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marinesunderthemountain
01-11-2011, 23:08
I'd just like to share a short story with the community.

One of my work-mates started showing an interest in the hobby, and over a couple of months we talked about the 40k universe, the background, and even put together some fluff behind what might become his first space marine army.

I took him down to the local store and he spent 5 minutes just staring into one of the glass cabinets before I could drag him away, and we played a 500 point demo game which he really enjoyed.

He bought a codex and started planning a 1500 point army space marine army.

A couple of months later and he has no intention of starting his army and I can kind of understand why. He added up how much his first army would cost to buy on the GW website and it came to £250!! For space marines... supposedly one of the cheaper armies to put together. I mean if he'd picked tyranids or orks....

Anyway, he baulked at the price. I asked him what it was and he said he didn't want to spend that much on principle because it would feel like he was getting ripped off.

For the vets, I guess the price rise is an annoyance to put up with, but I think for new players it might actually be a deal breaker; definitely for my mate, but maybe for others too.

Freakiq
01-11-2011, 23:34
A couple of months later and he has no intention of starting his army and I can kind of understand why. He added up how much his first army would cost to buy on the GW website and it came to £250!! For space marines... supposedly one of the cheaper armies to put together. I mean if he'd picked tyranids or orks....

Anyway, he baulked at the price. I asked him what it was and he said he didn't want to spend that much on principle because it would feel like he was getting ripped off.


Maybe he should look at the new Space Marine Megaforce, £130 and just under 1500 points.

Order from an online retailer like Maelstrom (http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=gwk_40k_spm_ess_211_001) and you can get it for just £117.

Max Jet
01-11-2011, 23:35
Back then when I started I wish I would have been that wise.

I wished someone would have shown me the non high street advertised alternatives. Maybe he wants too?

Ravenous
01-11-2011, 23:41
Pssssssh, what other hobbies does your friend have? I bet he blows more on fast food and booze then he would on warhammer.

GawFang
01-11-2011, 23:51
I agree with Ravenous £250 might seem a lot but compared to a lot of other things its really not that bad.

My other hobby is cycling and its quite easy to spend that sort of money on a wheel or a chainset. Also if you do a fair bit of cycling you may end up having to replace these after a year or two.

colonel kane trine
02-11-2011, 00:12
Yep £250 isnt that much to be honest.
My wife could blow that on an outfit and shoes!
Ive got mates who blow that on a full weekend of partying which to be honest I thinks a total waste of money
Id rather have a pile of cool models than p*ss the money up the wall like a few people I know

In the great range of hobbies out there I think warhammers not too expensive. It isnt cheap but isnt extreme

ORKY ARD BOYZ
02-11-2011, 00:51
Yep £250 isnt that much to be honest.
My wife could blow that on an outfit and shoes!
Ive got mates who blow that on a full weekend of partying which to be honest I thinks a total waste of money
Id rather have a pile of cool models than p*ss the money up the wall like a few people I know

In the great range of hobbies out there I think warhammers not too expensive. It isnt cheap but isnt extreme

I think it's more the perception of the cost. People have a price in their head of the cost of clothes or supplying parties, as well as 'toys'. Most people know it's going to be expensive to get a suit, and most people think that 'toys' should cost a lot less, so they get a greater shock when they first see the price on GW shelves. You can make the differentiation that they're detailed models that are time consuming to build, but I have friends who only see the price tag, think expensive toys and are driven away. I don't blame them either, it's getting pretty hard for me to justify buying retail anymore.

Omniassiah
02-11-2011, 00:57
Yep £250 isnt that much to be honest.
My wife could blow that on an outfit and shoes!
Ive got mates who blow that on a full weekend of partying which to be honest I thinks a total waste of money
Id rather have a pile of cool models than p*ss the money up the wall like a few people I know

In the great range of hobbies out there I think warhammers not too expensive. It isnt cheap but isnt extreme

£250 could get me a sizable FoW army, a malifaux force, Enough stuff to play Battletech for the rest of my life, and probably some paints all at once. Or I could get several war gaming Monsters for that with play times upwards of 125 Hours each run. GW may not be an expensive hobby compared to all hobbies but in the War-gaming world it is at the top of the extremely expensive side.

chamelion 6
02-11-2011, 00:59
When I can buy a nice guitar for the price of a new army, then the cost of those little figures is too high for me.

I used to support multiple armies, now I have 1 WFB army and 2 40k armies... Me and my gaming group don't plan to go to either WFB 9th or 40k 6th because of the cost.

I enjoy the game but I enjoy other persuits too and the cost of GW has made me choose between them. So I've decided to just be happy with what I have.

IJW
02-11-2011, 01:16
By pure coincidence today I was working out how much it would cost to be every available model for an Infinity faction. It came out at £500 for about 60 models including robots and a Dreadnought-size model.

Sounds a lot until you realise that it's 1750+ points for a game that is normally played at 250-300 points, or enough models to have seven different army lists with no duplicates...

TheLionReturns
02-11-2011, 01:21
I think it is a mistake to look at what we, as existing customers, feel is a reasonable price and expect potential customers to feel the same. We may look at that £250, think how much golf equipment we could get and think we have made the right choice.

If you are a golfer and that £250 is coming out of your golfing budget (lets be fair not many of us are getting pay rises at the moment) you may feel differently. New customers are not yet hooked on plastic crack, but are hooked on their existing hobbies and have a different price threshold to us.

Personally I think GW need an entry level ruleset to allow a game with a single squad, or at least very few.

Chaos and Evil
02-11-2011, 08:23
Yep £250 isnt that much to be honest.
Add to that another £100 for hobby supplies like glue, spraypaint, paint, washes, paint brushes, static grass, etc. since this guy is looking to start from new, without any of the existing hobby gear you already have.
Then add another £35 for a core rulebook. Plus the £20 he's already spent on a Codex.

So the true cost of starting 40k is more like £400 than £250, and that's without getting any terrain...

£400 is a lot of cash to spend on a hobby that you've no idea whether or not you'll enjoy ahead of time.

GomezAddams
02-11-2011, 08:42
My entire malifaux dream list runs to about £600 and has 95% of the current range on it...

The average malifaux game will cost you less then £50 depending on the faction you go for.

You also have to remember that a 1500pts army is a time sink, and a huge one. Most people are going to want to assemble them correctly, paint them up well etc and all that takes time. Whilst non of the kits are that complex and these days I could probably clean up and assemble a squad of marines in my sleep, that doesn't mean someone new will find it easy. Plastics also less forgiving to over-filling and glueing errors.

Malifaux or infinity bud - he'll have a lot more fun and once he's in the wargaming hobby, he might consider warhammer as a better investment.

blackcherry
02-11-2011, 08:47
It is rather intimidating to buy all that stuff in one go. How about getting your mate to buy a few squads or characters he likes and try out the 40k in 40 minutes rules (which has limits on what you can take and a 400-500pts limit). That way he doesn't have to drop all that cash at once and he can see if he likes the game enough to carry on, whilst giving you the fun of being able to play with a friend.

It may also help with his price problems and give him time to adjust to the entry cost.

MLP
02-11-2011, 08:50
I think what a lot of people are missing is that most people in the first few years of the hobby don't bulk buy their army!

I've never started an army buying 1500 pts and all the paints and gear you need. When I started I bought a couple of boxes a month and borrowed paints and materials. Then when I had more models assembled I bought the starter paint sets and painted them just with that.

My point is you don't need £400 of stuff to start the hobby. You can buy a £20 squad and borrow some glue and use your mates paints. before you know it's next month and you can afford another box and so on.

It's a great hobby it shouldn't be rushed.

lanrak
02-11-2011, 08:56
HI all.
I belive that GW plc is slowly pricing themselves out of the market.

More people are aware of 'games of toy soldiers' that require much less in the way of investment to start.

IF the games start at a skirmish level ,and then the system allowed players to expand and use larger armies.This allows more players to find the level they are more comfortable with.

Most other games allow players to get a complete 'starter force' for less than £100.(Some have FULL GAME starter sets for the £50 to £100 mark.)

GW plc is in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to children.

