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asphodel
17-10-2011, 20:00
How much travel (if any) is there between the 5 Segmenta? Obviously the Black Ships must cross them to drop their live cargo off at earth, but I'm especially curious about the likelihood of an IG regiment from Segmentum Solar being deployed in Obscurus or Tempestus. Does that happen, or is it more likely that a regiment would be recruited from within the Segmentum to meet a threat? If not, would it be more likely that a troop transport would get turned around in the warp and end up at the far end of another Seg?

From the few BL books I've read, and the DH core rulebook which I'm reading, it seems that travel between sectors is rare enough, let alone between Segmenta.

Actually, this raises another, unrelated question. The DH rulebook talks about warp travel sometimes taking huge amounts of time even at relatively small distances (i.e. within a subsector). If this is the case, how is it that the Black Ships aren't returning to earth with dessicated corpses instead of live psykers?

Scalebug
17-10-2011, 22:56
There is this 100 light years distance rule of thumb of raising Imperial Guard regiments for a particular conflict, defensive or offensive, to begin with, so I guess if you are on the edge of one segmentum you could be sent off into a neighbouring one. Or they could be part of a crusade against an enemy that are in control of worlds sitting across the segmentum-borders, or pursue them as they fall back, things like that.

Majority of guardsmen will probably never leave the segmentum their homeworld is in though.

As for the black ships and time-warp effects; Sure, it could happen, but belonging to the Inquisition, the ships will be the best ones available, including using sanctioned Dark Age or Xeno-tech, piloted by the top of the class Navigators from the best houses, so it is probably less likely to happen than with other long-range travellers.

Phunting
17-10-2011, 23:17
Actually, this raises another, unrelated question. The DH rulebook talks about warp travel sometimes taking huge amounts of time even at relatively small distances (i.e. within a subsector). If this is the case, how is it that the Black Ships aren't returning to earth with dessicated corpses instead of live psykers?That all depends on how long it takes in the ship. Even if centuries have passed between a ship entering and exiting the warp in real-space, it is normally significantly faster in the warp.

As you're reading the roleplay books, I recommend Rogue Trader, which goes into warp travel. That puts crossing a Segmentum at at least 100 days in the warp, and on average 12 times the ammount in real space. So even in this best case scenario, that puts crossing a Segmentum at 3 1/4 years real-time.

But both of these reckonings are very rough and can be increased or decreased as needs be.

edit: and that '100+' days should in my mind be a lot more on the '+' considering how tiny a sector is compared to a Segmentum, yet the same table gives 30-60 days for crossing a sector!

Dhurrin
18-10-2011, 00:41
The only regular travel between segmentums that I can think of would be Space Marines, we have numerous examples already such as the Space Wolves fighting the Tau.

Other than that... Even Inquisitors and Rogue Traders (the typical travelers) would only travel between sectors mostly, it would be quite rare for them to go beyond their segmentum

Gorbad Ironclaw
18-10-2011, 07:01
Other than that... Even Inquisitors and Rogue Traders (the typical travelers) would only travel between sectors mostly, it would be quite rare for them to go beyond their segmentum

But wouldn't that mostly just be because a segmentum is so damn big? I don't imagine that the actual borders are a real restriction. Just that unless you have a reason you don't generally engage in travelling through the Warp and much less randomly decided to go ultra-longhaul.

So for someone operating right at the border it probably happens quite often. For someone living in the middle of a segmentum it's unlikely to ever happen as why would they.

Dhurrin
18-10-2011, 07:07
But wouldn't that mostly just be because a segmentum is so damn big? I don't imagine that the actual borders are a real restriction. Just that unless you have a reason you don't generally engage in travelling through the Warp and much less randomly decided to go ultra-longhaul.

So for someone operating right at the border it probably happens quite often. For someone living in the middle of a segmentum it's unlikely to ever happen as why would they.

Of course definitely, that's what I meant. The only groups that I could possibly think of who would have a need of travelling such long distances as to go from one segmentum would be marines, inquisitors and rogue traders, and from that only marines would do it regularly

MagosHereticus
18-10-2011, 07:28
trips to terra are the most common reason to leave ones segmentum (unless your a space marine), i assume it would almost be required for any individual who considers themselves a somebody

azimaith
18-10-2011, 12:47
I think some people are confusing segmentums for sectors.
Segmentums are huge divisions of the entire galaxy while sectors or collections of multiple systems, while a system is a set of planets surrounding a star (or some analogous structure.)

