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Sarevok
22-10-2011, 15:21
With old Nightbringer going the way of the squats, its time for 40K to crown a new King of Assault
(yeah I know he could be beaten by some things, but in general I mean)

I think a tooled up Keeper of Secrets can beat just about anything on average.
Bloodthirsters, Skarkbrand, Abaddon, Draigo, Mephiston, Vect who else is there?

Kijamon
22-10-2011, 15:21
Swarmlord?

40 klicks below
22-10-2011, 15:50
Marneus Augustus Calgar

Also, Sanguinor is the HtH heavyweight of the Blood Angel Codex. Mephiston is good, but part of his appeal is that he doubles as psy-defense in your army. If pure HtH-awsomeness is what you are looking for, Sanguinor hits harder and stays in the fight longer.

Chem-Dog
22-10-2011, 16:00
I think a tooled up Keeper of Secrets can beat just about anything on average.

Yeah, a GDoS can pretty much give anything a run for it's money.

What about Kharn though? 2's to hit ANYTHING is a pretty good advantage.

Fawful
22-10-2011, 16:05
Doesn't Kharn lack eternal warrior? That would take him down a couple of notches. The only other big fighter I know of are Ghazkull on the turn he declares a waagh (2+ invulnerable).

LonelyPath
22-10-2011, 16:10
Yeah, a GDoS can pretty much give anything a run for it's money.

What about Kharn though? 2's to hit ANYTHING is a pretty good advantage.

Kharn is a strong contender if you ask me. I hate going up against him on the table. High number of attacks, fair strength, almost guaranteed to hit...

40 klicks below
22-10-2011, 16:13
But only one Str 8+ hit and Kharn is gone. Only a 5++ save too. He's good for what he does and for what he costs, but he doesn't play at the very top. Have him duel Abaddon, Calgar or the Swarmlord and see how well he does.

Mannimarco
22-10-2011, 16:13
This guy (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/BLOODTHIRSTER-GREATER-DAEMON-OF-KHORNE.html)......you were saying something about a Keeper of Secrets?

Kulgur
22-10-2011, 16:33
This guy (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/BLOODTHIRSTER-GREATER-DAEMON-OF-KHORNE.html)......you were saying something about a Keeper of Secrets?

I think we were sticking with stock 40k, not apocalypse

Ulrig
22-10-2011, 16:36
I think ghaz is pretty hard to beat, He has str 10, toughness 5, and immune to instant death. Considering his waagh and 2+ invul would last through two rounds of combat, and then gets a 5+ invul after that if anything is lucky enough to survive.

40 klicks below
22-10-2011, 16:36
I think we were sticking with stock 40k, not apocalypse

Thread derail incoming in 3.. 2.. 1..

LonelyPath
22-10-2011, 17:10
But only one Str 8+ hit and Kharn is gone. Only a 5++ save too. He's good for what he does and for what he costs, but he doesn't play at the very top. Have him duel Abaddon, Calgar or the Swarmlord and see how well he does.

The same can be said for a lot of models ;)

The Grey Knights Grand master is a pretty good one also. Given a few pieces of wargear and he can hold his own fairly well even with just a sword which grants him a 4++ in assault. If he's facing a greater daemon then there's a fair chance taking said greater daemon out with only having to inflict a single wound.

And there's the Brotherhood Champion, only 1 wound, but if he passes a psychic test and gets a hit, the opponent is also a casualty.

Chem-Dog
22-10-2011, 17:32
This guy (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/BLOODTHIRSTER-GREATER-DAEMON-OF-KHORNE.html)......you were saying something about a Keeper of Secrets?

How many points is he? I'll bring the same amount of of points in KoS' and watch you run crying back to Khorne :p


In other news. Lysander FTW.

Mini77
22-10-2011, 17:34
Sevrin Loth is pretty handy. WS6, 5 attacks charging with a Force weapon, 3 psychic tests a turn with a 2+ invulnerable save.

bildo
22-10-2011, 17:40
im going with lysander, 4 wounds, eternal warrior, 3++ save, strength 8 attacks, if he survives he slap you right in the face.

obviously if its against a daemon then draigo all the way, strength 10, same as above, also prefered enemy against said daemon

40 klicks below
22-10-2011, 17:42
im going with lysander, 4 wounds, eternal warrior, 3++ save, strength 8 attacks, if he survives he slap you right in the face.

obviously if its against a daemon then draigo all the way, strength 10, same as above, also prefered enemy against said daemon

Lysander hits Str. 10 too. But he doesn't have enough attacks. Calgar owns him even in his own Codex.

Polaria
22-10-2011, 17:57
Marneus in Termy armor is my bet. Hell, he was my bet even with old Nightbringer around.

Bergen Beerbelly
22-10-2011, 18:24
I'm gonna say Lukas the Trickster. Either he kills his opponent and Lukas wins or the opponent kills Lukas and Lukas still wins :D

Minsc
22-10-2011, 19:56
My bet is on Ghazghkul - 2++ for 2 combatturns and 5 S10 attacks can go a long way.

Abaddon and Draigo are also good contenders, but the former suffers from slapping himself in the face from time to time, and the latter suffers from to few attacks and against Eternal Warriors. (Lysander is a no-go, as he's worse than theese 2 in almost every way.)

Anything without Eternal Warrior and with a poor/no IV-save isn't even worth considering. (Khârn - He's good at slaughtering fodder, but in a 1v1 deathmatch he dies to easily.)

Scammel
22-10-2011, 20:05
Abaddon is a tad unreliable, but providing he doesn't give himself a nasty cut I'd say he rules the roost with Ghaz coming a very close second.

ihavetoomuchminis
22-10-2011, 20:26
And what about Skulltaker on Juggy?

40 klicks below
22-10-2011, 20:30
If Ghaz does his charge/WAAAGH! thing? Not really. Even if Abaddon does, say, 8 to 10 attacks each turn, he'll struggly to put more than a single wound in for each of the first two turns. To be precise, if Abaddon wounds Ghaz 18 times in the first two combat rounds, that's still only 3 wounds. And Ghaz has 4. 2++ is a pain in the ... . In return, 2 turns is more than enough for Ghaz to do 4 wounds against a 4++ save.

That Ghaz-WHAAGH! is nasty. Of course, if you run it without WHAAGH, Ghaz drops down the rankings very, very, very quickly.

TheLaughingGod
22-10-2011, 20:50
Asurmen, instakills you even with Eternal warrior.

Askari
22-10-2011, 20:57
Abaddon crushes Ghaz.

Done it many times. You can force Ghaz to waste his WAAAGH! earlier, or charge in before he declares it, and he is pretty much dead unless Abaddon rolls a 1.

Abby vs. Ghaz, no WAAAGH.

Abbadon average 3.5 extra attacks, rounded down to accomodate 1 = bad.

A7, hit on 3s = ~4 hits
Wound on 2s with re-rolls = ~4 wounds
Ghaz saves one/two = takes 2/3 wounds.

Ghaz gets A5, hit on 4s = 2.5 hits
Wounds on 2s = 2.5 wounds
4+ save = 1.25 wounds taken

Remember, Abaddon hits first at I6, so Ghaz gets one turn less attacks to kill him. Reasonably optimistic outlook means Abaddon kills Ghaz before he even strikes (rolls 4/5/6 attacks and no WAAAGH!)

Infact I've yet to meet any character with the damage output of Abaddon, even Draigo, the Swarmlord and the Sanguinor don't make the cut. Haven't faced Lysander yet, I reckon that'll be a toughie, mainly because of the Thunder Hammer's stun making it quite likely they'll kill each other off.

40 klicks below
22-10-2011, 21:07
Done it many times. You can force Ghaz to waste his WAAAGH! earlier, or charge in before he declares it, and he is pretty much dead unless Abaddon rolls a 1.

Abby vs. Ghaz, no WAAAGH.


