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Shyvax
05-10-2011, 14:33
Hey guys, Is it possible to play the dogs of war army with the latest edition of warhammer?
I really like the minis and would like to start a small army.

Tarliyn
05-10-2011, 14:55
Casual games, most likely unless you play jerky people

Tournys, ask the organizer

Make sure to go check out the big dogs of war forum site. Just google dogs of war, you'll find it.

Never played with it but have against. It is good fun

Zark the Damned
05-10-2011, 16:44
http://dogsofwaronline.com/forum/index.php

DOW can be played in 8th (and got a significant boost from the common magic items), and many people do.

The fan list on the above site is picking up sanctioned status from many independent tournaments so you should have no problem with those.

You will not be able to use them in a GW store or official tourney though.

Your FLGC / FLGC should allow them unless everyone there is a WAAC jerk.

Okuto
05-10-2011, 17:39
Fun friendly games....GW has saw fit we don't see the light of day.....though Orge kingdoms adopted one of the dogs of war characters.

Maybe Empire an dwarves will adopt the rest in short time....

Though my DOWs bulk out my empire army nowadays

popisdead
05-10-2011, 18:48
http://dogsofwaronline.com/forum/index.php

You will not be able to use them in a GW store or official tourney though

Awesome link!!!

I cannot see why a GW store should disallow it. They released the models and rules. From a 'customer' standpoint it should be fine. I can see the issues of such old rules though.

Shyvax
05-10-2011, 18:48
cheers guys for the link. Too bad they don't carry on the dogs of war concept. once again thanks to the community ^^

Kulgur
05-10-2011, 18:51
You will not be able to use them in a GW store or official tourney though.

Point of order, my local GW lets me use them, usually on the proviso that if I'm using the fan list I don't spring it on people. The GW list ravening hordes list is effectively fine.

someone2040
06-10-2011, 01:58
Awesome link!!!

I cannot see why a GW store should disallow it. They released the models and rules. From a 'customer' standpoint it should be fine. I can see the issues of such old rules though.
Yeah, the problem is they're old, and not widely available anymore.
There are lots of rules (more recent even) than Dogs of War that are not allowed, such as Lustria and Storm of Chaos that are not allowed either.
Similarly in 40k, all the codexes from 3rd ed onwards are compatible, but don't walk into a GW store expecting them to allow you to use Codex Catachans or something from back in the day.

But yeah, I would personally only bring out the DoW with friends nowdays.

JackBurton01
06-10-2011, 03:38
I play in tourneys all the time and everyone is really enthusiastic. It's not an overpowered list by any means.

Ister Flersson
06-10-2011, 06:43
Are GW seriously that bithcy about their own old products? I have never actually set foot in a regular Games Workshop store, but if this is the attitude one can expect I am not sure I want to. It doesn't even make sense from a sales perpective since many units are still avaiable for purchasing.

popisdead
06-10-2011, 18:10
Are GW seriously that bithcy about their own old products?.

I don't know. Our current GW store manager says "you guys are part of the hobby as equally as me and the store" so his attitude is promote a healthy gaming scene.

There are a couple DoW armies in town but I haven't seen them in 8th ed. When they were brought out in 6th/7th ed people were more excited to see them than felt they shouldn't be played.

yabbadabba
06-10-2011, 18:41
Technically GW do not support DoW. Doesn't mean to say you can't use them but everyone interprets GWs stance their own way andyou mind find some resistance. Just take it with a pinch of salt.

eron12
06-10-2011, 18:53
Are GW seriously that bithcy about their own old products? I have never actually set foot in a regular Games Workshop store, but if this is the attitude one can expect I am not sure I want to. It doesn't even make sense from a sales perpective since many units are still avaiable for purchasing.

I would expect the resistance is not so much to Dogs of War, as it is to using a fanmade ruleset, when DoW have offical (if dated) rules. If GW wants a person to use GW warhammer rules in one of their stores it makes sense to me.

As people have pointed out it will very from person to person and store to store.

BigRob
06-10-2011, 19:11
Games Workshops policy seems to be "If we sell it you can play it" so Dogs of War should be fine, they have the PDF list from the website and Warhammer Chronicles, they have the models in the collectors section of the website.

Don't go in expecting to get to play Warhammer Quest, Man'o'War or anything like that though.

Dogs of War got a boost from common magic items but also a loss in the of Some of the more powerful Dogs of War characters and units are no longer allowed as they are now elsewhere (Storm of Magic for example) and/or book changed (Ogres etc). Of course there is nothing to stop you using some of the Storm of Magic characters/monsters in an army with opponents permission, its not all about what GW tell you to do.

