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eldargal
14-10-2011, 07:07
I am getting quite irritated at people perpetuating the erroneous idea that larger 'superheavy' vehicles are atithetical to the Dark Eldar background and playstyle. Here is precisely why it is wrong.

Dark Eldar Designer Round Table - Miniatures. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d9ed6okRXo) From 6:40 to 6:50 or thereabouts Jes Goodwin says:

..this overall feel of a cloud of stuff all the way from these ones (indicates raiders, Ravagers etc) and actually even though you know even though we've not made models of these we envisage the fact that somewhere above this you'd have raiders or slave barges that are this size (indicates a shape approximately 2-2.5ft long and 1ft tall).

So the father of the Eldar and the author of both Codex: Eldar and Codex: Dark Eldar envisage them having enormous, 'superheavy' vehicles floating about. You can't really argue with that. Then factor in the BFG ships which are vastly larger than anything in 40k scale and we know they build and utilise vessals far larger than anything you will see on the 40k tabletop. If you look carefully at the backdrop to the video you will see a large scale DE ship as well, it and others also appear on boxart like this (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1420352a_99120112011_DERavagerXBox1_873x627.jpg).

The second point that was brought up in the news and rumours section (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320357) recently was that it didn't make sense for the Dark Eldar to have larger vehicles because they couldn't deploy them through the webway because the portals were too small.

The only source cited for this was p13 of the current Codex: Eldar (the one written by Phil Kelly, one of the chaps whoenvisages large DE flyers) where it says that spacecraft are limited to the larger, arterial passages and that most passages are limited to 'strike forces' of infantry and 'small vehicles'. Now this is in a book about Craftworld Eldar who deploy things ranging in size from Vypers to Scorpions, Vampire Raiders and Phantom Titans.

But somehow we are expected to believe the Dark Eldar, who inhabit the largest webway port node with more links accross the galaxy spanning Eldar Empire than any other are going to have trouble deploying anything larger than a void raven. It is nonsense,

Page 8 of the DE codex; 'Some of these gateways into realspace are small and dim, but the arterial portals above the largest city-states blaze with ethereal light. Each can accomodate a pirate fleet with ease...
...Commoragh was originally the greatest of the webway port-cities, able to transport a fleet to any of the most vital planets of the Eldar Empire.
Page 13; Vect transports a Space Marine strike cruiser to Commoragh.
Page 14; A portal large enough to allow transit to two dozen SM strike cruisers is opened above the city.
Returning to the C:E quote, 'small vehicles' means just that, small vehicles. It is merely an assumption that this refers simply to the 'smallest' vehicles, especially since the Eldar are known to deploy much larger craft than anything in the DE codex at present. No one argues that these are antithetical to Craftworld Eldar, yet for some reason the same can't be said of the race occupying the largest webway port city in existence.

It seems obvious to all but the most blinkered and stubborn mind that the Dark Eldar have the capacity to both construct and deploy large (in the 40k sense) vessals and deploy them throughout the galaxy using the Webway. Not only that the author of their current rulebook and the man who invented them both 'envisage' them doing just that so it is quite clearly intended to be a facet of the race, albeit one that is beyond the GW scope of scale (but not beyond Forge Worlds).

I imagine the confusion comes from words like 'titan' and 'superheavy'. The Dark Eldar do not use walkers, so titans in the Craftworld sense would be unfitting but superheavy is a misleading term. Taken literally nothing about the Dark Eldar is superheavy, one imagines even their largest vessals would be constructed of lightweight materials and have anti-grav engines like the raiders. But that is not to say they needn't be large. We know the Dark Eldar assault entire worlds in their largest raids and carry away millions or more at a time, there is simply no way they could do this using only raiders.

So there you have it, precisely why I think it is quite clear that the Dark Eldar are intended to utilise large vessals and the idea that they can't deploy them due to webway constraints is simply unfounded.

Comments, constructive criticism and whatnot welcome.

Edit: there is an interview iwth Rick Priestley somewhere he talks about the smallest BFG ships being five metres long or something, in reference to Warmaster. It came up during the dreadfleet rumours and now I can't find it. If true it means that even the smallest DE ship is longer than a 40k battlefield.

Israfael
14-10-2011, 07:12
Looks like you showed them.

MagosHereticus
14-10-2011, 07:34
im a little curious as to what spurred this post into life but, man would i love a jabba the hut style super barge

eldargal
14-10-2011, 07:39
Well the 'debate' here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320357) spurred it on, but this issue pops up every couple of months somewhere it seems.

TheLaughingGod
14-10-2011, 08:32
There you go, Eldargal. You need to educate them. Good work doing it.

Hendarion
14-10-2011, 08:58
The only source cited for this was p13 of the current Codex: Eldar (the one written by Phil Kelly, one of the chaps whoenvisages large DE flyers) where it says that spacecraft are limited to the larger, arterial passages and that most passages are limited to 'strike forces' of infantry and 'small vehicles'. Now this is in a book about Craftworld Eldar who deploy things ranging in size from Vypers to Scorpions, Vampire Raiders and Phantom Titans.

What people seem to forget when reading "Strike Forces" is that even bombers and super heavy tanks are part of Strike Forces and not just 30 dudes we see on the table-top. 40k as a game is not even close to represent a typical 40k battle or fast assault. Not even Apocalypse comes even close to the most tiny battles. You know, a planet is a HUGE thing and something like 2 football fields full of soldiers surely is *not* what the 40k-fluff has in mind when speaking about battles or "Strike Forces".

