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Nicho
21-10-2011, 11:55
Hey guys after looking at the golden daemon winners for games ay uk this year i think its about time that entrance to golden daemon was made country specific, the fact that one foreigner comes along and takes 4 out of 13 categories is totally unfair in my opinion. They have their own gamesdays they can enter, and do so and win, so it just seems completely greedy and unfair to come over to the UK and enter aswell.

Uk Golden Daemon should be for UK painters.

I don't want to come as racist or a biggot or whatever because im not, its just something that really grinds my gears.

Thoughts?

2ndCompanyVeterans
21-10-2011, 12:09
I was at Games Day this year and the models were awesome, However the only real answer for this is a bit of good ol English pride and try harder. I think the fact that he travelled all the way from Italy to display his wares earns him that right (possibly courting work as Alan Merritt held him back at the end and talked to him for quite a bit) though if he returns next year they should install a revolving door for him.

It's worth noting that while Italy has a Games Day it's not nearly as big as the UK one Seen photos of the Spanish and Italian one in the past and they arn't bad but I see the appeal of the UK. Also a lot of countries don't have a Games Day.

Does anyone know if he has set a record for most gold in a single sitting?

Zywus
21-10-2011, 12:27
Hey guys after looking at the golden daemon winners for games ay uk this year i think its about time that entrance to golden daemon was made country specific, the fact that one foreigner comes along and takes 4 out of 13 categories is totally unfair in my opinion. They have their own gamesdays they can enter, and do so and win, so it just seems completely greedy and unfair to come over to the UK and enter aswell.

Uk Golden Daemon should be for UK painters.

I don't want to come as racist or a biggot or whatever because im not, its just something that really grinds my gears.

Thoughts?
Is UK residents prohibited from entering in the other countries Golden Daemon competitions?

If not, I don't think you have a case here.

Nicho
21-10-2011, 12:30
Yes but this isn't just a one off it has happened for years i remember how alot of other people complained about team Spain doing the exact same thing. Yes gamesday in the UK is the " big deal" but there is still a painting competition in the other countries games days. Like i said i just think its an unfair thing to occur. I think that maybe there should be an international golden daemon that everyone can enter to get over the problem. If people are willing to travel all the way to the UK then they could equally travel to that instead and keep things equal.

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Nicho
21-10-2011, 12:32
Is UK residents prohibited from entering in the other countries Golden Daemon competitions?

If not, I don't think you have a case here.

No but like i said gd should be country specific for everyone with an international competition possibly held every few years.

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ewar
21-10-2011, 12:39
Hey guys after looking at the golden daemon winners for games ay uk this year i think its about time that entrance to golden daemon was made country specific, the fact that one foreigner comes along and takes 4 out of 13 categories is totally unfair in my opinion. They have their own gamesdays they can enter, and do so and win, so it just seems completely greedy and unfair to come over to the UK and enter aswell.

Uk Golden Daemon should be for UK painters.

I don't want to come as racist or a biggot or whatever because im not, its just something that really grinds my gears.

Thoughts?

I completely 100% disagree - protectionism doesn't do anyone any favours.

So what if he cleaned up this year? It just means our native painting isn't up to scratch and we need to improve. Holding a competition for what would then be substandard painters is no competition at all!

Guess how we improve? By competing against the best.

This kind of head in the sand, why don't all the best people go away is what's wrong with sport/economics/warhammer painting. Suck it up. We'll get better in future.

SunTzu
21-10-2011, 13:28
GD UK is "the" GW world painting competition. Anyone and everyone has a right to enter. And this is only proper. Imagine if the 2010 football World Cup had only allowed African teams to enter, because it was hosted in South Africa. Not much of a World Cup, then, is it really? The analogy breaks down slightly because each continent also have their own football championship... but none of them carry the prestige of the World Cup, which is what GD UK is most equivalent to. You could make GD UK only for UK entrants, but then you're need another, international, competition on top of it, which is more work for GW to organise for zero gain.

