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DeathMetal4tw
16-10-2011, 00:52
I'm starting with this thread under the assumption that the newest chaos codex is at least mostly crap and some things need to change. If you think the army is fine as normal, feel free to stop reading.

I want to use this thread to list changes I want to see in the 5/6 edition codex. Anyone feel free to add or comment.

-Cultists: They were awesome in the dawn of war computer game, they existed for one chapter in the 3rd edition codex, and to me they're just plain awesome. Space marines have scouts, and we should get a swarmier, cheaper unit in kind.

-Chaos Scouts or traitor guardsmen: If we get something like this I's still be happy.

-Reliable Possessed squads.

-Some kind of skimmer/flyer. It seems by now that everyone has one.



UPDATE:

The following have been demanded by many people. The fans have spoken.

-There must be some sort of chaos cultist equivalent. Such a unit would be cheaper and more expendable than space marines and would either represent everyday humans driven to fanaticism or imperial guardsmen turned towards chaos. In short, we're sick of using a pure MEQ army.

-Cult marines should NOT be handed out as troops, this makes no sense and is aesthetically/story wise not very pleasing at all. To use cult marines as troops you should have to unlock them with a marked lord or something similar.

-Make possessed a good unit again.

Ulrig
16-10-2011, 01:40
I want many things but this is what is most important...a new look.

Less stupid spikey/horned armour. Its absolutely retarded that if you go traitor and swear to an evil god, they in return hand you a stupid looking hat for joining their little club.

grey knights rock
16-10-2011, 02:02
what annoys me about chaos is all the little details on the armour that you have to paint. It takes a long time because I feel like every khorne berzerker is a ******* HQ.

I like my silver skulls because the armour is so much easier to have a simple yet cool looking paint job. some people may like this, but I am not a stellar painter. I just want an easy, cool paint job. Its hard to get that with chaos.

AmKhaibitu
16-10-2011, 02:03
More options and less rolling the dice to determine how bad units are.
That's how simple it is.

MajorWesJanson
16-10-2011, 02:05
Cultists/traitor guard type unit. Cannon Fodder, Daemon summoning bait, that sort of unit.
Move Cult units into Elite. Leave CSM and Cultists as troops.
Make posessed a model upgrade like Wulfen became.
Highly customizable lord- Options to make undivided, Marked, or into a Warsmith, Talonmaster, or Dark Apostle. Each makes a certain type of unit troops- Marked makes their cult units into troops. Unmarked can take basic Terminators as troops. Warsmith makes Havocs troops. Talonmaster does that to Raptors. Dark Apostle makes Daemons troops.
Special wargear options based on type of lord.
Remove Greater Daemons entirely. Let Lesser Daemons take marks.
Add Hell Blade and Hell Talon as bomber and fighter.
Let Defilers and Dreadnoughts take marks, and give wargear options based on that.
Dreadclaw drop pod as DT.
Cult Terminators if you take a matching marked Lord.
Remake Thousand Sons unit into Rubric Marines that have Sorcerer as leader and otherwise work like Servitors with mindlock.
Sorcerer can take marks with specific powers. Tzeentch is most powerful. Use Psychic Mastery levels like GKs. Let Khorne have Slave Sorcerers who main purpose is countering other psykers.

Mannimarco
16-10-2011, 02:07
A complete crossover of the FW Chaos stuff. You want more characters? They're in there, you want LATD? They're in there, you want more daemon engines? They're in there.

Legions! This "yo ho ho a pirates life for me" where Death Guard hang out with World Eaters and are led into battle by a Slaaneshi daemon prince has grown stale.

The reintegration of daemons with the caveat that if you take a pure daemon army all base invulnerable saves are at +1 to represent how the daemons are being sustained by the warp rift that brought them here in the first place. Daemon + marines dont get the +1 invulnerable save as they are just being summoned by the marines and not popping up from an already Chaos saturated area.

Daemon Primarchs: Hear me out, there once was a time when we could argue "you cant have a primarch because of of their fluff! it would be an IWIN". Well nowadays we have characters whose fluff has them fighting whole armes for days on end and stomping around the Warp burning a God and levelling daemonic cities and carving up daemon Primarchs like a thanksgiving roast and they have models who dont follow their fluff. If you can have Draigo I want Mortarion. Just saying ;)

All Cing Eye
16-10-2011, 02:37
Make posessed a model upgrade like Wulfen became.

Highly customizable lord- Options to make undivided, Marked, or into a Warsmith, Talonmaster, or Dark Apostle. Each makes a certain type of unit troops- Marked makes their cult units into troops. Unmarked can take basic Terminators as troops. Warsmith makes Havocs troops. Talonmaster does that to Raptors. Dark Apostle makes Daemons troops.

These are 2 of the best ideas I've heard in all these types of threads.

Knifeparty
16-10-2011, 03:48
what annoys me about chaos is all the little details on the armour that you have to paint. It takes a long time because I feel like every khorne berzerker is a ******* HQ.

I like my silver skulls because the armour is so much easier to have a simple yet cool looking paint job. some people may like this, but I am not a stellar painter. I just want an easy, cool paint job. Its hard to get that with chaos

The opposite of this, I want the most rediculously ornate armour ever. All finecast so it can bring out all the details. I want it so ornate it hurts your eyes to look at it. Just my oppinion of course :angel:

Finecast boxes of 5 for Emperors children, World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons.

Terminators to be redone...well, with more than 0 lightning claws.

Nurgling Chieftain
16-10-2011, 06:00
HQ
Each Greater Daemon
Chaos Lord: Take a mark, making that cult Troops, or take one of: Infiltrate (& Chosen become Troops), Demagogue (units within 6" are fearless), Terror (some sort of morale penalty to enemy, maybe Raptors become Troops), Servo-arm, or Uniter (all cults are Troops)
Daemon Prince: Wings are 60 points (i.e. standard for subsequent codexes and make DP's no longer quite so default a choice)
Nerf Lash.

Elite
Move cults here
Thousand sons: go back to two wounds
Noise marines: maybe just drop the points costs
Make possessed worth bothering with
Make dreadnoughts "crazed" rule more beneficial (not more sane!) like it used to be

Troops
Cultists! Cheap disposable hordes of cultists!
Lesser daemons can buy marks
NURGLINGS

Fast Attack
Raptors get a special rule or two back at same points cost they are now
Drop bikers to 25 points each
Give spawn their armor save back, and let them come in larger units (10)
Daemonic beasts, perhaps a generic statline plus a mark?

Heavy Support
Cult vehicle upgrades

TimLeeson
16-10-2011, 06:28
A possible good way to go imo would be like how special characters open up certain-builds, except instead of special characters - generic customisable legion specific HQ's, and instead of limited "blah blah takes blah blah as troops" it opens up optional specialised units that only X or Y legion can take.

Model-wise I also think the multi-unit plastic boxset idea would actually work in favour of Chaos legions - for example a deathguard plastic kit could make a few variant builds, same for Thousand Sons and Noise Marines.

SteelTitan
16-10-2011, 08:23
Ow,wow, a chaos wishlist thread again? There must be like two popping up per week. Impressive.

Scammel
16-10-2011, 08:46
Anything that makes them distinctively separate from the loyalists, be it daemon engines, pre-heresy stuff, daemonic upgrades etc.

Oh, and no cultists. There's no way a CSM army shouldn't have CSM making up the majority of the force, and I really can't imagine they'd let mortals fulfill hugely important stealth roles like SM Scouts.

The Warmaster
16-10-2011, 09:27
Make posessed a model upgrade like Wulfen became.
Highly customizable lord- Options to make undivided, Marked, or into a Warsmith, Talonmaster, or Dark Apostle. Each makes a certain type of unit troops- Marked makes their cult units into troops. Unmarked can take basic Terminators as troops. Warsmith makes Havocs troops. Talonmaster does that to Raptors. Dark Apostle makes Daemons troops.

YES, YES, YES.


Remove Greater Daemons entirely. Let Lesser Daemons take marks.

Don't think I support the removal of GDs, but yes for Lesser Daemons having Marks/equivalent upgrades. While I can understand GW wanting to make Daemons and CSM distinct armies, the way they did it practically neutered Summoned Daemons for CSM.


Let Defilers and Dreadnoughts take marks, and give wargear options based on that.

Can I get three types of Tzeentch Dread? (Normal Dread with an Invulnerable save or something, a TS Rubric Dread, and a Sorcerer-Dread?) If so, sounds good to me.

Also, psychic pilots like with GKs could work for Tzeentch, at least if limited to Sorcerer-Dreads and an elite unit's dedicated transport (I'm thinking a sorcerer coven, like the 3rd edition, 2nd Codex Thousand Sons Chosen).


Dreadclaw drop pod as DT.

I think everyone would agree with you on this one.


Remake Thousand Sons unit into Rubric Marines that have Sorcerer as leader and otherwise work like Servitors with mindlock.

This could go both ways, I think. It could work, but from what I can tell, the Rubrics aren't that incapable without a Sorcerer to tell them to point their guns in a certain direction and shoot. Well, at least, not in the timeframes that regular 40K games are set in, where a turn generally covers no more than about 30 seconds of action.

ashc
16-10-2011, 10:02
More chaotic weapon options on many of the basic squads, so that they can play substantially differently from space marines, at the very least.

Many many other things that have been said already. Cultists, dreadclaws, sort out cult armies, complete internal army rebalance across the board, amongst others.

Hrw-Amen
16-10-2011, 10:33
Cultists, possibly not just human ones!

Legions, or at very least legion themed armies.

Dreadclaw Drop Pods.

Ability to have more Daemons / marine / cultist mix like in the fluff.

Less spikes and skulls.

Some of the FW stuff in the codex like other armies seem to have recently.

Morkash
16-10-2011, 10:37
Combine Wes' and Mannimarco's ideas...ZING, you got an codex worthy of containing Chaos.

blackcherry
16-10-2011, 10:57
A consideration for both those that want a themed list and the tournament players. They ruined this edition of the codex.

A return to the focus on the legions.

A few more chaotic things. Not random things.

A bit more customization of lists.

Good internal and external balance.

A return of fun to the list.

Matt ward to keep his paws off it.

For GW to keep to a set theme on codexs. The current book is only the way it is because a certain theme was decided, then abandoned.

I could go on all day :p

Excessus
16-10-2011, 11:11
Is it this time of the month already? :)

Carlosophy
16-10-2011, 11:52
2 Words: Matt Ward.

Chaos *should* be Grey Knights + Blood Angels x Daemons.

All the wonky fluff the other marines had would be seen as rather normal for Chaos who have the Timey Wimey Warpy Twarpy stuff on their side.

Overblown fluff, highly competitive army list coupled with Legion-specific characters and dafter special rules.

ashc
16-10-2011, 13:00
It's going to be Phil Kelly.

Hiddenhaddock
16-10-2011, 13:09
Something akin to the Space Marine Chapter Traits for the different Marks. I'll try to explain, so bear with.

If your Lord is say, Khornate, then units not normally able to be marked can now take the Mark of Khorne. More dedicated units (those who can take a Mark regardless) get an improved benefit from their Mark.

This in itself rewards monotheistic play, without ruling out polytheistic armies. Just like Space Marines, if you have two HQ's with differing Marks, you just have to decide which applies.

Could also go some with Posessed. Got a Tzeentch Lord? Roll on the Tzeentch Table and so on.

Sinnertje
16-10-2011, 13:33
Every time I see the title of this thread this image pops into my head...

A picket line made up of various CSM, holding signs with some kind of Daemon Prince yelling;

"WHAT DO WE WANT FOR CHAOS?!?!"

"more shooty..."

"WHEN DO WE WANT IT?!"

"nooow"

Okuto
16-10-2011, 17:35
I shall offer the blood of battle sisters, skulls of deatomized/bolter shot nids, smurf praises for matt ward to write the chaos marine codex......

I'll even take the craptastic fluff with with it.....just grant my favorite army power.....

Gorbad Ironclaw
16-10-2011, 17:41
The biggest thing I'd like to see in a Chaos Space Marine book would be proper marks and cults. Everything should have the option of being marked with either a "generic" mark of one of the gods, or being from each gods cult legion and the two should be different. It would be nice to see the Legions represented by more than a tactical squad.

Oh, and make the Thousand Sons actually worthwhile. I'm sure eventually it's going to happen.


Then I'd make a different book for LotD with a bunch of demon engines and what not in, but that's a different topic really.

Warsmith Tharak
16-10-2011, 17:43
I want:

Mark: Most unit entry can bye a mark for x pts. This is different form squad to squad (Mark of Nurgel is cheaper on terminators than on troops). Mark of Khorne gives furius charge, +1 to ws and attack. Nurgel gives feel no pain, blight grenades, -1 int, + 1 T. and so on and so forth... Those that dont bye a mark of one god have mark of chaos undivided as 3.5.

HQ: bring back the old daemonweapons and mutations. I would like to see a system to unlock diffrent things like for 25 pts your comander have alot of terminators/bikes/rapors at his disposal and they are now troops. Diffrent points cost for different unlockable. Eternal warrior for the chosen of the gods. Psycik powers that oozes power, make them on par or better than space wolf. At least 2 etch for 3 of the gods and 6 that everybody can use. Daemon prince in the 250 pts level with powers to match.

Elite: Possessed that are more like 3.5 with a point shuffel. Pay the points for any upgrades you like.

Terminators: Some Veteran skills as an option.

Chosen: Alot of veteran skills as a option. Power weapon as a special weapon chose, Power Fist as heavy in addition to range weapons. Up to 3 special and 2 heavy.

Dreadnought: Make it sane with an optional upgrade "insane" (around 10 pts +1 A, 3.5 table).

Troop: Chaos space marines: as now but if it is not marked by one of the gods, they can bye infeltrate for 3 pts.

Daemons: Copy paste the daemon book troops.

Fast: Bikes must be cheeper.

Raptors: Bring back hit and run. 3 special weapons per squad.

Daemon engine: A new one , or sevral. Not blight drone or any from forge world.

Spawn: Drop to 20 pts and give it feel no pain. 1-5 per squad

Heavy support: Obliterators: as they are.

Havoc: price redused weapons, can bye tank hunters. Converser beamers as a new weapon choyse.

Predators: Price reductions and a new pattern.

Vindicator: Is it in line with lojalist? If not get it in line

Daemon engins: more. Defiler + sevrlal new ones. Not forge world but brand new.

Land raider: Bring back infernal device. 2 New pattern. One with alot of transport capasity. One with more weapons but lower capasity than the normal.

Transports: Rhino: as it is

Dreadclaw: As drop pod.

Tank upgrade: Bring back all from 3.5, and add new ones. For instans: Daemon shell for predator: Autocannon becomes blast.


Since most units are markeble, We now have cult terminators, havocs and everything else. We can have terminators as troop without bye abbadon (or Claus the despoiler warlord of the dark knight counts as abbadon).

Give us new weapons for infantery and tanks. Some teckpriest have been around since the Heresy and knows how to make converser beamers, and all the other have made new things. Give us more freaky weapons like the sonic weapons.

But balance it all so we end up with a tire 2 codex with five or more builds that are tire 2...

Scammel
16-10-2011, 17:45
People willing to sacrifice the soul of the book to Ward to gain more power? How wonderfully chaotic.

Okuto
16-10-2011, 17:53
Indeed! For too long they have been following those silly slannesh followers into battle. For too long have my cultists been sitting on the sidelines. For too long us chaos players have waited. Only that silly man by the name of matt ward can save our beloved chaos marines regardless of his dubious nature....

But seriously I want the gloory days of 3.5 back....if we are truely the "big bad guy" of the universe we certainly don't act it. My dark eldar make my chaos marines look like boy scouts.

So everyone go out and collect battle sister heads...they know he hates them..maybe that will appease him and he'll write our book

DeathMetal4tw
16-10-2011, 19:36
I think if there's a common thread amongst at least half of us, it's the desire for CULTIST TROOPS :D

We can't be ignored if we really get psyched over this. The powers that be need to have some idea about what we want.

Now that we've all decided we want cultists, how do we think such a unit should behave?

Almost certainly we're talking about something weaker than a space marine. But is this some sort of traitor guardsman with a lasgun? A melee/short range oriented MEQ with a weak pistol and a close combat weapon?

What would your cultists do?

Warsmith Tharak
16-10-2011, 19:44
Die in droves... Give them "cultist weapon" str 2 range 18 ap -. Save -. Pts 2-3.
Make them upgradeble. +X pts you can increase save/WS/BS/S/T and better gun.

They are chaos. They should be everything you can imagin times 10. Some are powerful close combet goatmen, some cannon fodder, some are elites (for puny humans). Alot of options, like the rest of the codex chaos legions...

Nurgling Chieftain
16-10-2011, 19:46
They had perfectly good cultists in an ancient 3rd edition white dwarf. Basically cheaper conscripts with worse armor, laspistol&CCW, a few weapon options, a sergeant with a few options, and an icon (perhaps the most important part of the unit in any edition).

ashc
16-10-2011, 20:05
With regard to cultists, I am surprised we didn't see them after the success of Dawn of War and still hope for them.