But thier 'toy soldiers' are more suitable for mature (and rich) gamers/collectors NOT children!

Undead Army from Mantic games £99.99.
Mounted Metal Vampire.
10 resin elite skeleton cavalry .
40 skeletons.
20 elite skeletons knights on foot.
40 zombies.
30 ghouls
(And a Catapult.)

Rule book and army lists included.

For £100 at GW you get a rule book, an army book, 10 skeletons and 20 zombies.

And people wonder why new players see GW plc as overpriced?

GomezAddams
02-11-2011, 09:28
GW plc is in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to children.

Because there the best market short term. Lots of part time parents thinking its the right thing to do sadly.

Aye but in Mantics case your paying for what your getting. Its all down to personal taste but the repetitive nature of the minis wouldn't put a beginner off initially, but it'd hold back repeat purchases. And to be honest, Mantic strike me more as aiming for children then GW are because of the nature of the starter sets and minis. Theres a definate lean towards fantasy as opposed to grimdarkness of GW.

And you still have to spend well over £100 to get a game worthy army.

Even buying slowly, a box set at a time, the point still stands with regards to Malifaux and infinity. They both offer a sizeable, playable force straight off the bat. The Lady justice set costs the same as a tactical squad (the cheapest starter is £17.10).

Sadly, GW are starting to price themselves out of the market. I would love to build a space marine force, but I've done the math and I know full well which I'll get more enjoyment from.

Goat of Yuggoth
02-11-2011, 09:34
I started off with just painting, bought models only to paint, and once I had painted them a couple of times, bought more. On a tight budget.

Then I started buying armies, and it did cost me an arm and a leg in total, but I bought them only when I had extra cash. Made me think more of army choices too! And converting somethings from plastic bits (numerous characters and whatnot). The process has been most helpful to my hobby.

I'd suggest that christmas deal, too, unless his budget is really uptight. It might sound much, but in the end, you'll be using the same models for years! The price is high only if you don't use them much. If you play 25 games a year for three years (and that's not alot), even that 250 quid is translated into 3 quids/game... Not that much if you ask me...

Cheers,
Goat

Freakiq
02-11-2011, 09:41
HI all.
Undead Army from Mantic games £99.99.
Mounted Metal Vampire.
10 resin elite skeleton cavalry .
40 skeletons.
20 elite skeletons knights on foot.
40 zombies.
30 ghouls
(And a Catapult.)

Rule book and army lists included.

For £100 at GW you get a rule book, an army book, 10 skeletons and 20 zombies.

And people wonder why new players see GW plc as overpriced?

£123 gives you:

2 rulebooks
2 sets of dice
2 sets of templates

2 complete armies containing:

2 High Elf Princes on Griffons
2 High Elf Mages,
20 High Elf Lothern Sea Guard
20 High Elf Sword Masters of Hoeth
10 Ellyrian Reavers

2 Skaven Warlords
2 Skaven Warlock Engineer
80 Skaven Clanrats
2 Skaven Master Moulders
4 Skaven Rat Ogres
2 Skaven Warpfire Thrower
2 Skaven Poisoned Wind Mortars

For a 23% price increase you get a whole other army.
Split the cost with a friend and you only pay £61,50 for an entire army. ;)

Almost half as cheap as your Mantic example and he's far more likely to find an opponent.

shelfunit.
02-11-2011, 09:50
Other than the fact that you need 2 army books (+ £40) and the high elf army is not "legal".....and what if you don't like High elves or skaven?

jack da greenskin
02-11-2011, 10:05
2 High Elf Princes on Griffons
2 High Elf Mages,
20 High Elf Lothern Sea Guard
20 High Elf Sword Masters of Hoeth
10 Ellyrian Reavers


50 models does not an army make IMO.

Rosstifer
02-11-2011, 10:16
50 models does not an army make IMO.

Ogre Kingdoms beg to differ.



:D



Sorry, couldn't help it.

Freakiq
02-11-2011, 10:49
50 models does not an army make IMO.

Then don't play an elite army. :rolleyes:

yabbadabba
02-11-2011, 10:54
This is an old argument, as old as GW, and has no exactly right answers to be honest. It is also laden with misconceptions from the off.

But I suppose that's why a site like Warseer exists, because there is no such thing as a consensus in this community.

tu33y
02-11-2011, 11:35
and cue wintermute.

which is a shame, as i think there are, as usual, some valid points being made that will of course, like everything else, get swallowed up in the GW pricing thread.

the cost of a new army puts veterans off too... iv had the urge to do a drop podding Marine force for ages but just cant justify it...

colonel kane trine
02-11-2011, 12:08
I guess its an argument with good points on both sides.

I think your mate should look for assault on black reach marines on ebay and play a few games with that. Then if its the hobby for him he could set a £25 a month budget or something.
Your money can go far in this hobby if your patient with ebay and forums aswell as buying from discount online stores

Another thing I noticed is that everyone always seems to be selling something. Not everyone has a spare £250+ to drop on a new army when shiny toy syndrome hits. So for some people its an endless cycle of buy new sell old.
With patience that can be your opportunity.

For example tyranids suck but I love them so currently I managed to get a 2k army for £30 out of my pocket. The joys of ebay...

Zond
02-11-2011, 15:10
I think there's a few problems with the price of a first army. There's a massive disconcert between a legal, playable first army and the 2000-3000 games (forgive me if my points levels are wildy off) which display all the fun toys. The draw of the game, both fantastical and space fantastical, is large forces duking it out. It can take a long time to get there from your initial HQ and two Troop choices for example. Whilst you could easily play the game and have a legal force for a similar amount as starting one of the many fine skirmish games out there, I think (and this is pure speculation) a lot of potential customers either feel frustrated with the rules at that small a points level, or simply don't see that as a valid option and only field an army with all the bells and whistles, resulting in this feeling of a high start up cost. It feels like GW needs a more basic, or smaller scale intro game.

I think the other cost problem is time. Using the example of golf earlier (which isn't perfect or fair), I know that I could go down to a local golf club or go down the harbour to the driving range, explain that I'm new and would like to try golf. I know both would be more than accomodating and show me some basics. If I like it I buy in, if I don't, well I lost a few hours and got some exercise. With Warhammer, and indeed all wargames, aside from demo games in store, there's not a lot a person can do when they're sitting with a pile of figures and decide it's too complicated or time consuming. You essentially have to pay in first to find out the time requirement needed. A good community or clear communication can alleviate this problem, giving someone a base of models to borrow or simply telling them that it may take some time to get the hobby part down. I've never heard of the latter happening in particular.

Alas, however, there's no real way to alleviate those problems. The hobby is what it is, and people either enjoy it or don't, and I don't think GW could ever drop prices dramatically across the board in order to entice new customers. Meh, it's just my random musings.

NecronBob
02-11-2011, 17:21
I think the real problem is with new players who are brought into the hobby by veteran players.

When I started, my friend and I split the Ork/Space Marine starter box and played out of that (2E). I don't remember how many points it was, but it wasn't many (like 2 squads of marines vs. orks and gretchen). Slowly, the two of us picked up a unit or character here and there. We were making reasonable investments each month (and we were young so we couldn't have purchased a full army if we had wanted to).

However, a veteran is gung-ho to play 2500 point games because smaller games aren't as fun (whether that is true or not). That's where the problem is for the new player. If the veteran would say, "Hey let's start at 500 points," a Island of Blood box could suffice.

stroller
02-11-2011, 19:20
Maybe the key point here is that your friend felt "ripped off". As other posters have noted, there are cheaper ways. Maybe, for him, not starting is the right answer.

In a forum on comparing the costs of toy trains to other hobbies I found this:
The main point is that when it comes to cost we all find the money for the things we enjoy or find a way to do them without breaking the bank.

