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poodles
14-10-2011, 01:13
Hi all!
Just need a little help here. I play against 3 opponents (need to find a club in nottingham). id just like some advice on what units are good for want.

Some opponents history.
We've all been away from GW for a few years. only really played 40k. about six months ago we started up again.

Me: Dark elves and a bit of empire. fair grasp of the rules, abit forgetfull though. wants fun, not bothered about winning. But can get a lil competetive.

player 2: Main army for the moment dwarfs. Learnt almost all rules in two days, REALLY isnt bothered about winning.

Player 3:Ogre Kingdoms. Likes to do his own thing, and wants a good fight like me.

Player 4: Skaven. changes army after his first defeat. the rest of us are certain hes cheating with his points (but wont say anything out of love). Big headed and generally a D**k. Which means i want to obliterate him.

Any hints on 1, how to build a balanced, startin list to cope with all the above. 2, SMASH player 4

poodles
14-10-2011, 01:14
OH and we mainly do 2 v 2

tmarichards
14-10-2011, 01:38
How many pts?

Don Zeko
14-10-2011, 01:39
Read the Dark Elf tactics thread, watch Tmarichard's youtube videos, or read the DE list threads in the army list forum. I am confident that whatever questions you have have been answered in one, or maybe all, of those places.

poodles
14-10-2011, 01:58
normally 1500pts - 2000pts per player.

Grovel
14-10-2011, 06:42
Pendant of Khaeleth on a combat lord with flying mount and the stubborn crown. Supreme sorceress with shadow magic. Two Hydra's. Massive unit of Black Guard (throw mind razor on them for giggles).

Take any combination of the above and they'll be worth their gold against player 4. Against opponent #2 & #3 you might wanna avoid doing so since it's a bit mean... But given what you said about your Skaven friend, it's exactly what you're after.

Xerkics
14-10-2011, 10:09
Massive unit of black guard isn't legal they are capped at 20

Dirty Mac
14-10-2011, 13:48
I have a great 1500pt list that i am happy with.
Granted I am new, and have only fought High Elves with it, but i haven't lost with it yet.
And I just might be fighting dwarfs this Sunday with the same list. let me know if you want it.

poodles
14-10-2011, 23:21
i appreciate all the help guys, but im alwawys ready to listen to more

tmarichards
14-10-2011, 23:28
Pendant of Khaeleth on a combat lord with flying mount and the stubborn crown. Supreme sorceress with shadow magic. Two Hydra's. Massive unit of Black Guard (throw mind razor on them for giggles).

Take any combination of the above and they'll be worth their gold against player 4. Against opponent #2 & #3 you might wanna avoid doing so since it's a bit mean... But given what you said about your Skaven friend, it's exactly what you're after.

I'd actually advise against taking the flying Stubborn Pendant Lord and the double hydra, as they're massive crutches that don't promote good gameplay. Sure they're awesome choices that I've used to ruin hobbies up and down the country, but I think they really hinder improvements in gameplay.

Brotheroracle
15-10-2011, 04:57
Rxbmen are worth their weight in gold.

Dirty Mac
15-10-2011, 05:00
Here you go mate this is a link to my list with a battle report thrown in.

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=69328

Enjoy!!

SoggyRizla
17-10-2011, 18:35
For a new player I'd suggest taking whatever units you fancy to be honest. With the Dark Elf book you can't go far wrong, and it's important to enjoy the game much more than aiming to smash your Skaven opponent. If he's that much of a knob, don't play him!

sulla
18-10-2011, 19:03
Check out Druchii.net. You can find your answers there.

tmarichards
18-10-2011, 20:24
Big problem with Druchii.net is that there are 2-3people on there who post in virtually every thread who have no real game sense or are just downright bad players. For example, the chap who repeatedly says that shades aren't worthwhile, or the guy who has apparently played 60 games and only lost 1.

There is some good stuff on there, but you do need to be wary of some of the advice that gets given out.

Dirty Mac
19-10-2011, 00:34
^I agree with that, that's the reason that i have stopped commenting there too half the time. Shades are one of the best units in the Dark elf book.

sulla
19-10-2011, 14:56
Like any site, you have to judge how much weight you give to each poster.