Chainaxe07
16-10-2011, 20:28
Well, i for one would love to see less demon princes ( and a less minotaur model for them too, please), more powerful (and durable) lords (sorcerers may stay as are now) and have marks be armywide. If you want to go renegade/undivided, you should have no access/very lmited access to certain units, but get dirt cheap renegades or udivided legionaries. Marked armies should just get marked troops and vehicles, with at least one demon engine (a new one, not possessed predators etc etc) per mark and new armywyde rules. A flyer would be welcome too. Don really care about cultists, but, as we mainly play apocalypse, we can have them anyway (we call them traior guard).That's my 2 cents

Bonzai
16-10-2011, 20:30
I. New Units

HQ
1. More customization for Chaos Lords.

2. New Special Characters. Specifically a Word Bearer, Night Lord, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warror characters (So we get one for each legion basicaly).

3. Greater Summoned Daemons no longer 0-1.

Elites
1. Chosen get +1 attack as they are veterans, and can lose infiltrate and can take Jump Packs or Bikes.

2. Possessed get grenades and rending base with a point reduction.

3. Chaos Churgeons. 3 for one FOC. Gives unit FNP.

4. Dark Mechanum Tech Priest. 3 for one FOC. Can repair vehicles and have servitors.

5. Current Cult troops are moved to the Elite slot.

Troops

1. Cultists: guard stats, infiltrate, can take an icon and some assualt weapons.

2. Lesser Summoned Daemons can now deep strike any where.

Dedicated Transports

1. Dreadclaws or Drop pods.

2. Land Raiders can be taken as a designated transport.

Fast Attack

1. Spawn lose Slow and Purposeful, and gain the ability to come in from reserve and replace one of your models near an icon.

2. A fast, open topped transport.

Heavy

1. Defilers get an option to upgrade to AV13 front and side armor.

2. Obliterators get eternal warrior now that they are considered Daemons.


II. Legion Rules

Each Legion gets a special rule and some restrictions as to what they can take. They also get special units, which are essentially modified versions of other units, and some FOC shuffling. Chaos players are free not to use the Legion rules. They simply don't have any restrictions or bonuses in their choices.

1. Black Legion
Special Rules: None
Restrictions: None
Custom Units: None
Varient FOC: Black Legion may also field Berzerkers, 1K sons, Plague Marines, or Noise Marines as troops.
Special Character: Abaddon

Word Bearers
Special Rules: +1 to all reserve rolls on Daemons. Greater summoned Daemons can replace any model in an icon unit.
Restrictions: Can onlt take units with icons/marks of Chaos Glory
Custom Units: Dark Apostle: Replaces Chaos Sorcerers. Has various support powers.
Varient FOC: Possessed can be taken as troops.
Special Character: Thinking Erebus or Argel Tal

Night Lords
Special Rules: Acute Senses. Hit and run.
Restrictions: Can only take Icons/marks of Chaos Glory
Custom Units: A retinue of chosen for the Chaos Lord. Infiltrate, hit and run, +1 initiative. Can take jump packs without losing Infiltrate.
Varient FOC: Raptors count as troops
Special Character: Sevatar

Iron Warriors
Special Rules: Tank Hunter
Restrictions: Can only take icons/marks of Chaos united.
Custom Units: Warsmith replaces Chaos Lord
Varient FOC: Obliterators can be Elites.
Special Character: Some one new.

Alpha Legion
Special Rules: Infiltrate
Restrictions: Can only take icons/marks Chaos united.
Custom Units: Insurgents replace Cultists. Have the option to take IG style heavy weapon platforms.
Varient FOC: Chosen are scoring.
Special Character: Alpharious... No really, he told me he was.

World Eaters
Special Rules: Counter Assault
Restrictions: Can only take Icons/marks of Korne
Custom Units: Berserker dreadnought that replaces standard dread. AV13, blood claw style attacks, has fleet and rage.
Varient FOC: Berserkers may be taken as troops.
Special Character: Karn

1k Sons
Special Rules: Masters of Sorcery: Get +1 on psychic tests to over come psychic hoods, and never have to roll more than two dice on psychic tests.
Restrictions: Can only take icons/marks of Tzeentch
Custom Units: Rubic Terminators and Librarian Dreads
Varient FOC: 1k sons count as troops
Special Character: Arhiman

Death Guard
Special Rules: All shooting attacks count as poisoned (4+)
Restrictions: Can only take icons/marks of Nurgle
Custom Units: Plague zombies. Replaces cultists. Lose infiltrate, all ranged weapons, gain FNP, Fearless.
Varient FOC: Plague Marines may be taken as troops.
Special Character: Typhus

Emperor's Children
Special Rules: Fleet
Restrictions: may only take Icons/marks of Slaanesh
Custom Units: Normal marines may take Noise weapons
Varient FOC: Noise Marines count as troops.
Special Character: Lucious

*Huron and Bile are still around, just considered independant.

a1elbow
16-10-2011, 21:01
Lords determine FOrg (i.e. Nurgle Mark makes Deathguard troops, other cult troops are Elite). Unmarked lords can be designated as Legion lords, like Night Lord or Iron Warrior

-All(most) troops may be designated (unmarked chosen of a NL Lord can be NL).
-Chosen can get abilities associated with Cult troops (Nurgle Chosen get FnP, etc)
-Drop Pods for squads
-marks for Vehicles
-more Psychic powers, including much longer list for Tzeentch

Some ideas for legion specific:

I'd rather they avoided too many vet skill type things and stick with FO changes and free FO slots

Iron Warriors:
Full squads may take Servo Arm on Champion, if they do so they may take a HS vehicle instead of a DT

Night Lords:
Reserve controls for both sides, scatter control for DS, morale effects

Alpha Legion:
cultists in list, more infiltrating and outflanking

Word Bearers:
Librarian gets Legion specific Power that summons Daemons held in reserve directly onto the board.

Deathguard:
I'd like to see Deathguard not have a DT option in the troop slot, but get a FA Deathguard choice with a DT. Also, Deathguard should have relentless when not in a vehicle at start of turn. Lots of options (vehicle and ICs) for Nurgle's Rot to give creeping death feel to army

1k Sons:
obviously Psyker heavy with both Buff and targeting Psychic powers (so 1k Son upgrade champion may buff unit to be better than automatons)

Emperor's Children:
Noise Marines get some decent combat options so they take advantage or higher I and more Sonic Weaponry for Marked ICs and vehicles

World Eaters:
Rhinos become assault vehicles when Marked, but maybe become open topped or just expensive

ashc
16-10-2011, 21:40
Swapping FO is not cool in my book, and was one of the more abusable things in the old codex.

a1elbow
16-10-2011, 21:45
Swapping FO is not cool in my book, and was one of the more abusable things in the old codex.

Swapping FO is a great way to get more diversity in lists. The problem is when it isn't playtested and gets tossed in as an ability recklessly.

Rogzor87
16-10-2011, 21:57
I just want chaos to be able to run an all Terminator List. Oh and to Bring back the goodness of Iron Warriors.

Nurgling Chieftain
16-10-2011, 22:02
Swapping FO is not cool in my book, and was one of the more abusable things in the old codex.Clearly everything should just be Troops in the first place, then. :wtf: :confused:

ashc
16-10-2011, 22:04
Clearly everything should just be Troops in the first place, then. :wtf: :confused:

:confused: No idea what you mean by that. If in reference to cults/marked troops, I have no problems with elites to become troops if your chaos lord has the same mark or whatnot, but trading a fast attack for an extra heavy support, or as suggested, playing iron warriors gives you a heavy as a dedicated transport(!) is just silly.

a1elbow
16-10-2011, 22:08
:confused: No idea what you mean by that. If in reference to cults/marked troops, I have no problems with elites to become troops if your chaos lord has the same mark or whatnot, but trading a fast attack for an extra heavy support, or as suggested, playing iron warriors gives you a heavy as a dedicated transport(!) is just silly.

I guess Iron Warriors should just get stuck with taking Lascannon Warrior squads?

Increase the cost of the Pred or Vindicator* or charge a tax to do it, but it is better than what an Iron Warrior army amounts to currently.

A 200 pt squad with a 100+ point vehicle wouldn't work out to be balanced, but at the point that this is costing you a little more it isn't as bad.

ashc
16-10-2011, 22:15
No, they shouldn't be stuck with taking Lascannon Warrior squads, how about they actually work as a normal army and use all the other unit options in the army book? bunker-busters with multimeltas, assault troops, summoned daemons to storm the trenches.

It's having 1-dimensional views of the Legions that led to them completely scrapping them in the first place, and leaving us with a crippled army book.

a1elbow
16-10-2011, 22:22
No, they shouldn't be stuck with taking Lascannon Warrior squads, how about they actually work as a normal army and use all the other unit options in the army book? bunker-busters with multimeltas, assault troops, summoned daemons to storm the trenches.

It's having 1-dimensional views of the Legions that led to them completely scrapping them in the first place, and leaving us with a crippled army book.

No, it's having no view of Legions that led to the current book because they didn't write this book to make Legion based armies. The stuff you just suggested you can already do with the current codex.

ashc
16-10-2011, 22:24
Of course you can, the troops section of the book is about the only thing that's nearly right with it, but why do you think the only thing you can field for iron warriors are lascannon squads?

Nurgling Chieftain
16-10-2011, 23:01
If in reference to cults/marked troops, I have no problems with elites to become troops if your chaos lord has the same mark or whatnot...Okay, but that's the big thing when people talk about FO swapping.


...but trading a fast attack for an extra heavy support...I was always startled at how much venom that particular ability attracted. From three... To four. Yay? Having Obliterators as Elites was a much, much bigger deal, as it effectively gave you an extra 3! Many armies have ways to get extras of things in the heavy support section.


...or as suggested, playing iron warriors gives you a heavy as a dedicated transport(!) is just silly.I could see that if it's a Land Raider. But a predator or vindicator as a "dedicated transport" would just be silly.

Asher
16-10-2011, 23:31
It's going to be Phil Kelly.

Despite all the hate he gets, I'd rather have Matt Ward writing it. His background writing is questionable but in the rules departement he has done a good job so far.

Also Ward has written a lot of the 5th ed. codices and allmost all the recent ones were also done by him. The should have a better grasp at the current state of the game than Kelly (at least in theory).

Nurgling Chieftain
16-10-2011, 23:49
I don't want Ward writing anything at all. His recent codicies have been neither internally nor externally balanced. Whatever Kelly's past sins, the Dark Eldar codex is one of the most balanced ever written (mandrakes aside).

And frankly, balance is IMPORTANT. Very important. For FUN. The game is more fun when people can take a wide variety of armies on relatively equal footing. The game is more fun when building a competitive list is about synergy rather than about just throwing in as many of the obviously best units available as you have points and slots for.

Voss
16-10-2011, 23:54
I think if there's a common thread amongst at least half of us, it's the desire for CULTIST TROOPS :D

I think thats the exact problem. There isn't enough of a common thread to go one way or another, and any direction picked is going to alienate at least half the audience. Its very much in the spirit of chaos, but its a problem for actually writing a codex.


Based on the reactions to the current book, I think the main thing it needs is to not be dull. There should be no 'no-brainer' choices and no obviously stupid choices (like chaos spawn), or even borderline choices that are written off by 80% of the audience, or those who feel they _have_ to take them to fit a theme.

Also, squads dedicated to a god need to not forget that fact if the standard bearer catches a bullet. Stupid, stupid design.

ChrisAsmadi
17-10-2011, 00:21
I'd like to see mixing cult troops in an army limited to only armies led by Abaddon, and mixing marks limited to armies led by Undivided Lords (or the special character equivilents, like Huron).

Don't take one of those? One mark + undivided only.

I'd also like to see Cult HQ choices, eg:

Khorne could have a Lone Wolf style solo character who hit like a truck in hand to hand, Nurgle would have a tough infantryman with a choice between a souped up gun or a manreaper, Slannesh would have a guy with noise weaponry and morale based abilities.

Obviously, there'd be no need for a Tzeentch one, since it'd just be the same as a Marked Sorcerer.

ashc
17-10-2011, 05:32
Anecdotal evidence, but still:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=239188

Also, looks like its a while off, and not in development as such if this is anything to go by.

Malefic7m
17-10-2011, 19:22
No, they shouldn't be stuck with taking Lascannon Warrior squads, how about they actually work as a normal army and use all the other unit options in the army book? bunker-busters with multimeltas, assault troops, summoned daemons to storm the trenches.

It's having 1-dimensional views of the Legions that led to them completely scrapping them in the first place, and leaving us with a crippled army book.


I don't want Ward writing anything at all. His recent codicies have been neither internally nor externally balanced. Whatever Kelly's past sins, the Dark Eldar codex is one of the most balanced ever written (mandrakes aside).

And frankly, balance is IMPORTANT. Very important. For FUN. The game is more fun when people can take a wide variety of armies on relatively equal footing. The game is more fun when building a competitive list is about synergy rather than about just throwing in as many of the obviously best units available as you have points and slots for.

These sum up my reasoning for my wishes.

I'm all for Cult-marines in ELITE, unlocked to TROOP by a HQ (like in 3.5) and I would also like more (modelling) options and possessed that are usable in the game.

I want Daemon Prince to be 0-1, and likewise for Raptors and Obliterators. I'd really like Obliterators to be ELITE and the dreadnought HEAVY - to distinguish both from the loyalists and fit better with the 3.5-fluff.

*) (were Obliterators-cults are hired, while dreadnoughts are poor sods who are tormented inside a combat-coffin. I actually used to 'taunt' my SM-opponent with putting his casualties inside it if it got 'destroyed'.

I want buffs, but not all over. I really want balance more than power, but it would be nice to at least be able to compete with the [excellent-unit without drawbacks]-spam lists, it would seem the Ward-codeci are a particular contender for.

Cultists!! The best would be if they could have lots of options, for sneaky weaklings/ccw-crazies/plague zombies/regular expendables ... fallen IG as ELITES (unlock 1 HEAVY and/or Rough Riders

I'd like the Vindicator and most newer equipment to belong to the Renegades, who should also have landspeeders 0-1).

I do want Chaos Icons, for summoning or other stuff, but I do not want them to make my elite (but egotistical/non-brainwashed) marines' morale dependent upon the icon-carrier's health. Abilities other than daemon-summoning could be minor one's, like a 5+ cover save or re-rolls to terrain-checks.

Raptors 0-1 and back with three specials, warp scream (-1 ld) and 'furious assault'. Renegades can have the regular assault marines.


Chosen more like in 3.5, but with obligatory vet-skills! Fearless.

Possessed need something radical done. In 3.5 I made some plain possessed berzerkers to use against the orks. Not highly competitive, but neither was the orks, or the player that insisted that more bikers would do the trick, if they were only painted red... :D:cool:

Crazy dreadnought torture chamber! A unit for fun and stuff. Fielding one grants a 'foresight' ability against other marines (like the eldar were you get to move a unit post-deployment)? As we stuff loyalist marines in there...

I like Chaos Marines to have a different approach to battle than Space Marines. I'd like us to be sneakier, with smaller warbands and not so much FAST ATTACK. In 3.5 I always fielded less marines than my Space Marine opponent, but got help from deamons (and vet skils shaved some points as well).

--------------------------
Extended modeling options backed by rules (armory/unit-upgrades)
Different Marks, not unlike the cult Troops (dependent upon HQ)
No opposite Cult Troops, unless Undivided Lord

HQ - 0-1 Daemon Prince, 0-1 Chaos Lord, 0-1 Chaos Luitenant, 0-2 Sorcerors

ELITE - Cult Troops, Obilterators, Chosen/Chosen Terminators, Renegade Imperial Guardsmen, 0-1 Imperial Guard Veterans, Possessed

TROOPS - Chaos Marines, lesser daemons (God-spesific for marked HQ), cultist/idiots/beastment/plaguezombies/sneakies(infiltrators)/crazy assaulters/etc

FAST - 0-1 Raptors, Chaos Spawn, Chaos Bikers, DreadClaw

HEAVY - Land Raider, Predator, Defiler, Havocs (vet skills!), Obliterators, Dreadnought

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS: the Ubiquitous Rhino

Erazmus_M_Wattle
17-10-2011, 20:39
I'd like all chaos marines to be stubborn. It's not quite ATSKNF but it shouldn't be. But they should be running away like spineless cowards either.

I don't mind my dreadnoughts being insane. However, I had a game yesterday where my one dread fire frenzied every turn for the first three turns and really ruined my plan. For such a major draw back I got no benefit. It's a bit irritating that a furioso gets a huge benefit with no draw back. Blood talons.

Different units unlocked as troops is a great idea. Havocs for my iron warriors. Brilliant.

Cultists. I've said this before but they really should be like inquisitor henchmen. A unit you could make as cultists, alpha legion agents, mutants, beastmen, raw marine recruits in powerarmour (ala blood claws) dark mechanicus and even servitors. Chaos aliens even. That would give the flexibility to please everyone.

Transports that can carry up to twenty marines would be good. More types of daemon engines. More archaic weapons for havocs. Conversion beamers and other craziness. Any chance we could have multi meltas and plasma cannons? Even though hand held ones are illustrated in the current book even though we don't get them. Odd?

I really hope Mr Kelly reads this thread.

ashc
17-10-2011, 20:44
I really hope Mr Kelly reads this thread.