Being aware of that will make clear that even though the Eldar Codex speaks about "strike forces being small enough to fit through the Webway", this still includes a vast amount of vehicles and units. So ofc there will be lots and lots of passages where at max a Vyper might fit through, but the Webway is a network. Not only one road leeds to Rome.

Malagate
14-10-2011, 09:43
Being aware of that will make clear that even though the Eldar Codex speaks about "strike forces being small enough to fit through the Webway", this still includes a vast amount of vehicles and units. So ofc there will be lots and lots of passages where at max a Vyper might fit through, but the Webway is a network. Not only one road leads to Rome.

Indeed, the scale of all this does need to be remembered, people tend to see what they have before them with the models they have and not imagine the bigger picture.

When it comes to the possible sizes of portals to and from the webway, I always seem to recall a bit of fluff from the new DE codex (can't remember pages sorry) that mentions they have taken whole stars from real-space and put them in their own bit of the webway with no dire consequences.

Put it this way, a titan is large compared to a tank, but a titan is miniscule compared to the planet it is deployed on, and that planet (assuming rocky with Earth dimensions) is microscopic compared to the majority of stars out there.

Said stars still fit in the webway with no problems from emissions and gravity. They had to get in there somehow, that somehow definately being a webway portal of a cosmic scale.
Even if in the current fluff timeline DE could make a webway portal only a millionth of the size of the sun-eating ones, it would still be super-massive enough for whole space fleets carrying titan legions to pass through it.

Edito: also forgot to thank eldargal for making this thread, wouldn't want the previous thread getting too cluttered with off topicness.

eldargal
14-10-2011, 09:51
Well to be fair it was the pre-Fall Eldar who stuffed the stars in a jar and popped them in the webway.:) But yes, for some reason the idea of a giant slave barge is too much but the fact they fly around in giant starcraft isn't. I don't get it at all, and given all I've said above I think it apparent that it is a completely insuuportable position to argue the DE don't have larger craft than we see in the codex.

Godzooky
14-10-2011, 09:56
The size range of imaginary science fiction vehicles has been, and always will be, a very emotive subject.

Bunnahabhain
14-10-2011, 10:18
I think there are two issues here.

What could fit through the webway- which Eldargirl has nicely shown is not a limiting factor.

What would be used for combat by Dark Eldar- a force renown for hitting weak spots, and avoiding taking on the toughest concentrations of enemies. Why should they bring dedicated anti titan weapons, for instance? They can deal with them if they find them, but are not planning to find them.

It isn't they couldn't build them- there is no reason I know of they couldn't build stuff the same size a Craft worlders, but that they don't need or wish to.

A giant slave barge is all well and good, but it doesn't have much place on a battlefield.

eldargal
14-10-2011, 10:26
See I disagree with that. I agree not everything makes sense from a 40k tabletop battle perspective, but I could see a giant slave barge for Apocalypse for example. Av13, supersonix, flyer, 6 heavy 6 S9 dark lances, high transport capacity and perhaps some kind of slaving themed attack. Scooping up a squad or something.

This isn't just about what makes sense from a hobby perspective, but I'm just trying to sink the idea that the Dark Eldar don't have anything bigger than the voidraven or Tantalus. BFG proves it wrong, Jes Goodwin says its wrong, its wrong.:)

KharnTheBetrayer01
14-10-2011, 11:02
Anti-titan weapons could be used for when they wish to make an example of someone. It is not unlike Dark Eldar to be beaten back, only to return with much greater numbers or far more specialised troops to take down what embarrassed them. Its more likely that they'd send mandrakes into the titan, but why wouldn't they decide that a vehicle that, if locked down and disabled essentially becomes a sardine tin filled with souls./

Renowned or not, given that they have been known to take whole planets in a raid why wouldn't they have contingency plans in case the planet has access to larger weaponry?

MagosHereticus
14-10-2011, 11:51
obviously sometimes only troops on foot will be able to squeeze out the end of a particular tunnel and other times you will have portals through which a dwarf star can fit, and im sure the elasticity of the tunnel mouth depends on the quality of the tech used to create the openings

the webway has never ever been described as consistent

Lord-Caerolion
14-10-2011, 12:16
As Eldargal has said, if Jes Goodwin, the father of all things Eldar (and to a lesser extent Phil Kelly, the co-writer of the new Commorite background and second go-to guy on all matters Eldar within the studio) says they have them, then they have them. The guy wrote everything about the Commorites, and apparently has pages and pages of unpublished material that they couldn't squeeze into the codex. To argue that they have a wrong idea of what the race is capable of is laughable. The Dark Eldar are capable of exactly what Jes says they are, because he wrote everything about them.

Symrivven
14-10-2011, 12:56
The Dark Eldar prefere splinter weapons because it kills the enemy slowly, still they occasionally run around with blasters in case they want a nice explosion or peppering terminators in splinter fire becomes tiresome ( and boredom might be more feared than any enemy).

In the same vein, I think they have the means to bring a titan down slowly with lots of pain and suffering, but occasionally they will just bring in the big guns to blow it up quick and dirty or with some nice pyrotechnics.

Some more art to show their big stuff, Eldargal already showed some background art with a big raider like vehicle in the backgrond, here is the entire piece, take a look at the craft in the left (forgeworld please make a model of that!(though it might be to big even for forgeworld)).

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/243/backgroundboxartsmall.jpg/

blackcherry
14-10-2011, 13:13
The only real mention of webway portal limitations that I can think of is mentioned in the old eye of terror book in reference to the ulthwe strike force. Though there were mitigating factors in why only small forces were being used.

Other than that, I see no reason why they wouldn't have large or 'superheavy' vehicles. Theres only so much ravagers and their air craft can do to those sort of things. Not to mention the logistics of a large scale raid calling for larger craft to hold those they have captured.

