PDA

View Full Version : Chaos Marine Problem



JManJump
19-10-2011, 09:34
I have a problem which the Chao Marines
my friend is saying his Marines can get +1 attack for having 2 close combat wepons even though they are carrying normal (and I use the word loosely) Bolters.
Their wargear says they have (correct me if I am wrong)
Boltgun
Bolt Pistol
Frag and Krak Grenades
Power Armour
Close Combat Weapon

Now I might have left something out but the point is because they have a two single handed weapons (only in their wargear) they can claim the +1 attack.
is this possible even though the model itself has a Bolter?

matt_17
19-10-2011, 09:52
They do indeed get that extra attack.

If giving them the pistol and close combat weapon was an option then you might have a point about them not being allowed the extra attack if its not visible on the model... but since the CSMs come with those weapons and can't not take them, whether or not their visible is pretty much irrelevant.

JManJump
19-10-2011, 09:56
They do indeed get that extra attack.

If giving them the pistol and close combat weapon was an option then you might have a point about them not being allowed the extra attack if its not visible on the model... but since the CSMs come with those weapons and can't not take them, whether or not their visible is pretty much irrelevant.

Darn that makes them make-shift beserkers,
thats the last thing I want lol but thanks for the help

Excessus
19-10-2011, 10:39
It's their redeeming quality, multipurpose marines! :)

Though berzerkers are still tons better...at cc...

zoggin-eck
19-10-2011, 11:10
This should be in the rules discussion.

Of course they do. It says they are armed with two single-handed weapons and one two-handed weapon.

What do you mean "the model itself has a Bolter"? That's just generally how people assemble them.

Tayrod
19-10-2011, 11:16
Just FYI, Grey Hunter (space wolf marines) work the same way, and in addition, they have counter attack! 3 attacks per marine!

Latro_
19-10-2011, 11:21
Darn that makes them make-shift beserkers,
thats the last thing I want lol but thanks for the help

just with one less attack, one less WS, no furious charge so no +1I +1S and not fearless heh they're more makeshift grey hunters if anything :P

angelofrage
19-10-2011, 13:35
They do indeed get the extra attack. I think tactical marines used to come with the same equipment in previous editions, but have since been changed.

When I first charged my friends plague marines to find not only did I not get my attack for charging (blight grenades), but that he also got 2 attacks for each marine, I was a little gutted :(

Charistoph
19-10-2011, 14:09
They do indeed get the extra attack. I think tactical marines used to come with the same equipment in previous editions, but have since been changed.

Not since 3rd Edition. I don't know about previously, but in the codecies I have, Grey Hunters are the only Loyalist Marines that had anything close to this set up (They called it True Grit back then). Black Templar can swap their Bolters for BP and CCW, but that's not quite the same thing.

Latro_
19-10-2011, 14:37
They do indeed get the extra attack. I think tactical marines used to come with the same equipment in previous editions, but have since been changed.

When I first charged my friends plague marines to find not only did I not get my attack for charging (blight grenades), but that he also got 2 attacks for each marine, I was a little gutted :(


:) i love plague marines.

On a seperate not it is pretty common these days for CSM players to model units with a mix of all these weapons to make things clearer and it just 'looks' more chaosy :)

IcedCrow
19-10-2011, 15:27
I've never seen a black templar army with bolters. Lately it seems black templars are sitting on a power weapon cache, because they often have more power weapons in the army than normal weapons.

Nurgling Chieftain
19-10-2011, 16:14
It's annoyingly difficult to model Chaos Space Marines with bolters, bolt pistols, and close combat weapons.

Darnok
19-10-2011, 18:26
It's annoyingly difficult to model Chaos Space Marines with bolters, bolt pistols, and close combat weapons.

Since when do you need to model every wargear? ;)

Nurgling Chieftain
19-10-2011, 18:51
Since WYSIWYG. Besides, it looks dumb if your guys don't even have the gear they're supposedly using.

Lorenzen
19-10-2011, 19:42
you only have to model upgrades.. not basic equipment, so WYSIWYG doesn't apply.

its really not that hard to model them if you think it looks "silly" just get hold of a holstered bolt pistol, some greenstuff and figure out the rest.

or you know.. assume they beat peoples face in with the blunt end of the bolter whilst only shooting it once before assaulting you in the face?

spurker
19-10-2011, 19:51
The basic set of chaos marines comes with a load of holstered pistols, you could just use those!

