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StraightSilver
05-10-2011, 21:14
In response to some comments that have been directed at myself on various forums I thought I would start this topic.

If this is the wrong place please move it elsewhere.

Essentially I just wanted to clear up a few misconceptions, but also try to guage opinion on the point of rumour threads relating to GW products, policies etc.

I would consider myself to be an avid gamer, what some people might consider obsessive.

I am fortunate enough to have been in the GW hobby for over 25 years, and in that time have met some great friends and made some very useful contacts.

I worked for GW in the late 80s / early 90s and in that time made some friends that I am still in contact with.

I visit Nottingham 3-4 times a year and am lucky enough to have friends who have worked directly for GW at Nottingham HQ, paint for 'Eavy Metal or who do freelance work for the company now.

So I would consider myself to be fairly well connected, but certainly don't consider myself to be any better connected than others on the internet, or believe that my opinion is any more valid than any body else's.

However I also have a job that allows me to spend possibly too much time on the internet which may be why sometimes I post on threads without considering the ongoing consequences.

I recently met up with an old colleague for lunch and over a quick pint had a great chat about some possible issues affecting GW right now.

I thought the community would be interested in the salient points of that meeting, but at no point did I say that my remarks should be taken as fact.

I woulldn't normally post random rumours from GW retail staffers (the infamous redshirts) but as this wasn't the case thought the points were worth posting.

Of course they were the opinion of one possibly disgruntled member of GW and so may be no more valid than the opinions of any other staff member or 40K fan, however it seemed interesting and worth mentioning.

The problem is because of GW policy whenever this sort of thing happens it is prudent to be a little circumspect in case somebody loses their job, and so anything posted comes across as wild speculation or hearsay, which of course it may well be.

However isn't that sort of the point of a rumours section on any forum?

You hear a rumour, put it out there and discuss its merits or flaws?

I do appreciate that sometimes things can be lost in translation, and that if every silly rumour or speculation was posted the internet would implode, but is one person's opinion really any more valid than any other?

Should we just not post something we have heard unless we can provide unequivical evidence of its veracity?

With GW's current news blackout, plus their policy of reprimanding staff for speaking out of turn this would be almost impossible.

Also the other thing that has happened with my comments was that other members on other forums have used them to start other threads, even posting them as an article on the front page of BOLS.

All this has resulted in is personal attacks against myself which I find a little hurtful, or maybe I am just being over sensitive?

As a result of all this I am considering simply not posting any info I receive for fear of ridicule, and jacking in my forum accounts so I can concentrate on painting my man barbies. :)

So the point of this thread is when should one post on a rumours thread? And why do people read a rumour and assume the poster is stating it as a fact?

Should News and Rumours be kept seperate?

ForgottenLore
05-10-2011, 22:19
Hi StraightSilver,

I read the post on DakkaDakka that BoLS linked to. I thought you did a good job of presenting the information you had and making it clear where it came from and why you weren't more precise. Haven't read the whole thread yet because, well, it is big, so I don't know what sort of stuff people were saying to you, but I thought it was crystal clear that you were passing on a rumor and nothing more.

In fact, I thought your whole post was pretty much a model of what a rumor post should be, a fair amount of information along with an indication of the level of reliability of the source, with a minimum of bias. I appreciated it.

Sythica
05-10-2011, 22:30
Same here. A rumour is not news. I've wished for a while that they would seperate the forums into two. Yes, speculation is not rumour, but too many people get all soup-nazi about rumours.

Keep up the good work. I'm definitely using that "man-barbies" line in the future!

EmperorNorton
05-10-2011, 22:34
Hi StraightSilver,

I read the post on DakkaDakka that BoLS linked to. I thought you did a good job of presenting the information you had and making it clear where it came from and why you weren't more precise. Haven't read the whole thread yet because, well, it is big, so I don't know what sort of stuff people were saying to you, but I thought it was crystal clear that you were passing on a rumor and nothing more.

In fact, I thought your whole post was pretty much a model of what a rumor post should be, a fair amount of information along with an indication of the level of reliability of the source, with a minimum of bias. I appreciated it.

Can we get a link here?

plantagenet
05-10-2011, 22:56
I personally would rather hear the rumour hence I come to sites like this. You will always get extremes replying to your rumour those who think you are making things up to those who take every word you say as gospel. The majority though read and assimilate and make up there own minds and the debate that forms is surely the interesting side and reason we all seek rumours. Ultimately we like our hobby and our curious about what is happening what may happen and what is affecting it.

I must admit I enjoyed reading The latest rumour you posted. I took it as just that a rumour

May people continue to have the courage to post them as it would be very dull on this forum without them

Link to rumour
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?p=159991#post159991

Voss
05-10-2011, 23:01
However isn't that sort of the point of a rumours section on any forum?

