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karse88
25-10-2011, 23:59
I have tried a couple of times, to destroy my good friend with my skaven army...
i recently came back to warhammer, so my tactics are a bit rusty but i still think something is missing!!

we have played 2 great games, i lost in point, eventhough i had 6-7 times as many (expensive) units on the table - due to bad judgement and silly mistakes.

i brought:
25 clan rats w. pwm
30 clan rats w. pwm
44 slaves w sling
40 storm vermin w. ratling - for eagles who want to eat my wlc
40 plague monks
first battle, cencer bearers, second battle 2 groups of gutter runners
wlc
lvl 4 mage
lvl 2 mage
first battle, doomwheel, second battle pcc

this was about what i wanted to use.. but its like im missing some harmony..
im about to cut the clan rats to 20, to get pwm , and then use BIG ASS slave units to hold his units while i blast them away
any surgestions???

winterking07
26-10-2011, 00:50
Vs High Elves, you probably don't want to make those Clanrat units smaller. As is, they're small enough to be easily beaten in combat by HE core units. 30 is probably the minimum size to aim for, in 5-wide units, and the more ranks you can give them, the better. Steadfast and attrition are your friends--even if he kills twice as many clanrats as you kill elves, you're going to be coming out ahead.

Other points:

-drown your opponent in a wave of rat-bodies. Don't let HE units gang up on you, and whenever possible, hit his units with two or more of yours. If you need to, throw some of your troops away to delay the HE for a turn, or to get a HE unit out of position. Remember, you can afford casualties. High Elves can't.

-alternately, hit the HE in waves. One of my old Skaven opponents didn't have much in his army except lots and lots and lots of rats, and would send them at me in, usually, two distinct waves. The first would die and be broken, and my weakened units would then either pursue or advance into the waiting arms of war machines, warp lightning, and steadfast clanrats.

-make the HE come to you--odds are, they don't have much in the way of shooting, and so they will have to advance into combat. Use that time to hit them with WLC blasts, or ratling-gun sniping, or magic. And prioritize targets: don't waste your ranged damage on spearmen or Seaguard; take out Swordmasters first, and then other small, elite units.

-Magic. The Dreaded Thirteenth spell is rightly named, especially vs. small units of elite HE infantry. Also, you have the possibility of unexpected strength in the magic phase, because of your warpstone tokens. The best time to use them is probably when the winds of magic roll is very small--fewer dice for your opponent to use in dispels.

m1acca1551
26-10-2011, 01:16
Winterking has it in one...

Use your adavantage in numbers, with your slaves loose the slings, run them naked or give them shields for that annoying 6++

hammer and anvil, elves of any type are one hit wonders, but if you let them dictate the battle then that one hit will knock you out completly. Throw your ependable units in to slow down, hold them and then gang up on exposed units. I often play against HE and i know what they can do if given free reign.

russellmoo
26-10-2011, 05:26
Ditch the pwm's- they are going to have a hard time landing on the smaller elite elf units- take warp fire throwers- they will win you the game if they don't blow up-

Drop the lvl 2 down to a lvl 1- use the points to buy more slaves-

As far as units go, take one unit of 25 clanrats- to bunker the grey seer and BSB-

By reducing down to one unit of 25 clanrats- you can now take 2 units of 50+ slaves-

I would use a warlock engineer with energy condenser to deal with the great eagles (or the doomwheel can just roll towards one and nuke it with lightning), and this will allow you to take a warpfire thrower with the stormvermin

Make sure you give your plague monks the plague banner-

Your grey seer should carry either skalm, and/or a ward save, a dispel scroll/or power scroll and some warpstone tokens (take all of your spells from Plague (Ruin is not going to help much against HE) you want Plague (it can be more dangerous than the dreaded 13th), Wither (a withered HE unit can't even stand up to slaves, and your stormvermin will now wound on 2's), Bless with filth (you might find yourself hitting on 6's anyway so make the most of it) Also, as far as casting goes- I like throwing a few dice at wither (he will always use whatever he has available to stop it) then going for the big spell-

High elves will generally win in CC (except for the turn when you use the plague banner) so everything but the plaguemonks should be ranked deep-

Personally, I like the combo of doomwheel+censor bearers to add punch, however, they are units which take a lot of practice to use effectively-

BlackPawl
27-10-2011, 09:53
A Level 4 (Greyseer) and one Level 1 (Warlock with Dispell Scroll) should be enough in 2k point games. Use the points for bigger units, against high elves you need them. Expect that you loose all combats, but you can win in a war of attrition.
Use bigger blocks of slaves, maybe 2 * 50 (better more).