The thread is like writing your Christmas list for Santa. Phil won't be reading it.

Mojaco
17-10-2011, 20:58
bunch of awesome
Everything he said. And Ahriman should completely dominate Njal.

OldMan
17-10-2011, 21:41
Do you think that The Forge should be expanded upon?
It is mentioned in codex deamons as a place in Ware neutral an inependent from gods, where soul grinders came from. It reflects ( i guess) fears and belives about machines and technology.

This opens some space for warsmiths and dark mechanicus. Like mark of forge for warsmith only (call it a pact), making him a psyker with some unique powers. The warsmith would allow same deamon-machines - infernal cannons, deamons enslaved by means of forbidden technology, etc. You know, te usuall chaos dwarf tricks.

DeeKay
17-10-2011, 21:54
Chaos wishlist time! Yay! I'm not kidding, I love these things!

HQ:
More variety and customization for basic HQ choices.
Maybe even a Lieutenant slot, possibly 1-3 per slot ala Sanguinary Priests.
Eternal Warrior for SC's. Come on, they've been fighting for 10000 years, they need to have something that suggests they could live that long!

Elites:
Make Dreads worth taking again!
Possessed need to improve, but I'm not sure what would benefit them without reverting to the best obvious choice, like the 3.5 book.
Chosen should be kinda like Wolf Guard in terms of customizability, perhaps even having an upgraded statline and/or access to USR's to better show their elite status.

Troops:
Lose seperate statlines for Cult units. I'll explain later.
A cheap Cultist meatshield. Maybe something along the lines of the Tyrant's Legion for rules? (Cultist unit suffers casualties if CSM unit passes cover saves.)

Fast Attack:
Slightly cheaper bikes.
Make Raptors into something other than Assault Marines with claws. Maybe re-introduce Daemonic Visage type rules?
Maybe some Daemon engine to fill a gap?

Heavy Support:
More variety for Obliterator weapons
A new Daemon engine?
Everything else seems okay.

Daemons:
Let them take Marks!
Chaos Spawn should be cheaper, or at least have access to FNP, an Invuln save or something like that.

Misc:
Instead of having seperate stats for different marks, allow for favours (little stat boosts, like +1A for Khorne) that anyone may access, or full blown marks (For Khorne, +1 WS and Furious Charge, maybe with Rage as well) but these Marked units are 0-1 unless the most expensive HQ has the appropriate mark. Have this system accessible to all non-vehicle units and you have the option of fielding Legion forces without SC's dominating the FOC as well as allowing for some crossover into unthemed lists.

A clearer definition of what it is to be daemonic would be nice, but I think that this should be a possible USR.

With regards,
Dan.

DeathMetal4tw
19-10-2011, 19:29
It would be good if threads like this could spread like tumors across all kinds of 40k forums. The players cannot be ignored en masse.

Let's solidify and amend our demands as chaos enthusiasts:

-There must be some sort of chaos cultist equivalent. Such a unit would be cheaper and more expendable than space marines and would either represent everyday humans driven to fanaticism or imperial guardsmen turned towards chaos. In short, we're sick of using a pure MEQ army.

-Cult marines should NOT be handed out as troops, this makes no sense and is aesthetically/story wise not very pleasing at all. To use cult marines as troops you should have to unlock them with a marked lord or something similar.

-Make possessed a good unit again.

Latro_
19-10-2011, 19:46
Cult armies can be done using the IG codex and some imagination. Having cultists enmass in the csm codex would unbalance it imo. If you dont have them enmass then it aint all that fluffy so...

They could have 'prospects' cultists that have survived the meatgrinder ala last chancers or other nasties who have proven them selves, all eager to get implanted as marines much like scouts, then its just 'chaos scouts'

csm is gonna be a hard job, i dont envy the writer.

AlphariusOmegon20
19-10-2011, 20:25
A complete crossover of the FW Chaos stuff. You want more characters? They're in there, you want LATD? They're in there, you want more daemon engines? They're in there.


LOL you sound like a Prego spaghetti sauce commercial, Marco. :D

I think the biggest change needs to be the Icon system we have now. Icons are great for summoning, but screw you heavily when you depend on them as a replacement for marks.

Integrate a combination system, marks for giving squad abilities and icons for summoning and deep strike purposes.

dangerboyjim
19-10-2011, 21:07
A complete crossover of the FW Chaos stuff. You want more characters? They're in there, you want LATD? They're in there, you want more daemon engines? They're in there.

Legions! This "yo ho ho a pirates life for me" where Death Guard hang out with World Eaters and are led into battle by a Slaaneshi daemon prince has grown stale.

The reintegration of daemons with the caveat that if you take a pure daemon army all base invulnerable saves are at +1 to represent how the daemons are being sustained by the warp rift that brought them here in the first place. Daemon + marines dont get the +1 invulnerable save as they are just being summoned by the marines and not popping up from an already Chaos saturated area.


Yes, yes, yes.

Add in chaos animated zombies, weird things that possess your enemies models and randomly erupting chaos spawn.

Go in a completely different direction and release a great big book of chaos, with legions, traitors, lost and damned and weird shambling chaos hosts built around aspiring champions, that have a chance of warping into something even more horrible right in front of you.

A chaos marine codex and a chaos deamon codex doesn't do it justice.

Mannimarco
19-10-2011, 22:16
Id also like to see the ability to upgrade unit champions to possessed and allow them to purchase some daemonic gifts instead of having to roll on a random table for them.

You can get zombies in the vraks 3 list. Plague marines, renegade guard, plague ogryns and lots of zombies.

Might as well break out this old gem. This is a list of all things Chaotic and current. Theres a massive amount you can do with just crossing all of this over into a "Tome of Chaos" and thats before we even start bringing back all the stuff that used to exist such as the Cannon of Khorne or Cauldron of Blood or bringing in Legion special characters who dont exist yet.

Ok If Im to be stuck with 1 codex to cover the infinite scope and variety that is Chaos then I expect a weighty tome of all things Chaotic. If its related to Chaos its going in the book whether it be daemon, renegade, Legion or LATD. Basically I want this and Id pay good money for it.

Take a CSM and a daemon HQ: your army can contain CSMs and daemons
Take a CSM HQ: your army is made up solely of marines
Take a CSM and LATD HQ: your army is made up of CSMs and LATD
Take a daemon HQ: your army is solely made up of daemons
Take a daemon and LATD HQ: your army is made up of LATD and daemons
Take a LATD HQ: your army is made up solely of LATD

and using this list here to build the army. Ive colour coded it to show the range of options available based on which army you are building with red for marines, pink for daemons and green for LATD.


HQ

Abbadon
Fabius Bile
Huron Blackheart
Typhus
Necrosius
Kharn
Zhufor
Ahriman
Lucius the Eternal
Sorcerer
Chaos Lord
Arkos the Faithless
Daemon Prince
Kugath the Plaguefather
Skarbarnd the Exile One
Fateweaver the Oracle of Tzeentch
Keeper of Secrets
Great Unclean One
Bloodthirster
Lord of Change
The Masque
Epidemius
The Blue Scribes
Skulltaker
herald of Khorne
herald of Slaanesh
herald of Nurgle
herald of Tzeentch
Mamon
Uraka
Renegade command squad
apostate preachers
enforcers
rogue psykers
fire support squad (as codex guard)
anti tank squad (as codex guard)
mortar squad (as codex guard)


ELITE

Chosen Chaos Space Marines
Chaos Terminators
Possessed
Chaos Dreadnought
Fiends of Slaanesh
Flamers of Tzeentch
Bloodcrushers of Khorne
Beasts of Nurgle
Berserker Ogryns
Plague Ogryns
Disciples of Xaphan (kinnda like Blood Pact)

TROOPS

Chaos Space Marines
Khorne Berserkers
Plague Marines
Noise Marines
Rubric Marines
Bloodletters
Daemonettes
Plaguebearers
Pink Horrors
The Changeling
Nurglings
Renegade militia command squad
2-5 renegade militia squads
workers rabble (kinnda like conscripts)
plague zombies
beastmen
renegade armoured fist squads

Fast Attack

bikers
raptors
blight drones
spawn
Flesh Hounds
Karnak the hound of vengeance
Seekers of Slaanesh
Screamers of Tzeentch
Furies
blight drones
Hellhound
Banewolf
Sentinel scout squadron
Salamander scouts

HEAVY SUPPORT

Havoks
obliterators
predators
vindicators
defilers
land raiders
Soul Grinders
Plague Hulks
Blood Slaighterers
Daemon Prince
Heavy weapon platoon (like codex guard)
Sabre gun platforms
Leman Russ
Demolisher
Vanquisher
Exterminator
Conqueror
Thunderer
Destroyer Tank Hunter
Basilisk
Griffon
Medusa Siege Gun
Manticore
Hyrda
Bombard
Earthshaker platform
Hydra Platform
Medusa Platform
Turret Emplacement (twin heavy bolters, heavy flamer, battlecannon, multi laser, lascannon, autocannon, twin autocannons, plasma cannon, plasma destroyer, missle launcher, multi melta, demolisher cannon, vanquisher cannon, inferno cannon

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

Rhino
Land Raider
Dreadclaw
Chimera

Could this be broken in so many ways? Yes it probably could but what cant be? Dont we all want to see our Alpha Legion advancing behind a wave of cultists? Word Bearers to be summoning real daemons? Iron Warriors backed up by LATD tanks and pillboxes? Death Guard and hordes of zombies or plaguebearers? Cultists and Daemons?

Would need to work out a reason to take a mono list as well. Im thinking if you take a mono daemon list you would get +1 to your invulnerable saves to represent your daemons drawing strength from the Warp rift that brought them there, they wouldnt have that level of power if they were summoned directly by marines or cultists.

Minsc
19-10-2011, 22:23
Also Ward has written a lot of the 5th ed. codices and almost all the recent ones were also done by him. The should have a better grasp at the current state of the game than Kelly (at least in theory).

This isn't quite true, is it?

Ward wrote the latest (GK), Kelly wrote the one before that (Dark Eldar), and they've written almost as many 5th Ed. codexes' (3-to-2). I'd say that they both feel "up to date" with the rules.

Personally I start to feel more and more comfortable with Ward's rules, and I like what I've heard so far about the Necrons fluff so far (but it's not 100% that he's the writer of that codex afaik?), but I still prefer Kelly. And eventhough I've finally started warming up to Ward, I'm still annoyed at many things in the GK Codex, and I will always remember him as the guy who single handedly ruined WFB 7th. Ed.

Sorry for the slight offtopic - carry on.

Asher
19-10-2011, 22:33
This isn't quite true, is it?


Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey Knights and now Necrons were done by Matt Ward. There was only one Kelly Codex in between, namely Dark Eldar. Henche my point still stands: Most of the recend codices were done by Ward.

If this gives him any more grip on the game is debatable however. In the end it doesn't matter as long it's not Cruddance, master of internal balance.

Minsc
19-10-2011, 22:36
Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey Knights and now Necrons were done by Matt Ward. There was only one Kelly Codex in between, namely Dark Eldar. Henche my point still stands: Most of the recend codices were done by Ward.

Your point stands, except that you're wrong. ;)
Space Wolves was made by Kelly.


In the end it doesn't matter as long it's not Cruddance, master of internal balance.

Amen.

Asher
19-10-2011, 22:49
Your point stands, except that you're wrong. ;)

I could have sworn that it was Ward's, based on the naming convention and overall sillines. Oh well, I stand corrected; it's just 3:2 for Ward.

Well, I wonder what this bodes for Chaos, given some of Kelly's more controversal decisions about pricing of units.

crandall87
19-10-2011, 22:53
I want chaos marks to give squads flavours rather than just a +1 to one of their stats, for example: Mark of Slaanesh to give access to sonic weapons.

I also want to see Cultists and at least one more daemon engine!

Lornak Bloodgreed
19-10-2011, 23:39
Here's MY vision of a Codex: Chaos Legions

Wargear

Armor
Cultist Armor
Power Armor
Terminator Armor
Daemon Armor

Ranged
Bolt Gun
Bolt Pistol
Heavy Bolter
Flamer
Hand-Flamer
Heavy Flamer
Melta Gun
Melta Pistol
Multi-Melta Gun
Plasma Gun
Plasma Pistol
Plasma Cannon
Autocannon
Assault Cannon
Cyclone Missile Launcher (Frag)
Cyclone Missile Launcher (Krak)
Missile Launcher (Frag)
Missile Launcher (Krak)
Havok Launcher
Shotgun
Lasgun
Laspistol
Lascannon
Grenade Launcher (Frag)
Grenade Launcher (Krak)
Doom Siren
Sonic Blaster
Blastmaster
Blastmaster (Varied Frequency)
Combi-Weapon

Close Combat
Grenade (Frag)
Grenade (Krak)
Grenade (Meltabomb)
Chainsword/Chainaxe
Power Weapon
Thunder Hammer
Storm Shield
Power Fist
Chainfist
Lightning Claw
Force Weapon
Daemon Weapon

Psychic Powers
Doombolt
Heavy Doombolt (Bolt of Change)
Warptime
The Quickening
Possess Machine (Machine Curse)
Unleash Daemon (The Avenger)
Vortex of Doom
Force Dome
Portal of Chaos (Gate of Infinity)

World Eaters - Book of Khorne
Mark of Khorne - Champions, Chaos Lords, Exalted Champions, Aspiring Champions, Chaos Spawn, Chaos Dreadnoughts and Lieutenants gain +1 Weapon Skill, +1 Attack, (Sorcerers and Acolytes cannot bear the Mark of Khorne)
Banner of Khorne - Squad gains +1 Weapon Skill, +1 Attack, become Fearless, Furious Charge
Bloodfeeder - Daemon Weapon for Chaos Lords and Exalted Champions with Mark of Khorne, all attacks in close combat are resolved at strength 6 but cannot gain another attack because of an additional close combat weapon.
Juggernaut of Khorne - Chaos Lords and Exalted Champions with Mark of Khorne can ride upon a Juggernaut granting them +1 Strength and +1 Attack, counts as Cavalry, (60 mm Round Base)


Death Guard - Book of Nurgle
Mark of Nurgle - Champions, Chaos Lords, Exalted Champions, Aspiring Champions, Sorcerers, Acolytes, Chaos Spawn, Chaos Dreadnoughts and Lieutenants gain +1 Toughness, +1 Wound
Banner of Nurgle - Squad gains +1 Toughness, +1 Wound, become Fearless, Feel No Pain
Plaguebringer - Daemon Weapon for Chaos Lords and Exalted Champions with Mark of Nurgle, all attacks are Poisoned Attacks that wound on a roll of 4+
Palanquin of Nurgle - Chaos Lords and Exalted Champions with Mark of Nurgle can ride upon a Palanquin granting them +1 Attack and +1 Wound and can be mounted inside a Land Raider, (40 mm Round Base)

Emperor's Children - Book of Slaanesh
Mark of Slaanesh - Champions, Chaos Lords, Exalted Champions, Aspiring Champions, Sorcerers, Acolytes, Chaos Spawn, and Lieutenants gain +1 Weapon Skill, +1 Initiative,
Banner of Slaanesh - Squad gains +1 Weapon Skill, +1 Initiative, become Fearless, access to Sonic Blaster, Blastmaster, and Doom Siren
Blissgiver - Daemon Weapon for Chaos Lords and Exalted Champions with Mark of Slaanesh, all successful wounds cause Instant Death reguardless of Toughness
Seeker of Slaanesh - Chaos Lords and Exalted Champions with Mark of Slaanesh can ride upon a Seeker granting them +1 Attack and counts as Cavalry, (bike base)

Thousand Sons - Book of Tzeentch
Mark of Tzeentch - Champions, Chaos Lords, Exalted Champions, Aspiring Champions, Sorcerers, Acolytes, Chaos Spawn, and Lieutenants gain +1 Ballistic Skill, 5+ Invulnerable Save, Infernal Bolts, and become Aspiring Sorcerers (grants access to a single psychic power)
Banner of Tzeentch - Squad gains +1 Ballistic Skill, 5+ Invulnerable Save, Infernal Bolts, become Fearless, Slow and Purposeful, Curse of Tzeentch
Kaigun - Daemon Weapon for Chaos Lords and Exalted Champions with Mark of Tzeentch, treated as a ranged weapon, disallows any other ranged weapon to be chosen, and cannot be used in close combat, has the following profile. Range: 24 in. Strength: 4 AP: 3 Type: Assault 6
Disc of Tzeentch - Chaos Lords and Exalted Champions with Mark of Tzeentch can ride upon a Disc of Tzeentch granting them +1 Attack and count as Jump Infantry (25 mm Flying Base)

Alpha Legion - Book of Diversions
Mark of Chaos Undivided - Champions, Chaos Lords, Exalted Champions, Aspiring Champions, Sorcerers, Acolytes, Chaos Spawn, and Lieutenants automatically have Mark of Chaos Undivided
Banner of Chaos Undivided - Squad already carries the Banner of Chaos Undivided
Infiltrators - Chaos Marine Squads may Infiltrate at +25 points per squad of 10 or less.