Basically, if you win GD UK, you have a fair claim on being able to say you are the best painter of (GW) miniatures in the world. Exclude non-UK residents and suddenly you're no longer able to make that claim. If I had the kind of ability that would put me in a chance to win, I'd be pissed off to think I'd only won because the people who were better than me weren't allowed to enter. I'd want to compete against the best in the world! I'd be glad of the challenge! If I didn't win... I'd want to get better!

In other news, those damned foreigners are coming over here, stealing all our women and taking all our jobs. :shifty:

Chaos and Evil
21-10-2011, 13:37
Uk Golden Daemon should be for UK painters.

I don't want to come as racist...

You might want to change your opinions, then. :rolleyes:

Nicho
21-10-2011, 14:14
Imagine if the 2010 football World Cup had only allowed African teams to enter, because it was hosted in South Africa. Not much of a World Cup, then, is it really?

No but then its not called World games day is it?

You could make GD UK only for UK entrants, but then you're need another, international, competition on top of it, which is more work for GW to organise for zero gain.

How would games workshop not gain from an international competition? that's like saying they don't gain from games day in general.

I'd want to compete against the best in the world! I'd be glad of the challenge!

Then you could enter an international competition to have that challenge.

I would just prefer if it ran like this

Country level competition

World wide competition.

That way you have the option to go for a bigger challenge after you place well in your own countries.





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Nicho
21-10-2011, 14:18
You might want to change your opinions, then. :rolleyes:

Thanks for your marvellous input

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blongbling
21-10-2011, 14:29
what happens if you don't have a GD in your country...how do you then decide which one to enter?

Nicho
21-10-2011, 14:46
I know, it would take some serious rejigging by games workshop to get a workable system. I think i will just start thinking of the UK games day as more of an international games day.

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SunTzu
21-10-2011, 15:06
No but then its not called World games day is it?

The company's not called World Games Workshop but they still sell models internationally.


How would games workshop not gain from an international competition? that's like saying they don't gain from games day in general.

Ask yourself the question - why don't they do one every week? They can't. They only have so many resources. So why should they do one for the UK, and one in the UK for the world? It's pointless. All so that a very small number of people (ten maybe?) can win UK Golden Demon trophies that they're not good enough to win in the international competition. I'm struggling to see the advantage.


Then you could enter an international competition to have that challenge.

I would just prefer if it ran like this

Country level competition

World wide competition.

That way you have the option to go for a bigger challenge after you place well in your own countries.

I'm curious: do you think you'd win in a UK competition, but not international? If not, I really don't see what the problem is. I think the standard would be pretty comparable (ie. very high) either way.

Grimmeth
21-10-2011, 15:13
If someone is committed enough, and talented enough, to come all the way over to a UK Games Day from Italy to enter and win Golden Demon then kudos to them. There's no way they could guarantee a win and it'd be pretty expensive otherwise!

de Selby
21-10-2011, 15:32
There is a genuine issue here; teams from all over the world come to compete in Africa for the World Cup, but they don't come from all over the world to compete in Africa for the Africa Cup of Nations.

So, instead of functioning as the UK Golden Daemon, the competition is in fact a competition for all who can afford the travel to the UK, and there is no UK specific competition. Other games days would have this problem if anyone ever travelled to them instead of their own games day, but I don't think they do?

It's my opinion that it's fine anyway.
1. The presence of the best in the world enhances the general standard and reputation of GW's competition in their home country. UK painters don't get a specific GD but they get to compete in a world class (or at least european) event instead.
2. The presence of foreign painters has directly led to UK efforts to improve the general standard of painting, like Platoon Brittannica.

Hengest
21-10-2011, 16:20
"I don't want to come as racist or a biggot or whatever because im not"

Apologies if this seems a bit harsh when read out but I think Chaos and Evil summed it up about right - your post sounds like it comes from someone with prejudices who feels the need to discriminate as a result of those prejudices. In this case your prejudice being that a "foreigner" beats you in painting competitions. At best you seem to be suffering from sour grapes

I disagree with your proposal in every way at all levels

winterdyne
21-10-2011, 16:53
There is a genuine issue here; teams from all over the world come to compete in Africa for the World Cup, but they don't come from all over the world to compete in Africa for the Africa Cup of Nations.