I don't think startup costs are that bad, considering the value I get. Your mileage may vary. For some, it will be too much. Others will spend a lot more. The prices will drive some away. My first spend was the 3rd edition box set, when it was new. I'm still using all of the figures and buildings, though the trees have bitten the dust. The rulebook sits on a shelf. I've spent more than £500 since then (probably by a factor of 10 or more) but I get my money's WORTH. Of course, he could spend that £500 on a round of 4 pints, once a week, or any of the other permutations from golf to cycling to gym to toy trains. It's a luxury, niche, nonessential purchase. The price might scare off some adults, but a startup price of £61.50 (£60 in round figures) is not going to scare off little johnny.

eron12
02-11-2011, 19:28
I think what a lot of people are missing is that most people in the first few years of the hobby don't bulk buy their army!

I've never started an army buying 1500 pts and all the paints and gear you need. When I started I bought a couple of boxes a month and borrowed paints and materials. Then when I had more models assembled I bought the starter paint sets and painted them just with that.

My point is you don't need £400 of stuff to start the hobby. You can buy a £20 squad and borrow some glue and use your mates paints. before you know it's next month and you can afford another box and so on.

It's a great hobby it shouldn't be rushed.

What if the person doesn't want to wait six months or a year before playing games? I think the buying as you go works well once you have enough to actually do something, but before that it's a problem.

SotF
02-11-2011, 19:38
A rather cheap option for space marines compared to the 250 is to buy Assault on Black Reach and Battle for Macragge.

Easy E
02-11-2011, 20:30
First army and noobs?

Heck, it drove me off regular 40K.

Howevr, I don't begrudge GW their game. I was mad for a while, but then I just shrugged my shoulders and started doing something else.

ColShaw
02-11-2011, 20:36
If I didn't already have several GW armies, I wouldn't start the hobby now. Being able to spread my gaming budget over the course of several months for a given project is the only way their pricing is bearable.

IJW
02-11-2011, 20:51
When I started, my friend and I split the Ork/Space Marine starter box and played out of that (2E). I don't remember how many points it was, but it wasn't many (like 2 squads of marines vs. orks and gretchen).
To be fair, 2nd edition armies generally had much lower model counts. Two squads of Marines, a Dreadnought and a character or two could be a full army.

chamelion 6
02-11-2011, 20:57
Depends on which game really. For WFB I admit, I like big armies and lots of units and minis... 2500pts and up.

For 40k I used to be really entrenched in the 1500pts and up mindset, but I have to admit that now that I've played it smaller, I really prefer 40k at 1000pts or less... 750, for me, yielding the best games.

Troops become more dominant and elites, fast attack, and heavies, become more unique and specialized. They can sway the game massivly, but they no longer overwhelm it. You have to commit them carefully because you no longer have a lot of them. And on an average sized game table there is a lot of room to manuever and develop tactical ideas without getting blasted by heavy weapons fire every turn. The game becomes much more dynamic...

I think 40k actually works much better with fewer points...

paddyalexander
02-11-2011, 21:05
I think the problem that gwPLC faces with their games is the precieved size of the standard game by the community and expounded by their rule books to get a true experience of the game. A new player buying a unit or character a week will feel like they won't be able to play a proper game of WHFB or 40k for months if collecting on a budget.

40k in 40 minutes/Combat Patrol and its WHFB equalivent will allow them to play earlier but is a different experience from playing a full sized game.

This is not true of many other games systems, that scale well between small and large model count games and offer a starter level experience representitive of the full system.

Were this is harmfull to the wargaming hobby is that gwPLC is currently the most visable representitive of the hobby and unfortunatly many people who might have taken up wargaming as a hobby have been discouraged by the "gwPLC _The_Hobby_TM" package, not being aware that there are many other games systems out there that are far easier to enter the hobby with.

Misfratz
02-11-2011, 21:50
...his first army would cost to buy on the GW website and it came to £250!!Would your story have ended any differently if the price had been £200 or £150?

It's still a lot of money to spend in one go on something where he might give up on putting them together one-tenth of the way through.

Surely the best way to start is with the starter paint set that comes with some marines. One can then find out if there's any chance you would paint an entire army. If still keen then a single additional tactical marine box provides enough models to play some small-scale games, if you are willing to snead (ie make-up as you go along) about with the rules. And so on.

It's a problem for GW if peoplethink they have to buys whole army in order to start. They should be seeking to draw people in with a smaller start.

eron12
02-11-2011, 22:20
Surely the best way to start is with the starter paint set that comes with some marines. One can then find out if there's any chance you would paint an entire army.

Painting, while nice, is not required to play the game. I think it is more important to find out of a person likes the game and enjoys the way their chosen force plays said game, than to find out if they like painting.

Goat of Yuggoth
02-11-2011, 23:28
Painting, while nice, is not required to play the game. I think it is more important to find out of a person likes the game and enjoys the way their chosen force plays said game, than to find out if they like painting.

I disagree. The game is about miniatures, and GW emphasize on that aspect as much as the games. The models are not just gamepieces, and the game is not just complicated chess.

The best of both worlds would be nice. If you, OP, have two or more armies, go ahead and demo him a couple of times. Similarly, if you have spare minis, let him try out painting. If you don't have two armies, take him to a store for a demo. If you don't have spare minis, persuade him to buy one metal character (the finecast road is not the way to go for beginners), or a pack of three marines, and then he can just lend your paints/brushes/advice to paint it. If he still thinks that he's getting ripped off, it's not the hobby for him. I did this to a friend and he now is a wargamer too! Not a fully grown plast-addict, due to his mistress, but getting there ;)

And go ahead and mention that little by little aspect. Every hobby is expensive if you plan on getting everything at one go.

Cheers.
Goat

Etienne de Beaugard
03-11-2011, 02:53
GW pricing is at the upper end of the gaming miniatures market. That said, the £250 initial army does not seem a reasonable way to start.

I did some checking, and you can get 1300 points of space marines on the table for £140 GW retail.
Assault on Black Reach, a battle force, and the 40k paint set gets you an HQ, three tactical squads, termis, a deadnaught, scouts and an assault squad. You also get the main rulebook, templates and enough paints to get started on marines. (note: I'm assuming the original poster's friend, who already shelled out for the marine codex)

Omniassiah
03-11-2011, 04:01
I disagree. The game is about miniatures, and GW emphasize on that aspect as much as the games. The models are not just gamepieces, and the game is not just complicated chess.

The best of both worlds would be nice. If you, OP, have two or more armies, go ahead and demo him a couple of times. Similarly, if you have spare minis, let him try out painting. If you don't have two armies, take him to a store for a demo. If you don't have spare minis, persuade him to buy one metal character (the finecast road is not the way to go for beginners), or a pack of three marines, and then he can just lend your paints/brushes/advice to paint it. If he still thinks that he's getting ripped off, it's not the hobby for him. I did this to a friend and he now is a wargamer too! Not a fully grown plast-addict, due to his mistress, but getting there ;)

And go ahead and mention that little by little aspect. Every hobby is expensive if you plan on getting everything at one go.

Cheers.
Goat

If a person is looking at dropping money for a full fledged army off the start, then painting is probably at least a secondary concern. I can play one of my miniature games for the rest of my life and not paint or convert a single model and I'd not care(in fact I'd probably be happier) . Now, guessing by your response I would say that Painting and Modelling aspect is much higher of importance to you then to me. While neither of us are "right" it is key to remember that not everyone wants to enjoy all aspects of the hobby.

somebody that is into it to paint won't be concerned they'll be the ones that will buy a box paint it and then come back to buy another one. Then you'll have those that want to start playing regular sized games(which is almost a must if your joining a group that regularly attends events at certain points levels), and well at that point your choices start becoming either restrictive and expensive or just very expensive in the grand scheme of things. Sure you can save some money and go the SM starter set route, unless you look around see the other 17 SM armies and want to do something different, god forbid you take a fancy to a horde army for painting or gaming reasons. I think for one of the lower model count IG armies it still came out around $4-500 US for a 1500 point list.

Hicks
03-11-2011, 04:41
Price is definitely the deal breaker amongst people I know. Newbies and players of other wargames generaly like the models and fluff, but the the prices and increasingly high numbers of miniatures you need for a decent army turn most down.