ChrisMurray
14-10-2011, 13:22
I can't believe we need a thread for this when it's already been said by Jes in the design video that there are larger craft. I believe he even showed some sketches of some to people at GD.

There is justification for most things. Titans would cause massive amounts of fear and panic. Imagine a massive titan striding toward your city, not all clean like a craftworld titan but one with glowing eyes and all kinds of horrors over the body. Skin draped over it, chains and spikes. Would scare the hell out of large groups of people\soldiers.

Huge "slave barges" allowing very heavy weapons and hundreds of slaves to be stored.

Massive crature\machine hybrids creaded by the covens, possibly captured and tormented tyranid creatures. A masterpiece of work by the covens.

All these things could be in a DE army. Just because they are big or heavily armed doesn't mean they are slow, DE tech is advance and these things could still be as fast as a raider. This is 40k, almost anything is possible in the grim darkness of the far future.

Xisor
14-10-2011, 19:45
You're preaching to a chorister, at least for me, Eldargal. :D

As you've elaborated: sometimes the Dark Eldar aim 'a bit larger' than the equivalent of a large village being protected by a typical 40k TT force. That 'bit larger' goes up through towns, cities, counties, countries, continents and planets. I'd not be surprised for entire heavily populated systems being 'taken' by Dark Eldar.

Almost certainly 'bigger things' would appear.

As for titans? I can imagine a big old Haemonculus-devised monstrosity being deployed, certainly. It might be of the size of a titan and, perhaps, even have the 'four limbs' type akin to a titan. It might even quack like a titan.

But it's all right, you can call it something else. ;)

Tay051173096
14-10-2011, 21:53
I always imaged a dark eldar titan would be similar to a subjugator titan...

http://www.emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php?title=Titans:Subjugator

"When the hordes of Slaanesh attack, it is the Subjugator Scout Titans which race ahead of the army. It is the role of these swift war machines to suppress the enemy fire and allow the Fiends, Chaos Space Marines and other followers of Chaos to attack with minimal resistance."

Instead of imperial weapons, you would have dark lances and splinter cannons maybe some mind horror from the coven's? Chem spray anyone?

As for bigger stuff, the raider does not look like its for true space or atmosphere breaching so from the shard ships there must be a carrier of sorts...

That would be a brillant bit of art rows of raiders being preped sor an attack in a huge hanger of a carrier craft :eek:

There must ba bigger versions of the bombers as well, for when you have say, an ork or nid problem that need removing.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
14-10-2011, 23:44
The size range of imaginary science fiction vehicles has been, and always will be, a very emotive subject.

Hear hear!

Stonerhino
15-10-2011, 03:33
It's not that the DE can't build or don't have super heavies. It's more that their style of warfare would not permit a slower superheavy to keep up. Remember it's not like some toon can just throw down a WWP and have a superheavy Godzilla sized Talos jump out. Or if they could build a supersonic up-gunned Manta. Why is that not the mainstay of all DE attacks???

A drop ship that leaves a starship enters the atmosphere and deploys a bunch of Raider or Ravengers, great. Having that same dropship be as fast as the Raiders outgunning a bunch of Ravengers, stupid. Why have either light vehicle then???

It's better to use the least amount of resources that you can to accomplish a given task. So creating superheavy vehicles that do not fullfill battlefield roles that cannot be accomplished by smaller vehicle is a waste. And something that no DE leader will start unless they have extra resources setting around and an almost guaranty of having a high return on the investment.

eldargal
15-10-2011, 04:48
There is very little sense to your arguments. No one say is saying they would be slow or literally heavy, we are talking large scale ships which we KNOW they use, both from Jes Goodwin in the video, box art and BFG. The BFG ships are metres long in 40k scale, and move damned fast. Wracks and grotesques are slow, 'shambling' to quote Phil Kelly, yet no one says they don't fit the army style. As to why they aren't the mainstay, who says they aren't? Jes Goodwin says they envisage them floating above the battlefield doing whatever it is they do while the smaller vessals swarm around below.

...what? Who saiud anything about a drop ship that deploys raiders, Mr Goodwin just mentioned a large raider and slave barge.

Right, by that logic no race would build titans or superheavies.

Please, please read the OP and watch the damned video, Jes Goodwin TALKS ABOUT them, they HAVE them, there is NO doubt and they fit the army style just as much as titans and literally superheavy tanks fit the Imperium of Man.

MajorWesJanson
15-10-2011, 05:31
It's better to use the least amount of resources that you can to accomplish a given task. So creating superheavy vehicles that do not fullfill battlefield roles that cannot be accomplished by smaller vehicle is a waste. And something that no DE leader will start unless they have extra resources setting around and an almost guaranty of having a high return on the investment.

Battlefield roles like collecting loot and/or slaves? Seems more efficient to have a single larger barge that can carry 500 slaves than need 50 raiders that can only carry 10, and that is if the troops that ride on them hop off.

Stonerhino
15-10-2011, 06:03
The IoM's style of warfare is far different then that of the DE. A huge slow moving gun platform with tons of armor is fitting in an IG army.

And using Star ships is a ridiculous comparison.

A starship has a function and fullfills a battlefield role that say a Raider never could. So it makes sence as to why the DE would invest the resources needed to build them. However investing the resources to build a really big Ravenger that really just does what several actually Ravenger do is silly.

.
..what? Who saiud anything about a drop ship that deploys raiders, Mr Goodwin just mentioned a large raider and slave barge.A Raider is a transport, so a "Large Raider" would not be the same as a Titan or superheavy tank. A "Slave Barge" again sounds like a large transport for gathering up large amounts slaves after a raid, not a combat vehicle. Sure either of these could mount a fair amount of firepower but neither of them are going to be true combat vehicles. So not the same as a Titan and such.