Charistoph
19-10-2011, 19:58
Or put the bolter somewhere else on the model while he's using the BP/CCW arms.

And don't forget the grenades!

Bloodknight
19-10-2011, 20:14
ince WYSIWYG. Besides, it looks dumb if your guys don't even have the gear they're supposedly using.

I'd say that should really only count for special weapons and stuff. Christmas tree models with basic gear look way dumber, I think, mostly because of the oversized weaponry :).

AndrewGPaul
20-10-2011, 07:42
It's annoyingly difficult to model Chaos Space Marines with bolters, bolt pistols, and close combat weapons.

Bolt pistol in one hand, boltgun with combat blade* in the other. Job done.

Alternatively, since we're talking about Chaos, bolter in one hand, bolt pistol in another, close combat weapon in a third - or held in a tentscle or tail. Or growing out of his head.

*Glue a knife to the bottom of the bolter as a bayonet.

sprugly
20-10-2011, 08:04
My chaos marines all have bolter bolt pistol and close combat weapon on them somewhere. Try this page,

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286979&page=3

Difficult to see on most of the pics but basically they either have the bolter or Ccw under their backpack and the pistol in a holster when not being held.

Sprugly

Nurgling Chieftain
20-10-2011, 08:15
Your bolters are cunningly hidden! ;) ...I like how you have the chainswords/axes across the back sideways.

Wishing
20-10-2011, 08:34
They do indeed get the extra attack. I think tactical marines used to come with the same equipment in previous editions, but have since been changed.

No, in previous editions (and games based on previous edition rules such as Necromunda), all models in the game had a close combat weapon automatically, but you could only get an extra attack for the pistol/ccw combo if you did not carry a basic weapon. As such, there was no point whatsoever in carrying both a bolter and a bolt pistol, since you would never get a bonus attack in cc, and the bolter was the same as a bolt pistol but with longer range.

Darnok
20-10-2011, 11:34
Since WYSIWYG. Besides, it looks dumb if your guys don't even have the gear they're supposedly using.

As others have said, WYSIWYG in a "strict" meaning should only apply for non-standard equipment. Kits like Chaos Space Marines and SW Greyhunters don't even come with the required parts for every single basic grunt. I find it way easier to mix the standard equipment: some bolters, some BP/CCW, some bolter/CCW. It is also - in my opinion - more visually appealing as if every single guy is crowded with stuff. But opinions vary.

Wishing
20-10-2011, 12:07
As others have said, WYSIWYG in a "strict" meaning should only apply for non-standard equipment. Kits like Chaos Space Marines and SW Greyhunters don't even come with the required parts for every single basic grunt. I find it way easier to mix the standard equipment: some bolters, some BP/CCW, some bolter/CCW. It is also - in my opinion - more visually appealing as if every single guy is crowded with stuff. But opinions vary.

Its interesting because this relates to a debate in another thread about space marine counts-as. The question was raised as to whether you could use tactical marines as grey hunters, and someone said that you cannot because they have different equipment, GH have CCWs and tacticals don't, so using tacticals as GHs would break WYSIWYG. Since your view is that WYSIWYG doesn't apply to non-optional equipment, it shows that there are divided opinions on this, which I'm glad about.

Darnok
20-10-2011, 13:01
Its interesting because this relates to a debate in another thread about space marine counts-as. The question was raised as to whether you could use tactical marines as grey hunters, and someone said that you cannot because they have different equipment, GH have CCWs and tacticals don't, so using tacticals as GHs would break WYSIWYG. Since your view is that WYSIWYG doesn't apply to non-optional equipment, it shows that there are divided opinions on this, which I'm glad about.

I try to mix equipment, which would be "broken" by only-bolter marines. But I think I would allow it, as long as it is clear what is what...

Wishing
20-10-2011, 13:35
I try to mix equipment, which would be "broken" by only-bolter marines. But I think I would allow it, as long as it is clear what is what...

I see what you mean. I do find the grey hunter question to be very odd though, mainly because it is standard in WHFB and 40k that a close combat weapon can be as simple as just a knife. If you take a unit of tactical marines and glue the combat knives that come with their kit to the belts of most of the marines (or added them as bayonets), and added some sheathed pistols too, would they then be WYSIWYG as grey hunters? And would they then stop being WYSIWYG tactical marines, since they technically aren't allowed to have the knives that come with their kit?

