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Prince Sairion
11-10-2011, 20:26
I'd like to patch a couple of things up regarding the MoN before I get very excited about several possibilities. The rules state that models attacking MoN models in combat are at -1 WS and models with WS 0 can't attack and are hit automatically. Based on that...

1) If a unit fails a fear test against a unit with MoN, thus taking them down to WS1, does the mark then kick in and take the unit down to WS0, thus rendering it unable to attack/auto-hit for that round of combat?

2) Again in combat, miasma reduces the attacking units WS to 1 (the most it can do) does the same approach apply that the unit would sink to WS 0 again, as although the units may have come into contact before the magic phase (charge etc) the MoN rules state -1WS to combat attacks, so the miasma would take effect, then in combat the MoN would take the final point of WS off the unit?

What are your thoughts - I'm quite liking a level 4 shadow / mark of nurgle unit themed army right now... with a bit of fear and terror to taste.

theunwantedbeing
11-10-2011, 20:32
The mark of nurgle was errata'd. (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1780264a_FAQ_WarriorsofChaos_V1_4.pdf)

Prince Sairion
11-10-2011, 20:37
I only see that models attacking MoN models are at -1 WS, unless I'm going loopy - good chance - so does that mean yay or nay to the above?

theunwantedbeing
11-10-2011, 20:47
oops....well now I look a bit silly :o

1. Technically yes, although your opponent may not agree with this/allow it.
2. See above.

The most fair way to resolve it is to assume that there is a "to a minimum of 1" clause in the mark of nurgle rules, so a model cannot be reduced to ws0 because of it.

Prince Sairion
11-10-2011, 21:02
There's a couple of interesting things like this in 8th edition, the flaming sword of ruin/mindrazor combo for example has been used against me to auto wound before.

I agree that the fair and sporting approach would be exactly as you put it - I still think however that the reality is that this is stupidly over-powered and needs a further errata! The reason this came about for me is the guys on ogres stronghold were talking about yhetees auto-hitting due to a failed fear test and the -1 WS combo, with MoN chaos you can have an entire army of it.

The worst thing about WOC is that you have several untis that cause fear, the doom totem, access to the shrieking blade, mask of eee, nurgle ogres, fear causing character mounts, shadow and death magic etc etc that make this even more broken.

Nasty!

Thank you for your replies, if anyone else would like to chip in please do so - I'd be interested in your views.

hamsterwheel
11-10-2011, 21:26
The rulebook in no way says that models with WS0 cannot attack. It does say that they can't defend themselves and are hit automatically.

TMATK
11-10-2011, 21:38
If you search "mark of nurgle fear" you'll see this issue has come up a lot since 8th was released.

The way we play it: Unit is -1 WS when attacking(targeting), but not when being attacked. 6's always hit even if the attacker has WS0, and attacks made against the unit are at WS1.

AMWOOD co
12-10-2011, 02:04
The main reason it needs an errata is that you get a paradox if you take it to mean that WS 0 can't attack. Watch:

Model failed fear test and is WS 1
Model allocates attack towards Mark of Nurgle opponent
Model has WS reduced to 1 by Mark of Nurgle to 0
Model cannot attack due to WS 0
Model is no longer attacking Mark of Nurgle opponent and so doesn't suffer -1 WS
Go back to 2 and repeat ad infinitum

I know some people would be mad at me for suggesting this, but GW could clean the issue up by saying that a WS0 model automatically misses an enemy model in combat in addition to being hit automatically. Attacks happen, but nothing is struck. I'm not saying that's how it is, just that it could be a solution.

Yrrdead
12-10-2011, 03:02
Random related bits.

Attack characteristic defines whether a model may attack or not. WS comparisons are used to determine whether those attacks are successful or not.

WS 0 is undefined in regards to attacking (though it defines attacking a model with WS 0) in the ruleset. Essentially this got errata'd to an unknown. Which is awesome.

But realize that when a MoN model is attacking the Mark is not "doing" anything. It is purely defensive in nature. Now what happens in the reverse is undefined.

goodz
12-10-2011, 04:28
i always play you can still attack at WS0 just you get auto hit.

Capt._Jaelinek
12-10-2011, 04:44
This came up in our local gaming group. Zombies have WS1 and enter combat with Nurgle Warriors. WoC autohit zombies, Zombies can't attack back.

p.4 BRB Characteristics of Zero 1st paragraph:

"Some creatures have been given a value of '0' for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that skill."

They then explain how BS0 and A0 get no attacks, so WS0 = can't hit.

Seems pretty clear.

Althwen
12-10-2011, 07:59
I always interpreted the mark of nurgle this way:
You deduce the unit's WS by 1 when it's going to attack the Nurgle unit, but when the Nurgle unit hits the attacker you don't apply the modifier. Because it says: 'Models that target him are at -1 WS' implying that only their attack would suffer from the penalty.

Following this reasoning, you will never autohit a unit, because the -1 WS modifier doesn't apply when the Nurgle unit attacks.

If the above is false, then AMWOOD has summed it up pretty nicely.
Also, striking first at a unit before they've had the chance to actually target a model with the Mark of Nurgle, would mean the modifier will only come into effect AFTER you've hit.

...this is confusing.

Prince Sairion
12-10-2011, 08:27
Very confusing!

To clarify, my assumption that a unit cannot attack if reduced to WS 0 is that ws 0 doesn't exist on the 'to hit' chart and the wording on characteristics reduced to 0. The 6's always hit line does make this an interesting situation again though...

Thank you everyone for your input, I think I shall have to agree with my opponent what the ruling is before each game to avoid arguments/not having a game at all!

MoN used to be such a pleasant choice for WoC compared to Slaanesh (7th ed) and Tzeentch/Khorne (8th), it seems Big Pappa is just as effective nowadays!