Hard to do that if you assume a 1-vs.-1 duel set-up. But yah, with WAAGH, Ghaz is a top-contender. Without, he's not even in the competition.

Abaddon eats Lysander for breakfast though. 3 attacks just doesn't cut it against anything that isn't overtly scared of taking a Str. 10 hit or two.

daboarder
22-10-2011, 21:10
one more for the despoiler...only thing in the game without removes form play that can rock up and one shot a tervigon with almost average rolls. Swarmlord and draigo are probably the only things that rough im up in the M.A.D department.

High speed low drag
22-10-2011, 21:14
I vote KOS, she 225pts and in my experiences with her, (2 conflicts, 3 Throne of skulls and 6 GT's) along with friendly games she has b**ched on everything in CC, my oppents normally shoot her to pieces turn 1-2 cause my locals know when she hits your lines its all over for at least 1 squad

TheLaughingGod
22-10-2011, 21:23
I've had asurmen routinely take Abaddon down in hand to hand, going first, re-rolling hits, even wounding on fives is enough when each would can potentially remove from play.

PostinDirty
22-10-2011, 21:26
Sevrin Loth is pretty handy. WS6, 5 attacks charging with a Force weapon, 3 psychic tests a turn with a 2+ invulnerable save.

only WS5 and without Might of the Ancients he's striking at a very humble str4. used him in a tournament recently and he was great, but by no means a HtH beast.

40 klicks below
22-10-2011, 21:41
I've had asurmen routinely take Abaddon down in hand to hand, going first, re-rolling hits, even wounding on fives is enough when each would can potentially remove from play.

Doesn't Abaddon get a Leadership roll on top before he would have to go? With LD 10, that is 1 in ~ 9 or 10 unsaved wounds that would actually remove Abaddon. Of course there is a "chance" Asurmen takes Abaddon, just as there is a "chance" that random model X takes him by rolling really, really good. But on a normal probability distribution, I would strongly expect Abaddon to be coming out on top more often than Asurmen.

Minsc
22-10-2011, 21:55
Asurmen averages doing 0.5 wounds to Abby. (Diresword kill is a possibility, but unlikely with Ld10.). Need 8 turns to kill him.
Abaddon averages doing 1,25-2,25 wounds to Asurmen, with a 1/6 chance of possibly stabbing himself. Need 2-3 turns to kill him.
It's a quite uneven fight, but their 2 weapons can bump it into Asurmens favour pretty quickly. I'd bet on Abaddon however.

With that said, I wouldn't consider Asurmen in the top3: Even with Eternal Warrior, 2+/4++ and his funky diresword-rules, 4 S4 attacks isn't going to kill very much, very fast.


Swarmlord and draigo

Swarmlord deals; 1 wounds after saves. Abby deals; 1,5-2,5 wounds after saves. (1-1,66 if paroxysm is used.)
Draigo deals: 0,66 wounds after saves (S6). Abby deals; 1-1,66 wounds after saves.

I'd nominate theese 2 as the most likely to win over Abaddon actually. Ghazghkull will also be 'worthy advesary' if he gets to use his Waaagh!

FashaTheDog
22-10-2011, 22:01
Chem-Dog, all of the Forgeworld Daemon Lords are their sacred number times 111, which makes them considerably under-priced as they are worth somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,500 points by effect (priced by fluff, not effect).

Now we should probably establish some ground rules on how to determine this. Assuming we say that a D6 for determining who charges and allow no room for shooting, then I would vote for Zarakynel (Slaanesh Daemon Lord), if you were allowed to summon him/her due to the ability to ignore invulnerable saves as well as being a Gargantuan Creature. Barring Imperial Armour unit, Margret Thatcher using her Waaagh, the Sanguinor, Draigo, Abaddon, Asurman, Valeria if she can survive and get off the Hyperstone Maze, or if you want to almost guarantee a draw at worst a Grey Knights Brotherhood Champion would all be contenders.

I'm thinking a series of duels might be in order. List the top contenders and do a best of three with each possible pairing.

TheLaughingGod
22-10-2011, 22:02
Asurmen vs Abaddon is a pretty boring matchup. Neither will kill the other very quickly (depending on how many bonusattacks Abaddon get's ofcourse), but I think Abaddon will become the victor after 4-5 turns.

With that said, I wouldn't consider Asuremen in the top3: Even with Eternal Warrior, 2+/4++ and his funky diresword-rules, 4 S4 attacks isn't going to kill very much, very fast.

the length of the fight is in Asurmens favor. Increases the chance of Abaddon hurting himself and Asurmen tearing Abaddons soul out with Tethesis.

Frankly, Asurmen is a top player because he's got eternal warrior, T4, attacks first, usually hits on 3s with re-rolls and he's got 2+/4++

He can usually match any character pretty evenly. But I think against Abaddon he does better than most, if only because he's hard to hit and he can last.

40 klicks below
22-10-2011, 22:04
I'm thinking a series of duels might be in order. List the top contenders and do a best of three with each possible pairing.


As noted above, it depends on the Tourney Rules. If Ghaz gets his WAAGH!, he'll win almost certainly. And why no room for shooting if someone does get a charge?

Alarum
22-10-2011, 22:10
I am surprised Logan Grimnar has not been named yet. He has prefered enemy and can change up his weapons to suit who he needs to kill.

FashaTheDog
22-10-2011, 22:20
I was thinking no shooting since the purpose was to find the best hand to hand and not overall assault monster. Plus it avoids a situation where the result is entirely resolved in the the shooting phase. As for Margret Thatcher's Waaagh, I figure that would be determined by that D6 to see who charges and therefore has first turn.

Robot Unicorn
22-10-2011, 22:20
the length of the fight is in Asurmens favor. Increases the chance of Abaddon hurting himself and Asurmen tearing Abaddons soul out with Tethesis.

Frankly, Asurmen is a top player because he's got eternal warrior, T4, attacks first, usually hits on 3s with re-rolls and he's got 2+/4++

He can usually match any character pretty evenly. But I think against Abaddon he does better than most, if only because he's hard to hit and he can last.

The math and anecdotal evidence is against Asurmen though. I run a counts-as Abaddon as my Iron Warriors HQ, and the few times I've seen Asurmen fielded I have routinely trounced him.

Abaddon is one tough customer.. now if only he had warptime.. :angel:

Askari
22-10-2011, 22:24
Abaddon is one tough customer.. now if only he had warptime.. :angel:

Or still had Mastery over his Daemon Weapon...

Minsc
22-10-2011, 22:25
I figure that would be determined by that D6 to see who charges and therefore has first turn.

Irrelevant, as Ghazghkull can shout Waaaagh! in his opponents turn as well.

40 klicks below
22-10-2011, 22:25
Yeah. I think the Diresword is overstated. Even with 4 unsaved wounds, Abaddon's chance to fail only one among a total of 4 LD-saves is still less than 50%, and he only has 4 wounds. Asurmen is more likely to just whittle away Abaddons 4 wounds (if he could live that long) than actually do it with the Diresword-thingy.

FashaTheDog
22-10-2011, 22:28
Irrelevant, as Ghazghkull can shout Waaaagh! in his opponents turn as well.

Oh right, forgot about that since I only ever use it in my turn to give all 200 of my Boyz fleet and see me through the following shooting phase.

Minsc
22-10-2011, 22:33
Your boys would get fleet even if you use it in your opponents turn: The Waaagh lasts for 2 playerturns.

Robot Unicorn
22-10-2011, 22:34
Or still had Mastery over his Daemon Weapon...

We can always hope it's changed in the next codex. I've heard rumors that it's coming shortly after Tau.

FashaTheDog
22-10-2011, 23:08
Your boys would get fleet even if you use it in your opponents turn: The Waaagh lasts for 2 playerturns.

It's the following shooting phase that I need that 2+ invulnerable so the Thatcherite Clan still has a leader.

