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Rosstifer
26-10-2011, 01:28
So, ripping off the Woodies thread, and with Harry and ihavetoomuchmini's *hinting* Warriors are after Vampire Counts and Empire, what would you like too see in the next incarnation of the coolest army(:D) in Warhammer?

NOTE - PLEASE let's stay away from wishing for a full return of Hordes of Chaos, it'd be cool, but it won't happen and it's been done to death, so don't bring it up!

Models -
Plastic Chosen
Plastic Forsaken
Plastic Hellcannon
Plastic Warshrine/Chariot Kit

Rules - Something to stop the boring crutch that is the Chosenstar. It doesn't take any skill, and it's no fun to play against.

MoN reworked.
MoS reworked.
MoK adding to dispel if the army has no Wizards.

Chaos Lords 50pts cheaper and Hatred base?

Manticore much cheaper, maybe Regen?

Maybe GW 2pts each for Marauders?

Horsemen 10pts each?

Chaos Knights 35pts each?

Shaggoth, Giant, Spawn, Ogres, Dragon Ogres, Forsaken reworked.

Lores Reworked.

More "Chaosy" options in general.

Some form of Undivided brought back.

I'm lazy, over to you guys.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
26-10-2011, 01:43
I'd go with your suggestions, all very reasonable. I'd add that I'd like to see Chosen Knights, and for the god specific mounts be made available to them. And for a new Core choice of Chaos Cultists to be added, with the unmarked ones having some kind of reasonable range attack, and the marks affecting their wargear to represent which god they worship.

Enigmatik1
26-10-2011, 02:14
How could you leave off Forsaken re-worked? Why bother with gorgeous new models if they're still going to blow chunks?

I still look at my Ushabti models and feel sad. I'd hate for Forsaken to stay terrible but get awesome models.

Liber
26-10-2011, 02:15
I wish that the Chaos Warrior is either nerfed slightly (I5 is a bit much imo), or get a slight points increase.

Their stat line is superior to most any other armies special troop types, and they count as core...and the points cost for them is a bit too low.


Other than that i wish that they get some new models for dragon ogres, and finally get a model for forsaken...lastly i'd say that they really could use a ranged unit that is NOT the hellcannon to make things a bit more interesting.

Daemonia
26-10-2011, 02:16
Mark of Khorne giving some kind of protection against magic. With all the crazy magic that these kids today are throwing about just gets me a tad sad that the Blood God's finest don't have some kind of extra defence against girly Elves and their spellflinging. Back in the day we got an extra Dispel dice so something like that again would be great.

Rosstifer
26-10-2011, 02:32
How could you leave off Forsaken re-worked? Why bother with gorgeous new models if they're still going to blow chunks?

I still look at my Ushabti models and feel sad. I'd hate for Forsaken to stay terrible but get awesome models.

Whoops, forgot them. I think S5, 2 Wounds, Skirmishers.

blood_beast
26-10-2011, 04:19
Definitely need a dispel dice per mark of Khorne. Perhaps as has already been suggested it could be available only to mono-Khorne armies. This idea could be expanded to mono-only bonuses for each of the gods.

Hordes/old-school chaos style armies where we can take everything would be amazing but I guess we have the Tamurkhan list now so it's not a big deal.

Chaos dwarfs as special would be awesome though, maybe warriors as special and bull centaurs as rare?

We definitely need a bunch of new models to replace some of the disgusting, outdated cr#p we are still stuck with. New dragon ogres, new chaos ogres, new chaos trolls, and a warshrine/chariot kit. All plastic. That would be awesome. Especially the chaos ogres and trolls coz they've sucked since the day the were released. And come on GW, give me some new Dragon Ogres, the "current" models are close to 20 years old.

TheOneHawk
26-10-2011, 04:20
My main wish is for the marks to be balanced. Please. I'm on my knees here, GW.

I seem to be in the minority, but I -like- that Chaos Warriors have awesome core. If Skavenslaves have I4, how is I5 OTT? They're supposed to be better than almost all the other core in the game, and cost more. Guess what, they are and they do. They're far from overpowered. Some of the marks, on the other hand...

ivan55599
26-10-2011, 04:31
Spawn, they say.

Echunia
26-10-2011, 04:53
Skirmishers! Maybe like the forsaken, but I'd rather see some kind of harpy unit. A cultist option would be gold tbh.
I'd like to see WoC's massive unit (we all know it's coming) to be the shaggoth as their supposed to be extremely massive.

RandomSpecific
26-10-2011, 05:30
yeah shaggoth buffed up would be cool, regen would be good, as well as marks and prehaps a rescale of the model (larger)

forsaken as said, the idea is cool and skirmish, chaos armour and a slightly better stat line would do it. how bout a kinda feel no pain save on first wounds taken as long as the str of the attack was not greater than their toughness

warriors down to 1 point...what?;)

bringing back the dispell dice for units with Mark of Khorne would be great. As well as perma Frenzy as opposed to losing it after one loss. it seems odd that beserkers would care that all around them are dying when thats the whole point, after all khorne cares not from where the blood flows etc.

id like some more....involved changes to marks. the mark should imo provide better gifts the further along the path you are. a lords mark should give him extra benefits over maruaders for example.

mok = perma frenzy, strength and dispell dice are all possible examples
mot = the ward buff for characters and chosen, mayb the old, makes character a wizard etc
mos = true ITP, inititive boosts, ws boosts, something something
mon = toughness boosts, the ws reduction currently used, regen for characters.

obviously the prices would increase the more you got out of it. or something like that.

its hard not to want basically a ton of stuff from Hordes, which was a cool book.

Princes need a massive overhaul, you should be able to make a combat monster, if not one of the strongest single characters in the game from a daemon prince. points obviously to suit. and take items to boot, probably one of the stupidest decisions ever taken.

as we lost hordes, the ability to make a "pure" marauder list would be cool, kind of like orcs n goblins etc. marauder heroes and shamen along with chariots etc, to give some variety and theme.

and the return of Crom.

im looking forward to the mammouth thou if thats turns out to be true, thatll be bad ass.

the complaining about the chosenstar is perhaps over done. its pretty fluffy having a reasonably small unit of blessed chosen butchering their way through things. that combo costs around 800 points and one gateway or similar spell and your looking at tears, i know theyll mess with the setup and itll probably not be anything like it is now, but id like to keep the idea and style.

but ill keep our book as much as the problems annoy me, its still capable and others seem to be much more needy of the attention.

RanaldLoec
26-10-2011, 07:10
Shaggoths to toughness 6 they die too easily.

MoS is weak compared to the other choicest
MoT to loose the ward bonus
MoN ?
MoK perfect

Chosen represent those blessed with a stable mutation.
So they get elite stats say ld9 initiative 6 an option similar to ogre maneaters to pick abilities rather than stat increases so one or two options from stubborn, immune to psychology, strider, devastating charge, etc etc.

Forsaken getting a random stat increase to represent the random nature of chaos blessings and mutations.

A plastic add on kit to convert the current ogre sprues.

Plastic dragon ogres I like the current models I just can't face assembling and pinning another 8 models.

A the option to take a new skirmisher marauder unit with thrown weapons or some kind of tracker or scout style unit to spice up the core choices.

A great big massive rare choice spawn beasty with a howdah crew and option mount lords on it to crush the southerners under.

Evil Hypnotist
26-10-2011, 07:43
MoN to give immunity to poisoned attacks.

Balance the difference between Trolls and Ogres, there is just no point taking Ogres atm

The return of Egrimm van Horstmann and Baudros, although that is wishful thinking!

Allow upgrading of Chaos Spawn to Great Spawn, like in SOM, although you will lose Scyla if this happens

Much better looking Marauder models, with a great weapon option on the frame!

EDIT: How can I forget the Daemon Prince, probably the biggest waste of points in the AB atm. Either lose it or make it more survivable, some kind of scaly skin save would be something!

Harwammer
26-10-2011, 07:58
marauders forced to take light armour for +1 point.

Warriors back down in points and to 1 attack basic (2a was a patch they needed for 7th).

Some dp only combat gifts

Change gateway to auto wounds on s11/12

Cheaper trolls

Bring back mutant monstrosity giant (bellyflop attack and armour save)

T6 shaggoth

Stubborn warshines

Bring back old spawn marks (magical flames breath weapon for tz, 3d6 move for sl. Put them back to d6+1 hits instead of attacks)

Jack of Blades
26-10-2011, 08:15
I want the book to be more Chaosy; Chaos sorcerers are described as using the raw magic of Chaos but you can't tell this in game, there's nothing special about their casting. The marks are poorly balanced and offer no increasing rewards - a lord of Nurgle shouldn't/can't still have the same gift that a mere marauder does. I'd also like just something that makes an Undivided army worth using but that's a side-wish. I want stuff that makes the army more exciting beyond unit-specific rules to make the army as a whole come alive.

Other than that I also agree with all good, reasonable suggestions such as the majority of those which have already been put forth in this thread.

ivan55599
26-10-2011, 08:36
Edit: forgot; marauder archers as special (shortbowmen). How do you think that dismounted marauders can hunt, javelins and throwing axes?

Sh4d0w
26-10-2011, 08:55
Hehe chaos

sulla
26-10-2011, 09:29
Wishlist eh?

Ok, here goes;

Eye of the gods far less powerful, but units/characters get to roll on it far more often... beating units, double ones on Ld tests, double 6s on Ld tests, miscasts etc.

Spawn in units of 1-5, 3d6 mv, same cost. Upgrades should be random, not mark based... perhaps the upgrade should change every turn?

Cost of high strength weapons should increase for all rank and file.

Marks should be pts/model.

Chosen knights (1-5) as rares mounted on juggers/boobworms/discs/plaguebeasts/daemonic steeds.

Hellcannons as warmachines rather than M&H. t10, 5 wounds stone thrower +1strength, causes panic per unit hit. Combat stats of a daemon prince, unbreakable.

Shaggoth t6, 7 wounds, never benefit from eye of the gods.

War shrine down a point of toughness and ward save, gains impact hits, becomes a chariot.

Drop forsaken altogether, add posessed warriors instead. Perhaps bloodletter posessed get hellblades and MR, plaguebearer posessed get +1t and poison, daemonetteposessed get +1 mv and ASF, Tzeentch posessed get flaming attacks and regen? or something similar. Would be a good way to get more themed lists.

General price changes, magic item and gift rationalisation and rebalancing.

Personally, I really liked the restrictive 5th edition warband system, where a character from any of the 3 chaos factions could lead a warband of similar types. It would probably be too complex for today's warhammer, but I really liked that style of balancing for allowing diverse chaos armies without too much freedom for list building.

RanaldLoec
26-10-2011, 10:12
Edit: forgot; marauder archers as special (shortbowmen). How do you think that dismounted marauders can hunt, javelins and throwing axes?

We managed centuries with pointy sticks before one hairy genius used his noggin to invent the bow.

Any way no self respecting northerner would be seen dead with a bow.

Now an axe firing bow is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Von Wibble
26-10-2011, 10:56
Mark of Khorne giving some kind of protection against magic. With all the crazy magic that these kids today are throwing about just gets me a tad sad that the Blood God's finest don't have some kind of extra defence against girly Elves and their spellflinging. Back in the day we got an extra Dispel dice so something like that again would be great.

Perfectly fine as long as this bonus grants no help if you have any magic yourself. Something like allowing Khornate characters to dispel in the same way as wizards, with +2 for heroes and +4 for lords. Throw ni MR for teh mark of khorne in general (at next to no extra cost since I accept currently its not very good!)

In general

Chaos warriors reduced to I4, no change in cost.

Marauders - mark of khorne increased in cost. Models come with light armour (but add this to their cost).

Shaggoth considerably buffed in ability (something like S7, T7, W7, A7) and gives boosts to dragon ogres within 12" (eg frenzy?). Cost nuchanged - its ridiculously expensive atm.

Alternatively (more boring though) reduce its cost to 200ish

Giant reduced in cost, as are ogres, manticore mounts.

Spawn in units of 1-3. If spawn get doubles for movement roll on eye of the gods.

Warshrines don't grant eye of the gods and work more like a cauldron of blood instead. The fact they are quite good tanks in combat and require no character makes them superior in one regard to the caudron therefore the buffs would be slightly less potent to compensate (not sure of specifics yet). This combined with change in ruling to favour of the gods should remove chosenstar as a factor, though chosen can still get pretty nasty with one of these in the army.

One former thread suggested forsaken get mutant regneration (5+). I like this suggestion.

Chaos lord decreased in price (170 seems about right).

Daemon prince allowed access to regular magic items as well as gifts. Slight reduction in cost.

Magic items changed considerably - favour of the gods allows a single reroll of effect rather than +/- 1, puppet adjusts roll on miscast table by 1 not D3 but reduced in cost, father of blades inflicts hits for missed attacks (not just 1 to hit- this item is far too cool in concept not to stay!), return of 4+ ward that turns you into spawn for fleeing. Magic item list obviously reduced in size in general, but daemonic gifts go a long way to compensating for this.

Slaanesh magic reliance on psychology reduced so it isn't totally useless vs some armies. Power of some spells considerably nerfed (titillating delusions in particular) but lore generally buffed.

Make Tzeentch magic les about inflicting random S hits and more subtle and tactical.

Add some Slaanesh special characters - they seem to get about half the amount the other gods get!

Eye of the gods is a good idea but for characters it should be easier to get rewards. Sorcerors currently get nothing from it for example. There should also be a penalty incurred for not fighting in character for your god (eg Khorne lord refusing to charge a wizard).

Have some kind of random battlefield changing effect occur at the start of each turn (D66 roll) - return of things like cosmic duel, eternal battle, have scenary mutate into monsters. Basically make it chaotic!

Just a few things there!

Daniel36
26-10-2011, 10:56
I would like to see less bulky Marauders, and I would like to see Marauder archers.

"But Chaos Warriors are all about close combat" - Yeah but why? Why wouldn't they use archery? What manner of nonsense is that? Just make them worse archers than Elves, but give them good close combat capabilities so that they can still put up a fight in CC.

That, and I really, REALLY wish they would just put Daemons and Warriors back together, or at least in some kind of symbiotic relationship, so that you can use more "allies" from the Daemon book and there are some other rules associated with it.

sometimesafish
26-10-2011, 11:01
I'd go with your suggestions, all very reasonable. I'd add that I'd like to see Chosen Knights, and for the god specific mounts be made available to them. And for a new Core choice of Chaos Cultists to be added, with the unmarked ones having some kind of reasonable range attack, and the marks affecting their wargear to represent which god they worship.

I like the idea of having chaos cultists. I think they should be some sort of scouts with weak ranged weapons. I don't think they should give the chaos army to much shooting, thats not what chaos is about But some sort of ranged option would surelly allow for more tactical options.

Fuzzymoldyork
26-10-2011, 13:09
I have to agree with a lot of people on this list about what needs to be changed.

But the one thing that I want to see back are some of the special characters from 5th:

Valnir the Reaper
Count Mordreck (sp?) the Damned, easily the coolest chaos character in the game, so much personality and tragedy in one back story
Azazel (sp?)
Arbaal

Also, for the love of all that is good and holy please buff the Daemon Prince. Why would you release such a beautiful model and have it suck in one of the two systems its for?

Von Wibble
26-10-2011, 13:35
I have to agree with a lot of people on this list about what needs to be changed.

But the one thing that I want to see back are some of the special characters from 5th:

Valnir the Reaper
Count Mordreck (sp?) the Damned, easily the coolest chaos character in the game, so much personality and tragedy in one back story
Azazel (sp?)
Arbaal

Also, for the love of all that is good and holy please buff the Daemon Prince. Why would you release such a beautiful model and have it suck in one of the two systems its for?

Definately agree on all of those special characters. Aekold Helbrass and Dechala the Denied One also (Aekold is certainly an interesting one who should resurrect models from units within a certain distance, friend or foe, whilst the more slaaneshi characters the better).

Harwammer
26-10-2011, 13:49
Slaanesh magic reliance on psychology reduced so it isn't totally useless vs some armies. Power of some spells considerably nerfed (titillating delusions in particular) but lore generally buffed. It's not too bad currently with access to Third eye, but if third eye changes then so will Lore of Slaanesh need to.


Eye of the gods is a good idea but for characters it should be easier to get rewards. Sorcerors currently get nothing from it for example.

Well, sorcerors can zap large targets from range to get rolls (and at the end of the day they are still chaos warriors so might be able to sucker the occasional weak character), though I guess you're right that there aren't many results that are particularly useful for sorcerors.

In the current 'no rolls for killing champions' format it is rare to get a single EoTG roll from a challenge in a game.

Plexi
26-10-2011, 14:53
I'd like to see a few things and I'd be happy;

1- Marks becoming a per model upgrade as opposed to the per unit upgrade they are now.

2- Forced adherence to the 'one re-roll' rule.

3- Points adjustments to encourage special and rare usage.

Really WoC doesn't even need a book for that, could have been fixed with a simple FAQ. But we know that is never going to happen.

colonel kane trine
26-10-2011, 14:54
Id want to see

Marks being more useful
Eotg changing
Old characters brought back
A 0-1 choice or something similar with a beasts or demon unit as special

AlphariusOmegon20
26-10-2011, 15:27
So, ripping off the Woodies thread, and with Harry and ihavetoomuchmini's *hinting* Warriors are after Vampire Counts and Empire, what would you like too see in the next incarnation of the coolest army(:D) in Warhammer?

NOTE - PLEASE let's stay away from wishing for a full return of Hordes of Chaos, it'd be cool, but it won't happen and it's been done to death, so don't bring it up!

Models -
Plastic Chosen
Plastic Forsaken
Plastic Hellcannon
Plastic Warshrine/Chariot Kit

Rules - Something to stop the boring crutch that is the Chosenstar. It doesn't take any skill, and it's no fun to play against.

MoN reworked.
MoS reworked.
MoK adding to dispel if the army has no Wizards.

Chaos Lords 50pts cheaper and Hatred base?

Manticore much cheaper, maybe Regen?

Maybe GW 2pts each for Marauders?

Horsemen 10pts each?

Chaos Knights 35pts each?

Shaggoth, Giant, Spawn, Ogres, Dragon Ogres, Forsaken reworked.

Lores Reworked.

More "Chaosy" options in general.

Some form of Undivided brought back.

I'm lazy, over to you guys.


Shaggoths to toughness 6 they die too easily.

MoS is weak compared to the other choicest
MoT to loose the ward bonus
MoN ?
MoK perfect

Chosen represent those blessed with a stable mutation.
So they get elite stats say ld9 initiative 6 an option similar to ogre maneaters to pick abilities rather than stat increases so one or two options from stubborn, immune to psychology, strider, devastating charge, etc etc.

Forsaken getting a random stat increase to represent the random nature of chaos blessings and mutations.