I would use only one big unit of clanrats (with warpfire thrower) as two small units. Try to hold the high elves in one place with your slaves and then try to get the plague monks into one flank (or get one good shoot with the WFT).

You could also try to stay behind, use only clanrats and slaves and use WLC, a catapult and some weapon teams of your choice to whittle down the high elves before they reach you. Maybe a doomwheel at one flank.

karse88
01-11-2011, 17:36
THanks! its a very long time since i playes warhammer and this helps a LOT!... i see the point of almost all your suggestions!
first...
why lvl 1?.. its 35 points (12 slaves) and i can get either skitterleap, howling warpgale, scorch or death frenzy? :/ ... i guess i dont need more than lvl 1 i just thought some of the spells were bad ass :b
i like the pwm because its move and fire and he ALLWAYS shoots alot at my weapons teams :/?? and i roll hit alot :b so, 30 spearmen where 1/3 dies is okay? or?..
and how many do you hit when you try to hit as many as possible in a 5x6 block? :S we never agree on this :S!
the thought with the 25 clanrats was, 20 is to little if he gives me some fire, and i need a small unit for weapons team - maybe i should just cut it.. i will try to make a new list, thanks!

karse88
02-11-2011, 14:41
Argh! okay, we EXPANDED to 2500! if i should try your ideas i would bring:
38 clan rats, a unit that stays behind, carrying lvl 4 of plague and bsb, with warp fire thrower.
20 clan rats - i know its not much!, to bring a ratling gun and to redirect chargers
2 units of 60 naked slaves + musician, on either side of the unit with the grey seer
40 plaguemonks with full command and banner
2x 7-10 gutterunners w poisened attack
- i was thinking of 2 x 5 globadiers to throw into combat AND bring a PMW each? - 230 points for all??!??
2 wlc
1 PCC
1 greyseer w ToP
1 bsb - with something nice
1 engineer w doom rocket
1 lvl 1 engineer w warp condenser + dispel

the storm vermin didn't do anything last game, so i got rid of them, he is using lore of light, maybe i should bring some jezzails?.. argh i hate HE!! :b

goodz
02-11-2011, 19:11
Not enough rats at 2500 you want 200+ models!

TheOneHawk
03-11-2011, 05:06
Um, there's more than 230 models in that armylist.

karse88
03-11-2011, 19:01
he probably did not see the slaves.. hmm but what can i do, im not happy about this setup:/.. is it a bad idea with the globadiers?.. i still have 173, i think of one more plague claw, maybe bigger clanrat units.... :/

Francis
04-11-2011, 06:38
Drop the Globadiers and bring more gutter runners with slings (and add slings to those you have), whenever I play my brother (who plays Skaven, I play HEs) I have no problem with his gutter runners in CC due to ASF, but his slings kills me big time. I also think the 38 big Clanrat unit is too small. You should take the small one and add it to the larger giving you 58 clanrats in a big main unit. Also you could add a few rat swarms for redirecting purposes. The rattling gun probably won't do much at any rate, it is a bit risky and your increased number of gutter runners are better suited to taking out lone characters and small flanking units (like reavers and Eagle).

BlackPawl
04-11-2011, 10:24
Argh! okay, we EXPANDED to 2500! if i should try your ideas i would bring:
38 clan rats, a unit that stays behind, carrying lvl 4 of plague and bsb, with warp fire thrower.
20 clan rats - i know its not much!, to bring a ratling gun and to redirect chargers
2 units of 60 naked slaves + musician, on either side of the unit with the grey seer
40 plaguemonks with full command and banner
2x 7-10 gutterunners w poisened attack
- i was thinking of 2 x 5 globadiers to throw into combat AND bring a PMW each? - 230 points for all??!??
2 wlc
1 PCC
1 greyseer w ToP
1 bsb - with something nice
1 engineer w doom rocket
1 lvl 1 engineer w warp condenser + dispel

the storm vermin didn't do anything last game, so i got rid of them, he is using lore of light, maybe i should bring some jezzails?.. argh i hate HE!! :b

Sounds Ok for me. Except that the Warlock can not have two arcane items. Give the Dispel Scroll to the Grey Seer.

