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Lord Shadowheart
18-10-2011, 13:06
Managed to lsoe both my mini rulebooks so I can't check.

A stonehorn with hunter riding it gets hit with purple sun/ pit of shades etc

Do I take an I test for both the hunter and stonehorn, or just use the highest?

I only ask as I was planning on giving a hunter riding one the I10 sword.

ewar
18-10-2011, 13:29
It's one test for the model on the highest iniative. I can't remember the wording of the sword - you should check whether it specifies in combat. There is a FAQ covering the modification of stats by magic items.

theunwantedbeing
18-10-2011, 18:40
Magical weapons only grant their bonus in combat. As per the rulebook FAQ I belive.
So you won't get the boosted initiative value from the sword at any time other than to determine when you attack in combat and whether an opponent will get re-rolls vs you due to ASF.

As for the Pit of Shades, it's a template so all parts get hit at the same time.
Presumably you'de take one test per part of the model able to be killed, so while on a monster mount you'de take one test for the rider and one test for the monster.
The mount wouldn't benefit from the riders initiative unless it specifically stated that only one test was made for the whole model.(which it may well do, I forget)

Tregar
18-10-2011, 18:45
I agree with TUB, template = all parts of the model hit, and all parts test on their own best value (so they don't get to borrow each other's better stats).

Lord Shadowheart
18-10-2011, 19:03
Magical weapons only grant their bonus in combat. As per the rulebook FAQ I belive.
So you won't get the boosted initiative value from the sword at any time other than to determine when you attack in combat and whether an opponent will get re-rolls vs you due to ASF.

As for the Pit of Shades, it's a template so all parts get hit at the same time.
Presumably you'de take one test per part of the model able to be killed, so while on a monster mount you'de take one test for the rider and one test for the monster.
The mount wouldn't benefit from the riders initiative unless it specifically stated that only one test was made for the whole model.(which it may well do, I forget)

Thought that might be the ruling, oh well, Thanks TUB :)

b4z
18-10-2011, 22:40
Otherwise we would have Initiative 5 War Hydras against Pit of Shades/Purple Sun :) :) :)

Aljoman
19-10-2011, 07:49
One test for the model at the highest value.

Q: If a Monster and Handlers unit is required to take a
characteristic test, which values can you use? (p73)
A: You can only use the monsters characteristics; the handlers
are ignored for this purpose.

Thats why the hydra gets done.

Q: When does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic give
that bonus?(p4)
A: Most weapons, including magic weapons, state when the
bonus is given. For example, a model with the Fencer’s Blades
will always have Weapon Skill 10 whilst a model with a great
weapon will only have +2 Strength when striking an enemy in
close combat. When a weapon does not say when the
characteristic bonus applies, then it only applies when striking,
or being struck, in close combat.

I assume fencers blade and the I10 weapon are worded the same. Edit: They are not in fact worded the same, Attacks for the weapon are at I10 clear as day.

Yamagawa
21-10-2011, 07:02
Silly question but does the same go for warmachines?
I.e: Using the Lore of Shadow and hitting a cannon with Penumbral Pendulum (essentially an I-testing cannonball), since warmachines always fail characteristic-test with the exception of T/Ld, does that mean its auto-inflict or do you still test on the crews I? Same goes for Purple Sun, is it auto-hit on the machine or do the crew have the initiative to sling the cannon on their shoulders and "HeeeeyOPP" out of harms way?

AMWOOD co
21-10-2011, 07:39
As a warmachine includes the crew in the same way a chariot does, if the rules for Warmachines say that they auto-fail, then you don't need to consider the crew at all, the test is failed.

As for the above posts, it is worth noting that there are currently 4 interpretations possible. First, I will define 'model' as the total model (rider and mount) and 'element' as an element that is wounded separately from another. So, in the case of a Character mounted on a chariot, the whole is the model, the character is one element, and the chariot another element (even though the chariot itself has multiple elements, but they are not wounded separately).
Each element will be affected and will test on their own initiative, suffering independent of eachother.
The entire model will take one test on the single highest characteristic and will live or die as an entirety.
Each element will be affected, taking each test on the highest initiative of the model. If any test is failed, the model as a whole is removed.
Each element will be affected, taking each test on the highest initiative of the model. Each element will be removed independent of each other.

I've seen arguements supporting each one, and none of them are outright contradicted (though several seem improper). I would guess the first to be the intention, but I wouldn't put a dime on what GW will say when they get around to it.

Aljoman
22-10-2011, 04:41
You are correct that a chariot with a character is one model, as is a ridden monster or a whole bunch of other things. All of those spells say each model affected takes a test and consequences happen if you fail to the model that took the test. Those are four ways a model with multiple elements (borrowing the term) could be affected by something but the spells are all talking about whole models.

On the subject of Penumbral Pendulum when a character and mount get hit do we think we randomize the hit? I don't think both get hit like a real cannon ball.

AMWOOD co
22-10-2011, 07:36
On the subject of Penumbral Pendulum when a character and mount get hit do we think we randomize the hit? I don't think both get hit like a real cannon ball.

It says to resolve it like a bouncing cannonball. There's no ambiguity to it; characters on mounts will take a hit and so will their mounts, just like a cannonball.

dementian
23-10-2011, 06:22
So Cavalry models that are forced to take an initiative test. (In my example it will be a unit of Chaos Knights taking an initiative test from a hellpits Avalanche of Flesh). The Chaos Knights will only take one initiative test on the Riders initiative right? Know the Chaos Knights are considered Cavalry unit so they should just use the highest initiative right?