You hear a rumour, put it out there and discuss its merits or flaws?
That is indeed the point of rumour discussion.


I do appreciate that sometimes things can be lost in translation, and that if every silly rumour or speculation was posted the internet would implode, but is one person's opinion really any more valid than any other?
Honestly, yes. This definitely isn't directed at you, but in general there is a difference between the opinion of a new person with the screen-name 'BobtheTroll' and people who have been posting for years. Thats an extreme case, of course, but you do get a feel for the quality of a poster through their posts, and that should impact how much their opinion is worth.



Should we just not post something we have heard unless we can provide unequivical evidence of its veracity?
That pretty much means no discussion at all until an official announcement. Not much point.


Also the other thing that has happened with my comments was that other members on other forums have used them to start other threads, even posting them as an article on the front page of BOLS.
Saw that this morning, it was interesting to hear, though I felt that BOLS was blowing it out of proportion.


All this has resulted in is personal attacks against myself which I find a little hurtful, or maybe I am just being over sensitive?

As a result of all this I am considering simply not posting any info I receive for fear of ridicule, and jacking in my forum accounts so I can concentrate on painting my man barbies. :)
If you decide posting tidbits isn't rewarding for you, then its isn't. Can't really comment on the attacks, as I haven't really seen them, and the line is different for different people.



So the point of this thread is when should one post on a rumours thread?
When one feels they have something useful to say, I think.


And why do people read a rumour and assume the poster is stating it as a fact?
Nature of the human animal, I'm afraid. Some take things more seriously than they should, others don't read things completely, others just... react. Gossip and rumour have a long history as weapons as well as news, and the way people react to them can be defensive or unpredictable.


Should News and Rumours be kept seperate?
I don't really think so. News is so rare that there really isn't much to discuss, and at least half of those discussions are just as appropriate to 'general' anyway. A news forum would just pretty empty: X came out, followed by several replies of 'cool' (and 'why didn't they do Y instead?'), where the general thread would be How is X, Tactics for X, and so on.

Really, without rumours, I wouldn't bother to visit any forum. Its sometimes amusing to 'shoot the breeze' in general topics, but without rumour discussion, this site and others like it lose their point.

shelfunit.
06-10-2011, 08:17
The linked post seems to be just another whine fest about CHS and how they are all evil etc, etc.

librerian_samae
06-10-2011, 09:26
Oh, I think there's always a place/time for posting rumours, no mater how ephemeral.

Also I for one am glad to hear whatever it is people have to say right from 'some black shirt told me' to 'I heard this over a pint and have to keep it vague' right up to 'take a look at these pics I managed to snag'.

In a slightly related note I also try to live by the maxim my mother taught me (yes even when posting on the net! :p )
"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"

p.s.
a big thanks to all those kind (some could also say thick skinned) enough to post all these wonderful rumour tit bits :D

CrazyChib
06-10-2011, 10:44
I believe the majority of the community enjoy reading any rumours, and take them as just that - just rumours - So keep it up!

As for the minority that feel the need to attack any posts - As others have said, a thick skin is required. They have no idea who you are or what you do, so I would just laugh it off.

Foolish Mortal
06-10-2011, 10:47
I would just like to chip in my thanks to you StraightSilver, and all the others who post rumours on this and other sites. Without people like you forums would be much duller places.

Having read some of the thread in question, I agree that you presented the information in a good way, stated clearly that it was rumoured - not fact, and that the sources you got it from were reliable, but that you obviously didn't want to get them fired by splashing their names all over the internet. I don't see the problem here.

Maybe some people just need to 'get a life' or something, but ripping into someone for posting a rumour on a forum with 'rumour' it it's name is just plain dumb. You may not agree with that person, you may have heard a different story, but if you do disagree, do it calmly & productively - you won't come across as a jerk that way.

Tayrod
06-10-2011, 11:05
Dear SS (yeah, that came out wrong). I've just finished reading the quote of your post over at BOLS, and I must say it was very informative and well-thought-out. You sir, are a shining beacon of light on the rumor forum!

To get back on topic, I think you've been very clear about "posting rumors based on one source", and people who takes it at face value, have only themselves to blame. Keep up the good work!

eldargal
06-10-2011, 12:14
There was nothing wrong with the way StraightSilver presented his case, and to be honest I didn't see anyone attacking him and I'm sorry he felt they were. I personally disagree strongly with the rumour he put forward for a number of reasons, but I will only ever have the utmost respect for someone who had a cigarette break with Jes Goodwin.:)

6mmhero
06-10-2011, 18:18
I thought that was a well written post. It stated that the source worked for GW so it is obvious that there is a bias against CHS. However I find myself in agreement with everything in the post.