From DH a sector can easily have hundreds of systems and a handful of actual habitable worlds and if we want to take real world analogies. Sol (our system) is about 1.29 parsecs (if my source is corect, so like 4.2 lightyears) from Proxima Centauri which is a nearby system. A very small sector would probably stretch some 20 light years. Segmentum Solar, which is the smallest of them all, would probably stretch easily 10,000 parsecs, something like 30,000 light years. Even at a light year a day (more than 300 times the speed of light) you'd cross it in like 82 years.

If we're talking about ultima segmentum, which encompasses a huge portion of the galactic plate it's many times that size and the sheer travel time would make thoughts of ever even reaching the midpoint of a segmentum without the time dilation of the warp within hundreds of generations a pipe dream.

In short, warp travel is freaking fast, segmentums are utterly incredibly huge, sectors are amazingly huge, and systems are huge areas of space. From what I've read about the pilgrimage to Terra, is that most don't make it within their life times.

Lord-Caerolion
18-10-2011, 13:53
Well, it's not like there are toll-booth's between each segmentum. They're rough outlines, with (I'd expect) some quite hazy borders.

greenmtvince
18-10-2011, 14:11
Although on the issue of Guard regiments crossing segmentum boundaries, the 23rd Elysian was presumably raised on their world in Segmentum Solar and went to fight on Tauros near the Tau Empire in the furthest reaches of Segmentum Ultima. A Cadian regiment from even farther away did the same. The old Armageddon campaign book listed regiments from all over the galaxy showing up in Segmentum solar, and I'm sure a similar number participated in the Eye of Terror.

azimaith
18-10-2011, 14:21
To be fair a lot of Cadian regiments may not even have actual people from Cadia in them, a lot of these ships are out of port for generations fighting wars, a Cadian regiment could just as easily be trained in the Cadian style but consist of people recruited from other worlds to fill in gaps. I can't see them going back to Cadia to replace their losses. I think this holds true for most any regiment.

Segmentums are very large areas and I think the speed and more importantly, the safety of traveling across them is more an issue of the navigators on board. What a regimental transport ship and a battle fleet might attempt a smaller trader houses or even Rogue Traders might never even dare to attempt.

SpaceTiger
18-10-2011, 16:28
Here is a link that states that the Imperium ships can travel across the galaxy, not using any special currents, in 1 year: How fast is Warhammer 40k FTL? (http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=188878)

Connor MacLeod
19-10-2011, 05:17
Sectors are basically self contained islands of humanity.. they seem to be the most practical level of inter-dependency (commerce, politics, government etc.) and administration by the Adeptus. You might have some larger regions composed of several sectors together, but that's it. That said it's not impossible or even unusual for travel across the galaxy or the segmentums to happen. Space Marines and the Inquisition can do it of course, but they are (as I understand it) usually restricted to specific regions of space (except for roaming Inquisitors or space-bound Chapters like the Fists or Fire Hawks).

There are Rogue traders for one, and as per the Space Wolf novels the Navigator Houses have extensive interests in trans-galactic commerce (they basically control it, since they control that sort of navigation as it is.) Such commerce is likely to involve shipping of key resources and minerals (To forge worlds and major industiral/Hive worlds) as well as the shipping of exotic, and expensive cargoes for the rich,w ealthy and powerful (exotic foods, pets, etc.)

From what I recall across the segmentum (or across the galaxy) is typically anywhere from weeks to years, depending on the route, the quality of the ship, and the quality of the navigator. Inquisition, Space Marine, and high end Naval (EG Segmentum Solar Navy) will generally be faster than civiilan/merchant ships.

Sai-Lauren
20-10-2011, 11:59
Basically, the question is: Is there interstellar migration of people in the Imperium?

Some of it will be institutional - military movements, (re)colonisation efforts and so on. Some will be enforced - refugees from conflict or global catastrophe and so on. And as already mentioned, some will be voluntary - pilgrimages and the like.

I personally believe that individuals can move between worlds too, so long as they've filled in the correct forms and submitted them to the Administratum (or bribed the right people), then it's possible for someone to buy passage on a vessel, or temporarily join a ships crew, working for their food and passage to another world, and so on. Whether they do it in one long-hop across the Imperium, or a series of shorter hops from system to system, depends on the vessels they can find, how much they can afford, and exactly how desperately they need to get off world, be it a criminal trying to get off world ahead of the local law enforcers, or young lovers trying to get off world ahead of her family.

