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View Full Version : Getting hosed by a new (Empire) book?



PurpleSun
04-10-2011, 00:26
I designed, purchased, assembled, and am now in the midst of painting a large Empire army. I began this endeavor before the rumors of a new book came out. I designed the army for the current book under 8th Edition.

My question is for those who have been playing much longer than myself and have seen armies evolve over the years under new army books and new basic rule books:

Is it likely I will end up redesigning my army when a new army book comes out?

I have already painted: 20 Handgunners, 15 Knights, 7 Warmachines, 5 Outriders, War Alter, 8 Characters.

I am currently painting: 40 Halberdiers, 40 Swordsmen, 40 Greatswords, and 30 Flagellants.

Lord Inquisitor
04-10-2011, 00:29
You might see some change in the optimum units but the 8th Ed books have been pretty good at making sure people's existing armies are still usable.

phoenixguard09
04-10-2011, 00:31
Unfortunately Lord Inquisitor, all good things come to an end. :D

I'd be worried about your 7 warmachines but aside from that you should be relatively safe.

Geep
04-10-2011, 00:33
A new Empire book will probably not hurt.

GW have moved away from discarding units from books (and all of what you have listed is pretty common anyway)- so you'll be almost certainly safe there.

Some units may get comparatively better or worse, but you have a decent mix of units in your list as well, so any hit you take should be countered by a boost to another unit type. Empire rules are already pretty solid- I doubt we'll see sweeping changes. Detachments may become better (as that's a special Empire 'thing'), and you can expect some new centrepiece models (rumours have a War Wagon last I heard).

Okuto
04-10-2011, 00:57
Wait isn't there already one of these topics currently being discussed?

PurpleSun
04-10-2011, 01:18
Wait isn't there already one of these topics currently being discussed?

There is a discussion about the new book, which is filled with pages of wish listing. I was looking for some input on whether GW makes drastic changes over the years between books.

Okuto
04-10-2011, 02:17
Well in depends....usually for empire they tend to leave it as is, maybe add a few things but they generally don't do anything crazy like getting rid of detachments, etc.

Voss
04-10-2011, 02:49
Some of the more exotic warmachines rules may change... especially the rares.
The basic infantry hasn't changed much in a long time.

Okuto
04-10-2011, 02:54
I only expect to get more exotic artillery pieces and more monsters...sigh....

Gekiganger
04-10-2011, 03:01
Generally you get rule changes and balancing acts, but everything should still be usable. I can't remember the last time GW phased anything out. Your list might not be as optimal as before, but that's as bad as it might get.

Okuto
04-10-2011, 03:19
They usually do that in 40k....

Though going from HE 6th edition to 7th was pretty game changing....and DE had a big change too

Although DE were plagued from the start of their 6th edition incarnation...one of the few times GW had to actually amend the book

Jind_Singh
04-10-2011, 04:16
Empire? No problems!!! If anything paint faster so that way you can grab nice juicy new kits as they come out!!

It might be possible to see new Empire Knights though - the current batch, while still good looking, are a bit outdated compared to other Empire range models.

Militia may also get repacked to unit sizes of 10 - so grab them while you can (note to myself to grab 3 boxes).

otherwise I don't see how it can change - Empire has always been the Empire - Troops, war machines, and knights!!!

FOR SIGMAR!

herbtarkel
04-10-2011, 04:23
I would never be worried about a new book! I have been through 4 Orcs&Goblins books now, and every one has been different but still fun. And the more stuff you build, the more options you will have.

Enjoy!

mrtn
04-10-2011, 07:57
Generally you get rule changes and balancing acts, but everything should still be usable. I can't remember the last time GW phased anything out. Your list might not be as optimal as before, but that's as bad as it might get.

The chaos split was pretty revolutionary and discarded people's units left, right and centre. I wouldn't be as worried about Empire though.

As long as your army looks like how GW thinks your army should look you should be fairly safe, but if you have a whacky theme (like all mounted or all gunline or something) I wouldn't feel as sure.

Sparowl
04-10-2011, 08:13
I can't remember the last time GW phased anything out.

Storm of chaos? Has it really been that long?