High speed low drag
22-10-2011, 23:21
Not sure this counts but...

what about scabeiathrax the bloated?

ok he only I3 but with T9 and 10 wounds, reducing your attacks by 1, wounding on a 2+ always and causing double wounds(1 = 2, 2=4 ect) at WS9 and S8...

Archangel_Ruined
22-10-2011, 23:31
Oh, give me an old-skool eversor... Without that as an option I quite like Draigo or Mephiston. The ability to up your strength and drop anyone in a single wound, combined with an invulnerable (or immune to your average instant death) to boot, is a good thing. Mephiston is a turbo-nutter you don't want to fight. He also doesn't have to hide in a unit like Kharn.

Bunnahabhain
22-10-2011, 23:35
A guardsmen, with a bayonet, lots of guts, and even more luck...

Yes, yes, 100 or 200 of them may die, but there are always more, whereas there is only one Abbadon ( etc) and the Imperium has a new saint...

Anyone disagreeing with this? The Inquisition have a bolt pistol round with your name on it waiting. Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

Archangel_Ruined
22-10-2011, 23:39
On that basis a Purifier with a halberd is rather cheap...

Mannimarco
22-10-2011, 23:41
Not sure this counts but...

what about scabeiathrax the bloated?

ok he only I3 but with T9 and 10 wounds, reducing your attacks by 1, wounding on a 2+ always and causing double wounds(1 = 2, 2=4 ect) at WS9 and S8...

He got nerfed badly and is much much weaker than he used to be.

The thing about the daemon lords is they can be used in 2k points armies although they are one of those things "just because you can doesnt mean you should".

Minsc
22-10-2011, 23:42
We're not discussing point-for-point here guys.

And I think we said no apocalypse/forgeworld units.

TheLaughingGod
22-10-2011, 23:44
A guardsmen, with a bayonet, lots of guts, and even more luck...

Yes, yes, 100 or 200 of them may die, but there are always more, whereas there is only one Abbadon ( etc) and the Imperium has a new saint...

Anyone disagreeing with this? The Inquisition have a bolt pistol round with your name on it waiting. Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

on the contrary, we'll sacrifice any number of your kind to harm the servants of Chaos.
-the Eldar.

tezza21
22-10-2011, 23:46
How about jain zar with her banshee mask and high strength power weapon attacks

Archangel_Ruined
22-10-2011, 23:48
I know, like I said, Mephiston or Draigo are bad company. Points for points on a bad-arsed character killing spree the purifiers probably win but as an HQ choice you can't go too far wrong with my shout.

deadrifler
22-10-2011, 23:48
A guardsmen, with a bayonet, lots of guts, and even more luck...

Yes, yes, 100 or 200 of them may die, but there are always more, whereas there is only one Abbadon ( etc) and the Imperium has a new saint...

Anyone disagreeing with this? The Inquisition have a bolt pistol round with your name on it waiting. Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

Except its a pure 1v1, not drown 1 figure with units and pray the weight of corpses smothers the guy. lol

As much as I like Ghaz, I'd probably be more inclined to back Abaddon in a HtH. Someone should make a ladder of this, randomize who fights who, and see who makes it to the finals. lol

Have like a best out of 3 bout. Actually...gimmie a sec.

Bunnahabhain
22-10-2011, 23:50
on the contrary, we'll sacrifice any number of your kind to harm the servants of Chaos.
-the Eldar.

The Enemy of my Enemy is my friend.
- Unknown



011001100101010100010010010000100001111001010100!
-The Necron lord actually running your agenda....

Archangel_Ruined
22-10-2011, 23:50
The arena of death is nothing new.

FashaTheDog
22-10-2011, 23:50
Like An'ggrath, he's not as good as Zarakynel since invulnerable saves can still be taken against him. While T9 will make him immune to a great deal of the competition, there are still enough S6 and higher attacks in the running as well as a few poisoned or similar (eg Zarakynel's Souleater, which never needs worse than a 4+ to wound). On the plus side, Asurman can't touch him, but Valeria can still pull off her Maze 18% of the time or so.

My list for the matches, but feel free to suggest additional contenders:

Abaddon
Asurman
Valeria
Marget Thatcher
Sanguinor
Mephiston
Draigo
Swarmlord
Grey Knights Brotherhood Champion
Vect
Grimnar
Straken, Nork, Kell, 3 Advisors, Laspistol armed Command Squad
Fully equipped Greater Daemons of Slaanesh, Khorne, and Tzeentch
And the long shot...Guardsman Bob

And for the Imperial Armour entries:

Zarakynel
An'ggrath
Scabeithrax


Rules are simple, two men/women/other enter, one man/woman/other leaves. Each fighter fights every other fighter in three matches to the death. Models start 6" away from each other and D6 for first turn, winner goes first and must charge. A fighter that flees and is not caught may act normally from that point. Board size is a barren circle 18" in diameter and fleeing models will take shortest route to edge. There will be two categories, with and without Imperial Armour units.

Bunnahabhain
23-10-2011, 00:03
Does the 1 vs 1 apply, even if the Character in question automatically comes with a unit?

If not, Strakern+
3 x veteran melta gunners ( Why charge? shoot first!)
3 x advisors ( ablative wounds)
2 x body guards( better ablative wounds)
Colour Sargent kell (more power fists always help)
And a chimera, with all the trimmings....

deadrifler
23-10-2011, 00:04
Does the 1 vs 1 apply, even if the Character in question automatically comes with a unit?

If not, Strakern+
3 x veteran melta gunners ( Why charge? shoot first!)
3 x advisors ( ablative wounds)
2 x body guards( better ablative wounds)
Colour Sargent kell (more power fists always help)
And a chimera, with all the trimmings....

HtH means it is literally Hero To Hero. Which is why some heroes who come with all that flavor are considered weaker 1v1. lol

FashaTheDog
23-10-2011, 00:12
Let me ask Mills Lane...he says "I'll allow it." No Chimera though, it is a separate unit.

ihavetoomuchminis
23-10-2011, 00:17
And what about Asdrubal Vect?

He has a 2++ (wich if he fails, he dies, but nevermind....), and 6 attacks with Preferred enemy wich wounds on 3+ with no armour save allowed. He is WS8, I8. If he gets lucky with the invulnerable rolls, he can kill anything in 2-3 rounds max.

But i think a full tooled KoS is one of the best HtH fighters, if not the best.

Skarbrand is another contendant.... WS10 with re-rolls and S8...

High speed low drag
23-10-2011, 00:35
What about KoS, ok its 225pts but at I10 and 6 attacks at str 7, the enemy will probs of fallen the bottom of his 6 foot grave before his muscles even fathom the idea of twitching...

Tigrarus
23-10-2011, 00:51
The Great Wolf Logan Grimnar

TheLaughingGod
23-10-2011, 01:23
The Enemy of my Enemy is my friend.
- Unknown



011001100101010100010010010000100001111001010100!
-The Necron lord actually running your agenda....

you hid from us and now none of our kind take you seriously.
-Eldar farseer who is actually manipulating the Necron lord into thinking he is relevant at all.

The Marshel
23-10-2011, 01:26
And what about Asdrubal Vect?

He has a 2++ (wich if he fails, he dies, but nevermind....), and 6 attacks with Preferred enemy wich wounds on 3+ with no armour save allowed. He is WS8, I8. If he gets lucky with the invulnerable rolls, he can kill anything in 2-3 rounds max.



Vect is far too fragile. Any hq with an inv save and s6 or more waste him. Without eternal warrior hqs like lynsander, the swarmlord, abbadon etc will soak the wounds they take up and then only need to get one pass vect. Basically it's 6 wounds to kill vect, which is going to be less then most other hth powerhouses

'IllBillyOrk
23-10-2011, 02:08
Oi uze lot is all mukin about it only takes an ork and 'is choppa ta git some proppa fightin done! But in the HtH category I like ghazzy but unless he has some nob body guards he can be killed pretty quick if his waaagh! isnt used since he is essentially I1,Logan Grimnar would be my first choice followed by Abbadon

Ace Rimmer
23-10-2011, 09:08
Skulltaker on a chariot of khorne? Rending instant death on a 4+ sounds good to me.....

laudarkul
23-10-2011, 09:14
Angron... Because brings also some craziness in battle.
If only GW then Vect....

