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AMWOOD co
20-10-2011, 04:40
Allow me to set the stage: in a recent 3-way battle (I'll be posting proposed rules for the magic phase for that later), we had a situation that isn't unheard of but had a stranged occurance. A unit of Ironguts with Slaughtermaster had charged a Gobling Spear Chukka that had a single wound remaining. The Slaughtermaster miscast, rolled 4 on the chart and then automatically died. The Spearchukka and one of the 3 other models also kicked the bucket.

Now, the first issue: Do the ironguts take a panic test due to heavy casualties? On one side, they were in combat when the damage was done and so don't take panic tests. On the other side, they were out of combat after the damage when the panic test would be taken.

Second, after the damage, the ironguts overran into another spear chukka. They proceeded to beat it in combat. Could they overrun a second time on the same turn?

Now, our conclusions to these were to take the test (2-1 in favour) and to allow the second overrun (unanimous). The reasons for the second is that there is nothing preventing a second overrun, just pursuing or overrunning after a second round of combat in a single phase.

Nonetheless, we all felt things were a little dicey on the rules and felt we should see what the internet community here thought on each matter. Any help out there?

Mr_Rose
20-10-2011, 07:53
Agree o the panic; there's no one in contact, so you're not in combat and immune to panic any more.

Technically though, the ogres shouldn't have made the first overrun as the goblins weren't wiped out as a result of the combat per p.58, second paragraph of the overrun rule.

oldWitheredCorpse
20-10-2011, 08:04
Agree o the panic; there's no one in contact, so you're not in combat and immune to panic any more.

Technically though, the ogres shouldn't have made the first overrun as the goblins weren't wiped out as a result of the combat per p.58, second paragraph of the overrun rule.

Also, they wouldn't be able to resolve the combat with the chucka in the same turn unless that chucka were already involved in an unresolved close combat that turn. They would count as charging in the following turn, however.

T10
20-10-2011, 08:18
1. It seems to me that you need to take into account the status of the unit when it suffers the damage that triggers the Panic test rather than its status in the aftermath.

A similar situation: A character that survives while his unit is wiped out by shooting or magic reverts to a unit on his own. However, he still takes the Panic test for all the casualties his unit suffered.

2. It seems ureasonable to deny the Ogres an overrun just because the manner in which the Spear Chucka was destroyed wasn't "close combat". However, the Ogres should have waited until the close combat phase before making their overrun move.

Though the Spear chucka was destroyed before the close combat phase it makes sense to consider that combat to count as "resolved" in the close combat phase and proceed from there.

H33D
20-10-2011, 08:38
-If you are in combat you are immune to panic. If something blows up and kills everything but a few of your guys in combat I would say that the deaths should be ruled simultaneous and the panic would be ignored. It would be similar to wiping out a TK unit that has a Tomb King in it and then taking 25% casualties from his deal. I think this happens during combat still and would be treated the same as it is simultaneous with the TK's death.

-I'm also of the opinion (but my BRB is just too darn far away) that overrunning more than once in a single game turn is disallowed but its too late and I'm too lazy to look it up. To be honest, rules in multiplayer games suck. Try moving and shooting but being the first guy that moves. :( My Gyrocopter has such a hard time unless it moves last.

ewar
20-10-2011, 11:33
I think they should take the panic test. Panic tests are taken at the end of the phase, if the requirements for a panic test were met during that phase - at which point they are not in combat.

Regarding the overrun - the models they were fighting didn't die in combat, so no overrun.

brother_maynard
20-10-2011, 12:00
Regarding the overrun - the models they were fighting didn't die in combat, so no overrun.

yes, you do. read p. 6 of the BRB FAQ

ewar
20-10-2011, 12:07
yes, you do. read p. 6 of the BRB FAQ

Thanks for the reference, haven't seen that before.

For anyone wondering:

Q: If I charge an enemy and they are wiped out before the
Close Combat phase, can I choose to either Overrun or Reform
From Victory? If I can, when does this occur? (p58)
A: Yes. This occurs at the start of the Close Combat phase
before any blows have been struck.

Lex
20-10-2011, 12:48
Panic tests are taken at the end of the phase, if the requirements for a panic test were met during that phase - at which point they are not in combat.


Panic in 8th is taken immediately, not at end of phase.

jtrowell
20-10-2011, 13:07
Yes, but the faq implies that the unit is still in close combat until it is resolved in the appropriate phase (after all, they did make their initial charge)

oldWitheredCorpse
20-10-2011, 13:09
Thanks for the reference, haven't seen that before.

For anyone wondering:

Q: If I charge an enemy and they are wiped out before the
Close Combat phase, can I choose to either Overrun or Reform
From Victory? If I can, when does this occur? (p58)
A: Yes. This occurs at the start of the Close Combat phase
before any blows have been struck.

Does this mean that they do get to fight if they overrun into something new??

T10
20-10-2011, 13:59
No, they follow the normal rules for overrun so they may or may not get to fight the unit they run into. They get to fight if that unit is part of a combat that has not yet been resolved in the current close combat phase. If the enemy breaks or is destroyed then they do not get a second overrun/pursuit move.

-T10

ewar
20-10-2011, 15:04
Panic in 8th is taken immediately, not at end of phase.

I think I'm going to shut up now, as it seems my edition hangover is worse than I thought.

p.s. why introduce such small changes?! Is it to befuddle all the vets??

AMWOOD co
20-10-2011, 15:27
p.s. why introduce such small changes?! Is it to befuddle all the vets??

No, I think it's to eliminate little issue that kept popping up that weren't the way they meant them to be. Fanatics, for example, would have done damage, but the enemy would have gotten to complete their charge move without a panic test since the phase wasn't yet over.