As for shades being universally one of the best units, it totally depends on who you play in your local group.
For example, in my most common opponents, I typically play WoC with huge units of warriors and marauders (30+), hellcannons and shrine or occasionally 6+trolls. Shooting is mostly a waste of time here and there are no combat targets unless I can mindrazor them, which means I am locked into taking shadow for my mage. Now, I know it's a good lore, but I'd rather not have to build my army around it if possible. They also have ample magic missiles to hit my shades with.

Another common foe is TK. Plenty of smallish shooting targets here, and stuff I can dominate in combat with them too, but also 50 strong skelly archers who are likely to wipe out a unit per turn if they wish.

I'm not totally convinced they will be all that useful vs the new OK either; artillery with more wounds than normal and that can fight a bit.

So it's worth finding out who they fight against or in what level they play. Obviously someone who has only lost a single game is either lying or playing their dad, But you shouldn't get turned off a site just because or a couple of posters and their bullying groupies... that happens everywhere, even here.

Also, I note there are no recent shades tactical discussions over there. It might be time for one of you to start a thread to educate the masses since you are the champions of the sneaky autariii. :)

tmarichards
19-10-2011, 15:24
I've posted it a few times, but I decided it was a lost cause after one of them said he didn't see the point of them. Another brilliant post was that Corsairs aren't a good all-comers unit, but are instead very specialised.

The mind, quite simply, boggles.

sulla
19-10-2011, 15:34
I've posted it a few times, but I decided it was a lost cause after one of them said he didn't see the point of them. Another brilliant post was that Corsairs aren't a good all-comers unit, but are instead very specialised.

The mind, quite simply, boggles.I find pretty much the same attitudes here and WPS. Conventional tactics or rules lawyery stuff but no real innovation. Too many players who say 'x' is crap, rather than "here's the best way to make use of 'x', which is overpriced compared to 'y'."

Still a lot of players thinking in terms of 7th edition too, like the TK players who say their army needs magic to work, when anyone can see the magic they are taking is not worth the investment they are putting into it, or old players who think great weapons aren't worth it because they strike last and aren't willing to take bigger units.

tmarichards
19-10-2011, 16:49
There will always be a difference in opinion, which is certainly not a bad thing. What does annoy me is that a lot of people (as is only natural) draw their experiences from only their own games vs a small, select group of people and armies and not from the wider scene- which is why I'm always keen to point people towards my battle reports, so that the games I draw my experience from are there for all to see instead of just a shadowy W/L/D record.

Re Tomb Kings magic- I was only aware that they had one spell, which was Smiting? :D

popisdead
19-10-2011, 20:50
Big problem with warseer is that there are 2-3 people on there who post in virtually every thread who have no real game sense or are just downright bad players.

Yup :angel:

Druchii.net has a wealth of knowledge and experience to peruse through. I highly recommend visiting the site and spending a fair bit of time reading tactics and army lists so see how you can apply it to your style of play and preferences.

tmarichards
19-10-2011, 22:45
Bless, did you come up with that all by yourself?

Dirty Mac
20-10-2011, 03:33
It might be time for one of you to start a thread to educate the masses since you are the champions of the sneaky autariii. :)

One guy said,
I've always found shades to be a waste of points so I can see why he hasn't got any.
They are very expensive, low leadership skirmishers that can't take a muso or banner.

I listed my reasons for taking shades which were.

They hit on 2's before modifiers are applied. they can be put pretty much anywhere on the board. they have an effective range of 34'' they have the same weapon skill as Black Guard. they can take AHW's and light armour. they have eternal hatred. they have the same leadership as Witch Elves. their shots are Armour piercing, they can march and shoot. they are steadfast in a forest if combat happens in one.they can stand and shoot if need be, and they get to strike first against most opponents, they have the best chance to take out artillery in the early game, they are at -1 to shoot at, a cannon will only kill one at a time, when shades are in a single rank.

It was pretty much ignored, and I basically got told they would be destroyed by cannons and shouldn't be taken.

sulla
20-10-2011, 03:57
I know what you mean, but you aren't posting for 'that guy', you're posting for all the players who are genuinely interested.

Besides, it's no great shame if you are using different units from the masses. Anyone can cut and paste an internet armylist. I'm quite happy when players tell me my executioner horde is crap. I just smile and smash them with the big bladed murderers.

Drago Daemonis
20-10-2011, 15:55
I know what you mean, but you aren't posting for 'that guy', you're posting for all the players who are genuinely interested.