Urgat
04-10-2011, 09:16
Well in depends....usually for empire they tend to leave it as is, maybe add a few things but they generally don't do anything crazy like getting rid of detachments, etc.

What do you mean, generally?
They didn't make sweeping changes with the 7th ed book. The 6th ed book cut away enormous quantities of stuff. Your "generally" is, in fact, "once" :p
Not that I believe they're going to cut away anything this time, I just felt like being petty :p

Oogie boogie boss
04-10-2011, 11:17
I think you've got enough stuff there to cover any changes they might make. It may be that you'll have to use the Greatswords or Knights in smaller units due to restrictions or points increase, but i doubt they'll get rid of anything.

Lord Inquisitor
04-10-2011, 14:53
What do you mean, generally?
They didn't make sweeping changes with the 7th ed book. The 6th ed book cut away enormous quantities of stuff. Your "generally" is, in fact, "once" :p
Not that I believe they're going to cut away anything this time, I just felt like being petty :p

Since the last Empire book, we've seen several armies see a resurgence of old, cut units. Verminlord, doomwheel, fiends of slaanesh, etc. Not so much recently but then TK and Ogres only ever had 1 book before this so nothing was ever cut out.

I don't know if you'd see a return to imperial ogres (although that could be an awesome kit indeed) or dwarfs but halflings (particularly the old favourite the hot pot) and other old units might see a return.

PurpleSun
04-10-2011, 15:17
Since the last Empire book, we've seen several armies see a resurgence of old, cut units. Verminlord, doomwheel, fiends of slaanesh, etc. Not so much recently but then TK and Ogres only ever had 1 book before this so nothing was ever cut out.

I don't know if you'd see a return to imperial ogres (although that could be an awesome kit indeed) or dwarfs but halflings (particularly the old favourite the hot pot) and other old units might see a return.

My biggest fear is that I am just going to complete painting all the infantry, and then the new book will come out, and the new meta will be T4 Imperial Dwarves and Halfling Slings/Hotpots for Core.

This happened also to my buddy, who just started VC recently, and now is hearing all these stories about Flesh Golems and plastic Black Coaches and better zombies.

Voss
04-10-2011, 15:24
My biggest fear is that I am just going to complete painting all the infantry, and then the new book will come out, and the new meta will be T4 Imperial Dwarves and Halfling Slings/Hotpots for Core.

:eyebrows: I think you can feel safe with the assumption that the Empire won't become the Dwarf-Halfling Alliance. A detachment from the Moot in the special or rare slot might happen, but GW really likes the human Empire, and its unlikely to become heavily influenced by the small minority populations of other races within the borders of the Empire.

SunTzu
04-10-2011, 15:30
While I hope to see Halflings and Imperial Dwarfs in the list, I'm certain as certain can be that if they do appear, they won't be Core.

Core Imperial Dwarfs would make it possible to build an Empire army tolerably identical to the Dwarf army, only with magic and cavalry. Can't see that happening.

Personally I'd make them both Rare but that's just me. GW tend not to like putting infantry in the Rare category nowadays (if indeed they're going to put these units in the list at all which remains a wishlist AFAIK); it's usually Special, with Rare reserved for war machines and monsters. I know a lot of people would complain if Halflings and Imperial Dwarfs were Rare ("why would you take Halflings when you could take a Steam Tank!?") but to me that's immaterial ("...because they're not supposed to be there as an efficient optimal unit, but to provide theme, character and variation").

Lord Inquisitor
04-10-2011, 15:39
My biggest fear is that I am just going to complete painting all the infantry, and then the new book will come out, and the new meta will be T4 Imperial Dwarves and Halfling Slings/Hotpots for Core.

This happened also to my buddy, who just started VC recently, and now is hearing all these stories about Flesh Golems and plastic Black Coaches and better zombies.

What really sucks is when you get a model (in my case a 2nd scraplauncher) and shortly afterwards a plastic version comes out. However, by and large the worst that happens is that you buy some more models and add to your army. I've added a big monster, ironblaster and I'm going to get some mournfangs too. The only unit I'm finding it hard to take is my second scraplauncher - everything else in my existing army is still usable even if I don't take it every game.