Wracks and grotesques are slow, 'shambling' to quote Phil Kelly, yet no one says they don't fit the army style. And you can drop a WWP on the ground and bam! They are in the fight. But you can't just drop a WWP and have a wierd DE bio-titan walk out.


Please, please read the OP and watch the damned video, Jes Goodwin TALKS ABOUT them, they HAVE them, there is NO doubt and they fit the army style just as much as titans and literally superheavy tanks fit the Imperium of Man.I have not seen that video for months. But if you finish the part that you are trying to say proves your point about superheavy fighting vehicles. Rewatch it from about 6:50.

Phill Kelly, says that DE are not about beat you down force and that's why they thought including tanks was a bad idea. So to follow that logic, if a tank is not fast/sleek enough to fight the army then what makes you think a really big tank would??? "But I'm talking about a flying vehicle that has heavy tank armor and can out shoot a titan, not a tank. Besides it's be just as fast as a Ravenger". No matter how you try and justify it to yourself. The DE are not an army that meets force with force. They run from force untill they can find a weak spot and then they use their speed to exploit that weakness. And no superheavies to not fit well into that type of warfare.


Battlefield roles like collecting loot and/or slaves? Seems more efficient to have a single larger barge that can carry 500 slaves than need 50 raiders that can only carry 10, and that is if the troops that ride on them hop off. See that would be fitting and something that's probably often seen after most of the fighting has died down. As in they are not combat vehicles.

See I disagree with that. I agree not everything makes sense from a 40k tabletop battle perspective, but I could see a giant slave barge for Apocalypse for example. Av13, supersonix, flyer, 6 heavy 6 S9 dark lances, high transport capacity and perhaps some kind of slaving themed attack. Scooping up a squad or something.Where as something like this does not fit the army and does not do more then a couple of Voidravens. But would require a lot more resources to build.

eldargal
15-10-2011, 06:08
You are clutching at straws. You have no idea what the function of something described as a 'large raider' is and I ntoe you don't address the slave barge concern. You simply can't dismiss the fact that the creator of the Eldar and the author of the Dark Eldar codex talk quite openly about large scale vehicles, there is box art of large scale vehicles and they have large scale vehicles in BFG!. It is simply delusional to argue that in spite of all this hard evidence they don't fit with the army.

No one is talking about tanks! For gods sake I address the confusion over the term superheavy in the opening post, no one is talking about heavy, slow tanks. No one is justifying anything of the sort, you are using the inarguable fact that the Dark Eldar have no use for heavy, slow vehicles that operate on a principle of bruthe force to argue that they have nothing larger than a void raven of Tantalus. It is simple, onjectively wrong and the fact I have to keep stating this is ridiculous.

They have large scale vehicles, they had them in BFG, they have them in box art, Jes Goodwin talks about them, so they have them now. This is simply beyond dispute. The fact you can't see it is frightening.

Also, read the Dark Eldar codex and watch the videos, they aren't into efficiency. They are willing to expend resources producing vast numbers of weapons just to get one or two that met thier standards. They are willing to waste resources just to satisfy their own pride and vanity. There is every reason they would have a huge slave barge floating about simply to terrify the enemy.

The short version:
There are pictures of very large Dark Eldar vehicles and Jes Goodwin talks about them envisaging the Dark Eldar using very large vehicles. The Dark Eldar have very large vehicles.

I simply cannot comprehend how this is even in dispute, it is ridiculous. I might as well argue the Imperium doesn't have Space Marines based on my opinion of genetics.

Stonerhino
15-10-2011, 06:33
I talked about a "Large Raider" and "Slave Barge". And I don't think that a Raider that 5-10 time the size of a normal Raider would have 36+ time as much fire power and heavy tank armor. Maybe if he said "Large Ravengers" or "Large Combat Vehicles" I would say ok maybe. But he did not. He talked about what sounds like large transports; So no, the DE are not going have a large number of vehicles that are ment to get into firefights with other super heavies.

You need to read what is being said.

It's not that the DE can't build or don't have super heavies.They would not build the type of superheavy you are suggesting. So let the Fanboyisms go. They are not Craft Worlders and don't fight in pitched battles outside of the table top.

Palvinore
15-10-2011, 06:33
Although we know larger vehicles exist, do we know for sure that they are combat vehicles?

The way they are described, hovering high above while all the little Raiders and Ravagers zoom about below fighting and collecting slaves, almost shows them as non-combat logistic vehicles or mobile command posts.

For all we know, which is very little concrete detail, they might be centralized transports for all the slaves a planetary raid brings in: Raider picks up slaves on a raid, drops them off at big superheavy floating barge, gets fresh ammunition then goes off on another raid. There could be a constant stream of Raiders and Ravagers zipping back and forth dropping off slaves or getting repairs/reloaded.

eldargal
15-10-2011, 06:49
Stonerhino, you are aguing about nothing then. I'm not talking about the Dark Eldar having things the equal of titans and baneblades and such, I'm saying they without doubt have large scale vehicles that do match the way they fight, whatever it may be. Larger raiders to deliver more troops to the enemy quickly, larger ravagers just to show off how powerful a kabal is that it can have such things built, garguantuan coven creatures just because haemonculi are damned lunatics etc.

Palvinore, we don't, but I'm not necessarily talking about what role the vehicle plays, just that they have them.