And whilst it allows for smuggling and other criminal activity, it also allows government officials like Administratum clerks and Investigators, Inquisitors, Imperial Intelligence Agents, and even Officio Sabatorum and Officio Assasinorum operatives to get on and off world with minimal local attention.

Hrw-Amen
20-10-2011, 14:57
Also don't forget that a lot of IG regiments travel with a whole lot of baggage, which includes support staff and albeit unofficial partners. (Seems that way in the Ghosts anyway.) So the likely hood is that a lot of children will be around the regiment as it progresses through space from which recruits could be drawn over time to replace the fallen. So you could have a regiment from Cadia (Or wherever.) that is made up of people originating from that planet but of whom hardly any have ever been there as they were void born.

Connor MacLeod
20-10-2011, 18:58
Can people just choose to travel from one end of the galaxy to another just because they want to live somewhere else? Probably not. Not without owning your own ship or having license to one, and a good navigator. That means you have to be rich and well connnected (either politically or have an advantage like a Inquisitorial rosette or rogue trader charter for something higher than a sector)

That siad there is probably no real reason for migration to occur any farther than it has to. Colonists only have to travel from the nearest hive world to their destination (whatever planet it is - a forge world to become surplus workers, a new colony, etc.) Considering that most sectors have at least one major hive world (and several lesser hives), that really isn't all that far. A few score or a few hundreds of light years usually. Maybe way out on the fringes they migth have to travel farther, but I doubt more than a few thousand LY tops.

The only case where long-distance "migration" might happen is in the case of evacuating a system (such as has happened against Hive Fleet Kraken.) but that is hardly a usual case.

Remember as well that while the Imperium occupies quite a large volume of space it actually has only explored or occupied a part of that. There are wilderness zones, tracts of space controlled by Chaos or aliens, and havens for pirates that still exist, so developing their own little cluster of worlds (subsector or sector level) is both cheaper and easier than hauling people across the galaxy.

Edit: IG regiments could be hauled in from across the galaxy in emergencies,a nd I think this has happened, but only in very serious cases (Battle for armageddon, 13th Black Crusade, or the Tyrnaid incursions) and usually they only move troops within a segmentum (and usually only a part of the segmentum.) since the bulk of conflicts rarely spill outside of a sector or group of sectors.

The only other exception I can possibly think of, wher a segmentum wide (or greater) migration might occur are pilgrimmages. I believe those are a sanctioned means of transporting people from one planet to another, although it is done for purely religious purposes and you are expected to either die on the pilgrammige or complete it, and they can take decades (if not longer) especially if they're covering a large volume of space.

Smuggling might be another possibility, but it would be slow and probably not likely to go above segmentum level again.

I'll also point out the Imperium has very good reasons to be so restrictive in this regard: It's perhaps one of the most effective means they have of controlling crime, chaos cults, xenos infestations (Genestealers), plague outbreaks, and the like. If everryone and their uncle had starships (like in Star Wars) the Navy would never be able to contain an outbreak, and the devastation would be horrible. Control of starship traffic in and out of a system, especailly across large volumes of space, ensures that the Imperium can keep threats self contained as they erupt.

DapperAnarchist
20-10-2011, 20:19
RT:WH40K (the original book) said that the further you go, the less time it takes to cross each light year on average - though not so much that the travel time doesn't go up. Basically, a really really long warp journey is extremely dangerous, but you go very very fast relative to realspace.

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-10-2011, 12:02
Can people just choose to travel from one end of the galaxy to another just because they want to live somewhere else?

Hmm, I think it would actually depend a lot more on local regulation than Imperial regulations. But I would think the biggest stumbling block is going to be having the means to actually make such a move. Paying your way on a space ship is going to be expensive, and the more stuff you are taking with you the more expensive it's going to be. And of course then there are the whole issue of working out somewhere else you would want to go if you don't just want to hitch a ride at random. Maybe making some contacts to help you get established, etc. All of that will add up to only a small group of people with the means and knowledge to really move in any sort of structured trans-world capacity but I think the practical problems of it are going to be a much bigger hurdle to overcome than any sort of Imperial bureaucracy.


trips to terra are the most common reason to leave ones segmentum (unless your a space marine), i assume it would almost be required for any individual who considers themselves a somebody

I doubt that. It's going to be the tiniest fraction of people who actually go on a pilgrimage to Earth and I would imagine that most nobles, high officials, merchant princes, etc. have better things to do than spend years travelling the galaxy to see a bit ancient fortress and buy a t-shirt saying they had been there.