A plastic add on kit to convert the current ogre sprues.

Plastic dragon ogres I like the current models I just can't face assembling and pinning another 8 models.

A the option to take a new skirmisher marauder unit with thrown weapons or some kind of tracker or scout style unit to spice up the core choices.

A great big massive rare choice spawn beasty with a howdah crew and option mount lords on it to crush the southerners under.

I disagree that MoS is useless or needs to be changed. Right now it's a more situational mark and that's personally fine with me.

MoS is highly useful against Fear causing armies, such as Ogres, VC, and TK. Taking away a big part of those armies M.O. hurts them far more than any punch does.

Also MoS marauder Horseman as bait units still works wonders, even in 8th.

No, I disagree that MoS needs to change or is weak.

Jack of Blades
26-10-2011, 15:57
I disagree that MoS is useless or needs to be changed. Right now it's a more situational mark and that's personally fine with me.

MoS is highly useful against Fear causing armies, such as Ogres, VC, and TK. Taking away a big part of those armies M.O. hurts them far more than any punch does.

Also MoS marauder Horseman as bait units still works wonders, even in 8th.

No, I disagree that MoS needs to change or is weak.

It's still a badly designed mark. And only having it on one unit (marauder horsemen) is bad design too. It would've been ok if it was the only mark available - just like anything else that can't be compared to anything since it's the only thing of its kind - but it's not. It's got three marks to compete with. That is why it is not a situational mark but a badly designed mark. It's not that useful what with BSB re-rolls and Will of Chaos anyway, which reminds me that the mark of Khorne is simply the mark of Slaanesh+1.

I had to comment on this because, no real personal offense intended, views that accept bad design annoy me :)

ooglatjama
26-10-2011, 16:16
I think the bonuses on marks would be a good idea. Maybe if your general takes a mark there is a bonus, if every markable unit takes one mark there is another. For example

MoK:
Unit - Frenzy
General - Cannot lose frenzy
Army- Cannot lose frenzy + generates a dispell dice/ +1 to dispell for each MoK unit

MoS:
Unit - ITP
General- ITP + Stubborn with a character
Army- All of the above + ASF

MoN:
Unit - -1 WS in combat, -1 to hit with ranged
General- -1 to all enemy LD checks
Army- 5+ Regen

MoT:
Unit- +1 to ward saves
General- Wizards may choose one spell rather than rolling all the dice
Army- +1 to cast for each MoT Unit

lbecks
26-10-2011, 16:51
New warrior kit with lots of options for the different chaos god themes.

BigbyWolf
26-10-2011, 17:02
A step back from the Marauder-obsessed culture they currently have and a return to the old days of corrupted cultists and thugs.

Improved gifts for Daemon Princes.

Egrimm Van Horstman.

Odin
26-10-2011, 18:27
I like a lot of the suggestions here. Some go too far (12 pts for horsemen would probably be fine).

Halberds need to be 2 pts at least for warriors, GWs probably cheaper. At the moment halberds or HW & Shields are a no-brainer for Warriors. Likewise, probably 2 pts for GWs on Marauders.

On a more out there note, I'd like all Shaggoths to have a weaker version of Kholek's lightning attack. I'd like Marauder missile infantry of some kind - archers or skirmishing axe/javelin throwers.

sometimesafish
26-10-2011, 18:37
I think the marks are fine. All 4 marks are used in armies, I think this shows the marks are well balanced and worth taking. (There aren't many undiveded armies out there). Giving marks per model sounds interesting, but could get quite complicated and I fear it's not practical.

logan054
26-10-2011, 19:01
MoN reworked.
MoS reworked.
MoK adding to dispel if the army has no Wizards.

I think all the marks should be reworked, MoT just gives characters silly wardsaves, it should either bring back the idea of warrior mages or go in a new direction, perhaps along the lines of god of change (mutation). I don't think MoK should add dispel dice, either the characters should be able to dispel as if x level wizards, models with the mark able to channel.

Nurgle needs a rethink, as does Slaanesh


Shaggoth

I think if the shaggoth was +1T it would become some much more viable.

Daemon princes would work if the they had access to chaos gifts more like in the DoC book, perhaps if MoK gave a khorne daemon prince armour (like a 3+ save). being able to have magic items is just a quick fix really, the chaos gifts are just badly thought out, especially when you compare them to some of the vampire powers.

Odin
26-10-2011, 19:04
I think the marks are fine. All 4 marks are used in armies, I think this shows the marks are well balanced and worth taking. (There aren't many undiveded armies out there). Giving marks per model sounds interesting, but could get quite complicated and I fear it's not practical.

You must be joking.

Only people who don't mind about optimum builds would ever take the Mark of Nurgle or Slaanesh. And while there are still some of us who don't base army lists on what works best, you shouldn't have to weaken your army just because you like Slaanesh.

TheOneHawk
26-10-2011, 19:08
Just because WoC players use everything doesn't mean everything is balanced. I have a straight MoN, lord on dragon list in the army list forum right now. Guess what, just because I'm going to play that list doesn't mean it compares to Tzeentch chosenstar and 3++ disk lord.

Jack of Blades
26-10-2011, 19:17
You must be joking.

This is the impression I get too. The attitudes shown here are ... bothersome.

If you're fine with crappy design or you don't even see that it's bad, if you don't see the need to improve, then why are you participating in a wishlist thread? I mean I could understand if it was a matter of taste. But we are talking objectively bad design. It's like saying that rotten food is ok because starving people still eat it. I mean come on :p

Eddie Chaos
26-10-2011, 19:44
Marauder Lords please

and add some crazy unit upgrades (it is chaos after all)

TheDarkDuke
26-10-2011, 22:03
Let me see... the only way I would start up warriors of chaos would be to
-combine all 3 chaos armies again (at least let me combine them)
-tzeentch chaos lord sorcerors. I miss the last edition where i had a 470 or so point monster. (that said he seemed to blow himself up so often that he was a waste)
-Get rid of the stupid always have to challenge garbage. I'm pretty sure most people dont want the pathetic little mages in a fight with a doombull or some other Decked out fighty character (if anyone still uses fighty characters).
-Demon princes that are a handicap when you take one.
- and lastly a model for Kholek. that artwork is awesome and i would love a model that looks like him. Question is can GW actually make the model actually look like it and not screw it up horrendously.

AlphariusOmegon20
26-10-2011, 22:03
It's still a badly designed mark. And only having it on one unit (marauder horsemen) is bad design too. It would've been ok if it was the only mark available - just like anything else that can't be compared to anything since it's the only thing of its kind - but it's not. It's got three marks to compete with. That is why it is not a situational mark but a badly designed mark. It's not that useful what with BSB re-rolls and Will of Chaos anyway, which reminds me that the mark of Khorne is simply the mark of Slaanesh+1.

I had to comment on this because, no real personal offense intended, views that accept bad design annoy me :)

See, I view MoS as MoK+1 or ItP+1. You can not choose flee as a charge reaction with the MoK, you can with MoS.

It allows you more options than "stand there and take the charge" especially when it's not to your advantage to do so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jack of Blades
26-10-2011, 22:17
So we've reduced Slaanesh, a whole Chaos god, an awesome section of lore, into being useful for choosing to flee as a charge reaction (when is this useful except on Marauder Horsemen?) in a Warriors of Chaos army. And that's fine. Great design philosophy there :)

Seriously? And why would a unit with the MoK want to flee anyway?

Last Edition
26-10-2011, 22:26
I want a book that ables you to field the more oldish chaos style army; with an "enemy within" kinda chaos: cultists, the old chaos thugs, shadow-taken Empire nobles and mutants.

Marks, point costs, and such... I trust the developers will make 8th edition worthy :)

Hashulaman
26-10-2011, 22:29
Id mainly like to see characters with the MoT become automatic wizards of sorts, a Exhaulted Hero be a level 1 and a Lord be a level 2 or something.

Khorne getting more anti magic would be nice, more dispel dice, MR, things like that, maybe never loose frenzy

Nurgle....maybe +1 toughness or an extra wound? Not sure about that


Have no idea how to improce slannesh

TheOneHawk
26-10-2011, 22:33
+1 T for nurgle? Yes please, T5 warriors om nom nom.

blood_beast
26-10-2011, 22:34
Everyone always talks bout those "old armies" with "cultists" and "thugs"...from memory no one used thugs all that often. Beastmen were better value points-wise and looked cooler. Having played Chaos for a very long time, I love the marauders, I think they've added way more depth to the army in terms of game play and fluff.

michaells
26-10-2011, 23:48
-a model for vilicth
-valkia the bloody
-festus the leech lord
-throg the troll king
i really think these models would look cool and save quite some time/money to build
also a giant mamoth 2 that would be epic

Rosstifer
27-10-2011, 00:21
Also, I know he's from Daemons, but I'd love Be'Lakor, I have the Model and it's awesome. Azazel as well, he was badass.

I agree, for the giant plastic kit, a Mammoth.... with a Howdah!!!!

Also, Marauder Axethrowers, as seen in Mark of Chaos.

Units of Spawn is also an awesome idea.

AlphariusOmegon20
27-10-2011, 02:52
So we've reduced Slaanesh, a whole Chaos god, an awesome section of lore, into being useful for choosing to flee as a charge reaction (when is this useful except on Marauder Horsemen?) in a Warriors of Chaos army. And that's fine. Great design philosophy there :)

Seriously? And why would a unit with the MoK want to flee anyway?

If you set it up right, there's nothing else the charging unit can redirect into, causing them to fail charge, allowing you to flank charge next turn with another heavy infantry unit like Warriors.

It works with any unit that has MoS, not just Marauder Horsemen. Might as well use that high leadership to your advantage. ;)

The trick simply does not work with MoK, due to the charge reaction restrictions placed on it by ItP.

Barry "the blade"
27-10-2011, 06:03
Three books into 8th ed, and I'm very happy with the internal/external ballance of all three of those books. A couple/very few no brainers, and few units that are just pain bad.

Thats what I want from WoC. Plus a couple cool new units, and for the chaos god tea party to end (both fluff wise, and game play/army comp wise).

At the moment I do trust GW to get it right.

Dreadlordpaul
27-10-2011, 08:31
I want to do a warriors of chaos army and personally I would deffo start them if I could have for example a khorne army led by a blood thirster because that would just be plain awesome also maybe create a lord for each god for example
Tzeench lord is a level 2 wizard along with combat beast
Khorne lord is more along the line with the blood thirster
Slaanesh lord is like keeper and is a mix between combat and magic
Nurgle lord pretty much the same as the great unclean one

Despiser
27-10-2011, 10:14
I know the OP said 'no obvious stuff that will never get done' (like HoC) but we are wishlisting so wth :P

Id wish to have 2 separate armies/books:
Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness
-WoC
-DoC
-War Mammoth

Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned
-Beasts of Chaos
-Cultists, forsaken, possessed, etc.
-Hellcannon & warshrine (i feel these make more sense here)

Now, on to the realistic wishlist...
The Eye of the Gods rule needs to be revamped and repurposed. Right now people use it as a way to buff units and dont actively seek (or they just ignore) the character buffs after a challenge. So why not use it like that? The following EotG rule is inspired by the 5th edition chaos gift cards:

Eye of the Gods
At the start of the game you can buff D6 units.
Pick a unit and roll 2D6 on the EotG table.
The unit gets that bonus for the rest of the game.
You can only buff a unit once.

Also, Marks of Chaos should be restricted to chaos warriors, chosen, knights and characters. Whats this free-for-all nonsense? Marauders with marks?...GIANTS??? Come on, that was lazy design by Phil...

Concerning the army list itself...
*Buff Daemon Princes, but keep the cost the same

*Tone down Chaos Lords and reduce their cost.

*Chaos Warriors back to Attacks 1, at reduced cost.

*Id like to see spawn become core (but dont count towards minimum), sort of like Corpse Carts. Either that or be 'attached' to other units like skaven weapon teams.

*Chaos Ogres moved to Core too - they cant compete with Trolls anyway.

*Chariots in units of 1-3

*All Shaggoth can call lightning, not just Kholek

*Remove Hellcannon, its completely out of place, and add War Mammoth

SkawtheFalconer
27-10-2011, 13:50
I'd LOVE some shooting troops - even if its only one unit (Marauder horse don't count). I know it's not in keeping with the fluff or the way the armies played recently, but I need SOMETHING to help me take care of all these dirty little shooting units like Skinks that always ruin my day.

I also wouldn't mind a slight points reduction. Across the board, but I'd love to see the Forsaken specifically stay as they are but go down to about 10 points each. I sometimes field 5 as they are, but would field a lot more a lot more often if they were cheaper.

BigbyWolf
27-10-2011, 16:58
Everyone always talks bout those "old armies" with "cultists" and "thugs"...from memory no one used thugs all that often. Beastmen were better value points-wise and looked cooler.

Beastmen also had 2 wounds each, which made them better, but I used to use cultists/ thugs for the theme, and still do. I use Marauder rules, but with kit-bashed state-troops/ free company/ flagellents. Chaos was far more subversive and interesting then, as opposed to the "Northmen SMASH puny Southmen!" style they have nowadays.

Arijharn
28-10-2011, 10:16
Mainly I want the Marks to be adjusted (primarily Tzeentch; +1 to Ward is just so over the top Imo now that it's ridiculous) and probably open up Magic Item choices and/or shut others down (based on Mark). I'd like to see some sort of benefit if someone decides to bring a mono-God list too.

blood_beast
28-10-2011, 11:12
Beastmen also had 2 wounds each, which made them better, but I used to use cultists/ thugs for the theme, and still do. I use Marauder rules, but with kit-bashed state-troops/ free company/ flagellents. Chaos was far more subversive and interesting then, as opposed to the "Northmen SMASH puny Southmen!" style they have nowadays.

Yeah man, the two wound beasts were awesome. By all means i dig the subversive/traitor theme that the army had, but I kinda see where they were coming from, the questions of "where do all these chaos warriors come from?" needed to be answered some how...

Someone mentioned the old Realm of Chaos books earlier in this thread. That's give me an idea, resurrect the old separate army lists for each god - give each one access to different units & army-specific rules to balance the list so they don't get OTT. I imagine that would make things soo much fun again, and they could include a basic "undivided/combined god" list to keep the players who run multiple marks happy.

Khalach
28-10-2011, 11:13
I would love to see a War Mammoth in the new army book :D

Other stuff that is needed is Marauders with GWs, models for more special characters, and a chariot/warshrine kit in plastic would be nice .

Odin
28-10-2011, 11:57
I definitely like the idea of better marks for lords.

For Tzeentch, I would add the option for Exalteds to be Lvl 1 and Lords to be Lvl 2 sorcerers.

For Khorne, I would look at maybe +2A from frenzy, or it can't be lost, or something like the bloodgreed rule.

Slaanesh characters should maybe get an Initiative boost

Nurgle need a mark that works more often than not. But an extra wound for Lords would be good (perhaps with an Initiative reduction to balance it).

For the EotG rules, they need to be more balanced. Either:

- challenging is optional but the rules are good enough to encourage you to do it a lot of the time

- challenging stays compulsory but characters get a boost in challenges

TsukeFox
28-10-2011, 16:11
MoT only give +1 armor save & if the armour save reaches +2 then and only then does it grant a stackable ward save.

TheOneHawk
28-10-2011, 16:48
Every MoT unit can channel power dice, every MoK unit can channel dispel dice?

Odin
29-10-2011, 12:05
Every MoT unit can channel power dice, every MoK unit can channel dispel dice?

I'd say every character maybe. Not units.

TheOneHawk
29-10-2011, 12:35
Channel is only on a 6+. You'd need six units to have an extra power or dispel dice per turn, on average.

GenerationTerrorist
29-10-2011, 17:49
I'd love to see us have a cheap flying unit (think Harpies/Furies) to make up for our lack of real shooting.

I have already done a thread about what I'd like to see for Marks. Points cost would be per model rather than per-unit....I don't think GW expected people to rock up with 50 Great Weapon Khorne Marauders when they wrote our book back in 2008!

A brief summary of what I would LOVE to see, despite how unlikely it is:

KHORNE
- An army led by an MoK General may not take any Wizards, but can use it's basic dispel as if a Lvl 4
- Units with MoK have MR1 (Heroes MR2 and Lords MR3)
- MoK gives Eternal Hatred (similar to Dark Elves) rather than Frenzy

TZEENTCH
- Keep the +1 Ward Save
- Character with MoT may re-roll a single D6 per turn. If the re-roll is also unsucessful, a wound (with no save of any kind) is suffered
- Chaos Lord counts as a Lvl2 Wizard, Exalted Hero counts as a Lvl1

NURGLE
- Units with MoN get Regeneration (6+). Heroes get Regeneration (5+) and Lords Regeneration (4+)
- MoN gives immunity to Poison. Lords and Heroes also get immunity to Killing Blow

SLAANESH
- Characters with MoS gain Armour Piercing attacks, and (for the next combat round only) +1A for every unsaved wound they cause in the current round
- MoS grants immune to psychology
- MoS grants Frenzy that can never be lost

(edit) I'd also like us to have a Daemon Prince to be a worthwhile choice. 1+ Armour Save and 4+ Ward Save as standard, and allowed to take magic items as well as gifts.

grumbaki
29-10-2011, 17:56
Marauder models that look more like this:

http://landser.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/viking_1stpaint.jpg?w=400&h=400

I'd love to have a Norse army. I just can't stand the S&M body-builder look.

Jack of Blades
29-10-2011, 18:17
I must say that GenerationTerrorist's ideas for marks please me greatly. Only some minor adjustments would be needed to make them really good.

logan054
29-10-2011, 20:11
Problem with those ideas is that MoN now does what MoT does, just better, rather than having to take HW+SH for a 5+ wardsave nurgle units can take halberds and have a 5+ regen. I also fear MoT would be very expensive on characters, not only do characters get a +1 wardsave, they become wizards and get a reroll every turn. I think people have become very stuck on this idea that Tzeentch is the god magic and seem to ignore he is the god change as well.

TBH I think it could be more interesting if you dedicated characters/units to a god like the daemon princes in the DoC book and by doing this you could have access to certain upgrades, magic items and chaos gifts.

OldMan
29-10-2011, 20:13
A bit more focus on non human chaos for me:
a) competitive chaos ogres

b) copetitive shagoths. Those guys have a lot of potential, fluffwise they are dwarfing dragons.

c) nice looking competitive Dragon Ogres.

d) Chaos dwarfs. I don't understand GW policy about them. Forgeword sells them, but it is group of cool models that don't make an army - perhaps they are added to Warrior books. I haven't really analysed the tule for using them. I would be nice to have more of them in codex.

e) chaos elfs. Well, according to old novels, they exist - not as race or nation by themselves, but as members of chaos warbands - elves corrupted by chaos. Chaos elves could have all the features of their clean brothers, yet twisted and strenghtened by ruinus powers. They would have all the hatred and ferocity of dark elves, near precognition reflex od High elf, and animal like instinct take from wood elves. Together they would be feral, half animals fuelled by hatred. A true masterpiece of gods who find delight and satisfaction in humilitating most noble of beings by turning them into crazed dogs.

