50pts difference, three of these units and the extra points give me another horde of nightgoblins or a unit of 20 arrer boyz).

Malorian
03-10-2011, 16:19
An orc with 2 chopps is 7 points, a naked savage orc is 8 points (just 1 more).

For that 1 point you get your save against everything and you are ItP. ItP means the unit can stay away from the LD/BSB bubble leaving room for the goblins and trolls that need it.

More importantly 8th is all about doing the most damage in combat so the savages who have the ability to get 3 attacks per model are ace.

And don't say frenzy is a disadvantage. A LD test to ignore the negative effects and the first round of combat typically determines everything. The rare time you lose combat you are usually ran down.

Oogie boogie boss
03-10-2011, 16:36
I agree that Savage Orcs are a good deal (again, doing an army of them) and i do think that generally Frenzy is awesome, but it does give your opponent the opportunity to pull your battleline this way and that, leaving you exposed.
I think it just goes against the grain of the background to exclude normal Orc boys or to make them a minority unit, unless you're doing a themed army.

Okuto
03-10-2011, 16:46
Have a 30 orc boy unit fight a 30 man unit of saw empire swordsmen and then have a 30 savage orc unit fight the same said empire swordsmen and you'll see the difference

I still use orc boyz simply cause I'm stubborn like that and I like to keep to theme and I've payed the cost(l'm been losing like crazy lol)

So yeah orc boyz are unproductive but I use them cause it's what I got....there times where I do pull out but for the most part my orcs are the jobbers in my area....

Ghremdal
03-10-2011, 17:28
Since the start of 8th edition I have been using a unit of 40 boyz with shields. After our new army book came out I started to have a feeling that they are of less and less use. So a few months ago I took them out and started experimenting with other things. It didn't really work out.

I am not saying they are great, and they certainly don't look good on paper, but they fit into my playstyle, and are a solid workhouse unit, that is my generals bunker as well. I will probably still experiment with them, but I like the core of my army to be Orc boyz.

Jind_Singh
03-10-2011, 17:30
I don't use Orc Boyz anymore - it's true - but that's because I'm playing with all Gobbos, all da Time!!

I still use my Orc boyz from time to time - they are a little bit cheaper than the Savages who come in at a hefty 11pts a model (Big un with additional choppa) so it's easy to make a big nice unit of 50 Orc Boyz to bunker my Warboss/BSB if I am using mixed Orcs & Goblins.

5+/6++ in close combat is ok, but the Savage Orc Big Uns get a 5+ ward all the time thanks to the Savage Orc Shaman with his Lucky Head!

Another reason you may see is that for the exact same $$$ price you get 10 new looking Savages, their box is PACKED FULL of extra gubbinz - and you can make anything out of them.
OR
A box of 10 Orc Boyz were you can't even give all 10 the same weapon choice, and they don't have parts for arrer boyz (Which is ok, I have spare bow hands from the Savage set now).

That could also be a deciding factor.

Gameplay wise the Orc Boyz are still central to my plan - I can not afford to willingly throw away the unit with my Warboss and the BSB to it's doom - so I tend to play a sucidial unit of Savage Orc Big Uns, 20 strong, full command, additional choppas, with a shaman with lucky head - and aim them at something I don't like and watch them go!

In the meantime the Warboss/BSB bunker in a handy unit of Orc Boyz, 40-50 strong - the boyz are there to provide strength in numbers, the unit is 6 wide, and has decent close combat offensive. And the fact that I can flee with them is HUGE as sometimes you have to know when you're going to need to run away to come back to fight another day!

But you're right - Orc Boyz are not going to be around as much now as before - but it's not a bad thing either as now:

1) Running pure Goblin armies is much easier/fun
2) Savage Orcs - we all wanted these guys for years and years as plastic and now they are!
3) The Orc Boyz boxed set is pants - should be discounted price compared to Savage Orc Box UNTIL they remake the box to include same kind of trinkets as the Savages - then I'll gladly pay the same price, but for now it's a rip off

Toshiro
03-10-2011, 18:01
I actually only own 20 orc boyz, on the other hand I own no savage ones, but 40 black orcs *cough* I play mostly goblins and night goblins, got 50 and 150 of those respectively :p

Leogun_91
03-10-2011, 18:03
Have a 30 orc boy unit fight a 30 man unit of saw empire swordsmen and then have a 30 savage orc unit fight the same said empire swordsmen and you'll see the difference
Mathammering away at that shows what you get for an extra 60pts investment and for that I can get a big boss in my unit (or make them big'uns)

Mathhammering then:
For simplicities sake neither side gets the charge, they are both magically teleported into battle, the savage orcs strike against orcs, all orc units strike against savage orcs, all units are 30 man strong not including characters and they stand 5 man wide:

Round 1:
Savage orcs with additional choppas make 18 attacks, 9 hits, 4,5 wounds. The Savage orc boss makes 4 attacks, 2,66 hits, 1,77 wounds.
Total: 6,27 wounds -6 wounds caused on orcs.