Latro_
23-10-2011, 09:51
Yarrick lol, not the best but he can hold his own!

Gets up from last wound on 3+ (potentially forever)
T4 with ET
Have to re-roll to wound him
Has a power fist

gutsmaka
23-10-2011, 10:12
ghazkul uruk mag thraka. then some grey knight I expect mutter $#^$@# overpowered@^$*mumble

inq.serge
23-10-2011, 10:46
and D6 for first turn, winner goes first and must charge

Vect seizes the initiative on 4+, don't forget that. It's one of his important combat powers.

Wrath
23-10-2011, 11:05
Farsight by far.

....what? Don't look at me like that. :Ş

Askari
23-10-2011, 11:06
Anything that relies on Force Weapon/Instant Death just doesn't belong on the list with the sheer amount of Eternal Warriors in this list.
Same for anything that doesn't have an Invulnerable save, like Mephiston, considering how easy it is for characters like Lysander, Abaddon and Ghaz to put 4 Wounds on anything T6 or under...

I reckon Zarakynel is the winner though, no Armour OR Invulnerables? Ouch.

fluffymcfluff
23-10-2011, 12:15
I'll take a bloodthirster any day, the KoS a close 2nd.

Last night I had a game with one of my regular opponets who has just started a slaanesh daemon army, out came the blood god to see whats up.

I mentioned this thread during our game, so we decided to see who was the best. long story short, KoS got spanked. My opponet said it was due to bad dice so we did it again for the fun of it, overall we did the combat between the KoS and the bloodthirster five times ( we were bored ) bloodthirster won 4 out of 5 times.

Pyriel
23-10-2011, 12:24
UFC equivalents:
lightweights and welterweights class(lighter weights/points etc; super-efficient):
the best all-around guy(think Georges st Pierre) is Vulcan. the "best game planner in the sport"(simple and effective game plan: melta/flame them to death!), effective at "striking"/shooting(heavy flamer iirc) and somewhat effective at "wrestling & ground game"/cc too.
the best wrestler(cc fighter; think Matt Hughes in his prime) is imho a wild card: marshal with thunderhammer & storm shield, can enter rhinos to boost other squads, an has decent str 8 attacks with rerolls and has 3++ save. for the cost of 125 points he is excellent.

the best "middleweights":
a dominant fighter for the "somehow cheap in points/affordable" class, like anderson "the spider" silva. the answer imho is easy. Lysander is cheap enough (hitting exactly the "middleweight" psychological barier of 200 pts) to include in many forces and tremendously powerful for a shooty-codex-character.


the best "heavier weights"(lots more points and usualy cannot enter rhinos):
i'd say a good Brock Lesnar equivalent is Mehiston: tremendous stats... but he could work on his striking defense!(=no inv save)
the truly best heavyweights , though, are draigo and calgar, and maybe vect.

top pound-for-pound fighters:
these are fighters that many people could/would include in their force despite the internet saying armywide buffs are better than combat stats, due to somehow low cost.

best pound for pound fighter is Vulcan. closely followed by marshal wildard. these are both HQ choices that their respective codices could definitely use in a good list, despite focusing on combat instead of psy defense/psychic power buffs/FOC changes etc. (yeah, vulcan gives great armywide bonus, but not as powerful a bonus as a librarian; he just gives great bonus AND kicks ****, hence why i consider him a combat character)

Blink
23-10-2011, 12:28
Was the Nightbringer ever really on top? I mean... The Swarmlord could end his life pretty easily.

I have to agree with Ghaz, Lysander, or Abaddon.

Azulthar
23-10-2011, 16:08
you hid from us and now none of our kind take you seriously.
-Eldar farseer who is actually manipulating the Necron lord into thinking he is relevant at all.
"A long, long time ago, over a thousand of your generations ago in fact, our people ruled across the heavens. Few races could oppose our might, and of those most ancient and malignant powers that could, all were dormant at that time and we were wise enough to let them slumber. Unlike your own folk, I might add, who could well bring about the doom of us all with their blundering around."

- Dark Eldar Asdrubael Vect on the Necrons. Seems like he feared them, and that's something :p

As for the competition, I'm going for the Swarmlord.

Lathrael
23-10-2011, 16:56
If Vect had eternall warrior, he could easily be on top, but he haven't so he's out of the list.

High speed low drag
23-10-2011, 17:46
Has anyone considerd a necron lord with destroyer body, res orb and phase shifter and warscythe

he would be T6 S5 with 3 attacks base, a 3+ armour/4+ invun 12" move and he ignores both armour and invun saves

AlphariusOmegon20
23-10-2011, 23:44
This guy (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/BLOODTHIRSTER-GREATER-DAEMON-OF-KHORNE.html)......you were saying something about a Keeper of Secrets?

Agreed, he's the King now, with Zarakynel a real damn close second.

Draconis
24-10-2011, 01:40
If we are talking theoretical, then a Chaos Terminator lord with daemon weapon and mark of khorne. A possible 17 power weapon attacks at ws 6 would be fun. Its rare, but twice now I've used him and twice I've gotten boxcars on rolls.

Rogzor87
24-10-2011, 01:48
I would like to put my vote on a Solitaire. To bad they aren't legal tournament wise anymore but I still do bust out my 3rd edition Harlequinn army every now and then.

ws8 6-11 attacks, hits on 3's wounds on 2's(on a 6 to wound it auto kills you), Ignores armour.... you only hit him on 6's but he has no save and only t3.

The Marshel
24-10-2011, 04:14
I would like to put my vote on a Solitaire. To bad they aren't legal tournament wise anymore but I still do bust out my 3rd edition Harlequinn army every now and then.

ws8 6-11 attacks, hits on 3's wounds on 2's(on a 6 to wound it auto kills you), Ignores armour.... you only hit him on 6's but he has no save and only t3.

is he immune to ID and does the autokill override EW? (i'd assume not but gw has this thing against consistency)

If not EW then to fragile imo. hitting only on 6s is cancelled out by lack of save. Consider the odds of hitting someone on a 4+. wounding someone on a 4+ and them saving on a 4+ being at 12.5%. odds of hitting on 6 and wounding on a 4+ is 4%. sure thats about a 3rd less, but i'm only saying wound on 4+ to try and establish a consistent control. most the guys listed here will wound on 2+ . hitting on 6+ and wounding on 2+ is about 13.888%, so actually more likely.

Certainly hits like a tank but has the same problem as vect, to fragile

cynic
24-10-2011, 11:24
Prince Yriel is rather tasty in HtH too.

He's probably the ONLY model who can wipe out 30 orks in 1 round of combat, singlehanded?!!! Nice!

Memnos
24-10-2011, 11:36
The best hand to hand person in 40K is the Bloodthirster. One on one, nothing beats the Bloodthirster.

Sekhmet
24-10-2011, 11:45
The best hand to hand person in 40K is the Bloodthirster. One on one, nothing beats the Bloodthirster.

I'm pretty sure Draigo can.

The Marshel
24-10-2011, 11:50
The C'tan eat bloodthirsters for breakfast.

but isnt the point of this most recent "best hth Sc" that the ctan are leaving this game for that great big 6' x 4' in the sky and we must now reassess who is the new king of smashing heads in?

no-one is going to have to worry about dealing with current ctan soon

Cheeslord
24-10-2011, 11:50
The best hand to hand person in 40K is the Bloodthirster. One on one, nothing beats the Bloodthirster.

Oddly, several posters seem to feel the KOS beats the Bloodthirster, or at least has more all-round utility.

Bloodthirster has highest possible WS, Furious Charge (I think), 3+/4++. Not sure how many attacks.