Iron Warriors - Book of Sieges
Mark of Chaos Undivided - Champions, Chaos Lords, Exalted Champions, Aspiring Champions, Sorcerers, Acolytes, Chaos Spawn, and Lieutenants automatically have Mark of Chaos Undivided
Banner of Chaos Undivided - Squad already carries the Banner of Chaos Undivided
Siege Tactics - Havok Squads may have the Tank Hunters special rule at +25 points per squad of 10 or less.

Word Bearers - Book of Zeal
Mark of Chaos Undivided - Champions, Chaos Lords, Exalted Champions, Aspiring Champions, Sorcerers, Acolytes, Chaos Spawn, and Lieutenants automatically have Mark of Chaos Undivided
Banner of Chaos Undivided - Squad already carries the Banner of Chaos Undivided
Zealous Host - Chaos Marine Squads may be Fearless at +25 points per squad of 10 or less.

Night Lords - Book of Terror
Mark of Chaos Undivided - Champions, Chaos Lords, Exalted Champions, Aspiring Champions, Sorcerers, Acolytes, Chaos Spawn, and Lieutenants automatically have Mark of Chaos Undivided
Banner of Chaos Undivided - Squad already carries the Banner of Chaos Undivided
Night Fighters - Chaos Marine Squads, Raptor Squads, and Havok Squads may have the Night Fighting

Army List

Headquarters
Abaddon the Despoiler
Lucius the Eternal
Typhus, Host of the Destroyer Hive
Kharn the Betrayer
Ahriman, Exile of the Thousand Sons
Huron Blackheart
Daemon Prince
Chaos Space Marine Lord
Chaos Space Marine Exalted Champion
Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer
Chaos Space Marine Acolyte
Chosen Guard
Chosen Terminator Guard

Elites
Undivided Daemons
- Daemonkeeper
Chosen
- Chosen Champion
Chosen Terminator
- Chosen Terminator Champion
Chaos Dreadnought
Possessed Marine
- Possessed Champion
0-1 Obliterator (Think Techmarine minus repairs but capable of firing 1 Heavy and 1 Rapid Fire or Assault weapon of choice every turn)

Troops
Chaos Marine
- Aspiring Champion
Cultist
- Lieutenant
Chaos Rhino
Dreadclaw Drop Pod

Fast Attack
Raptor
- Aspiring Champion
Mutant
- Mutant Boss
Chaos Marine Biker
- Aspiring Champion
Chaos Spawn
Cultist Biker
- Biker Lieutenant

Heavy Support
Havok
- Aspiring Champion
Land Raider
Predator
Defiler
Vindicator

And I could start adding in all the stat lines and descriptions I came up with but... you get the drift. Daemon Armor = Artificer Armor btw.

TheOneWithNoName
20-10-2011, 04:12
What I want as a Chaos player is for whoever is currently doing the Chaos plastics to disappear and get Jes Goodwin and Juan Diaz to do the line. We went from Diaz amazing DP to that plastic nonsense... :mad:

Look at the recent DE line, DE look incredible vicious and evil. CSM stuff is cartoony by comparison. Compare the difference of the Scourges wings to the possessed wings. The difference is stunning! :eek:

Right now only Forge World is doing Chaos any justice.

ashc
20-10-2011, 05:34
I was re-reading the 3.5 book last night, and removing the odd OTT piece and streamlining the rules a bit we would have had a very good book.

a sprinkle of new and exciting units and job's a good 'un.

bobafett_h
20-10-2011, 05:34
Just like with the Eldar wishlist post I made, I will also state that some of the things we think would be awesome, may not make a difference when 6th Edition comes along. The changes to the core game could make some of the current rules far better than they already are, or far worse in some cases. So most of what I will say that is rules based comes from how things work in 5th Edition, while some things are simply for fluff, and fun...

In general, I want Legions to be brought back, the Daemons Codex eliminated entirely (it is really just a cut and paste job from the Warhammer Fantasy book anyway as a way of trying to get Fantasy players who already have Daemons to start playing 40K and vice versa) and daemons be merged back in to the Chaos Codex even if it means cutting some units down or out completely.

The 3.5 Codex had lots of cool wargear and daemonic gifts to allow for lots of customization which has been severely lacking in the current book. Axes of Khorne and Juggernauts are some things I'd love to see make a return. Free Champions for squads matching the Sacred numbers would be good to have again while Dreadclaws should be a standard transport option in the Codex too.

I also want to see all Chain weapons (swords, axes, fists) have the Rending rule in 6th edition.

HQ:
The current selection of characters are fine, but some rule, stat and point tweaks are needed.
No more generic Greater Daemons. Give us back the Bloodthirster, Great Unclean One, Lord Of Change and Keeper of Secrets.
A few more options for Daemon princes such as the option to carry Daemon weapons (the Flying Berzerker Glaive Prince from 3.5 was very cool) and fix some of the Daemon weapon rules too.
Cypher needs to make a return...

Elites:
Dreadnoughts need to have their Crazed rule toned down. Perhaps use a Leadership test instead of a single D6 roll to determine if they Fire Frenzy or go into a rage or not. There could be different variants of Dreads too. Perhaps a dual CC one for the Elites section and a more shooty one for Heavy Support.
Terminators and Chosen could do with a few more options such as access to different wargear and bonuses depending on what Marks they have. I always wanted to run a unit of Khorne Chosen all riding Juggernauts, or a unit of Emperor's Children Terminators with Sonic Blasters and Blastmaster.
Possessed need the most work. Random chance of different abilities for the whole unit just sux. Something like Combat Drugs would work much better...

Troops:
Dedicated squads should go back to Elites options but can be counted as Troops with certain HQ choices. Give Berzerkers the option to have Chainaxes again.
Heretics/Cultists as basic infantry would be nice.
Lesser Daemons need to return to the different Chaos god types rather than being boring and generic.

Fast Attack:
Why are Chaos Spawn (a slow & purposeful unit) in the Fast Attack section? This makes no sense.
Daemonic beasts and cavalry need to return with all of the different varieties.
Give Raptors Hit & Run as standard or at least make it an option. Let them get certain upgrades based on what Mark they are given.
Chaos Landspeeders or some similar fast vehicle (perhaps even Attack bikes or Blight Drones) would be nice...

Heavy Support:
Havoks with the Mark of Slaanesh should be able to take sonic weapons. (4 Blastmasters in the one unit is fun)
Bring back some of the fun upgrades for vehicles such as Khorne Destroyers.
Predator and Land Raider variants that can have plasma cannons/guns...

Excessus
20-10-2011, 06:24
Lol, how many times have you posted that now Mannimarco? :D

AlphariusOmegon20
20-10-2011, 08:02
Lol, how many times have you posted that now Mannimarco? :D

He's posted it 4 or 5 times by my count, at least that I know of.

I still say he's forgetting to add razorbacks to that list, just in case GW is watching and takes his advice.....

Mannimarco
20-10-2011, 08:58
Lol, how many times have you posted that now Mannimarco? :D

I'll continue to post it in every Chaos Wishlist thread that pops up, most of the time we just rehash the stuff we screamed for in the last wishlist anyway.

Its good stuff IMO :D


He's posted it 4 or 5 times by my count, at least that I know of.

I still say he's forgetting to add razorbacks to that list, just in case GW is watching and takes his advice.....

No razorbacks, we need to differentiate ourselves from our loyalist brothers......although I wouldnt be opposed to the DarkMech sticking some fancy new toys on a rhino chassis. The pinnacle of Chaos engineering should not be "Heresy era loyalist tank + spikey bits".

Beppo1234
20-10-2011, 09:45
1)I want a worthy dreadnaught model
2)plastic obliterators, with lots of variation options on building them
3)I'd like Kharn to be downgraded to a Squad champion upgrade
4)I'd like all legion stuff to look old/preheresy stylings with chaos accutrements, like they are from 10000 years ago, but demented by 10000 years in hell. Landraiders, Dreadnaughts, Rhinos and troops should all look oldschool
5)some more fast attack options
6)plastic greater deamons
7)some new SCs, with good scultps
8)cannon fodder (relative to marines) in the form of cultists and renegades
9)wouldn't mind if they took the abaddon kit, scrapped the body, and just included the head and hands in the plastic terminator lord kit... seems to make sense since I already did it myself.
10)cooler bikes... the bikes have been around a long long long time. I'd be happy with a new take.

Athlan na Dyr
20-10-2011, 10:03
Hmmm.... Okay then:

> No fudging landspeeders/ stormraven. Stormbird or a Hell Talon? Yes, very much so (unless Stormbird was the predecessor of the thunderhawk... I'm thinking it was roughly stormraven sized?). Basically, if chaos is going to get a skimmer/ 6th ed flyer make it CHAOS and not IMPERIAL. This keeps things unique for the Chaos dex, rather than making it feel like 'ultramarines/ blood angels, etc. with spiky bits'. Same with things like the Assault Cannon. By all means, make a weapon that fulfilfs a similar role, but make it different in both name and stats to the imperial equivalent.

> Now, assuming GW sticks with the Daemons and CSM separation (a pity, but what can you do), the whole focus will be on the marines + hopefully some LatD. A big part of the CSM's are the cult troops. How i would organise it is as follows:
- Elites slot. One squad may be made troops if a HQ choice is designated as a cult member. If a second HQ choice is selected, then another cult squad may be made troops. Note that this only applies when the 'trooped' cult squad is the same type as the HQ. DP cannot belong to a cult.

- Note that a marked HQ is NOT equal to a cult member. Marked HQ's have access to a variety of extra weapons (servo-harness, dark crozius...) and make one unit of Chosen and/or Havocs troops (not entirely sure which one or to have both... thoughts?). The mark will confer some form of stat increase, whilst the cult member status has the relevant stat boost for the mark (and maybe a little extra), opens the option of taking cult wargear on the character, makes them benefit from the cult troops special rules and pimps any Demon Weapons to the more powerful version.

- Cult Entry: Starts off with the Cult member in power armour, armed with the signature weapon (i.e. Sonic Weapons). 2 attacks base, otherwise base marine. These can then be upgraded to Terminator Armour, with a set price for a Champion. As for wargear/ rules, as follows:

Bezerkers. Squads of between 5 and 10. 3 Attacks base, WS 5. Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon (with offensive grenades). 2 members may take Plasma Pistols. 2 members may take power swords. Champion may take either a Powerfist or a Power Sword. Special Rules are Furious Charge, Fleet and Rage. The squad may upgrade to terminator armour, replacing power armour and the Bolt Pistol with terminator armour and a Power weapon. When in terminator armour, plasma pistols may not be taken, yet any squad member may replace their CCW and/or Power weapon with lightning claws.

Noise Marines. Squads of between 5 and 10. Armed with a Sonic Blaster, BP, CCW (and defensive grenades). Up to 2 Noise Marines may carry a blastmaster. +1 Initiative, fleet. The champion may select either a power weapon or a power fist
Sonic Blaster is 18" range, Assault 3, S4, AP5, Disruption*, Sonic Blast**
*Disruption: When target unit (non-vehicle) takes a casualty, the target unit must take a strength test. If this test is failed, then the unit counts as if it had gone to ground as they frantically cover their ears to try and blot out the horrendous sound. If a Blastmaster also causes a wound on the unit, then the strength test is taken with a +1 modifier to the D6. Note that abilities that prevent going to ground (such as imperial guard orders) are not effective against Disruption.
**Sonic Blast: When a Sonic Blaster or Blastmaster Hits a target, the target unit loses all bonuses for cover for this shooting phase as such things are blown apart or knocked to the ground. Note that this includes cover saves for any targets with an Armour Value. Also note that this includes going to ground in open terrain. The unit is writhing in agony or focussing on blotting out all sensory impulse, not eating dirt!
The Squad may exchange Power Armour, BP and CCW for Terminator Armour and power weapon. When in terminator armour, up to 2 noise marines may still carry a Blastmaster. Also, any noise marines may replace their CCW or sonic blaster with Lightning Claws. A noise marine dedicated transport may replace its twin linked bolter with a sonic blaster (for appropriate pts).

Thousand Sons. Squads of between 5 and 10, with one being a sorceror. Armed with a bolter loaded with Inferno Bolts***, BP, CCW (no grenades). The Sorceror is a psyker, replaces his CCW with a Force Weapon and may select one Psychic Power from XXX (does have a boltgun).
***Inferno Bolts. Changes AP value of boltgun to 3 and gives the Melta special rule.
Two Wounds, Automatons****, Add 1 to any Inv. Save OR give a 6+ invulnerable.
****Automatons: If there is no Psyker in the squad of Thousand Sons, roll a D6 at the start of your player turn. If the result is a one, then the thousand sons may not shoot, move or attack in Close Combat and are hit automatically in close combat until the start of your next player turn.
The squad may replace its power armour, BP, Bolter and CCW with Terminator Armour, a twin linked bolter loaded with Inferno Bolts and power weapons (sorceror retains Force Weapon). Up to two members may replace their Power Weapons with Power Fists.
A dedicated transport may be upgraded to have a thousand sons crew. If so, any bolt weapons have inferno bolts, Crew Stunned and Crew Shaken results are ignored, yet the transport is affected by the Automatons special rule with the following change: it must roll a D6 unless a psyker is being transported or is in within 6" of the transport's hull at the beginning of the player turn.

Plague Marines. Squads of between 5 and 10. T5, Feel No Pain, Cloud of Flies*****, Blight Grenades******, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, CCW.
*****Cloud of Flies: The dense swarm of flies confers a 6+ cover save and the Stealth USR (i.e. a 5+ cover save in the open, 4+ when going to ground). Also counts as defensive grenades.
******Blight Grenades: Offensive grenades with the following exception; A single blight grenade can be thrown for every five plague marines in the unit. This is a shooting attack with the following profile Range 12", S -, AP 5, Blast, Poisoned (4+). This replaces the shooting for one plague marine.
Up to 2 Plague Marines may be upgraded to have: meltaguns, flamers, plasma guns. The champion may select either a power weapon or a power fist.
The Squad may replace their Boltgun, Bolt Pistol and CCW with Terminator Armour, Twin linked Bolters and Power Weapons. If so, up to two members may take Meltaguns, Flamers or Plasma Guns. Any squad member may replace their Power Weapon and/ or twin linked bolter with lightning claws [not sure about this one. Replace with option for 2 powerfists perhaps...].

Phew! So that's what I'm envisioning for cult troops, with chosen/ chaos terminators being melded into a similar entry. Bear in mind that I'm a chaos enthusiast, not a player:shifty:. These entries will be rather expensive (as befitting of Elites), with the HQ upgrade also being rather costly. Thoughts anyone?

DeathMetal4tw
20-10-2011, 17:14
I don't think listing specific stat lines and rules is going to do much good. If we want anything of our message to catch on through the internets, to hit other forums and eventually possibly catch the eye of someone at GW, we should probably stick to simple, tangible things. I think it'd be great for plague marines to become elites/unlockable as troops for example, but I'm not going to talk about what I want changed in their statline.

If the notion that the players will be heard is already a little unrealistic, then the notion that the creators/writers of the game will be viewing this specific thread and taking notes on our posited stat lines is a far flung fantasy. Let's stick to the basics.

Of all the general ideas floating around I strongly agree with the sentiment that chaos needs to be different from vanilla marines in a meaningful way.

Askari
20-10-2011, 18:14
Nothing like the Chaos Armour shown in THQ/Relic's Space Marine game.

Holy crap those armour sets look like crap. Yes, I had to say the same word twice to explain my annoyance.

Otherwise, click Chaos Codex in my sig. I'm not typing it out again.

tezdal
20-10-2011, 18:22
I just want my 3.5 dex back and new 'zerkers.

Eddie Chaos
20-10-2011, 19:59
Berserker terminators, Beserker bikers, Beserker assault marines. I'm not even much of a Khorne fan but I can see those should exist.

Also, marked tanks with upgrades like sonic weapons. Perhaps a sentinel sized daemon engine taken in squads of 1-5?

Human cultists and perhaps a "Court of the Archon" style unit for chaos lords.

mutant scum as cheep cannon fodder?

Rogzor87
20-10-2011, 20:07
I'll say it again. I just want an all terminator army viable. I don't wanna play Space Wolves, Death Wing or Grey Knights just to play an all Terminator Army. ):

Eddie Chaos
20-10-2011, 20:14
we need chapter traits or similar.

buy a bike for you lord to get access to biker troops
buy a mark for your lord and get that cult for troops
buy x upgrade for your lord to get access to more heavy support slots or something
Buy Abaddon to get Cult terminators of all flavors as troops :O

Sami
20-10-2011, 20:37
Proper actual Legions.

ashc
20-10-2011, 20:49
Nothing like the Chaos Armour shown in THQ/Relic's Space Marine game.

Holy crap those armour sets look like crap. Yes, I had to say the same word twice to explain my annoyance.

Otherwise, click Chaos Codex in my sig. I'm not typing it out again.

Responded in your thread, although I feel like a great threadomancer as I had completely forgotten about it! ;)

DeathMetal4tw
20-10-2011, 21:43
we need chapter traits or similar.

buy a bike for you lord to get access to biker troops
buy a mark for your lord and get that cult for troops
buy x upgrade for your lord to get access to more heavy support slots or something
Buy Abaddon to get Cult terminators of all flavors as troops :O

God yes. Anyone else wanna back this up?