Liber
03-11-2011, 08:33
Hopefully i'm not the first to say this (can't be bothered to read the thread) but if money is an issue...just don't buy everything at once. Heck, IMO even if you have more money than you know what to do with it, you should still build up armies slowly, as it leads to better painting (or at least a painted army - the main reason you see so many unpainted armies is people buy 150 minis and then realize the gargantuan task that lies ahead, and just feel hopeless about it, and never get it done)


Even the most broke person can afford to play this game, just ration what you buy as much as possible...On the extreme you could make $40 worth of purchases every few months, and still have an army within the year.

Not to mention Ebay and discount stores.

That said, of course GW should do much much more to lower the entry cost, and avoid the ridiculous prices that cause sticker shock, turning people off from the hobby immediately ($40 for a single finecast Ogre mini - I'm looking at you!!) :/

paddyalexander
03-11-2011, 09:00
No offence liber but if you can't be bothered to read the thread before posting then don't because you were well off the mark. The issue isn't that new people can't afford to get into the wargaming hobby, it is that with little to no experience of it they are required to invest quite a large sum of money just to be able to play a "standard" sized gwPLC game and to many people that would have otherwise joined the wargaming hobby and can afford to, that is a pretty big road block to entry.

It isn't the expence of buying everything at once, but the over all cost to actualy get a playable force onto a table. It does not leave a possitive impression with a new player when they are told that the only affordable way to get minitures is the second-hand market. Online discounters are a limited option thanks to gwPLCs' international trade embargo and a 10% - 20% discount on a price that a new person feels is a rip off is still a rip off.

TywinLannister
03-11-2011, 09:19
I play mantic undead as vampire counts with a few character models thrown in. I've spent less than £150 on it and its 2500 points, this includes book and supplies (however i already had the 8th ed mini rulebook)

Maybe give Warpath a year or so to take off, those forge fathers could easy pass as space marines, and the marauders would get you a sizable ork army for cheap (wish i'd waited, but i do love my foot slogging Ork horde!)

yabbadabba
03-11-2011, 09:26
The issue isn't that new people can't afford to get into the wargaming hobby, it is that with little to no experience of it they are required to invest quite a large sum of money just to be able to play a "standard" sized gwPLC game and to many people that would have otherwise joined the wargaming hobby and can afford to, that is a pretty big road block to entry. I really, really disagree with this. I think this is more an issue with Vets and how they interact with GW and their mates joining the hobby. And I'll say why.

I spent a fair amount of time in GWs retail chain and I never, ever once recommended that anyone but a Veteran start an army off in one lump. Its ridiculous as it allows almost no room for any kind of experimentation and always leaves a a lasting legacy of disappointment. With every game, army and unit allowing so much variation to tie someone in so early to a restrictive army list without them even knowing the game, and therefore how they want to play, is irresponsible. When you add in that sinking feeling when you realise that you are not a Michelangelo of the miniature painting world and you are looking at a huge pile of stuff to paint, all in all its a terrible approach to take.

A more than reasonable game can be played, quickly and simply, with a character and two troop choices. Yes its boring for Vets but this isn't about them, its about people with little or no idea what they are doing. The newbie will find it exciting, but limiting and with the right advice will crack on with the painting and gaming so they can get their next units, now much better informed on how they like to play and what they like the look of next.

There is a big difference between GWs marketing to maiximise their sales through an aspirational approach, and the reality of getting into wargaming. Any competant retail staff member knows this. Any competant retail staff member will show someone a 1.5k army or similar, but then explain why this should be approached carefully and methodically for the first time. This doesn't stop them selling entire armies to newbies, this is retail after all, but that advice is essential. And Vets need to take on that responsibility too. Saying to a mate they need a 1.5k army just to play a game is wrong and a disservice to that friend, and this is a problem I came up against time and again in the stores, even back when the prices looked like a bargain basement.

paddyalexander
03-11-2011, 09:50
When I used to play 40k I used to introduce friends to it by first playing 40k in 40 minutes, then 1000 point games and eventualy 1500 games, mainly because a lot of us were poor students at the time. The problem was that certain members of the group were able to buy into the hobby faster than others. This left some of the group wanting to play larger games while others simply didn't have the models to do so yet.

When introducing a new gamer to an established club, were most of the games are played at a high level (1500 - 2000 points) then even if all the group have no problem playing smaller games with the new gamer, he/she is still going to feel preasured to get to the standard points size that the group plays at.

gwPLC should look at what other companies are doing in relation to their starter sets. If somebody wants to start Warmachine, Dystopian Wars, Malifaux or Infinity all they need to do is buy a faction starter box that is (mostly) balanced and ready to play against the other faction boxes available for that game.

Reworking their Battleboxes so that they include armies that are balanced to play against each other would ease the pain of entry somewhat, with new players being able to play to start playing against each other in a balanced representation of the larger game with a minimum of work on their part.

Bleeding Through
03-11-2011, 09:58
Does he only like 40k? Why not try him with a smaller scale game with better rules and a cheaper start and end cost. There are plenty games out there that make gw look stupid for the start up price

Scorpion0x17
03-11-2011, 10:36
Let me tell you about my relationship with 40K and WFB:

I really like painting the figures.

I quite like the settings.

And certainly like the idea of playing the game(s).

But I never have.

Why?

Because of the cost of a 'standard' army.

Sure, I know you can start small, and it's possible to play with just a couple of units and a character, but, well, a 'proper game' is big armies, right?

So, instead I buy the odd figure, and the occasional unit. And I paint as many as I feel like painting. I've even bought army books, the WFB rule book, and will buy the Imperial Guard Codex, for background. But, whilst I have some of this, and some of that, I doubt I could put together a 'legal' army for even of the smallest game types.

Maybe one day I'll have enough figures from a single army to actually be able to play a proper game, but I actually doubt it.

Easy E
03-11-2011, 10:52
I love 40K at 1K points or less. Every lost trooper matters.

I agree that the community focus on 1500+ pts games are limiting to newbies just as much as the price.

Goat of Yuggoth
03-11-2011, 11:02
I spent a fair amount of time in GWs retail chain and I never, ever once recommended that anyone but a Veteran start an army off in one lump. Its ridiculous as it allows almost no room for any kind of experimentation and always leaves a a lasting legacy of disappointment. With every game, army and unit allowing so much variation to tie someone in so early to a restrictive army list without them even knowing the game, and therefore how they want to play, is irresponsible. When you add in that sinking feeling when you realise that you are not a Michelangelo of the miniature painting world and you are looking at a huge pile of stuff to paint, all in all its a terrible approach to take.

A more than reasonable game can be played, quickly and simply, with a character and two troop choices. Yes its boring for Vets but this isn't about them, its about people with little or no idea what they are doing. The newbie will find it exciting, but limiting and with the right advice will crack on with the painting and gaming so they can get their next units, now much better informed on how they like to play and what they like the look of next.

There is a big difference between GWs marketing to maiximise their sales through an aspirational approach, and the reality of getting into wargaming. Any competant retail staff member knows this. Any competant retail staff member will show someone a 1.5k army or similar, but then explain why this should be approached carefully and methodically for the first time. This doesn't stop them selling entire armies to newbies, this is retail after all, but that advice is essential. And Vets need to take on that responsibility too. Saying to a mate they need a 1.5k army just to play a game is wrong and a disservice to that friend, and this is a problem I came up against time and again in the stores, even back when the prices looked like a bargain basement.

This.

It's very sad when someone who gets into the hobby is constantly urged to get that army big, fast, and then buy the next one by his friends. It's almost like the more experienced players want him to play just for their hobby.

And I do get it that some people want to just play the game itself. But it's something for me that I will never understand. It would feel for me as if I bought myself a pair of good jeans and ripped the other half away just to wear that super awesome one pant in public!

But, if you just want to play the game and look at awesome Space Marines, then there's no problem. If you're not going to paint the miniatures anyway, don't use them. Buy loads of bases and mount them with paper stands of photocopied pictures. You now have a full 'Eavy metal standard painted army, and it cost you only 4.99$!

Cheers,
Goat

Sureshot05
03-11-2011, 11:50
40K can be fun at all points. It really just requires imagination.