Also i agree that marks need some corrections, as well as differently prized heroes. Demon prince must be more cost-effective, and chaos lord a cit cheaper.

Jack of Blades
29-10-2011, 20:15
Problem with those ideas is that MoN now does what MoT does, just better, rather than having to take HW+SH for a 5+ wardsave nurgle units can take halberds and have a 5+ regen. I also fear MoT would be very expensive on characters, not only do characters get a +1 wardsave, they become wizards and get a reroll every turn. I think people have become very stuck on this idea that Tzeentch is the god magic and seem to ignore he is the god change as well.

TBH I think it could be more interesting if you dedicated characters/units to a god like the daemon princes in the DoC book and by doing this you could have access to certain upgrades, magic items and chaos gifts.

Good points as always logan, I didn't consider the overlap between Nurgle and Tzeentch which is one of my beefs with the current mark system...

RanaldLoec
31-10-2011, 00:49
Rather than giving bonus x,y or z like we have currently make marks free but each mark allows access to god specific gifts of chaos and magic items.

Or like the paragon of chaos rules from tumarkaun if your general bears a mark any units with the same mark gain a bonus.

Arijharn
31-10-2011, 01:29
Maybe I'm slightly 'odd' but of all the marks, I think Tzeentch's +1 to ward is the one with the most pressing need to go. At the moment; I think it's so 'good' that it pretty much becomes a no brainer.

Armour of Fortune or Preservation giving a 3+ ward save is just ridiculous really. Hell, an Arcane Fulcrum save of 2+ is just plain over the top.

If anything 3+ ward saves should be reserved for ultra rare special characters, not 'rank in file' champions (and by champions I mean all those flavours that we as players can dream up etc)

m1acca1551
31-10-2011, 02:07
We house ruled chosen to be Max 20 0-1 choice to represent the fact they are amongst the oldest and most ruthless WoC around baring champions and lords. We have found that people are still more than happy to take them and they still do very well on the field but aren't an auto include as they are now. Black guard suffer the same restrictions so why not chosen. Couple this with a new mark system and you will find variety coming back to the table top as the crutches are removed form WoC.

Marks of the gods should have 2 seperate roles IMO. 1 when your General chooses a mark, the army get an army wide benefit from it.
Khorne = re-rolls to hit on the fist turn of combat, coupled with the UNIT mark of khorne giving frenzy.
Nurgle = -1 to hit with ranged and for the first turn of CC -1 I (represents the enemy choking on the foulness) coupled with the unit mark giving poisoned attacks or 6+ regen??
Tzeentch = Gift of the fate weaver army wide, allows you to re-deploy one regiment after both players setup. Unit mark = +1 MR or something along the lines of the unit if in combat once per magic phase and you have a standard bearer you can inflict D6 flaming hits on your opponent.
Slanessh = Army wide +1 I coupled with unit marks ignoring psychology

Lord and hero marks to be seperate, from core and special. Just a few Ideas feel free to criticise CONSTRUCTIVLY <(spelling??) :P

Voss
31-10-2011, 02:40
Definitely need a dispel dice per mark of Khorne. .

Thats actually completely unreasonable, even when not in a mono-Khorne army. It would be ridiculously easy to hit the 12 dd cap, even when the opposing player is generating 6 or 7 power dice.

A better solution would be a way to generate a slight bonus to dispel, close to what wizards generate through power level (capping at say, +3) if there are no wizards in the warmy.

Mike3791
31-10-2011, 03:09
Anyone see the forgeworld Chaos War-Mammoth? Yea I want that in the new book but with cooler rules :cool:

logan054
31-10-2011, 17:12
Maybe I'm slightly 'odd' but of all the marks, I think Tzeentch's +1 to ward is the one with the most pressing need to go. At the moment; I think it's so 'good' that it pretty much becomes a no brainer

No, I don't think its at all strange, it is abit abusive having such easy access to 3+ wardsaves, sadly 8th created a lot of balance issues that really need some sort of fixing.

I still think dedicating units a good opening up options is the best way to go, mainly through magic items and gifts, it would also be cool if more characters did things like the Nurgle hero in the forge book. This guy lets you upgrade a unit of nights to khorne knights on juggers.

Nocculum
31-10-2011, 18:31
Aekold Hellbrass.

That is all.

badguyshaveallthefun
31-10-2011, 20:36
Easy access to 3+ Wardsaves (which seems to be everyone's gripe with WoC) didn't really come around until 8th, when the generic magic items introduced a "true" wardsave that we could access. I personally like the idea, but ONLY for characters, I think chosen with a 3++ are just too much. (I personally don't ever take this unit because I like having friends at the end of the day; my Chosen have MoK)
TBH I would like to see the EoTG table go away and be changed with something else. I would like to see the Warshrine give an area buff (something like +1 LD, +1A, +1S, etc... [choose one] to a unit(s) that are within 6" or something) rather than the way it works now. Or maybe it could act like some kind of focus in the magic phase.

I like the idea of 1A Warriors, I think that it helps differentiate Warriors from chosen more, the +1 to both attacks and Weapon Skill.

logan054
31-10-2011, 21:31
I think most people will agree the problem with Tzeentch came about because of 8th ed, I still don't think the marks role in the list reflects their fluff, they seem like the damage soakers, the high resistant anvils? Dunno this just seems more like what nurgle should be doing. Hell I think it makes MoN providing +1T for characters look balanced.

The generic items are really what caused the problem with Chosen, its allowing them to reroll far to much of the table, that is to say I really like the eye of the gods rule, its kinda cool they you get rewarded for killing characters and monsters but it does put chaos characters at a massive disadvantage, always having to issue challenges. If the rest of the rules in the book came across fluffy and fun it wouldn't be such a issue but its like something someone put together in his lunch hour, I really think the book was rushed out because of the daemon split.

I think warshrine would better if they did area effects more based on the mark, Khorne some sort of magic protection, Nurgle resistance or maybe poison attacks, etc.

Not a fan of 1 attack chaos warriors, they would lose the elite feel they have now and would be much like they used to be.

Morkash
31-10-2011, 22:36
Alot of nice ideas were already stated, GenerationTerrorist's ones look great for the big part. I'd not give Slaaneshi units Frenzy however, ItP is good and the character ideas very fitting, but frenzy is not really needed on top of that. Maybe they gain Frenzy for the next combat turn if they won a round of combat?
Would be in line with the Slaaneshi being overjoyed by the sensation of temporary victory! Another idea would be a +1WS for MoS: Khornates are the fiercest Warriors, but Slaaneshi hone their skill to perfection. A Slaaneshi General could come with +1 Ld as well, because he is granted overwhelming charisma by his patron.

Eternal Hatred for Khorne would be ace, and the Banner of Rage would actually make sense on Khorne instead of being abused for "Khorne" Knights/Halberd Warriors with Mark of Nurgle...
The idea with the Lvl 4 Dispel bonus is good, either this or a dispel dice for every MoK character you field (as Voss said, a dice for every MoK Unit would be over the top).

Nurgle is the hardest to get correctly imo. A improving regeneration would be very fitting, +1T or +1W on characters would be welcomed as well. Immunity to poison sounds plausible and fits with the background.

The problem with Marks is that they would be more expensive with these changes. You would have to test it of course, but the Mark of Khorne should cost at least 50 or 60 points on a Lord. Same for Nurgle, a "free" (in terms of not costing magic allowance) 4+ Regen would weight 50 points as well...
To compensate the cost problem, why not make a choice on the marks for the Army General? It would both add variety to the army as well as avoiding the high costs of a "super mark" on Lords:
- Nurgle Generals can choose between 4+ Regeneration or +1T or +1W.
- Khornates can choose between MR3 and a Dispel Dice or be counted as a Lvl 4 Dispeller.
- Tzeentchians can choose between a reroll per turn or being a level 2 wizard or redeploy a unit at the end of deployment. (superior Tacticians)
- Slaaneshi can choose between getting a attack for every wound inflicted, +1 Ld or a ability that opponents need to pass a Ld check in order to attack them.
This change would emphase how much the Chaos armies are shaped by their leader, which is not really represented in the current AB.

Apart from the Marks, the Daemonic gifts need a treatment, either some more God specific which are actually useful (Strength of Khorne for +1S for example, would be great on both a DP and other characters).

The Daemon Prince needs a definite and massive change. Drop him by 50 points, give him Chaos Armour by default or at least the option for it. Magic attacks should be a given, as well as Ld 9 (he was a Chaos Lord after all...) and the option for magic weapons. I find that they do not need access to the whole magic equipment, but magical weapons are fitting for superior mortals who have been chosen for Daemonhood...

Lastly, reintroduce the holy numbers: Grant units of the appropriate starting size the Mark for free.

Elrond12
01-11-2011, 00:17
A few things I would like to see are
1. Plastic great weapons & Halberds added to the Chaos Warriors kit.
2. Cooler looking plastic Dragon Ogres.
3. Tzeenchian wizards given back Access to ALL lores.(I dont have the SOM book so I dont know if its been given back)
4. A cool plastic lord model with all weapon options.
5. Some of the older character brought back & updated.

Eddie Chaos
01-11-2011, 01:46
I think a plastic war mammoth is quite likely. Its also about time for a plastic chaos dragon

TheOneHawk
01-11-2011, 05:17
Vampire lord on zombie dragon makes a great plastic chaos dragon with a few hours work. Especially for Nurgle.

Dominatrix
01-11-2011, 08:12
Vampire lord on zombie dragon makes a great plastic chaos dragon with a few hours work. Especially for Nurgle.

Yes if you ignore the tiny detail that chaos dragons are two-headed..

TheOneHawk
01-11-2011, 08:18
Vampire lord on zombie dragon kit comes with two heads and two necks, one for the dragon one for the terrorgheist. It doesn't take a few hours to build a model unless you're converting, lol.

Rosstifer
01-11-2011, 08:47
Not all Chaos Dragons are two-headed. They ARE Chaotic after all. How many heads did the one Archaon kill have?

Morkash
01-11-2011, 11:03
3. Would be a nice conversion idea, with the Maelstrom Chimera as starting point...would be more than a few hours work, though. :>

Eddie Chaos
01-11-2011, 12:07
Not all Chaos Dragons are two-headed. They ARE Chaotic after all. How many heads did the one Archaon kill have?

unfortunately all chaos dragons are two headed, is says as much in the army bestiary. I agree with you though they should be more random than that.

+1 for the no headed dragon :P

logan054
01-11-2011, 12:12
unfortunately all chaos dragons are two headed, is says as much in the army bestiary. I agree with you though they should be more random than that.

its chaos, you can model your dragons how you like :p

Rosstifer
01-11-2011, 12:19
From the Warriors book, and I quote, "The third challenge Archaon faced was to retrieve the Eye of Sheerian from the lair or the three headed Chaos Dragon Flamefang".

Three heads. Like we've said, it's chaos! Go crazy!

Eddie Chaos
01-11-2011, 13:37
its chaos, you can model your dragons how you like :p

I know that, I am all about the crazy conversions. Just saying the book does say that chaos dragons have two heads.

logan054
01-11-2011, 13:41
also says one has 3 heads :p

Morkash
01-11-2011, 13:49
Curse you guys, now I'm stuck with the idea of a enourmous half dead Dragon of Nurgle build with the Terrorgheist kit, gah! :cries:

Akkaryn
01-11-2011, 14:32
I would like to see added bonus for having a single god army.

Something like being able to include daemons as rare choices if the entire army is a single mark would be cool.

logan054
01-11-2011, 14:45
I would like to see added bonus for having a single god army.

Something like being able to include daemons as rare choices if the entire army is a single mark would be cool.

I actually like the way they did it in the Tamurkhan book, thats not to say I want to see that invalidated either but perhaps something that would work along side that?

This is why I wonder if marks would be better for just characters and you choose to dedicate you units to a certain gods, those that chosen the same god as you general get some sort of bonus. The other options is perhaps characters could directly boost units they lead? maybe something along the lines of heralds? Like Khorne heroes could make Khorne warriors suffer from hatred? I think it would fix alot of the balance issue you have with the current marks and perhaps certain banners could only be taken by units dedicated to a certain god? Only Khorne warriors could have the banner of rage, Tzeentch blasted standard, etc.

Maybe even then they could make the book more so every unit has some sort of role rather than trying to create roles for the marks.

I think something like that would keep most players happy and build on what warhammer forge has done.

Chaos gifts need to be more like they are in the daemon army book, 7 or so for each god plus a pool of generic ones make the daemon prince more like the DoC one, say 100pts of gits, up to 50pts can be taken from a god he is dedicated to. Really he doesn't need magic items, he needs access to better gifts which should be useable by chaos characters.

Peregijn
01-11-2011, 17:38
the only wish i have is that we still get to use anything we want and ad some mutations, paint them in chaos colors and say: hey, these flagellant/zomby/ghoul kit bash are marauders of nurgle.

seriously: the main reason that i play and collect chaos is that i can do anything i can think of and just say: chaos mutates, corrupts and converse (if that's the right religious therm)

my next wish should be that my skills in modeling/painting could equal my imagination

for rules: it would be nice to have the marks of chaos get more restrictions... Nurgle on your general? other marks become special choice, something like that

TheOneHawk
01-11-2011, 18:49
Curse you guys, now I'm stuck with the idea of a enourmous half dead Dragon of Nurgle build with the Terrorgheist kit, gah! :cries:

You're welcome. If you do end up doing it, show me when you're done? I want to see someone else's conversion using the same stuff.

Daemonia
01-11-2011, 18:55
Curse you guys, now I'm stuck with the idea of a enourmous half dead Dragon of Nurgle build with the Terrorgheist kit, gah! :cries:

This will haunt my nightmares now. You should definitely give it a go.

Morkash
02-11-2011, 10:36
Let's see what Christmas brings...I guess 2 Chaos Dragons are better than one anyway :angel:

Cambion Daystar
02-11-2011, 11:22
I just like to add that the idea of having the mark of Khorne give extra dispel dice is a very bad idea. It doesn`t scale at all. Check current empire for the abuse that it can cause.
Archlector and priests

Daniel36
02-11-2011, 11:39
I would like to see added bonus for having a single god army.

Something like being able to include daemons as rare choices if the entire army is a single mark would be cool.

Best idea so far! GW should work with that!! In fact, the Daemons should get a similar bonus system for mono armies.

logan054
02-11-2011, 11:45
Best idea so far! GW should work with that!! In fact, the Daemons should get a similar bonus system for mono armies.

Or you could just use the Tarurkhan chaos list :p

Daniel36
02-11-2011, 13:21
Or you could just use the Tarurkhan chaos list :p

Unless you are in a tourney where that don't fly...

I think it's a great idea to give monotheistic (hehe) armies a bonus.

AnomalyOfAwesome
02-11-2011, 13:34
See, that's a sad state of affairs that Tamurkhan is not considered an "official" source. It was produced by the same company, just a smaller section, but because the models come from somewhere else, people herp derp about it. It's sad that these kind of restrictions keep the game from being all it could really be. Tamurkhan introduced a number of ideas that Chaos really needs, and I think they need to take a very big cue from that book

Daniel36
02-11-2011, 13:39
No no no, it's just restricted from the tournament scene, because it is not an army book that tries to be balanced. We all know the official ones don't always succeed, but let's say they do.

It is written as a source book for recreating awesome battles that aren't necessarily balanced. At least, that's how I view it.

Lord Dralnu
02-11-2011, 14:42
This kind of spans both systems, but I would like to see the Daemon Prince rules reflect that they are some of the most terrifying beings in existence.

javgoro
03-11-2011, 08:15
Let's see...
All marks: Make them miniature-based instead of unit-based. This will help nerfing GW marauders without the need for much tinkering.

Mark of Khorne: It's fine as it is, IMO, though I'd like to see mono-khorne get some bonus to dispels. Maybe for characters, they get to add +1/+3 to their dispel rolls, as someone suggested above?
Mark of Nurgle: Make it -1 to hit on hand to hand, instead of -1WS when attacking. Alternatively, make it -1 WS in general, not only when attacking the unit.
Mark of Slaanesh: Make it less situational (no idea how, though). Perhaps +1 Initiative?
Mark of Tzeentch: This has to change, though I really am not sure how.

Eye of the gods: Give bonuses for killing champions.

War altar: Make a hybrid kit with the chariot.

Shaggoth: Make a big plastic kit that can double up as Kholek.

Hellcannon: New plastic kit. Keep the looks, as it's fantastic. Perhaps add an option for a tri-barrelled mortar type, like in Warhammer Online.

Add skirmish to forsaken, and/or give the army furies.

Throgg miniature.

New sculpts for Dragon Ogres, in plastic (we all know they'll be finecast, but since the material is terrible, I'd rather see them in plastic).

New chaos trolls and perhaps chaos ogres (but these are a lower priority).

New marauders (yes please!).

A battle standard bearer miniature.

Marked Chosen knights riding juggies/steeds of slaanesh/screamers/plague toads. I know I wanna use my brass knights conversion, and it would make juggernaut riding lords much more viable, by giving them a "look out sir!" roll.

A new plastic chaos dragon kit.

Thatīs all I can think of off the top of my head, but I know thereīs more stuff.

Przemcio251
03-11-2011, 10:25
Heard that WOC will be released after the EMPIRE and before the DWARFS:D

Daniel36
03-11-2011, 10:40
You know what I would really like to see?

God specific Spawn kits. I say kits, because right now there are merely god specific bitz included, and the bodies aren't very spawnlike... They are just very muscly... guys...

logan054
03-11-2011, 10:43
Unless you are in a tourney where that don't fly..

then i doubt you bothered about having a fun fluffy list


See, that's a sad state of affairs that Tamurkhan is not considered an "official" source

Don't believe everything you read online

Daniel36
03-11-2011, 10:53
then i doubt you bothered about having a fun fluffy list

I am not a tournament player. But my response was to someone wishing Tamurkhan was for tournaments. I was merely stating that there are tournaments out there (most of them) that do not accept fun, fluffy, unofficial non-armybook armies.

It has nothing to do with how I personally pay Warhammer, which is fun and fluffy. Please read my comments into their context.

logan054
03-11-2011, 10:57
I am not a tournament player. But my response was to someone wishing Tamurkhan was for tournaments.

Then why do you care? I don't! I have armies I can take to tournaments and armies I have at home for fun, chaos dwarf lists I have heard indie GT's might be allowing. I really doubt the Chaos host list will, it to abusive but the book tells you its not designed with this in mind but for fun larger games.