I like the Dogs of War concept even if it did kind of end up evolving into "Warhammer Armies: Tilea".

thesheriff
06-10-2011, 19:14
Games Workshops policy seems to be "If we sell it you can play it" so Dogs of War should be fine, they have the PDF list from the website and Warhammer Chronicles, they have the models in the collectors section of the website.


Point of order, my local GW lets me use them, usually on the proviso that if I'm using the fan list I don't spring it on people. The GW list ravening hordes list is effectively fine.

WHAAT? What kind of GW do you play in.

We cant use Dogs od War, Zombie Pirates or anything like that in GW's. We made a club to play things like that.

I need to go to one of your GW's

thesheriff

yabbadabba
06-10-2011, 19:22
they have the PDF list from the website What pdf? I can't find one, could you supply a link please?

ashc
06-10-2011, 19:34
DoW are in a similar position to Chaos Dwarfs (that is, until Warhammer Forge recently came along).

popisdead
07-10-2011, 18:48
Technically GW do not support DoW.

I always took "does not support" and "allows you to play" as two different things. The former meaning they are not writing new rules and making the models available.

No local GW should ban products they have sold. That is pretty slimy.

yabbadabba
07-10-2011, 18:50
I always took "does not support" and "allows you to play" as two different things. The former meaning they are not writing new rules and making the models available.
No local GW should ban products they have sold. That is pretty slimy. So people should be allowed to play D+D or poker instore, bring in kites to repair etc?

BigRob
07-10-2011, 21:19
I mean I was told that only items currently for sale in the store could be used. This included the main games and some of the SG range that was still around (the warhammer quest game that had been going for a year and a half was told to leave).

Dogs of War as an army have never been a problem, provided they use GW models (which now cost a stupid amount). Of course this is all dependent on your local manager. I had one who told me I wasn't allowed to use 2nd edition metal necrons in store.....

spurker
08-10-2011, 13:45
I was disappointed when dogs of war disappeared. I was just getting into GW games and couldn't decide on a system or army. I was going to go with dogs of war (inspired by reading blackhearts books), but they disappeared and I couldn't decide on another. SO I went with CSM and 40K. I'm now looking at starting ogres, but would still like to see dogs of war make a reappearance.

Ister Flersson
08-10-2011, 14:00
I like the Dogs of War concept even if it did kind of end up evolving into "Warhammer Armies: Tilea".

This is actually the way I like it :D My army consists of about 50 pikemen, around 20 crossbowmen, 7 heavy cavalry and 6 light cavalry, with 15 converted paymasters bodyguard, all of which are official Dogs of War units. Not exactly the most powerful army, but it looks great with nearly every model covered in bronze plate armour.

popisdead
12-10-2011, 23:49
So people should be allowed to play D+D or poker instore, bring in kites to repair etc?

D+D? Do you mean D&D?

I think it's within reason to show up to a GW store and use an army they still sell models for, if you are implying product GW has sold.

They don't sell Mordheim/Necromunda or support it in the store however it isn't uncommon to see people playing it in a GW.

yabbadabba
13-10-2011, 00:13
D+D? Do you mean D&D? Pointless pedantry?

I think it's within reason to show up to a GW store and use an army they still sell models for, if you are implying product GW has sold. Woth no current rules and no pdf update or errata or FAQs for the new edition? And with no mention of pikes in the new rules either. How do you propose the GW manager justify that? By extension it is perfectly acceptable to turn up with a bear in your Empire army, just because GW sells them as a model.

They don't sell Mordheim/Necromunda or support it in the store however it isn't uncommon to see people playing it in a GW. Nor is it common. GW have had several SG purges over the years and a lot of that is down to the local manager rather than any GW directive. Its the same with FW models and rules, GWs stores are far from consistent with them.

GW just doesn't support DoW anymore. They just aren't daft enough to remove them from the website when they have stock left and there might be a trickle sell.

Gwyddyon
13-10-2011, 02:48
How do you propose the GW manager justify that?


...they have stock left...

I guess your question was rhetorical?

yabbadabba
13-10-2011, 08:28
I guess your question was rhetorical? Not at all. Think about it.

Gwyddyon
13-10-2011, 14:37
I go in to a store. I plop some Ricco's Republican Guard down on the table. Someone else likes the minis, asks where to get them. They are sent to the online store, where they potentially buy stock that's been sitting there for years. GW makes money. Everybody wins.

Thought about it. Still pretty sure you answered your own question.

Zark the Damned
13-10-2011, 14:49
I go in to a store. I plop some Ricco's Republican Guard down on the table. Someone else likes the minis, asks where to get them. They are sent to the online store, where they potentially buy stock that's been sitting there for years. GW makes money. Everybody wins.

Thought about it. Still pretty sure you answered your own question.

You play with the fan made rules as the GW ones aren't on their site any more (need to check this but don't have time to trawl through it atm). People ask where you got the fandex so you give them the link. They go online and see all the armies made with historical minis etc. for much cheaper than GW prices. GW loses out on sales.