KOS has highest initiative and more attacks (and respectable WS). Only the 4++ save however.

1 on 1 it would come down to the relative number of attacks and who got the charge (Bloodthirster is faster so probably would get the charge, though I'm pretty sure KOS has =grenades so all the BT is gaining is +1 strength on the charge, though that is a very good thing to gain)

I guess against the average opponent the extra attacks count more than the extra WS, since you never get better than hitting on a 3+ (though the Bloodthirster has the rare ability to make MEQ only hit it on a 5+)

Personally I never liked the KOS model (silly cow head or silly punk head - the choice is yours!) and felt sad it was the second slowest GD (only better than Nurgle) when Slaanesh is supposed to be the fast part of the army.

Mark.

<edit> Well theres a strong rumour the new C'tan will get EW, so at this point it's just possible that a H2H specced C'tan Shard might still be in the running, though without their "Ignore Invulnerable saves" schtic (NB that must take a proze for worst fluff justification of a special rule ever ... it doesn't matter you are protected by a magical/super science forcefield...my hands and feet can form blades and stabbing weapons so that will easily get through to you..."),they will need to be good to play with the big boys.

40 klicks below
24-10-2011, 12:21
Both Draigo and Ghaz on a WAAAGH still beat the Bloodthirster, possibly the KOS does him also. I don"t think the Bloodthirster really gets into the top 3.

Memnos
24-10-2011, 12:27
Both Draigo and Ghaz on a WAAAGH still beat the Bloodthirster, possibly the KOS does him also. I don"t think the Bloodthirster really gets into the top 3.

Ghazgkhull beats the Bloodthirster? He gets one round with a 2+ invulnerable and on that round manages 2.5 hits, 2 wounds and 1 gets through his invulnerable save.

The Bloodthirster hits on 3s, wounds on 2s and Ghazghkull has fewer wounds.

Draigo might, but the Keeper going against the Special Character gets 4.5 hits, 3 wounds, 1.5 after saves. The special character Bloodthirster gets 5.33 hits, wounding on 2s, so well over 2 wounds.

MidnightKid333
24-10-2011, 13:12
Swarmlord?

no no, I think you mean "SWARMLORD!"

He is the only thing that can come close and sometimes beat the Nightbringer in combat. I vote swarmlord. Swarmord wins...

40 klicks below
24-10-2011, 14:26
Ghazgkhull beats the Bloodthirster? He gets one round with a 2+ invulnerable and on that round manages 2.5 hits, 2 wounds and 1 gets through his invulnerable save.


The 2++ last two rounds.

Sarevok
24-10-2011, 14:29
Bloodthirster with BOTBG should be able to beat Draigo.
Skarbrand doesnt get this.

As for KoS vs Bloodthirster, assuming KoS is maxed out:

KoS cause 1 wound a turn on BT
BT cause 1.111111 wound a turn to KoS

But the KoS is hitting first

Oakwolf
24-10-2011, 17:21
The BT will get a good first turn though, and that will tip the scales for the remainder of the fight. It's a good fight, but against the odds for the KoS.


so...for the competition, my bets would be...

Super heroes/Lords: blood thirster.

heroes: Skulltaker (on chariot or not, really doesn't matter). The guy trumps almost all other hero-level characters.

Sarevok
24-10-2011, 17:42
KoS nullifies Bloodthirster's charging bonus too

Borgnine
24-10-2011, 17:46
Prince Yriel is rather tasty in HtH too.

He's probably the ONLY model who can wipe out 30 orks in 1 round of combat, singlehanded?!!! Nice!

I'm not overly familiar with Yriel, how's he gonna do it?

Crowe's got a good chance of killing a very significant number of boys. First he rocks off his psychic power to kill nearly half of them and then uses his defensive stance for a 2+/4++ rerollable saves. The other half of the boys die due to fearless wounds ;)

AlphariusOmegon20
24-10-2011, 18:03
Both Draigo and Ghaz on a WAAAGH still beat the Bloodthirster, possibly the KOS does him also. I don"t think the Bloodthirster really gets into the top 3.

I might agree with normal BT's and KoS's, but Zarakynel and An'graath are quite clearly top 3.

The question is who's top in the GAME, which means you must consider Apoc units also.

Neither Ghazzy nor Draigo, especially Draigo, despite what his fluff says, stands up to Zara or An'graath in a one on one fight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Borgnine
24-10-2011, 18:33
Looking at it statistically, shouldn't the regular bloodthirster beat ghaz even with two rounds of waaagh?

Sarevok
24-10-2011, 18:40
If a Bloodthirster takes BOTBG he gets a 2++ against Draigo

Bunnahabhain
24-10-2011, 19:03
Strakern and his ( obligatory) command squad are still reasonable here.

Yes, he only get 4 S6 I3 Power weapon attacks, ( 3+/ 5++) and confers counter attack + furious charge on the whole unit, but his escort makes up for a lot.

3 pointless advisors- ablative wounds.
2 bodyguards - can have wounds allocated to them from the offcier
3 BS4 melta gunners- good chance of doing serious damage, before becoming ablative wounds
and Colour Sargent Kell, for an extra two S6 power fist attacks

and to kill 30 ork boys in one round of combat?
Blood angel Dreadnaught, with blood talons. Getting more attacks that phase for each kill, and then forcing the remainder to take Fearless saves? It hurts.

massey
24-10-2011, 19:26
I'm not overly familiar with Yriel, how's he gonna do it?

Crowe's got a good chance of killing a very significant number of boys. First he rocks off his psychic power to kill nearly half of them and then uses his defensive stance for a 2+/4++ rerollable saves. The other half of the boys die due to fearless wounds ;)

He can drop a pieplate on top of himself in HTH once a game.

As far as "best HTH fighter", you really have to define what that means, and then establish a way to get a fair answer. Some of the guys match up like rock, paper, scissors. X can kill Y every time because Y lacks eternal warrior, Y kills Z because of a special rule, Z kills X because X lacks grenades, and so on. That's not even counting guys like Kharne or Ragnar who make great room-sweepers. Kharne is a fantastic value for his points, 7 attacks on the charge that hit on a 2+ and wound on a 2+. That's 5 dead marines on average, plus he instant kills T3 characters when charging. Still, he's dead meat if he hits a powerhouse like Lysander.

Each guy has his own strengths and weaknesses. If you only compare top-end character killers against one another, you're gonna get a lot of Abaddons, Ghazkulls, and Draigos. But then you've got "dirty trick" guys too like the Brother Champion (or whatever his name is) and Lukas the Trickster who screw over expensive characters. How do you assign a value to that? Sure, they're great for sucker-punching a big bad, but if they die to a sergeant with a power fist, are they really that great?

Oakwolf
24-10-2011, 20:08
Lelith Hesperax -should- have made it to this list...imho.

DJ3
24-10-2011, 20:10
Ahriman, while completely useless in terms of combat, has about 50/50 to poof you into a Spawn from CC if he's going first.

Similarly, Fateweaver is the CC champion of the Daemon Codex for the purposes of 'duels', solely because a Keeper of Secrets or Bloodthirster can't kill him in three turns and after that he's probably turned them into a Spawn.

That fourth turn comes before anything mentioned so far has any chance of killing him, except maybe Abbadon--they both pass that 50% threshold practically simultaneously, so it basically comes down to whose turn is first.

Anything that isn't T5+ doesn't even have a chance to begin with.

Robot Unicorn
24-10-2011, 20:14
Lelith Hesperax -should- have made it to this list...imho.

From a fluff standpoint, maybe. She really isn't as impressive as you'd think on the tabletop.

Blink
24-10-2011, 20:37
The problem with the Swarmlord is that, for some reason, he doesn't have eternal warrior.