But given the way the Dark Eldar fight some kind of front line slave barge does make sense though. You don't want to have to take your frontline troop transports away from combating the enemy to transport slaves about, better to have a larger vessal that can pop down from orbit, collect larger numbers of slaves and then sod off back to Commoragh before any large scale attack can be launched against it. :)

Likewise if the DE are attacking a heavily fortified installation, as they did at the Bakka naval base, they may want to employ large scale haywire devices against counterattacks by enemy titans and whatnot.

Stonerhino
15-10-2011, 07:25
Stonerhino, you are aguing about nothing then. I'm not talking about the Dark Eldar having things the equal of titans and baneblades and such, I'm saying they without doubt have large scale vehicles that do match the way they fight, whatever it may be. Larger raiders to deliver more troops to the enemy quickly, larger ravagers just to show off how powerful a kabal is that it can have such things built, garguantuan coven creatures just because haemonculi are damned lunatics etc. My first post was in direct responce to:

See I disagree with that. I agree not everything makes sense from a 40k tabletop battle perspective, but I could see a giant slave barge for Apocalypse for example. Av13, supersonix, flyer, 6 heavy 6 S9 dark lances, high transport capacity and perhaps some kind of slaving themed attack. Scooping up a squad or something.and
I always imaged a dark eldar titan would be similar to a subjugator titan...Both of which are out of character for the DE. As both are designed for a style of fighting that the DE do not do.

Remember it's not about speed. A Falcon Grav tank is very fast but a simular tank would not fit how the DE conduct raids, according to Phill Kelly.

So your flying tank... I mean "Slave Barge" (because calling it a slave barge means it's not a tank) would not fit as well.

Lighten the armor to 12-11-10, make it a flyer with hover and arm it with 2 twin linked Void Lances and a few splinter cannons. And we are talking more accurate depliction of a Slave Barge. Let it transport all coven themed units Talos, Cronus, ect; Transport numbers within reason. Maybe even let it drop special WWPs that allow units to disembark while the vehicle is not in hover mode.

Remember my argument is against DE having superheavy front line fighting vehicles. And your idea of a slave barge, despite the name would be a front line fighting vehicle in any army it was part of.

eldargal
15-10-2011, 07:34
Well it should have been AV12, typo. As to armament I was basing it on the tantalus but with dark lances isntead of disintegrators to keep it in keeping with the raider. It was just an example thogh, I was just trying to indicate the general purpose wasn't to attack heavy armour but just to collect slaves and defend itself while doing so.

I also agree about the subjugator titan thing, that doesn't fit at all. I can see gargantuan coven creatures being used simply because webway portals can be stretched quite large, up to 50m for short periods of time, so something like that could be deployed. But not something like a titan, no kind of manufactured walkers please! Heck even the gargantuan creature could float like a talos.

Stonerhino
15-10-2011, 09:02
Really??? You gave it 36 S9 lance shots and it's not ment to attack heavy armor.

Palvinore
15-10-2011, 09:50
But given the way the Dark Eldar fight some kind of front line slave barge does make sense though. You don't want to have to take your frontline troop transports away from combating the enemy to transport slaves about, better to have a larger vessal that can pop down from orbit, collect larger numbers of slaves and then sod off back to Commoragh before any large scale attack can be launched against it. :)


You can reach the opposite conclusion using the same rationale of keeping the normal Raiders in the fight: A centralized transport near the front line for them to drop off and thereby not have to go back to whatever rear base or ship or to Commoragh itself to drop off slaves.

The idea of a superheavy fighting vehicle that also can also transport massive numbers of slaves ("it does it all") is harder to design and for suspension of disbelief than dedicated fighting vehicles and dedicated transport vehicles. If it were easy to make vehicles that did everything well there would be no need for more specialized designs at all. The existence of specialized designs such as the Scorpion superheavy among the Craftworld Eldar, which lacks transport capability and is a pure fighting vehicle, shows even Eldar struggle to make vehicles do everything well at once.

eldargal
15-10-2011, 09:55
Actually that should have just been 'heavy 6 dark lances', as in two of them, the extra 6 wasn't right


Really??? You gave it 36 S9 lance shots and it's not ment to attack heavy armor.

Stonerhino
15-10-2011, 17:45
Actually that should have just been 'heavy 6 dark lances', as in two of them, the extra 6 wasn't rightSo you had a type-o in the AV, random 6 there for no reason, we are supposed to know that you ment two of them from the "S" on dark lances and what the "S9" was also a mistake??? I don't mean to be rude but it sounds more like you wanted you wanted the DE to have a "Supersonic up-gunned Manta". And now that it's been pointed out that that is what you wanted everyone to believe a DE superheavy would be. You are back peddling trying to tone it down into a more what it should be. Even if having the firepower of four Ravengers is still to much, it's at least a step in the right direction.

Xisor
15-10-2011, 19:04
A Manta completely fits the DE style. Give it DE engines and shields and we're good to go.

Hell, we achieved a fair consensus in the Epic community when pottering about in the early stages of the Raiders supplement to give the DE exactly that. Massive dropship: cool!

(Of course, composed of DE technology.)

Just like Eldar titans. They. Are. Not. Slow.

Godzooky
15-10-2011, 19:24
So you had a type-o in the AV, random 6 there for no reason, we are supposed to know that you ment two of them from the "S" on dark lances and what the "S9" was also a mistake??? I don't mean to be rude but it sounds more like you wanted you wanted the DE to have a "Supersonic up-gunned Manta". And now that it's been pointed out that that is what you wanted everyone to believe a DE superheavy would be. You are back peddling trying to tone it down into a more what it should be. Even if having the firepower of four Ravengers is still to much, it's at least a step in the right direction.