Vedar
20-10-2011, 21:46
You can't call it Codex CSM and be able to have no CSM in your list. If you let cultist be troop options then you could make a list with no CSMs.

The only way around that would be to make at least 1 CSM sqaud manditory somehow. I guess I'm alone in wanting to play CSM in my CSM list.

Either that or make cultists not take up a force org chart.

Asher
20-10-2011, 21:48
You can't call it Codex CSM and be able to have no CSM in your list. If you let cultist be troop options then you could make a list with no CSMs.


Well... you can make a Grey Knights army without Grey Knights.

ashc
20-10-2011, 21:49
Or one cultist squad per Troop CSM squad, or the 2 compulsory troop can't be cultists, or cultists max at 10 per squad. I also don't think they should be 'traitor guard' and make up a cheap heavy weapon in troops, they should be their for harassment and catching a few bullets.

Actually there are lots of ways of doing it. I am a big fan of it personally, as it allows for lots of cool conversions and ideas for them, and ties nicely to the unit in Dawn of War.

Eddie Chaos
20-10-2011, 22:25
or cultists are troops but don't count toward the minimum requirement. so there will still be at least 2 CSM units + the HQ

Scribe of Khorne
21-10-2011, 02:16
It's going to be Phil Kelly.

Thank the Dark Gods!

As to what I want?

Legions, all the time. If you cannot have full representation of Legions, from the HQ, across multiple unit types PER FOC SLOT, infantry and vehicles, its a failure of a book that I will simply not buy. If I dont get a proper World Eater list, I'm done with Lash/Plague/Oblit = chaos forrrrrrrrrrrrrrever.

Daemonia
21-10-2011, 04:10
Hell you can keep the army list almost the same as it was before and give me new Berserker models and I'd buy an entire army of them and play again.

Buddha777
21-10-2011, 04:23
Legions died with the 4th edition dex. All this wish for them back is now almost 3 editions old.

I'm simply looking for something equivalent to the current codex space marines. IE HQ options to change the FOC, and special characters to represent the old foes we all know (an alpha legion and nightlords character would be great). But full on legion dex? Count me out.

AlphariusOmegon20
21-10-2011, 14:09
I'll continue to post it in every Chaos Wishlist thread that pops up, most of the time we just rehash the stuff we screamed for in the last wishlist anyway.

Its good stuff IMO :D



No razorbacks, we need to differentiate ourselves from our loyalist brothers......although I wouldnt be opposed to the DarkMech sticking some fancy new toys on a rhino chassis. The pinnacle of Chaos engineering should not be "Heresy era loyalist tank + spikey bits".

The reason I keep bringing up the Razorback, Marco is we do need a smaller capacity vehicle than the Rhino and right now the Rzaorback is the only sensible option we have.

I'm not opposed to a new vehicle that performs the same role as a Razorback, but since that vehicle does not currently exist, Razorback is the only name I can call it.

I guess the best thing to do when you see me post the word Razorback in Chaos threads is you to put mental quotation marks around the word. :)


What I want as a Chaos player is for whoever is currently doing the Chaos plastics to disappear and get Jes Goodwin and Juan Diaz to do the line. We went from Diaz amazing DP to that plastic nonsense... :mad:

Look at the recent DE line, DE look incredible vicious and evil. CSM stuff is cartoony by comparison. Compare the difference of the Scourges wings to the possessed wings. The difference is stunning! :eek:

Right now only Forge World is doing Chaos any justice.

The current plastics are a damn sight better than what we did have prior in metal. Granted, I'll give you that the Berzerkers could still use a better model.

the1stpip
21-10-2011, 18:15
How many people do you see with Fast Arrack choices in their armies, seeing as how they are raiders, and yet Imperial Guard, being a static force, often fill out their FA slots.

Better choices, appropriate points cost.

Oh, and a return to Legions.

Lungboy
21-10-2011, 18:43
I could have sworn that it was Ward's, based on the naming convention and overall sillines. Oh well, I stand corrected; it's just 3:2 for Ward.


Ward did C: SM too.

Eddie Chaos
21-10-2011, 18:58
I think legions by proxy is better that legion specific rules.

Let me explain. In 3.5 If I wanted to play a tank heavy army the best thing to do was to use the iron warriors list, but what if I want an alpha legion tank army? I understand that there is nothing saying I cant paint my "Iron Warriors" blue/green but in practice some (many?) players will (and did back in the day) feel my green/blue chaos marines should use the alpha legion rules.

The 3.5 book implied (especially to rules lawyers) that the black legion never go Mech and that only the night lords can see in the dark (power armour does that as standard I believe)

I understand that its my army and I can paint it how I like but I still think a more elegant solution is to have non specific chapter traits.

So instead of saying "this is the Iron warriors sublist/FOC change" you say "this is the Mech sublist" or "this is the cultist heavy sublist"

Give me loads of options, don't dictate to me, because maybe I want Khorne Mech

end of ramble

Sami
21-10-2011, 19:07
Yes we all want hard hitting CC troops that can spam heavy tanks. The Legions are built around themes, and it's far easier to balance around one set of rules (World Eaters, Iron Warriors, etc), than the endless(ish) permutations of mixing FOC and unit changing rules/characters alongside adding in Marks of X/Y/Z.

I would rather have something that is functional, balance and versatile than playing Create-A-Codex. Balancing 9 Legions would be hard enough without trying to balance in every possible combo of everything.

Infiltrating-mech army!

Finn
21-10-2011, 19:12
I realize I'm quoting from the first page here...and apologies for the wall of text, but like others I can't resist a Chaos wishlist. It just wouldn't be Chaos without one every couple of weeks.

Its absolutely retarded that if you go traitor and swear to an evil god, they in return hand you a stupid looking hat for joining their little club.
Haven't you heard? Silly hats only (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEiyBbP28g8). I think that if you choose which parts you use wisely, or use a little cutting here and there to trim some excessive bits, you can end up with a very nice look. I'm rather fond of the Chaos model line at present.

what annoys me about chaos is all the little details on the armour that you have to paint. It takes a long time because I feel like every khorne berzerker is a ******* HQ.
Cult troops should have a bunch of symbols on them, though. They're pretty fervent/maniacal in their devotion to their god, after all.

It's going to be Phil Kelly.
And there was much rejoicing.

Don't take one of those? One mark + undivided only.

Khorne could have a Lone Wolf style solo character who hit like a truck in hand to hand
1) Please no. I see no reason why a Lord who's earned a Mark of Khorne wouldn't have Troops units with Mark of Nurgle. The Marks are in there to give flexibility and options to a book that lacks (in comparison to the more recent books) a higher number of unit entries. If you take that flexibility away...it becomes much harder to make a balanced book. And as NC stated, balance is FUN.
2) We've got one already, and he's really a standup guy!


csm is gonna be a hard job, i dont envy the writer.
I do. I think it would be incredibly fun, similar to acting a tough part in theater (note: I am not an actor). I think if the writer manages to blend everything that makes Chaos Chaotic, all these different and often schizophrenic aspects of the Dark Gods...channels the cold ambition of the power hungry Chaos Lord...basically, grimdark. It might also help if Kelly pays a lot of attention to politics. Definitely some Chaos inspiration to pull from some of the darker characters there.


1)I want a worthy dreadnaught model
3)I'd like Kharn to be downgraded to a Squad champion upgrade
4)I'd like all legion stuff to look old/preheresy stylings with chaos accutrements, like they are from 10000 years ago, but demented by 10000 years in hell. Landraiders, Dreadnaughts, Rhinos and troops should all look oldschool
1) No kidding.
3) But...wasn't he a Captain-equivalent during the Heresy? And he's the Chosen Champion of Khorne - even when he's "killed", he gets reincarnated right? That's at least hinted at...making him a squad leader would be either a slap in the face or a game-breaking upgrade by giving you access to essentially 3 HQ characters (if you do him justice)
4) Mostly I agree here, except please no football Land Raiders. Let the newly Renegade players convert their armies from Loyalists, or simply keep the current CSM sculpts for them.

My own list:
Bring Raptors and Bikes reasonably in line with their loyalist counterparts. Maybe give them some extra chaos-y upgrade options - if loyalists can have grenade launchers on their bikes, why can't Chaos have something similar, like maybe a Havoc Launcher?
Dreadnought shenanigans need to go. Take Crazed back to the 3.5E version, or get rid of Fire Frenzy altogether and just make it take a "Roll a 2+ or suffer from Rage this turn" test.
Maybe I'm just going to have to adjust to the changing times, but I really don't think Flyers belong in standard 40k in any form. Leave the Hell Blades and Hell Talons to Apocalypse, please. Or maybe Planetstrike.
Make the Lord entry so customizable that it takes up like 2 pages and covers all 5 options. I like NC's take on the FOC adjustments for certain lord upgrades.
Be able to Mark some vehicles, giving them access to god-specific equipment. Blastmasters or Khorne Runes on Predators, for example.
Grudgingly move cult Troops back to the Elites slot. Be able to give them Terminator armor, similar to the present Lord and Sorcerer entries - you have one column of options for the power armor version, and another column of options for the Terminator version. The power armor version can be taken as Troops with the appropriate Lord.
Blight Drones would be a viable additional demon engine.
Marks not being in Icon form. Icons and Marks should be separate upgrades, as before.
Like, 2 pages of psychic powers. Seriously, this is Chaos we're talking about here. If Kelly has to dig through some D&D books or MTG cards looking for spell affects inspiration, fine, just give me some more powers.
Some kind of Perils of the Warp protection/immunity. Daemon Princes should be basically immune, seriously. And I'll pay points for that. A wargear option that gives 4+ or 5+ to ignore? Maybe the 4+ version is a perk for being Tzeentch.

Chaos Undecided
21-10-2011, 19:20
More unique units to make them something more than marines with added spikes really so Cultists, more Daemon Engines etc. Give us the ability to make legion specific lists even if its just a special character from each of the original traitor legions and bring back Cult termis etc no easily removed icon buffs.

Eddie Chaos
21-10-2011, 19:32
Yes we all want hard hitting CC troops that can spam heavy tanks. The Legions are built around themes, and it's far easier to balance around one set of rules (World Eaters, Iron Warriors, etc), than the endless(ish) permutations of mixing FOC and unit changing rules/characters alongside adding in Marks of X/Y/Z.

I would rather have something that is functional, balance and versatile than playing Create-A-Codex. Balancing 9 Legions would be hard enough without trying to balance in every possible combo of everything.

Infiltrating-mech army!

yeah looking back I realise that is the implication of my post but I assure you that wasn't my intent.

I agree with you all I meant was that I don't feel there is need for legion specific rules. instead Codex space marine style, pick a character or character upgrade (shrike or a bike for your HQ for example) and that changes your army in some small way.

I didn't mean to imply "look at my Khorne tank wizard army" :P

Erazmus_M_Wattle
21-10-2011, 19:41
I think legions by proxy is better that legion specific rules.

Let me explain. In 3.5 If I wanted to play a tank heavy army the best thing to do was to use the iron warriors list, but what if I want an alpha legion tank army? I understand that there is nothing saying I cant paint my "Iron Warriors" blue/green but in practice some (many?) players will (and did back in the day) feel my green/blue chaos marines should use the alpha legion rules.

The 3.5 book implied (especially to rules lawyers) that the black legion never go Mech and that only the night lords can see in the dark (power armour does that as standard I believe)

I understand that its my army and I can paint it how I like but I still think a more elegant solution is to have non specific chapter traits.

So instead of saying "this is the Iron warriors sublist/FOC change" you say "this is the Mech sublist" or "this is the cultist heavy sublist"

Give me loads of options, don't dictate to me, because maybe I want Khorne Mech

end of ramble

Amen Brother. +1 to that. If the mech, fast attack, cultists and daemonic lists were not locked into a specific legion we could all chop and change game to game without it going against a rather arbitrary fluff prescription. Night Lords might excel at fast attack lists, Alpha Legion at stealth, Iron Warriors at heavy armour or what not. The other legions should be able when they are required to though.

Knifeparty
22-10-2011, 02:32
Nothing like the Chaos Armour shown in THQ/Relic's Space Marine game.

Holy crap those armour sets look like crap. Yes, I had to say the same word twice to explain my annoyance.

WOW, really?

I was going to say, finally somebody made chaos armour the way it should look. That is exactly the kind of armour I would want GW to make. The already make normal SM with smooth armour, so I feel it would be only right to make Chaos an insanely complex juxtaposition to that.

But to each their own I suppose.

Charistoph
22-10-2011, 05:15
It would be nice to see a Sorcerer Coven in Elites that operate similar to Grey Knights, but can also do big ritual powers kind of like the IG Psyker unit can do.

I, too think that Chosen should be like Wolf Guard in their options selection, and add the Champion upgrade from the now defunct Terinator unit to finalize the round up.

I like the idea of having Possessed be similar to Mark of the Wolfen, but with different rules, or possibly like the Lone Wolf, but meaner.

Spawn should be Summonable like the rest of Daemons. While we're on that, a Champion upgrade that allows a unit to Deep Strike ala Daemons would be cool.

ashc
22-10-2011, 07:48
Charistoph has come up with some really cool ideas there, some stuff that I have considered for a long time. It bugs me that often the Space Wolves codex feels like it operates more like a Chaos Warband than a Codex Chapter...

totgeboren
22-10-2011, 08:26
I really like the Sorcerer Coven idea as an elite choice.

An idea I was toying around with regarding the Possessed was that they could work in a similar way as the Ymgnarl (sp?) genestealers.
We have two problems, first is that WYSIWYG still applies, and secondly that GW wants people to buy their very nice looking possessed models.
If we have rules like in 3.5, where you bought what abilities you wanted, you need to model them so it obvious for the other player what they are facing. This can be very hard, considering almost all their abilities are close combat related.

So, without doing the 'Herp Derp random is chaos!' I would like them to have some basic abilities like daemonic strength, aura and one (or two, they should have 3 attacks in total) extra attacks.
On top of that, they should have a list of maybe three abilities which they could choose one each turn, but not the same as the one chosen the turn before. Like FNP, Rending and daemonic speed (fleet and a 12" assault range).

Without access to powerweapons, they should drop by a significant amount of points. I mean, the current point value for them is only reasonable if you roll power weapons, otherwise they are way overcosted.

However, I also really like the idea of them being scattered around the different units, like wulven, so I don't know.

Other than that, Cultists! Like in the old Chapter Approved book. some cheap cannon-fodder with some basic upgrades.

Icons should give a permanent buff. The icon is only important for summoning, and easily lets your opponent know what abilities your squads have.

No God-Cult troops in Troops, unless your Lord has the correct mark himself. Fix the marks so the troops are not better than the elites.

Use the sagas from the SW codex as inspiration for the Chaos Lords. I would like to see a 'path' system.
A path would be to be marked by a God, or have a really useful ability which should coincided with the characteristics of one of the unmarked legions.

Like 'Steel over Flesh'. The lord has the Feel no Pain special rule, and may pick a single unit of Havocs as troops, who also gain the Feel no pain special rule.
Or, 'Unholy Herald'. The Lord improves his daemonic aura save to 4+, and makes everyone within 6" stubborn and they may also use his Ld for any tests.
Or 'Talonmaster'. The lord gains the hit and run special rule. A unit of Raptors may count as troops and gain the hit and run special rule.
Things like that.

ashc
22-10-2011, 08:29
'Ymgarl Possessed' was an idea i was thinking about, great minds Totgeboren :) I like that more than the Mark of the Wulfen idea, 'mutable' warriors for any situation would make them really cool, and bring something different to the board.

Excessus
22-10-2011, 09:16
Totgeboren, not only do you make awesome Cthulhu daemons, you also have great ideas for chaos! :)

And AlphariusOmegon20, the termies we have now are bigger and more customizable...but I really miss the look and detail-level of the old ones! That's what was really awesome with the old metal models, the level of details! Sure, the ordinary marine models weren't all that(except the berzerker champs and plague marines, they were good!), but they had an old archaic feel to them...

Gorbad Ironclaw
22-10-2011, 10:39
I would rather have something that is functional, balance and versatile than playing Create-A-Codex. Balancing 9 Legions would be hard enough without trying to balance in every possible combo of everything.


I agree that the goal should be functional, balance and versatility. I do not however think we need Legion rules. The ability to make different units into proper cult units is all that's required. That, and a properly internally balanced book will let you create any of the Legions you want without having to burden people with several pages of redundant special rules micromanaging peoples armies for them.

Beppo1234
23-10-2011, 11:28
1) No kidding.
3) But...wasn't he a Captain-equivalent during the Heresy? And he's the Chosen Champion of Khorne - even when he's "killed", he gets reincarnated right? That's at least hinted at...making him a squad leader would be either a slap in the face or a game-breaking upgrade by giving you access to essentially 3 HQ characters (if you do him justice)4) Mostly I agree here, except please no football Land Raiders. Let the newly Renegade players convert their armies from Loyalists, or simply keep the current CSM sculpts for them.



I've just always felt that Kharn should be a crazy berzerker, not a force commander. Keep him crazy, but make him a non-HQ special character. He'd rather be killing things than coordinating armies. And it's not like 2+ special character lists don't already exist.

