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Tarliyn
10-10-2011, 05:51
Why are the High Elf elite units absent from warmaster? Seems odd


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AndrewGPaul
10-10-2011, 09:07
Why are you singling out High Elves? :)

It's basically because at the scale of Warmaster, there's not a great deal of difference in overall battlefield effectiveness. You've basically got melee infantry, missile infantry, shock cavalry and light cavalry. Anything more is nitpicking. :) At the time Warmaster was published, the elite units generally only had different equipment and slightly higher stats, not a page of special rules each.

At one point, you could buy models for Phoenix Guard, Dragon Princes and possibly Sword Masters, but they just counted as Spearmen, Silver Helms and Spearmen, respectively.

Geep
10-10-2011, 13:09
It's the same for almost every army. I don't think Empire have any elite units, and the elite units which do appear in other armies usually have some kind of radical differences to the common troops (Eg. Trollslayers, Witch Elves, mounted Orcs).

As AndrewGPaul says, the reason is that Warmaster is supposed to be more abstract- it's all about manouvering and overall battlefield command, not about record keeping a hundred miniscule differences over many troop types. In a game of Warmaster's scale, tracking every kind of special unit and having them with their own rules would really make book keeping too annoying.

Tarliyn
10-10-2011, 13:54
I guess I just noticed High Elves because some of the other armys have atleast some of thiers still. Empire has flagelants, dwarf's got slayers, OnG has black orcs, VC has graveguard, dark elfs have witch elves, skaven have storm vermin, etc. Really looking at the model range it seems that only daemons, high elfs, and undead are left out of the elite infantry club. Also I have just grown used to High Elfs being defined by their elite more so than other armies. It doesn't change the character of empire for them not to have greatswords but High Elfs become just a little bit more generic without their something unique

Sorry for silly questions :)


It's the same for almost every army. I don't think Empire have any elite units, and the elite units which do appear in other armies usually have some kind of radical differences to the common troops (Eg. Trollslayers, Witch Elves, mounted Orcs).


Didnt see that until I posted already. Guess I dont know all the army rules yet so I didn't realize the other guys I listed had that special of rules compared to other infantry.

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AndrewGPaul
10-10-2011, 16:14
The high elves' "something unique" would be the fact that all their infantry are elite, compared to the other armies'. That and the sky-high Leadership ratings of their heroes.

Vos
10-10-2011, 18:47
You can still pick up Swordmasters and Phoenix Guard (and very ocasionally Dragon Princes) models from e bay if you are prepared to pay silly prices. So actually there are plenty of elite options if your opponent is happy for you to field them.

Personally I think the whole army is already pretty good!

Vos

wellspring
11-10-2011, 21:36
You can still pick up Swordmasters and Phoenix Guard (and very ocasionally Dragon Princes) models from e bay if you are prepared to pay silly prices. So actually there are plenty of elite options if your opponent is happy for you to field them.

Personally I think the whole army is already pretty good!

Vos

I have them, dating back to when they were originally sold. Most recently on eBay, each went for just under $100, and dragon princes sold for about $150.

The argument in Warmaster is that these are standard infantry units by Warmaster standards-- they may be more powerful but they're also less numerous. You can use the Battle Honors rules to apply some extra rules to a spearmen unit and call them Phoenix Guard, if you insist.

Witch Elves and Trollslayers both fulfill a very different tactical purpose. They're not just "super infantry". Corsairs and Hammerers (also OOP and crazy expensive in the aftermarket) do NOT have special rules, and you consider them to be Spearmen and Warriors, respectively.

Warmaster isn't about army list selections or individual troop quality. It's about command structure and strategy. So they abstract away most of the details of the individual unit and think about its role in the over all army list.

High Elves have lots of options already-- why bother adding more? There are several very different "optimized" army lists (to the extent you can even do that in Warmaster). Adding different options adds complexity without adding anything to the tactical richness of the game.

Haranin
12-10-2011, 14:43
A couple points....

1. Scale: Warmaster may have smaller models then WFB; but the actual units are much, much larger. Warmaster armies are just that- an army. Each unit is thousands of warriors.

As the scale increases, the differences between units fades; for one reason elite units tackle larger problems with less men.

In warmaster an elite phoenix guard unit would have less elves then a bog standard spearelf unit... resulting in similar performance on the battlefield.

Generals use their troops efficiently. If phoenix guard fight twice as effectively as spearelves, the general will use half the numbers of the guard for the same job.

At a certain scale individual weapons, morale, fighting styles fade.

Warhammer is tactical in scale. Warmaster is operational. Mighty empires is strategic.

2. Magic Items

Special units scream for magic items. I frequently put the banner of shielding on my ironbreakers. Hammers typically get a magic weapon.

You can make your special units special via the existing magic item rules.

3. HE don't need them. The general opinion of people who play warmaster is that elves are one of the best, if not the best armies. Leadership 10 and knights are just that good. Nothing is free in warmaster. You could pimp the stats of the HE infantry... and you will end up with much more expensive units, fewer of them on the table and a smaller break point.

Most opponents of high elves would cheer with changing the HE to have a smaller breakpoint.

Finally, poke around the web. The specialist forums and warmaster site (nonGW) have the draft rules GW put out for some of the special units.

Agoz
19-10-2011, 04:25
Okay, here's the reason as I figure: The game was created back during 6th edition warhammer, back then high elves didn't have all the special rules they have now, meaning that high elf elites just weren't all that special, slightly higher stats and slightly different weapons, that's about it. They didn't exactly scream "make me a unit!"

Tarliyn
19-10-2011, 05:52
Both the above reasons make since, I just REALLY love swordmasters lol


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azraelezekiel
08-11-2011, 09:53
You can use battle honours (a pdf is out there somewhere ;)) to replicate the rare units.
If you can get your hands on the models :)