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Skarsnik, the Lord
01-11-2011, 10:08
Hi, I have ~ 80 Orc models which have been sitting on my shelf through the entire 8th edition. Altought Night Goblins and Savage Orcs seem to be way better, I'd like to start painting the Orc models so at least they'd look nice on the shelf. ;)

Now I have a problem... Which is the best equipment for the Orcs? Someday I migt go crazy and use the Orcs in some games or possibly in our gaming group's huge team games. But anyway, which is the best equipment for the Orcs; spears, additional hand weapons, shields or bows?

Shields seem to be worthless IMO as Night Goblins do holding so much better and spears and additional hand weapons are quite meh... Savage Orcs, Black Orcs and Trolls do the killing better. So are the bows way to go? At least I voted for them.

Discuss!

- Cheers, Skarsnik.

Oogie boogie boss
01-11-2011, 13:43
AHW. In 8th ed. it's all about combat attrition, and killing more is better than saving a few.

Chicago Slim
01-11-2011, 14:37
Although I voted Bows!, I actually mostly agree with OBB... The thing is, though, that they each provide for different roles. Arrer Boyz (of which I have 60, because of the particular theme of my army) don't shoot that well, but they're very flexible, versatile utility players, who can surprise some opponents by stepping into roles they're not expecting (whoa! That unit of 12-15 archers just flank-charged me! Whoops!)

But Boyz with shields make a particularly good anvil, with the 5+/6+ save (which is almost 3 times better than the base 6+ for light armor alone). If you're looking to put together an anvil that'll hold up through opposing combat attrition, while you get your flank charges in, then shields is the way to go.

On the gripping hand, twin choppas gives you an extra 5-6 attacks every round, including that crucial first round, when you've got the strength bonus, which will help you chew through an extra model or two (more if you're up against something weedy).

The only thing I wouldn't take is spears: the only advantage they have over twin choppas is the ability to also take a shield, but that's (a) expensive and (b) still not as good as just taking the shield alone (no parry save). Spears extra ranks don't fight when you charge, and you're probably going to want to be charging a lot...

Malorian
01-11-2011, 16:34
AHW. In 8th ed. it's all about combat attrition, and killing more is better than saving a few.

This.


There is some worth to bows, but overall once you get into horde on horde combats you need to kill more IN combat to win.

Chicago Slim
01-11-2011, 21:16
I'm not disagreeing with the basic premise-- but it's worth noting that denying wounds against is about as good as generating wounds for (in that you get to win, largely, by having equal or greater ranks while also winning combat): killing more of his guys, versus keeping more of yours, is about a wash, right?

Consider Boyz vs. Marauders with flails, both in hordes. **WARNING: MATHHAMMER!!** Round 1, the Marauders generate 31 attacks, for 20.7 hits and 13.8 wounds. Orcs with twin choppas take all of them, and return with 41 attacks for 20.5 hits and 13.8 wounds (all taken).

Round 1, Orcs with shields take 11.5 of those wounds, and return 10 fewer attacks, generating just 10.5 attacks. Slightly less good on round one, against a S5 opponent... but on Round 2:

Marauders push out 31 attacks for 20.7 hits and just 6.9 wounds, with a 6+ save (for 5.7 unsaved wounds) against the twin-choppas. Orcs with twin choppas now return 41 attacks, netting 10.4 wounds (which might be 8.8 unsaved, if the marauders have light armor for some reason...) Probably leading by about 4-5 kills per round (10.4-5.7=4.7), which means it'll probably take a couple of rounds to churn through enough to break Steadfast (assuming both started at the same 50 or 60 models), at which point you'll win by a few points, and probably break him.

Versus shieldboyz, the marauders do the same 6.9 wounds, but we now save 44% of them (5+/6+), for just 3.8 wounds taken. Coming back, it's 31 attacks for 15.5 hits, and 7.9 wounds (6.7 if he has armor). Now you're up 4-5 kills per round (7.9-3.8=4.1), same as before (though, admittedly, you have some deficit to overcome, from Round 1).

That's about the most skewed possible scenario, being horde-on-horde, versus unarmored T3 opponents and armor-burning strength on round one, and it's pretty nearly a wash. Put them in a bus, where the twin choppas only gain you 5 more attacks, or fighting against a bus (where only 6 of your 10-wide horde can't all get in, against 20mm 5-wide), and it's definitely tipped in favor of the shields.

As I say, though, I don't think that either option (shields or twin choppas) is an "always right" thing. Different units can and should have different roles in your army, and you need to decide if you're going to use these Boyz as anvils, or as hammers...

russellmoo
01-11-2011, 21:22
I voted add'l hand weapon- but you could go with arrer boyz as well-

maybe make 50 add'l hand weapon, and 30 with bows

Malorian
01-11-2011, 21:34
you need to decide if you're going to use these Boyz as anvils, or as hammers...

And if it's as an anvil you need to slap yourself and get some night goblins.

TsukeFox
01-11-2011, 21:44
And if it's as an anvil you need to slap yourself and get some night goblins.

Ha-! Spoken like a true War Boss

If only bows were choppas-but a friend said that arrer boyz help him fill his core when he wants flavor

Okuto
02-11-2011, 03:27
Why isn't nothing on the polls......when my orcs go to war it's

"Oi! 'eres tis pointy thingy 'nd a shirt nows get ova tere 'nd stick dem boyz wit da pointy end, no git, drop da shield tats fer tos pansy gobbos, pointy choppas?! Wat make youz so 'pecials, drop tat git now take tis'ere choppa 'nd get um!"

In my 11 years of playing greenskins I've always been of the opinion more boyz vs toys thus my orcs just get the standard choppa and the t-shirt on his back

Though shamefully I have to admit tos night gobbos are way better....

Chicago Slim
02-11-2011, 03:45
Problem with Night Goblins as an anvil is that you have to load them up with *serious* leadership support-- Steadfast on a 5 is nearly useless. Boyz with no leadership at all stay stuck in about 60% of the time (though I'm more likely to drop a Black Orc Big Boss in them, for the Quell and to raise them to over 70% on Panic and Steadfast-- but, sometimes he'll get killed...)

The way to make Boyz better than Night Goblins is to equip them properly... :)

Malorian
02-11-2011, 21:20
Problem with Night Goblins as an anvil is that you have to load them up with *serious* leadership support

You mean like that general that you are FORCED to take?

Or that BSB that you would be a fool not to take?