She's a woman (at least on the internet ;)). It's her prerogative to change her mind. :p

Stonerhino
15-10-2011, 21:50
Everyone knows that everyone on the internet is a guy untill proven otherwise.

Really, you believe that a Manta fits well with a DE army???

The flying titan that manoeuvers so slow that it does not benefit from being a flyer when shot at. Built with heavy armor, shielding and under gunned for it's size. Ya, that really sounds like a glass cannon that uses it's speed to engage an enemy and pull out before the enemy even knows what happened.

But sure if you take that then add 36 void lance shot instead of 1 TL S-D, make it manueverable so it benefits from being a flyer and able to keep up with with a lightning fast raid. Sure it sounds more DEish but what type of points cost normal manta 2,000+ DE supersonic up-gunned Manta ???

And now why don't we hear about this DE super bomber that laughs at the titans it just rolls over while deploying it's cargo and picking up slaves??? Because something like that would be copied and appear in almost every DE raid whether or not the defenders had something to confront it. We don't ever hear about this type of vehicle because the DE don't have them.

If you wanted to give the DE some super heavies so they are not out gunned by other armies. Fine, but don't claim that they are fitting for the army or that the fluff backs up their existance.

Xisor
15-10-2011, 22:57
DE engines and shields. That bit missed you? The aspect of 'something big and powerful but with DE gubbins', not the "I WOULD GIVE THEM A MANTA EXACTLY AS IS" bit that didn't get typed out, but the stuff that actually did.

Connor MacLeod
15-10-2011, 23:06
Dark Eldar have starships and fighters, which means they ought to have stuff that is capable of deployment of superheavies. Given the Eldar can field them (Titans, etc.) I see no reason the Dark eldar could not. Reasons why they may choose not to (or be prevented from doing so) could include

- Rules of conduct or combat that preclude their use, much as combat in the Dune universe was highly stylzied and ruled out certain kinds of weapons (EG nukes.) Having everyonh ave Titans and Superheavies and being willing to ues them is bound to be destructiv eon the enviroment. Not to mention the one in charge (VEcht, I think) probably doesn't want anyone below him to have assets that might be used to topple him or kill him WMD-style. (HE seems to be the one who uses the WMD, not let others ue them on him.)

- Logistics. Super heavies are powerful, but they are also likely resource intensive to build and maintain, and as fast as Eldar stuff is, they are likely to be more sluggish than their lighter stuff, which means they can't exactly keep up in formation. Given that the Dark Eldar usualyl dont' favor head on tactics (unless for some reason they're up against Iron Snakes) the lack of superheavies probably isn't a problem. Indeed, they may even be a liability (economics wise.. why bother maintaining something you may rarely or never use?)

Harriticus
15-10-2011, 23:12
DE could obviously make a superheavy, they're just not in the game for gameplay reasons, FW hasn't picked up DE yet, and nobody in a BL book has thought of it yet.

There's really very little standardization with DE in fluff as the military forces are made up of unified private armies that procure their weapons from independent contractors.

KharnTheBetrayer01
16-10-2011, 02:12
Why is this so very hard for you to grasp Stonerhino? Despite what you may have as a vision of the Dark Eldar, the Creator and current army book designer and writer disagree with you. He (Phil Kelly) kinda gets the deciding vote.

As to what sort of weird and wonderful things the DE could use as a Superheavy... Why does it need to be a Titan, or floating tank.

Given the Haemonculi's love of experimentation and the DE's love of soul collecting, why would it not just be a huge soul collecting, pain delivering super Talos? Some sort of mass-harvester that gathers pain and bodyparts in a most efficient and yet painful manner.

Can't you picture it already? Possibly a mass of writhing Mechandrite-like tendrils underneath a floating living platform, scooping up foes left right and centre. Maybe something akin to the War of the Worlds Tripods, only with more hovering. Maybe something akin to a giant Mechanical man-o-war.

Floats around the battlefield, is hard to down due to void shields and maybe some sort of mandrake-like phasing ability (Something good needs to come of that lore). 2d6 auto kill wounds over any unit it floats over, though these wounds can be stopped by a strength test. Maybe some sort of pain-token allocation/generation stuff, maybe it can use a mass of pain tokens to supercharge a unit. Whatever, have fun with it, its DE.

Use a little imagination in trying to make something exist rather than limiting it to what fits within a very strict archetype and you'll have far more fun.

MagosHereticus
16-10-2011, 03:08
Stonerhino don't pretend your personal aesthetic choices are anything but

Stonerhino
16-10-2011, 03:26
When you have the designers setting there telling you that they didn't include any tanks (Falcon Grav tanks are damb fast) because they do not fit the theme of the army. Then talk about large transport flying over the battlefield. It's not my personal aesthetics.

And I never said that they do not or could not have superheavies. As a matter of fact I think that was my first statement in my first post.

I have been saying that they would not have superheavy front line fighting vehicles that are designed to fight other front line superheavy fighting vehicles. An idea echoed by the designers. It's not how they envisioned or designed the army. So invent your superheavies all you like.

But don't think that because there is an option for there to be DE superheavies. That the background or anything else supports any flying tanks or titans that you build. Because it does not. And definently does not support a Fast Spikey Black Manta as a DE vehicle.