So, instead of functioning as the UK Golden Daemon, the competition is in fact a competition for all who can afford the travel to the UK, and there is no UK specific competition. Other games days would have this problem if anyone ever travelled to them instead of their own games day, but I don't think they do?

It's my opinion that it's fine anyway.
1. The presence of the best in the world enhances the general standard and reputation of GW's competition in their home country. UK painters don't get a specific GD but they get to compete in a world class (or at least european) event instead.
2. The presence of foreign painters has directly led to UK efforts to improve the general standard of painting, like Platoon Brittannica.

Heh, not to mention the PB 'invasions' of the continent... couple of trophies at Germany this year from PB members.

Platoon Brittanica also arrange a painters' dinner the day before GD, which is now attended by some of the foreign painters too. It's a proper social event, and those that compete at that level are happy to swap painting stories and inspiration with everyone, regardless of nationality.

DarkMark
21-10-2011, 17:21
If you want to be the best you have to beat the best. Simples.

What should be looked at is the competition judging. Some of the winners were unremarkable to say the least. Exhibit A, the elf on a squashed hedgehog in the open category: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=18500038a

the anti santa
21-10-2011, 17:28
I think it's a sort of a good thing that people come from all over the world to take part in the golden daemon.

I would be a little sad if the same happened to the local Games Days as you'd end up having the same people winning all the time. Or even worse the foreign entries would lose their individual flavour and end up as bland as the UK one.

SunTzu
21-10-2011, 18:12
If you want to be the best you have to beat the best. Simples.

What should be looked at is the competition judging. Some of the winners were unremarkable to say the least. Exhibit A, the elf on a squashed hedgehog in the open category: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=18500038a

To be fair, for that particular one you mention, the paintjob is swish (plus looks like the kind of subtlety that doesn't photograph well). Though it's true - now you've mentioned the hedgehog, I can't unsee it. And I'm not sure why it's in the Open category not Single Miniature.

Some of the others are a bit dubious though. 40K single mini bronze for example, the first one shown on that page! That's the third best painted model in the world? Really?

yabbadabba
21-10-2011, 18:33
How about if we rephrase the original question?

Wouldn't it be great if we had a painting competition that celebrated the best of UK miniature painters?

Yes that would be fantastic, but there are already several competitions like this, some of which get some stunning entants. Most wargames shows will also run painting competitions, as does GW stores. So why no UKGW Games Day type event?

One of the things Games Day does is to raise the profile in a country; its a real press opportunity and as such you want to see the very best local talent on display so as to promote the business in that area. In the UK GW pretty much has complete market saturation, so that aspect of Golden Daemon is not needed. Nor is the need to showcase models to inspire hobbyists onto greater things as Games Day itself has plenty of similar local examples in the club gaming tables, and indeed gaming tables at other shows can be a lot better than the ones at Games Day.

Finally while GW loves your money it has no interest in putting the entire wargames market out of commission. Hence why there is no Ancients, WW2 or any other conventional range of miniatures. As there are already a multitude of other painting awards at shows celebrating UK talent, including GW minis, to put on a Games Day one could cause some damage to these other shows, especially if the UK one becomes a real status symbol.

In the end while the UK Games Day takes place in the UK, GW and its events teams see it as an international event, one that has naturally grown that way, not a local one. As such they would see no reason to change that aspect of Games Day by restricting something as prestigious as Golden Daemon. In addition, somewhat tongue in cheek, GW would also argue that as the home of wargaming, the UK deserves to compete with the best in the world!


So how does that sound?

Nicho
21-10-2011, 19:03
Thanks yabadabba that's what i was trying to get at. Apologies for my cack handed way of presenting myself

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Brother Weasel
21-10-2011, 21:46
And I'm not sure why it's in the Open category not Single Miniature.

open is open to whatever...

he may have already had one in single...

Zywus
21-10-2011, 22:53
Imagine if the 2010 football World Cup had only allowed African teams to enter, because it was hosted in South Africa. Not much of a World Cup, then, is it really?
Although it would be quite weird if the African cup, the Copa America etc. was open to every country in the world but only the European cup was exclusively open to European teams wouldn't it?

