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Lord Dan
04-10-2011, 01:19
Alright so I was writing up a list tonight and I came across an interesting combination:

Arch Lector w/ Van Horstmann's Speculum, Armor of Fortune, Sword of Anti-heroes.

I wanted to determine how the effects of the Sword and the effects of the Speculum would stack, because I certainly don't want to swap the extra stats with my opponent. The rules for the speculum are as follows:

Empire Army Book, p. 69
"When the wearer fights a challenge he can "swap" his base attacks, weapon skill, strength, toughness, initiative, and attacks values with those of his enemy. ..."

Nothing about sequencing. Here are the rules for the sword:

BRB, p. 173
"The bearer has +1 strength and +1 attack for every enemy character in base contact with him or his unit. These bonuses are calculated at the start of the close combat round and last until its end."

Emphasis mine. So, pretty clear. The only other question I had was when, specifically, a challenge is issued to determine whether the effects of the sword pop before or after I've swapped stats with my opponent. Here is the relevant paragraph on challenges:

BRB, p. 102
"Challenges are issued at the start of the close combat round, before any blows are struck. ..."

Again, emphasis mine. Now I remembered reading something about what to do if two rules are triggered at the same time during a phase. I found it here:

BRB, p. 10
"Whilst every effort has been made to make sure that the sequencing of rules is utterly clear, occasionally you'll find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - normally "at the start of the movement phase", or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit at to which rule is resolve first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order."

So gentlemen, how does this work? Am I right in my assumption that on my turn I would get +1 A and +1S, and on my opponents he would get the bonus (or I would choose not to swap stats)?

ooglatjama
04-10-2011, 01:47
You swap base stats, so they bonus from the sword wouldn't go to him.

Lord Dan
04-10-2011, 02:01
I hope it's that simple. Is there anywhere in the rulebook that differentiates between base statlines and altered statlines? I ask because in this case the weapon doesn't say "attacks with this weapon are at +1 S and A", but instead say that the bearer has +1 S and A.

sulla
04-10-2011, 05:49
Hmmm...what do you think they mean by "base attacks, weapon skill, strength, toughness, initiative, and attacks values with those of his enemy. ..."?

stiggie
04-10-2011, 10:22
lol you answered it in the first post dude, it does state "base".. however thing of it this way, you swapped stats, not weapons, so he wouldnt get the +'s to str and atk simply because thats a weapons effect

Lord Dan
04-10-2011, 12:21
Please read my second post. The sword does not say: "Attacks made with this weapon are at +1 strength and +1 attack" in the way that most of the other weapons in the BRB do. Rather, the weapon says:

"The bearer has +1 strength and +1 attack for every enemy character in base contact with him or his unit."

My fear here is that the weapon is modifying the base statline, which is then swapped. So again, is there a section in the BRB that deals with the term "base statline", because I can't find one in either the main stat or weapon sections.

hamsterwheel
04-10-2011, 14:54
Please read my second post. The sword does not say: "Attacks made with this weapon are at +1 strength and +1 attack" in the way that most of the other weapons in the BRB do. Rather, the weapon says:

"The bearer has +1 strength and +1 attack for every enemy character in base contact with him or his unit."

My fear here is that the weapon is modifying the base statline, which is then swapped. So again, is there a section in the BRB that deals with the term "base statline", because I can't find one in either the main stat or weapon sections.

From the Warhammer FAQ


Q: When does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic give
that bonus?(p4)
A: Most weapons, including magic weapons, state when the
bonus is given. For example, a model with the Fencerís Blades
will always have Weapon Skill 10 whilst a model with a great
weapon will only have +2 Strength when striking an enemy in
close combat. When a weapon does not say when the
characteristic bonus applies, then it only applies when striking,
or being struck, in close combat

So no, the Sword of Anti-Heroes does not alter the base stats.

Lord Dan
04-10-2011, 15:39
Excellent. That' exactly what I was looking for.

decker_cky
04-10-2011, 18:00
Regardless...it's base stats. If you swap base stats with a model boosted by savage beast of horos, you don't get their +3A or +3S.

Lord Dan
04-10-2011, 18:17
Sure, that makes sense. Without the faq it just wasn't entirely clear what the definition of 'base' stats was.

sulla
04-10-2011, 18:57
Sure, that makes sense. Without the faq it just wasn't entirely clear what the definition of 'base' stats was.:DBut that's a pretty weak argument isn't it.

There's no definaition of base stats so I can chose for myself?...

Lord Dan
04-10-2011, 19:16
:DBut that's a pretty weak argument isn't it.

There's no definaition of base stats so I can chose for myself?...
Since the entire basis of my argument is on the fact that only the base stats are swapped, I wanted a clear explanation of what constitutes a "base stat" to avoid hours of arguing at tournaments.

AMWOOD co
05-10-2011, 04:03
I would say that 'base stat' is the models written stat line with only permanent modifiers applying. This obviously differs from the defined 'unmodified' stat.

This would include modifiers from the effects of magic items (eg. Pendant of Slaanesh), but not direct modifiers from items (eg. +1 T from Dwarf Master Rune). It will also be affected by permanent stat modifying special rules (eg. Giant's Mark of Khorne, Eye of the Gods results), but not temporary effects (eg. Choppa).

Now, this is self defined (ie. I pulled it out of nowehere). I can't think of anything better, but this definition fits the bill. As sulla said, there is no definition for 'base stat' in the book unless we use 'unmodified stat'.

sulla
05-10-2011, 04:26
Since the entire basis of my argument is on the fact that only the base stats are swapped, I wanted a clear explanation of what constitutes a "base stat" to avoid hours of arguing at tournaments.
Fair enough, and I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but has anyone ever disputed 'base' stats with you?

I mean, I know GW went and turned 'unmodified' on it's head with their FAQs, but generally, things like base (basic) and unmodified mean what they say.

Lord Dan
05-10-2011, 04:30
Fair enough, and I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but has anyone ever disputed 'base' stats with you?

I mean, I know GW went and turned 'unmodified' on it's head with their FAQs, but generally, things like base (basic) and unmodified mean what they say.
No, and truthfully I haven't played very many games of 8th edition. I remember this being argued in 7th quite a bit, so perhaps my concerns are just remnants from that edition.

I'm entering the tournament scene next year, so I want to get all my facts straight. :)

Harwammer
05-10-2011, 06:52
Email the TO for a ruling before you attend and print off his ruling.

You're right there is wiggleroom as I'm sure many would agree with AMWOOD's definition whereas others may claim base is synonymous with unmodified.

sulla
05-10-2011, 17:39
Yup, probably the safest option if in doubt.

Lord Dan
05-10-2011, 18:41
Good thought. Thanks again, guys!

ashc
05-10-2011, 19:09
'Base attacks' seems clear-cut to me, no matter.