I recently have been introducing a friend who is mainly interested in the painting. I gave them a figure, they painted it, I pointed them at GW's starter set with paints in (18.50) and they have bought this and are experimenting with painting.

For the game, they have been trying the following in my "demo" sessions for 40K:

1) demo game of squad vs squad (necessary for basics)
2) 2 squads of differing types (devastators and assault are ideal for this!) vs. two tactical squads.
3) i let them pick two squads and threw against them a vehicle. Suddenly they're challenged to do something different and they got to learn some new rules.

When they get the first figures painted, I'll let them use those on the table AND I'll also let them join another army if they want to try a larger game. But the low levels are not as bad as people think!

Freakiq
03-11-2011, 13:12
When they get the first figures painted, I'll let them use those on the table AND I'll also let them join another army if they want to try a larger game. But the low levels are not as bad as people think!

This.

Most of the people in my group has 3000+ point armies but we still enjoy 500p skirmishes because they require different tactics and army setups.

DarkLordBelial
03-11-2011, 20:50
It doesn't have to be expensive though - if you are a canny buyer.

I'm no expert on W40K as it's not my game system of choice but :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer40k-space-marine-army-/140630977858?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item20be426d42

Seems like a good deal - a whole army (with some painted) plus the codex for 130 quid.

I'm sure other bargains are to be had on ebay.

You can also do even better if you check forums like this - I managed to get a fairly decent collection of Skaven from a fellow forum member for a fraction of the above price.

Buying second hand until you know you are commited is good advice for any hobby, including our own.

Max Jet
03-11-2011, 21:01
Buying second hand until you know you are commited is good advice for any hobby, including our own.

You cannot allow yourself to be picky though. Most of the second hand stuff is ruined by poor painting and conversion skills.

How about this here?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WARZONE-Mutant-Chronicles-Battle-Board-Game-NEW-Swedish-/120801706350?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item1c2057c16e

If you are only for the miniatures (as the rules are open source now) You can get them for 18 pounds. And if you like 40k more, you can use them as Imperial Guard as the Imperial miniatures are arguably a better looking Imperial Guard Regiment.

DarkLordBelial
03-11-2011, 21:08
You cannot allow yourself to be picky though. Most of the second hand stuff is ruined by poor painting and conversion skills.

True, but a newcomer to the hobby is unlikely to be a master painter/converter and is unlikely to be able to do a better job themselves.

Even more reason to buy second hand - until you've practived your skills and have the confidence to not ruin your new models with a dodgy paint job.

Scorpion0x17
03-11-2011, 21:09
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer40k-space-marine-army-/140630977858?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item20be426d42

Seems like a good deal - a whole army (with some painted) plus the codex for 130 quid.


Yeah, but you have to actually be quite knowledgeable about the game to know whether that's even a legal army, let alone whether it's a good deal or not.
Not to mention whether you even want to play Space Marines, or, more importantly those Sapce Marines!

DarkLordBelial
03-11-2011, 21:12
Yeah, but you have to actually be quite knowledgeable about the game to know whether that's even a legal army, let alone whether it's a good deal or not.
Not to mention whether you even want to play Space Marines, or, more importantly those Sapce Marines!

As I say - I'm no expert on W40K (in fact I know nothing :D) so can't comment on that aspect - but usually if you are being introduced by a friend then they can give advice.

If you tire of them, or make the wrong decision it's also simple enough to stick them back on ebay and often get your money back, or indeed make a profit!

Scorpion0x17
03-11-2011, 22:01
Or find you paid way over the odds for an army nobody wants.

Dyrnwyn
04-11-2011, 00:16
I had a friend who was mildly interested in starting 40k - he started by buying a box of Grey Knights to use in Necromunda as Arbites. After playing Necromunda for a while, he started looking at what he would need to take to get up to a full force for 40k. At the time, he was looking at something like $175 more to spend after the $45 box he had already bought, just to get minimum HQ and two Troops and his required rulebooks. He gave me his GK models and hasn't looked at 40k at all since. In contrast, when a lot of local gamers were starting Warmachine, he looked at the $50 boxes and picked up a Khador Box and a box of Widowmakers without much fuss.

Yeah, entry price does cause people to balk at the price, and that was before GW's latest round of price increases.

eron12
04-11-2011, 02:22
Even the most broke person can afford to play this game, just ration what you buy as much as possible...On the extreme you could make $40 worth of purchases every few months, and still have an army within the year.

I like Warhammer, it's a fun game. Is it a game worth waiting a year to play? Not in my opinion. I tried the buy as you paint finish a unit before getting another one apporach when I first started the hobby and I left in less than a year because I was getting nowhere and was never going to get to play. When I came back years later, I worried about buying to play, and painting when I got around to it. Now I play a lot, paint a little, and really enjoy the time spent.

I can't image most people who are new to Warhammer investing a year before they even get to play the game.

orkmiester
04-11-2011, 11:10
It's very sad when someone who gets into the hobby is constantly urged to get that army big, fast, and then buy the next one by his friends. It's almost like the more experienced players want him to play just for their hobby.

indeed, and thats why i'm taking a 40k break- partly my fault as well mind:mad: but after the standard bearer article in this months white dwarf i'm looking on things differently...

back on topic...

i do think most people have hit the nail on the head about start up costs...

lets just take a look at some of the other systems out there

dystopian wars- really 1 rulebook/naval battle group is all you need (you can of course also do land warfare) and add a drednought and thats 1k right there a good evening of gaming there:)

firestorm armada- same as dystopian but you might need to add a few extra ships but they do not cost that much...

infinity- you can download the rules for free:eek: so no rulebook cost (well the printer takes a hit though...) and a starter pack isn't too expensive considering you can start playing straight away...

all much of a muchness if you pardon the expression;)

i've got a friend who dosen't go to my club but has a group of friends he plays with regularly and i'm hopefully going to join them at one stage- subversive alert:shifty: and thanks to my time already playing, some of my 40k/whfb armies total two of ther entire collections at once:wtf:

that will be a challenge as they seem different players to the ones i am used to but i can only offer 'my' adivced however biased... still only doing 1500pts is no problem...

you have to be experienced when you buy a whole army at once- i've done that with CSM as i know roughly how it will work- but i've got build it all etc now and i had a backlog 'sigh' very silly of me...(most of it off ebay...)

i reckon the best way is to lend new players an army first and teach them the rules- adimit it many of us have multiple armies then they should know what they are getting into...

here we go around that shifty mulberry bush...:angel:

Omniassiah
04-11-2011, 11:30
The big problem with starting small on GW games is that they scale horribly. Take a look at the required extra rules for 40k in 40min. Large swaths of models have to be excluded from the game due to being plain overbearing/broken at that points level. PP systems on the other hand have pretty much no change in rules between 15 to however high you want to go.

Buying in small gaps really don't help you build a useful army as well. There are certain things that work well at low points but I'd probably never take past 1000pts or you just need to have multiples to work well. Other game systems seem to handle the building up of points much better.

PointBlank
04-11-2011, 15:25
I have to wonder whether there would be as many complaints about GW's pricing if they hadn't artificially inflated the model count of the game (around 3rd ed, or 4th?) by dropping individual points values and gearing the rulesets to bigger formations.

If the game was still more skirmish based (with some decent rules of course - see the above comment on bad scaling of it's current incarnation), I'm fairly sure less people would balk at the starting cost and GW'd probably sell more Armies - people could afford to buy up 500pts at a time, try out different armies and buy extras for variants / alt themes etc. Never happen though :P

chamelion 6
04-11-2011, 16:18
I disagree completely that 40k doesn't scale down well. In fact I think the game works far better at 750 to 1000pts than it does at the usual 1500pts.

For one thing, your Troop choices become more important and relevant as they are the dominant units on the table. Fast, Elite, and Heavies are limited and while they can tip the balance of a game one way or the other if used carefully, there are not enough of them to overwhelm or unbalance a game. All the spam issues disappear and far more emphasis is place on manuever since you can only control a local area of the table at one time. You have to think in terms of controling objectives and not squander assets on pointless skirmishes.