Orc Big uns with additional choppas make 13 attacks, 8,66 hits, 5,77 wounds, 4,81 after wardsaves.
The orc boss makes 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1,33 wounds, 1,11 after saves
Total: 5,91 wounds -6 wounds caused on savage orcs

Orcs with additional choppas make 13 attack, 6,5 hits, 3,25 wounds, 2,7 after wardsaves.
The orc boss makes 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1,33 wounds, 1,11 after saves
The orc big boss with additional choppa makes 4 attacks, 2,66 hits, 1,77 wounds, 1,47 after saves.
Total: 5,28 -5 wounds

Later rounds (we assume the savage orcs are still frenzied):

Savage orcs with additional choppas make 18 attacks, 9 hits, 3 wounds, 2,5 after saves.
The Savage orc boss makes 4 attacks, 2,66 hits, 1,33 wounds.
Total: 3,83 wounds -3 or 4 wounds caused on orcs.

Orc Big uns with additional choppas make 13 attacks, 8,66 hits, 4,33 wounds, 3,60 after wardsaves.
The orc boss makes 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wounds, 0,83 after saves
Total: 4,43 wounds -4 or possibly 5 wounds caused on savage orcs

Orcs with additional choppas make 13 attack, 6,5 hits, 2,16 wounds, 1,8 after wardsaves.
The orc boss makes 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wounds, 0,83 after saves
The orc big boss with additional choppa makes 4 attacks, 2,66 hits, 1,33 wounds, 1,10 after saves.
Total: 3,73 -3 or 4 wounds

If the orcs use shields (the savage orcs won't because they gain almost nothing from it) we get this instead:

Round 1:
Savage orcs with additional choppas make 18 attacks, 9 hits, 4,5 wounds, 3,75 after armour, 3,12 after parry.
The Savage orc boss makes 4 attacks, 2,66 hits, 1,77 wounds, 1,47 after parry
Total: 4,59 wounds -4 or 5 wounds caused on orcs.

Orc Big uns with shields make 9 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 3,33 after wardsaves.
The orc boss makes 2 attacks, 1,33 hits, 0,88 wounds, 0,73 after saves
Total: 4,06 wounds -4 wounds caused on savage orcs

Orcs with shields make 9 attack, 4,5 hits, 2,25 wounds, 1,87 after wardsaves.
The orc boss makes 2 attacks, 1,33 hits, 0,88 wounds, 0,73 after saves.
The orc big boss with additional choppa makes 4 attacks, 2,66 hits, 1,77 wounds, 1,47 after saves.
Total: 4,07 -4 wounds

Later rounds (we assume the savage orcs are still frenzied):

Savage orcs with additional choppas make 18 attacks, 9 hits, 3 wounds, 2 after armour saves, 1,66 after wardsaves
The Savage orc boss makes 4 attacks, 2,66 hits, 1,33 wounds, 1,1 after armoursaves, 0,92 after parry.
Total: 2,58 wounds -2 or 3 wounds caused on orcs.

Orc Big uns with shields make 9 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds, 2,5 after wardsaves.
The orc boss makes 2 attacks, 1,33 hits, 0,66 wounds, 0,55 after saves
Total: 3,5 wounds -3 or 4 wounds caused on savage orcs

Orcs with ashields make 9 attack, 4,5 hits, 1,5 wounds, 1,25 after wardsaves.
The orc boss makes 2 attacks, 1,33 hits, 0,66 wounds, 0,55 after saves
The orc big boss with additional choppa makes 4 attacks, 2,66 hits, 1,33 wounds, 1,10 after saves.
Total: 2,9 wounds -3 wounds

abdulaapocolyps
03-10-2011, 18:06
I think your answer is above.people DO take them and,if they fit your play style, they are good.
The reason no one online has list with them in is everyone listens to one opinion, apparently from someone who just marches forward and wants all his troupes to win every combat every time...and some kids wonder why their uber list just got tabled!
Still, I'd see this as an opportunity, an all ork boy army could be fun and,dare I say it, different?

T9nv3
03-10-2011, 18:06
I've only played a few games with O&G but I find those extra attacks are key. Regular boys just aren't killey enough for me. Sure, thy are pretty tough, but running them 6 wide, those 25 attacks are going to get much better results than 13.... besides....If it comes down to a choice between a 6+ ward and a parry save, I'll take the ward.

In terms of big numbers though....if you want to squeeze lots and lots of orcs into your list, the regular boys are probably the way to go

AlphariusOmegon20
03-10-2011, 18:10
I take regular Boyz, but I upgrade them to "Big Un's", thanks to Gorbad.

For me, it's a cosmetic choice foremost, I've never liked the idea of naked orcs. I don't begrudge anyone that does run Savage Orcs though, it just doesn't work for my army.

