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Ghost of War
05-10-2011, 14:06
So I just opened this badboy..

They redid the rules on this monster. Not sure anyone will ever let me play it without vortex missiles and grenades now. Its IMHO extremely OP. I cant imagine a Warlord beating it now (without mentioned Vortex Missiles)

p126.
ELDAR TITAN HOLOFIELDs
Everytime a hit is scored against an Eldar Titan that moved in the previous turn, the Eldar player rolls a dice. On a result of a 4 or more, the hit is discarded. If a Titan did not move it in the previous turn, it does not get this holo field save.

Entries on models with a titan holofield.

ELDAR TITAN HOLOFIELDS: As long a sa vehicle moved in the previous turn, it gains a 4+ invulnerable save against attacks.

So take these two items.

The Phantom got an overhaul.

A. Phantom Starcanon went up to 4 shots
B. You can no longer ignore stunned and move it to gun shaken and get the 4+ save. Not the steersman empowers a 3+ save vs Stunned, and Gun Shaken (like the Lynx)
C. See below.

IMPROVED ELDAR TITAN HOLOFIELDS
If the titan has not moved.. it has a 4+ inv
IF the titan moved at all.. that save becomes a 3+ invuln save
Also.. if something goes into hand to hand vs a Phantom titan that has moved (and its not a Gargant or enempy super heavy walker) it hits the Eldar titan on 6s.

So basically...

You shoot it 10 times.. 5 are ignored on simple odds

Maybe two crack the AV13? Which there is a 3+ inv save because it moved

You stun the driver? shake a gun? 3+ save via the steersman

You blow up a gun? 4+ gun crew save.

Understandably my friends are appauled. Makes me a little sad as I spent 4 months building and painting this thing.

ChrisMurray
05-10-2011, 14:18
I can understand why they improved the rules, it is most likely the most powerful single model that you will ever be able to field in an Eldar army (they may have more powerful ones in the fluff, but I can't see them making a larger titan than this one). So it should be suitably tough and hard to kill. We have no idea how tough the warlord titan will be, but FW have said when this was released that it didn't have as much firepower as a warlord, so a warlord could have special rules specificly to combat other "super" titans.

My guess is that they are working on the theory that in the future any one who is fielding a phantom is likely to be facing a warlord or large number of reavers and so it should even itself out. This is of course all just guesses. So yes it is tough, but maybe not over tough once a warlord is released.

What interests me is you say the rules specificly mention a Gargant. I hope that this means that FW are thinking of doing one after the warlord.

OT: Ghost of war, that bonesinger you painted up to accompany your phantom in games now seems abit unneccessary, although still a stunning model :)

Wishing
05-10-2011, 14:36
I guess that if the phantom is meant to be a match for the warlord, it needs really powerful inbuilt defenses to stand a chance. The phantom has only two titan-class weapons after all, and no void shields, where the warlord has four titan-class weapons and six void shields. The warlord having twice as many guns and ignoring the first six hits is quite a big advantage that the phantom has to make up for by having a holo-field...

Palvinore
05-10-2011, 14:40
As others have already said, the Warlord has more weapon mounts and has void shields which guarantee ignoring at least 6 hits from most weapons. The Eldar Phantom Titan therefore needs rules that can keep it alive and also its weapons operational else it would not be able to compete. Since it only has 2 arm mounts for Titan weapons, those weapons also have to be fearsomely powerful to compete against the Warlord's 4 weapon mounts.

Remember in the end all these saves only give the chance of ignoring hits. That means unlike a Warlord which can rest comfortably in knowing that at least 6 hits will be ignored, a Phantom could be taking damage from the 1st shot. If 6 shots hit a Warlord, 6 shields go down but it is unscratched. If 6 shots hit a Phantom, even a moving one, on average 2 shots still leak through the holofields and risk causing damage.

Ghost of War
05-10-2011, 14:56
I think your missing some info Palv...

Warlord unloads all its guns .. 50% are ignore by the holofield.. then if those remaining shots peirce the armor on the phantom it gets a 3+ inv save vs them. Then if they hit the driver, or shake the gun.. the Phantom gets a 3+ spiritguide/crew save for those two results. If it destroys a gun.. then the phantom would only get a 4+ crew save.

Its saves ontop of saves that make this thing more than a match for a Warlord currently*

That and a Phantom D-Canon bypasses the warlords shields and deals d3 destroyer hits to it. So its never going to be unscratched.

The point really is - there is no model for a warlord. My club doesnt have a warlord.

This titan will get like 1 use a year in a giant megabattle - otherwise its just to OP to be fun for my friends.

Edit: And yes.. the Spiritseer will not be used with the Phantom ever again. I dont want to be beat in the parking lot! I can use it for my Scorpion and Cobra though.. maybe the revenant.

ChrisMurray
05-10-2011, 15:01
If you and your firends were happy with the experimental rules, you could continue to use them. Or you could house rule the phantom and increase it's points cost (not sure if that would give your friends more of a chance or not).

djhowitzer
05-10-2011, 15:04
phantom + 2 farseers = inappropriate activity in my underpants

Ghost of War
05-10-2011, 15:06
We only played once - the Phantom pretty much made 10k orkz his b!tch (like 5 stompaz and more).