(sorry, just playing GW's advocate ;))

Gwyddyon
13-10-2011, 15:02
You play with the fan made rules as the GW ones aren't on their site any more (need to check this but don't have time to trawl through it atm). People ask where you got the fandex so you give them the link. They go online and see all the armies made with historical minis etc. for much cheaper than GW prices. GW loses out on sales.

(sorry, just playing GW's advocate ;))

Alternatively, I use the WD army list since the PDF is still floating around and I've got a physical copy of the relevant Chronicles, GW still makes money off of selling old stock, and your point is invalid.;)

Historical minis aren't exactly a secret if you do any gaming or shopping outside of a GW store. GW's DoW minis are, even if you ONLY game inside a GW store. I'd argue that bringing attention to their remaining stock can do nothing but help GW - more sales, more available storage for new things.

Zark the Damned
13-10-2011, 15:06
Alternatively, I use the WD army list since the PDF is still floating around and I've got a physical copy of the relevant Chronicles, GW still makes money off of selling old stock, and your point is invalid.;)

By the same rules you could justify using the previous version of the Skaven book or the Storm of Chaos lists etc. which aren't generally allowed in stores. If the DOW rules were still on the GW site you'd have a point ;)

Gwyddyon
13-10-2011, 15:11
By the same rules you could justify using the previous version of the Skaven book or the Storm of Chaos lists etc. which aren't generally allowed in stores. If the DOW rules were still on the GW site you'd have a point ;)

If GW's business model is to sell miniatures, then it really shouldn't matter which Skaven book you're using in-store as long as you're using GW Skaven miniatures. And if the SoC list is using miniatures that are still for sale, the same would apply.

Would you also argue that GW should ban the in-store use of metal miniatures that are now Finecast? Those would, after all, be impossible to purchase from GW, whereas the Marksmen of Miragliano are still up on the online store.

If DOW rules were on the site, you'd be able to get a PDF and buy miniatures from GW's online store. They aren't. So you have to be given a copy of the PDF (which anyone playing that rules set in-store should be able to do do begin with), and then go buy miniatures from GW's online store. GW makes exactly the same amount of money either way, unless they were to charge for the PDF.

What's more, almost every GW-based DoW army I've seen makes extensive use of Empire kits. Clearly we wouldn't want to encourage people with no interest in an Empire army to buy those, either.

yabbadabba
13-10-2011, 15:51
I go in to a store. I plop some Ricco's Republican Guard down on the table. Someone else likes the minis, asks where to get them. They are sent to the online store, where they potentially buy stock that's been sitting there for years. GW makes money. Everybody wins. You bring in some Ricco's republican guard as Empire spearmen. Onlooker likes models and we both direct him to the website.
Everybody wins.

You bring in Ricco's republican guard as Ricco's republican guard. I ask if you have an up to date army book or the latest errat and pdf's from the GW website. You say no but produce an old army book/pdf/fandex with no official updates/pdfs/errata from GW. I tell you you can't play DoW because the army list is no longer supported, like Slayer Armies, Cult of Slaanesh, Lustrian Plague Monk, Southlands Skink armies etc. I offer you the Empire book to design an alternative army to play with. You refuse because you think you should be able to play the army. We end up in a confrontation. Onlooker thinks we are both knobs and doesn't buy the models due to the now attached stigma.

Everyone loses.

DoW models - no problems. DoW rules, no. This is not about dictating the hobby, this is about simple sales. I can't sell an army that doesn't exist. There are no supporting documents for DoW in 8e, therefore I cannot in consciousness sell a DoW army to someone. They can buy one, that's up to them and indeed they are more than welcome to as everyone's hobby is there own; but in a GW store there are defined set parameters of what can and can't be sold, used etc etc.

Gwyddyon
13-10-2011, 16:26
You bring in some Ricco's republican guard as Empire spearmen. Onlooker likes models and we both direct him to the website.
Everybody wins.

You bring in Ricco's republican guard as Ricco's republican guard. I ask if you have an up to date army book or the latest errat and pdf's from the GW website. You say no but produce an old army book/pdf/fandex with no official updates/pdfs/errata from GW. I tell you you can't play DoW because the army list is no longer supported, like Slayer Armies, Cult of Slaanesh, Lustrian Plague Monk, Southlands Skink armies etc. I offer you the Empire book to design an alternative army to play with. You refuse because you think you should be able to play the army. We end up in a confrontation. Onlooker thinks we are both knobs and doesn't buy the models due to the now attached stigma.

Everyone loses.

Or I simply decline to play you, and only one of us ends up looking like an uptight "knob"...