I really hate that they changed the CCW/pistol rules btw.

AndrewGPaul
20-10-2011, 13:54
Its interesting because this relates to a debate in another thread about space marine counts-as. The question was raised as to whether you could use tactical marines as grey hunters, and someone said that you cannot because they have different equipment, GH have CCWs and tacticals don't, so using tacticals as GHs would break WYSIWYG. Since your view is that WYSIWYG doesn't apply to non-optional equipment, it shows that there are divided opinions on this, which I'm glad about.

If I buy a Space Marine Tactical Squad box set, assemble them without using the MIssile Launcher and the paint them grey or not at all, if I use them in a Space Wolf army then they're Grey Hunters. A squad of Marines with boltguns in a Space Wolf army can be nothing other than Grey Hunters, so I'm not seeing how any confusion can arise - unless you play a lot of doubles games, or your opponents hide their army books and generally play like tools.

Askari
20-10-2011, 15:01
Pah, it's easy to model CSMs with all three weapons -

Bolter in hands.
Bolt pistol holster on legs.
Khorne Berserker sheathed sword on backpack/other leg.

Or Bolt Pistol/CCW in hands.
Bolter with sling over shoulder.

Simples.

Darnok
20-10-2011, 16:46
But it looks crap.* :p



* please note that this is a very personal opinion of mine, which I'm well aware off nobody has to share. ;)

sprugly
20-10-2011, 18:02
It CAN look crap. It can be made to look fine.

Sprugly

WildWeasel
20-10-2011, 20:19
Psst, 5E doesn't have a WYSIWYG rule ;)

It has a box where they suggest following it for characters, but to also allow for some flexibility even there.

So it's really a sportsmanship/group convention thing. Saying "the red bolters are actually flamers" will disinclined me from playing you. Not piling all the gear on every CSM, or pointing at you Grey Hunters and saying they are the Assault Marines in a counts-as BA list, no sweat. As long as specials are modeled, a few "phantom bolters" are no sweat. Maybe they are close quarters shooting specialists, using something akin to shotgun rounds!

ashc
20-10-2011, 21:07
'Rule of Cool' works for me, but I am pretty lax on that sort of thing.

Vedar
20-10-2011, 21:36
I have a good mix on my Iron Warriors. Some have just bolters (quite a few pistol holsters), Some with 2 pistols (ya ya I know), some chainsword and pistol. Also quite a few have the knives on them. They are all just standard CSM grunts.

Wishing
21-10-2011, 09:06
If I buy a Space Marine Tactical Squad box set, assemble them without using the MIssile Launcher and the paint them grey or not at all, if I use them in a Space Wolf army then they're Grey Hunters. A squad of Marines with boltguns in a Space Wolf army can be nothing other than Grey Hunters, so I'm not seeing how any confusion can arise - unless you play a lot of doubles games, or your opponents hide their army books and generally play like tools.

Agreed. The whole extra pistols issue really annoys me for a related reason... I really don't like frivolous changes to the core troops of armies. Space wolves are a colour scheme for a space marine army, and the fact that they call their troop types by different names doesn't change that a grey hunter is just a space wolf tactical marine. Saying that grey hunters are now armed differently than tactical marines suggests that a space wolf army built during Rogue Trader is no longer legal as its tactical marines are not WYSIWYG anymore, and this kind of invalidation of legacy armies is something I find deplorable. The same thing applies to chaos - chaos marines with bolters are tactical marines for traitor legions, and making them not compatible WYSIWYG-wise is total crap. It means that if my home-made marine chapter turns to chaos, they all have to go out and strap axes to their backpacks? Switching out units is fine, trading land speeders for obliterators for example, but actually modifying what equipment the basic core troops come equipped with is not ok. So frustrating.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
21-10-2011, 10:22
I like that my chaos marines have a sneaky bolt pistol. My gaming buddies regularly forget that I have two ccw. It makes them more flexible and makes up a bit for the fact that unlike imperial marines they can run away like cowards.