Someone above mentioned that characters who had a unit wiped out that they were in have to take panic. Yes, they do, but it's panic for a unit being wiped out rather than for heavy casualties.

Q: At what point after a unit has been wiped out do any characters
remaining count as having left the unit? (p101)
A: As soon as the last model from the unit has been removed,
any remaining characters will count as a new unit. Note that
this will cause Panic tests to all friendly units within 6"
(including the newly formed unit of character(s)) as the unit
has been destroyed.
So this implies that it is the end state of the unit that determines whether panic tests are taken (and for what reason) rather than the beginning state.

And thanks for everyone for pointing out that bit about overruns. We seemed to have done it wrong and will fix it for next time.

DeathlessDraich
22-10-2011, 12:59
Allow me to set the stage: in a recent 3-way battle (I'll be posting proposed rules for the magic phase for that later), we had a situation that isn't unheard of but had a stranged occurance. A unit of Ironguts with Slaughtermaster had charged a Gobling Spear Chukka that had a single wound remaining. The Slaughtermaster miscast, rolled 4 on the chart and then automatically died. The Spearchukka and one of the 3 other models also kicked the bucket.

Now, the first issue: Do the ironguts take a panic test due to heavy casualties? On one side, they were in combat when the damage was done and so don't take panic tests. On the other side, they were out of combat after the damage when the panic test would be taken.

Second, after the damage, the ironguts overran into another spear chukka. They proceeded to beat it in combat. Could they overrun a second time on the same turn?

Now, our conclusions to these were to take the test (2-1 in favour) and to allow the second overrun (unanimous). The reasons for the second is that there is nothing preventing a second overrun, just pursuing or overrunning after a second round of combat in a single phase.

Nonetheless, we all felt things were a little dicey on the rules and felt we should see what the internet community here thought on each matter. Any help out there?

Q1 Panic and the destroyed charged unit.

a) Firstly, when is a unit deemed to be in combat? I shall attempt a definition below as the rules do not provide a specific defintion.

1) When it is still in btb with an enemy unit/s from a previous round of combat
2) After it has charged or been charged and is still in btb contact with enemy unit/s.

The bit in Red is necessary as its exclusion will then (wrongly) include failed charged units and units fleeing from a charge.


The only rule then, that I feel, assists in resolving this issue is pg 48 - "all eligible units" (i.e. those in base contact with the enemy must fight in close combat"

The word "eligible" in the above rule lends some support to my previous definition - i.e since units in close combat = units that must fight in close combat --> But units are only 'eligible' to fight by being in btb (from the rule above.)

Therefore units in close combat = units in base contact.

Since there are no enemy units in base contact with the Ironguts after the miscast in the magic phase, they are no longer ItP

Q2 - Overruning a destroyed unit

The FAQ was first introduced to resolve the problem of a WM crew forced to flee from a charge and making it consistent with the outcome of a fleeing unit destroyed by a charge. The charging unit can then opt to reform or overrun according to the FAQ.
So in this case - the charging Ironguts can overrun through the 1st WM unit destroyed by the Miscast but not again.

T10
22-10-2011, 23:08
Units in close combat are not immune to psychology.

jtrowell
24-10-2011, 08:39
No, but they are immune to panic

H33D
24-10-2011, 17:23
So if you wipe out a unit with simultaneous attacks but they also take out 25% of your unit with their attacks at the same initiative step, because you are now out of combat you take a panic test?

I'm not sure I'm buying this.

I think if the effect occurs while you are in b2b (and therefore in combat) then no panic test. Even if you are out of combat afterwards as a result of casualties. Just because the panic triggers while you are out of combat shouldn't mean that it would cause panic if the effect that triggered it occurred while you were in combat and therefore immune to panic!

I understand that a magic spell occurs at a different 'time' than close combat attacks but its the same principle.

Can I support this? Not right now! I have to get to work!

AMWOOD co
25-10-2011, 03:58
So if you wipe out a unit with simultaneous attacks but they also take out 25% of your unit with their attacks at the same initiative step, because you are now out of combat you take a panic test?

I wanted to refute this with the line that says you don't take panic tests due to casualties inflicted while in combat. Everyone remembers that line, right? See where I'm going?

Guess what line I couldn't find? That's right, the line isn't there anymore, and the conclusion that wounds inflicted during combat cause panic is absurd (that's what Break Tests are for).

The problem is that this is counter to many other scenarios; eg. a character that makes a unit Immune to Panic is killed by a hellcannon, the unit will then take a panic test since they are not Immune to Panic.

The only conclusion I can make is that a unit isn't considered out of combat until the current round of combat is actually over (ie. combat resolution has been resolved; any break tests taken; any fleeing, overrun, pursuit or reforming determined). Only then is a unit not considered in combat during the combat phase. Outside the combat phase, I see no reason to offer such a restriction.

H33D, if you can build more of a case, I would love to hear it, because I know my answer isn't definitive. If there is a definitive answer one way or the other, let me know... please. We have enough unresolved issues, we don't need another.

DeathlessDraich
25-10-2011, 15:36
No, but they are immune to panic

Thank you. It's refreshing to see someone, like yourself, who reads with a view to understand as opposed to a view to make unsubstantiated criticism. :)

belgarath97
30-10-2011, 13:27
Yes, but the faq implies that the unit is still in close combat until it is resolved in the appropriate phase (after all, they did make their initial charge)

Not sure I agree with the implication you are making. It just says that the overrun happens at the beginning of the phase, not that they are still in combat.

I honestly can see the argument both ways. They were in CC when the conditions are met for the Panic test, but are not technically in CC when the test is made.