Time will tell regarding the releases being changed etc. Ogres are a perfect example of how I think the releases will be from now on.

Keep posting SS :-)

blongbling
07-10-2011, 09:05
I have two comments to make, firstly I am a little shocked that you would post information that you are told over a beer for the world to see, I find that to be a betrayal of trust quite frankly, and secondly depending on the position of your source most of what you have said could well be poppycock

Hena
07-10-2011, 10:21
I think it should be emphasised that the posting is rumour and not fact. It was written there, but in long post making the emphasis might be a good idea.

StraightSilver
07-10-2011, 11:19
@ BlongBling: I completely agree with you, I wish now that I hadn't posted. In my defence though the source of the rumour didn't mind me posting as long as I din't make direct reference to him / her. However I made the mistake of posting something on a thread in another forum, which was then copied and pasted out of context into its own threads on other forums.

It was probably very naiive of me to think that wouldn't happen, and in hindsight I won't make that mistake again.

The reason I posted it was as a counter argument in a thread that had become very anti-GW, and I wanted to reset the balance by providing a counter argument that the lawsuit has further reaching consequences.

Taken out of context however it looks like I was just bashing CH and trying to stir up trouble, which wasn't my intention, but I can accept that my posts weren't fair as they weren't neutral.

The whole thing has taught me a lot, which was the reason for this thread.

Not to guage opinions of me or my post, but how rumours might be better circulated, and when they are appropriate.

From now on I will put "RUMOUR:" in bold before I post so that it is obvious it's just that. I can see how easily it was lost in my posts on this occasion.

But there is quite rightly the issue of trust. Is it ok to post something you have heard? On this occasion as I say I think it was ok as I had permission, although I didn't intend it to become such a huge topic and hope now haven't stepped over the mark.

6mmhero
07-10-2011, 11:34
I have two comments to make, firstly I am a little shocked that you would post information that you are told over a beer for the world to see, I find that to be a betrayal of trust quite frankly, and secondly depending on the position of your source most of what you have said could well be poppycock

I hadn't thought of it that way and it is also a good point to make.

blongbling
10-10-2011, 08:45
@Straightsilver having had my own official words misquoted on various forums before when people have copied an pasted I also learnt that lesson the hard way

lijah_cuu
10-10-2011, 10:11
Having been in a simillar situation as this before and seeing the response that Straightsilver has received from his post - I've decided to never post any rumours or news again.
The small minded ignorant trolling you get from idiots just isn't worth it. I'll keep the info I have to myself and my friends...

I've always viewed posting N&R as a little 'treat' for everyone, something to wet the appetite for whats coming up and something for us to get excited about (or have a moan about!) but having people calling you a liar and send threatening and abusive pm's, as in this case, has taken away any reason to waste my time doing so.

The main reason that Straightsilver hasn't been able to mention his contacts name is that his job would be at risk if he did - (maybe if everyone on Warseer chipped in and paid his wages for the next couple of years he might be ok with it!) and from the information given its fairly obvious he's not on the retail side.Having worked in retail for 20 odd years I can tell you that we are always the last to know!!
Would be people be happier if he did? Would a public outing of this person make the information more acceptable?

Obviously , internet bravado and just plain rudeness and stupidity can come into play when posting on forums but the vitriol involved is just completley unacceptable. If someone has taken the time to post a rumour and spent the extra amount of time to break it down and explain the situation involved, as in this case, maybe the person responding to that rumour should also have the courtesy to take the time and respond in an equal manner.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
10-10-2011, 11:08
I have two comments to make, firstly I am a little shocked that you would post information that you are told over a beer for the world to see, I find that to be a betrayal of trust quite frankly, and secondly depending on the position of your source most of what you have said could well be poppycock

Except that GW staffers aren't meant to talk to non staffers about what's going on inside the company. So that's a breach of trust before anyone gets round to reposting.

All staff know this. So when they share they're doing it with the knowledge that they shouldn't be.

Nuada
10-10-2011, 11:15
With GW's current news blackout.
I've noticed people have been saying it's GW that have changed their news/rumours policies.
GW haven't changed their policy about not letting the general public see images or have information about this product. Previous products have had their imagery or information about them stolen. Images/information you've seen/read haven't been released by them.

Also, i agree with blongbling. If your friend told you in confidence you shouldn't post it on the net. I hardly ever post on rumous, just not worth it.

Korraz
10-10-2011, 12:04
They did change their policies.
White Dwarfs and Blackboxes now arrive much later, no previews, no sneak peeks, preorders only a way before release.

lijah_cuu
10-10-2011, 12:17
But by the looks of it this information was passed on for it to be posted so there is no issue of a breach of confidence as long as no information was given to who they were...