Feefait
03-10-2011, 18:19
I think one of the reasons is that for so long people wanted to make a full savage orc army but it just wasn't viable tactically or with the models. With the new book and range both of those issues are addressed.

In addition this edition is all about the highest amounts of dice you can roll in a lot of way. So more dice = more hits = more wounds, etc... A horde of savage orcs is a lot of points but it just dishes out dice rolls. And then factor in frenzy (not nearly the detractor it was in 7th) saving you from psych tests and the ward save and all of a sudden they are a really nasty option over boyz.

I do want toc all shenanigans... if you think they are so good, then why don't YOU take them? :P lol

TheDarkDuke
03-10-2011, 18:25
Theres a few factors i believe. The first being that they are generally just less effective then other cores such as savage orcs. Then the second which is people just dont want/like regular orcs and want to focus on goblins/savage orcs etc.

My army is based around night goblins with a unit of savage orcs and 2 units of black orcs just because i like there models far more then basic boys and most of my army is core consisting of night goblins so i need a little more hitting power in my army.

castlesmadeofsand
03-10-2011, 18:53
Mathammering away at that shows what you get for an extra 60pts investment and for that I can get a big boss in my unit (or make them big'uns) ........... etc


that's all very nice, but the comparison was on the difference in performance between orcs and savage orcs against EMPIRE Swordsmen, not each other. :angel:

Urgat
03-10-2011, 19:11
that's all very nice, but the comparison was on the difference in performance between orcs and savage orcs against EMPIRE Swordsmen, not each other. :angel:

Trolling? It's pretty obvious the one that fares better against the other is also going to fare better against something else :angel:

Leogun_91
03-10-2011, 23:16
that's all very nice, but the comparison was on the difference in performance between orcs and savage orcs against EMPIRE Swordsmen, not each other. :angel:Well now I did them against each other, it still gives a good representation of their capabilities compared to each other and I didn't need to mathhammer a 4th unit, but mathhammer them against swordsmen if you feel like it, just don't forget to use those 60 extra pts to boost the orc boyz (as I did with big uns/ a big boss)

Spiney Norman
03-10-2011, 23:26
Okay, i'm only just starting with OnG, and this is a bit of a hypocritical statement as i'm doing an all Savage Orc list (something i've wanted to do for years and now can thanks to the new plastics), but i've looked at a lot of OnG lists on this site, and hardly anyone takes normal Orcs.
I think that's a damn shame.
It seems everyone has Black Orcs, Savage Orcs and Night Goblins, but no ordinary Boys.
I think having those units in a regular OnG army is fine, but when the normal Orcs are outnumbered by Black Orcs, or arn't even present, it seems to detract from the fluff, and they seem vastly underused.
I've heard some people say that they're overpriced, or just not worth it compared to SO, but i think a Orc army should have some actual ORCS in it.
Personally, i think they are a good, cheap troop type. How many other armies offer T4 troops, who can be ST4 in the first combat round, for 6pts?
BRING BACK DA BOYS!
And also Common Gobbos. :p

Common orc boyz (and common gobbos come to think of it) have some of the worst models in the entire warhammer range. I can't think of any reason that would make me buy common orc boyz when they are the same price as the fantastic new savages because my armies are all about how they look rather than how good they are.

Are common orcs overpointed? I don't think so, certainly not more than savages are, I'd even say that common boyz are a better choice than savage boyz (savages only really get the edge when upgraded to bigguns and combined with a shaman with the shrunken head).

Common gobbos got the double stigma of crap models AND crap rules (at least by comparison to Night gobbos) so no surpises that they're not popular.

PANZERBUNNY
04-10-2011, 01:36
Okay, i'm only just starting with OnG, and this is a bit of a hypocritical statement as i'm doing an all Savage Orc list (something i've wanted to do for years and now can thanks to the new plastics), but i've looked at a lot of OnG lists on this site, and hardly anyone takes normal Orcs.
I think that's a damn shame.
It seems everyone has Black Orcs, Savage Orcs and Night Goblins, but no ordinary Boys.
I think having those units in a regular OnG army is fine, but when the normal Orcs are outnumbered by Black Orcs, or arn't even present, it seems to detract from the fluff, and they seem vastly underused.
I've heard some people say that they're overpriced, or just not worth it compared to SO, but i think a Orc army should have some actual ORCS in it.
Personally, i think they are a good, cheap troop type. How many other armies offer T4 troops, who can be ST4 in the first combat round, for 6pts?
BRING BACK DA BOYS!
And also Common Gobbos. :p

Some of the worst looking models in the game.

In regards to common goblins I've been tinkering with "Tribe rules" where you can customize a common goblin tribe to give them certain bonuses or abilities. This would bring them level with Night Goblins.

Okuto
04-10-2011, 02:16
regular orcs are fine....they just need a rehash(like their 40k counterparts) in the form of new weapons, extra options, fancy gubbins.