And the little bonesinger, he got out and fixed one drive on the phantom only to have 20 stormboyz drop down and assault and kill him.

Sildani
05-10-2011, 15:08
Why Farseers? Psychic powers without a Strength value can't affect super-heavies.

Palvinore
05-10-2011, 15:12
I think your missing some info Palv...

Warlord unloads all its guns .. 50% are ignore by the holofield.. then if those remaining shots peirce the armor on the phantom it gets a 3+ inv save vs them. Then if they hit the driver, or shake the gun.. the Phantom gets a 3+ spiritguide/crew save for those two results. If it destroys a gun.. then the phantom would only get a 4+ crew save.

Its saves ontop of saves that make this thing more than a match for a Warlord currently*


I don't see the saves stacking.

The 4+ holofield save is for things like Revenant Scout Titans.

The Phantom then has the Improved Holofield save in lieu of the normal Holofield, giving it 4+/3+ depending on whether it moved. 3+ save vs. Stunned or Shaken results or 4+ Primary Weapon save if Weapon Destroyed result. '

Also I think people have crunched the details of the D-Cannon vs. Pulsar before. The D-Cannon's bypassing of void shields is a nice little perk but 2 D3 hit weapons don't put out very much overall firepower compared ot a Warlord, which can kick out 10 D strength shots at maximum (2x Turbo Lasers, 2x Laser Blaster). A D-Cannon/Pulsar setup lacks synergy since the Pulsar does no good if void shields are still up, and the D-Cannon's perk is wasted if the void shields are knocked down. The only viable ranged setup I see working is 2 Pulsar for 8 D shots per turn, which also works in synergy with the secondary weapons since those can be used to knock down shields.

djhowitzer
05-10-2011, 15:15
you can fortune and guide your titan. where is the rule about not affecting super heavies please? i dont have the book to hand.

Ghost of War
05-10-2011, 15:16
main apoc book.. no pshyics on titans.. until a warlock comes.

Haywiregrenade
05-10-2011, 16:44
Yup you canot fortune and guide super heavies. By that rule you cannot doom Gargantuan Nids either :(
Imagine your 3+ inv save Phantom, re-rolling for fortune. You'd just carry a couple of Farseers in tricked Falcons within 6" at all times just for that! Or Eldrad. Fortune his own Falcon, then Fortune the Phantom.

The buffs are indeed a huge "improvement" even if it makes you no friends in your Apoc gaming circle. My main antagonist though has a Harridan, 2 Heirophants and 2 Heirodules and associated plethora of Monstrous and apoc formations galore. So should have no issue fielding the Phant there.

If he really one sides your games GoW, some house rules may assist for sure just to you can at least use the model. Perhaps the holofields weaken over time due to low energy reserves. T1 3+, T2 4+, T5 5+ or something...

MajorWesJanson
05-10-2011, 17:13
Have to read it myself, but does the Phantom have both Holofields and Enhanced holofields in the rules?

Any weapon with the Primary Weapon rule has the 4+ save vs gun shaken or destroyed

Warlord Rules are in the main Apoc book. They are GW rules, and FW does not change those units. Just makes their own versions on occasion, aka Kustom-Stompas.

Ghost of War
05-10-2011, 17:36
It only has Improved Titan Holofields.. so maybe he doenst net the weaker bennies as well. It does however have a rule that takes the gun save/driver save to a 3+

BigBarryJazz
05-10-2011, 17:37
I'd be very surprised if it gets both types of holo-fields. If it lists separate rules on the datasheet then I'd have thought they overrule those in the back of the book rather than having both. Does it have separate rules for the lynx's fields like it did in the experimental rules, GoW?

I haven't seen it myself but I'm told that the book clarifies that AP1 does give +1 to the damage roll against super heavies, but it also clarifies that AP1 and destroyer don't stack. If that's the case then it takes some of the sting from the phantom's pulsar.

Ghost of War
05-10-2011, 17:50
AP1 and Destoryer no longer stack - end of debate.. its detailed in several places.

Spirit Guides: The Phantom Titan's wraithbone core is inhabited by ancient spirits which aid and guide the eldar steersman in battle. If the Phantom Titan suffers a Driver Stunned or a Gun Crew Shaken result. These may be ignored on a d6 roll of 3 or more.

Haywiregrenade
05-10-2011, 18:38
Yeah clarification on AP1 and D was cleared up. They do not stack. Boo hiss!

But the rest is right
3+/4+ inv (who is not going to move at least 1mm for that increase without a weapon shooting penalty?)
You then have a 3+ save to the Gun Crew Shaken and Driver Stunned result
You then have a 4+ save to primary weapon destroyed damage rolls (crew save)

Basically you are going to have to work very hard to stop it!!!

Splog
05-10-2011, 19:27
Deploying possibly rusty maths. For a best case scenario for the Phantom in terms of being able to discount hits we assume it is moving for a better save, and the shooter always opts for weapon hits to be on a primary weapon.

Destroyer/AP1 hits: Ignored 73% of the time. You would then need to factor in rolls to hit and penetrate (largely irrelevant for big blast D weapons?).