I was hesitant to go to smaller games at first too, but they really are much more of what 40k should be than any 1500pt game I've played.

Scorpion0x17
04-11-2011, 17:14
Chamelion,

The thing is though, 750 to 1000 points isn't small, from a non-players point of view, it's still a massive investment.

There should be a whole gradation of point-counts that work, so, one can start buying, and, more importantly, start playing, with, say, as little as one squad.

You know, so I could take along my box of Cadian Shock Troops, and Cadian Command Squad, play a 20minute skirmish game, and most imprtantly have fun.

Then I might think, hmm... I like the look of those Heavy Weapons teams, I'll buy a box of those...

And so on.

But as it is, it's like "oh, you'll need two of those, and some of them, and couple of characters, a tank, or two, and this, and that, and then maybe you start" and I just say "you know what, I like to paint the figures, I'll just buy and paint the ones I fancy painting, then maybe, some day, I'll have what amounts to a legal army, but I doubt it, 'cos I'm buying to paint, not to play".

T9nv3
04-11-2011, 17:59
I don't know, I've found myself drifting more and more towards specialist games lately...and not just because of cost.

We have a few noobs at my LGS who are really into WHFB and have 2500pt armies, the problem is, they just don't know how to play yet....even with net-lists. Its really easy for these people to get discouraged and stop coming out to play. I was in their shoes at one point, so I don't mind taking things down a notch or two...but really....after a few games it's obvious that big games are a bit too unwieldy for the average "new" player.

Lots of new players are attracted to the models and the fluff. That's why I like to encourage interested players to try Mordheim/Necromunda (which we play regularly and are always willing to just pick up). It allows them to buy a box of troops and a HQ and just have a few games that are fun and very forgiving....while serving as a foundation for their future armies.

If they are having fun and enjoying the group they'll be willing to invest more over time.

Dervos
04-11-2011, 18:53
I'd just like to share a short story with the community.

One of my work-mates started showing an interest in the hobby, and over a couple of months we talked about the 40k universe, the background, and even put together some fluff behind what might become his first space marine army.

I took him down to the local store and he spent 5 minutes just staring into one of the glass cabinets before I could drag him away, and we played a 500 point demo game which he really enjoyed.

He bought a codex and started planning a 1500 point army space marine army.

A couple of months later and he has no intention of starting his army and I can kind of understand why. He added up how much his first army would cost to buy on the GW website and it came to £250!! For space marines... supposedly one of the cheaper armies to put together. I mean if he'd picked tyranids or orks....

Anyway, he baulked at the price. I asked him what it was and he said he didn't want to spend that much on principle because it would feel like he was getting ripped off.

For the vets, I guess the price rise is an annoyance to put up with, but I think for new players it might actually be a deal breaker; definitely for my mate, but maybe for others too.

This has probably already been mentioned but I'll bring it up again.(Sorry if I sound like im lecturing, or if any get's put off by the feel-good vibe)

A hobby takes a lot of time, money and patience to get into, some are easier to pick up than others.

40k is a multi hobby, there's painting, modelling, gaming, and then maybe reading and writing if you really get into the fluff.

I could understand why he didn't think it was worth it, it's a lot of money to drop down all together, because that's what we look at, the final price of everything. But he doesn't have to buy it all in one go, he might even regret later, that's why you ease yourself into a hobby, especially ones that cost a lot of money.

He could have bought one unit a month or something painted it, and picked up the next one, maybe he ascertained correctly that he wouldn't have had the patience/interest to wait that long, I wasn't there I don't know the conversation or his personality. He also probably had overriding prerogatives, other hobbies that he already spent money/time on that he knows he'll enjoy and there is no/little risk to it as opposed to jumping right into a new one.

Whatever his reasons he decided against it, maybe later his tastes will changed and he might consider trying it again, it isn't for everyone.

A lot of us play video games but if we try and get someone who's never played/owned any before to get in to it, they'll probably worry about the price too. Because you have to have a tv, and a console before you can even play the games, some of them need internet access and memberships as well.

My own way of getting into WH40k would probably have broken a lot of other people's patience. I'm even shocked sometimes that I play it now considering the length of time, the best part of it now is that I'm finally starting to appreciate painting and modelling more now and the investment i put into it is paying in huge dividends. I made my own share of mistakes along the way but I know what to expect now and it isn't scary at all. like it was.

The price will drive away a lot of new players, this problem isn't unique to our hobby though, it attracts people in different ways, maybe your friend will come back to it later. I'd encourage him if he still shows any interest in it still, if he still has that codex there's a possibility.

eron12
04-11-2011, 19:07
I have to wonder whether there would be as many complaints about GW's pricing if they hadn't artificially inflated the model count of the game (around 3rd ed, or 4th?) by dropping individual points values and gearing the rulesets to bigger formations.

If the game was still more skirmish based (with some decent rules of course - see the above comment on bad scaling of it's current incarnation), I'm fairly sure less people would balk at the starting cost and GW'd probably sell more Armies - people could afford to buy up 500pts at a time, try out different armies and buy extras for variants / alt themes etc. Never happen though :P

Just speaking for myself, I would never have gotten into Warhammer if it hadn't been the size it was. I was draw by Warhammer: the Game of Fantasy Battles. I have no interest in Warhamer: the Game of Fantasy Skirmish.

I don't play 40k (yet) but I have similar views. I'm interested in battles, not skirmishes.

shelfunit.
04-11-2011, 19:19
Just speaking for myself, I would never have gotten into Warhammer if it hadn't been the size it was. I was draw by Warhammer: the Game of Fantasy Battles. I have no interest in Warhamer: the Game of Fantasy Skirmish.

I don't play 40k (yet) but I have similar views. I'm interested in battles, not skirmishes.

The only thing against that is games of 100-200 troops aside really are just skirmishes by "war" standard.

EDIT: For a true "mass battle" simulation 28mm is basically just too large a scale, you really need to drop down at least to 15mm, and realistically to 6mm (Epic) for that.

eron12
04-11-2011, 20:29
The only thing against that is games of 100-200 troops aside really are just skirmishes by "war" standard.

EDIT: For a true "mass battle" simulation 28mm is basically just too large a scale, you really need to drop down at least to 15mm, and realistically to 6mm (Epic) for that.

Very true, though I regularly see battles of 10-15 a side (which is what I've seen with my limited view of Warhammer skirmish) in my rpgs. 100-200 may not be a full scale battle by any means, but is is signifigantly different from the rpgs I was playing at the time to interest me.

rodmillard
04-11-2011, 20:53
Actually, 100-200 a side is about right for dark-ages/early-medieval Europe. Population density was so low that you simply wouldn't get many more than that levied in time.

It's only once you get to high medieval/renaissance (which is what WFB is supposed to be ... mostly) you start getting forces in the thousands. For that, most historical gamers have to either use smaller figures, or start using "unit scale." My Thirty Years War French, for example, are being collected at a "unit scale" of 1:20 - that is, each model represents 20 men (since I will be using Warlord figures and rules, which give units of 40 infantry or 12 cavalry, while the average size for an infantry battailon was 800 and a cavalry companie was 250).

Scorpion0x17
04-11-2011, 21:06
Actually, 100-200 a side is about right for dark-ages/early-medieval Europe...

...when there were, of course, also hordes of Orcs and Goblins running around. :rolleyes:

yabbadabba
04-11-2011, 21:11
...when there were, of course, also hordes of Orcs and Goblins running around. :rolleyes: There was, according to some myths and legends.

Omniassiah
04-11-2011, 21:46
I disagree completely that 40k doesn't scale down well. In fact I think the game works far better at 750 to 1000pts than it does at the usual 1500pts.

For one thing, your Troop choices become more important and relevant as they are the dominant units on the table. Fast, Elite, and Heavies are limited and while they can tip the balance of a game one way or the other if used carefully, there are not enough of them to overwhelm or unbalance a game. All the spam issues disappear and far more emphasis is place on manuever since you can only control a local area of the table at one time. You have to think in terms of controling objectives and not squander assets on pointless skirmishes.

I was hesitant to go to smaller games at first too, but they really are much more of what 40k should be than any 1500pt game I've played.

