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Tayrod
02-11-2011, 09:42
Hey! Im contemplating starting a marine army, I've read through the Blood angels, space wolves, and space marine codex, but I still have not read CSM, and Grey knights. With this in mind I have a few questions for you. :)

First off, Im definantely making my own chapter, with my own colour scheme (so far, Im going for a blend of Dark angels and goblin green). Do you guys see this as a problem when facing space wolves, as they technically only have one successor chapter?

Seondly; Space marines seems a bit underwhelming when compared to the likes of Blood angels, and Space wolves. Is this a general "feeling" in the forum, or am I wrong? Can anyone inform me what (except variety) vanilla SM does better then BA or SW?

Thirdly; Should I check out the CSM and Grey Knights dex? Will people in general be opposed to my Grey knights, being -not grey-?

LonelyPath
02-11-2011, 12:12
Grey Knights are not grey to begin with, they wear gun metal armour, but people do paint them different colours, it's their army after all :) They have a strong codex and one I like to use, so it's worth checking them out if you think it's a army you might want to collect. However, I think the only successor chapter they have (at least the only one I can think of) are the Exorcists, who operate like a codex chapter, which is completely different to the GK.

As for successor chapters, they can have whatever colour scheme you can dream up, no one bats a eye lid when you put a army on the table and say "it's a successor chapter" but it's always a good idea to work out some sort of back story for the chapter, company markings, chapter symbol, important characters of note, nothing to serious, a few notes on a sheet of paper will do to start, then you can build off that. You will need a name for the chapter though and that's one of the most important parts.

Azmodan666
02-11-2011, 12:14
BA and SW are far more powerfull then vamilla SM...

GK and even more powerfull then BA and SW..

The Marshel
02-11-2011, 14:57
BA and SW are far more powerfull then vamilla SM...

GK and even more powerfull then BA and SW..

debatable that GK are more powerful then BA and SW if you ask me. GK are very powerful but they can have huge range and numbers based issues, and frankly, they play quite differently to the other pair.

Now, there is something that really needs to be understood by anyone looking to start a marine army.

They all work very differently. Of course, they are still very similar and you can make a lot of very similar list, but if you're doing it right then you'll see that its all quite different.

For example, Blood angles on the surface look like vanilla +1. Fast vehicles, dedicated transport raiders, stormravens, troop assault marines etc. So you might immediately jump on them and start throwing together a "typical" marine army.

Its at this point you'll notice a few oddities. You're transports are costing you more because they are fast. sure this sounds like a good thing at first, but there are some consequences to this you may not think of straight away. The ability to jam your units down your opponents throat with most haste will take over your playstyle. If you aren't using it, you're wasting points with every rhino. If you are using it you'll soon find that tactical marines don't always want to be that close

No problem, switch to assault marines, they like being close. But now you've changed the "typical" marine army to something different. you're not using the "typical" playstlye any more.

These little things hold true for each codex. they will stack up and will effect what kinda of army you end up with.

So, in summary, the TL:DR

If all you want is the most competitive marine army you can have, then BA, SW and GK are undeniably better in 9 out of 10 cases

but the small differences in each army can and does have a huge impact on how your army feels and plays. If you are coming into this with an idea of what army you want to play, you should talk to us about that, because if you get a more enjoyable expirance from a particular book rather then the most powerful one

Tayrod
03-11-2011, 09:38
Well, for starters, I dont really like the BA fluff too much - damned to extinction, slowly dwindelig, etc, I have enough of that from my High Elves.
As for the space wolves, the fluff is great, roaring space vikings and whatnot, but I dont' like the feel of the models. For me, an ideal space marine army, should be grim faced (as opposed to sporting a large variety of facial hair), and roman-ish, sort of like the Ultramarines.

One of my favourite models, is also the land speeder storm, and Im pretty sure none of the other SM variants can take it.

On the other hand though, feel no pain tactical marines, and 3 attack grey hunters sets the bar pretty high...

TheWarmaster
03-11-2011, 10:42
Normal marines can be pretty competitive with any kind of a list, and if you want to mix models from other armies, you could make a crusading force, which means multiple chapters mixed into one army.
Ruleswise you should use a single codex. (So if you want Storms, you should use C:SM)
This would give me a chance to use Wolfguard terminators with normal marines...

The Marshel
03-11-2011, 12:37
Normal marines can be pretty competitive with any kind of a list, and if you want to mix models from other armies, you could make a crusading force, which means multiple chapters mixed into one army.
Ruleswise you should use a single codex. (So if you want Storms, you should use C:SM)
This would give me a chance to use Wolfguard terminators with normal marines...

i know your not, but it sounds like you're saying you an freely mix the books. you cant, just to be clear


Well, for starters, I dont really like the BA fluff too much - damned to extinction, slowly dwindelig, etc, I have enough of that from my High Elves.
As for the space wolves, the fluff is great, roaring space vikings and whatnot, but I dont' like the feel of the models. For me, an ideal space marine army, should be grim faced (as opposed to sporting a large variety of facial hair), and roman-ish, sort of like the Ultramarines.

One of my favourite models, is also the land speeder storm, and Im pretty sure none of the other SM variants can take it.

On the other hand though, feel no pain tactical marines, and 3 attack grey hunters sets the bar pretty high...

ok...so you dont like BA fluff but like their more traditional marine aesthetic, you don't like wolves aesthetic but like their fluff...

ok, so lets try and clear some things up then

BA tactical marines really aren't significantly better at assault then vannila tacts. FNP helps, but if you are using your sanguinary priest on tacts you're straight up wasting them. If you're looking for a tactical marine core then BA really aren't much better then vanilla. true that they are better but not sufficiently so to be worth anything.

