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b4z
20-10-2011, 13:33
Ok, this has come as a suprise to me, because our gaming group have totally overlooked this(!)...

Player 1 and Player 2 both have a single Level 4 Wizard each.

Player 1 casts a spell with his Wizard [with 4 dice]. [Casting Attempt Succeeded]

Player 2 tries to dispell it with his Wizard [with 4 dice] and fails to equal or exceed the casting value. [Dispel Attempt Failed]

Player 1 casts another spell. [Casting Attempt Succeeded]

Player 2 has no power dice left but his Wizard has a Dispel Scroll... HOWEVER... he is not allowed to use the Dispel Scroll because his Wizard has failed a dispell attempt that turn and therefore cannot make another dispel attempt [which includes using a Dispel Scroll].

WARHAMMER RULEBOOK FAQ 1.5 Page 5
Q: Can there ever be more than one attempt at dispelling a spell per
magic phase? Can a Wizard use a scroll if it isn’t allowed to make a
dispel attempt, for example the spell was cast with irresistible force or
the wizard has previously failed to dispel a spell that turn? (p35)
A: No to both questions.

Is this correct?

theunwantedbeing
20-10-2011, 13:48
The army can still make a dispel attempt, thus allowing the use of the scroll.
I think anyway.

Guess you are indeed correct! One more little quirk to remember for future reference.

Mercules
20-10-2011, 13:52
Well, you quoted the proof that yes that is correct so.... What do you want us to say? :)

This would be why some people take a level 2 caster with a Dispel Scroll. Well, that and in case they blow up their level 4.

b4z
20-10-2011, 13:54
Yes the army can still make a dispel attempt [without the +4 of course] but the Wizard has the Dispel Scroll and is not allowed to make a dispel attempt therefore the Dispel Scroll cannot be used.

I am just suprised that's all, and wondered how many people didn't realise this either...

And yes as you say... it means the Dispel Scroll SHOULD be on your Support Caster/Wizard Level 2 etc.

Althwen
20-10-2011, 14:21
Mmm, I for one didn't realise this.
As I recently shifted the Dispel Scroll to my lvl4 and kicked out the lower level, this may be a reason to get him back in again.
(Ofcourse I will still expect him to grovel and beg, eventhough I myself was wrong!)

Malorian
20-10-2011, 14:24
Sneaky...

Something to keep in mind for sure.

shakedown47
20-10-2011, 19:36
Good find. I guarantee the vast majority of players are not aware of this. I myself am debating on whether I should inform my group beforehand, or wait for an opportune time to drop it like a bomb...

RanaldLoec
20-10-2011, 19:50
I never take a dispel scroll on my lvl 4 I prefer a bonus to cast or power dice.

My lvl 1 or 2 still plays the scroll caddy role.

DaemonReign
20-10-2011, 20:35
Jolly good catch there..

Can't say I like this ruling, it seems to be taking things too far somehow..

But what the hell.. Good to know either way.

b4z
20-10-2011, 20:35
A similar scenario can occur with a Level 4 Wizard and Level 2/1 Support Wizard carrying the Dispel Scroll:

Player 1 and Player 2 both have a single Level 4 Wizard each, Player 2 also has a Level 2 Wizard.

Player 1 casts a spell with his Wizard. [Casting Attempt Succeeded]

Player 2 tries to dispell it with his Level 4 Wizard [+4] and fails to equal or exceed the casting value. [Dispel Attempt Failed]

Player 1 casts another spell. [Casting Attempt Succeeded]

Player 2 tries to dispell it with his Level 2 Wizard [+2] and fails to equal or exceed the casting value. [Dispel Attempt Failed]

Player 1 casts another spell. [Casting Attempt Succeeded]

Player 2 tries to dispell it with his Dispel Scroll on his Level 2 Wizard... HOWEVER... he is not allowed to use the Dispel Scroll because his Wizard has failed a dispell attempt that turn and therefore cannot make another dispel attempt [which includes using a Dispel Scroll].

majian
20-10-2011, 20:44
That or a slight change to when to use dispel scroll, don't wait for it to be the last option but use it to gain an advantage during a magic phase to shut them out.

use it on an attempt with 4+ dice. and you should have more than your opponent the rest of the turn.

theunwantedbeing
20-10-2011, 21:58
, or wait for an opportune time to drop it like a bomb...

You wait obviously :P
No fun in ruining the surprise :)

Tuttivillus
20-10-2011, 22:27
Good job b4z! I didn't realize that. Thnx.

Malorian
20-10-2011, 23:10
You wait obviously :P
No fun in ruining the surprise :)

+1

And it will be one hell of a bomb too :evilgrin:


The most commo situation I can see is when they have very few dispel dice so they throw them at something minor hopig to get lucky, knowing they always have the scroll for the important one.

Oh how wrong they are :D:p

brother_maynard
21-10-2011, 03:22
You wait obviously :P
No fun in ruining the surprise :)


how wrong they are :D:p

you both are wicked, wicked creatures

b4z
21-10-2011, 09:37
The most commo situation I can see is when they have very few dispel dice so they throw them at something minor hopig to get lucky, knowing they always have the scroll for the important one.

Oh how wrong they are :D:p

This is the situation i was basically making this thread for.. it happens alot more often than the thread example at the top demonstrates.