Against HE you can drop the globadiers. They are really good against cavalry, monster and monstrous infantry, but against T3 AS5+ troops they are not very good and too expensive.
Maybe try a Plague Furnace? The impact hits and the hits before combat can be really good against ASF HE.


My own list for our 2500 league is:

Grey seer on Bell (for protection against death spells, dwellers (S5 from the rat ogre) etc.) with 31 clanrats and WFT to stay behind the combat line.

Plague Priest with Plague Censor - can skitterleap behind enemy lines and kill enemy war machines or lone wizards

Warlock Lev 1, dispel scroll

Warlock with Doom rocket and pistol (if I can skitterleap him behind the enemy he can assault warmachines and with his pistol he has 2 attacks).

BSB with Storm banner

---

100 slaves with speers (try death frenzy and the poison spell on them :evilgrin:)

85 slaves

85 slaves

(I would not try this without the 18" ld bubble from the bell - but a hero goes in every unit at the start of the battle)

2 rat darts (5 giant rats) as redirectors and maybe against light missile troops / warmachine hunter

5 Gutter runners with slings and poison (I would take more but have not moere points left)

5 Plague censor bearer (just for a little punch, I do not expect much from them)

HPA with spikes

WLC

Doomwheel (I like it - it did not kill anything in the last few games, but it is a very funny and the enemy has to deal with it at any time).

---

We had to build our list before we knew which armies we would fight in the league, but I knew before that there is one empire and one vampire player (Ok, now I knew that there are 3 empire and two vampire players), so I want to have something against steam tanks (crack's call, WLC, Doomwheel) and etherals (that's why I have the spikes and the small unit of Plague Censor Bearer, WLC and Doomwheel are also good against them).
The rest is a war of attricion, hoping my units stay standfast long enough. ;)

karse88
06-11-2011, 20:30
Sounds Ok for me. Except that the Warlock can not have two arcane items. Give the Dispel Scroll to the Grey Seer.

Against HE you can drop the globadiers. They are really good against cavalry, monster and monstrous infantry, but against T3 AS5+ troops they are not very good and too expensive.
Maybe try a Plague Furnace? The impact hits and the hits before combat can be really good against ASF HE.


My own list for our 2500 league is:

Grey seer on Bell (for protection against death spells, dwellers (S5 from the rat ogre) etc.) with 31 clanrats and WFT to stay behind the combat line.

Plague Priest with Plague Censor - can skitterleap behind enemy lines and kill enemy war machines or lone wizards

Warlock Lev 1, dispel scroll

Warlock with Doom rocket and pistol (if I can skitterleap him behind the enemy he can assault warmachines and with his pistol he has 2 attacks).

BSB with Storm banner

---

100 slaves with speers (try death frenzy and the poison spell on them :evilgrin:)

85 slaves

85 slaves

(I would not try this without the 18" ld bubble from the bell - but a hero goes in every unit at the start of the battle)

2 rat darts (5 giant rats) as redirectors and maybe against light missile troops / warmachine hunter

5 Gutter runners with slings and poison (I would take more but have not moere points left)

5 Plague censor bearer (just for a little punch, I do not expect much from them)

HPA with spikes

WLC

Doomwheel (I like it - it did not kill anything in the last few games, but it is a very funny and the enemy has to deal with it at any time).

---

We had to build our list before we knew which armies we would fight in the league, but I knew before that there is one empire and one vampire player (Ok, now I knew that there are 3 empire and two vampire players), so I want to have something against steam tanks (crack's call, WLC, Doomwheel) and etherals (that's why I have the spikes and the small unit of Plague Censor Bearer, WLC and Doomwheel are also good against them).
The rest is a war of attricion, hoping my units stay standfast long enough. ;)

damn! crazy list bro! :D .. i dont like Giant rats, but mostly because of the figures - and the "you have to play these units very well" - im more into shooting and units where i can make mistakes, it has been a while since i played warhammer...
i like the doomwheel, but i would prefer a PCC, cut censors and bring more gutter runners...
damn your bold! plague priest with skitterleap ! :D i need to try some of this!! thanks! :)

BlackPawl
07-11-2011, 08:52
Thanks. First fight was a major win (only a steam tank survived), now I have to see how I will stand against the next empire army (full cavalry).