Ultimately the best defence is - buy and paint the models you like. They are unlikely to be useless in the new book. If you buy and paint models purely for in-game effect then maybe best hold off on painting more until the new book comes out. Still, it's pretty safe that the staples will still be halberdiers, spearmen, swordsmen, handgunners, artillery and knights, etc.

Edit:

And I don't see Imperial Dwarfs happening. Dwarfs have their own book. Ogres have their own book. Halflings I wouldn't be surprised by however.

FashaTheDog
04-10-2011, 15:46
What really sucks is when you get a model (in my case a 2nd scraplauncher) and shortly afterwards a plastic version comes out.

I don't know there are a number of models I have in metal (Empire Great Swords, Tyranid Ravengers, IG Catachans, skeletons (Nightmare Legion specifically), zombies, Chaos Knights) or resin (Tyranid Trygon) that were later released in plastic and I was quite happy that I have the older sculpts which just look better, if anything I am actually upset that I didn't get more.

Lord Inquisitor
04-10-2011, 16:26
True, occasionally but that's usually the exception. In any case, the Empire range is so well-rounded and almost entirely plastic that the one model that's begging to be redone is the War Altar. Anything else? Maybe some of the character models. That's about it, rumours are that none of the existing plastics are being redone.

decker_cky
04-10-2011, 18:14
I'd imagine a war altar, new knights, a few new characters and whatever unit they add (war wagon could make sense). Probably makes sense for them to finecast the griffon, an engineer and a priest (or do those in plastic) so there's a complete plastic army available aside from a few mount options.

As far as army selection - you'll generally be pretty safe taking cheap infantry in 8th edition, even if it's not the most ideal option. Greatswords will likely be improved in some way. Mortars and hellstorms will likely take a little nerf or price increase, and the hellblaster should get a boost in some way.

Sexiest_hero
04-10-2011, 18:43
You'll be fine. GW learned the error of it's ways with the VC CSM 5th edition debacle. People still **** over that now. GW has be adding lots of Old school things to tip off to the vets, Even if it's just a "fun unit".

I Give GW mad props in changing their mode from. Make all the old things suck so they have to buy new things to Make things cheaper so they can add more things. I do see the limiting of War machines, and a cool, monster like kit.

Phaedron2
04-10-2011, 20:08
Honestly, I wouldnt worry about what the "meta" with the new book turns out to be. It wouldnt make any good business sense to render things like state troops worthless in a new army book. As long as you have a collection, rather then just a specific army list then these new books we just be fun oppertunities to get some new stuff, and maybe breathe some life into units you may not have used before.

popisdead
04-10-2011, 20:38
Well looking at the current three 8th ed books, aside from the removal of magic gear there was an addition/improvement of units and abilities.

I would say you are going to be paying more for Mortars but infantry/cavalry blocks will remain largely the same.

I haven't met anyone who feels they were "hosed", rules-wise, when their army got an 8th ed book.

Schmapdi
04-10-2011, 20:45
Tell that to my unit of Gnoblar trappers with their PITA skirmish movement tray I built like a month before the New Ogres book came out.

./grumble

Chiron
04-10-2011, 21:43
Tell that to my unit of Gnoblar trappers with their PITA skirmish movement tray I built like a month before the New Ogres book came out.

./grumble

Noone mentions Skirmishers this edition, they are GW's dirty little secret...

PurpleSun
04-10-2011, 22:37
I should add that the reason that I am gun shy here is what happened to my Wood Elves Forest Spirit list. I ran three units of 8 dryads for my core, which was about 288 points. I now had to go out buy and paint 36 more dryads so that I could meet core requirements in 8th Edition.

So, when I hear a new book is coming out, I can only wait with eager anticipation to see how it will change my lists.

H33D
05-10-2011, 02:04
I got 2 units of 12 warriors with shields for my dwarfs from the starter set last edition, as well as 2 units of 10 thunderers, 2 units of 8 miners, 2 dragon slayers, 2 thanes, and 2 units of 8 miners. I completed 2 large units of 25 shield warriors just before 8th edition came out and now I never field them except as longbeard proxies but thats rare. i hope the empire book has equal love to all models in it tbh.