Yes how wrong they are ;)

sulla
22-10-2011, 03:05
Most times I play against a scroll, it is on the lowest level caster anyway, so this will very rarely come up. That's probably why so few players have realised to ramifications of the FAQ.

a18no
22-10-2011, 05:06
It's a VERY good find. Something to remember mostly when you play against a solo mage. it happen a lot in any comp environment.

Scalebug
23-10-2011, 11:29
+1 on the "Good find, had not thought of this before" side...

Must say I have probably broken this rule more than once, having two lv2's, one with a dispel scroll and one with the seal of Destruction.

MOMUS
23-10-2011, 14:24
Heh, i take a Slann and two priests. One has the cube of darkness and the other with a feedback scroll. This rule has never bothered me, but its good to know for enemy magic.

GodlessM
23-10-2011, 17:55
What FAQ is this from? Really gotta print it off.

Zirkonicky
30-10-2011, 21:21
Me still being a warhammer n00b also has a question.

In case of the first post, when the sorcerer failes to dispell, does the army get ANOTHER chance to dispell? Or did I just read that wrong?

Mr_Rose
30-10-2011, 21:31
Me still being a warhammer n00b also has a question.

In case of the first post, when the sorcerer failes to dispell, does the army get ANOTHER chance to dispell? Or did I just read that wrong?
Briefly; you get a maximum of one chance to dispel a spell. You can do other things instead (scrolls mostly) or decline to try but the maximum is one.

When you do dispel, you choose a particular wizard to do the dispelling, but if they fail they can't try to dispel again in that magic phase.

When you have no wizards able to dispel, for whatever reason, you default to the 'natural' dispel that you get just for turning up, which gets no bonus (unless you're a dwarf) but doesn't shut down if you fail.

You don't ever get to use a wizard and then use the 'natural' dispel against the same spell.

Maetco
17-08-2013, 15:34
A follow up question to this idea:

Can you use dispel scroll if you don't have any dispel dice in you dispel pool?

Reasoning why now: Dispel scroll is used instead of attempting to dispel the spell by using dispel dice and BRB page 35 "you must use at least one dice from the pool if you wish to attempt a dispel". If the pool is empty -> you can't attempt to dispel and dispel scroll is used instead of dispel attempt -> if you can't make a dispel attempt you can't use dispel scroll.

Any comments?

Blinder
18-08-2013, 15:51
I'd say the scroll is good to go: Scrolls are used instead of attempting to dispel, assuming the wizard is currently eligible to do so. Having to use one die is part of the process kicked off by electing to attempt to dispel, which you've already decided you aren't going to do for that spell. All of the other restrictions (broken concentration, fleeing, etc.) forbid the wizard from acting, the "must use a die" mechanic simply precludes one of several actions a wizard may take. This is based off my sense of "what everything is meant to do," mind, so someone may dig up a set of quotes that prevent scrolls-without-dice on a technicality, but I've never noticed anything to suggest it would be treated as if the wizard had failed a dispel or something.

theunwantedbeing
18-08-2013, 20:15
A follow up question to this idea:

Can you use dispel scroll if you don't have any dispel dice in you dispel pool?

Reasoning why now: Dispel scroll is used instead of attempting to dispel the spell by using dispel dice and BRB page 35 "you must use at least one dice from the pool if you wish to attempt a dispel". If the pool is empty -> you can't attempt to dispel and dispel scroll is used instead of dispel attempt -> if you can't make a dispel attempt you can't use dispel scroll.

Any comments?

I'de say no.
A wizard need to be eligible to make a dispel attempt to use a scroll (as per the FAQ).
A wizard needs to use at least one dice to be allowed to make a dispel attempt (as per the rulebook).

So an empty dispel pool means no dispel attempts.
An FAQ on the matter would be nice of course.

Spiney Norman
18-08-2013, 21:17
I'de say no.
A wizard need to be eligible to make a dispel attempt to use a scroll (as per the FAQ).
A wizard needs to use at least one dice to be allowed to make a dispel attempt (as per the rulebook).

So an empty dispel pool means no dispel attempts.
An FAQ on the matter would be nice of course.

Personally I would lean the other way, but we can agree that a precise FAQ for this question would be useful.

The current FAQ answers this question
"Can a wizard use a scroll if it isn't allowed to make a dispel attempt, for example if a spell was cast with irresistible force or the wizard has previously failed to dispel a spell that turn?"

I think it is a bit of a stretch to say that a wizard with no dispel dice is not allowed to make a dispel attempt, he is allowed to, he just can't because his pool is dry. Its worth noting that the specific examples given in the FAQ answer do not include lack of dice, although it true to say the list isn't necessarily exhaustive.

Maetco
19-08-2013, 08:50
Thanks for the replies so far.

I could see it go either way. The FAQ is very clear about 1 thing: If a wizard is not allowed to make a dispel attempt they can't use a dispel scroll (the list of reason after is literally just examples of the situation not all the situations). Basically it comes down to whether a wizard is allowed to make a dispel attempt or not when the pool is dry? We know that the wizard can't make the attemtp (BRB) but "can't" and "isn't allowed" might be considered to be different things.

I'd really like to hear more opinions and the reasoning behind them so if you got any, please give us your 2 cent.