If you do not like giant rats you can also try 20 slaves as redirectors and for deployment. Most armies will have 5-8 drops, so if you can drop 3 expendable and cheap units on board your enemy will have half of his army on the table. Now you can deploy your units after his ones.

But 20 slaves are slower (M5), have outside of the generals ld bubble only ld5 and are a little more expensive as the rats. But of course they have ranks and more bodies.

A PCC is great, but only against normal infantry / cavalry (at best T3). But I want a unit which could hurt a steam tank, a hydra or a black coach, so the steam tank was my first choice for this task. It is a funny unit to play and even if he did not kill anything your enemy will have to deal with him.

Yap, the cencor bearer were not my first choice. I have only included them as a reserve against some etherals or calvalry. I do not expect much from them.

A Plague priest behind the enemy front line is really good. Even if he only get the base spell you can skitterleap him behind the enemy (at best near a cavalry unit) and use his breath spell (one time I could skitterleap a Plague priest between 5 DE units with Cloud of Corruption - hell this was fun!! :evilgrin:).
If he survive till next turn he can charge something important and against small units he can win a combat alone - but do not charge him into a big unit with many ranks / banners etc.
But try to let him be cheap, a plague censor, the one use 4++ ward and maybe a dispell scroll (to use before his suicide mission) are enough.

karse88
07-11-2011, 20:20
Thanks. First fight was a major win (only a steam tank survived), now I have to see how I will stand against the next empire army (full cavalry).

If you do not like giant rats you can also try 20 slaves as redirectors and for deployment. Most armies will have 5-8 drops, so if you can drop 3 expendable and cheap units on board your enemy will have half of his army on the table. Now you can deploy your units after his ones.

But 20 slaves are slower (M5), have outside of the generals ld bubble only ld5 and are a little more expensive as the rats. But of course they have ranks and more bodies.

A PCC is great, but only against normal infantry / cavalry (at best T3). But I want a unit which could hurt a steam tank, a hydra or a black coach, so the steam tank was my first choice for this task. It is a funny unit to play and even if he did not kill anything your enemy will have to deal with him.

Yap, the cencor bearer were not my first choice. I have only included them as a reserve against some etherals or calvalry. I do not expect much from them.

A Plague priest behind the enemy front line is really good. Even if he only get the base spell you can skitterleap him behind the enemy (at best near a cavalry unit) and use his breath spell (one time I could skitterleap a Plague priest between 5 DE units with Cloud of Corruption - hell this was fun!! :evilgrin:).
If he survive till next turn he can charge something important and against small units he can win a combat alone - but do not charge him into a big unit with many ranks / banners etc.
But try to let him be cheap, a plague censor, the one use 4++ ward and maybe a dispell scroll (to use before his suicide mission) are enough.

haha ofcourse the steamtank survived! argh i hate that machine! really good in all battles! i throw a cracks call in its face last time, but he dispels and destroys my spell - great -.-
i see what you mean, he will get the +1 to begin, but i get the benefit of deploying clever... hmm
im going a whole other direction, i will upload my loony plan soon - skaven doesn't contain logic, so i went a whole other direction, with some of your ideas :)

BlackPawl
08-11-2011, 08:01
haha ofcourse the steamtank survived! argh i hate that machine! really good in all battles! i throw a cracks call in its face last time, but he dispels and destroys my spell - great -.-
i see what you mean, he will get the +1 to begin, but i get the benefit of deploying clever... hmm
im going a whole other direction, i will upload my loony plan soon - skaven doesn't contain logic, so i went a whole other direction, with some of your ideas :)


Of course you can try many other builds, the skaven book has many good choices (not as vampire counts which have almost the same build now (but gain another book soon)).

I have tried 10 units of 20 clanrats each (with 8 WFT, 2 ratling guns), Iket Claw and 4 Warlocks (Lev 1) with many warptokens to span warplightnings. Not many WFT-teams survived, but 4 were enough to kill all enemy footsoldiers (and a few of my own too).

You can also go "elite" with Ratogres and plague monks. My main enemy is an empire player, and with this build he did not knew what to do with his mortars because most of my army was T4.

One of my armies I like the most is my "Spartacus-Army". Many, many (I mean really many) units of slaves, and one ord two good combat unit with a warlord (but with no HPA, cannon or any "big" investment). Empire cannons were useless and even with three mortars he could not kill all slaves.

karse88
12-11-2011, 13:46
Of course you can try many other builds, the skaven book has many good choices (not as vampire counts which have almost the same build now (but gain another book soon)).