MagosHereticus
21-10-2011, 12:18
I doubt that. It's going to be the tiniest fraction of people who actually go on a pilgrimage to Earth and I would imagine that most nobles, high officials, merchant princes, etc. have better things to do than spend years travelling the galaxy to see a bit ancient fortress and buy a t-shirt saying they had been there.

only a tiny fraction of people ever leave their segmentum... also any buearocrat worth his salt will have an "I've been to EARTH! and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" t-shirt, if you haven't been to earth you're probably a nobody.

Sai-Lauren
21-10-2011, 14:44
Hmm, I think it would actually depend a lot more on local regulation than Imperial regulations. But I would think the biggest stumbling block is going to be having the means to actually make such a move. Paying your way on a space ship is going to be expensive, and the more stuff you are taking with you the more expensive it's going to be. And of course then there are the whole issue of working out somewhere else you would want to go if you don't just want to hitch a ride at random. Maybe making some contacts to help you get established, etc. All of that will add up to only a small group of people with the means and knowledge to really move in any sort of structured trans-world capacity but I think the practical problems of it are going to be a much bigger hurdle to overcome than any sort of Imperial bureaucracy.

Well, I doubt there's more than a fraction of a percentage of people in the Imperium that could afford to buy anything warp capable.

That said, there's still a lot of people (in numerical terms) that come into that group, and by the time you've considered the corporations (who were probably the first and biggest customers to buy warp-capable vessels at the dawn of the warp age, and havn't relinquished that position since), there's a lot of vessels around of all shapes and sizes - from multi-million tonne bulk haulers that need to be serviced in orbit, to several hundred tonne light freighters the size of the Millenium Falcon or the Serenity, that can land on something the size of a town square if need be, plus tankers, message couriers (for things too sensitive to trust to the Astropaths, or simply not time sensitive enough to be worth spending the money), liners and so on.

If the captain of a freighter can make a few extra credits by selling passage to another world to someone (with or without the owners knowledge or premission) - either to skim some extra pay for themselves or help pay for the running costs of the vessel (including paying off the massive cost of buying the thing in the first place), then they'll do it - a freighter doesn't need that large a crew - bridge, engineering and maybe a few deckhands if they need to move cargo around during the trip, and no matter how their accomodations are set out, there'll always be ways of trimming the crew down to reduce wages (double duties for example) and consumables costs, and double-occupying or hotracking beds etc, or setting up bunks if you have unused cargo space, to make space for passengers.

As for destinations, well, that depends on where you are - a rural world on the edge of a sector might only have vessels coming in occasionally, and only travelling back to the major worlds in the sector, whilst a sector capital or hiveworld could have vessels travelling in from the rest of the sector, or outside it - it's not inconceivable that you could leave the rural world as a passenger, arrive at a hive world, change ships and work your passage to the next sectors capital world, work a month on world to afford a ticket on to the next sector and so on.

Connor MacLeod
22-10-2011, 18:29
Cost seems to be the biggest overriding factor in the scale of travel - Navigators pretty much control all the long-distance (EG across the galaxy, or across the segmentum) trade, either through partial or through complete ownership of the vehicles, as well as the fact effective long distance travel is difficult (and slow) if you don't have a Navigator. Not to mention the further you travle, the more fuel and resources you expend. Thats why wealthy people can afford to import food or art or rare creatures from offowrld from great distances, but your average hab worker (or slum dweller) cannot. It's also why only certain people or organizations (like Inquisitors, high level Adeptus officials, Navigators, the military etc.) can frequently travel long distance - they either have no problem with wealth or influence, or they form part of the requirement.

Pilgrimmages as I said seem to be the one exception to this - and I will point out travelling to Terra (birthplace of the Imperium and of the God Emperor) is perhaps one of the biggest holy places in the Imperium, so it will naturally be a viable travle destination regardless of locale. This is only possible because such trips are subsidized by and carry the influence of the Ministorum, and they only do it because it furthers their own personal, religious agendas (and power.)