Modelling basic troops to be wysiwyg is just so damn unnecessary...in my opinion. Wysiwyg is important for special equipment but not for basic. I hate it when someone says a guy with the plasma gun is actually a flamethrower. How am I supposed to memorise what an opponents entire army is armed with. Okay so if one model is this way I'm fine with it. But a gaming buddy of mine does this with every grey hunter. I'm pretty sure the equipment mysteriously ****** from turn to turn and I just can keep track.

It's bit like that with Chaos Marines. You know that all basic marines are armed this way. I try to model moat with voltage but sone with sword and pistol just to remind people.

Charistoph
21-10-2011, 14:20
Agreed. The whole extra pistols issue really annoys me for a related reason... I really don't like frivolous changes to the core troops of armies. Space wolves are a colour scheme for a space marine army, and the fact that they call their troop types by different names doesn't change that a grey hunter is just a space wolf tactical marine. Saying that grey hunters are now armed differently than tactical marines suggests that a space wolf army built during Rogue Trader is no longer legal as its tactical marines are not WYSIWYG anymore, and this kind of invalidation of legacy armies is something I find deplorable. The same thing applies to chaos - chaos marines with bolters are tactical marines for traitor legions, and making them not compatible WYSIWYG-wise is total crap. It means that if my home-made marine chapter turns to chaos, they all have to go out and strap axes to their backpacks? Switching out units is fine, trading land speeders for obliterators for example, but actually modifying what equipment the basic core troops come equipped with is not ok. So frustrating.

????

Grey Hunters have always had the ability to have 2 attacks in close combat, at least since 3rd Edition (don't know about earlier). Space Marine Tacticals suddenly gained a pistol in 5th Edition (so they can shoot and Assault). All the BP+CCW for Grey Hunters does is give them their 2 attacks without the need for Special Rules. The same could be said for Chaos Marines.

You are complaining about a simple wargear setup that helps eliminate the number of Special Rules a model carries on a forum that generally that deplores the promulgation of Special Rules (though they find a lot of support in a lot of Wish Lists, I know, bizarre), so I don't think you will find a lot of support for your hate here. Especially when the current ruleset specifically states that standard equipment does not always need to be modelled.

Gertjan
21-10-2011, 16:22
Agreed. The whole extra pistols issue really annoys me for a related reason... I really don't like frivolous changes to the core troops of armies. Space wolves are a colour scheme for a space marine army, and the fact that they call their troop types by different names doesn't change that a grey hunter is just a space wolf tactical marine. Saying that grey hunters are now armed differently than tactical marines suggests that a space wolf army built during Rogue Trader is no longer legal as its tactical marines are not WYSIWYG anymore, and this kind of invalidation of legacy armies is something I find deplorable. The same thing applies to chaos - chaos marines with bolters are tactical marines for traitor legions, and making them not compatible WYSIWYG-wise is total crap. It means that if my home-made marine chapter turns to chaos, they all have to go out and strap axes to their backpacks? Switching out units is fine, trading land speeders for obliterators for example, but actually modifying what equipment the basic core troops come equipped with is not ok. So frustrating.

Actually, tactical marines at least from 2nd didn't have an addicional ccw, they had a boter, bolt pistol and assorted grenades, that's it, nothing mroe. Only the sergeant was allowed to buy additional melee weapons. Grey hunters as standard came with the same layout as a tactical marine but the whole squad could buy additonal weapons from the close combat list. And yes, later editions of the game invalidated whole grey hunter squads as the layout suddenly became extremely illegal, it happens with evolving games, you'll have to deal with it. And equipment that comes as standard doesn't always have to be represented on the model, unless it's a really strickt ruling a squad which includes both bolter chaos marines and ccw ones is wysiwyg (or grey hunters for that matter). Sure, trouble might arise if you start using tactical marines as counts as grey hunters/chaos marines but then again, the same will go if you use them to represent grey knights. they are simply different units, that's the whole idea behind them all existing to begin with.

Finn
21-10-2011, 17:59
I actually kind of like models that wield the bolter with its pistol grip and the CCW in the other hand. If you wanted to be strict about WYSIWYG, they could have those handy holstered pistols.

Chaos is just badass enough to go with dual-wielding bolters, right? ;)

And I'm squarely in the camp that says you don't need to model basic equipment. My reasoning for this is mostly rule-based: the standard equipment for standard mooks can and does change from one edition of the codex to the next. Having to completely re-equip (and then repaint!) your finished army so that you can play in a legal game...not even GW will go that far.