I've played quite a few smaller games, hell, I referee one of the larger 40k events in PA, The Berks Spring Assault (we had 50 people last year) and its a 1000 point event. Reality is though there are some VERY obnoxious lists that you can unintentionally make, let alone purposefully make, at the 750-1000 mark. Go lower and it gets worse. Reality is somethings are rough to deal with at low levels. Anything AV 14 or 2+ can be very rough for some armies, and it wasn't surprising that even at 1000pts the lists that were at the top of the tourny results were the ones that for the most part would have been illegal under the 40k in 40min rules.


The only thing against that is games of 100-200 troops aside really are just skirmishes by "war" standard.

EDIT: For a true "mass battle" simulation 28mm is basically just too large a scale, you really need to drop down at least to 15mm, and realistically to 6mm (Epic) for that.

By "war" standards anything company or larger is a Battle for modern/sci-fi. You have to remember that a unit of 200men can cover almost half a kilometer of front. That would be 2men per foxhole with about 3-5m spacing between foxholes(taken straight from US Army doctrine). Skirmishes would be no larger then platoon sized formations.

popisdead
04-11-2011, 22:15
Back then when I started I wish I would have been that wise.

I wished someone would have shown me the non high street advertised alternatives. Maybe he wants too?


I don't think that is the point.

A buddy priced out a 2500 point Tomb King list and it came to $1000. That is ridiculously outrageous. And in Canada we cannot buy cheaper alternatives other than saving maybe 20/30% at The War Store/GCMinis.

shelfunit.
04-11-2011, 22:49
By "war" standards anything company or larger is a Battle for modern/sci-fi. You have to remember that a unit of 200men can cover almost half a kilometer of front. That would be 2men per foxhole with about 3-5m spacing between foxholes(taken straight from US Army doctrine). Skirmishes would be no larger then platoon sized formations.

I'm going along the fantasy scope of battles - 40K always has been skirmish level, for big battles in the 40K universe Epic is the only practical way forward. I would have thought Warmaster for fantasy, but it seems for some reason the army size does not deviate that much from that of a normal WFB game.

Zaustus
04-11-2011, 22:54
Actually, 100-200 a side is about right for dark-ages/early-medieval Europe. Population density was so low that you simply wouldn't get many more than that levied in time.
That seems a little small, even for the early medieval period. The Battle of Tours in 732 featured 15,000 Franks vs. 20,000 Moors, by conservative estimates. The armies of antiquity were quite large (Romans, Goths etc.) but plagues and political fragmentation did drastically decrease the prevalence of large field armies by the dark ages.

Ozorik
04-11-2011, 23:02
You could easily halve that £250 initial cost simply by using Ebay, if your friend buys things slowly that figure would be even less, much less if he sticks to AoBR stuff. All that is required is some patience and the knowledge of how to strip paint.

I am half way through buying a 1750 Death Guard army entirely through Ebay that will cost me around £160 in the end (even though it has 5 vehicles and most of the infantry are forgeworld).


That seems a little small, even for the early medieval period. The Battle of Tours in 732 featured 15,000 Franks vs. 20,000 Moors, by conservative estimates. The armies of antiquity were quite large (Romans, Goths etc.) but plagues and political fragmentation did drastically decrease the prevalence of large field armies by the dark ages.

Dark Age armies in Britain were very small. Apparently most Viking raiding forces/armies of this period were about 200 men strong.

rodmillard
05-11-2011, 10:33
That seems a little small, even for the early medieval period. The Battle of Tours in 732 featured 15,000 Franks vs. 20,000 Moors, by conservative estimates. The armies of antiquity were quite large (Romans, Goths etc.) but plagues and political fragmentation did drastically decrease the prevalence of large field armies by the dark ages.

I bow to your superior knowledge of warfare on the mainland - I was thinking in terms of "Dark Ages" Britain and just assumed mainland Europe would be similar.

*goes back to analysing aerial photos of Anglo-Saxon fortifications*

yabbadabba
05-11-2011, 10:46
I bow to your superior knowledge of warfare on the mainland - I was thinking in terms of "Dark Ages" Britain and just assumed mainland Europe would be similar.

*goes back to analysing aerial photos of Anglo-Saxon fortifications* Lol - lets not get into a geek war ;) Suffice to say you are both correct.

shelfunit.
05-11-2011, 11:26
Lol - lets not get into a geek war ;)

But would that be a mass battle, or a skirmish? :shifty:

yabbadabba
05-11-2011, 11:32
But would that be a mass battle, or a skirmish? :shifty: On here? M.A.D. I would think.

chamelion 6
05-11-2011, 21:55
Chamelion,

The thing is though, 750 to 1000 points isn't small, from a non-players point of view, it's still a massive investment.

There should be a whole gradation of point-counts that work, so, one can start buying, and, more importantly, start playing, with, say, as little as one squad.

You know, so I could take along my box of Cadian Shock Troops, and Cadian Command Squad, play a 20minute skirmish game, and most imprtantly have fun.

Then I might think, hmm... I like the look of those Heavy Weapons teams, I'll buy a box of those...

And so on.

But as it is, it's like "oh, you'll need two of those, and some of them, and couple of characters, a tank, or two, and this, and that, and then maybe you start" and I just say "you know what, I like to paint the figures, I'll just buy and paint the ones I fancy painting, then maybe, some day, I'll have what amounts to a legal army, but I doubt it, 'cos I'm buying to paint, not to play".

On the other hand, with Space Marines, 750 points is a rather modest army that could be had for a minimal investment. And there are other elite armies that could be had for less money than IG. IG is probably one of the most expensive armies at any point level.



I've played quite a few smaller games, hell, I referee one of the larger 40k events in PA, The Berks Spring Assault (we had 50 people last year) and its a 1000 point event. Reality is though there are some VERY obnoxious lists that you can unintentionally make, let alone purposefully make, at the 750-1000 mark. Go lower and it gets worse. Reality is somethings are rough to deal with at low levels. Anything AV 14 or 2+ can be very rough for some armies, and it wasn't surprising that even at 1000pts the lists that were at the top of the tourny results were the ones that for the most part would have been illegal under the 40k in 40min rules.


That AV14 or 2+ whatever is going to likely cost you a good cunck of that 750points and I don't know of any Troop choices with those stats.

Only Troops can hold objectives so if you blow all your points on that uber-unit you're going to hadicap yourself to the point you cannot win. So if you play an actual scenario that forces you to take and hold objectives to win the game becomes self policing. Most often those big expensive elites become a handicap more than an asset when you go overboard with them. Troop choices become the most important units in the game and the elites, fast, and heavies become supporting units, not the focus of the game like they usually are in 1500 point attrition games.

Just because a player really likes their special units, doesn't mean they need a table full of them to enjoy them. The special units become even more special when they are in short supply and their special stats and abilities stand out rather than when they're spammed across the table. Which is the way it should be.

A scenario around 750 to 1000 pts forces you to come up with a balanced force emphasizing Troop choices, because they are the only units capable of winning the game, and it forces the player to really consider what kind of benefit those other options are going to be on the table. You just don't have enough points to take a lot of "candy." Everybody on the table has to pull their weight.

Duke Georgal
05-11-2011, 22:40
Look, if you cannot afford to spend $100.00 to $250.00 a month on a hobby, pretty much any hobby, then you should not get involved.

It isn't that people cannot afford a hobby, it is that there are other things they would rather spend the money on.

For almost everyone, getting into something new means giving up something else, or going into debt. It is a personal decision.

Zaustus
05-11-2011, 23:57
Uh, that's way more money than you need to spend on a hobby. Just for example, neither my wargaming nor my wife's sewing costs anywhere near $100 a month, let alone $250. Sure there are startup costs, but there's no good reason maintenance costs should be so high. This all depends on what your hobby is, of course.

And going into debt for a hobby? That's flat out, stark raving insane.

lbecks
06-11-2011, 00:07
I don't think it's just price that is a deterrent. There are a couple disparate factors in the hobby where a person may like one or not the other.