Rogzor87
24-10-2011, 21:08
is he immune to ID and does the autokill override EW? (i'd assume not but gw has this thing against consistency)

If not EW then to fragile imo. hitting only on 6s is cancelled out by lack of save. Consider the odds of hitting someone on a 4+. wounding someone on a 4+ and them saving on a 4+ being at 12.5%. odds of hitting on 6 and wounding on a 4+ is 4%. sure thats about a 3rd less, but i'm only saying wound on 4+ to try and establish a consistent control. most the guys listed here will wound on 2+ . hitting on 6+ and wounding on 2+ is about 13.888%, so actually more likely.

Certainly hits like a tank but has the same problem as vect, to fragile

Its from 3rd edition but yes how it is worded ignores Eternal Warrior.... He will probly go first almost everytime being like ini 8 or 9

Oakwolf
24-10-2011, 21:17
(on Lelith Hesperax)


From a fluff standpoint, maybe. She really isn't as impressive as you'd think on the tabletop.

Yeah that was my sarcastic point :). On the tabletop she's far from whatever the fluff wanted her to be.

Robot Unicorn
24-10-2011, 21:31
Yeah that was my sarcastic point :). On the tabletop she's far from whatever the fluff wanted her to be.

Ah, alright. Honestly, I missed your sarcasm. With so many people having suggested some pretty goofy choices for HtH "masters", I just assumed it was another zany nomination. ;)

Chem-Dog
24-10-2011, 21:51
Chem-Dog, all of the Forgeworld Daemon Lords are their sacred number times 111

Right , so I'm looking at 3-4 KoS's on that guy, He's toast! :D

Reflex
24-10-2011, 22:37
Clearly its not the Emperor.. (ba dum chi!)

Generally I find greater daemons a pain, but with 5th edition there are so many monstars and so many ways to take them down I dont find any of them all that great anymore, just annoying.

But in a perfect world I would say any Greater Daemon is a tough nut.

AlphariusOmegon20
25-10-2011, 00:20
From a fluff standpoint, maybe. She really isn't as impressive as you'd think on the tabletop.

Not against the real HTH heavies, no, but against rank and file, she's a monster.

Oakwolf
25-10-2011, 03:21
And she probably arranges her fights in the arena anyway ;)

MidnightKid333
25-10-2011, 12:06
I think it's just heroes to hero here. If you have to add other things like whatever BOTBG means then it shouldn't count.

Oakwolf
25-10-2011, 12:11
That's not completely fair (if such a thing exists). Blessing of the Blood God costs little more than grenades for the BT.

Are we comparing stock heroes with no gear? Then special characters shouldn't be included since they're typically full of it.

Cheeslord
25-10-2011, 12:19
I thought the "rules" were essentially just a single model, with any upgrades it can legally take. Not sure if walkers are allowed, but in general they don't have that high initiatives so any MC or S10 attacks would probably shred them before they could swing anyway. Assume no Forgeworld/Apocalypse stuff or there would be titans and 999 point super-daemons to worry about.

Mark.

cynic
25-10-2011, 14:25
I'm not overly familiar with Yriel, how's he gonna do it?


Its fantastic :) Once per game he can place a st6 ap3 pie-plate ontop of himself, instead of normal CC attacks.

Yriel charges Ork mob. Mob surrounds Yriel. Yriel uses "eye of wrath" pie-plate, which normally catches 15+ orks. IF he survives the Ork attacks and ubiquitous powerklaw attacks, the Orks lose combat and take overwounds, finishing them off, if your lucky. :D

We did this in the X Legion doubles tornament last year, Yriel managed to wipe out 30 Orks single handed, only to roll 1 for his masacre move and get intakilled by a rockit to the face the following turn.

Askari
25-10-2011, 15:13
I think it's just heroes to hero here. If you have to add other things like whatever BOTBG means then it shouldn't count.

BOTBG is an upgrade for the Bloodthirster and means Blessings of the Blood God, it essentially makes the Bloodthirster invincible vs. Force Weapons and damaging psychic powers.

Why would a typical Bloodthirster upgrade not count for this, if you're allowing Special Characters?

gwarsh41
25-10-2011, 16:00
Soul Grinder, I have had them go toe to toe with abbadon several times. I had Bjorn the fell handed take out abbadon in CC as well. Vehicles really can throw a nasty stick into some of these characters who do not have a really high str. Even with that, they still have to roll on that damned vehicle damage chart.

@Askari:

I think they are wanting special characters, but I know a lot of people have mentioned a tooled out keeper of secrets in the beginning. A tooled out Bloodthirster would definitely be allowed in this discussion, the character thirster is fun too.

This discussion is about what individual model is the toughest in a 1v1 fight.

wyvirn
25-10-2011, 17:03
I'm surprised no one mentioned the Doom of Malaniai so far. He's a great tar pit, and unless you've got a power fist or some other ID power, you're almost guaranteed to loose. Even then he's got a 3++. Meanwhile, he sucks you're soul out before you can hit back. His normal (albeit average) attacks are just icing on the cake.

Askari
25-10-2011, 17:26
He's a great tar pit, and unless you've got a power fist or some other ID power, you're almost guaranteed to loose. Even then he's got a 3++. Meanwhile, he sucks you're soul out before you can hit back. His normal (albeit average) attacks are just icing on the cake.

Thing is, most of these characters DO inflict ID. In addition, the Doom doesn't ignore armour. It doesn't stand do any real HTH character.

Oakwolf
25-10-2011, 17:48
There needs to be some categories to enlist the characters too, and perhaps a completely different competition for special characters, because they tend to shine in their own little world compared to DIY ones.

1) The Warlord
This category would be for all-rounders, able to dish it out and take it back.

2) The Assassin
This character is tailored to kill other characters in a 1v1 match up.

3) The Slaughterer
This category would be for characters made to kill infantry of any type.

4) The Destroyer
Basically a group for characters who have the prowess to pop vehicles.

Categories are not exclusive, so for example in a special character competition, it'd be possible for Ghazghkull to run in all four, but someone like Lelith Hesperax would likely be only running for "Slaughterer" title.

massey
25-10-2011, 18:26
As I said earlier, certain characters have certain weaknesses. Kharne is a monster against many, but he can't hurt an Ironclad Dread unless he's shooting it with his plasma pistol. Against one of those, he's a red smear. Straken, on the other hand, even with a retinue will get slaughtered by Kharne, but will tear an Ironclad to bits and pieces, since he rolls 2D6 for armor penetration.

Even if you're good at character vs character combat, I don't think you can claim to be "40k's greatest HTH fighter" (which is the only thing the original post gave us as far as guidelines go) if you are going to get your ass beat by a dozen orks. I think we need to set a certain minimum standard for the competition (i.e., you must be this badass to ride this ride), and then do a round-robin where everyone fights everyone else. The winner is the guy with the best win-loss record at the end.

My suggested minimum: "So, can you kill a tactical squad?"

Askari
25-10-2011, 18:30
My suggested minimum: "So, can you kill a tactical squad?"

Abaddon says "Yup, in one turn, before they even strike".

Borgnine
25-10-2011, 19:52
As I said earlier, certain characters have certain weaknesses. Kharne is a monster against many, but he can't hurt an Ironclad Dread unless he's shooting it with his plasma pistol. Against one of those, he's a red smear. Straken, on the other hand, even with a retinue will get slaughtered by Kharne, but will tear an Ironclad to bits and pieces, since he rolls 2D6 for armor penetration.


I thought Kharn had 2D6 penetration because of his greasy axe?

Minsc
25-10-2011, 20:07
Indeed. Khârn would average 2 penetrating hits and 2 glancing hits against a Ironclad on the charge.

massey
25-10-2011, 22:38
Abaddon says "Yup, in one turn, before they even strike".

No doubt on him. But those one wound GK guys with the cheap shot psychic power? They don't count.

@Borgnine:

Guess I goofed on Kharne. Forgot he had an extra D6. You get what I was going for though. By the way, loved you in Airwolf.

Borgnine
26-10-2011, 01:18
@Borgnine:

Guess I goofed on Kharne. Forgot he had an extra D6. You get what I was going for though. By the way, loved you in Airwolf.