I like how they relaxed the WYSIWYG for characters. It allows more potential for conversions and imagination, and takes some wind out of the sails of folks who will complain about conversions that are perfectly reasonable. For example, I would be afraid of using my counts-as Azrael (I play a successor chapter, using the actual Azrael model would be dumb IMO) if the rules weren't written as they are. He's pretty much got a poleaxe to represent the +2 Strength - would be a huge honkin' sword if I didn't sometimes play Vanilla with a relic blade on him, so maybe I'm already damned in the other side's eyes. But it's a cool conversion, I've received compliments on using the boring old 3rd Edition SM captain in a cool way, and it would be lame if the rules forced me to use it otherwise.

Wishing
21-10-2011, 21:58
You are complaining about a simple wargear setup that helps eliminate the number of Special Rules a model carries on a forum that generally that deplores the promulgation of Special Rules (though they find a lot of support in a lot of Wish Lists, I know, bizarre), so I don't think you will find a lot of support for your hate here. Especially when the current ruleset specifically states that standard equipment does not always need to be modelled.

I'd say that more to the point, I'm complaining about GW differentiating things that in my view should not be differentiated. Space Wolves should be a colour scheme, not a codex, and chaos tactical marines should have the same number of attacks as imperial tactical marines (or if they want them to be super elite veterans, just give them ******* extra attacks on their profile). However, I'm sure you're right that few (if any) share my views on here, so it's probably best to stop before I expose myself to even more ridicule for my unfashionable hate!

Charistoph
21-10-2011, 22:36
I'd say that more to the point, I'm complaining about GW differentiating things that in my view should not be differentiated. Space Wolves should be a colour scheme, not a codex, and chaos tactical marines should have the same number of attacks as imperial tactical marines (or if they want them to be super elite veterans, just give them ******* extra attacks on their profile). However, I'm sure you're right that few (if any) share my views on here, so it's probably best to stop before I expose myself to even more ridicule for my unfashionable hate!

You make a very good point about the Attacks profile. I often wonder about it myself, especially in those cases where said models are always going to have a Pistol and CCW (like Chaos Marines and Grey Hunters). I guess it's so they can say, "Hey, they're exactly the same, except for their gear", never mind they give them a crap load of Special Rules for Training on the side.

Lorenzen
22-10-2011, 04:00
id say its more about not invalidating peoples older models.. you're more likely to make people like you if you can use all your bp & ccw chaos dudes and all your bolter chaos dudes without having to faff about with changing squads.

Wishing
22-10-2011, 07:38
You make a very good point about the Attacks profile. I often wonder about it myself, especially in those cases where said models are always going to have a Pistol and CCW (like Chaos Marines and Grey Hunters). I guess it's so they can say, "Hey, they're exactly the same, except for their gear", never mind they give them a crap load of Special Rules for Training on the side.

I agree, and it kinda ties in with what my point was. GW understand that tactical marines, grey hunters and common chaos marines are supposed to represent basically the same thing, so they don't want to give them different stat profiles. But they do want to make them slightly different, so instead, they give them extra equipment (and change the core rules so that said equipment makes sense), ignoring that this equipment setup made no sense in previous editions, that the model kits don't come with the pieces as standard, and the fundamental stupidity of the question that if carrying a knife gives you an extra attack in close combat, why doesn't tactical marines just carry around the knife that comes in their kit then? Why this need for differentiation in this awkward fashion?

However, I admit that at the core I'm just a grumpy old man that doesn't like that things have changed from the way they used to (and should) be. My heart is stuck in RT/second edition, and the majority of rules changes since then annoy me (like the removal of the movement stat, though there are new rules I do like, like target priority tests).

Buddha777
22-10-2011, 15:26
If your opponent is really that crazy about WYSIWYG for basic models then don't play them. WYSIWYG is there for convenience (so both players remember that squad X has 2 plasma guns for example), it's not there to be a jerk and actually hinder play.

ashc
22-10-2011, 15:31
If your opponent is really that crazy about WYSIWYG for basic models then don't play them. WYSIWYG is there for convenience (so both players remember that squad X has 2 plasma guns for example), it's not there to be a jerk and actually hinder play.

Precisely this.