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Quannum
31-10-2011, 13:23
Hi all,

Something just came up that I cant resolve and I'm designing a list for a game tonight. Obviously, it will affect the army I design....

In my Ogres army, I plan to run a unit of 7 Ironguts (with a command group consisting of a Musician and Standard Bearer only). I intend to join a Slaughtermaster (Army General) and a Bruiser BSB to this unit and deploy them in a 3x3 formation.

By my understanding, I HAVE to have the unit's musician and standard bearer in the front rank, which will force one of my characters into the second rank. That's fine and all, as I am hoping to put my Slaughtermaster there as he is slightly less armoured.

My question is, is my understanding of this correct and, if so, can he still cast spells, pass on his leadership, etc. - i.e. act normally from this position?

Thanks for the help, it's never come up before...

shelfunit.
31-10-2011, 13:26
I belive the general (pun intended) concensus is that, yes he can.

Memnos
31-10-2011, 13:44
Sure he can. As a spellcaster be aware of Line of Sight restrictions and you'll be fne.

Quannum
31-10-2011, 16:13
Brilliant! Thank you for the help!

a18no
31-10-2011, 16:33
Sure he can. As a spellcaster be aware of Line of Sight restrictions and you'll be fne.

He can see what the guy in front of him can see.

Beware of the musician, more than others. If for some reason you "make way" with the slaughter, change place with the banner. The musician is the only command guy that don't work if he's not at the front rank.

Good luck

Quannum
31-10-2011, 19:54
Interesting....I wonder why it's just the musician...

Anyway, thanks guys - game went well and the (slightly beardy) tactic paid off well!

Memnos
01-11-2011, 07:06
He can see what the guy in front of him can see.

Beware of the musician, more than others. If for some reason you "make way" with the slaughter, change place with the banner. The musician is the only command guy that don't work if he's not at the front rank.

Good luck

Can you quote the page number where it says he can see what the guy in front of him can see?

'Cause I'd have thought 'True Line of Sight' would indicate that he would have to go by his True Line of Sight.

RealMikeBob
01-11-2011, 07:29
Only magic missiles and Magical vortexes need LOS. Vortexes are not usable from the second row since they must start in base contact with the castor. But magic missiles are treated "as if the wizard was firing a missile weapon". Page 31 of the BRB. And page 39 has Fire in Two Ranks details.

eron12
01-11-2011, 07:33
Interesting....I wonder why it's just the musician...

Anyway, thanks guys - game went well and the (slightly beardy) tactic paid off well!

Indeed, you would think the troops could hear a drummer in the second rank as easily as they could see a banner in the second rank.

Arijharn
01-11-2011, 09:51
This doesn't sound right to me; surely you'd have to put the Characters in the front rank (as well) unless it's physically impossible?

At least that's how I interpret it mainly from this sentence in the subsection called "Position in the Unit": 'If there is no more 'room' in the front rank, some characters will have to go in the second rank.'

In other words, there could still be some 'room.'

Akkaryn
01-11-2011, 10:46
This doesn't sound right to me; surely you'd have to put the Characters in the front rank (as well) unless it's physically impossible?

At least that's how I interpret it mainly from this sentence in the subsection called "Position in the Unit": 'If there is no more 'room' in the front rank, some characters will have to go in the second rank.'

In other words, there could still be some 'room.'

I don't have my rulebook in front of me so can't get a page number. But it says that you can never displace the unit command. So a ogre unit which is typically 3 models wide with a full command has to place characters in the second rank.

a18no
01-11-2011, 14:02
I don't have my rulebook in front of me so can't get a page number. But it says that you can never displace the unit command. So a ogre unit which is typically 3 models wide with a full command has to place characters in the second rank.

Sorry, but that is wrong. You can "displace" the command group. But you can only do that by the rule "make way" when the unit is in close combat.

Out of combat, the command group must be place at the front rank, before any characters.

TMATK
02-11-2011, 14:16
... Vortexes are not usable from the second row since they must start in base contact with the castor. ...

A vortex is usable in that case, it's just that it will also hit your own troops in the front rank.

That's probably what you meant, just wanted to be sure.

RealMikeBob
03-11-2011, 19:42
I thought you couldn't place them touching your own troops. But a quick check shows you are right. Handy to know :)

Zoolander
07-11-2011, 05:35
Wow so much misinformation here. Ok, for starters, command models MUST be in the front rank, unless they cannot physically do so (less than three models wide, for example). Characters will actually go in the second rank BEFORE command models. Yes, this does mean your 500 pt Chaos Lord will take a back seat to your musician, not the other way around. Weird, huh? (pg 97).

A wizard in the second rank can cast spells fine, abiding by two restrictions. First, he cannot cast a vortex because it must touch the forward arc base of the model, which is impossible from the second rank without touching the model in front of him. Second, as was pointed out, he may fire a magic missile just as a ranged missile attack. In other words, he may fire from the second rank, pretty much using the LOS of the model in front of him. Makes sense? No, not really, but that's the deal. (pg 31).

Second, should a musician find himself in the second rank for some strange reason, the only ability he loses is his +1 to break a tie in combat. He may still use all his other abilities, such as +1 rally attempts, quick reform, etc. The only ability that specifically states he needs to be in the front rank is the tie breaker.(pg 95).

TMATK
07-11-2011, 06:12
Check the FAQ, a wizard can place a vortex over friendly models, so he can cast a vortex from the 2nd rank.

Zoolander
07-11-2011, 06:16
Check the FAQ, a wizard can place a vortex over friendly models, so he can cast a vortex from the 2nd rank.

Hey good catch! I stand corrected. What I should have said was "will not want to..."

eron12
08-11-2011, 05:17
Hey good catch! I stand corrected. What I should have said was "will not want to..."

Who knows, maybe the guy in front of him is really annoying. After seeing what happens with a few miscasts I'm sure "Having to stand next to the wizard" becomes a regular punishment in a lot of armies.

Zoolander
09-11-2011, 09:19
Who knows, maybe the guy in front of him is really annoying. After seeing what happens with a few miscasts I'm sure "Having to stand next to the wizard" becomes a regular punishment in a lot of armies.

Seriously. That's like getting promoted in Darth Vader's Empire. <gulp>

Archon Deloth Vyrr
09-11-2011, 14:59
Wow so much misinformation here. Ok, for starters, command models MUST be in the front rank, unless they cannot physically do so (less than three models wide, for example). Characters will actually go in the second rank BEFORE command models. Yes, this does mean your 500 pt Chaos Lord will take a back seat to your musician, not the other way around. Weird, huh? (pg 97).

Sorta weird, but not problematic. Keeping Powerhouse chars in the 2nd row means you can "make way" them into combat whenever they're needed while protecting them in the 2nd rank when you don't want them fighting (such as if a Heroic Killing Blow beastie is hoping to chop your Lord's head off)

Zoolander
09-11-2011, 15:30
Sorta weird, but not problematic. Keeping Powerhouse chars in the 2nd row means you can "make way" them into combat whenever they're needed while protecting them in the 2nd rank when you don't want them fighting (such as if a Heroic Killing Blow beastie is hoping to chop your Lord's head off)

That makes sense for Skaven but not Chaos! ;)