Now common gobbos need a whole new makeover....the are quite horrid to look at

Gekiganger
04-10-2011, 03:14
Common orc boyz (and common gobbos come to think of it) have some of the worst models in the entire warhammer range.

Really? I've always found the boys have aged pretty well, they were a good solid kit when they were made and still are. Can't say I'm a fan of the rock sculpted savages, good quality, but not my style.

Common goblins though, christ. I love the buggers, but the kits possibly the oldest plastic one still in circulation (correct me if I'm wrong).

Okuto
04-10-2011, 03:18
I think it's more of how the savages are painted....they are way too clean and crisp to be orcs imo

herbtarkel
04-10-2011, 05:05
In 7th I had a big Orc, all-Orc army. No savages, no goblins or anything like that. It was ok.

I have always had my NG army, and I just simply have more fun with it. I enjoy the looks on Daemon and other tough-guy faces when I crump 'em good. And when I don't well it don't matter, does it?

Oh, I would imagine the get-half-as-many for more money hidden in plain sight price increase didn't help at all. That was ridiculous. I ebayed all my Orcs then. And made good money, too.

Oogie boogie boss
04-10-2011, 10:06
Yep, the price increase is pretty ridiculous, and fairly unjustified. I really can't see any reasonable excuse for paying more money for half as many models. Are they made of a new, more expensive material? No. Are they being packaged in a more complex manner? No. Is GW struggling for profit? No.
Okay, granted, due to national inflation rates, prices will go up, but that's no excuse for reducing the quantity of models in the boxes.

wizbix
04-10-2011, 10:30
Just want to dispell a couple of myths that get touted on here quite bit: There are people out there that take Orc boys as their main troop type. There are also people out there that take Common Goblins as their main troop type. It seems no matter how much I post this on warseer no one reads it or believes me (though their are a couple of people like me that have already replied). Just toodle on over to www.da-warpath.com and see some of those armies blogs. I've got one myself if you need the proof. Okay okay these armies are far from the commonest orc and goblin armies being used but it doesnt mean they are not being used.

DeathlessDraich
04-10-2011, 10:51
Just want to dispell a couple of myths that get touted on here quite bit: There are people out there that take Orc boys as their main troop type. There are also people out there that take Common Goblins as their main troop type.

Yes, I'm one of them. I've had great success with 2 blocks of Orc Boyz and no Savage Orcs. Just a matter of playing differently - neither really better or worse under tournament conditions
Common Goblin - used them as well but not as a main block.

AmaroK
04-10-2011, 11:01
An orc with 2 chopps is 7 points, a naked savage orc is 8 points (just 1 more).

For that 1 point you get your save against everything and you are ItP. ItP means the unit can stay away from the LD/BSB bubble leaving room for the goblins and trolls that need it.

More importantly 8th is all about doing the most damage in combat so the savages who have the ability to get 3 attacks per model are ace.

And don't say frenzy is a disadvantage. A LD test to ignore the negative effects and the first round of combat typically determines everything. The rare time you lose combat you are usually ran down.

Frenzy is a disadvantage sometimes. Sure, it grants an extra attack and inmune to panic, but as you said, if you move the savages out of the leadership bubble, the LD test to restrain charging is going to be failed more often, and if you stay in range, why you need the ItP stuff anyways.

But the main drawback of frenzy is that you are forced to pursue/overrun. A throwaway unit placed correctly can make your thousand of attacks go to a place of the board where they will hardly find anybody, or be exposed to a flank attack.

As you said in one of your latest videos, highest dps isnīt always the way to go ;)

Spiney Norman
04-10-2011, 12:37
regular orcs are fine....they just need a rehash(like their 40k counterparts) in the form of new weapons, extra options, fancy gubbins.

Now common gobbos need a whole new makeover....the are quite horrid to look at

The reason my O&G army was entirely a "G" army throughout the whole of 7th Edition was that I couldn't stand the thought of owning or painting the horrific orc boy models. With 8th; no new models, doubled in price = no thanks.

I liked the savage orc metals, but the plastic were much, much better, and even better still if you don't use the stupid sharp edge highlighting technique that heavy metal thought was appropriate for them.

Tokamak
04-10-2011, 12:45
My army 2250 army has 120 orc boys. The point increase hit me pretty hard, I don't think it was called for either. It seems more like they wanted them to be more expensive to justify a price increase of the models.

Geep
04-10-2011, 13:06
I don't get the complaining about orc points. When armed with 2 choppas the price is the same and spears now get the 'choppa' rule. Most importantly (IMO) the big 'un upgrade costs half of what it used to.

I really like regular boys, and field a lot of them. I don't field common goblins on foot though- sneaky stabbas are a good start, but they still can't compete with night goblins and they reaaly need nicer models.