I also like the new FW rendition of the old school raider. It'd be nice if Chaos stuff, atleast legion stuff was all well aged.

ashc
23-10-2011, 11:30
I agree that the goal should be functional, balance and versatility. I do not however think we need Legion rules. The ability to make different units into proper cult units is all that's required. That, and a properly internally balanced book will let you create any of the Legions you want without having to burden people with several pages of redundant special rules micromanaging peoples armies for them.

This is equally my opinion on it too.

The 3.5 book already had the cult units, and also veteran skills. By then going ahead and giving the legions their own pages of rules it was needless bloat.

RunepriestRidcully
23-10-2011, 14:56
I thought of this the other day, it's a predator variant that would be chaos only.
The Predator Avenger, first developed by the Iron warriors legion towards the end of the great crusade to counter the heavily armoured troops and beasts of the S'cred Cluster is now only found amongst the forces of the original nine traitor legions, their loyalist counterparts long having been lost or destroyed.
Originally mounted with the turret mounted Olympia IIa pattern Plasma blaster, the Avenger was named so after the fall of the last stronghold of the S'cred, avenging the almost complete destruction of the 15th grand company and the 62nd expedition fleet six years earlier.
This success against heavily armourered opponents led to most legions adopting it's use, though the scarity of opponents against which it was need meant their numbers were never that great, the Iron salamanders having the most, 77 and 32 respectively.
During the heresy, both sides sought to increase production of the Avenger, yet following Isstavan, Tallahan and Terra, combined with Avengers becoming high priority targets to both sides,led to the destruction of all loyalist examples, apart from the Salamaders "Fire of Nocturne" which since M33.8916 has not been roused to war, and all attempts to copy of it have failed.
Due to it's plasma blaster, the Avenger cannot take lascannon sponsons, though heavy flamer and heavy bolter sponsons have been sighted, as have the heavy Havok launcher sponsons. Most examples however have no sponsons, extra armour plates fitted in place, a practice adopted to try and preserve predator. It is unknown how many exist amongst the traitor legions, though it seems production does take place in small numbers, and they have been sighted in every traitor legion bar the death guard legion.
Predator Avenger 90pts
BS:4 F:13 S:12 R:10 Tank
Plasma Blaster R:30 S:7 AP:2 Heavy:3, Small blast
May take heavy flamer sponsons or Heavy Bolter sponsons 5pts, or heavy Havok Launchers at 15pts, it may also take any other tank upgrades in the chaos space marine codex.
Heavy Havok Launcher Krack range:36, S:7 AP:3 Heavy 2, Frag Range:36, S:5 AP:4 Heavy 3, Small blast.
WHilst completely new warmachines would be nice, a chaos predator variant would be nice and I thought what predator variant style did loyalists not have? an anti infantry armour variant. Marks for tanks would be nice, and as people have said, cultists as well, make chaos more than a watered down loyalist marine codex.

Baneboss
23-10-2011, 15:01
Cultists or Heretics would be cool alone with the rule (or similar to) from IA9 Tyrant's Legion army list that makes them a living shield for marines.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
23-10-2011, 16:07
@Totgeboren.

Since the Warriors of Chaos book came out for WFB I've been thinking the gifts of chaos table in the book is the kind of thing Chaos Marines have been needing. Rumour has it Phil Kelly is writing the new codex. He wrote that one too so maybe we will see such a table in the new codex.

I like your ideas as well though.

@Runepriestridcully

That predator idea is really cool. Its mental. I love it. I'd be happy with regular havoc launchers on the sponsons though. With that thought I want them back for my dreads.

You're right. This is exactly the kind if thing we need. Something that loyalists don't get. A unique landraider would go down well too.

And some more random musings...

I agree with others sentiments that we don't need to go back to 3.5. I'd rather we had a versatile list that could adequately represent any of the legions without restrictive rules like last time. I don't want to have s prescribed list style like last time.

I'd much rather some of the HQs and grey box characters added some legion flavour to the list.

I can't remember off hand who suggested Kharne be an upgrade character. I think you're right. He was once a captain and lead troops. Nowadays he's a blood crazed lunatic so it's fair to assume he's lost the ability to think with tactics and strategy. I wouldn't follow him. He's a nutter.

I don't want a rehash of all the old characters. It'll be nice if they are in there but we really need some new characters from the undivided legions. I totally understand players collecting the big five chaos legions but we undivided players need some love and attention too.

Eddie Chaos
23-10-2011, 17:03
@Runepriestridcully I would rather have sonic weapons tbh

I hope we get a few new characters. I think we are guaranteed at least one as the release mascot but I hope for an Iron Warrior Warsmith, a Word bearer Dark Apostle and a renegade Lord. It would be nice to get Cypher back as well.

I'm also going to say the words "Raptor Jetbikes" and see if anyone likes it. ;)

Garanaul the Black
23-10-2011, 17:06
I hope we get a few new characters. I think we are guaranteed at least one as the release mascot but I hope for an Iron Warrior Warsmith, a Word bearer Dark Apostle and a renegade Lord. It would be nice to get Cypher back as well.



I'll agree and add a Night Lord character request to the mix.


G

Mit Gas
23-10-2011, 17:53
I'd be fine with new special characters even though the current ones aren't shabby. Give the Undivided legions some characters, I'd have no problem with Ahriman not being in there e.g. as a Thousand Sons player. But truth be told, I don't care too much for special characters - Kharn is probably my favourite.

What I hope for are these things:

* Cultists - I really want those - they should be worse than guardsmen, just meatshields basically but I'd love to have some non-powerarmored soldier. Chaos forces shouldn't be marine-only warbands, they should be much more of a mix out of reliable 1st class pros (marines), weird specialists (daemons, spawns, possessed, cults to a degree) and more or less cheap rabble (e.g. cultists, weak daemons).

* Better spawns - I love Tzeentch and even if the Thousand Sons themselves aren't mutated anymore, I could imagine them taking some spawns with them. They might grow on trees on the planet of sorcerers for all we know. ;)

* Useful dreads - make the crazyness a special ability or something, not mandatory.

* Give us Chaos back - I don't want another variant of Space Marines, I want Chaos Space Marines - give them archaic, baroque armor (Thousand Sons), weird elements (Noise Marines et alii) just don't make them seem like normal Space Marines with horns and spikes. The illustrations also very often reflect that style (fleshy armor, tongues coming out of the armor, eyes all over them, disgusting mutations or simply mutated arms and faces etc.), many minis don't. It's impossible to make miniatures really horrific and creepy but they could go a bit into that direction.

* Weirder tanks / machinery - that six-legged freak was the first step in the right direction, we would embrace more of that!


Probably very unrealistic but of course:

* Real daemons - that might be too much to ask for.

AlphariusOmegon20
23-10-2011, 17:53
Totgeboren, not only do you make awesome Cthulhu daemons, you also have great ideas for chaos! :)

And AlphariusOmegon20, the termies we have now are bigger and more customizable...but I really miss the look and detail-level of the old ones! That's what was really awesome with the old metal models, the level of details! Sure, the ordinary marine models weren't all that(except the berzerker champs and plague marines, they were good!), but they had an old archaic feel to them...

Actually it was the rank and file models among a few others that I was thinking of when I made that post.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for GW to go back to the old spiky helmet metal PM's, but I think that that's an exception to the old sculpts, not the rule.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RunepriestRidcully
23-10-2011, 20:04
The idea of Raptor jetbikes is nice, again it would help make chaos different from loyalists, though I feel they would have to be very elite. (competition for jetbikes would be as great as that for terminator armour.)
Just had a thought, perhaps make the likes of chosen, terminators and jetbikers be
WS:5 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:4 A:2 SV3+/6++(basic chosen) SV:2+/5++ (terminators) T:5(4) SV:3+/5++ (Jetbikers) with all their options for weapons, marks ect.. these guys from the fluff should be on par with Grey Knight Paladins, and be amongst the most powerful and terrifying mortal beings in the galaxy.
Perhaps all chaos vehicles could have "if taken in a Emperor's Children army, it may replace it's weapons with sonic weapons."?

Inquisitor Aaron
23-10-2011, 20:23
Jet bikes would be a really good way to differ the spikey boys from the golden boys. It would be cool to have cult options with them too.

Just my .02 cents :chrome:

Eddie Chaos
23-10-2011, 21:13
Jet bikes would be a really good way to differ the spikey boys from the golden boys. It would be cool to have cult options with them too.

Just my .02 cents :chrome:

Personally I would limit them to Raptors, I like the idea of the Raptors as a separate cult in their own right, made of the best assault marines, Jet bikes and skimmers like the Hellblade.

If anyone could have them everyone would take bezerker jetbikes and I reckon that would be OP and out of character.

Baaltor
23-10-2011, 21:14
I agree that the goal should be functional, balance and versatility. I do not however think we need Legion rules. The ability to make different units into proper cult units is all that's required. That, and a properly internally balanced book will let you create any of the Legions you want without having to burden people with several pages of redundant special rules micromanaging peoples armies for them.

I must agree. The problem with making each list unique is that one must make up reasons for why they're so different, a chaos space marine from the word bearers might be furious and stubborn, and a iron warrior may be stubborn and furious, but that doesn't make them different! This problem is seen in the loyalist book where some units are arbitrarily unique to some factions just to bulk up the choices, like the librarian dreadnaughts. Also: have you guys seen the grey knight book? Half the choices are just a more advanced version of another! Strike squads=purifier squads, terminator squads=Paladin squads.

The fact is that chaos only needs a book or two, same for loyalists.


I thought of this the other day, it's a predator variant that would be chaos only.
The Predator Avenger, first developed by the Iron warriors legion towards the end of the great crusade to counter the heavily armoured troops and beasts of the S'cred Cluster is now only found amongst the forces of the original nine traitor legions, their loyalist counterparts long having been lost or destroyed.
Originally mounted with the turret mounted Olympia IIa pattern Plasma blaster, the Avenger was named so after the fall of the last stronghold of the S'cred, avenging the almost complete destruction of the 15th grand company and the 62nd expedition fleet six years earlier.
This success against heavily armourered opponents led to most legions adopting it's use, though the scarity of opponents against which it was need meant their numbers were never that great, the Iron salamanders having the most, 77 and 32 respectively.
During the heresy, both sides sought to increase production of the Avenger, yet following Isstavan, Tallahan and Terra, combined with Avengers becoming high priority targets to both sides,led to the destruction of all loyalist examples, apart from the Salamaders "Fire of Nocturne" which since M33.8916 has not been roused to war, and all attempts to copy of it have failed.
Due to it's plasma blaster, the Avenger cannot take lascannon sponsons, though heavy flamer and heavy bolter sponsons have been sighted, as have the heavy Havok launcher sponsons. Most examples however have no sponsons, extra armour plates fitted in place, a practice adopted to try and preserve predator. It is unknown how many exist amongst the traitor legions, though it seems production does take place in small numbers, and they have been sighted in every traitor legion bar the death guard legion.
Predator Avenger 90pts
BS:4 F:13 S:12 R:10 Tank
Plasma Blaster R:30 S:7 AP:2 Heavy:3, Small blast
May take heavy flamer sponsons or Heavy Bolter sponsons 5pts, or heavy Havok Launchers at 15pts, it may also take any other tank upgrades in the chaos space marine codex.
Heavy Havok Launcher Krack range:36, S:7 AP:3 Heavy 2, Frag Range:36, S:5 AP:4 Heavy 3, Small blast.
WHilst completely new warmachines would be nice, a chaos predator variant would be nice and I thought what predator variant style did loyalists not have? an anti infantry armour variant. Marks for tanks would be nice, and as people have said, cultists as well, make chaos more than a watered down loyalist marine codex.

Yeah, I'd like two variants for us: an auto-cannon one and a plasma one. Anything else is just gravy. :P

Inquisitor Aaron
23-10-2011, 22:00
Personally I would limit them to Raptors, I like the idea of the Raptors as a separate cult in their own right, made of the best assault marines, Jet bikes and skimmers like the Hellblade.

If anyone could have them everyone would take bezerker jetbikes and I reckon that would be OP and out of character.

Never thought of raptors..
That would definitely make more sense!
I like the way you think sir! :D

MajorWesJanson
25-10-2011, 04:38
From a thread in N&R, I was discussing a potential divide of Chaos among books in 40K

True, I am, but I am doing to for mechanical/Rules reasons. If there was one book with Legions, Renegades, Daemons, Cultists, Traitor Guard, it would be awesome but large and unwieldy. Daemons are already separated, and if Legions get more of a focus, it would be best to focus on the Legions rather then them and the renegades like the existing book. Instead of the 4 Gods, make it about the 9 Legions. Give Each Legion a sort of focus-
Black Legion- Terminators
Alpha Legion- Infiltration, Manipulation
Thousand Sons- Psykers, Rubric Marines
Emperor's Children- Sonic Weapons/ Noise Marines, combat drugs
World Eaters- Berzerkers, Anti-psyker
Iron Warriors- Havocs, tanks
Death Guard- Plague Marines
Night Lords- Raptors, Night Fight
Word Bearers- Dark Apostles, posessed.

Then remove some of the things that don't fit as well with the legions book- Huron, Greater Daemons.

That leaves some things missing a book, so a Renegades book mechanically similar to Grey Knights (a mix of characters, tough infantry, and mutable retinue/warbands for Inquisitors) and add new elements to fill the gaps.
Put in Huron as the big character, then add say Cypher, some renegade Inquisitors, Traitor generals, ect. Leave the cult troops out, but keep marks in. Remove the Defiler but allow traitor guard and say Chimaeras and a Leman Russ. Warbands with units like cultists, daemonhosts, bountyhunters, posessed, corrupt psykers, some xenos as well.

The fluff may not match perfectly, but it would allow for two distinct army books and fluff could be added to justify it.


A bit more detail of how I would organize things:
Legions:

HQ:
Abbadon (Black Legion) Terminators and cult terminators as troops
Kharn (World Eaters) Berzerkers are troops
Ahriman (Thousand Sons) Rubric Marines are troops
Typhus (Death Guard) Plague marines are troops
Lucius (Emperor's Children) noise marines are troops
Dark Apostle (Word Bearers) lifts limit of one posessed per 5 models in a squad
Warsmith (Iron Warriors) Havocs are troops
Talonmaster (Night Lords) Raptors are troops
Cultmaster (Alpha Legion) Certain units can gain infiltrate, move through cover, scoring
Chaos Lord
Chaos Sorcerer
Daemon Prince
Honor Guard (5 models in Terminator armor, take if lord or character in terminator armor)
Retinue (5 models in power armor. Can take if lord or character in power armor. Can upgrade to bikes, wings/jump pack)

Elite:
Berzerkers (mark of Khorne)
Plague Marines (mark of Nurgle)
Rubric Marines (mark of Tzeentch)
Noise Marines (mark of Slaanesh)
Dreadnought (can take marks)
Terminator (can take mark)
Cult Terminator (must take mark, new options based on mark taken)
Fabius Bile


Troops:
Chaos Marines (can take marks, 1 per 5 can upgrade to posessed)
Chaos Chosen Marines(veterans, like Marines but higher WS/BS, more wargear options)

Fast Attack:
Bike Squads (Doomrider as unit upgrade)
Raptors
Hell Talon fighter
Hell Blade fighter-bomber
Spawn
Lesser Daemons

Heavy Support
Land Raider
Defiler
Predator squadron
Vindicator
Obliterator unit
Havocs

Dedicated Transports:
Land Raider (for Cult Terminators)
Rhinos
Dreadclaw Drop Pods




Chaos Renegades:
HQ:
Huron
Cypher
Renegade General
Heretic Inquisitor
Apostate Preacher
Chaos Lord
Chaos Sorcerer
Daemon Prince

Elite:
Dreadnought
Terminator unit
Warband (mixed unit with options like Inquisitor retinues- warriors, preachers, daemonhosts, servitors, death cultists, xenos mercenaries, ect)
Chaos Psyker
Chaos Chosen Marines
Land Speeder squadron

Troops:
Chaos Space Marines
Traitor Guard
Cultists

Fast Attack:
Assault marines
Bikers
Posessed
Lesser Daemons
Rough Riders
Valkyrie/Vendetta (no squadron option)

Heavy Support:
Predator
Land Raider
Devastators/Havocs
Vindicator
Leman Russ squadron (no options)
Traitor Heavy Weapon squads

Dedicated transports:
Rhino
Razorback (for marines/chosen only)
Drop Pod
Chimaera (Traitor Guard only)

Theocracity
25-10-2011, 04:57
Interesting stuff Wes. I like most of it, though I was thinking of a slightly different kind of separation.

My separation between the two was based more on the rumors we've heard that indicate that the current Renegades dex is staying the same, with a WD or extended FAQ update. Since that would preclude the inclusion of Traitor Guard (as much as I'd like them), the general split I was thinking is:

Chaos Renegades:

This book would represent the scattered war bands and renegade groups, as well as the catch-all of the Black Legion. This includes Cults (since they don't fight as their Legions anymore), and more recent marines who have gone traitor. Their HQs are Chaos warlords, and their gear is a mix of marked Chaos powers and more modern Space Marine gear. This would be used for people building World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousands Sons or Emperor's Children lists, as well as more recent renegades or general "might makes right" warlords.