As long as every other Golden daemon contest is open to people of every nationality I can't see why the UK golden daemon shouldn't be too.

Sgt John Keel
22-10-2011, 02:24
And I'm not sure why it's in the Open category not Single Miniature.

Open is the only category GW staff can enter in, IIRC. Not sure if Mr Footit still works at GW, but if that's the case …

andyg2006
22-10-2011, 06:25
Nothing against people from other countries winning things, but:

The thing that got me about GD was (I think?) an article about the Team Spain guys who (as well as mostly already having worked for GW) basically made one model each in a year and then took the same model to every GD they could get to and kept entering and re-doing the same one until they got gold's or top 3's and kept going anyway.

GW should have some sort of rule that says one person can't enter the same model in another GD if it's already won a top 3.

Also (sorry for going OT), is there any correlation between which shelf a model gets put onto when they're putting the entrties in the cabinets as opposed to which ones get to be finalists and win?
I think it seems that if you're out onto the 3rd shelf, it means you're going to be a finalist (or potential finalist), as I don't think GD judges look at every model, only the ones on certain shelves (i.e. the people who you give your models to are the people who decide which ones the judges will actually look at).

When I went to GD last, I was told my entry for a category was too big.
Admittedly I'd got my measurements wrong, so genuine mistake (also it wasn't painted very well at all, so none of this is 'sour grapes' for me not getting anywhere in the competition).
However, there was a model right next to mine which was even bigger and I had to point out to them that -if my model was being moved for being too large- then this other one had to be moved as well.

Initially, they wouldn't believe me (even though the size was completely obviously bigger), but then I called someone else over and they even had the temerity to get a tape measure to see if it was bigger (wtf!) and then moved it, but I think they knew the entrant, so no surprises there :-(

SunTzu
22-10-2011, 12:02
GW should have some sort of rule that says one person can't enter the same model in another GD if it's already won a top 3.

I don't think that's really workable (though it might be a nice idea) because how would you track it? - but I do think that the painters, themselves, ought to voluntarily enter something different to every competition; I know I always do (not that I'm ever in with a chance of winning Golden Demon, but for local competitions I occasionally do). Otherwise you could paint one awesome model, pack up your brushes and win every prize for the rest of history, and what's the point in that?

Fundamentally it is up to people's consciences though.


Open is the only category GW staff can enter in, IIRC. Not sure if Mr Footit still works at GW, but if that's the case

Good point, that would explain it.

de Selby
22-10-2011, 15:32
I would support a rule that the same figure can't be entered in more than one GD. It would be no harder to police (in fact much easier) than the rule that the figure has to be the work of the entrant. Just make sure everyone knows the rule and if the same figure places in more than one GD people will notice and GW can withdraw the award.


Although it would be quite weird if the African cup, the Copa America etc. was open to every country in the world but only the European cup was exclusively open to European teams wouldn't it?

As long as every other Golden daemon contest is open to people of every nationality I can't see why the UK golden daemon shouldn't be too.

I presume the idea being proposed is that every GD would have some kind of cachment area (dividing up the globe in a reasonably sensible way) not that UKGD would be different to every other GD.

Brother Weasel
22-10-2011, 16:47
limiting based on country is just silly. If i want to challenge for the best of the best, and i can afford it, why does anyone care, be that at UK, or some other place... just silly, it's a painting competition, not some national pride event.

Ujio
22-10-2011, 23:50
And I'm not sure why it's in the Open category not Single Miniature.

Open Category is open to GW staff as well and the winner of the open works for GW, hence why it isn't in the single mini category.

Charax
23-10-2011, 09:06
Hey guys after looking at the golden daemon winners for games ay uk this year i think its about time that entrance to golden daemon was made country specific, the fact that one foreigner comes along...

My nationality is Italian. I have an Italian passport, an Italian birth certificate, my mother's Italian (Half-Italian isn't a nationality, it's a racial background) and I have never applied for British citizenship. I have, however, lived in the UK since I was three, been educated over here, spent the entirety of my working life here, and I have never indulged in any aspect of my hobby outside of England, barring reading a few rulebooks on holiday.