Shimmergloom
04-10-2011, 13:24
Well now I did them against each other, it still gives a good representation of their capabilities compared to each other and I didn't need to mathhammer a 4th unit, but mathhammer them against swordsmen if you feel like it, just don't forget to use those 60 extra pts to boost the orc boyz (as I did with big uns/ a big boss)

Which is the point. Your orcs needed a hero to boost them. Savages don't.

You didn't face off actual orcs vs savages, but orcs w/character to boost them vs savages.

By your own post you have proven why orcs aren't better than savages.

cool-kid-on-the-block
04-10-2011, 13:32
i think you need to take lots or none if you are playing competatively. if you take lots of them the saved points over the alternative start to pile up and your army will be either bigger(cooler) or the same size with better pimped out characters.

mrtn
04-10-2011, 13:36
Which is the point. Your orcs needed a hero to boost them. Savages don't.

You didn't face off actual orcs vs savages, but orcs w/character to boost them vs savages.

By your own post you have proven why orcs aren't better than savages.

While you on the other hand just proved that 1200 savage orcs are better than 4 regular boyz. :) If you don't compare the same point value of units the comparison is worthless, though I'd prefer to just take more common orcs and let them fight to the last man.

The bearded one
04-10-2011, 14:20
Noone takes Orc Boyz anymore because pedophilia is frowned upon even by greenskins..


o wait, that's not what you meant?
Did I go out of line here? :p



Savage orcs are better for a miniscule pointsdifference and the drawback of frenzy isn't all that big of a deal, hence savages tend to win out over orcs with additional choppa's.

Mercules
04-10-2011, 14:27
And don't say frenzy is a disadvantage. A LD test to ignore the negative effects and the first round of combat typically determines everything. The rare time you lose combat you are usually ran down.

I place a Mv8 Sabertusk which costs 21 points at a "Weird Angle" leading away from my forces 1" in front of your Savage Orcs. I do so in such a way that it will expose your flank to my Ogres should you overrun. Tell me how Frenzy is not a disadvantage again?

MOST of the time it is not a disadvantage, but it does remove some control you have over your troops. Now you have the choice of charging, and overrunning where I want you to; standing there; or trying to shuffle your unit around my blocking 21 points. :) Elves do it all the time, now I can to.

nanktank
04-10-2011, 14:36
Ive tried an all common goblin army before, I think my mistake was not having enough hard hitting units. Sure I had 70 gobbos with spears but all they could ever be was a tar pit. I think next time I will take an arachnarok and some chariots to attack the flanks while the common gobbo's hold whatever I am fighting.

Dark Aly
04-10-2011, 14:41
I use them but I do have 100 models of varying ages.

Shimmergloom
04-10-2011, 14:59
While you on the other hand just proved that 1200 savage orcs are better than 4 regular boyz. :) If you don't compare the same point value of units the comparison is worthless, though I'd prefer to just take more common orcs and let them fight to the last man.

Keep denying the obvious. The post is orcs vs savages orcs. And you needed a character to make orcs have any shot vs savage orcs.

And when you try to use the points value defense, that 60pts you are using for your orc big boss is 60pts less that you have for magic users and doesn't help at all with the bigger liabilities that orcs have, which is psychology and comparison vs night goblins.

An orc should die in a 1:2 ratio vs night goblins. But they don't. They die almost as easily as night goblins for double the cost.

Geep
04-10-2011, 16:05
@Shimmergloom

I really don't understand the point you're trying to make. Savage orcs are better than savage orcs 1 on 1- I don't think anyone is denying this, hence savage orcs cost more points. This doesn't make regular orcs bad- they're simply cheaper, giving you more options (such as a big 'un upgrade, placing them at the same points level as a savage orc and at the same points cost- exactly as appropriate).

By upgrading my normal boys to big 'uns I'm not losing any more points towards magic users or anything else than you are by taking savage orcs over normal orcs.

I'm not trying to pick an argument or anything here- I really don't get your point. You can't ignore points values in a comparison- it's as effectively part of the profile as strength or toughness.

I also don't get the 'Orcs vs Goblin' death rate comment. Ease of being killed is not the sole determining factor of points- hitting ability is also important, and orcs (any kind) are superior.

Tokamak
04-10-2011, 16:10
The main strength of an orc ought to be the toughness combined with the large masses and being expendable. For such a bulk unit the costs need to be low.

Gustav Kohn
04-10-2011, 16:57
My normal O&G army contains three blocks of regular orcs (25 shields, 25 two choppas, and 25 arrer) along with 30 Black orcs. I believe that regular orcs should be most common in any orc army (not necessarily a goblin army. I then add either some goblins that got rounded up as slaves or some savage orcs that sit around outside the orc camp.

I think that the main benefit of savage orcs is when combined with the skull in order to bump the save. Then they are nice.

DeathlessDraich
04-10-2011, 17:11
Hmm. Lots of claims and counter claims.

