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View Full Version : Questions after yesterday's battle (1): Lizardmen vs Skaven



SteelTitan
06-10-2011, 06:22
Hey guys,

Played another game yesterday; Lizardmen vs Skaven.
Here are a couple of things that came up:


1. How does the Grey Seer's spell selection work? Does he:


a) say which lore he chooses for his first die, rolls the die. Then decides which lore to use for his second die, etc. or;


b) say that he wants to use two out of his four dice to the 'plague lore' and two to the other one and THEN rolles?


2. Is a Skink Chief on a Terradon allowed to make a Vanguard move? [Units of Terradon riders are fast cavalry. The book doesn't have a seperate entry on terradons so it's not clear where the special rules for this unit come from; from the combination of skink riders+terradon or from the terradon alone.]


a) If he is fielded without the unit?


b) If he is fielded with the unit? Does the unit still vanguard or does the unit loses vanguard?


3. In the picture below, how does CC work?

The saurus charged and the champion declared a challenge against the Skaven BSB, which is the only model in B2B with the Saurus. The saurus was killed before he got a chance to strike.

How would this have worked in the first round with the challenge going on, and in the second with the challenge being over?

Which models from the LM side and which models from the Skaven side would get to attack?


Thank you!

narrativium
06-10-2011, 11:30
Not sure about 1 and 2.

3: Regardless of which model in a challenge dies and at what initiative step, the challenge endures until combat resolution is counted, and if it continues, it resumes again at the beginning of the next close combat phase.

In your situation, the skaven BSB is the only Skaven model which can attack and be attacked, and it's in a challenge where only the Saurus champion can attack it, so no-one else gets to attack this time. Next turn, since no-one else in the Saurus unit can be involved in a challenge, the Lizardmen attack with two Saurus from the front row (all those in base contact with the BSB) and any supporting attacks from directly behind those two. Again, only the Skaven BSB can attack/be attacked unless the Skaven reformed between rounds.

SteelTitan
06-10-2011, 11:50
I'm hoping someone else can help me out with the first two questions, but regarding the third:

Can't you also direct your attacks against the bell/seer with the saurus that are 'above' (in the picture) the BSB?

DeathlessDraich
06-10-2011, 11:52
2) The character negates the unit's Vanguard ability when he joins it.

1) The GS needs to announce which lore before rolling. This could mean for each roll or for all the rolls. (Roll a dice if you can't agree!)
I wouldn't quibble about a very small advantage and allow maximum flexibility to my Skaven opponent. - so I would accept both methods plus methods involving switching lores between dice rolls

narrativium
06-10-2011, 11:54
I'm hoping someone else can help me out with the first two questions, but regarding the third:

Can't you also direct your attacks against the bell/seer with the saurus that are 'above' (in the picture) the BSB?
No. There's a BSB and several skaven models in the way, and the Lizardmen care more about their ranked formation than about moving closer with their spears.

Archis
06-10-2011, 12:10
You can attack across the gap, same as when you rear charge and the charged unit has just one model in the back rank. I'm rebelling so song have my book on me, but there is a picture of this (i think in the bottom right corner of a page.)

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

brother_maynard
06-10-2011, 12:14
No. There's a BSB and several skaven models in the way, and the Lizardmen care more about their ranked formation than about moving closer with their spears.

p. 49 of the BRB says otherwise, you are allowed to attack across gaps caused by incomplete ranks. as for question #2, the skink character would get a vanguard as a fast cav mount confers the fast cav rule onto the charater. the see fast cav rules, a herald of slaanesh on a steed of slaanesh works the same way. and its been said already, but the grey seer can roll on both charts but must tell you what dice he's rolling on which lore before the actual roll.

SteelTitan
06-10-2011, 12:37
You can attack across the gap, same as when you rear charge and the charged unit has just one model in the back rank.

Exactly, that was the situation I was thinking about too.



@ Terradon Chief: Where is it stated that a terradon is a fast cav mount?

There is no entry on 'only' a terradon. The unit 'terradon riders' have the fast cav rule, but i haven't been able to find anything in the book that says a chief on a terradon gets the same benefit.

Also I'm pretty sure that the rules say that if a character joins a unit of fast cav without that rule, the units loses the bonuses such as vanguard.


@ Grey Seer: There is a difference between having to announce how many dice you will use for each lore beforehand and deciding on a roll-to-roll basis.

With the latter, the Skaven player can just keep rolling on one lore until he gets what he wants and then switch. The former means you roll the declared dice at the same time and if you don't get the spells you want, bad luck cause you already declared your remaining dice to the other lore.

warplock
06-10-2011, 12:45
@ Grey Seer: There is a difference between having to announce how many dice you will use for each lore beforehand and deciding on a roll-to-roll basis.