I have tried 10 units of 20 clanrats each (with 8 WFT, 2 ratling guns), Iket Claw and 4 Warlocks (Lev 1) with many warptokens to span warplightnings. Not many WFT-teams survived, but 4 were enough to kill all enemy footsoldiers (and a few of my own too).

You can also go "elite" with Ratogres and plague monks. My main enemy is an empire player, and with this build he did not knew what to do with his mortars because most of my army was T4.

One of my armies I like the most is my "Spartacus-Army". Many, many (I mean really many) units of slaves, and one ord two good combat unit with a warlord (but with no HPA, cannon or any "big" investment). Empire cannons were useless and even with three mortars he could not kill all slaves.

damn! 8 wft! holy biib!, this is sooo expensive to pull off! but hey, if you win the game haha... this makes me thinking.. if i have MANY weapon teams, he will have a problem taking them all out... he dont need to take out the clanrats to get points for the weapon teams, but he cant take out all .. hmm i think i will use this list next time, and then use a LOT of weapon teams next time:
35 clan rats w shields, fc and WFT - to push screaming bell
25 clanrats w shields and ratling gun for his eagles
24 clanrats w shields and ratling gun for his eagles
80 naked slaves with musician
79 naked slaves with musician
2 x 8 gutter runners w poison slings
6 jezzails - i did not know what to use 120 points on :S
2 warplightning
2 plague claw
grey seer - on the bell ofcourse, with warpscroll, skalm and a warpstone
engineer with doomrocket
bsb with talisman 4+ ward + shield - +4 +3 in cc - i think this works?
and engineer lvl 1 with warp-condenser+ scroll

then i will see how this works :)

Shadeseraph
12-11-2011, 16:24
Skaven having problmes with high elves? that's a first as far as I know. Skavens are pretty much the worst match up ever for HE. Just make some numbers. 10 Sword Masters (theoretically the best anti-horde HE have) lose against the same amount of points in skavenslaves (75, 60 with spear. Horde 'em) straight up. Not in combat resolution, mind you, but in that as long as you have your general and BSB close by, the slaves won't run away, and the average number of points SM loses each round is far bigger than the average number of points the slaves lose. And if they run, they are assured to do a number on the SM, as they are dealing a lot of S3 auto-hits on a T3, AS 5+ troop with 10 bodies.

And that's without entering the real elf-killers: plague censers and skaven magic. A Plague spell can destroy any decently sized unit. Dreaded 13th kills elf characters and elite units like flies. And any elf in the path of a plague furnace is as good as dead. Breath Weapon which targets the lowest elven defense? check. Impact hits that strike before ASF? check. Lot's of T checks just for being close? check.

A big bell is pretty much mandatory. Improves line of sight, increases the general's LD bubble, and gives a great defense to the seer. Also, at least in my experience, many of it's effects are awesome for hordes.

If you really feel like you need to take care of the eagles or the RBTs, a bunch of gutter runners are useful, although unnecessary.

And, finally, HPAs and doomwheels can take care of your flanks. Of course, slaves can, too.

BlackPawl
13-11-2011, 08:04
35 clan rats w shields, fc and WFT - to push screaming bell
25 clanrats w shields and ratling gun for his eagles
24 clanrats w shields and ratling gun for his eagles
80 naked slaves with musician
79 naked slaves with musician
2 x 8 gutter runners w poison slings
6 jezzails - i did not know what to use 120 points on :S
2 warplightning
2 plague claw
grey seer - on the bell ofcourse, with warpscroll, skalm and a warpstone
engineer with doomrocket
bsb with talisman 4+ ward + shield - +4 +3 in cc - i think this works?
and engineer lvl 1 with warp-condenser+ scroll

then i will see how this works :)


It's a solid list. But you can't give your warlock two arcane items (condensor & scroll). Maybe drop the jezzails, upgrade the second warlock and give him the scroll and both one or two warptokens. Give you more options in the magic phase.

The warpscroll is one of the least used item in the skaven book. Against a HE player with many eagles it could be good.

If your opponent do not use the death lore you can also drop the 4+ ward onm the BSB and put him in the second rank in the bell unit (5 wide, with full command in the first and second rank you can deploy him in the second rank too). Then you can use a good banner on him (under empire ?).