According to your proposed system, I would be barred from entering Golden Daemons unless I travelled to Italy, something I haven't done in about five years. Hell, I don't even speak Italian anymore.

You, Sir, can go directly to hell.

MarcoSkoll
23-10-2011, 16:13
You, Sir, can go directly to hell.
Do not pass God, do not collect 30 pieces of silver...

Apologies (if not entirely sincere, as I can't help but see some degree of bias in there) to the OP, but I'm of the view that the "UK Games Day" really is the "World Games Day". It was the first and it's the Games Day of GW's home country, thus it's the big central one that everyone pays attention to.

If the home country's (whatever that country may be) talent isn't winning on their home turf despite inevitably outnumbering the outside entrants several to one, then do they REALLY deserve to be winning?

It's one thing to suggest that there should be a showcase of UK painters, it's quite another to suggest that Golden Demon should become barred to all outsiders.

Brother Weasel
23-10-2011, 17:02
if you want to "showcase" painters from a certain country, start a team, and make a website. Golden Demons from any games day event should open to whoever has a gw mini and is there:)

EmperorNorton
23-10-2011, 18:45
Nothing against people from other countries winning things, but:

The thing that got me about GD was (I think?) an article about the Team Spain guys who (as well as mostly already having worked for GW) basically made one model each in a year and then took the same model to every GD they could get to and kept entering and re-doing the same one until they got gold's or top 3's and kept going anyway.

I wonder why anybody would do that.
It must cost a pretty penny. How is it worth the effort?

Inquisitor Kallus
23-10-2011, 19:01
Its basically a chance to advertise yourself if you win and do commission painting. People pay more for works done by Golden Demon winners than they do usually.

andyg2006
24-10-2011, 20:33
I don't think that's really workable (though it might be a nice idea) because how would you track it?

There's a golden daemon site which has the entries of pretty much each and every top 3 winner in all the GD's, plus people have to enter under their own name, so it'd be very easy indeed to see who won what is doing what.

FabricatorGeneralMike
25-10-2011, 00:04
There's a golden daemon site which has the entries of pretty much each and every top 3 winner in all the GD's, plus people have to enter under their own name, so it'd be very easy indeed to see who won what is doing what.

Exactly, with the internet and digital pictures, it's rather easy to see who entered what and where.


Personally I have always seen the UK Golden Demon as ' the Big boys playground' if you can win there you can win anywhere. It's the prestiege GD


I remember way back in the early 90's (91 ir 92 maybe) there was a painter in Vancouver herre named Mark Dance. This guy was a painting god. He won a slayer sword or two. One of his models was a Epic scale Kos that had eyeballs painted onto it!!!. His bone and Green epic warhound was always awsome. I think he took the sword for a diorama of two empire solders fighting a minator with one of the best freehand banners I have ever seen.

Should he of been excluded because he was Canadian? I think not.

horizon
25-10-2011, 05:42
This would be like me banning the French or a certain painter (also Canadian iirc) from the Battlefleet Gothic Competition. Because they are top at the moment but not UK on which the site is hosted.
And I am Dutch running the show. :)

Anyway. It is a competition. Paint with the rest, beat the rest. Someone else won, no matter the nationality, improve and get better. Easy as that. No matter the competition.

Binky
25-10-2011, 16:46
Also (sorry for going OT), is there any correlation between which shelf a model gets put onto when they're putting the entrties in the cabinets as opposed to which ones get to be finalists and win?
I think it seems that if you're out onto the 3rd shelf, it means you're going to be a finalist (or potential finalist), as I don't think GD judges look at every model, only the ones on certain shelves (i.e. the people who you give your models to are the people who decide which ones the judges will actually look at)

Yep, pretty sure the guys putting the models in the cabinet pick the finalists, pretty much as they're putting them in. Certainly saw the guy sticking a finalist sticker straight onto my entry a few years back. Don't know if anyone comes along after and checks if they may have missed any, but guess it's a pretty quick way of weeding out the models that don't stand a chance.

yabbadabba
25-10-2011, 17:03
There is some filtering; its quite normal for people to enter golden daemon with any old mini just so they can get in before anyone else.
Such filtering is essential.