Hermanesq
03-11-2011, 11:37
A monstrous mount, that doesn't have wings, so I can use this boy without him being a counts as Kholek. Ogre got something awesome, I want something similarly awesome for my Marauder convoy army

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w96/Hermanesq/Chaos%20Warriors/lord5.jpg

Daniel36
03-11-2011, 11:41
This is a wishlist thread on an official Chaos Warrior Army Book, and I wish they give Chaos options they do not currently have, that are apparently present in the Tamurkhan book, which can't be used everywhere. And while I am not a tournament player per sé, I do sometimes attend them and I am just wishing that they include those things, so I don't NEED to have two seperate armies, but can play a fun and fluffy one and if there happens to be a tournament around can still use those fun and fluffy models.

And I want my fun and fluffy list to be encouraged by the rules, which could be done by giving mono god armies a bonus.

But I don't really understand why we are having this discussion, honestly. Because I have the feeling that we both want the same things out of our games, ultimately.

etancross
03-11-2011, 12:55
I'm shocked at how many people want nerf's to units or abilities in the book, the book is strong but its not over the top. I think some things need to be "Changed" not nerfed.

logan054
03-11-2011, 13:04
This is a wishlist thread on an official Chaos Warrior Army Book, and I wish they give Chaos options they do not currently have, that are apparently present in the Tamurkhan book, which can't be used everywhere.

My point is you do have the option to do it and the only place you cannot use it is in a competitive environment such as a tournament. while I miss taking my mono Khorne armies to tournaments perhaps its for the best that fluffy lists like these that use multiple books are left at home.

Not sure why you are saying apparently, I bought the book last weekend at warhammer world, it has rules for combining the chaos books with some very fluffy lists. I guess we are having this discussion because you dislike/don't believe/don't understand (which ever is appropriate) the option provided.

Your not alone in wanting fun fluffy lists supported by the rules, I hate the WoC book, I can tell you if it had been written with a similar mindset set as to Tamurkhan we would have what want. I personally don't think a new book is going to us this option with the Tamurkhan sitting on the shelve and I doubt it would have gotten the go ahead either.

TheOneHawk
03-11-2011, 14:40
Oh, also, flayerkin from SoC need to come back, because I converted some and can't use them! I guess I could use them as forsaken, but they suck.

Dominatrix
03-11-2011, 17:48
Oh, also, flayerkin from SoC need to come back, because I converted some and can't use them! I guess I could use them as forsaken, but they suck.

So maybe you should ask for forsaken worth considering then and use your flayerkin as such! ;)

TheOneHawk
03-11-2011, 19:02
But flayerkin were *********** awesome. scouting skirmishers with 2 attacks and KB. Basically an assassin squad.

Daniel36
03-11-2011, 19:49
They looked cool too... At least those conversions I think they were... Kinda like Chaos Skaven Assasins...

TheOneHawk
03-11-2011, 22:20
I worked so hard on those conversions :(

Seriously, how awesome are half marauder half rat mindless warriors who fight with swords bonded to their wrists that double as climbing hooks. Extremely awesome is the answer.

zak
03-11-2011, 23:24
I would like to see the following: -

MoK - Allows characters to channel for dispel dice on 4/5+ (lord/hero) and units on 6+. This is lost if any other spell casters are used.
Units of God specific spawns.
Mutations for warriors. Buy the upgrade and roll at the start of the game. Some will be good, some not so good and one means lose a model who has spawned. Basically more Chaotic and random.
Marauder hero's/lords.
Marauder hunters - skirmish, throwing spears (no bows!).
Chaos Dwarves. Atleast use them somewhere. Blunderbuss unit giving the Chaos army some ranged weaponry. Won't ever happen!

michaells
04-11-2011, 01:21
The chaos dwarfs idea would be sick!

Mike3791
04-11-2011, 02:48
I think Chaos Warriors need a WS and an Int nerf

TheOneHawk
04-11-2011, 03:42
Why do people think CW need to be nerfed? The main idea behind WoC is that the majority of their army is elite. Thus we should have elite, core troops, and pay for them. What's the problem? They're hardly OP.

Rosstifer
04-11-2011, 04:04
Why do people think CW need to be nerfed? The main idea behind WoC is that the majority of their army is elite. Thus we should have elite, core troops, and pay for them. What's the problem? They're hardly OP.

Well, this is the internet. There's also a massive thread about how Ghouls are OP.

Alot of times people mistake "Worth it's points" with "OP". I think Chaos Warriors are very good, and represent there fluff well on the tabletop.
I don't think they need nerfing. Why would they be the same skill and speed of a Swordsman, when they have been fighting and training in a much harsher environment, and have been gifted by the dark gods themselves?

Morkash
04-11-2011, 11:19
@Mike3791: Watch this video if you are not convinced by Chaos Warriors: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5enBMSH5ghc (And ignore the priest, he is the good hero...;) )

I do not think they are overpowered. Compare them to other similarly priced units - Black Guard, Witch Elves, Swordmasters, Phoenix Guard. All of these units are good and well worth their points, but that does not make them broken.

Daniel36
04-11-2011, 11:28
Interesting thought, to add Chaos Dwarfs to the mix.

Honestly, that would kick a lot of butt. In fact, I would personally love a "Forces of Chaos" book. Some people (me included) already wish they would just put Warriors and Daemons back together, but why not also include Dwarfs?

Chaos Warriors
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Dwarfs

Would look pretty awesome on the battlefield if you ask me, and doesn't sound strange either. The Dwarfs already gave 'em the Hellcannon, might as well join in the fun themselves, no? Warriors being the stronger ones, Dwarfs being the tougher ones. Yeah, I am feeling it.

I do feel Beastmen are a seperate entity, as they are practically all over the Empire as opposed to having their own region, but Warriors and Dwarfs (and Daemons) in the same army? I vote aye.

Even if they made just one set with two unit options, and possibly a hero entry, people craving the return of Chaos Dwarfs could at least make a fluffy list with those entries. Sure, they probably won't be tournament winning lists, but at least people can finally get to work with them.

logan054
04-11-2011, 11:48
I think Chaos Warriors need a WS and an Int nerf

I could live with a I nerf if they came down in price, WS certainly not, they are chaos warriors, they should be rock!


@Mike3791: Watch this video if you are not convinced by Chaos Warriors: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5enBMSH5ghc

I love that Video, always inspires me to paint up some chaos warriors :) I always picture that when I am playing against empire as well ;)

Sh4d0w
05-11-2011, 12:14
@Mike3791: Watch this video if you are not convinced by Chaos Warriors: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5enBMSH5ghc (And ignore the priest, he is the good hero...;) )

I do not think they are overpowered. Compare them to other similarly priced units - Black Guard, Witch Elves, Swordmasters, Phoenix Guard. All of these units are good and well worth their points, but that does not make them broken.

yet with the right set-up and same amount of points chaos warriors down all of these, and their core. I'm not saying there overpowered I just think your comparison is abit off. I don't actually see why they have I5, WS5 makes sense since they are "elite" the rest works out but why I5?? Elves according to all the fluff in warhammer have the quickest reflexes, most agile etc...so why are chaos equal too them? I4 would make amens.

Reptile
05-11-2011, 19:47
yet with the right set-up and same amount of points chaos warriors down all of these, and their core. I'm not saying there overpowered I just think your comparison is abit off. I don't actually see why they have I5, WS5 makes sense since they are "elite" the rest works out but why I5?? Elves according to all the fluff in warhammer have the quickest reflexes, most agile etc...so why are chaos equal too them? I4 would make amens.

Chaos augmentation and a lifetime of warfare in the most horrific of conditions have honed their reflexes to the level of an Elf.

Bear in mind they are only as quick as your regular Elf. Most (though not all) elite Elven warriors still have higher I.
Also, Elves still have higher movement value.
So they are the have quickest reflexes, are the most agile, etc... They just don't hold a monopoly on preternatural reflexes.

javgoro
06-11-2011, 16:41
Chaos augmentation and a lifetime of warfare in the most horrific of conditions have honed their reflexes to the level of an Elf.

Bear in mind they are only as quick as your regular Elf. Most (though not all) elite Elven warriors still have higher I.
Also, Elves still have higher movement value.
So they are the have quickest reflexes, are the most agile, etc... They just don't hold a monopoly on preternatural reflexes.

Very true... Not to mention speed of Asuryan, that makes Elves faster than a 3m. long charging lance.

logan054
06-11-2011, 17:03
yet with the right set-up and same amount of points chaos warriors down all of these, and their core. I'm not saying there overpowered I just think your comparison is abit off. I don't actually see why they have I5, WS5 makes sense since they are "elite" the rest works out but why I5?? Elves according to all the fluff in warhammer have the quickest reflexes, most agile etc...so why are chaos equal too them? I4 would make amens.

Why does a empire hero have I5? when I think about they stats are to reflect that they are more like a unit of human heroes than a unit of elite warriors, your just looking at the rules and forgetting about the fluff. That isn't to say I would grumble if they became I4 so long as they had a suitable price adjustment, more chaos warriors on the table makes me a happy bunny :)

Khal
07-11-2011, 09:17
It's like saying why goblin heroes have the same T as a dragon ogre. Or a minotaur.

The problem with profile stats is they can be 10 at most. You can't fit all those comparisons in a 10based profile.

This said, I wouldn't find reasonable warriors go down to 1 attack at S4WS4. It doesn't make sense. They're leaders of tribes... they've been fighting for decades.

I would really like to see slaanesh mark improved. Maybe ASF is too much ( Halberd warriors hitting 88%attacks? wow )

Daemonia
07-11-2011, 14:33
Chaos Warriors have always been big and nasty. If your basic plan is to meet them head-on with close combat alone in an even setting you only have yourself to blame for losing. If you aren't kiting any devotees of Khorne, shooting all warriors with artillery/spells, flanking Marauders with cavalry or some other suitable tactic then you are going to lose. The elites of most armies can go toe-to-toe with Chaos Warriors and are often marginally cheaper than them. A unit of 30 Chaos Warriors with any of the weapon choices and command is over 500pts and that's before you toss them a mark. In the case of a Khorne army like I play, I have absolutely no shooting, no magic, no reliable defence against either of those two things and only a couple of options to dealing with kiting units (<3 Warhounds). If my opponent hasn't shot those units up, kited them, flanked them or charged them with his own badass units (backed up by a monster or cavalry or led by a fighty character), then he has played badly or chosen a force that doesn't work well against a close combat army and needs to work on it.

There's plenty of units in the game that can hold their ground against them but really, an expensive M4 infantry unit with Frenzy is not exactly hard to counter or prepare for. The servants of other gods are harder to kite, of course, but significantly less brutal in combat.

badguyshaveallthefun
07-11-2011, 17:17
My problem isn't Warriors, it's Chosen. People should just absolutely FEAR chosen, but aside from the EoTG table, how do you accurately reflect their truly elite status? That is kind of why I would like to see Warriors nerfed just a little bit, to set them apart more from chosen. I really want to like chosen, but in their current incarnation, I just can't.

Daniel36
07-11-2011, 17:56
Chosen should cause Terror. Their aura alone should do that to people. They are Chosen by Chaos after all.

GenerationTerrorist
07-11-2011, 21:51
Interesting discussion on this thread.

I would not mind if our I5 was toned down to I4. We should, however, get a point decrease of 1-2pts for that. Even further if we go down to 1A - We'd essentially become Black Orcs (I assume they have 1A) with a higher Initiative, no ITP and +1 better save.
Chaos Knight should be down to about 32-34pts now that Cavalry no longer rules all. I'd keep Horsemen as they are, because they have lots of use with Vanguard, etc.

Reptile
07-11-2011, 22:26
Interesting discussion on this thread.

I would not mind if our I5 was toned down to I4. We should, however, get a point decrease of 1-2pts for that. Even further if we go down to 1A - We'd essentially become Black Orcs (I assume they have 1A) with a higher Initiative, no ITP and +1 better save.
Chaos Knight should be down to about 32-34pts now that Cavalry no longer rules all. I'd keep Horsemen as they are, because they have lots of use with Vanguard, etc.

Blorcs are 1A.

logan054
07-11-2011, 22:54
Even further if we go down to 1A - We'd essentially become Black Orcs (I assume they have 1A) with a higher Initiative, no ITP and +1 better save.

I think people forget how terrible chaos warriors used to be, I am completely against A1 chaos warriors, just makes them feel so unelite, considering the lack of firepower its just a terrible idea.

Harwammer
08-11-2011, 03:21
We're not forgetting. 1A was terrible in 7th due to lack of step up and fight in ranks. The most recent army book have warriors at 2A to make them more viable in that edition.

I think 8th ed has fixed infantry to the degree where 1A warriors would work (at a reduced points), differentiate chosen from warriors, allow WoC players to fit more models in their army and therefore sell more figures for gw.

Rosstifer
08-11-2011, 03:31
We're not forgetting. 1A was terrible in 7th due to lack of step up and fight in ranks. The most recent army book have warriors at 2A to make them more viable in that edition.

I think 8th ed has fixed infantry to the degree where 1A warriors would work (at a reduced points), differentiate chosen from warriors, allow WoC players to fit more models in their army and therefore sell more figures for gw.

TBH if Warriors went down to 1 attack I'd ditch the unit in my army for even more Khorne Marauders with GW.

TheOneHawk
08-11-2011, 04:09
Yeah, warriors need to be significantly better than marauders. Two attacks, for sure. If you want Chosen to be better, give them three :o

What, they're one step down from Exalted Heroes, who have four attacks. I CAN DREAM!

Mike3791
08-11-2011, 04:45
@Mike3791: Watch this video if you are not convinced by Chaos Warriors: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5enBMSH5ghc (And ignore the priest, he is the good hero...;) )

I do not think they are overpowered. Compare them to other similarly priced units - Black Guard, Witch Elves, Swordmasters, Phoenix Guard. All of these units are good and well worth their points, but that does not make them broken.

I am familiar with the WoC fluff and I have seen this trailer back when MoC first came out (too bad it was a great trailer for a terrible game). That aside, All those elven units you mentioned are SPECIAL units, I believe all elven CORE should be strike before Chaos Warriors too, its not like the warriors can't handle it.. or that they won't horribly butcher the elves on the return attacks.


yet with the right set-up and same amount of points chaos warriors down all of these, and their core. I'm not saying there overpowered I just think your comparison is abit off. I don't actually see why they have I5, WS5 makes sense since they are "elite" the rest works out but why I5?? Elves according to all the fluff in warhammer have the quickest reflexes, most agile etc...so why are chaos equal too them? I4 would make amens.

This was my logic too, that way Elven core still go before WoC core. The real problem is the Chaos Chosen as right now they are almost identical to warriors. I would let Chosen keep I5 and maybe give them better armor (chosen armor?) or 3A, and 1 or 2 special rules.. ANYTHING to greatly distinguish themselves from the Warriors.


We're not forgetting. 1A was terrible in 7th due to lack of step up and fight in ranks. The most recent army book have warriors at 2A to make them more viable in that edition.

I think 8th ed has fixed infantry to the degree where 1A warriors would work (at a reduced points), differentiate chosen from warriors, allow WoC players to fit more models in their army and therefore sell more figures for gw.

I am against taking away 2A for Warriors, cause then you would have to take it away from Saurus Warriors too just to be fair.

badguyshaveallthefun
08-11-2011, 16:27
I think people forget how terrible chaos warriors used to be, I am completely against A1 chaos warriors, just makes them feel so unelite, considering the lack of firepower its just a terrible idea.

I will echo Harwammer here, I don't think people have forgotten how bad they used to be. How can I ever forget the Heavy Armor treatment they gave my Warriors in their previous book; HEAVY ARMOR!!! Please oh please oh please GW don't ever do that again.

3A Chosen would be awesome, but I think it's a little unprecedented. Maybe instead allow the second rank to strike back with 2A instead of one? Otherwise that would be a lot of attacks wasted from those rear ranks. Hmmm....how to fix chosen....they should [as someone earlier said] at least cause fear, if Chaos Knights can cause fear than I think it would be safe to say that chosen should cause fear too. What if Chosen were base S5? As someone earlier said, it's not that big of a gap between chosen and an exalted, and all our chracters have S5.

And what's with giving chosen a free roll on the EoTG but not characters??

logan054
08-11-2011, 16:33
A1 CW would be awful, I think people are forgetting that CW only had 1 attack for 1 book, I wasn't under the impression that CW needed toning down, perhaps the problem is more MoK and 2 attacks rather than 2 attack chaos warriors. With this in mind perhaps its MoK that needs changing rather than chaos warriors?


I will echo Harwammer here, I don't think people have forgotten how bad they used to be. How can I ever forget the Heavy Armor treatment they gave my Warriors in their previous book; HEAVY ARMOR!!! Please oh please oh please GW don't ever do that again.

CW had heavy armour in 5th as well which could be upgraded, can't remember what they had in 4th, heavy armour never actually bothered me, it was the single attack, I can remember marauders having A2, I don't remember people moaning about them back then either. People just want to down power chaos warriors because they have their agenda, unless they seriously redesign the support the army gets why bother? because they slaughter T3 models? guess what, they should, they have one range weapon and crappy lores, they really should be a elite combat army, not slightly better than the rest



3A Chosen would be awesome, but I think it's a little unprecedented. Maybe instead allow the second rank to strike back with 2A instead of one? Otherwise that would be a lot of attacks wasted from those rear ranks. Hmmm....how to fix chosen....they should [as someone earlier said] at least cause fear, if Chaos Knights can cause fear than I think it would be safe to say that chosen should cause fear too. What if Chosen were base S5? As someone earlier said, it's not that big of a gap between chosen and an exalted, and all our chracters have S5.

And what's with giving chosen a free roll on the EoTG but not characters??

As it stands I don't see any reason to make changes to chosen bar increasing the price of halberds so they are more than great weapons, removing the champion option and allowing any model to accept challenges, I don't think chaos knights or chosen should cause fear, if you follow this train of thought then Chaos heroes and lords should cause terror! I wouldn't mind seeing Chosen with enscrolled weapons and changing the rules so it was any weapon they carry is +1 strength and magical attacks.

While I see your point I think its a funky rule that makes them stand out from chaos warriors, I don't think its really needed for characters as well, it would be nice if they fixed EoTG so you didn't have to challenge but gave you a incentive to do so.

They also seriously need to look at the marks, sadly some marks are just plain better than others :(

covenant
08-11-2011, 17:02
yet with the right set-up and same amount of points chaos warriors down all of these, and their core. I'm not saying there overpowered I just think your comparison is abit off. I don't actually see why they have I5, WS5 makes sense since they are "elite" the rest works out but why I5?? Elves according to all the fluff in warhammer have the quickest reflexes, most agile etc...so why are chaos equal too them? I4 would make amens.

I couldn't agree more with this.. I5 with the rest of their stat line and armour is a little silly,they are great hulking warriors who strike at the same time as glade guard with no armour!