FabricatorGeneralMike
10-10-2011, 14:35
They did change their policies.
White Dwarfs and Blackboxes now arrive much later, no previews, no sneak peeks, preorders only a way before release.



There are no more black boxes.

Voss
10-10-2011, 15:50
I've noticed people have been saying it's GW that have changed their news/rumours policies.
GW haven't changed their policy about not letting the general public see images or have information about this product. Previous products have had their imagery or information about them stolen. Images/information you've seen/read haven't been released by them.

As others have pointed out... they did change their policy. Last year we had 'Incoming' emails ~8 weeks an advance for pretty much everything. That stopped with GK. About 4 weeks out from release they posted actual previews. They sent out black boxes. Now its down to about 1-2 weeks from preorder to release date, with no boxes.

Thats a pretty big change, and its all internal to GW

Korraz
10-10-2011, 20:20
There are no more black boxes.

Yeah, I know, I'm sorry.. The name was just stuck in my head for "The stuff the store uses."

ashc
10-10-2011, 22:09
The most we seem to get is *bang* Advance Orders are up! these days.

weeble1000
10-10-2011, 22:47
StraightSilver,

You were posting a rumor that related to a sensitive topic to some folks in the wargaming community and one that is rife with discussion and speculation. Any rumor in that context risks being overblown, and it is certainly going to be heavily discussed, including its veracity. As you were the source of the rumor, it is natural that some speculation about the veracity of the rumor would involve you personally.

I don't think any of this means that you should stop posting rumors, but that's a decision that you have to make. If you post a rumor, there's going to be fallout in proportion to the sensitivity of the topic, and you're probably going to catch a portion of it.

I think what happened with the recent rumor was unfortunate, but I think it is probably par for the course. I wouldn't attack you personally, but I also can't control anyone on the internet except for myself. I'd like to keep hearing what you have to say, and I think you've got some interesting opinions, although we disagree on many points regarding the aforementioned topic.

If providing rumors is something you're comfortable with, I think you should continue. If not, then there's nothing wrong with pulling back and I don't think any reasonable person could hold it against you.

Nuada
10-10-2011, 23:58
As others have pointed out... they did change their policy. Last year we had 'Incoming' emails ~8 weeks an advance for pretty much everything. That stopped with GK. About 4 weeks out from release they posted actual previews. They sent out black boxes. Now its down to about 1-2 weeks from preorder to release date, with no boxes.

Thats a pretty big change, and its all internal to GW

oh ok, i thought it was the same and the difference was leaks had stopped. (never heard of black boxes)
Ah well, up to them. They seem to release info about 15-18 days before, which is the same as most advertising nowadays.

Voss
12-10-2011, 18:28
oh ok, i thought it was the same and the difference was leaks had stopped. (never heard of black boxes)
Ah well, up to them. They seem to release info about 15-18 days before, which is the same as most advertising nowadays.

I can't think of a single industry where a mere 2.5 weeks of advertising is standard. Not cars, not books, not computer games, not other table top games.

BFalcon
12-10-2011, 21:57
Voss: agreed... Mongoose/ADB have involved their customer base in their joint A Call To Arms: Star Fleet game models, due for release later this year and have even released (over a month in advance) some stats and a brief description of the rules system. They announced it ages beforehand. As a result, there's practically fever pitch over there among those who are interested in the game and you can imagine that sales day will see pretty rapid sales. Contrast that, with their usually much lower sales than GW, and I think you'll find that GW *could* have sold far more sets if they'd thought to announce it over 1 pay packet in advance.

To the OP, given your credentials and given your obvious passion to GW products, I'd have no problem seeing anything you've got to say... even if others do.

Nuada
12-10-2011, 22:05
I can't think of a single industry where a mere 2.5 weeks of advertising is standard. Not cars, not books, not computer games, not other table top games.

Depends on the product really. For example a big film like harry potter will be advertised way in advance, but i remember conan was advertised about 2-3 weeks before release. Same as some tv programmes, BBC's merlin was advertised 2-3 weeks before it came on tele.
But anyway... we're going way off topic, nothing to do with OP

Easy E
17-10-2011, 21:15
All staff know this. So when they share they're doing it with the knowledge that they shouldn't be.

Yes, and everyone knows you MUST do what your corporate overlords tell you or face "terrible consequences"! :eek:;):D

Rumors are rumors and they will be overblown. Thanks for posting them to keep the rest of our lives interesting.

zoggin-eck
18-10-2011, 11:58
StraightSilver, spacing every sentence makes my eyes bleed.



As a result of all this I am considering simply not posting any info I receive for fear of ridicule, and jacking in my forum accounts so I can concentrate on painting my man barbies. :)


Wouldn't blame you, seeing the carry on. Post some pics, someone involved in the hobby so long is bound to have some cool models :D