Non Destroyer/AP1 hits that glance: Ignored 84% of the time. You'll also need to factor in the to-hit roll and the chance to get a glance.

Worst case: Assuming blast D (no penetration rolls) weapons always hitting (no to hit rolls), a Stationary Phantom (4+ save), and the attacker not opting to hit primary weapons: Ignored 56% of the time.

MajorWesJanson
05-10-2011, 19:35
It only has Improved Titan Holofields.. so maybe he doenst net the weaker bennies as well. It does however have a rule that takes the gun save/driver save to a 3+

If it only has the Improved Holofields, it does not have the lesser one's benefits.


AP1 and Destoryer no longer stack - end of debate.. its detailed in several places.

Spirit Guides: The Phantom Titan's wraithbone core is inhabited by ancient spirits which aid and guide the eldar steersman in battle. If the Phantom Titan suffers a Driver Stunned or a Gun Crew Shaken result. These may be ignored on a d6 roll of 3 or more.

Destroyer and AP1 don't stack? Boo. There goes one more way to differentiate the upper end weapons. D weapon need a re-write. Actually, everything in the suyperheavy range needs a rewrite. Maybe take up the cap for stats on Superheavy vehicles and Gargantuan creatures. Would really help with balancing them and fitting them into games.

RobPro
05-10-2011, 21:52
I'm a fan of jump jets + Titan CCW myself

Sildani
05-10-2011, 23:09
Huh? The Phantom can have jump jets?!

RobPro
06-10-2011, 15:50
Didn't it have something ridiculous that let it move fast in the pdf?

Godzooky
06-10-2011, 15:54
Didn't it have something ridiculous that let it move fast in the pdf?

Legs come as standard... :shifty:

Tethylis
06-10-2011, 16:11
I believe it can fleet an extra 2-3d6 depending on whether it fires a single weapon or not.

Fable
06-10-2011, 16:14
I did a test game with the Phantom last weekend and yes it was powerful, but with a maximum firepower being roughly half of what a Warlord could pump out they opted to go defensive with it (really bumping up Holo-fields and spirit stones). A Warlord is pretty close to a god machine in most Apoc battles with more weapons and longer ranges, and without a model people have to scrape together their own models, but do have the benefit of GW rules in the Apoc book.

Mind you, in a smaller game my Phantom survived unscathed with all those saves, and to tone it down a bit I took the CCW with D-cannon. But FW obviously wanted the beast to be worth 2500 pts. It reminds me a lot of the Epic version oddly, like it's impossible to make damage stick. The Phantom has fewer guns so it's important that they keep firing.

Also of note is that the Phantom can use its CCW against anything it charges, compared to the Warlord who can only use it against Gargantuan creatures and super heavies.

The change to the Starcannon was slight, but had a huge effect on making it a real option against the Pulse laser.

Just think, at 2500 pts it has to be able to put down the same kind of beating as 2 reavers or 3 warhounds and I think they captured that pretty well.

But yeah, if you value your knees not knowing the pain of a crowbar then I'd suggest not running the Bonesinger with it anymore.

Also, the 6's to hit in combat made me squeal with glee.

Jackmojo
06-10-2011, 17:07
It s a shame there's no rules for damaging titan systems in apocalypse, back in epic 2nd it was common to focus fire on a titans shields (void or holo) so that it was weakened defensively for follow on fire.

Perhaps a house-rule for treating shields as a primary weapon damage option (i.e. choose 'shields' as the 'weapon' damaged and allow it a 4+ save like a primary weapon as well as the option to be fixed by damage control)?

Jack

cuda1179
06-10-2011, 17:46
I did a test game with the Phantom last weekend and yes it was powerful, but with a maximum firepower being roughly half of what a Warlord .

A Phantom with Pulsars has 8 D-strength shots plus the missiles and pulsars.

A Warlord (turbo lasers and Laser Blasters) has 10 strength D shots.

I hardly call that HALF the firepower, especially since the Phantom has longer range with those configureations.

BigBarryJazz
06-10-2011, 18:06
A Phantom with Pulsars has 8 D-strength shots plus the missiles and pulsars.

A Warlord (turbo lasers and Laser Blasters) has 10 strength D shots.

I hardly call that HALF the firepower, especially since the Phantom has longer range with those configureations.

You're right, it definitely is quite close to the Warlord in terms of firepower. However, the Warlord can split those D-strength shots between four targets. Four destroyer templates on one vehicle or squad is usually overkill.

cuda1179
06-10-2011, 22:26
You're right, it definitely is quite close to the Warlord in terms of firepower. However, the Warlord can split those D-strength shots between four targets. Four destroyer templates on one vehicle or squad is usually overkill.

Well, if you are firing at superheavies you actually will be needing all 4 strength D-shots most of the time. If you are shooting at normal vehicles then the Phantom's shoulder weapons aren't exatly useless after all.


Honestly though, I really like the Inititive, attacks, and weapon skill of a Phantom. Put a Titan close combat weapon on it and have some fun.

Oh, is the Phantom still limited to just one CCW? I always wondered why Warlords and Reavers could have two, but a Phantom only one.