Omniassiah
06-11-2011, 00:10
On the other hand, with Space Marines, 750 points is a rather modest army that could be had for a minimal investment. And there are other elite armies that could be had for less money than IG. IG is probably one of the most expensive armies at any point level.

That AV14 or 2+ whatever is going to likely cost you a good cunck of that 750points and I don't know of any Troop choices with those stats.

Only Troops can hold objectives so if you blow all your points on that uber-unit you're going to hadicap yourself to the point you cannot win. So if you play an actual scenario that forces you to take and hold objectives to win the game becomes self policing. Most often those big expensive elites become a handicap more than an asset when you go overboard with them. Troop choices become the most important units in the game and the elites, fast, and heavies become supporting units, not the focus of the game like they usually are in 1500 point attrition games.

Just because a player really likes their special units, doesn't mean they need a table full of them to enjoy them. The special units become even more special when they are in short supply and their special stats and abilities stand out rather than when they're spammed across the table. Which is the way it should be.

A scenario around 750 to 1000 pts forces you to come up with a balanced force emphasizing Troop choices, because they are the only units capable of winning the game, and it forces the player to really consider what kind of benefit those other options are going to be on the table. You just don't have enough points to take a lot of "candy." Everybody on the table has to pull their weight.

Grey Knights have a 2+/5++ troop choice, Orks can have a 2+ Troops choice, and with my guard I can have at least 4(maybe 6) scoring units and still have 2 Russ. I can get away with 3 if I want to restrict myself to 3 scoring units, which is quite fine compared to the amount of damage those tanks will be putting out will reduce your scoring units quite capably. Yes, there are counters to those lists including the guard lists with the 100 respawning conscripts at 1000 points but chances are you won't be able to put the counter for multiple list styles in one list due to the point limit.

However the units that are both highly survivable and capable of dealing with multiple unit types become greatly inflated in value compared to those on a battlefield were a greater quantity of counters are available.

chamelion 6
06-11-2011, 01:46
Grey Knights have a 2+/5++ troop choice, Orks can have a 2+ Troops choice, and with my guard I can have at least 4(maybe 6) scoring units and still have 2 Russ. I can get away with 3 if I want to restrict myself to 3 scoring units, which is quite fine compared to the amount of damage those tanks will be putting out will reduce your scoring units quite capably. Yes, there are counters to those lists including the guard lists with the 100 respawning conscripts at 1000 points but chances are you won't be able to put the counter for multiple list styles in one list due to the point limit.

However the units that are both highly survivable and capable of dealing with multiple unit types become greatly inflated in value compared to those on a battlefield were a greater quantity of counters are available.

At this point range most armies get off with a couple of Troop choices and an additional support unit. The IG do have an advantage in being able to flood the board with scoring units, but they are units that die easily. A Russ is an alternative that can easily add a lot of firepower to these delicate units but can just as easily fall prey to cheap AT fire leaving the rest of the hoard at a serious disadvantage. Often it becomes a paper tiger.

I don't know anybody that plays Grey Knights or ever looked at the codex, but stats like that can't be cheap, so in a small game there will never be many of them. You don't always have to kill an elite force to defeat it and armies with small unit counts often find themselves simply not being able to be everywhere at once. Often a well played delaying tactic makes up for a lack of firepower. Things that look undefeatable on paper rarely live up to their expectations. It becomes a big table when you only have 3 units to control it with.

And yes, that does mean taking a few minutes to think out placing terrain and objectives, but it pays big dividends in producing a good game. I had a lot of reservations about playing smaller games because I like big armies, but having done it for some time now, I can say I really don't care all that much for 1500 point games anymore. The seem static and bogged down by comparison.

chamelion 6
06-11-2011, 01:50
Uh, that's way more money than you need to spend on a hobby. Just for example, neither my wargaming nor my wife's sewing costs anywhere near $100 a month, let alone $250. Sure there are startup costs, but there's no good reason maintenance costs should be so high. This all depends on what your hobby is, of course.

And going into debt for a hobby? That's flat out, stark raving insane.

I play guitar and like to go to various jams... Nobody is going to say it's cheap, but it's nowhere near $100 a month.

$100 to $250 a month is outrageous for most of us.

susu.exp
06-11-2011, 01:59
lets just take a look at some of the other systems out there

dystopian wars- really 1 rulebook/naval battle group is all you need (you can of course also do land warfare) and add a drednought and thats 1k right there a good evening of gaming there:)

firestorm armada- same as dystopian but you might need to add a few extra ships but they do not cost that much...

infinity- you can download the rules for free:eek: so no rulebook cost (well the printer takes a hit though...) and a starter pack isn't too expensive considering you can start playing straight away...

all much of a muchness if you pardon the expression;)

That“s two fleet games and a skirmish system. Now, GW does a fleet game - BFG. The starting cost for the Imperium and Chaos fleets are what? About £30 if you get 4 cruizers and some escorts. The rules are free to download. GW also does Skirmish games: Necromunda, Mortheim and Gorkamorka. The rules again are free, the miniatures aren“t that expensive - a box of Ork Boys and a Trukk are about £30, Necromunda Gang boxes are £20.50 and so are Mortheim Warbands. And you could convert them from a £12 plastic boxed set if pressed.
As far as Skirmish systems go these are priced rather competatively - 8 Models compared to Malifax with up to 6 for almost £30 or Infinity with £30 for 6 or 7 models. The upgrades of 3 models for less than £9 also fall into a range where they are low cost compared to competitors.
The same goes for Epic, where the plastic infantry enables you to get large playable armies for little money and it also goes for Lord of the Rings, Warmaster and Blood Bowl.
It doesn“t hold for 40k and WFB. Because they are a type of game that is somewhat different from all of these: They are non-skirmish games in 28mm. They used to be skirmish games, which were successful and had people play bigger battles, which in turn led to rules that lend themselves to larger battles - it was demand that drove the increase in scale more than GW dictating it (people who perfered less models moved to other systems, but GWs games have been successful nevertheless), heck it was demand for games involving more miniatures than existing RPG rules allowed for (if the game was to be playable in an evening) that led to the creation of Warhammer in the first place.
The whole issue was created by the community (and GW have actually tried to counteract it with the 40k in 40 minutes rules, the Kill team rules), where one generation would collect armies to the size the game was intended for and then some, leading to a demand for rules that handled bigger battles and thus an increase in the standard size of games through time. At the end of 3rd Ed. 1500 points was normal at tournaments, now 1750 seems more standard. That“s nothing GW do, it“s something the community does. This is something that affects local gaming communities and does indeed create a motion towards high innitial costs for armies that size. We do 750 point tournaments locally, to get people who don“t have big armies yet involved and they are great fun. But we have quite a few huge armies around, my 4000 something points of CSM are small among the vets (I paint slowly and like to build new armies). 40k would push towards 2000 if GW hadn“t opted to build Apo for larger games. In the same way WotR and SoM allow size creep to happen outside of "normal" WFB and LotR - not a bad idea (and if it had occured to somebody earlier the games might be better than they currently are).
It“s the community getting what it wants and it leaves the pressumed target audience somewhat put off. If you want to point a finger, look at your own collection of more models than you could ever hope to field in a regular game. They asked us what car we wanted and we designed the Homer. It“s as simple as that. Anybody who thinks that a 6th Ed. 40k designed to work with forces the size normal for 2nd Ed. wouldn“t cause a gigantic uproar among players (for instance here) is mistaken. You bought and painted all those guardsmen/Orks/Marines and now you find it hard to get both a combat Squad of Devastators and Assault Marines in a list? You find that 2 Chimaeras are a lot to put on the table? What about those Stompas? Those Warhound titans? OK, the starter box may now include 75% of an army, but what about your needs?

paddyalexander
06-11-2011, 06:25
The 40k in 40 minutes rules were developed by a British school club, not by gwPLC. I remember a White Dwarf article about it just before the Eye of Terror campaign. It was then given some minor changes and released as Combat patrol in the 4th ed rule book.

Wintermute
06-11-2011, 10:02
If you want to discuss pricing, then do so in this (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209297) thread.

Thread Closed

Wintermute