Here are some facts, comparing 2HW Sav Orcs and Orc Boyz with shields, using probabilities:

A) Against WS3 S3T3 5+AS, the Savs should win the first round. Compared to Da Boyz, they have a 2:1 advantage when hitting against a 3:2 disadvantage while being hit i.e. Savs are much better
In general if the Savs can win combat in the first round, they are better than Boyz.

B) Against units who should win the first round against them, mainly S4T4 units e.g. WOC warriors, Chosen, GG, Dryads (in woods), some Dwarf infantry, the rate of unit depletion is higher for the Savs i.e. Da Boyz are better.

I think, I calculated it correctly - but someone could double check :)

It's never a question of which unit is better or worse, it's simply what role have they been assigned for the army to function cohesively.

Jind_Singh
04-10-2011, 18:05
Savages hit a like a ton of bricks - but to do so they need to be Big Uns and ideally need a lucky head to get their 5+ ward save - that unit, hands down, is a Juggernaut!

My unit of 20 throws out 19 strength 5 attacks, 2 strength 4 attacks (shaman) at WS 4 (and 3 for Shaman)./ It's a tough unit, if they have re-rolls to hit (Ere we go spell) then suddenly the hurt becomes more hurty!

Normal Savages though....WS3 is a huge pain, hitting on 4's (no matter how many attacks I got), and having strength 4 in 1st round of combat means the unit has to do really well to win the combat. In return they go down pretty easy, a 6+ ward save is all and well but not the best.

This is why the argument "Savage Orcs are better than Orc Boyz" fails as neither is better, they both have their own role to play in my army list:

1) Savage Orcs = Hammer Unit - send forwards and watch them destroy units (with Big Uns and Lucky Head Shaman in the unit).

2) Orc Boyz - hold the line - tar pit the enemy with half decent 5+/6++ saves and T4, add in some characters like a Warboss/Big Boss to rack up combat res, and then support them with chariot charges/monster charges/flank charges from supporting units.

I can NOT rely on a unit of Savage Orcs to hold the line, they have to break through, and the moment I lose a round of combat....

I am the same as an Orc Boy but with a worse save AND I now cost MORE points!!!

So argue all you want - but unless the answer is that BOTH units are equally viable I'm not going to be convinced otherwise.

Now Common Goblins - models aside (I kind of like them though, modeled my entire unit in a Roman Turtle shield formation, looks kind of neat), are not the same unit that Night Goblins are - but I still use them as they are not bad either. The one thing I like about Common Goblins over Night Goblins IN A PURE GOBLIN ARMY is that I can actually count on my Common Goblins holding the line the FIRST TIME they enter combat - why?

Unit Champion, 3 Nasty Skulkers, Warboss (with 4+ wardsave) - the enemy can only kill all 3 Skulkers and the Unit Champion, they may wound the Warboss once, and then that leaves just the enemy models in base to base combat with my 2 rank and file models that can actually damage the unit. In this case my 1st round of combat means I do lose (more often than not) but the number of wounds is such that I still have a fairly large mob left alive and I'll more often than not be steadfast as I don't take a ton of casualties.

Then my next turn I'll counter with my chariots/big stuff.....win combat res, out rank the enemy, now it's time to watch them run down the enemy units one by one!!

In this manner I've beaten a massive unit of Chaos Warriors as I held them off for one turn with my Goblin Unit and then I rampaged in with a Wolf Chariot and a big Spider to the Flank - with Trolls on the other flank. In round two my Common Gobbos took more wounds than round one as pretty much all 4 champions were dead, it was just rank and file with the Warboss, but I scored enough combat res to beat the WOC, and though I took heavy casualties on the Goblins, the fact that the 1st round saw just a handful dead allowed me to keep more ranks than the Warriors - so I made him take a leadership test of 3 and watched with glee as he broke and got ran down!

The only other use I have for them is the BSB with the Spider banner, then I boost them with the Spider God's blessing (Our little Waaagh spell) - best result was killing a fresh Necrospinx in ONE ROUND OF SHOOTING! (Should have seen the TK players face, priceless). That's kind of neat - but requires the investment of a 149 point BSB who is fragile as anything in close combat!

But back to Orc Boyz vs Savage Orcs - as mentioned both are equally viable to me, and both are pretty well costed for what they do - sure it would be nice to see a one point reduction, but then it would be nice to see other things too in the book - but who cares, they work, they work well - what's the big deal?

wizbix
04-10-2011, 19:05
Its hands down Orc Boys, why? Because those savage Orcs all have their hands stuck up in the air!

;)

mrtn
04-10-2011, 19:50
Keep denying the obvious. The post is orcs vs savages orcs. And you needed a character to make orcs have any shot vs savage orcs.

I? I've never needed an orc character and I've never used one either. I didn't even mention one. :p
I'm not denying something obvious since I'm not denying anything. The only point I'm making is that you shouldn't compare 20 savages to 20 common orcs since the latter are cheaper. The rest is you confusing me with someone else and flaming me for it. I'd rather you didn't, frankly. :eyebrows:

Leogun_91
04-10-2011, 20:12
Which is the point. Your orcs needed a hero to boost them. Savages don't.