With the latter, the Skaven player can just keep rolling on one lore until he gets what he wants and then switch. The former means you roll the declared dice at the same time and if you don't get the spells you want, bad luck cause you already declared your remaining dice to the other lore.

The problem is, it isn't specified which way round he has to do it, so as per DeatlessDraich you'd have to dice-off or just come to an agreement with the opponent.

eron12
06-10-2011, 13:47
I'm not sure about the fighting across the gap. Pg 49 mentions that models from imcomplete ranks are to be moved into base contact. Now I'm not sure from the picture, but it looks like the bell might extend into the first rank, in which case it cannot move over.

Pg. 49 further says that when a unit is attacked in the rear or both flanks, that it may be impossible to move the incomplete ranks into BSB and models can fight across the gap. Now I think this would apply to the situation at hand, but the rule book says, "in this specific situation only," which seems to be refering to engaged from the rear or both flanks.

Now I'm more confused than when I started looking at the rule.

SteelTitan
06-10-2011, 14:44
Haha, yeah, that tends to happen to me too.

To clarify things for you; yes the bell was also in the first rank (as it is obliged to do per his rules). Therefore, the bell cannot move over.

I just read that paragraph on p.49 and it appears to be a case of RAW vs RAI. They mention the specific situation of being engaged in the rear or both flanks and the resulting inability to move models over.

I'd say that intended was not to have these weird situations (like in my picture) that most of the unit just stands there, doing nothing. To clarify they used this common scenario. But should this exclude using the same intention in other similarly weird situations?

eron12
06-10-2011, 16:58
Haha, yeah, that tends to happen to me too.

To clarify things for you; yes the bell was also in the first rank (as it is obliged to do per his rules). Therefore, the bell cannot move over.

I just read that paragraph on p.49 and it appears to be a case of RAW vs RAI. They mention the specific situation of being engaged in the rear or both flanks and the resulting inability to move models over.

I agree that it is likely a RAW vs. RAI issue as well.


I'd say that intended was not to have these weird situations (like in my picture) that most of the unit just stands there, doing nothing. To clarify they used this common scenario. But should this exclude using the same intention in other similarly weird situations?

I would say no, if it wasn't for the use of the word specific. If it said "general" sitations, or even just situations, that would be one thing, but using "specific" gives me pause.

tarrym
07-10-2011, 15:07
Personally I've always declared how many spells I will take from each lore, and then rolled 2 sets of dice accordingly. Feels a little suspect if I was to try rolling each spell individually.

I've opened up another thread for this as I had other queries on how Grey Seer/Vermin Lord's are supposed to select spells: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5829033

H33D
08-10-2011, 01:11
I thought units of flying cavalry count as fast cavalry and skirmishers? So chief on terradon + terradon riders = fast cavalry unit that can vanguard. Am I wrong? (No BRB here or I would check)

SteelTitan
08-10-2011, 07:05
Terradon riders are not officially flying cavarly, that rule was removed in the FAQ and replaced with fast cavalry and fly :shifty: Which practically is, exactly the same...

Because of the fast cav rule, they can still vanguard. No problems there. The unit of terradon riders is not the issue.


The problem is with the skink chief ON a terradon. The skink chief is infantry, the terradon a monstrous beast. Being a monstrous beast only gives the chief swiftstride (and stomp).

There is no seperate entry on terradons as a mount, only for terradon riders (the unit). Because of this, you don't know which rules are 'unit specific' and 'mount specific'.

As far as I know, there is no way of finding out whether a skink chief on a terradon has the fast cavalry special rule (regardless of being fielded IN a unit of terradon riders or not).

Yrrdead
08-10-2011, 08:27
Terradon riders are not officially flying cavarly, that rule was removed in the FAQ and replaced with fast cavalry and fly :shifty: Which practically is, exactly the same...

Because of the fast cav rule, they can still vanguard. No problems there. The unit of terradon riders is not the issue.


The problem is with the skink chief ON a terradon. The skink chief is infantry, the terradon a monstrous beast. Being a monstrous beast only gives the chief swiftstride (and stomp).

There is no seperate entry on terradons as a mount, only for terradon riders (the unit). Because of this, you don't know which rules are 'unit specific' and 'mount specific'.

As far as I know, there is no way of finding out whether a skink chief on a terradon has the fast cavalry special rule (regardless of being fielded IN a unit of terradon riders or not).

There is indeed a separate entry, like most books , covering mounts and special rules. Lizardman AB pg 91. Which references the special rules on pg 52. Which have been changed as already mentioned in the FAQ amendments.

Seems like a decent way to show that a skink chief on a terradon has the fast cavalry special rule.

SteelTitan
08-10-2011, 08:34
omg, i went through the book five times and never saw that table :( sorry guys.