WS5 seems to be the norm for 'elite' though.

covenant
08-11-2011, 17:03
I also think that the hellcannon needs some work...It's not right that a misfire and a roll of a 6 can cause such massive damage to the enemy.

logan054
08-11-2011, 17:12
I couldn't agree more with this.. I5 with the rest of their stat line and armour is a little silly,they are great hulking warriors who strike at the same time as glade guard with no armour!

So a empire hero in full plate mail should be I4 as well?

TheOneHawk
08-11-2011, 17:18
Why are people trying to 'fix' probably the least broken thing in our army. Our lores are below average, chosenstar is stupid as hell, marks are ridiculously imbalanced, Marauders with GW are too cheap, Knights are too expensive, half of our monsters never get taken, and we're complaining about warriors. Seriously? They're a solid core choice that is neither over nor under powered. If they didn't change them at all for next edition I'd be super happy. They're exactly how they should be, right now.

covenant
08-11-2011, 17:29
So a empire hero in full plate mail should be I4 as well?

No, they are heroes so they should get better stats, surely? Chaos Warriors as core troops are currently highly Skilled, Tough , Strong, have 2 attacks and are as fast as an elf.

I think thats a bit much in my opinion.

logan054
08-11-2011, 17:37
Thats entirely true, they do need to fix the costs of weapons on chaos warriors like swapping the price of halberds and great weapons, certainly marauders with great weapons are to cheap, they should be +2pts for great weapons.

The Marks need a serious look at, I would be tempted to swap frenzy in MoK for devastating charge, certainly drop the +1 wardsave on Tzeentch


No, they are heroes so they should get better stats, surely? Chaos Warriors as core troops are currently highly Skilled, Tough , Strong, have 2 attacks and are as fast as an elf.

I think thats a bit much in my opinion.

Chaos warriors have always have had stats similar to a empire hero, it was only with the HoC book they increased the difference, yes chaos warriors are core troops, they also are very expensive, the same price as many elf elite troops, obviously they pay for it! why are elves so elite, centuries to hone their skills? how is that different to a chaos warrior? I mean a chaos warrior no longer needs to eat, really they are no longer human, they exist to fight in their gods name and earn the ultimate goal of becoming a immortal daemon prince. For me I think HE having ASF is abit much, they have it because someone watched Lotr to many times ;)

They are more like a unit of human heroes than a unit of elite human warriors, when CW get a decent shooting phase then perhaps they should nerf CW slightly, I will admit if they did make them I4, reduce the points (repeating myself now) I wouldn't really care, if they made them A1, I4 I would be annoyed.

Daniel36
08-11-2011, 19:14
So far I didn't really have much input aside from "I wantz new Spawn kit" so...

Warriors - Like the models. Coud use a couple more bitz. Perhaps they should repackage them with an extra sprue that has a couple more cool options for regular Warriors and options for Chosen.

Knights - Not a huge fan of the models personally as they don't rank up properly, but I suppose they look great individually so I am not going to complain. Would've looked better with capes though...

They will need extra rules though. Apparently cavalry is pants in this edition, but there are ways to make them more effective. I always envision them using their weapons to lop off heads in an instant. So if I were to make a rule for them, it would be that a hit is a wound and with a high Strength value armour saves need to be very high.

Marauders - Fluffwise these guys need something... Right now I just don't believe them. The models NEEEEED to go. What are they? The muscles from Brussels? Come on!

They should be made weaker in both appearance and in stats. Just my opinion of course, but right now they just don't make sense in the big picture... Not for me anyways. The horsemen look cool though, but the guys on foot... Guhhh...

So then it's on to other, exciting, new stuff. Let us all focus on that for a while. Because honestly, what do they have to make them suitably Chaos aside from armour? They really need something. Something completely new, or otherwise many more options! Let's brainstorm about that for a while.

I don't own the Storm of Magic book, but I read it a little bit. Half of the monster description start with (a variation of) "This monster born of Chaos is blah blah blah"

Well, if all those monsters are so incredibly Chaos, why are they not in the Warriors of Chaos book? I know it's called "Warriors" of Chaos and not "Everything" of Chaos, but if Chaos made those monsters, they sure as heck would have them ride along with the Warriors, now wouldn't they?

I say moar monstaaahs! Add some Beastmen monsters too! :D
Just my two cents.

GenerationTerrorist
08-11-2011, 21:38
Knights - Not a huge fan of the models personally as they don't rank up properly, but I suppose they look great individually so I am not going to complain. Would've looked better with capes though...

Use the previous edition metal ones, like I do :-)
The visual synergy of and army full of the caped cavalry and caped warriors is awesome!

Maybe our Chaos Knights could be given the Devastating Charge rule? They are, afterall, the epitome of the ultimate shock unit in the game.

Marauder_chieftan
09-11-2011, 14:23
A skirmishing unit or something, like a bunch of on-foot marauders with throwing weapons.

TheOneHawk
09-11-2011, 16:45
AKA, Flayerkin.

Cambion Daystar
09-11-2011, 18:27
And marks paid per model, not per unit (this would probably also fix marauder horde spam).

Daniel36
13-11-2011, 14:36
Yes... I would like to see them do this;

They should release an army book called "Armies of Chaos" and throw everything in it!!
- Warriors
- Daemons
- Beastmen
- Dwarfs

BLAM!

But to keep people who want a "mono-army" happy, they should give a certain bonus to all of the units that belong to the General. So if you choose a Beastmen general, all Beastmen units get a bonus. And then, if you have an army made up entirely of the General's units, so for example an all Beastmen army, then you get another bonus, or maybe just a better version of the previous bonus, I don't know.

I will leave it up to others to come up with cool and effective (but not over effective) bonuses.

Who's with me?

Morkash
13-11-2011, 21:21
Isn't the Great Host of Chaos from Tamurkhan basically like your idea? :) A combined Chaos force, which is influenced by the mark (ok, you said the race, but close...;)) the general wears.

I have to say, I'm happy with that "solution" Tamurkhan provided: You can play the 3 Chaos armies on their own with their respective armybooks, or you can build the Great Host and use a bit of everything. Not sure how many Chaos Dwarfs you can add in that list, though.

Lastly, I cannot say in detail, because my book did not arrive until now. :cries:

But of course I'd love if GW goes this way further, the possibilites with different Marks and Lords would be endless. A bit like the old Realm of Chaos books, where variety was king!

Daniel36
14-11-2011, 12:40
I suppose it basically IS Tamurkhan, yeah... But the problem I have with Tamurkhan is that it's not as easily available as the regular army books, therefore not many people know of its existence, and...

I play more for fun than competetively, but when I do play in a tournament, I would love it if there were mixed hordes instead of just Warriors, just Daemons, etc.

I think it would bring more... fun I suppose... into the game if they made this option into a mainstream army book. And not only that. Many people (rightfully) complain that it is taking so incredibly long for some army books to be redone. If they threw 3 armies back into one book (and added Chaos Dwarfs as an extra people pleaser), things would go a heck of a lot quicker.

We should quote-sig it!


Give us Armies of Chaos - Warriors, Daemons, Beastmen and Dwarfs UNITED!

Or something like that! :)
(I will quote-sig it if you guys do! Teehee)

michaells
14-11-2011, 20:07
@daniel36 that would be a great idea!

Morkash
14-11-2011, 22:05
Heh, you convinced me. Count me in, sulla's hydra comment needs company anyways :p

blood_beast
15-11-2011, 08:36
I suppose it basically IS Tamurkhan, yeah... But the problem I have with Tamurkhan is that it's not as easily available as the regular army books, therefore not many people know of its existence, and...

I play more for fun than competetively, but when I do play in a tournament, I would love it if there were mixed hordes instead of just Warriors, just Daemons, etc.

I think it would bring more... fun I suppose... into the game if they made this option into a mainstream army book. And not only that. Many people (rightfully) complain that it is taking so incredibly long for some army books to be redone. If they threw 3 armies back into one book (and added Chaos Dwarfs as an extra people pleaser), things would go a heck of a lot quicker.

We should quote-sig it!



Or something like that! :)
(I will quote-sig it if you guys do! Teehee)

Tamurkhan is available in GW stores, their online store, and on the Forge World site. It has been discussed on all the forums and by most people into the hobby, I do not understand how anyone could not know about it or not be able to get a copy if the wanted one.

Having said that, I do fully support the idea of all 4 Chaos armies being rolled into one book. There should be god specific and/or race specific bonuses, to encourage taking less WAAC combos. As long as they don't do something stupid like leave beastmen un-mark-able or bringing back the retinue system from 5th Ed.

Daniel36
15-11-2011, 10:42
Well... I never go into a GW store... So... I wouldn't know that. I buy my stuff at LFGS. It has always been my understanding FW books weren't available in GW stores.

So sorry about that.

blood_beast
15-11-2011, 10:52
I wasn't trying to be condescending or anything, I was just pointing out that I find it hard to believe that someone actively involved in the hobby wouldn't know about the book.

Chaos Undecided
15-11-2011, 11:15
I dont think the army list needs much beyond a bit of tweaking from its current format really. They obviously need to do something with Forsaken to make them a more useful inclusion in the army, it'd be nice to be able to take spawn in units as well with the giant spawn possibly becoming part of the official list. Personally I'd like to see more Marauder themed units and characters well so long as they were to release new models in line with the style of the horsemen kit.

Nocculum
15-11-2011, 11:22
I4 for Warriors, with the Mark of Slaneesh giving +1 I and immune to fear, terror and panic as current.

Fixed.

Daemonia
15-11-2011, 11:27
Personally I'd like to see more Marauder themed units and characters well so long as they were to release new models in line with the style of the horsemen kit.

Definitely love to see them as a kind of skirmishing axe thrower unit or something like in the old Chaos vidaya game.

Daniel36
15-11-2011, 14:05
I wasn't trying to be condescending or anything, I was just pointing out that I find it hard to believe that someone actively involved in the hobby wouldn't know about the book.

You didn't offend me. But I do believe that many players really only know the core, and nothing but the core stuff. I mean, I know of Tamurkhan. I don't have the book, not interested in it (I HATE what-if books), but I know it, but I think a lot of players don't know.

Then again, those are probably not that actively involved. I suppose you're right.

ivan55599
15-11-2011, 14:52
I wouldnt throw forsaken away. I would combine flayerkins with them. Like "scouts", KB, chaos armor as buyable options for forsaken or something like that.

blood_beast
16-11-2011, 02:53
I don't think we need a flayerkin/skirmisher unit at all. Forsaken seem like a great idea, they just need Chaos Armour and I think they'd be fine. As mentioned above, it would be cool to take units of spawn, keep the point cost the same but make them a 1+ unit size. Random movement could be determined for the unit as a whole rather than individual models. I would love to field a block of 8 Khorne-marked spawn, such a points sink but would look amazing.

TheOneHawk
16-11-2011, 03:41
Need? No. Want? **** yes.

Rosstifer
16-11-2011, 05:23
You didn't offend me. But I do believe that many players really only know the core, and nothing but the core stuff. I mean, I know of Tamurkhan. I don't have the book, not interested in it (I HATE what-if books), but I know it, but I think a lot of players don't know.

Then again, those are probably not that actively involved. I suppose you're right.

It's not a What If book anymore is it? They scrapped the whole Emperor dead etc etc, when Rick Priestly left.
Still waiting to have enough spare cash to order mine, damn new Necrons.... :(

logan054
16-11-2011, 09:30
It's not a What If book anymore is it? They scrapped the whole Emperor dead etc etc, when Rick Priestly left.
Still waiting to have enough spare cash to order mine, damn new Necrons.... :(

Its set before karl Franz is emperor I think (I still haven't read the fluff :( )


You didn't offend me. But I do believe that many players really only know the core, and nothing but the core stuff. I mean, I know of Tamurkhan. I don't have the book, not interested in it (I HATE what-if books), but I know it, but I think a lot of players don't know.

Then again, those are probably not that actively involved. I suppose you're right.

The sad thing is this book gives you what you want and more but you stubbornly refuse to try it! I've used the list several times (not really done much mixing with it), the paragon rules even with a pure list are loads of fun! I cannot recommend this book enough!

[QUOTE=Morkash Gorehowl;5909102]Isn't the Great Host of Chaos from Tamurkhan basically like your idea? :) A combined Chaos force, which is influenced by the mark (ok, you said the race, but close...;)) the general wears.

Its Mark and race, your min core has to be the same mark and race as your general which has to be a Chaos lord, daemon prince, greater daemon or sorcerer lord, BSB also has to be the same race as your general.

Daniel36
16-11-2011, 16:13
The sad thing is this book gives you what you want and more but you stubbornly refuse to try it!

No... It doesn't really give me what I want. I want a canon book and from everything I've read it's a what-if book. So unless they decided to can that and it IS considered canon, it doesn't give me what I want.

And I am not refusing to try it, I simply don't have the minis to try it. I don't own a workable Chaos army. I have bitz and bobz from the different Chaos armies (Warriors, Daemons, Beastmen) all from different eras, but nothing playable. I am no Warrior player. There are other reasons I don't have any inclinations on buying the book, but those are beside the point.

But the Let's Wishlist threads aren't >just< for actual players. They are just as much for people who have ideas on armies they don't necessarily play. So...

logan054
16-11-2011, 19:15
No... It doesn't really give me what I want. I want a canon book and from everything I've read it's a what-if book

Yeah, the old rumours are from when it was going to be several books, one for each god, it changed when Rick Priestley was fired, so without even looking at your book you have made a bunch of frankly false assumption and you actually argue with people who own the book. As far as I am aware it is cannon, its just set in a point in time that doesn't effect the current fluff, its a amazing book that allows players such as yourself who bits from several chaos armies you can make a legal Chaos host list provided you can muster the 25% min core from a single book.

Your far to negative considering you haven't even tried the damn thing!

TheOneHawk
16-11-2011, 19:23
There's a zillion other Tamurkhan threads. This is about the next WoC armybook. No offence but I when I click this thread I'm hoping to see cool new ideas for my army, not more Tamurkhan discussion.

logan054
16-11-2011, 19:57
I think their are like two other threads, one is a rumor thread, the Tamurkhan stuff is relevant to the discussion as one the ideas requested is presented in this book (which I think indicates its not going to happen sadly).

Raizer
17-11-2011, 18:56
I would recommend Mark of Khorne be Frenzy, a channel roll, and MR1

Daemonia
17-11-2011, 23:29
I would recommend Mark of Khorne be Frenzy, a channel roll, and MR1

Yeah it always mad me a sad panda that in an edition so filled with magic that the devotees of Khorne are still without their old magic-stomping getup. If people insist the channel roll is too much, just leave it to characters or simply have it as only available in an army without casters. Either way Khorne needs more mage-surviving abilities so his minions can do more mage-killing as intended.

sulla
18-11-2011, 03:16
I would recommend Mark of Khorne be Frenzy, a channel roll, and MR1How many points per model would you charge for that?

I think 8th edition has made it obvious (if there was any doubt) that marks can no longer be 'points per unit'.

Here's my wishlist;

NERFS; Marauders -1I, same points but great weapon and flail options increase by 1pt per model. I like the price for fuman frailties; cheap enough to buy in masses but not resilient enough to last long... but high strength hordes are the bane of 8th. Other options need to be made more attractive.

Chaos warriors -1I and the options to buy halberds and great weapons increased by a point for the same reasons. I nerfed because I5 is a little crowded now with all elves and many armies characters around there, plus IMO, Elves should be faster than chaos warriors.

Marks changed to a points per model setup so bigger units will pay more than small units for them. I would also urge GW to round up if in doubt. There should still be a place for units with no mark. As is, is it very rare to see something that can take a mark go without one.

Eye of the gods rewards only last for one turn but any fighter character in the unit allows them to modify the roll by +/-1

CHANGES; Obviously all the lores need to be redone. A good chance to see, not only how the powers of chaos destroy or hex their opponents, but also how each one of them augments their own followers.

Hellcannon to change to a s4 stonethrower with daemonprince-like stats in cc rather than the monstrosity of rules it is now. S4 is a nerf but really it is bringing it in line with current 8th edition artillery. The BRB stone thrower, on a hit to t3 5+as infantry does about 6 kills, whereas the s5 hellcannon does over 3 times that for only double the price. Rather than increasing the price and reducing the amount that could be fielded, it would be better to depower it IMO.

IMPROVEMENTS;
Spawn to be bought in units of 1-5 and random movement increased to 3d6. These guys are just too fragile in 8th.

Chaos Ogres reduced in price.

Dragon Ogres and reduced in price.

Giants reduced in price (unlikely considering they stayed the same in SoM and the O&G book)

Shaggoth to t6, 7W, gains Kholek's lightning attack but only s4.

Forsaken scrapped and replaced with werekin; marauder stats who mutate as the game goes on (similar to current rolls on eye of gods)

Fighter characters reduced in points significantly but must buy armour now to let players make a marauder army if they wish. Must still challenge, but get a roll on the eye just for being in a challenge with a character (rolled before combat starts each turn).

Rosstifer
18-11-2011, 03:24
So, does anyone have any ideas for the Manticore? Jut put my model together, and it's pretty cool in person. I've been trying to think of ways to make it better. 4+ Save, 5 Wounds and an extra attack, and I still think it wouldn't be worth what it is priced now.

Morkash
18-11-2011, 08:15
Manticore is really difficult...we cannot afford to use a monstrous mount under 3000 points generally, and if I do, I usually go for the Chaos Dragon, not a Manticore.

A 4+ save would be a good start, 5 wounds would not hurt either but place it around 150 points, not the 200 it is now. In SoM a basic Manticore is that price and can buy a 4+ save for 12.5 slaves or (rather fitting imo) Frenzy and Hatred for 15 slaves. The latter would be really fitting for the Manti and ensures it can actually cause a bit of damage before it dies.

I can also backup the model itself (well, I sold it on the sprue and only kept the riders), it looked damn fine. Very feral and wild...and the riders are just ace. If I have time I want to build 4 mounted characters as a equivalent to the 4 Horsemen, because the heros (did you see the chaincloak!) are just that good. :)

sulla
18-11-2011, 19:04
So, does anyone have any ideas for the Manticore? Jut put my model together, and it's pretty cool in person. I've been trying to think of ways to make it better. 4+ Save, 5 Wounds and an extra attack, and I still think it wouldn't be worth what it is priced now.Toughness 6, 6 wounds. T6 works really well for the terrorgeist and ogre monsters. Doesn't help against cannons, of course, but nothing short of regen, a ward save or t10 would help there.