Tell us how this list works ...

karse88
13-11-2011, 14:59
thanks man! i didnt see this!... maybe cut down the clanrats units a bit to make it work - they are only there for ratling guns... high elf can bring more rare choices.. how does it work this time.. he wants to bring 4 eagles but we never found out if this is really possible ..
and how does it work with the bell, i have to read this.. i use to put it 5 rat wide + 3 from bell? .. can you make it 2 wide + 3 from bell and then just put the bsb in second rank? :O??! were can i read about this! haha.. damn, i will upload results, we could not play today due to a family dinner, but it will be soon! :)
thanks for good comments!

BlackPawl
13-11-2011, 17:37
HE can bring four eagles to the table, that's right. But you can use Howling Warpgale for this. It is not the best spell in the skaven lores, but against someone with many flying units it can be devasting. Maybe a reason more to upgrade the second warlock to lev 1.

My advice: read the skaven book more than once (many, many times).
Especially the special rules, because we have many of them. And do not forget the FAQ - the bell get some corrections in the FAQ (it got 8 pages of FAQ, more than any other book)!

You can use it five wide: the bell and on each side one model. First rank would be banner and musician, second rank BSB and champion. One dirty trick is to do reformation so that you have your back to the front - so he can not charge your grey seer on the bell. You loose SiN, he get's +2 for charge in the back, you can not parry and you can only fight with one rank - but who cares, to get at the grey seer he has to kill nearly all skaven clanrats in the unit and your unit can not be broken in combat. And your grey seer is on a bell so he can see and cast in all directions.

Lord Solar Plexus
13-11-2011, 19:12
thanks man! i didnt see this!... maybe cut down the clanrats units a bit to make it work - they are only there for ratling guns...

I'm not sure this is the right concept. If they are only there for the weapon team, you are essentially fielding each of these teams for what, 170 points or so?

It can work if you spam them as BlackPawl did - I'm his regular Empire opponent, and that list was, uh, unexpected. If you only take a few weapon teams, I think it is better to make the parent unit large enough to be worth taking as well.

karse88
14-11-2011, 08:54
woooow i love you guys for this! haha! I would NEVER have turned my screaming bell xD!
your probably right black pawl, it has been a while since i read the army books FAQ :/ i will do this right now :)
Lord Solar Plexus, great of you to join :) ... but i cant see what to use the clan rats for :/? .. i field them to bring protection against his eagles, they will stay behind, maybe aid a defensive counter attack, redirect or simply do nothing.. i can make them larger, but what should i cut then? :/ i like this list.. a PCC maybe? :/
man im so excited, the help from you guys made the list a lot better! :)

spriten
14-11-2011, 14:33
GW has a page dedicated to FAQ and errata, very nifty if you're unsure about some rules :)
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3000006&multiPageMode=true&start=2

Page 89 Choosing an Army
Add Elite Army
The High Elves are few in numbers, but their armies are
trained and equipped to standards so high that they are the
envy of all other races. To represent this, an army may include
up to 6 of each Special choice (up to 12 in a Grand Army) and
up to 4 of each Rare choice (up to 8 in a grand army).

The skaven FAQ adresses alot of issues with the orignal rules for the bell.

Personally I'd drop a lot of clanrats and the ratling guns. IMO I find them not worth their points. Of all the weapon teams, I only like the PWM and WFT.

High elves has been one of my main opponents. They can be challenging, but I've still not lost against them.
WLCs, Doomwheels, Warp lightning and poison slings tend to take care of those pesky eagles.
Your opponent can't dispel your shooting, and if you have enough warmachines and gutter runners, the eagles shouldn't be a problem.

Book of Hoeth or Teclis on the other hand, that's where the fun begins :)

karse88
20-01-2012, 16:01
okaay, i just recently tried turning the screaming bell! I just switched opponent, instead of HE i played against VC!
First! i ****ed up! i put my screaming bell in a unit of 35 clanrats, FC + shields..
before i was hit in the rear - which seemed to be the only solution at the time, i send 51 slaves (without shields because im a *****) to hold 5 blood knights -.-
after 2 turns (4 CC rounds), they were gone and he was at my bell - the reason i turned it! it didn't work at all! my clan rats didn't get their parry save because he charged in the rear and there wasn't NEARLY enough! he cut them down in 1 turn (2 CC rounds).. I think you need NORMAL units in the rear to make it work x)!