No worries. I even half forgot myself until you brought it up. I think people get so focused on how awesome he is against troops that they lose sight of his vehicle killing prowess :)

Walls
26-10-2011, 06:21
I think it's Draigo without question. He has every tool to beat pretty much anything in the game.

Oakwolf
26-10-2011, 12:25
While a rather extreme fighter, Draigo will fall to a blood thirster, which is a serious contender for the spot.

I'd think Ghazghkull is holding the palm so far where special characters are concerned.

Minsc
26-10-2011, 13:10
I think it's Draigo without question. He has every tool to beat pretty much anything in the game.

Wouldn't a simple Ironclad be a real pain for Draigo to beat? Afaik he only has his S5(6) attacks and krak-grenades vs vehicles.

Sekhmet
26-10-2011, 13:24
While a rather extreme fighter, Draigo will fall to a blood thirster, which is a serious contender for the spot.

Would he fall to one? Seems like a close fight, both have high strength, very good invulnerable saves, and a lot of wounds.

Tethylis
26-10-2011, 13:50
Is a 1v1 match really the best way to determine the best fighter? I would rather have an endurance style match up. Say pick 10 of 40k's most commonly encountered units and put each fighter in question up against these, whoever scores the most wins would then be declared the best all round fighter. For example common units could include: 10 tac marines, 20 orc boyz, 10 genestealers, 5 termies, 3 unique thunderwolfs, 5 unique nobz, 3 killa kanz, 1 dreadnought, 30 guardsmen, 1 hive tyrant, now see how well each fighter does in a best of 3 match (1 charging, 1 being charged & 1 neither charges) against all of these to determine the best 'battlefield' fighter.

Memnos
26-10-2011, 14:08
Is a 1v1 match really the best way to determine the best fighter? I would rather have an endurance style match up. Say pick 10 of 40k's most commonly encountered units and put each fighter in question up against these, whoever scores the most wins would then be declared the best all round fighter. For example common units could include: 10 tac marines, 20 orc boyz, 10 genestealers, 5 termies, 3 unique thunderwolfs, 5 unique nobz, 3 killa kanz, 1 dreadnought, 30 guardsmen, 1 hive tyrant, now see how well each fighter does in a best of 3 match (1 charging, 1 being charged & 1 neither charges) against all of these to determine the best 'battlefield' fighter.

Bloodthirster vs:

10 Tactical Marines - Bloodthirster rolls them.


Bloodthirster vs 20 Orc Boys - Close fight, but Bloodthirster wins in 3rd round when they cease to be fearless. Throw in a nob with power klaw and the rules change.

10 Genestealers vs Bloodthister - Bloodthirster rolls them.

5 Termies - Bloodthirster rolls them unless every single one has thunder
hammer and storm shields.

5 unique Nobs - Bloodthirster rolls them.

30 Guardsmen - Bloodthirster rolls them unless they get to shoot and get off 'First rank fire, second rank fire' or if there's a Commisar that the Bloodthirster can't attack.

3 kill kans - Bloodthirster rolls them.

1 Dreadnought - Bloodthirster rolls them.

1 Hive Tyrant - Bloodthirster rolls them.

3 unique Thunderwolves - Bloodthirster rolls them.

Vipoid
26-10-2011, 14:13
Skulltaker on a Chariot of Khorn seems quite good. 5 power weapon attacks that rend and cause instant-death on a 4+ seem very good (even if it is nulified somewhat by most of his competitors having EW).

Also, are we talking about the best HtH fighter for their cost, or just the best HtH fighter period? If the former, then I'd like to nominate Saint Celestine, who seems really amazing in combat for just 115 points - WS7, I7, 5 attacks with (essentially) an agoniser, a 4+ invulnerable save and *really* eternal warrior.

Isstvan
26-10-2011, 14:54
Ahem... Best hand to hand fighter is by far Lelith Hesperax, who goes to war next to naked with no special weapons except fishhooks in her hair. Special armor? Nope! She's too sexy for that, as she pole-dances her way around bullets and blades alike. She hits before most units in the game, tears them apart, and them dances in the bloody mess of what's left over.

Oakwolf
26-10-2011, 14:58
In a naked (nothing but a hand weapon) fight against most HQ of the game, yeah, lelith would stand a chance, but again...naked greater demons are still up there. That's why most people compare them with special characters.


(on Draigo vs BT)

Would he fall to one? Seems like a close fight, both have high strength, very good invulnerable saves, and a lot of wounds.

Hehe, the fight is made one-sided due to the blessings of the blood god (very cheap gift), which means the BT is pretty much immune to Draigo's high strenght (it is a force weapon if i remember correctly)

FashaTheDog
26-10-2011, 15:56
Draigo's weapon strikes at S10 against units with a psyker or a daemon, it is not a psychic power, although it is a Force Weapon. It also has the Daemonbane maphack, which requires any daemon or psyker suffering an unsaved wound from it to pass a Ld test at the end of the phase or be removed, and is worded just like that.

Walls
26-10-2011, 16:16
Yeah, he doesn't smash a Thirster, but beats or draws him by math... if I did it right.

wyvirn
26-10-2011, 16:23
Thing is, most of these characters DO inflict ID. In addition, the Doom doesn't ignore armour. It doesn't stand do any real HTH character.
So, anyone without eternal warrior is automatically out? Seems somewhat arbitrary. Besides, the big damage comes from the shooting phase, and that does ignore armor. And for the record, a good deployment means that he'll be at S10 as well.
What I think makes the doom such a dangerous contender is that a single bad roll will kill almost anything, and you have to roll once every turn.

Askari
26-10-2011, 18:39
And for the record, a good deployment means that he'll be at S10 as well.

Assuming this is a one-on-one scenario, hero-on-hero scenario, no he won't as there's no-one else's soul to suck on. And a single S4 model that doesn't ignore armour is no threat to most of these beasties, even if it does have a 3++ save.


Besides, the big damage comes from the shooting phase, and that does ignore armor.

This thread is titled "40ks greatest HTH fighter is...". I take that to mean hand-to-hand?

Statistically, the Doom is unlikely to really hurt things such as a Bloodthirster, Abaddon or Ghaz. And the reason that anything without Eternal Warrior should be looked down on is purely because, as I've said, a lot of these characters inflict Instant Death (Draigo and Mephiston Force Weapons, Archon's Huskblade, Asurmen's Diresword-thing, Ghaz and Lysander S10, Abaddon's S8) which means you essentially only have one wound without EW. So not arbitrary at all, it's just without it, you stand little chance.

Yabyahoo
31-10-2011, 12:44
the Deceiver ofcourse.

Oakwolf
31-10-2011, 14:07
Weren't C'tan disqualified from the thread?

Sure they were nasties but from what i have read so far people stopped considering them since they might go poof for next book.

So, looking at names steadily mentionned in this thread so far, we'd have:

Draigo
Ghazkull
Bloodthirster
Keeper of Secrets (not sure what this demon has over a BT to be honest)

Which one comes on top?

Vipoid
31-10-2011, 14:17
Weren't C'tan disqualified from the thread?

Sure they were nasties but from what i have read so far people stopped considering them since they might go poof for next book.

So, looking at names steadily mentionned in this thread so far, we'd have:

Draigo
Ghazkull
Bloodthirster
Keeper of Secrets (not sure what this demon has over a BT to be honest)

Which one comes on top?

Isn't the Swarmlord a contender as well?

Rated_lexxx
01-11-2011, 00:06
Isn't the Swarmlord a contender as well?

I think the no EW really hurts the swarmlord.

I must have really good luck with the BT with my orks but I haven't seen this devastating CC monster you speak of. I have had both Nobz and Boyz(with nob upgrade because any decent list takes it) take him down. To many wounds for the BT to get through.

That doesn't matter anyway because we are talking about one on one

I have taken down a BT with Ghazkull a few times so to say it's a instant win or close to it isn't true.