Chaos Legions:

This would represent the ancient veterans who remain devoted to their Legion (Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Night Lords). More powerful stat lines for the troops to represent their status as ancient vets, more specialized Chaos-driven war gear and options to represent their marshaled powers, and HQ that's more specialized than generic Chaos lords (Warmasters, Dark Apostles, etc). Depending on the Legion selection, you get different focuses (Word Bearers get better demons and cultists, Alpha Legion could get infiltration and traitor guard, Iron Warriors get better war machines, etc). This list might be a bit more like the GK, in the sense that it represents those who have been fighting the long war and would have access to the greatest weapons of the Warp.

I'm not sure which makes more sense, but I think it'll be interesting to see what path GW takes.

Excessus
25-10-2011, 07:58
Wes, I don't like the fact that SC:s have to be taken to get the legion effects. It would be more neatly implemented like "sagas" of the SW. Take a combat doctrine on the lord and the benefits will come as well, and you can just have the SC:s have the proper doctrines of "their" legion.

The retinue have to be able to be a cult option for the four cult armies.

Also, I'd probably put in a troops choice called:

0-1 Chaos Cultists
guardsman stats, las/autoguns or pistols and ccw, flak or mesh armour, options for special weapons and icons. Alpha Legion removes the 0-1...

...or something...

Mit Gas
25-10-2011, 11:54
Interesting stuff Wes. I like most of it, though I was thinking of a slightly different kind of separation.

My separation between the two was based more on the rumors we've heard that indicate that the current Renegades dex is staying the same, with a WD or extended FAQ update. Since that would preclude the inclusion of Traitor Guard (as much as I'd like them), the general split I was thinking is:

Chaos Renegades:

This book would represent the scattered war bands and renegade groups, as well as the catch-all of the Black Legion. This includes Cults (since they don't fight as their Legions anymore), and more recent marines who have gone traitor. Their HQs are Chaos warlords, and their gear is a mix of marked Chaos powers and more modern Space Marine gear. This would be used for people building World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousands Sons or Emperor's Children lists, as well as more recent renegades or general "might makes right" warlords.

Chaos Legions:

This would represent the ancient veterans who remain devoted to their Legion (Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Night Lords). More powerful stat lines for the troops to represent their status as ancient vets, more specialized Chaos-driven war gear and options to represent their marshaled powers, and HQ that's more specialized than generic Chaos lords (Warmasters, Dark Apostles, etc). Depending on the Legion selection, you get different focuses (Word Bearers get better demons and cultists, Alpha Legion could get infiltration and traitor guard, Iron Warriors get better war machines, etc). This list might be a bit more like the GK, in the sense that it represents those who have been fighting the long war and would have access to the greatest weapons of the Warp.

I'm not sure which makes more sense, but I think it'll be interesting to see what path GW takes.


Seriously? You put the vanilla legions in the legions sections but the truly perverted legions who devolved into cults not? Really? :eyebrows:

logan054
25-10-2011, 12:52
A possible good way to go imo would be like how special characters open up certain-builds, except instead of special characters - generic customisable legion specific HQ's, and instead of limited "blah blah takes blah blah as troops" it opens up optional specialised units that only X or Y legion can take.

So basically you want like World easters lord, emperors children lord, etc, I think I would be easier to have just one Chaos lord option and then upgrades listed for each legion with their rules printed on a different page. I hope GW doesn't make the mistake of forcing you to take Kharn the betrayer if you want a world eaters/Khorne army.

Personally I want to see things like terminator armour being useful on characters (not just chaos), options comparable to space marines, I want to see the things like the MoT/thousand sons redone so they make more sense. Dreadnoughts certainly need a major look at, differently they marks like the contemptor dreads, why can't they be possessed? I would like to see more preheresy tech in the traitor legions, perhaps their own versions of the predators.

Deathclaw pods would be very cool, maybe chaos terminators should be more like Paladins? Thousand son Chosen should all be sorcerers? maybe even chaos legions should have the preferred enemy rule against space marines?

Theocracity
25-10-2011, 12:53
Seriously? You put the vanilla legions in the legions sections but the truly perverted legions who devolved into cults not? Really? :eyebrows:

As you said, Legions who'd devolved into Cults.

I'm not saying that's the way to go, but I'm trying to figure it out based on the rumors we have. They stated that the current dex would stay on as a Renegades dex, and a Legions dex would be added. Now unless you're going to copy-paste Renegades into Legions, I don't see how that kind of a division works unless you're going to make the two distinct codices with their own distinct sets of units.

EDIT: Hmm, more recent rumors from ghost21 contradict that theory. If they're not keeping Renegades as it stands, then my division doesn't make as much sense.


the first thing i have to say is that there are 2 chaos books planed
one more renagade based the other legion based the legion one will be that, dudes who are 10000 years old kicking ass n taking names

there "may" be a inquisitor whos gone bad but really expect new guys in the renegade one

its lost and the damned influenced... but it has other options....

Korraz
25-10-2011, 12:59
What I want: Something that makes the Chaos Players shut up already.
What I'd like to see: Everything rolled into one book, with Veteran Abilities back, God Specific Marines and Legion Veteran Chaos Space Marines made incredibly expensive but with better stats/abilities than GK, Instability back for Demons and Mutants and Renegades forming the "regular" backbone of the force (with, of course, the option to play pure Marines, pure Renegades and pure Demons)

smellyhippy
25-10-2011, 16:29
I thought of this the other day, it's a predator variant that would be chaos only.
The Predator Avenger, first developed by the Iron warriors legion towards the end of the great crusade to counter the heavily armoured troops and beasts of the S'cred Cluster is now only found amongst the forces of the original nine traitor legions, their loyalist counterparts long having been lost or destroyed.
Originally mounted with the turret mounted Olympia IIa pattern Plasma blaster, the Avenger was named so after the fall of the last stronghold of the S'cred, avenging the almost complete destruction of the 15th grand company and the 62nd expedition fleet six years earlier.
This success against heavily armourered opponents led to most legions adopting it's use, though the scarity of opponents against which it was need meant their numbers were never that great, the Iron salamanders having the most, 77 and 32 respectively.
During the heresy, both sides sought to increase production of the Avenger, yet following Isstavan, Tallahan and Terra, combined with Avengers becoming high priority targets to both sides,led to the destruction of all loyalist examples, apart from the Salamaders "Fire of Nocturne" which since M33.8916 has not been roused to war, and all attempts to copy of it have failed.
Due to it's plasma blaster, the Avenger cannot take lascannon sponsons, though heavy flamer and heavy bolter sponsons have been sighted, as have the heavy Havok launcher sponsons. Most examples however have no sponsons, extra armour plates fitted in place, a practice adopted to try and preserve predator. It is unknown how many exist amongst the traitor legions, though it seems production does take place in small numbers, and they have been sighted in every traitor legion bar the death guard legion.
Predator Avenger 90pts
BS:4 F:13 S:12 R:10 Tank
Plasma Blaster R:30 S:7 AP:2 Heavy:3, Small blast
May take heavy flamer sponsons or Heavy Bolter sponsons 5pts, or heavy Havok Launchers at 15pts, it may also take any other tank upgrades in the chaos space marine codex.
Heavy Havok Launcher Krack range:36, S:7 AP:3 Heavy 2, Frag Range:36, S:5 AP:4 Heavy 3, Small blast.
WHilst completely new warmachines would be nice, a chaos predator variant would be nice and I thought what predator variant style did loyalists not have? an anti infantry armour variant. Marks for tanks would be nice, and as people have said, cultists as well, make chaos more than a watered down loyalist marine codex.

plus maybe a landraider avenger along the lines of the aeries, bu fitting in as an small unit/hq only kind of transport choice. ie t/l lazcannon sponsons as normal but this plama blaster replacing the heavy bolters & a reduced carry capacity to 6 (as it's hardly a demolisher cannon after all) :evilgrin:

Mit Gas
25-10-2011, 16:32
As you said, Legions who'd devolved into Cults.

I'm not saying that's the way to go, but I'm trying to figure it out based on the rumors we have. They stated that the current dex would stay on as a Renegades dex, and a Legions dex would be added. Now unless you're going to copy-paste Renegades into Legions, I don't see how that kind of a division works unless you're going to make the two distinct codices with their own distinct sets of units.

EDIT: Hmm, more recent rumors from ghost21 contradict that theory. If they're not keeping Renegades as it stands, then my division doesn't make as much sense.

Sorry but that is totally retarded of them in my book. Chaos doesn't need multiple dexes but one somewhat decent one. As for the legions who devolved into cults - they, if anyone, should get their own dex, not vice versa as they deviate much more from the norm than the vanilla legions. Although I also don't see a need for that. Give us cultists, rules for all legions (and if it's just one page per legion, that's more than enough) and please don't make them conjoined with special characters. I don't want to have to field special characters just to get rubrics or noise marines as troops. :mad:

Excessus
25-10-2011, 16:51
It's funny how the 3.5 dex with more fluff and rules for all the legions and god-specific lists was actually SMALLER than the current dex...

Dominatrix
25-10-2011, 17:08
It's funny how the 3.5 dex with more fluff and rules for all the legions and god-specific lists was actually SMALLER than the current dex...

More tragic than funny really but a nice observation anyway. Smaller in page count yes, but it was crammed with rules. Comparing it to its 4th edition successor is like comparing an old copy of white dwarf when it was still a hobby magazine (insert 3.5 edition dex here) to the current trend of glorified catalog (4th edition dex).

To be honest although I think that doing justice to all the legions, and by that I mean a good amount of fluff for each, new units etc., would require more than one codex, I doubt it will happen. If GW can't do them justice however at the very least their presence should be acknowledged and they should be made once again the focus of a chaos codex instead of the renegade crap of 4th edition.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
25-10-2011, 17:54
Two cool looking lists...



My Chaos Force is Word Bearer themed, but I WANT that renegades list. Weird psykers/daemonhosts, evil inquisitors, elite marines and meatshield cultists? Throw a Greater Daemon option in there (I like my greater daemon) and I would buy that book in a heartbeat.

I hope cultists make an appearance in the new Legions book. Part of the character of the traitor legions is their use of mixed force armies. Unlike the loyalists, they never split up their military structure. Plague marines with infected zombie cultists, Slannesh marines sacrificing slaves, Tzeentch thralls... Seems like a mutant/cultist entry has as much of a place in the Legions book as it would in the Renegades book.

ashc
25-10-2011, 18:38
I know, i think my heart lies with the potential renegade list, but what to do for now, i do not know :(

Jind_Singh
25-10-2011, 18:38
What I want, as a huge fan of chaos in the 40k genre...

Mission Statement:To have a single, integrated book that will allow me to fully explore the nature of Chaos in the Imperium of mankind. I want a book that allows me to satisfy my gaming needs to build:

Founding Traitor Legions: With specific rules/army list options for the Traitor Chapters, perhaps the ability to unlock special Characters when taking a Legion. Now that the Horus Heresy has been with us there is a LOT of source material.

Cultists: The ability to use renegade Guardsmen, mutants, psykers, in the army list. I DO NOT SIMPLY WANT an Imperial Guard army with marks of Chaos - so I don't need access to the weapons of war that define the IG - but their troopers with transports (like Chimeras) is fine, as well as some heavy weapon teams, Ogryns, etc. I also want beastmen back - mutated humans who fight with lasgun! BS 2, T4, weaker version of Orks in combat!

Chaos Renegades: Marines fallen to the powers of the Warp - joe blow Marines with spikey helmets!



I would like to see access to drop pods of the FW style - I think they are called claw pods or something?

Better Dreadnought models - similar to the FW one but at the very least a plastic kit

Updated Raptors - current ones are outdated for my tastes

Give us Fine Cast Traitor Marines - but leave their arms off so we can combine them with plastic kits to make weapon load outs - but perhaps give us detailed should pads or something.

Give us an interesting take on summoning Daemons into the army via occult practices.

Give us better models overall! FW does an amazing job - they should look there for inspiration for Chaos.

Make Land Raiders cheaper as we don't get the Machine God rule - so not viable to pay 200pts for a Land Raider, make it a bit cheaper.

gwarsh41
25-10-2011, 19:02
I never thought I would say this, but I almost want them to take a few things from the DoW games. Having like a summoning circle that summons something like D6 daemons each turn.

smellyhippy
25-10-2011, 20:16
Make Land Raiders cheaper as we don't get the Machine God rule - so not viable to pay 200pts for a Land Raider, make it a bit cheaper.

....or perhaps making a "blessings of the daemon forge" or somesuch to act as equivelant at the current cost, bs3 instead of 4, possession included (hence the bs debuff) & may fire all weapons unless travelled at cruising speed?

Excessus
25-10-2011, 20:47
Make Land Raiders cheaper as we don't get the Machine God rule - so not viable to pay 200pts for a Land Raider, make it a bit cheaper.
We actually had something similar in the 3.5 codex, no real reason why the dark mechanicus wouldn't have a machine spirit in our LR:s...corrupted yes, but still there...

Eddie Chaos
26-10-2011, 20:05
I want some mutant fodder

Also I think there should be 4 kinds of retinue for your HQ:

Bodyguard (5 marines with upgrades)
Coven (5 weak psykers for Sorcerer lords)
Motley crew (like the court of the archon but for chaos lords: psyker, apprentice, warhounds, xenos creature, spawn)
Daemons (for Daemon princes)

AlphariusOmegon20
26-10-2011, 20:15
Well, we finally got drop pods and Hellblades for normal games now, thanks to FW, so let's see it in the next book.

Korraz
26-10-2011, 20:16
Make Land Raiders cheaper as we don't get the Machine God rule - so not viable to pay 200pts for a Land Raider, make it a bit cheaper.

On the contrary, make them more expensive.
You can't copypaste points values from one book to the other. And LRs should be quite rare for CSM.

I'd like to see Possessed for Vehicles back, though, and Marks for Possessed Vehicles. Mark of Khorne on a Possessed LR? Rage (always has to move towards the closest enemy unit and tankshock or ram it if possible), ignores Shaken and Stunned, may Reroll Dangerous Terrain, 4++ Save against Psy Powers and attacks with Psy Weapons, some other bonus.

Excessus
26-10-2011, 20:20
Rare? I was under the impression that LRs were more numerous during the crusade than they are "now"...

Gorbad Ironclaw
26-10-2011, 20:56
On the contrary, make them more expensive.
You can't copypaste points values from one book to the other. And LRs should be quite rare for CSM.

Point value based on rarity rather than in-game effect is not a good idea. You don't make things rare that way, you make them non-existent. If you want to make something rare then reduce the options for taking it. Pricing it higher than the model can justify just means that people won't bother taking it at all.
It would also lead to quite the discrepancy between the point cost basic marines and things like IG and Orks. A 1 point Guardsmen/Ork fighting a several hundred point Marine isn't going to make for a fun game.

Korraz
26-10-2011, 22:41
Rare? I was under the impression that LRs were more numerous during the crusade than they are "now"...

And that was... 11 000 years ago. Nonwithstanding those fused with their armors, most renegades don't have their old equipment anymore.


Point value based on rarity rather than in-game effect is not a good idea. You don't make things rare that way, you make them non-existent. If you want to make something rare then reduce the options for taking it. Pricing it higher than the model can justify just means that people won't bother taking it at all.
It would also lead to quite the discrepancy between the point cost basic marines and things like IG and Orks. A 1 point Guardsmen/Ork fighting a several hundred point Marine isn't going to make for a fun game.

Hence part one, "you can't copypast points values."
You have to look at the whole codex. And since your average Legion CSM should outshine a GK by far, they have to lose out somewhere. And frankly, I'd rather see less vehicles in a CSM army than having them reduced to bog standard Marines.

RunepriestRidcully
26-10-2011, 23:04
So what happens to anyone who already has a land raider?
Land Raiders are supposed to be rare for loyalists as well, so I guess they could do with a points hike or restriction too, the same could be said for plasma technology (though it can be argued plasma pistols already pay this.) what about Terminator armour for everyone bar the dark angels?
I agree that an average legion marine should outshine loyalists, though I'd argue the same could should be said for the vehicles they employ. So yes make legion marines and vehicles more expensive then their loyalist counter parts, but make them superior in their stats and abilities , perhaps give legino land raiders, predators and Havoc squads a rule similar to the long fangs fire control and an extra point of armour on each side for non land raider tanks.
A chaos legion (and eldar) force should be small, just as much or more so then the grey knights, but each model should be powerful enough to show why the imperium, even with chapters upon chapters of marines, is only just managing to hold the tide as the 41st millennium draws to a close...

Korraz
26-10-2011, 23:50
So what happens to anyone who already has a land raider?


Nothing? I never said you should remove them from the book.

Excessus
27-10-2011, 01:22
If you make them more expensive the internal balance in the book will be affected and you won't see a single chaos LR until the 7th ed codex...

ashc
27-10-2011, 09:40
If you make them more expensive the internal balance in the book will be affected and you won't see a single chaos LR until the 7th ed codex...