Besides, it's no great shame if you are using different units from the masses. Anyone can cut and paste an internet armylist. I'm quite happy when players tell me my executioner horde is crap. I just smile and smash them with the big bladed murderers.

I'm trying to prove to myself that my horde of 30 Executioners aren't crap. I find they need the 5+ ward to stand a chance. Do you run 40s? I imagine that would be much better, but quite an investment @ 2400. Or Death Hag with ASF banner?

sulla
20-10-2011, 21:07
I'd love to play 40 but I don't want to put too many eggs in one basket so I uisually don't go higher than 35. 30 is the bare minimum.

They need the 5+ ward because they will attract a lot of attention, but that's no huge problem for me because I take double cauldrons at the moment. (only a single lvl4). The idea behind the big exie block is that the shadow mage generally helps out the rest of the army while the exies with a 5++ can generally handle themselves without magical support. The army works pretty well against most hardcore builds although I find they still need a bit of luck like an early misfire vs double hellcannon and megablock WoC. Being able to take 12+ exies off per shot (or 17+ in the first shooting phase if I don't win the first turn rolloff) really wrecks the unit.

They certainly work better than a double BG army which I find is too vulnerable to random deployment and those same high strength templates.

Probably not quite as good as a big block of witches/frenzied corsairs with magic support but I try to stay away from the mindrazor reliance and witches, when I have used them without that shadow support, they have been fairly underwhelming for me, getting roundly thrashed by TK skellies and king (damn flaming banner vs 2++ ward king), ghouls (damn helm and vanhels) WoC marauders (damn cheap MoK and GWs), warriors (duh), trolls (no flaming banner this time and I ended up buffing them to eternity thanks to good regen saves) and Dorvs (damn guns; noone left when I hit their lines).

a18no
21-10-2011, 03:45
i will ry to help a little there, let,s take a quick look on each unit;

Ballista: in 8th, warmachine got a bad life if they need to roll for hit. Still 100pts for something easely beaten by RxB for the same price. But still, this is the only way to get Str4 or 6 shooting on the table, they got the usage for that.

Hydra: Maybe the worst thing to bring in friendly game. Undercosted at all level. A very good model though that i like to play, I stay with 1 at most. Breath weapon, good movement, very tough to crack, I use it more to attract shooting and magic!

Black guard: I've found that the 20 guys cap is a really bad thing in 8th. playing close combat unit in less than 30 is very tough. But still, they are one of the best guy in the the game (if you take them on paper). Use them with falming banner to counter big things with low ini, or to give you a good counter to vampire count crypt guard deathstar. They are a good wayt to bring 2 armor piercing on the table though!

Shades: skirmisher have lost a good part of their beauty. I almost never play them anymore, but for a treat in the deployment zone of the opponent, they are the way to go. A unit to hide a stars assassin to bring down some of the big thing is always welcome.

Cold one: still one of the best cavalry in the game for their cost. Since the rider now have the Str4 too, they can be very nasty. The common combo with Hydra banner is still great. Give the ASF banner, and bring them near your opponent, let him charge you and cry when you throw at him LOTS of str4 attack before he even understand what happened!!

Executionner: Str6, killing blow. A good unit. They absolutly need synergy in your list. Strike last is a very very very bad rule in 8th. Give tehm a ward (from cauldron) or just bring a LOT of them. I use them with the +1 mvt banner. A unit with mvt6 and str6 can make some knight very stressed!

Witches: what can I say?... Probably THE best unit in the game. 10 pts for 3A, re-roll to hit, poison, Ini 6 (the best in the game for any unit), they are a real steal, and probably one of the undersee unit in the book. One thing to remember: never bring them out if you don,t give them the armor piercing banner (from our book). Behing str 3 is their only drawback, but give them armor piercing and you'll see way too many dead body.. On the other side of the table!!!!

Chariot: like any chariot, they are not very strong in 8th. We can bring impact with lot of thing in the army, and for 100pts, their's lot more thing to choose. Still they are one of the thoughest chariot out there, with shooting they are not useless even with no march rule.

RxB: i mut admit that they have let me down in this edition. they were one of my favorite unit back in 7th. But now, for 11pts I prefer other unit like witches and warrior. But I've used in suprising situation the combo with a fire mage giving them flaming sword. They could hit warmachines really hard when throwing lots of arrow and wounding on 5+!