What if a General/Captain of the Empire was given a horse mount? In this case does the General/Captain become a cavalry unit type and use only the highest initiative as well or can the Horse be targetted and killed/Would the horse need to take an initiative test as well as the rider?

AMWOOD co
23-10-2011, 08:08
You are correct that a chariot with a character is one model, as is a ridden monster or a whole bunch of other things. All of those spells say each model affected takes a test and consequences happen if you fail to the model that took the test. Those are four ways a model with multiple elements (borrowing the term) could be affected by something but the spells are all talking about whole models.

Unfortunately, the issue isn't that black and white. Flame Storm and Foot of Gork also state that affected 'models' take hits at a specific strength, but I don't think there would be any debate that the damage should be distributed as any other template attack, namely that it hits every part. So, the term 'model' when used in the rulebook can be ambiguous when dealing with mounted characters.


What if a General/Captain of the Empire was given a horse mount? In this case does the General/Captain become a cavalry unit type and use only the highest initiative as well or can the Horse be targetted and killed/Would the horse need to take an initiative test as well as the rider?

No. This discussion is in regards to characters who are mounted on creatures that can die separately from the character himself. A character who is Cavalry or Monstrous Cavalry is not at issue, take the best Initiative value among the parts, test once, and the model will live or die as a whole as it is intended.

Aljoman
24-10-2011, 06:31
Further Investigation was obviously needed. Ok I think I'm changing my position, seems to me that for all of those template spells all parts on a character and it's monstrous mount are hit. The tricky bit was separating the spells like Dwellers and the template spells I think, they get lumped together allot.

Penumbral Pendulum looks like it stops at walls and whenever it fails to kill a multi wound model as well.

AMWOOD co
24-10-2011, 17:51
Further Investigation was obviously needed. Ok I think I'm changing my position, seems to me that for all of those template spells all parts on a character and it's monstrous mount are hit. The tricky bit was separating the spells like Dwellers and the template spells I think, they get lumped together allot.

Penumbral Pendulum looks like it stops at walls and whenever it fails to kill a multi wound model as well.

It's a dicey issue, and there's a lot to say. I'm content with an 'I don't know what they meant but I'll be doing this for now' mentality. That seems to be what I'm doing with a great deal of these unresolvable issues.

As for the pendulum, if it acts completely like a cannonoball, you're right (except it's Monsters and Monstrous X models, not just multiwound. Sabretusks, for example, won't stop it).

belgarath97
30-10-2011, 15:00
One test for the model at the highest value.

Q: If a Monster and Handlers unit is required to take a
characteristic test, which values can you use? (p73)
A: You can only use the monsters characteristics; the handlers
are ignored for this purpose.

Note the Monsters and Handlers part. The Hunter on Stonehorn is not a monster and handler unit, it is a character on a monster mount. Which the BRB says both are effected by templates and must test separately.

For example a cannon shoots the Hunter and Stonehorn, you roll to wound both.

belgarath97
30-10-2011, 15:03
What if a General/Captain of the Empire was given a horse mount? In this case does the General/Captain become a cavalry unit type and use only the highest initiative as well or can the Horse be targetted and killed/Would the horse need to take an initiative test as well as the rider?

You cannot kill the mount for Cavalry or Monstrous Cavalry.

Aljoman
31-10-2011, 10:39
For example a cannon shoots the Hunter and Stonehorn, you roll to hit wound both.

Well you don't roll to hit but yes, the comment I made for that section was underneath referring to why the Hydra and why it doesn't use the Handlers I.

SilasOfTheLambs
03-11-2011, 23:51
Here's another scenario, since I don't want to post a whole new thread. We're told that you use the best initiative value available for multi-part models. Empire and Warriors of Chaos both have items available that make characters auto-pass tests on anything except leadership (the Crimson Amulet and Necrotic Phylactery, respectively). Can a multi-part model use "automatically passes" as the best value available, or must it (like a unit, per the FAQ) still take the test with the possibility of failure?

There's a weird middle ground here between a walking infantry model with one of those items on the one hand, and one in a large unit on the other.

GodlessM
04-11-2011, 17:41
I'm surprised there is so much confusion over this; it is the basic template rules after all, which dictate that if a character on a monster is hit by a template both parts are hit. So in the case of Pit of Shades roll one test for the Hunter and one test for the Stonehorn.

As for those comparing this with the Hydra, they are two different unit types with vastly different rules; no comparison.

AMWOOD co
04-11-2011, 18:35
Here's another scenario, since I don't want to post a whole new thread. We're told that you use the best initiative value available for multi-part models. Empire and Warriors of Chaos both have items available that make characters auto-pass tests on anything except leadership (the Crimson Amulet and Necrotic Phylactery, respectively). Can a multi-part model use "automatically passes" as the best value available, or must it (like a unit, per the FAQ) still take the test with the possibility of failure?

To answer this, I would direct you first to p105 - Ridden Monsters and Special Rules, which says to follow the rules on p82. Then I would point out that multipart models don't share special rules. So, if a monster and rider are each forced to take a test, then they do not share eachothers rules (with 5 noted exceptions).

Now, if there is a single test to take for the whole model (eg. Net of Amyntok)... I'm not sure. My best bet is 'no' as the rider's autopassing doesn't pass onto the beast, and so the test must be taken at some value.