You didn't face off actual orcs vs savages, but orcs w/character to boost them vs savages.

By your own post you have proven why orcs aren't better than savages.Well orcs alone shouldn't defeat savage orcs, orcs w/character costs the same as savage orcs without character so the orcs should need said character.

Keep denying the obvious. The post is orcs vs savages orcs. And you needed a character to make orcs have any shot vs savage orcs.

And when you try to use the points value defense, that 60pts you are using for your orc big boss is 60pts less that you have for magic users and doesn't help at all with the bigger liabilities that orcs have, which is psychology and comparison vs night goblins.I don't know how you come to the conclusion that +1Ld doesn't help against psychology.

But at least compare 30 savage orcs to 38 Orc Boyz (closer in pts), if I haven't used the 60pts I save on taking common orcs over Savage orcs then I have clearly done something wrong.....and even with 60pts gone from heroes I can afford quite a few shamans if need be.....or we could just pit 30 Orc boyz and a night goblin shaman vs 30 Savage orcs.

Gork or Possibly Mork
04-10-2011, 20:59
Snip

Great summary i also see them as both useful. I also a fan of the common gobbo/skulker/gobbo character CR deny unit.

Night gobbos are still p4p the better anvil but you'd be surpized how much that extra point of armour can help. The better LD is nice too.

Another thing is savage big'uns draw an aweful lot of attention. I've been playing around with the idea of running two smaller regular savage units as combo or counter chargers after the anvils get stuck in.

Nighthawke
04-10-2011, 21:20
yes, i use 80 of them because that 80 points i save onn them over savage orcs means i can upgrade the 40 savages into big'uns :D, plus i refuse to buy 80 savage orcs when ive over 100 regualr orcs

Djekar
04-10-2011, 21:56
I think that my biggest problem with Orc Boyz, hence why they are largely absent from my lists, is the role that they fill. Are they better than Savages Big Un's, Squigs, Trolls or Black Orcs at being a big spinny meat grinder of death? No. Are they better at tarpitting than Night Goblins with nets or even regular "swordsmen" gobbos? No. Are they better at being outside of my general's leadership than stuff that is ItP (which coincidentally is usually pretty killy in the list)? No. So they are a mediocre unit that doesn't fulfill any goal well and don't have the flexibility to act as a failsafe for multiple units in case something bad does happen. Big whoop. Maybe next edition, ladz.

Chadjabdoul
04-10-2011, 23:50
In my opinion Savage Orcs were always better fighters (well since 4th edition anyway...)
Around 7th edition everyone started using orc boyz (savages were still metal, and goblins had their points increased).
Now everyone prefers savages to normal boyz (s.orcs got great new plastic models and orc boyz got a point increase).

I think people are over reacting regarding the new orc boyz point cost.
Savage Orcs have always performed better in battle for me, but orc boyz are cheaper.
So, in my opinion, both units are viable, good choices.

As for night goblins over common ones, I think it's because of the nets...

(edit. hey, made it to librarian, who would have thought it...)

H33D
05-10-2011, 01:52
I take Gorbad, a shrunken head savage big un unit and the rest of my core is nothing but normal orc big uns with 2hw. gorbad goes in a bigun boar boy unit. do big uns count towards the ops question?

Andy p
05-10-2011, 08:55
^That sounds vicious.

AmaroK
05-10-2011, 09:50
^That sounds vicious.

Indeed, it does, but sometimes it is not that good (the savages unit + shrunken head). The shrunken head is an arcane item, and it has to be taken by a mage. Any unit with a character higher initiative than 2 (and higher initiative than his own unit) will alocate attacks on the mage (which is the usual tactic anyways when you get the chance to kill a mage) and it is not that hard to kill a "naked" mage (+5 ward save, but no armor, and no combat stats). Then, the unit would loose the +5 ward when we go down the initiative ladder. Still, the unit can deliver a good punch but its defense may be gone.

I know it can sound pretty situational, but I have seen it happening (and did this myself when I faced that unit). Thatīs because if you are going to engage savages, either is with chaff units to redirect/delay, or you go with your hard hitting unit as well (which surely contains at least one character).

Still, itīs a very good choice, but it has some weaknesses as well (which is something good).

Oogie boogie boss
05-10-2011, 11:20
On the flip side though, who says the Shaman has to go in the front of the unit? Seriously, is there any rule that states that the character MUST be in the front rank? Because if not, what's to stop you putting him in the middle or on the side, that way he can't be targeted in combat, but the unit still gets the benefit of the LSH.
Not very Orcy, i know, but it would keep him alive.

Richmt11
05-10-2011, 11:40
Huh?

Without getting a rulebook for references, of course your characters go front rank... Unless you are 3 wide as command goes in first then you can put chars behind...