MikMatPip
19-11-2011, 13:07
Well, rules-wise I can't really say much, since I haven't played a game in years, but there are other, although minor, things to I'd like changed:

1) The names of the gifts: This is a really tiny thing, but I hate it that most of the gifts are bound to certain gods by their names. Sure, I could give Fury of the Blood God to a Champion of Nurgle, but it would just rub me the wrong way. A great alternative to this would be the Daemonic Gifts in a CSM codex a few editions ago (two?). They were simply named Daemonic Armour, Daemonic Strenght etc etc. They were a bit boring, yes, but at least they fit with any character. So Fury of the Blood God could be Daemonic Resistance (or Obsidian Body, if you want more flavour) and Third Eye could be Daemonic Eye (Or simply Third Eye). Also if, like with most new books, the magic item section is reduced in size, all the items should be usable by all characters, regardless of allegiance, so lose the god-specific names.

2)Daemon Princes: Even though I haven't played a game since Hordes of Chaos, I'm pretty sure they suck. So, make them more formidable in combat. Also, drop the wings as mandatory. Sure, it's a good option, but it should be just an option.

3)Eye of the Gods: I don't know if it would work in a game, but I think there should be two tables on which to roll: The benefits and the risks (Chance to turn into a Spawn, for example). I know that a lot of people would hate this, since it would make it even more unpredictable, but that's exactly what I want from it. It should be powerful, but risky. The same principle should apply to Chaos Magic, too.

4)The fluff: I know it's Chaos and it's supposed to be bad and stuff, but really: horses that drink blood? That's a little too obviously evil. Even for Chaos. Generally I'd like them to move in a more neutrally evil and chaotic direction, and less in the evil knights with spikes direction. Probably not gonna happen, tho.

So all in all: only minor changes to add a more chaosy flavour to WoC.

Dux
29-12-2011, 15:34
My wishes:
1. Reworked Marks; chaoslords should get more than marauders from the marks
2. The mark of the general or heroes should limit the marks units can get. (So no mono-khorne with a Tzeentchsorc als general; I hate fluffrape...)
- you can take unlimited number of marks that are the same as the general
- per hero with another mark you can take 1 or 2 units with that mark
3. some kind of cultists:
- depending on mark of general with different options
- maybe work like Darkelf-assassins but in enemy units (not going to happen but would be cool)
4. Rework all the units, especially Forsaken, Spawns, and the Shaggoth.
5. New models:
- Dragon ogres
- Chaos Ogres
- Chaos Trolls
- warshrine/chariot
- Marauders
6. Chosen Knights on daemonic mount (god specific or not)
7. Cheaper Chaos Lords
8. Better Daemonprince with more abilities
9. I liked the old MoT that made heros into sorcerers.

DeadlySquirrel
29-12-2011, 19:09
Give Beastmen back thier monsters. They are Warriors, not Beasts.

ivan55599
29-12-2011, 19:24
Give Beastmen back thier monsters. They are Warriors, not Beasts.

Heheh...."beastmen are warriors, not beasts." ;)

DeadlySquirrel
29-12-2011, 19:43
Heheh...."beastmen are warriors, not beasts." ;)

No, Warriors are warriors. Beasts are beasts. Beasts do not belong in a Warrior army.

Havock
29-12-2011, 20:03
I wish that the Chaos Warrior is either nerfed slightly (I5 is a bit much imo), or get a slight points increase.

Their stat line is superior to most any other armies special troop types, and they count as core...and the points cost for them is a bit too low.


20 of them with the works cost 400 pts, give or take, they are not 'cheap'. The only thing raising their price will do is making it even more of a no-brainer to go for bigger units. Chaos Warriors are fine.

Gradek
29-12-2011, 21:14
I'd like to see the Shoggoth either replaced/improved/recosted, as it is simply not useful at 265 points (the same as the HPA). Ideally, they would improve the Shoggoth to make it more on par with the HPA for 265 OR drop it as currently stated to around 200 even.

I would also like to see cooler/better warshrine/eye of gods effects, but coupled with a limitation or elimination of FoTG.

RunepriestRidcully
29-12-2011, 22:15
More gifts of the gods, and for the lore of Tzeentch to be more then just "pew pew KABOOOM!!" Whilst Tzeentchian offensive magic powers should be powerful, Tzeentch is also tricky, adn so hex's and buffs would be fit in this as well, as it is the tzeentch lore looks slighty pale in comparison to the rule book lores just because of the variety within each lore. Perhaps spears and bows for warriors? Mainly saying that because the image of chaos warriors with spears is cool (plus ancient elite often spears.) and bows to add some tactical flexibility, and bow warriors like ancient samurai strikes me as cool, and more access to all manner of beasties in lower games! (As it is a chaos dragon can really be played in 3000pts+ games, whilst other armies can have cool creatures in lower pts. Culitsits, spears for marauders, deamonic knights (knights on Juggernauts, disks, ect) and more chaos Dwarves and generally madness of chaos!

Odin
29-12-2011, 23:06
No, Warriors are warriors. Beasts are beasts. Beasts do not belong in a Warrior army.

Yes they do. You might as well argue that warhounds, chaos steeds and manticores don't belong in a Warriors of Chaos army either, because they're all beasts too.

Notice that GW don't refer to the army as "beasts of chaos" any more either. They're beastmen. Personally I'd stick the whole Chaos army back together, but saying that things like Dragon Ogres and Trolls don't belong in a Warriors army because they're a bit beasty makes no sense.

On the other hand, you could well argue that they should feature in the Beastmen army as well as the WoC one. Dragon Ogres in particular.

Odin
29-12-2011, 23:10
20 of them with the works cost 400 pts, give or take, they are not 'cheap'. The only thing raising their price will do is making it even more of a no-brainer to go for bigger units. Chaos Warriors are fine.

Actually, I'd go further than that. I'd say that basic warriors deserve a 1 point price drop at the moment. The Marks of Khorne and Tzeentch should be increased to compensate, because those are currently the only really cost-effective options. Halberds should also be increased in price to 2 or even 3 points per model. So a unit of Khorne Warriors with Halberds would be marginally more expensive, a unit of Tzeentch warriors with shields would be around the same cost, and all the other possible configurations would see some use!

Havock
30-12-2011, 15:48
Indeed, warriors are not incredibly points-efficient in combat, they are, however, incredibly resilient against stuff that tries to prevent them from getting there (ie. most magic and shooting)

The biggest boo-boo comes from people who try to throw their slightly cheaper special slots 1-1 against warriors and find out they get smashed to dust.

trikk86
06-02-2012, 13:13
OK, first of, rework the magic.
Second of all, rework the marks, so that they do what they should. Nurgle should give toughness or regen.
Get rid of frenzy on khorne and give them hate. If letters can have it, so can mortal khorners.
EoTG:
IMO for each killed unit, the unit that killed it gets a roll. In challenges you get re-roll to wounds (but you must accept and issue).
Spawns: 3d6 Movement, 5+Reg or just give them useful marks.
Chosen? I`d get rid of them and make the models GW wielding Warriors.
Give Shaggy the Stubborn he deserves and make warshrine more useful (chariot with MV 7, 1 roll per turn without the need to dispel previous effects, or aura effects(ASF for Slaanesh, Infinite Hatred for Khorne, 5+Ward for Tzeentch and 4+ Regen for Nurgle, or just stubborn ).
Imo hellcannon and warriors are the things that don`t need fixing (except marks).
I`d give marauders I3 and thats its. Leave them be, they have 25x25mm bases.
Rework Daemon Princes and Forsaken and add some support units (or something thats not "either I get in combat with something worth points or I spend the game in 50 nightgoblins).
And gifts:
Make them gifty! Not some rubbish like WoCh book. I mean there are so many ideas and capabilities that I don`t know how they came out with this crap.
Finally:
Ex and Ch. Lord point cost down, or more hero choices, marauders, bearmen, wolfman, anything, just give this army something new that would allow you do to something with steadfast units and kill harpies/bats/swarms/fast cav/wolfs/slaves... Chaos Lord Ld10, Exalted Ld9, Sorc Lord Ld9. That also would be quite nice
P.S. Those are not all suggestions that have to be put in together. Treat them separately please :)

Dreadlordpaul
06-02-2012, 13:52
What i want to see
1 better magic defence for khorne
2 daemon prince having chaos armour standard and allowed to have gifts and magic items
3 lore of tzeench spells made more powerful
4 knights able to have a Eotgs roll and cause impact hits
5 all characters to have a inbuilt ward
6 give the chaos dragon the option to be a level 2 wizard

trikk86
06-02-2012, 14:04
Point about making Chaos Dragon cheaper or buffed: well played sir!

BigbyWolf
06-02-2012, 16:04
What i want to see
1 better magic defence for khorne

Agreed, but only in the same way that Dwarfs generate better magic resistence, and only if the army is Mono-Khorne.


2 daemon prince having chaos armour standard and allowed to have gifts and magic items

I'd rather have Chaos Armour as a gift, and have better gifts in line with the DoC gifts.


3 lore of tzeench spells made more powerful

The Lore of Tzeentch is already pretty powerful anyway. I'd rather not see it get OTT, given that a Lev 4 of Tzeentch is already a no-brainer enough for a lot of people.


4 knights able to have a Eotgs roll and cause impact hits

Yes to the EOTG roll, as they are supposed to be the Elite. No to impact hits, too many things these days are getting them, and this would simply start a trend other heavy cavalry would follow.


5 all characters to have a inbuilt ward

No, this would make them far too powerful.


6 give the chaos dragon the option to be a level 2 wizard

Why? Galrauch is a Wizard, but that's because he's possessed by a Lord of Change. Other dragons aren't (unless you go SoC), so the Chaos Dragon shouldn't be either.

trikk86
06-02-2012, 16:14
I think that Khorne units being able to channel DD would be cool.
I agree on the DP chaos armour gift
I`d rework the lore of tzeentch, remove the gateway and get rid of all the spells that don`t work on ItP.
I`d rework the EoTG in the first place. Impact hits? Don`t think so, they have 4S horsies.
Characters with an inbuilt 5++ would be ok, you want better? Get items, you want 5++, you can spend the items somewhere else. I`d give them ensorcelled weapons tho.
All other chaos dragons are related to Galrauch, I think the fluff says they`re his offspring of some sort, so lvl 2 would be really cool.

theunwantedbeing
06-02-2012, 16:28
My Wishlist:

1. Only allow marks for characters, warriors, chariots and knights.
2. Mutations for everyone (of each god)

I guess I don't want much.

Smaller changes would be things like
Sorcerers getting weapon options as well as non-mage characters
All troop weapon options available to characters (Knights have Lances, so should characters)
Thrown weapon options for Marauders (spears/axes but not bows or slings)
Extra Hand Weapons for Marauders
Flails for warriors
Morning Star option for Knights
Eye of the Gods if retained only working on Characters
Daemonic Mount options for Chariots

ElBeaver
06-02-2012, 17:08
guess it has already been mentioned, but an additional hand weapon option for marauders would be nice

Maelstorm
06-02-2012, 18:03
Just want to point out to everyone that bashes on the mark of slaanesh, that Swedens ETC-list had all troops possible with MoS. Would that be the case if it was bad? IMO it is the best mark for troops right now, and needs no fixing. The good thing if you look at it vs a "regular" ITP is that you can flee, which is huge!

I would want a remake of the forsaken, Shaggoth and ogres. Most other things are really fine. Some ranged core-scouts would be fun, but i fear they basiclly would do what horsemen does, but worse... I really donīt see the point of them, īcept for fun :D

Dreadlordpaul
06-02-2012, 18:20
i actually want gateway to stay

trikk86
06-02-2012, 18:49
Just want to point out to everyone that bashes on the mark of slaanesh, that Swedens ETC-list had all troops possible with MoS. Would that be the case if it was bad? IMO it is the best mark for troops right now, and needs no fixing. The good thing if you look at it vs a "regular" ITP is that you can flee, which is huge!

I would want a remake of the forsaken, Shaggoth and ogres. Most other things are really fine. Some ranged core-scouts would be fun, but i fear they basiclly would do what horsemen does, but worse... I really donīt see the point of them, īcept for fun :D

Nobody says the MoS is bad. But the army`s inner balance is bad and MoS in 8th got a lot less useless. Getting or not getting MoS doesnt change anything about the playstyle, nor does it affect the army in any way.Core-scouts would do more than horsemen. 10 guys could potentially have 10 javelins/short bows/throwing axes and not 5 for 70 or 75 points base.

StygianBeach
06-02-2012, 19:22
I went through the whole thread and picked out things I liked, quite a few good ideas.


Remove Hellcannon, its completely out of place.......

I agree that the Hellcannon is out of place, that is why I would like to see more Demonic warmachines. Bring on the Helltank, the Hellgolem the Hellcrab... well, more mercenary Chaos Dwarves.


I would like to see added bonus for having a single god army.

Out of all the possible changes, this is the one I would like the most. Single God armies should be able to include/summon demons. The god specific magic laws should all include a summon demon spell.



Marauders -1I, same points but great weapon and flail options increase by 1pt per model.
Chaos warriors -1I and the options to buy halberds and great weapons increased by a point for the same reasons
Marks changed to a points per model setup so bigger units will pay more than small units for them.
Eye of the gods rewards only last for one turn...

Agree.



6. Chosen Knights on daemonic mount (god specific or not)
7. Cheaper Chaos Lords
9. I liked the old MoT that made heros into sorcerers.

Agree, but I think all combat lords could do with a points drop and some sort of unit buffing ability like - My Will Be Done from - from Tomb Kings.
Maybe as someone has suggested before, units are - dedicated - to a certain god. This dedication can be free (or 1 point per model), as by itself dedications offer no bonus.
Marks would only be given to characters. The Mark gives some nice bonus to the character, and also confers a bonus to the unit the character is in, if it is dedicated to the same God.



Thrown weapon options for Marauders (spears/axes but not bows or slings)
Daemonic Mount options for Chariots

Yep, I want Axes for the Marauders on foot, to throw before they charge into combat. Also Javelins for those pesky Sabertusks!

tl;dr: Want monoGod army bonus. Summonable Demons. Better combat characters that buff units. Foot Marauders that can throw things. Points per model Marks.

Avalanche
06-02-2012, 20:06
I want hordes of chaos back.
There, I said it.
The warriors of chaos list is too mundane and two-dimensional as it stands and the demons of chaos lack choices to make an interesting army out of a single deity or even two of them.

Demgear
06-02-2012, 21:51
Mono god armies to be more feasible! Also get rid of the 3++ Ward save and maybe give Magic Resistance instead to Tzeentch.

Tygre
06-02-2012, 23:41
Give Mark of Khorne Hatred instead of Frenzy. I works for Bloodletters.

Havock
07-02-2012, 13:05
*Remove Hellcannon, its completely out of place, and add War Mammoth

What?

So we can add even more models to the 'sorry, not useable anymore but you can play it in another army'-******** ever since the split? Any more brilliant ideas? :rolleyes:

vcassano
07-02-2012, 15:13
Yeah, not quite sure why a giant daemonic cannon is out of place. How do they ever expect to besiege those cities they are always invading. The thing just needs a better model - the current one is the worst kit I have ever assembled, while also looking too static.

BigbyWolf
07-02-2012, 15:31
The Hellcannon is perfectly placed in WoC. It gives the army some ranged firepower, but also in the form of a big hulking monster.

As for the issue of having "beasts" in a Warriors army, this book is the perfect home for them, given that the books are now arranged in a geographic sense. Why would the Beastmen living in forests of the Old World (which is the direction GW have taken them) have access to Chaos Trolls, from Troll country, or Dragon Ogres? Leave them as they are, as they provide more options. Sure, I'd like to have Hordes of Chaos back, but that's not going to happen as the armies are totally different now, best just move on. Hell, when I first started my Chaos Army you didn't even have marauders.

But that’s enough of looking at out-dated army composition, time to look at actual, workable ideas.

Different marks? Possibly.
Frenzy for Khorne is still the best bet. Mono-Khorne armies should get bonuses to dispel in similar ways to dwarfs.
Nurgle, perhaps an extra wound for the characters, and fear for the units?
Slaanesh, ASF for characters, keep units the same.
Tzeentch- I like the ward save on units, would keep the bonus to cast for normal sorcerers, and allow Chaos Lords to take magic at the cost of 35 points per level, but not allow them the casting bonus.

Units of Chosen Knights as rare, mounted on marked beasts. Although highly cool for some marks (Bloodcrusher Knights, Disc Mounted Knights), it’s less so for others (Slaanesh get faster “horsies”, Nurgle get M4 chairs carried by Nurglings). So not a really workable idea, also all the options would make it impossible to be one kit, which is what GW like to do nowadays. Perhaps just simply undivided Knights on generic Daemon Steeds that can be marked as normal, but keep the generic steed.

Monsters stay as they are. Better gifts/ stats for Daemon Princes. Reintroduction of Aspiring Champions. Units of Spawn, Skirmishing Forsaken (with Chaos Armour).

Tayrod
07-02-2012, 16:06
Rulewise
- Tzeentch Lords of Chaos being mages.
- rework the mark system
- Better rules for the forsaken
- Chaos dwarves for special
- some sort of marauder huntsmen/bowmen, though I guess this is kind of a long stretch as I imagine they don't want to make any new marauder models.

Modelwise
- New dynamic warriors (yes I know, highly highly unlikely) - but we are wishlisting
- Plastic Forsaken/Chosen dual kit
- A NEW big monster
- Chariot/Altar
- Hellcannon/something else dual kit
- Something nurgle related

I dont really think Chaos needs new ogres, seeing as how you can easily convert some from Ogre Kingdoms, and I dont use dragon ogres, so honestely I dont care about them.

Hrogoff the Destructor
07-02-2012, 16:43
Yep, I want Axes for the Marauders on foot, to throw before they charge into combat. Also Javelins for those pesky Sabertusks!

I think this idea is great. Giving them axes resembling frankish throwing axes would be incredibly fun to use.

sulla
08-02-2012, 02:54
What?

So we can add even more models to the 'sorry, not useable anymore but you can play it in another army'-******** ever since the split? Any more brilliant ideas? :rolleyes:Hellcannons should stay. WoChaos should have decent siege equipment.

But it's rules are clumsy and bloated. It could easily be made into a t10 stone thrower with +1 strength, cause panic on any unit it hits, and have the profile of a daemon prince and fear in cc as well as the crew's attacks.

No monster and handler rules, no page of rules, just a simple, decent war machine.

Righthandedtwin
09-02-2012, 17:43
I want to see a general shift of the entire list. Redesigning it so that it represents more a Norscan Raiding Force as opposed to a mixed force of CW and Mara's. So you would see Chaos Armoured warriors moving from being Core to specials and all chosen would become Rare choices. It would also involve adding Marauder Chieftain as a Hero and moving Exalted up to being a cheap Lord option with the Chaos Lord becoming a "Super Heavy" style Lord choice optimised for larger scale battles but expensive for smaller games (so looking at a kitted up one being around 500-600 points like a Vampire Lord).