Corsair; I love them, they are good, even if for 10 pts i prefer witches. 3 uses: max attack witg frenzy banner ad lots of them, handbow with frenzy banner for a good stand and shoot unit that still pack 2A each, or a replacement for witches with armor piercing banner and 2hw. I've used the handbow/frenzy banner with great success in the watch tower scenario. Since the handbow can ALWAYS stand and shoot!! One thing that can make them harder than witches: you can bring BSB fully kitted in the unit, you don't have to use the naked one.

Warriors: what can we ask for more than a 7pts unit, with hatred, this beautifull stat line?? Give them +1ld banner couple with a lvl 4 equipped with the so overpowerfull dagger, and you got something really weird. I choose unit of 40, only because I don't have the models for 50!!

Harpies: they lost so much of they versatility... poor them. Still they are a good warmachine hunters with 2A each at only 11pts (with flying!!)

Riders: their WERE a gold unit, now cost too much for my taste. Still usefull for warmachine hunting.

Characters;

Assassin: they die to fast in combat since you can't use them anymore to clear the first rank of the ennemy. But the stars one or the perfect killer (killing blow, rune and the venom for re-roll the 1 to wounds). Always issue challenge with him in big fight though..

Noble/Lord: good guys, too bad I don't use fighter character anymore. We are still one of the last army out there that can bring 1+ armor guys very easely. The combo for the unkillable lord that is use to ground deathstar is good, but be carefull in friendly game. The "chuck norris" one is good (see druchii, don't remember who created this guy though), but follow the same rule as for the lord: be carefull with the pendant, it's great too strong for it's point.

Mages: we can cast with as many dices as we want. So all combo for 1 game spell are easy with us. But I've posted a magic strategy on Druchii about using a lvl 4 dark/dagger, couple with a lvl 2 shadow/furion tome. that list has won me so much game. The dagger is use at his best when played with the security in mind: cast with a lvl 4 any spell in dark magic with only 1 dice, use the dagger only if the spell haven't past. That way your opponent will have to counter 5 spells from that sorceress, then 1 very big from the lvl 2 (habitually mindrazor or the basic spell). the shadow lore is the strongest with a lvl 4 dark, death is good too. But on my side I face high too often to not go out withouth the so usefull basic spell from shadow. Cast it boosted (10+, so easy), and down their ini and WS by 1, that way they hit you on 4+ with no re-roll and you hit on 3+ with re-roll each turn!!

Hag: cauldron. you NEED one in your amy, nothing more to say. Other combo are fun at beast (asf bsb hag in executionner of witches). The only good point for them is that khaine gift are not magic item, so can be use with a magical banner. My favorite combo is the cauldron BSB. Big synergy with a full close combat army like mine.

Hope that help you a lot with the army, as you probably understand, near everything could be played in the dark elf army, it,s where thei beauty is!!

Good luck!

Drago Daemonis
22-10-2011, 01:25
I'd love to play 40 but I don't want to put too many eggs in one basket so I uisually don't go higher than 35. 30 is the bare minimum.

They need the 5+ ward because they will attract a lot of attention, but that's no huge problem for me because I take double cauldrons at the moment. (only a single lvl4). The idea behind the big exie block is that the shadow mage generally helps out the rest of the army while the exies with a 5++ can generally handle themselves without magical support. The army works pretty well against most hardcore builds although I find they still need a bit of luck like an early misfire vs double hellcannon and megablock WoC. Being able to take 12+ exies off per shot (or 17+ in the first shooting phase if I don't win the first turn rolloff) really wrecks the unit.


Ahh double cauldron would explain it. In my last game I couldn't stop thinking that 2 cauldrons would be so good (was a 4k game so easily doable). I Couldn't put the 5+ ward anywhere near as much as I would like, and ended up wimping out with them and keeping away from serious trouble (only real viable target was a horde of Savage Orc Big Uns, not a good matchup!). Mindrazored BG and Witches dug me out of a hole FTW, but makes me feel dirty. And to think the Exies were in the list so I didn't have to depend on mindrazor!

Xbox360<PS3<PC
23-10-2011, 01:15
I take a different approach for some units than most others

Firstly executioners downright suck. Blackguard are so much better, and to make executioners better than blackguard they need the Cob and ASF banner. To get that it costs something like 38 Executioners and against high elves, warriors of chaos and others you will still strike last.