Oogie boogie boss
05-10-2011, 12:07
I know that's the way it always goes, but does it actually say in the rulebook where the characters have to go in the unit? (I don't actually have a rulebook)

Arijharn
05-10-2011, 12:22
I know that's the way it always goes, but does it actually say in the rulebook where the characters have to go in the unit? (I don't actually have a rulebook)

Yes. pg.97 of the rulebook under the section Position in the Unit specifies this. I have no idea if the page number is different if someone is using the BRB though.

Richmt11
05-10-2011, 12:22
Yeah hope I didnt offend I'm sure you know the rules. There's a section on characters joining units and I'm sure it's there where they must be placed.

As casualties are removed from the back if I could put my Mage in back rank he's set up to die first. But then if I equip him with forlaiths robes it makes my whole unit immune to non magical attacks as he would never get wounded lol. But saying that if my Mage refuses a challenge and is sent to back doesn't that have same effect for all my rank and file guys lol

Oogie boogie boss
05-10-2011, 13:20
Ah, i did wonder. Again, i thought that would be the case, but not having a rulebook i couldn't check, and it seemed like one of those things wich is so fundamental it might have been overlooked. Good to know.

wizbix
05-10-2011, 13:22
Irrelevant of the rules, an Orc Character that doesnt fight his way to the front rank every time, is no Orc character at all.

Oogie boogie boss
05-10-2011, 13:37
Well said. :p

Gustav Kohn
05-10-2011, 14:43
Irrelevant of the rules, an Orc Character that doesnt fight his way to the front rank every time, is no Orc character at all.

On that note however, who the heck thinks it is ok to have an orc character with one attack? I would say that one of my major disappointments with the book was that shamans are still useless in combat. I am not asking for a WoC scorceror by any means, but at least make him have two attacks. He is still an orc for goodness sake. Did he forget that he loves to hit stuff when he learned how to use magic? NO!

Oogie boogie boss
05-10-2011, 14:47
To be fair, SO Shamans get 2 attacks due to frenzy, but i agree that they should be a wee bit more hitty than the average spell slinger.

Leogun_91
05-10-2011, 15:14
Irrelevant of the rules, an Orc Character that doesnt fight his way to the front rank every time, is no Orc character at all.Clearly a bigger Black orc boss decided it was a good tactic and bashed it into the orc.

On that note however, who the heck thinks it is ok to have an orc character with one attack? I would say that one of my major disappointments with the book was that shamans are still useless in combat. I am not asking for a WoC scorceror by any means, but at least make him have two attacks. He is still an orc for goodness sake. Did he forget that he loves to hit stuff when he learned how to use magic? NO!He does have the stats of a normal orc (means he fights just as much as the other boyz but not as good as the bosses) and a great shaman has S4. In addition Fists of Gork can be paired with a magical weapon to give your great shaman say five strength seven (eight first round) attacks at WS10.

wizbix
05-10-2011, 19:11
The only certainty in this whole debate is that that every thing is better than a base of snotlings. Yes even generic Orc boys!

Andy p
06-10-2011, 17:51
Indeed, it does, but sometimes it is not that good (the savages unit + shrunken head). The shrunken head is an arcane item, and it has to be taken by a mage. Any unit with a character higher initiative than 2 (and higher initiative than his own unit) will alocate attacks on the mage (which is the usual tactic anyways when you get the chance to kill a mage) and it is not that hard to kill a "naked" mage (+5 ward save, but no armor, and no combat stats). Then, the unit would loose the +5 ward when we go down the initiative ladder. Still, the unit can deliver a good punch but its defense may be gone.

I know it can sound pretty situational, but I have seen it happening (and did this myself when I faced that unit). Thatīs because if you are going to engage savages, either is with chaff units to redirect/delay, or you go with your hard hitting unit as well (which surely contains at least one character).

Still, itīs a very good choice, but it has some weaknesses as well (which is something good).

Well yeah, I would have thought that went without saying, I mean I thought it would have been standard 8th practice now to go for characters who give a bonus to their unit or those around them, like a bsb or the Savage shaman with shrunken head.

But my comment was more aimed at his entire list, not just a savage horde.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
08-10-2011, 20:37
I take none since I play all gobbos:cool:

Bingo the Fun Monkey
09-10-2011, 10:49
Internet wisdom says this isn't a good idea but I like to take my BO General with AoD and BOBSB with ToP(4+) in a unit of 40 Orc boyz with sword n' board. If something horrible like Dwellers or a particularly good Flames of the Phoenix hits 'em they'll just mosey on into that other unit of 40 Orc boyz with sword n' board next to 'em. I have 100+ orc boyz, I'll be damned if I don't use 'em! However, the Savage Orc box is very appealing... My army as it stand is strictly "vanilla". Even my night gobbos (old ones from 5th/6th ed) are kit bashed with common gobbos and painted as a mercenary company.