This shift would also force shifts tactically with a "softer" core and more durable troops becoming rarer. So a list would look like:

Lord -
Chaos Lord
Exalted Champion
Sorcerrer Lord
(+SC's)

Hero -
Shaman
Marauder Chieftain
Marauder Kinsmen
(+SC's)

Core -
Norscan Raider
Marauder Horseman
Marauder
Warhound
Kurgan Tribesmen
Hung Horsemen

Special
Chaos Warrior
Chariot
Chaos Knight
Chaos Troll
Chaos Ogre
Dragon Ogre

Rare -
Warshrine
Shaggoth
Giant
Chosen
Chosen Knight

and well you get the idea. These changes would also include a new "traits" system similar to Vampiric Powers or Big Names that the characters would gain access to called "Gifts" which you may pick up to 50/100 points of (Hero/Lord) shared with Magic items allowance, a Lord who picks 75pts or more of gifts becomes a Daemon Prince gaining (+ X WS/S/T/W/A/I), Terror, Stubborn, Fly and a 5+ ward save.

Marauder Chieftains may be accompanied by up to 2 Warhounds for +25pts per hound and may be mounted on a Palanquin for +120 points or Horse for +55 points. They are an all round combat character whose statline will be similar to that of an Orc Big Boss or Scar Veteran andcan be specialised with Gifts and Items. They can belong to a designated tribe so if they are Kurgan, Norscan or Hung they gain a specific benefit/alteration to the FoC for instance a Norscan Chieftain is needed to take Norscan Raiders though may not join a different tribes unit so no Kurgan chiefs in a Noscan Unit.

Kinsmen are the close family members of a Chieftain and carry the chiefs standard into battle, the designated BSB of the army. They have a similar statline to the MC though slightly lower I and WS, they can be mounted on a Horse and may choose a tribe like the MC however if they choose a tribe, for instance Hung, then Norscan and Kurgan can not benefit from being in range of the BSB.

Norscan Raiders are all equipped with Additional Hand Weapons and Light armour, they have the raiders special rule which means they may enter play on a 2D6 roll +turn number and are able to move during the Shooting phase, when they win a combat they may elect to "pillage" the unit for spoils and trophies and by remainining stationary for one turn they will be able to benefit from any magical items/banners for pillaged unit had.

Kurgan Tribesmen are a more sloggy unit that is more durable than the average Marauder unit but not quite as tough as the Chaos Warrior, they are designed as tar pitting type unit who are built to trudge towards the enemy, lock them into combat and hold them there till they either win or get killed off. They have +1T on the standard Mara profile and wear Light Armour and carry Kurgan Shields which offer +2 to thier armoursave unlike the usual +1 gained from carrying a shield

Hung Horsemen are more like a super-light cavalry unit designed for general peskyness running around the board march blocking and peppering enemy units with javalins and throwing axes before running away before the enemy can charge.

Chosen will drop from being unit blocks to being more "demi-heroes" who come solo and are intended to be scary Daemon Armoured guys who go around terrifying enemy units before butchering a few of them, they won't be Horde breakers but are more intended for hunting smaller heavily armoured units like Knights. Similar to a Man-eater they can be customised by choosing a gift up to X points in value and a mark.

BigbyWolf
09-02-2012, 17:48
I'd rather see the Marauders eliminated instead of having the Chaos Warriors marginalised. The Chaos Warrior has always been an iconic figure, the Marauder is a far more recent addition.

Righthandedtwin
09-02-2012, 18:04
I think totally cutting them would be a step in the wrong direction, the Mara-Warr relationship has a very dinamic feel to it, the leather and steel clad northern barbarians being lead by the daemon armoured chosen, they should play more on the Chaos Warriors being the chosen few whove survived long enough to be tougher than an Ogre's old boot and meaner than an agitated razorgor. By making them less common/populous within the army as a whole and pushing the Mara's more into being the core "bulk" of the force it helps to show how much greater the warrs are and also enables them to get a more tooled up FoC list with rules to show off this difference in station, when they get the dime a dosen feel of the entire list being made of them they don't quite strike fear into the heart of other players in the way a battery of charging razorgor chariots do or a trio of Terrorgheists swooping in does.

trikk86
09-02-2012, 18:20
I'd rather see the Marauders eliminated instead of having the Chaos Warriors marginalised. The Chaos Warrior has always been an iconic figure, the Marauder is a far more recent addition.


+1

Btw, 55 points for a hero horse? Jeeez OP ;)

theunwantedbeing
09-02-2012, 18:49
Redesigning it so that it represents more a Norscan Raiding Force as opposed to a mixed force of CW and Mara's.

What would be the point of that?

At the moment you get three build options.
Norse only
Warrior only
Norse & Warrior

All your alterations do is remove the Warrior only option, which being the coolest option seems to be to me at least, lunacy.

Righthandedtwin
09-02-2012, 19:56
Also on my list is to keep the Chaos Monster list that's currently available...even if it lacks magical protection it gives options for a player wanting a Monstrous Horde which really is invaluable....though perhaps change from

Lord-
Kholek

Hero-
Troll King

Core-
Troll
Warhound

Special-
Chaos Ogre
Dragon Ogre

Rare-
Shaggoth

Change it so that Dragon Ogres become a Core, with a Shaggoth Ancient Lord and some kind of monstrous sorceror for a Hero...or even just the Troll King again in next book. Although having Trolls become Core next ed. could work very well for people wishing to play an CMH.

Rare

Knifeparty
09-02-2012, 20:19
What I would like to see.

Marks:

Khorne: gives Hatred, for chosen it gives hatred and killing blow
Tzeentch: gives d3 re-rolls per turn to each unit, chosen get re-rolls and 5+ ward
Nurgle: gives +1 toughness, chosen get toughness and 5+ regen or cause terror
Slaanesh: gives +1 movement and initiative, chosen that and ASF

Rework magic so lore of Slaanesh actually works on more than half of the armies out there.

Khorne gets a "blood priest" or something of that nature giving them bonuses to dispelling magic

Actually decent Daemonic gifts that you might actually want to take.

No more mixing marks, Undivided lord is the only one able to take multiple marks in the army, if not then armies that contain more than 1 mark gain stupidity.

GIVE ME MY CHOSEN KNIGHTS BACK!

War Mammoth

I would also like to see 8 magic items for each god, that cannot be used by any other mark.

BigbyWolf
10-02-2012, 11:58
Also on my list is to keep the Chaos Monster list that's currently available...even if it lacks magical protection it gives options for a player wanting a Monstrous Horde which really is invaluable....though perhaps change from

Lord-
Kholek

Hero-
Troll King

Core-
Troll
Warhound

Special-
Chaos Ogre
Dragon Ogre

Rare-
Shaggoth

Change it so that Dragon Ogres become a Core, with a Shaggoth Ancient Lord and some kind of monstrous sorceror for a Hero...or even just the Troll King again in next book. Although having Trolls become Core next ed. could work very well for people wishing to play an CMH.

Rare

Daemon Prince? That's what I use in mine and he gives decent protection against magic.

Uberskooper
10-02-2012, 16:01
I want a book that ables you to field the more oldish chaos style army; with an "enemy within" kinda chaos: cultists, the old chaos thugs, shadow-taken Empire nobles and mutants.

Marks, point costs, and such... I trust the developers will make 8th edition worthy :)

This is probably one of the more interesting things said so far. It would be neat to have a more enemy-within feel to the army. Right now Chaos Warriors are like a 13-year-olds version of masculinity.

"I play 'toughest fighters' and they've got big thick shoulder plates and long hard swords! They just walk into the bad guys and then they all fall down. They're so cool!"

There isn't much subtlety to them and their evilness seems sort of cartoony. Even a chaos lord of Tzeentch, the god of subtlety and manipulation, is a big thicko that flies around on a ridiculous disk. That's scheming!

Knifeparty
10-02-2012, 22:12
This is probably one of the more interesting things said so far. It would be neat to have a more enemy-within feel to the army. Right now Chaos Warriors are like a 13-year-olds version of masculinity.

"I play 'toughest fighters' and they've got big thick shoulder plates and long hard swords! They just walk into the bad guys and then they all fall down. They're so cool!"

There isn't much subtlety to them and their evilness seems sort of cartoony. Even a chaos lord of Tzeentch, the god of subtlety and manipulation, is a big thicko that flies around on a ridiculous disk. That's scheming!


Lol, this is all very true. However an enemy within kind of army would be more of a hobby project in my mind.

After all deep down inside isn't the real reason we play WOC is to have the "toughest fighters with big swords" army. :D

Barry "the blade"
11-02-2012, 04:15
Im thinking I'd like Warriors to drop a couple points, and change to 1A. Then give them devastating charge. Has any unit gotten that rule yet?

Really though I'll be happy if the new book is on par with the other 8th books as far as internal and external ballance. I know they aren't perfect, but they have all been better so far in 8th.

Warrior of Chaos
12-02-2012, 00:04
Im thinking I'd like Warriors to drop a couple points, and change to 1A. Then give them devastating charge. Has any unit gotten that rule yet?

Really though I'll be happy if the new book is on par with the other 8th books as far as internal and external ballance. I know they aren't perfect, but they have all been better so far in 8th.

I could go for Chaos Warriors dropping to 1A but keep the same stat line otherwise. Heck you could even leave them at the same points. They tend to be pretty good as it is.

I'd like to see Marks sorted out a bit (costed per model):

Khorne: Hatred; if the army has no wizards, units with MoK channel extra dispel dice on a roll of 6 (maximum of 3 dice gained). (Monsters, Monstrous Beasts, and Monstrous Infantry get hatred and +1 STR)

Slannesh: Immune to Psychology as base (unbreakable if they have 3 or more ranks); (Monsters, Monstrous Beasts, and Monstrous Infantry get ASF in addition to Immune to Psychology)

Nurgle: +1T; (Monsters, MB, and MI get poisoned attacks in addition to +1T)

Tzh: Magic Resistance 3; units with MoT may cast a ranged magic missile 1d6 hits S4 as a bound spell (Pwr Lvl 3) range 18" once per game (no miscast or IF). (Monsters, MB and MI get MR3 and Ward Save 6+ instead of bound spell).

I'd like to see marks more flavorful and powerful (but expensive!) to encourage picking them wisely. The above listed would be kinda how I envision units with Marks.....characters would have their own benefits in addition to the above list.

Characters (in addition to the above):

Khorne: Killing Blow
Slannesh: Armor Piercing
Nurgle: +1W
Tzh: All exalted heroes and lords are level 1 wizards with access to the signature spell for lore of Tzh; all sorcerers and sorcerer lords channel on a 5+.

logan054
12-02-2012, 00:22
I want to see a general shift of the entire list. Redesigning it so that it represents more a Norscan Raiding Force as opposed to a mixed force of CW and Mara's.

You know if they did that I would hate it more than the current book, I really don't understand this obsession people have with bloody marauders, they are like flipping Goblins! sure it might be cool to have a more viable marauder just like you can play a Goblin only list with Orcs and Goblins, I can't imagine all that many Orc players would be all that impressed with Orcs becoming special? Honestly why do you people even want to paint up few hundred guys wearing jock straps, leather belts and silly hats with horns on. Might just me but I just love the look of a wall heavily armoured warriors screaming blood for the blood god.


Im thinking I'd like Warriors to drop a couple points, and change to 1A. Then give them devastating charge. Has any unit gotten that rule yet?

Or just leave them alone! nothing wrong with chaos warriors, I wouldn't mind if they dropped a few points but what is the obsession with people wanting to nerf WoC, since when was it a top tier army? if they started to steam roll every single army with 8th then yeah sure, fact is they don't


I could go for Chaos Warriors dropping to 1A but keep the same stat line otherwise. Heck you could even leave them at the same points. They tend to be pretty good as it is.

Keep them the same points but lose a attack?? why would they even be worth taking? especially if marks went to per model like was rumoured.

Warrior of Chaos
12-02-2012, 16:04
Keep them the same points but lose a attack?? why would they even be worth taking? especially if marks went to per model like was rumoured.

People complain incessantly that they are under-costed or OP....whatever. I'm just saying that with their current stat line, losing 1A while keeping the same points/remaining stats would not be a tremendous hindrance and would not be over-costed/under-costed. I'm just trying to be reasonable given I know the army and what kind of impact it would have (almost none). Sure people might have to change up some of their builds to account for any changes, but that's to be expected. One of the biggest problems I see in gaming (not just Warhammer) is this misguided concept that there should be a sacred cow. That is a horrible path to take because it can lead to stagnation. I'm all for preserving fluff /background, but a particular design for a unit type (i.e. stats / abilities) should never be set in stone to allow room for minor adjustments.


I really don't understand this obsession people have with bloody marauders, they are like flipping Goblins! sure it might be cool to have a more viable marauder just like you can play a Goblin only list with Orcs and Goblins, I can't imagine all that many Orc players would be all that impressed with Orcs becoming special? Honestly why do you people even want to paint up few hundred guys wearing jock straps, leather belts and silly hats with horns on.

Because fluff-wise the bulk of the chaos hordes are tribesmen (Kurgan, Norse, etc) or mutants. Those that have distinguished themselves become Chaos Warriors and those warriors that are truly blessed become Chosen. THEY are not the majority of the chaos army, but rather the pinnacle of what the peons can aspire to become. Perhaps marauders are like goblins (much better stats though), however I think that it is not fluff-rape to give tribesmen their due. If you love the concept of full-plate infantry stomping across the battlefield, more power to you - I love the sight myself, but I realize that it is not a accurate picture of chaos as a whole. Marauders, mutants, monsters and degenerate scum fawning for the Dark Gods favor en masse, with favored Warriors/Knights/Chosen sprinkled in leading the rabid barbarians/beasts is a more accurate picture.

Well all have our Nerd Rage moments, but I think if I had to sacrifice 1A from my warriors to get a better army overall with lots of options (fixed forsaken), fixed daemon prince, cheaper lords, cheaper monsters, all marks useful, chosen knights...etc., i'd be happy to oblige. GIVE ME: Balance & Options

Dominatrix
12-02-2012, 16:58
Because fluff-wise the bulk of the chaos hordes are tribesmen (Kurgan, Norse, etc) or mutants. Those that have distinguished themselves become Chaos Warriors and those warriors that are truly blessed become Chosen. THEY are not the majority of the chaos army, but rather the pinnacle of what the peons can aspire to become. Perhaps marauders are like goblins (much better stats though), however I think that it is not fluff-rape to give tribesmen their due. If you love the concept of full-plate infantry stomping across the battlefield, more power to you - I love the sight myself, but I realize that it is not a accurate picture of chaos as a whole. Marauders, mutants, monsters and degenerate scum fawning for the Dark Gods favor en masse, with favored Warriors/Knights/Chosen sprinkled in leading the rabid barbarians/beasts is a more accurate picture.

Well all have our Nerd Rage moments, but I think if I had to sacrifice 1A from my warriors to get a better army overall with lots of options (fixed forsaken), fixed daemon prince, cheaper lords, cheaper monsters, all marks useful, chosen knights...etc., i'd be happy to oblige. GIVE ME: Balance & Options

Please let's leave fluff arguments and justifications out of this. We all know fluff in warhammer is just dressing. It is not consistent in any way. And I would wager that a lot of people didn't start WoC to play humans on 25 mm bases. You want to play a tribe themed list? All the more power to you. Fill your list with marauders, take minimum warriors and call it a day. Why try to shove them down the throats of people?

And I would echo your request for units fixes and all the rest. I just don't see why sacrifice something that is perfectly fine just to get something that you should get anyway. Do they have to ruin warriors to fix forsaken? Is there some unspoken rule that there must be some units every edition that have to suck?

TheOneHawk
12-02-2012, 17:44
I have to wonder if some people in here have -played- warhammer. Chaos Warriors in 8th are one of the most balanced and properly costed units in the game. If you drop them to 1A (a stat that we're most certainly paying for), and leave their points the same, they are no longer balanced, and probably no longer an option. Dropping to 4 I, I could take. Dropping to 1 A would sting pretty hard as I love their elite status, but I could take it with a decent points cut.

Balance and options are paramount, of course. Moving Warriors to Special doesn't give us more options, it gives us less. Much less, actually. It forces people to take marauders, which is great if you like them. I hate them, personally. I don't care how good value for points GW marauders with MoK are, they're not the army I want to play. Marauder ranged units as special would be great, so would marauder chieftains. Those add the option of a cool norscan themed army. I'd probably never play it, but it's an option. That's a good thing. Forcing that option on us who don't want it is not a good idea.

My wishlist:

Dogres and Shaggoths being more resilient, if a bit less killy. They're immortal unless killed, and thousands of years old. They should be pretty tough to take down. Particularly Shaggoths.

Trolls are about right, I think. They should get a bit of a points increase, since they get mutant regen which is a bit of a buff, and cost the same as normal trolls.

Marauders stay about the same, 2 point greatweapons, unmarkable. They are, as stated, the masses the gods don't care about yet. Why do they bear a gods favour?

Ogres I would either drop, or chaosify them somehow. Trolls make sense, and have a chaos related rule, but Ogres have their own army, and aren't really Chaos related.

Knights maybe drop a couple points, but stay about the same. They're definitely solid. Chosen knights back please? They'd have to be bloody expensive, but I would gladly pay out the ass for Rare Chosen Knights.

Hellcannon is fine.

Bring back flayerkin please? I built models for them because I love their rules, but now they're useless.

Warriors stay virtually the same, maybe drop a point of initiative.

Marauder horsemen get a bit of a points cut, but they work as they are. Lose the marks though. Same reason as food marauders.

Marks going point per model is a must. Balance them, GW, please. There's a million options, make it work.

Bonus's for mono armies. Please. Maybe something with warshrines (Which need a complete overhaul)

I trust GW, though. I believe they won't **** up too bad.

vinny t
12-02-2012, 17:48
I think the main thing that needs to be very carefully considered are the marks. They can't be too insanly good but can't be worthless. I'm thinking something more medium strength.

Mark of Khorne (35/30)
Basic troops - Permanant Frenzy
Characters - Permanant Frenzy and the ability to channel dispel dice, if in a mixed army, on a 6, and in a mono Khorne army, on a 4+

Mark of Tzeentch (20/10 for combat heroes/20 for casters)
Basic Troops - 6+ Ward Save
Characters - 6+ Ward Save and +1 to cast (wizards only)

Mark of Nurgle (30/30 points)
Basic Troops - Causes Fear and Poisoned attacks
Characters - Causes Terror and Poisoned attacks

Mark of Slaanesh (15/35 points)
Basic Troops - M5
Characters - M5 and ASF

How about something like that?

TheOneHawk
12-02-2012, 17:52
How about MoK on characters letting them dispel like a wizard, +1/2 for heroes/lords, doesn't require it to be mono Khorne, and it won't be super useful if you're not mono Khorne, because you'll have casters that can dispel, but will help for sure if you do run mono.