This. If anything, they need to be cheaper, or have some nifty daemonic rules to be appropriately balanced.

RunepriestRidcully
27-10-2011, 11:14
Just thought about marks, and came up with this:
Non cult marks:
Khorne: +1A, any psychic power targeted at them is nullified on a 5+, in addition they have a 5++ invun save against any wounds caused by psychic powers, taken before armour saves
Slaanesh:+I, Rending attacks, gain a 5+ close combat "dodge" save that may be taken even if armour saves are not allowed.
Tzeentch:5++, +1 to an existing invun, all shooting at the unit/vehicle suffer a -1 to hit , anyone who attempts a psychic test within 24" rolls 3 dice, any psycher without mark of Tzeentch on the board suffers perils if they roll a 9, any pscyher (friend or foe) who dies due to a perils of the warp is replaced with a chaos spawn under control of the chaos player.
Nurgle: +1T, -I, Any unit within 6" of the unit/vehicle suffers 3D6 S:2 AP:- attacks
Cult marks:
Khorne:+1A, all failed to hit rolls (shooting and combat) may be rerolled, any psychic powers targeting them are dispelled on a 3+, have a 3++ against psychic powers, furious charge.
Slaanesh: +2I, Rending, automatically pass's all leadership checks (minus psychic tests), 5++ "dodge" save in combat, gains fleet of foot.
Tzeentch: 5++, +1 to an existing invun, all shooting at the unit/vehicle suffer a -1 to hit, all successful to hit rolls against the unit must be re rolled, all enemy psychers must roll 3D6 for psychic test and suffer perils on any roll of a double or roll of a nine, if a triple is rolled, remove the psycher and place the small blast marker over their last position, all models under it take a S:3 AP:3 hits, all tanks under the template are automatically stunned, if in a transport, all other models in the transport take a S:4 AP:2 hit and the transport suffers a penetrating hit.
Nurgle:+1T, -1I, all enemy models within 12" take 3d6 S:3 AP:6 hits, all close combat attacks gain the poisened (4+) rule.
it mainly started with the whole "how to get Tzeentch's mark right" and then it spread to the other marks, included some psychic defence, to try and make the gifts of the gods something that reflects the infernal bargain made for them.
I have not given nurgle cult units feel no pain as there is a strong argument for each cult getting it, and so if I gave it to them would give it to all the others as well and feel no pain is common enough as it is

Cheexsta
27-10-2011, 23:14
All I want is for my Legion army to actually feel like a Legion army. I'm tired of my World Eaters elites choices being decidedly worse in combat than my bread-and-butter troops.

At the moment, my Terminators and Chosen are limited to support roles. If I gear them up for combat, they become a liability (they're no match for the elite assault units in other armies!). This just doesn't feel right.

If GW fixes this, I'll be happy; anything else will just be gravy.

Count_Orlock
28-10-2011, 02:59
All I want is for my Legion army to actually feel like a Legion army. I'm tired of my World Eaters elites choices being decidedly worse in combat than my bread-and-butter troops.

At the moment, my Terminators and Chosen are limited to support roles. If I gear them up for combat, they become a liability (they're no match for the elite assault units in other armies!). This just doesn't feel right.

If GW fixes this, I'll be happy; anything else will just be gravy.

Yes, yes and OH YES. Please, I want a REAL Cult Army again. It's not fun that my Thousand Sons Psykers are no better than any other Psyker out there. Probably worse since he doesn't provide any psychic defense. Please, I want to field a proper Cult Army again. That would actually make me want to play 40k again.

RunepriestRidcully
28-10-2011, 09:35
^^^^^this, at the moment, Thousand sons are worse then Space wolves at psychic abilities (and any other loyalist psyker as well.) And it would be nice if I could get rubric anything other then troops, even if it was as a retinue for a sorcerer.

Excessus
28-10-2011, 11:52
I've always thought the 3d ed change to Thousand Sons was awful and illogical. Let them have special and heavy weapons, and grenades...

Count_Orlock
28-10-2011, 23:46
I've always thought the 3d ed change to Thousand Sons was awful and illogical. Let them have special and heavy weapons, and grenades...

Yeah, I never really understood why they could pick up a Meltagun or a Heavy Bolter. Here's hoping for at least a couple of Special/Heavy weapons in the next book.

Beppo1234
29-10-2011, 16:27
On the rarity of LRs: the warp is immaterial, time does exist there, so the loss of LRs through attrition is irrelevant as far as chaos is concerned. 10000000 LRs could pop out of the warp at any given moment

Finn
29-10-2011, 18:53
On the rarity of LRs: the warp is immaterial, time does exist there, so the loss of LRs through attrition is irrelevant as far as chaos is concerned. 10000000 LRs could pop out of the warp at any given moment

Actually, the way I see it, on average the Warp's time progresses at the same rate. If time is variable there, then it could just as easily go faster in the Warp as it could slower. GW just uses it as a plot hole plugger to explain why there are "10,000 year old" baddies running around. Even though in the semi-canonical HH books it says SMs are probably functionally immortal anyway.

But yes, I agree that making LRs even more rare for Chaos would be a bad move. Unless there were a feasible way to replicate or obviate its (necessary) role as the sole assault vehicle.

So...Chaos Storm Raven? I jest, I kid. :cheese:

Grand Master Raziel
29-10-2011, 19:33
This. If anything, they need to be cheaper, or have some nifty daemonic rules to be appropriately balanced.

What, like being immune to Shaken and Stunned results and being 10pts cheaper than a loyalist LR? That'd be pretty awesome. Oh, wait...:p

Webwolf
29-10-2011, 20:38
I would like to see a Codex: Chaos instead of Codex: Chaos Space Marine. A Codex with several different units, like Beastmen, Mutants, Traitor Guardsmen, Daemons, Cultists and CSM.

Beppo1234
30-10-2011, 03:54
I would like to see a Codex: Chaos instead of Codex: Chaos Space Marine. A Codex with several different units, like Beastmen, Mutants, Traitor Guardsmen, Daemons, Cultists and CSM.

Me too, an all in one chaos book. CSM, Traitors, and demons all in one with hq choices determining 'what count as' for units. Allowing for a large mix of armies

Warsinger
30-10-2011, 21:43
I think that psychic powers need to be revamped. Why is it in 40K books and history psykers can cause immense damage, yet in the game they aren't that amazing. I liked the thrall wizards in the 4th edition book: having my malevolent sorcerer sacrifice his psyker minions felt very chaos-like. The chaos powers need to be improved. If the Chaos Gods are effectively the warp, then surely chaos psykers should be able to use the power to greater effect (but not necessarily safer) than Imperial psykers. I don't know. It seems to make more sense to replace a sorcerer with a squad of havocs or something for all the damage they can do.

Isegrinns
31-10-2011, 02:04
Hey fellow cultists!

I support the idea of marked HQs and the ability to have some special slots as standard slots. Worked great on 3rd, should also work in future editions.

A combination of the 2nd Edition Codex with the 3rd Edition Codex could work out fine, I guess. As mentioned.

Basically what I feel would be nice are some special armed tanks.
IE:
- a Land Raider with double Reaper ACs on the sponsons and more transport capacity as assault tank, compare-able to the Crusader. (Yes, I want one, too!)
-the same options for additional wargear for Chaos LR as the loyal LR.
-Cult engines, like LR/Preds with slaneeshy sonic weapons, HBs with Tzeentch Inferno ammo, khornate special AP ammo.... You name it, chaotic stuff.
:)

Also standard troops which are tougher then they are now. Like spending aeons of years fighting and not improving my fighting skills? Cīmon!

Indirect firing capacity would be decent, some kind of Chaos artillery. Or be able to buy such an ability for the Defiler again. At least for shooty armies like Iron Warriors.

Some cavallery. Like those Space Wolves riding on wolves, having Zerkers riding on some daemonic.... whatever you name them.
(And having also T6 & A5, hehe!)

Something speedy with heavy weapons. Marines have their Speeders and Trikes. I want some of that, too.

I want my fluff back!

Make it short: new īDex.
This time from someone who LIKES Chaos!
:P

Finn
31-10-2011, 11:35
I think that psychic powers need to be revamped. Why is it in 40K books and history psykers can cause immense damage, yet in the game they aren't that amazing. I liked the thrall wizards in the 4th edition book: having my malevolent sorcerer sacrifice his psyker minions felt very chaos-like. The chaos powers need to be improved. If the Chaos Gods are effectively the warp, then surely chaos psykers should be able to use the power to greater effect (but not necessarily safer) than Imperial psykers. I don't know. It seems to make more sense to replace a sorcerer with a squad of havocs or something for all the damage they can do.

Know what I'd like to see? A couple of the powers from Dawn of War ;). Chains of Torment has a place (S3 hit to a each model in a unit, and they move through dangerous/difficult for a turn?), and Corruption could be cool.

I actually think psykers on the whole shouldn't be super powerful. In the fluff they do tons of damage, but in gaming terms if you have psykers who can blow up an entire army in the course of a couple of minutes...it would just become a matter of whoever goes first wins, or whoever fails a psychic test loses. I like psykers as they are, I just think they need a bit more diversity in powers to choose from. Again, I think whoever writes up the powers should have a look through various fantasy universe spells if they can't come up with 8-10 unique spells per codex without extra inspiration.

Draconis
31-10-2011, 14:44
Yeah, but I'd like them to be equal to the other psykers. I mean, look how good the SW rune priests are?

Hrogoff the Destructor
31-10-2011, 15:19
Some cavallery. Like those Space Wolves riding on wolves, having Zerkers riding on some daemonic.... whatever you name them.

Khorne berserkers on juggernauts would be great. I always wanted to do a chosen squad on them in the old 3.5 book for my Khorne list.

Bunnahabhain
31-10-2011, 16:08
I really, really don't want another codex with powerful psykers in, at the moment.

There are too many forces with no psychic defences. The game simply isn't balanced around psykers being that powerful. I know assorted flavours of loyalists have better powers, live with it.

I'd love to see an all in one chaos book, in an all new 6th ed. Integrate psychic powers better, price them better, build defense mechanisms in ( or price forces without appropriately for this weakness), and then you can have top grade psykers again.

Okuto
31-10-2011, 16:38
IMO Chaos marine psykers should be slapping our loyalist pig borthers ****......rune priest have insanely stupidly powerful powers and most armies can't even do anything about it...

I really don't want Psykers to be very strong in 40k in general, it should always be supportive ala Eldar, I already have to put up with magic-hammer in fantasy, stay out of my 40k

Kijamon
31-10-2011, 17:03
Played a nurgle themed army in a tournament yesterday. The poor guy was kicked all over the place and it was me v him for last place.

I jaws of the world wolfed his nurgle demon prince away, his 2 x 7 squads of plague marines were super fluffy but no longer get bonuses. His summoned demons are not as good as plague bearers should be.

Typhus was fairly decent but my anti psyker ability cost him when he tried to use his auto cast ability.

In the end it was a bit of a spanking and that's with him taking FNP rolls when he shouldn't have (mark of nurgle is like a bike and not a permanent toughness boost) and counting some troops as fearless when they weren't. I swamped him with shots and his army was picked apart.

I'd love to see a return to the bonus for people who field the favoured numbers of their patron god.

Finn
31-10-2011, 20:01
Played a nurgle themed army in a tournament yesterday. The poor guy was kicked all over the place and it was me v him for last place.

I jaws of the world wolfed his nurgle demon prince away, his 2 x 7 squads of plague marines were super fluffy but no longer get bonuses. His summoned demons are not as good as plague bearers should be.

Typhus was fairly decent but my anti psyker ability cost him when he tried to use his auto cast ability.

In the end it was a bit of a spanking and that's with him taking FNP rolls when he shouldn't have (mark of nurgle is like a bike and not a permanent toughness boost) and counting some troops as fearless when they weren't. I swamped him with shots and his army was picked apart.

I'd love to see a return to the bonus for people who field the favoured numbers of their patron god.

He got unlucky with that Prince :p.

And yeah, a bonus for the favoured number would be nice.

Robot Unicorn
31-10-2011, 20:26
I really, really don't want another codex with powerful psykers in, at the moment.

There are too many forces with no psychic defences. The game simply isn't balanced around psykers being that powerful. I know assorted flavours of loyalists have better powers, live with it.

I'd love to see an all in one chaos book, in an all new 6th ed. Integrate psychic powers better, price them better, build defense mechanisms in ( or price forces without appropriately for this weakness), and then you can have top grade psykers again.

So.. Chaos should be denied powerful psykers/sorcerors - which is absolutely fluff appropriate - because of the "flaws" of other codices? Yeah, no. We'll pass, thanks. Balancing codices against other books, rather than internally, is probably one of the more naive ideas I've read on here. :rolleyes:

That being cleared up, I'd like to see sorcery get put onto the level that it belongs. Staggeringly destructive capabilities, with an increased chance of failure above a normal psychic test. Representing the fickle and Chaotic nature of the demons who make the pacts for power in the first place. They should use fantasy for inspiration for spells, if they're out of ideas above initiative tests and watered down lascannons.

I also would like to see crude versions of honor-guard attached to Sorceror's, in the way of cabals/covens. Cultists who work like tokens, allowing the caster to spend their lives in order to increase the power of his spells. That would be awesome, unique to Chaos, and fitting with the theme.

Finn
31-10-2011, 21:52
My problem with "staggeringly powerful" spells that have an increased failure chance is that you'll end up with something like the current Possessed.

Chaos doesn't mean random. Chaos, if anything, should be a more reliable route (if pyrrhic - because who really wants a horn growing out of their eye?) to power for the corrupt.

Again, I don't think there should be supernuke powers. It's another kind of power creep: you end up with powers that, if they go off, win you the game...while if you fail one, you lose.

Take a look at the current edition of Fantasy's magic system. We should not want that for 40k psychic powers.

Charistoph
31-10-2011, 22:37
My problem with "staggeringly powerful" spells that have an increased failure chance is that you'll end up with something like the current Possessed.

Chaos doesn't mean random. Chaos, if anything, should be a more reliable route (if pyrrhic - because who really wants a horn growing out of their eye?) to power for the corrupt.

Again, I don't think there should be supernuke powers. It's another kind of power creep: you end up with powers that, if they go off, win you the game...while if you fail one, you lose.

Take a look at the current edition of Fantasy's magic system. We should not want that for 40k psychic powers.

I don't know, it's possible it might work...

Say, for example, half the spells are obscenely powerful, but if you roll a double (with the exception of 12) on your Psychic Test, the model becomes a Spawn. Simple, elegant, fits the fluff, and to the point. On 12, the model gets hit by that SC Bloodthirster (bad luck there, mate).

totgeboren
31-10-2011, 22:44
I don't know, it's possible it might work...

Say, for example, half the spells are obscenely powerful, but if you roll a double (with the exception of 12) on your Psychic Test, the model becomes a Spawn. Simple, elegant, fits the fluff, and to the point. On 12, the model gets hit by that SC Bloodthirster (bad luck there, mate).

I think that was the exact problem Finn was trying to point out.
The game will be decided by the roll a particular ability. It like 2:ed Orks, where you as an opponent didn't really need to be at the table. If the ork player rolled good, you got shot to bitz, if he rolled bad, he destroyed himself. Either way your input as an opponent wasn't really necessary to decide the outcome of the game.

Units that work like that are simply no fun to face. They can be fun to use however, but they are more fitting of a 'single player' settings rather than what 40k is intended for.

Excessus
31-10-2011, 23:01
Hmm, at the very least I think that either sorcerers or chaos as a whole should get some sort of psychic defense. Why don't the sorcerers have hoods? Why isn't the presence of the warp damaging for the opponent's psykers? If given to sorcerers it would be a bit balancing and would mean people would grab one instead of a prince...

I also think they should grab a few ideas of psychic powers from DoW for us. For example the thing where your opponents can't see anything would be awesome(night fighting for opponents in their next turn or something)! Would go quite a way to solve our vulnerability towards long range firepower!

Finn
31-10-2011, 23:23
Definitely, there should be some form of psychic defense in the book. I don't want them to just port the psychic hood over, but perhaps something more like the Eldar's Runes of Warding (or is it Witnessing? with the increased Perils chance).

Something like this:
The Warp's Vengeance, or other suitable name
Any model that targets a friendly Chaos unit within 12" of the bearer of the Warp's Vengeance with a psychic power suffers a S6 AP2 hit on a successful psychic test (or if no test is taken).
In addition, should the model suffer a Perils of the Warp hit (whether the test was successful or not), the Perils hit ignores invulnerable saves in addition to its usual effects.

Of course it could be reworded to also capture indirect effects, such as Eldritch Storm or Gift of Chaos. But I think something of a "damage return" psychic "defense" would fit Chaos well.

Eddie Chaos
01-11-2011, 01:54
I've always enjoyed turning people into spawn but it doesn't happen enough. So please GW make that power OP (ordinance template spawnings?)

Oh and make some of my own units (chosen?) spawn if they fail LD tests or something.

Isegrinns
01-11-2011, 02:36
How about that:
if the opponent lost his perils-of-the-warp-test, he is eaten by a daemon.
If the chaos player has some unsummoned daemons in reserve, one unit of them or one greater daemon manifest themself/itself in the psykers place.
:D