Edit:

It's not that the DE can't build or don't have super heavies. It's more that their style of warfare would not permit a slower superheavy to keep up.Yup, it was the first argument that I made in this thread.

juicifer
16-10-2011, 05:40
Of course they have superheavies, and they're probably open topped, armed with 36" weapons and wrapped in protective void paper.
I'm pretty sure the current DE codex just represents a smaller real space raiding force, not a planetary rape fiesta force.

eldargal
16-10-2011, 05:43
You were taking that whole bit of wishlishting far too seriously. I made a decisive argument about DE having larger craft, we got to speculating. I got overexcited and made a few typos while writing out some stats I just thought up right then without giving it much thought. None of it in anyway compromises my argument that the creators of the Dark Eldar see them having such large vehicles and that we even have pictured of them. Yet you've focused on that one bit of whimsy and blown it out of all proportion.


So you had a type-o in the AV, random 6 there for no reason, we are supposed to know that you ment two of them from the "S" on dark lances and what the "S9" was also a mistake??? I don't mean to be rude but it sounds more like you wanted you wanted the DE to have a "Supersonic up-gunned Manta". And now that it's been pointed out that that is what you wanted everyone to believe a DE superheavy would be. You are back peddling trying to tone it down into a more what it should be. Even if having the firepower of four Ravengers is still to much, it's at least a step in the right direction.

All Phil Kelly says is they don't have heavy front-line tanks to pound the enemy with, nothing about them not having large vehicles, that is you making inferences to support your own vision of how the Dark Eldar fight, one that is unsupported by the context of Mr Kellys statement and the clear-cut comment from Jes Goodwin. You are still wrong.


I have been saying that they would not have superheavy front line fighting vehicles that are designed to fight other front line superheavy fighting vehicles. An idea echoed by the designers. It's not how they envisioned or designed the army. So invent your superheavies all you like.

But don't think that because there is an option for there to be DE superheavies. That the background or anything else supports any flying tanks or titans that you build. Because it does not. And definently does not support a Fast Spikey Black Manta as a DE vehicle.

Stonerhino
16-10-2011, 06:23
Yes, a heavy front line tank to pound their enemies... Like how a Falcon is a slow moving brawler of a tank right??? Seriously??? When very fast Eldar tanks are to "Heavy" for the theme of an army. You will still argue that a heavy front line flying superheavy tank to pound their enemies with fits???

These statements are sounding more and more like "I iz fanboi, you iz not so you iz wrong". ~Not directed at anyone just the arguments being made. For example: Phill Kelly, said "Tanks" not superheavy flying tanks, so a superheavy flying tanks fits the army.

eldargal
16-10-2011, 07:16
For gods sake read my damned posts, I specificaly said it would NOT be a heavily armoured, heavily armed vehicle certainly not when compared to other races. Just LARGE.

Jes Goodwin and Phil Kelly say they have large slave barges and raiders, you say they shoudln't. You are wrong, end of story and no amount of twisting what I (or Phil Kelly) say will change that.

As to whatever point you are trying to make regarding the Falcon, what I'm proposing is a lare Dark Eldar flyer with the same armour as a Falcon, 25% shorter range at four or five times the cost at the very least. The only thing they have in common is the AV. I am not trying to create a 'lumpen, armoured battle tank' to quote Phil Kelly, but a large, sleek lightly armed and armoured flyer in keeping with the DE theme of fast raids not prolonged warfare.

Charax
16-10-2011, 07:42
Well, the Slavebringer assault boat kinda sounds like a large Slave Barge to me, what with it..bringing...slaves and being large enough to be represented in BFG.

So in one corner you have Eldargal, the designers, the rules, background and common sense.

In the other you have Stonerhino and illiteracy

I know which horse I'm backing in this race, Go Dru!

Stonerhino
16-10-2011, 09:43
No, you did and then you posted what your idea of a DE superheavy looks like:

See I disagree with that. I agree not everything makes sense from a 40k tabletop battle perspective, but I could see a giant slave barge for Apocalypse for example. Av13, supersonix, flyer, 6 heavy 6 S9 dark lances, high transport capacity and perhaps some kind of slaving themed attack. Scooping up a squad or something.To which I said:

They would not build the type of superheavy you are suggesting. So let the Fanboyisms go. They are not Craft Worlders and don't fight in pitched battles outside of the table top. I even put forth an idea of what I think a slave barge might look like:

Lighten the armor to 12-11-10, make it a flyer with hover and arm it with 2 twin linked Void Lances and a few splinter cannons. And we are talking more accurate depliction of a Slave Barge. Let it transport all coven themed units Talos, Cronus, ect; Transport numbers within reason. Maybe even let it drop special WWPs that allow units to disembark while the vehicle is not in hover mode.

Remember my argument is against DE having superheavy front line fighting vehicles. And your idea of a slave barge, despite the name would be a front line fighting vehicle in any army it was part ofThen you flipped and said the AV was a typo and so was the number of weapons ect. So you even agree that your posted vehicle idea was OTT.


In the other you have Stonerhino and illiteracyCute. Don't even read what's being said and blindly side with fanboys claiming that the designers are on their side when they don't even support the vehicle stats they posted. You Sir are made of win, you know that.

eldargal
16-10-2011, 09:50
So in other words based on a poorly thought out and hurriedly typed profile that was a minor, minor point in the debate you threw a huge hissy fit for nothing, because you agree they could deploy larger scale vehicles as Jes Goodwin says. Splendid.

blackcherry
16-10-2011, 09:55
Ok, this thread is getting a little out of control at the moment. Its gotten down to name calling and petty bickering. Just slightly OT. Lets just calm down before the mods get involved.

eldargal
16-10-2011, 10:07
Quite, I might even see if I can get a mod to delete the whole stonerhino-myself hissy fit to get the thread back to what actually matters. Namely that the developers envisage much larger vehicles for the Dark Eldar so saying they don't have them is silly.

Chem-Dog
16-10-2011, 17:50
.... the developers envisage much larger vehicles for the Dark Eldar so saying they don't have them is silly.