Havock
12-02-2012, 18:33
Warriors losing one attack and staying at the same price would be a knee-jerk reaction to the whiners who probably don't even play the army to begin with.

Drop them to one attack? Fine, go to 12 points per model like the interim ruleset.
Or keep them as-is because warriors are probably one of the better-balanced units around.

But that does not satisfy the whiners, no, they went them to be bad and suck.
Because a chaos warrior should not be the equal of other people's elites.
Well, guess what, I started this army because I liked the tzeentch warrior mages (gone), the flexibility (gone) and the convienence of an elite low model count army (half gone with 8th ed)

I'd rather not see my army be invalidated once again. I really don't.

Magister_Ordo_Lyrae
12-02-2012, 19:15
Mostly I want a more interesting Lore of Tzeentch.

As it is now only 4 spells are even worth bothering with.

Pandaemonium doesn't really do much to some armies (maybe its just that I play against dwarves a lot) but can be absolutely devastating against others (my other regular opponent is NGs).

Treason is awesome (probably the best direct damage spell in the game right now, it scales and with all the GWs about) but can't be used against ITP units.

Gateway when it goes off (1 in 12 chance) kind of makes the game less fun (huh, well your entire unit with your general and BSB just went poof, your conceding now? well I guess that makes sense) and when you don't get that 11 or 12 it has a tendency to be underwhelming.

Flickering Flames is alright but other than trying fry regenerating monsters or take out single model units its not all that useful.

Baleful transmogrification would be cool if it became a character sniping spell, as it stands now it won't even hurt most units on average, and call to glory is just weird, I have never used that spell.

In my themed mono Tz list I have started using an unmarked Sorc lord because Heavens and Death lores are far more fun and interesting for both me and my opponent and that makes me sad.

Warrior of Chaos
12-02-2012, 20:16
Please let's leave fluff arguments and justifications out of this. We all know fluff in warhammer is just dressing. It is not consistent in any way. And I would wager that a lot of people didn't start WoC to play humans on 25 mm bases. You want to play a tribe themed list? All the more power to you.

Umm...No. The army and it's fluff are WHY I (and most others) play WoC. The Armybook should reflect the fluff as much has humanly possible. But there should be plenty of options to vary your army, how you as the player see fit, as long as it is balanced. I realize there are people out there who just want to play some broken Chosenstar w/ warshrine...etc., but the book should never cater to the whims of the powergamers over BALANCE. If GW determines warriors are fine as is....cool (as long as they are internally balanced inside their own book (and externally balanced within reason to other armybooks) so no one unit becomes some "auto-include I win" button.


Fill your list with marauders, take minimum warriors and call it a day. Why try to shove them down the throats of people?

There is no shoving involved.....I don't care what type of list you play. This discussion is about wishlisting what could be in the next armybook. You need options to make what army you want in the armybook. I'm simply saying, that I personally think, the crowd who protects the Chaos Warrior sacred cow, like a dog with a pork chop bone, need to realize that while we may or may not agree that they are OP (I'm fine with them changing or staying the same...I really don't care), we need to be more flexible in accepting change. One single unit type does not make the army what it is. I want the new Armybook to be full of wonderful units which could find their way into a game and perform on the table! I want the army to have lots of options....you want walking tanks lumbering across the battlefield (DONE), you want tribes of frothy barbarians (DONE), you want a mix of mutants and mosters led by a lord on a manticore (DONE). I'm willing to flex on what unit stats are in the army IF the outcome is a better armybook overall.


Do they have to ruin warriors to fix forsaken? Is there some unspoken rule that there must be some units every edition that have to suck?

LOL, I sure hope not. Look i'm not picking a side on this. Some people advocate changing Warriors, some don't. Some say lower their (I) or lower to 1A. Some say put them in Special choices....whatever floats GW's boat as long as the new armybook is solid! I don't want to see my fellow WoC players rant and rage themselves to a frenzy when the armybook comes out. I just suspect somewhere deep in my bones there will be adjustments to stats which trigger apocalyptic nerd rage not seen since SoC....;)

Doommasters
12-02-2012, 21:21
Internal balance is key IMO, at the moment the WoC have a nice army book but there are clearly units and options that are light years ahead of others.

Chaos lords and Exhalted Heroes need to add passive bonuses to the units they join to make them more viable. Lords and Exalteds only coffer their passive atttribute to units of the same mark.

Warriors should also have their iniative reduced to 4 but otherwise stay the same

Passive Bonuses to the unit:
Undivided
Combat Lord: +1WS +1I
Exhalted Hero: +1I

Khorne
Combat Lord: Re-rolls to hit and wound, Frenzy can't be lost (100pt Upgrade)
Exalted Hero: Re-rolls to hit (50pt Upgrade)

Nurgle
Combat Lord: +1 Toughness, Immunity to Poison and Killing blow (75pt Upgrade)
Exalted Hero: Immunity to Poison and Killing blow (25pt Upgrade)

Slannesh
Combat Lord: Cause Terror and units in base contact have -2LD (50pt Upgrade)
Exlated Hero: Cause Terror (15pt Upgrade)

Tezzentch
Lord: Unit can chanel for power dice on a 3+ (50pt Upgrade)
Hero: Unit can chanel for power dice on 5+ (20pt Upgrade)

The Marks of Chaos
Undivided: No bonus

Khorne: Unit has frenzy aslong as they win combat, they have MR2 and can chanel for dispel dice (characters joining a unit do not get an extra chanel attempt)

Nurgle: -1 to hit (melee and range)

Slannesh: ASF

Tezzentch: +1 Wizard level and +1 Ward save


OK, so we keep the themes of; Khorne being super killy, Nurgle being tough, Slannesh being about the mind and Tezzentch being magic related. Also Chaos lords and Exhalts have clear roles and provde great bonuses to the unit they join provided they have the same mark, so there will not no mixing and matching to create the most broken combo.

Other Chnages
- Marauders Great Weapons increased by 1pt
- Daemon Prince needs a total overhaul and a clear role in the army
- Chaos Warriors Initative reduced to 4
- Chosen and the Warshrine need to be re-balanced not sure the best solution but rolling constantly to get a 3+ seems silly to me.
- Forsaken need to be re-worked
- Shaggoths need a large points reduction or a buff
- Mounts need looked at points wise

Wish List
- Chosen Knights
- Warshrine Model
- Plastic Chosen
- Cultists
- Keep the fluffy SC's

zak
12-02-2012, 21:29
I agree with Warrior of Chaos. O+G's are able to field pure Goblin or pure Orc armies. I don't see why the Warriors of Chaos book can't do the same. I would like to see more variety in the book and see a change in the marks system so that they were per model rather than per unit and either limited/altered somehow on Marauders.

I think those Lord buffs are a bit too hard. The Khorne one would make them OTT in the extreme unless the points cost was horrific.

Doommasters
12-02-2012, 21:49
I agree with Warrior of Chaos. O+G's are able to field pure Goblin or pure Orc armies. I don't see why the Warriors of Chaos book can't do the same. I would like to see more variety in the book and see a change in the marks system so that they were per model rather than per unit and either limited/altered somehow on Marauders.

I think those Lord buffs are a bit too hard. The Khorne one would make them OTT in the extreme unless the points cost was horrific.

I have added some points costs, remeber that if you take a Combat lord with the Mark you are not going to have a lvl4 so IMO it is not to over the top. And it is only one unit that gets it per lord/hero.

Morkash
12-02-2012, 22:17
Honestly why do you people even want to paint up few hundred guys wearing jock straps, leather belts and silly hats with horns on.

Sorry to cut an excellent post down like this, but this quote is just straight awesome! :D ... and very true as well. :shifty:

I think that the Core section of WoC is (if you exclude marks) quite fine as it stands. Sure, Marauders could go up a point, but overall our Core section is very good. Each unit is viable and has its uses as well as its disadvantages.
I do not understand why people want the Marauder force either. I mean, you can play without Warriors even now with no problems at all occuring, both mounted and footslogging armies are possible and playable.

So why do you have the desperate urge to move CW to Special? Even fluff-wise this is nonsense. Chaos is, by its very nature, chaotic and for every Marauder tribe there is a small Warband clad in Hellforged Armour. It will be smaller naturally, but this is pretty good reflected in the point costs - 50 Marauders or 20 Warriors.
Moving CW to Special would be like moving marked units or not letting them count toward the 25%, just because fluff predicts that the bulk of the northern tribes worship Chaos Undivided. Changing their stats could be an option, but I do not see it happening to be honest. Dropping them to 1 attack would significantly reducing their apperence of the battlefield, just as next to no one (and I do not want to hear: "No, Morkash, I used CW in HoC and was very successful - I won 'ard boyz with it!11") fielded them in Hordes of Chaos.

To be honest, I only have two wishes for a new book:
1.) A general overhaul of the marks.
2.) Make Daemon Princes viable. Such awesome models (Be'lakor!) and one of my favourite fluff parts in WHF ... and yet they do not represent any of this on the field.
(See, I did not even include "make Mono God armies more viable" ... and I play Mono Nurgle!)

Kaleithel
12-02-2012, 22:30
Wishlist for WoC?
1) Variety
2) Variety
3) Variety
4) Variety
5) Variety

Oh, and variety. I'd be satisfied.

woodster17
12-02-2012, 22:31
It's interesting to see articles on wishlisting for an army such as WoC. Mainly because they are one of the more competitive armies in WFB and wishlisting revolves around improving units that you don't believe are as balanced as the better parts of the rest of the units available. Ergo, competitive builds revolve around a specific list while other units are forced to watch from the sidelines. Most gamers would love to include all of their armies models in competitive lists which clearly indicates a boost in certain stat lines or upgrades/rules for troop types. I get the genuine feeling that for armies such as WoC, DE and Skaven, new army books will, to a certain extent, nerf some of the more abusive parts of the armies and will leave players feeling annoyed. GW seem to be trying to level the playing field in 8th edition, and though I believe they have done a decent job thus far, some armies are going to be dragged down a little while others are boosted as the developers try to restore some internal balance to the game. Just believe WoC players are going to be disappointed in some areas, as much as I agree with a lot of the points made on this thread.

Doommasters
12-02-2012, 22:42
It's interesting to see articles on wishlisting for an army such as WoC. Mainly because they are one of the more competitive armies in WFB and wishlisting revolves around improving units that you don't believe are as balanced as the better parts of the rest of the units available. Ergo, competitive builds revolve around a specific list while other units are forced to watch from the sidelines. Most gamers would love to include all of their armies models in competitive lists which clearly indicates a boost in certain stat lines or upgrades/rules for troop types. I get the genuine feeling that for armies such as WoC, DE and Skaven, new army books will, to a certain extent, nerf some of the more abusive parts of the armies and will leave players feeling annoyed. GW seem to be trying to level the playing field in 8th edition, and though I believe they have done a decent job thus far, some armies are going to be dragged down a little while others are boosted as the developers try to restore some internal balance to the game. Just believe WoC players are going to be disappointed in some areas, as much as I agree with a lot of the points made on this thread.

Internal balance is worth a few nerfs to units here at there, and WoC has many underperforming units that never get taken. Kind of like the old VC, you had only a few very powerful units but it was enough to make them an easy army to win with.

You have to be crazy to play a combat lord over a lvl4 if you are being competitive, just like a Daemon prince is a points gift and it hamstrings your army.

If a unit is not being taken increasing its viability is not going to make the army brocken as you can only have X points of units. If it is so powerful then yes it will, having 10 options and all make good choices is better than having 3-4 really good ones and 6-7 that you are never going to field.

Every game against WoC is pretty much

lvl4
Exalted BSB
Eaxlated (Warmachine Hunter)/lvl2

Marauders
Warriors
Knights/Chosen

Hellcannon
Warshrine

That is pretty much it, must get really boring after ten or so games. Internal balance as much as external balance is critical to the longevity of a book, opportunity cost plays on a generals mind constantly. Why would you take Daemon Prince or a Chaos Lord when a lvl4 Sorc is miles better, you just don't feel good about taking them unless it is for pure fluff reasons.

If the Lord was equally as a good as the Sorc but in different ways that is perfect as you can only really take one in a 2500 game. Same everything else when there is cleary a unit that is significantly better than another it is difficult to take the inferior unit. you can argue not to be a power gamer, but everyone wants a fighting chance and will trend towards the better options. Making all options close in power level to its substitutes makes for a fun army to play and build.

I would love to play WoC with a Daemon prince where he can actually do something, but you can't so I play other armies instead where I can feild a wide variety of units.

TheOneHawk
12-02-2012, 22:43
We're very much in the same boat as VC, and with how successful that update was, I'm very much looking forward to this.

woodster17
12-02-2012, 23:23
Internal balance is worth a few nerfs to units here at there, and WoC has many underperforming units that never get taken. Kind of like the old VC, you had only a few very powerful units but it was enough to make them an easy army to win with.

I would love to play WoC with a Daemon prince where he can actually do something, but you can't so I play other armies instead where I can feild a wide variety of units.

I completely agree with you on pretty much all counts to be honest. I'd like to see a little more variety in tournament armies all round, but you see the same comp lists popping up all over the place. I think the general consensus everywhere is that people would, at least fluff wise, quite like to take a powerful combat lord over a Lvl 4 in many armies, but if you want to win on a regular basis it's not always or often ever viable. For me, I would love to use Hammerers a little more in my Dwarf armies to protect my combat characters. It's just something inherently Dwarven about that but Hammerers are overpriced and inefficient if you want to win. Same goes for Spearmen in HE armies, as well as large monsters like dragons with are cannon ball magnets.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a power gamer. Call me a traditionalist but I'd like for any unit or option to be taken in order to have a chance of winning (on a regular basis). I understand it's incredibly difficult to balance an army as such but it would be nice.

For Chaos wishlisting, I don't play them, but would love to see more focus on the Norscan aspects of the army. Were-kin, Norse units (beyond marauders). It becomes a little monotonous to see simply black armoured units across from you who simple march and hit you in the face. There's something a little un-chaosy about the regularity and lack of complexity in WoC tactics atm. A little more variety would be nice.

Hrogoff the Destructor
12-02-2012, 23:45
Leave warriors as they are. When I got Chaos I expected an army of mini-heroes. I'm pretty sure there was a time when all warriors had WS6!

It was sad in the last edition where they would run into a unit of goblins with their amazing 1 attack, totally wiff it (as did the goblins) then run away because the goblins had more ranks. I saw them get run down by units a third their price way too many times back then.

Other things I'd like:
-Forsaken get skirmish and models
-Something new, they're a painfully boring and static army.
-Chosen knights
-A mono berserker guy.
-Marauder hero. More berserk, less armor.

Warrior of Chaos
13-02-2012, 00:20
Things I'd loved to see fixed straight out of the gate:

1. Marks
2. Daemon Prince
3. Forsaken
4. Shaggoth
5. Points costs need to be looked at

Some adds:
5. Marauder Chariots
6. Chosen Knights
7. ** Something to skirmish

Havock
13-02-2012, 16:15
Slannesh: ASF

(...)

- Chaos Warriors Initative reduced to 4


1- OP.

2- Okay, for a price drop. The only thing an initiative drop will do is shift focus from halberds to great weapons, reducing their stats is not necessary. Yes, they are big, they also move faster than anything in that armor should move... Which is part of the charm/scare.

Warriors are not OP, anyone who thinks they are clearly don't play enough/know **** about the game.
I can say that with a straight face :)

I'd rather see Mark of Tzeentch allowing a unit to redeploy up to X inches, the stacking wardsave is fine, as long as unit wide plain 4+ (ie. 3+) wardsaves are gone. Most people don't really mind the 3+ wardsave characters, as there will be two max, and a 3+ is well within the 'you can fail'-margin. 3+ is cursed.

Lord Arkhibas
13-02-2012, 18:53
Chaos warrior stats should be changed dramatically. I4 because heavily armoured killer is not quicker than skaven, still fast enough to terrify anybody. A2 stays because every1 of them is trained killer compared to other races, same with other stats. points cost to 14 with special weapon- Mainly so Undivided is not overwhelmed by other marks. Marks should include cost for making warriors too uber.

And then i go for the marks.
Mark of khorne: Should make unit effective killing machine what isn't retreating- but is easier to kill than undivided. Perhaps Frenzy/unbreakable with heavy armour with no option for shield? because they are not using their armour properly while slashing enemy like madmen(Shield warriors are counted as thw)? expensive mark nonetheless.
Mark of Nurgle: toughness boost +1. also expensive mark.
Mark of Tzeenth: Stacking ward save is fluffy. uber ward save isn't gamebreaking, you will pay 75p for it and for one model. Eye of tzeenth removed or modified. cheapest mark.

Mark of slaneesh: This is tough one, because other marks already fulfill role of slaneesh. perhaps stubborn? naah. too good. what about +1 to armour save and may re-roll any charasteristic test they have to take, once per turn? representing better version of chaos armour for "cooler warriors", and characteristic test just to make them resistant to all kind of things. expensive still.

This would not make marks auto-include and also balance out marks pretty well. also get rid of eye of the gods system and focus on gifts of chaos; i like chaos when i can choose how i want chaos.

Mainly i hope all things in the new book have clear purpose; for example lanced knights should be worth to kill big things, and ensorc weapons for elite infantry. Things without purpose is doomed on the shelf. GW don't give lances if they are useless in any case. :wtf:

Odin
13-02-2012, 20:09
Chaos warrior stats should be changed dramatically. I4 because heavily armoured killer is not quicker than skaven, still fast enough to terrify anybody. A2 stays because every1 of them is trained killer compared to other races, same with other stats. points cost to 14 with special weapon- Mainly so Undivided is not overwhelmed by other marks. Marks should include cost for making warriors too uber.


Pretty much spot on I reckon, though GWs and halberds need to cost more than shields or 2HW.

Havock
13-02-2012, 21:04
I5 is as fast as a skaven, so that's fine with me.
Seeing as any stat reduction would be accompanied by a price reduction, that would mean I would have to buy new **** to get my army working again. I am somewhat tired of that business model.

I signed up for the 'my **** is better than yours -individually-' chaos, and several other things which are invalidated by now.
The superhuman speed part is part of the charm. Human speed would be meh. And I like my resilience versus several of those lame spells.

Dreadlordpaul
14-02-2012, 07:02
I5 is as fast as a skaven, so that's fine with me.
Seeing as any stat reduction would be accompanied by a price reduction, that would mean I would have to buy new **** to get my army working again. I am somewhat tired of that business model.

I signed up for the 'my **** is better than yours -individually-' chaos, and several other things which are invalidated by now.
The superhuman speed part is part of the charm. Human speed would be meh. And I like my resilience versus several of those lame spells.

i agree with this guy so much because this is exactly what attracted me to chaos