Blackguard are down right awesome. Multiple units of 20 are great. They are great because you dont need to give them a CoB and BSB to make them good and they blend through anything except high elf elites (stupid SoA) and a chosenstar. Units of these work far better than executioners, but they need more skill to work well. Firstly never charge into a unit alone. They need support, so multicharge. Two 20 man units of black guard attacking a unit will do far more damage than a executioner horde. Give them the AP banner for added punch.

Reaver Bolt throwers are simply awesome. They might never make up their points, but you need them, as there are things (high elf elites and others) that blackguard cannot get through (let alone executioners). To make them effective you need a lot, a couple won't do. The combined fire of five of these is devestating and can kill a small unit a turn.

Spearmen are great. So much cheaper than the high elf variant and have eternal hatred! A big block of 40 is awesome, and should be the only horde dark elves play. Use it as a mage bunker for sac dagger and a anvil, while your black guard prepare for a flank attack:)

Crossbowmen are really good as well. Units of ten or twelve are an auto include. While units like this are not very threatening in combat, you can manuavere them to set the enemy up for a flank charge when they charge the xbowmen.

Corsairs are meh. They are like lothern sea gaurd, jack of all trades master of none. The problem is there bows are to short a range to be as good as lsg. They are good if you use them well, but usually spearmen are a better idea as they are better in most situations and cheaper.

Hyrdras can be great. You either need to take none, or as many as you can. A great combo is two chariots with a hydra multi charging. That multi charge is so powerful and is great on a wing

tmarichards
23-10-2011, 08:20
Corsairs are meh? I entirely disagree. They've rapidly become my go-to unit, 25 with full command, extra-pokey sticks and the frenzy banner are one of the best combat units I have ever used, along with Black Guard- them being different tools for different jobs makes them hard to compare directly, but together they are brutal.

I also disagree massively about Reapers, for 2pts more you can get a good unit of shades which will do more. Add in that Reapers have just 2 wounds means that T7 or not, most light shooting will bring them down in a phase. Add in that you really need 2 of them to function effectively (to have a reliable chance of wounding the high T gribblies) and you have 200pts that you have to babysit. For those points you could have so much else!

poodles
23-10-2011, 13:35
i hate reapers. I only like that they dont blow up like cannons. but 2 wounds, i have a habit of missing with them, they lose strength. plus, only allowed 2 rares in an army (4 in a grand army).

Valnir
23-10-2011, 14:24
i hate reapers. I only like that they dont blow up like cannons. but 2 wounds, i have a habit of missing with them, they lose strength. plus, only allowed 2 rares in an army (4 in a grand army).
I'm pretty sure you get 4 (two count as one rare choice) if my memory serves me:chrome:

tmarichards
23-10-2011, 14:39
Correct, you may have 4 in an army under 3000pts. But why you'd ever want to spend 400pts on them I do not know...

Don Zeko
23-10-2011, 18:39
They certainly won't do anything that 40 crossbowmen or 23 shades can't.

Xbox360<PS3<PC
24-10-2011, 01:10
You would spend 400p on reavers if you had an infantry army. If you had a cavalry and chariot spam army you would take hyrdas instead.

They can be better if you utlilise them properly. Its not about being as good as crossbowmen, they serve a differerent purpose. Crossbowmen and shades thin down enemy ranks. The reavers combine firepower to wipe out small elite units. Four wont care about warmachine hunters, they can wipe them out in a turn

Don Zeko
24-10-2011, 01:25
Dude, do the math. Quantity of shots has a quality all it's own. Assuming short range for the bolt thrower and long range for the crossbowmen, 10 crossbowmen will do more damage than the bolt thrower's multishot against anything with T3 and a 2+ save or worse and anything T4 with a 3+ save or worse. And of course the crossbowmen can fight off war machine hunters in close combat, cans stand and shoot, are core, are much harder to kill with shooting, don't auto-die when hit by pit of shades/crack's call/purple sun...I could go on. Bolt throwers are probably about twice as expensive as they should be.

EDIT: oh, and the same thing goes for 6 shades. Plus if you're using shadow magic RXB shooting will benefit much more from The Withering than Bolt Thrower shooting. Same goes for casting Flaming Sword or Enchanted Blades on the unit, or putting in a character with the Guiding Eye.