Silly or just uninformed? I've always seen the Dark Eldar as using much larger craft than a Raider and the designer's round-table vid, when I saw it in the run-up to the D-Eldar release, meerly rubber stamped my vision.

No self respecting arch-villain is going to drive about in a spiky paper airplane when he can sit in luxury at the height of decadence in a huge statement of his own superiority.

The issue of the vehicles being "superheavy" is something of a red herring, in Imperial reckoning it seems to represent anything that's larger than a Landraider regardless of actual size, there's nothing to differentiate between, say, a Baneblade and something huge like a Leviathan or Capitol Imperialis. So, in short, it's not so much a usefule size classification as it is a sticker that says "To big for regular 40K". Certainly nothing that qualifies "weight".

I imagine them being huge craft that act as mother-ships for Raiders, Venoms, Reavers and even Hellions, not needing to be fast like their passengers they loom in the distance as the smaller craft ferry back more and more captives for it's holds, perhaps closing in to relish a particularly exciting skirmish close up.
Perhaps they even carry a permanent webway portal in them.

Such craft could be mobile laboratories for Hamonculi recieving prisoners, being rendered down into ammunition or turned into crazed monsters and unleashed on their former comrades.

There's no limit to how big they can be (evil overlord trumps expense and practicality) and you could even have an entire battle taking place aboard a particularly grand example. :evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

Connor MacLeod
16-10-2011, 19:03
The other thing about a very large vehicle is that.. it generally can take more resource than several smaller vehicles. Look at Baneblades.. anywhere from 300 or so tonnes (for the Forgeworld iteration) to a thousand or more (for older epic iterations, the WW2 in space version.) Either way you're talking a massive amount of metal, and you could build quite a few more smaller tanks from either mass.

There's always a tradeoff between quantity and quality in issues like this, and the determining factor is always going to be what suits the purposes of the force at hand, not what "seems logical" to an individual (people's idea of 'logic' can get pretty bizarre anyways - there are innumerable political examples one can cite IRL.)

Also deep down I suspect that the DE simply don't *need* a superheavy analogue - their already existing capabilities compensate for this. They have quite powerful and penetrating heavy weapons (which you could mount in a highly mobile, well hidden platform for titan hunting. But hell a couple large D-cannon could probably be godo Titan-killing weapons too.) and even if that doesn't work, Dark Eldar heavily emphasize attack craft as well, which they (or any race for that matter) can call in to wipe out a Titan with the right payload.

Idaan
16-10-2011, 21:24
In addition to what Eldargal says, there's a three-masted slave barque depicted right on the Ravager box. So yeah.

Spetulhu
17-10-2011, 00:12
The other thing about a very large vehicle is that.. it generally can take more resource than several smaller vehicles. There's always a tradeoff between quantity and quality in issues like this, and the determining factor is always going to be what suits the purposes of the force at hand, not what "seems logical" to an individual.

Also deep down I suspect that the DE simply don't *need* a superheavy analogued.

What you need and what you want is not necessarily the same thing either. I remember Ferdinand Porsche was very upset at the Nazi high command for wasting time and resources on Tiger tanks when one could build two or four lesser but equally lethal tanks with the same resources.

Sure, the sensible Archon will keep doing his raids in the well-proven lightning strike fashion. But the real megalomaniacs may well wish to have something big, fast and stupidly overloaded with guns. Not because it's practical or logical, but because they can. And the huge slave transport does make sense - the raiders are troop transports, what sense is there in slave raids if you can only take as many slaves as you lost soldiers?

Codsticker
17-10-2011, 04:30
Ok, this thread is getting a little out of control at the moment. Its gotten down to name calling and petty bickering. Just slightly OT. Lets just calm down before the mods get involved.

Indeed...

In the other you have Stonerhino and illiteracy


Please don't make these sort of comments- try to be civil.

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad

Lord-Caerolion
17-10-2011, 04:38
Sure, the sensible Archon will keep doing his raids in the well-proven lightning strike fashion. But the real megalomaniacs may well wish to have something big, fast and stupidly overloaded with guns. Not because it's practical or logical, but because they can. And the huge slave transport does make sense - the raiders are troop transports, what sense is there in slave raids if you can only take as many slaves as you lost soldiers?

Wait, there are Dark Eldar that aren't megalomaniacs?:p

Panther Al
17-10-2011, 05:40
In addition to what Eldargal says, there's a three-masted slave barque depicted right on the Ravager box. So yeah.

I could very easily see something the size of that barge done up by Forgeworld. But lets get Superheavy out of the lexicon shall we? How about SuperSized?

Granted that all I have read on the DE says that the Egotistical Nature of the Race has been dialed up to 11+, so doing up a SuperSized barge - less for combat effectiveness and more for showing who has the biggest... erm, Barge makes perfect sense. In fact, wouldn't be surprised if there was a constant race to build the biggest and baddest for the bragging rights, with some of the cast offs being used to support the larger raiding forces.


Now if FW built that three masted monster in the background, I just might have to pick up the DE as an army to use it as a centre piece.

madd0ct0r
17-10-2011, 09:25
How about the origional term -War Engine?

and the proper game size for such things: epic

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/archive/rules/epic/raiders.html

That's the link for the NetEA Dark Elder list. Predates the new codex by a few years. Some of the artwork and ideas has since come out through GW, but after all, Phil Kelly has a copy of this book ;)

Dark Elder can field War Engines:
Vessels of Pain, Barges of Pleasure, Stalk titans, coloseum beast ect.
all there, all capable of keeping up with a raider. (expcept the beast - He squeezes out of a WWP)