DoW models - no problems. DoW rules, no. This is not about dictating the hobby, this is about simple sales. I can't sell an army that doesn't exist. There are no supporting documents for DoW in 8e, therefore I cannot in consciousness sell a DoW army to someone. They can buy one, that's up to them and indeed they are more than welcome to as everyone's hobby is there own; but in a GW store there are defined set parameters of what can and can't be sold, used etc etc.

One of these things is not like the other. It's not about dictating the hobby, but they shouldn't be encouraged to play an army that appeals to them because you wouldn't play with or against it?

You really need to take a look at your own signature once in a while. And please, don't pull the "but it's a GW store" crap. If it sells the miniatures it sells the miniatures, whether YOU would want to play an errata-less PDF list or not. As it stands GW is doing nothing to move merchandise that they've sunk money and space into. What you're suggesting makes no business sense.

yabbadabba
13-10-2011, 16:38
Or I simply decline to play you, and only one of us ends up looking like an uptight "knob"... Remember in the store the staff member is seen as a figure of authority, laugh all you want. You can refuse to play, nicely, in which case we have a laugh and discuss how DoW could work in 8e or you walk off in a huff. Your choice.

One of these things is not like the other.That's right. I can't dictate the hobby to you because you hobby is your own. Where that hobby interacts with a GW store however is where boundaries have to be established. I can dictate what activity goes on in my store. I can control and define what goes on in a private space which is what a GW store is. I have a company line I have to follow with some leeway involved. If you are an adult you are entitled to buy what you want, should I deem you are allowed to shop, subject to legality, however morally or commercially I may advise you differently; if you were a child I can have both a moral and a legal obligation to question or refuse any sale I want and request your parents come in. Things might be different elsewhere in the world but I haven't found or experienced many examples.

Again the issue is not models but rules, in this particular case only the most unthinking store would not let you use your models as a counts as if it is reasonable. Also it is one which in this circumstance the staff member is right until over ruled by management.

Gwyddyon
13-10-2011, 16:48
Yes because remember in the store the staff member is seen as a figure of authority, laugh all you want. You can refuse to play, nicely, in which case we have a laugh and discuss how DoW could work in 8e or you walk off in a huff. Your choice.

You're right - if I leave in a huff. Why are you continuing to make this assumption? I can say, "I'd rather not play Empire, I'll look for another opponent, thanks" without "walking off in a huff".


That's right. I can't dictate the hobby to you because you hobby is your own. Where that hobby interacts with a GW store however is where boundaries have to be established. I can dictate what activity goes on in my store. I can control and define what goes on in a private space which is what a GW store is. I have a company line I have to follow with some leeway involved. If you are an adult you are entitled to buy what you want, should I deem you are allowed to shop, subject to legality, however morally or commercially I may advise you differently; if you were a child I can have both a moral and a legal obligation to question or refuse any sale I want and request your parents come in. Things might be different elsewhere in the world but I haven't found or experienced many examples.

Again the issue is not models but rules, in this particular case only the most unthinking store would not let you use your models as a counts as if it is reasonable. Also it is one which in this circumstance the staff member is right until over ruled by management.

:rolleyes:

You asked why allowing DoW would be in the store's interest. I pointed out that you yourself answered that question - to move GW's stock of DoW minis. Clearly you are correct about GW policy regarding stores and DoW. But that wasn't your question, and that's not what I was responding to. The GW policy doesn't make sense. You can defend it as being the current policy all you want, but it still won't make sense. You're simply moving the goalposts that you yourself errected in order to make your employer's idiotic decision seem reasonable through an axiomatic argument that "DoW shouldn't be in stores because current policy is that DoW shouldn't be in stores".

It's been fun. Once more I'm reminded of why I have an ignore list...

yabbadabba
13-10-2011, 17:04
It's been fun. Once more I'm reminded of why I have an ignore list... Thank you. I could return the compliment or resolve the misunderstanding. Both seem equally unproductive now.

Back to reality. @popisdead. GW sells a lot of stuff they can't sell instore, can't use instore and at times can't even directly promote instore. The unfortunate thing about DoW is that unless GW update the army lists then they consider it unsupported and therefore not compatible in 8e. I have had this conversation with GW before, and before 8e on other lists.

The stores are a weird environment because depending on who you get and where there are a variety of options that might greet you, despite company policy being set. So one week in one store on a games night for vets you can use your DoW, in another on a different day you can't get them out of the case without an Empire army list, or even at all. SGs are similar in this regard.

Stupid, I know. It was always one of the harder things to manage, getting store managers create a community rather than a customer base. Anyway, I digress. GW policy is always all over the place and rarely enforced in any great consistency. In fact I think that the current rumour policy is an echo of this.

For the OP, you won't find many issues with using DoW in most places other than GW. If you are attending one of their events/locations I'd check ahead of time.