Anyway the best way to see who is the greatest is to have a round robin type of match. Find the top 6 or 8 and have them fight each guy best 2 out of 3.

Vipoid
01-11-2011, 09:33
I think the no EW really hurts the swarmlord.

I'm not so sure - he's still T6, and has psychic defence, so it shouldn't really be easy to ID him.

Robot Unicorn
01-11-2011, 17:16
Weren't C'tan disqualified from the thread?

Sure they were nasties but from what i have read so far people stopped considering them since they might go poof for next book.

So, looking at names steadily mentionned in this thread so far, we'd have:

Draigo
Ghazkull
Bloodthirster
Keeper of Secrets (not sure what this demon has over a BT to be honest)

Which one comes on top?

You forgot Abaddon and Lysander.

Minsc
01-11-2011, 17:38
Lysander is out, to few attacks to matter against 3++/4++ EW's. Also less survivable than Draigo.

Abaddon is a contender however.

Robot Unicorn
01-11-2011, 17:44
Lysander is out, to few attacks to matter against 3++/4++ EW's. Also less survivable than Draigo.

Abaddon is a contender however.

I wouldn't rule him out just because of his lack of attacks.

Lysander is as hard as nails, and tends to be GW employees choice for character battles held in-store. They pick him for a reason. In fact, when I run my Warsmith, who is a counts-as Abaddon, Lysander is one of the few choices I know will be a worthy challenge. Is he the best? No. But I wouldn't say he's "out", either. Especially with people suggesting Asurmen and the Swarmlord.

Minsc
01-11-2011, 17:55
Lysander is as hard as nails

Indeed he is.
I'm just saying that there are more survivable contenders, which in addition are more killy than Lysander, and that (imo) rules him out, in a statistical match to the death.

Lysander is what, T4, W4, 2+/3++?
Draigo is T5, W4, 2+/3++, and Abaddon is T5, W4, 2+/4++ - and both are much more killy than he is.


and tends to be GW employees choice for character battles held in-store

This isn't exactly a merit to be proud of. :rolleyes:

Robot Unicorn
01-11-2011, 18:02
Lysander is what, T4, W4, 2+/3++?

Correct.


Draigo is T5, W4, 2+/3++

Draigo only has one additional point of toughness, which is nice, yeah, but not a game-changer; and he only has one additional attack. That's not "much more killy". That, and Lysander is rocking a strength ten thunder-hammer attack, which will notch down initiative after wounding, making the fight much more even.


Abaddon is T5, W4, 2+/4++ - and both are much more killy than he is.

Trust me, I run him - I know how killy he is. ;)


This isn't exactly a merit to be proud of. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure what you're implying.

Sekhmet
01-11-2011, 20:34
Correct.



Draigo only has one additional point of toughness, which is nice, yeah, but not a game-changer; and he only has one additional attack. That's not "much more killy". That, and Lysander is rocking a strength ten thunder-hammer attack, which will notch down initiative after wounding, making the fight much more even.



Trust me, I run him - I know how killy he is. ;)



I'm not sure what you're implying.

Say you have a contest for most survivable basic troop and marines are in the running. Then someone lists sisters, which are only one toughness lower. Doesn't that take sisters out?

Draigo can instant death at high initiative, even against t6.

Robot Unicorn
01-11-2011, 21:37
Say you have a contest for most survivable basic troop and marines are in the running. Then someone lists sisters, which are only one toughness lower. Doesn't that take sisters out?

That would be a valid point, if this thread was focused on who is the most survivable special character. While how survivable your hero is, is important, I'm not seeing one toughness and one attack as validation for Draigo being "better" than Lysander.


Draigo can instant death at high initiative, even against t6.

Against some of the other competitors listed here, that isn't nearly as impressive as you're making it sound.

Minsc
01-11-2011, 21:51
While how survivable your hero is, is important, I'm not seeing one toughness and one attack as validation for Draigo being "better" than Lysander.

Draigo has +1 WS, +1A, +1T and Strikes at normal I.
Lysander has his "thunderhammer" effect.

Draigo averages 0.74 wounds to Lysander each turn.
Lysander averages 0.41 wounds to Draigo each turn. (nearly half as much)

I'm not sure how much better Draigo has to be, before you admit that he is better.


I'm not sure what you're implying.

I was implying that the fact that GW-employee's consider Lysander good in deathmatches means diddly squat, since GW-employee's have a reputation to be clueless about the finer details (rules) of the game.

Robot Unicorn
01-11-2011, 22:52
Draigo has +1 WS, +1A, +1T and Strikes at normal I.
Lysander has his "thunderhammer" effect.

Draigo averages 0.74 wounds to Lysander each turn.
Lysander averages 0.41 wounds to Draigo each turn. (nearly half as much)

I'm not sure how much better Draigo has to be, before you admit that he is better.

I was implying that the fact that GW-employee's consider Lysander good in deathmatches means diddly squat, since GW-employee's have a reputation to be clueless about the finer details (rules) of the game.

Well, I concede the point.

That said, I don't appreciate your attitude, Minsc.

Rated_lexxx
02-11-2011, 00:30
I'm not so sure - he's still T6, and has psychic defence, so it shouldn't really be easy to ID him.

I think enough of the guys out there can cause instance death beyond needing double toughness.

But I think that is one of the major reason he is not considered. If am wrong someone tell me

MidnightKid333
02-11-2011, 01:36
I think it would be cool if Heresy held a competition to see which HQ models would do best against each other. What do you all think?

It would be similar to KoC's ultimate unit battle, but you submit an HQ choice instead.

Minsc
02-11-2011, 02:03
That said, I don't appreciate your attitude, Minsc.

I'm sorry if you feel that way, but that's your problem and not mine, since I'm not even trying to be rude.
(I haven't even insinuated that you're opinion is stupid - I did however try and show you why I thought you were wrong, and it seems i managed.)

Robot Unicorn
02-11-2011, 02:24
I'm sorry if you feel that way, but that's your problem and not mine, since I'm not even trying to be rude.
(I haven't even insinuated that you're opinion is stupid - I did however try and show you why I thought you were wrong, and it seems i managed.)

Well, there's a great way to respond. "It's your problem". :rolleyes:

Stay classy.

Minsc
02-11-2011, 02:43
Well, I can't help if you're easily offended, which you must be considering I didn't even try to offend you, and yet you still got offended for some reason.

Take a chillpill and don't take the internet so seriously. ;)
If you want to continue this argument , feel free to PM me instead.

Chem-Dog
02-11-2011, 02:55
So, anyone without eternal warrior is automatically out? Seems somewhat arbitrary.

Not really, it's just common sense that models immune to instadeath will survive better than those without when the big boys start waving the S8+ Armour save ignoring weapons about.


the Deceiver ofcourse.

As I understand it there's no "The Deciever" in the new Cron Codex, so he's not really a contender ;)



Keeper of Secrets (not sure what this demon has over a BT to be honest)


Higher Initiative.
Getting to hit before the thirster gives it a chance to die before it hits back, that's about it.

Robot Unicorn
02-11-2011, 02:58
Well, I can't help if you're easily offended, which you must be considering I didn't even try to offend you, and yet you still got offended for some reason.

Take a chillpill and don't take the internet so seriously. ;)
If you want to continue this argument , feel free to PM me instead.

Chill-pill? Hahaha. Oh boy. Don't worry about me, bro. My skin is far too thick to be upset about the textual-tone of some random guy on the internet.

I was just informing you, of how you were coming across.

Oakwolf
04-11-2011, 14:47
There are tons of characters that are great, but we're talking king of the hill here:

Draigo
Ghazkull
Abaddon
Bloodthirster (tooled up)

About the Keeper of Secrets, is it really a runner up vs the 4 above-mentionned? I've never played against those so i can't say. From what i know of my KoS, i'd think he would loose to them, but i could be underestimating.