As for grey hunters, they look like tactical marines, they can certainly pretend to be tactical marines, but they really aren't tactical marines. Again, they are certainly better, but they work very differently to a tactical squad due to both their own rules and the rules of the army around them. I don't think you really can make a "typical" marine list with the wolves book without looking at the final product and trying to work out why you bothered using the wolves book to begin with.

Honestly, i reckon you should just go with C:SM for now. given you're going to make a homebrew chapter it wont be hard to reorganize your army to the BA or SW list if you find C:SM just isnt doing it for you

TheWarmaster
03-11-2011, 12:53
i know your not, but it sounds like you're saying you an freely mix the books. you cant, just to be clear




Yes, I was only talking about mixing models from other armies.
MODELS, not RULES.

Tayrod
03-11-2011, 14:40
Thanks for all the great advice so far! Just to clarify C:SM mean Codex:Space marines? Not Chaos Space marines (with the : typo)?

LegioDestructor
03-11-2011, 15:12
A: Use pretty much any SM model, and use Codex: Space Marines.
B: Use regular SM models, without things like the LS Storm, and use Codex: Space Wolves.

As it's fairly easy to model "codex" SM models to fit into themed Codex armies (things like BA Honour Guard and Death Company are simply different coloured marines), the difference between A and B above is probably more to do with how you want the army to play.

Using Codex: Space Pups vs. Vanilla Marines definitely gives the army a tendency to favour assaults before you even start writing the army list. You sacrifice some models in the Vanilla range, but to compensate you get several unique units with attributes that befit their army.

If you use "regular" SM models but use Codex: Space Wolves, simply make it clear to your opponent that you are doing so before a game. Things like Frost Weapons and Iron Priests will be easy to keep track of with paint and converting, while things like Acute Senses and Counter-Attack are more difficult to model [except maybe pro-bionics armies like Skitarii or Iron Hands], and I wouldn't doubt it if your opponent forgot about certain special rules simply because your army wasn't grey. It happens a lot when you proxy units to "test drive" them.

It's always up to you and your opponent. Games with friends should be no problem, but pick-up games are a different story. If your army uses valid rules, you paid the points, and made the effort to point out to your opponent that model X actually represents a Grey Hunter squad, I don't see the problem.

TheWarmaster
03-11-2011, 15:23
Thanks for all the great advice so far! Just to clarify C:SM mean Codex:Space marines? Not Chaos Space marines (with the : typo)?

Yes, codex: chaos space marines is shortened to C:CSM.

massey
03-11-2011, 17:09
First, if you're doing a home-brew chapter, you can use whatever codex and background you want. If you've got a black and orange striped paint scheme and call your army the "Space Cats", there's no reason you couldn't use the Vanilla Marine book, or the Space Wolf book, or the Blood Angels book. It's up to you.

Grey Knights are a little different. They have some very unique equipment. For starters, every GK carries a storm bolter and most carry a force weapon. Most marines don't do that. So they aren't as interchangeable as other marines. Your background will have to explain why you carry all this equipment that no one else does, why you get anti-demon powers, etc (not that this can't be done, it's certainly possible). And while GK are pretty high on the totem pole as far as power goes, they aren't the runaway winner some want to make them out to be.

Blood Angels and Vanilla Marines are fairly similar to one another. Blood Angels get a few toys Vanilla guys don't. Vanilla guys get a few toys Blood Angels don't. If you really want scout bikes, you need Vanilla. If you really want a Storm Raven, you need Blood Angels. Other than that, Blood Angels can have more Chaplains, and get Sanguinary Priests, who are really good. They're also faster than their Vanilla brothers. However, they pay quite a bit for that speed. They get assault squads as troops, and they can bring 2 special weapons in a squad. Vanilla guys get combat tactics and chapter tactics, so you can have an army where every unit is Fleet, or Outflanks, or is Ld 10 and Stubborn, our gets twin-linked meltas and flamers, etc. There's a LOT of variety in the Vanilla book, and they get some really good stuff. They have the cheapest TH/SS Terminators in the game, and can make them Fleet.

But overall, Blood Angels are a little more expensive, a little faster, and a little better in HTH.

Space Wolves are the best loyalists in HTH overall, and have some very strong shooting as well. They have some cool units, like Thunderwolves, but they aren't any faster than regular marines and they're missing some of the standard options. No attack bike squadrons for you (and I love attack bikes). You can still do a Roman Army-esque themed SW army, without all the barbarian pelts and crazy hair. No reason why your Space Cats can't ride giant battle tigers with shiny bronze armor instead of big hairy thunderwolves. That's all just a modeling choice. Overall they're a pretty solid choice all the way around, but there's not a single bit of Feel No Pain in the entire army. Personally I think Space Wolves lose out a bit on the cool synergies available to Blood Angels and Vanilla Marines. Their characters tend towards just being an ass-kicker with a high strength and a lot of attacks, whereas BA and normal SM usually have commanders with abilities that benefit the whole army (and in the case of SM, can change the way the entire army plays).

Chaos isn't really worth the effort unless you plan on making a legit Chaos army. Their tactical squad equivalent is pretty good, but not spectacular. Where they really shine is their extra stuff, like summoned greater demons, khorne berzerkers, plague marines, obliterators, and other things that loyalists don't get. You can make a "generic" CSM force with a bunch of normal marines, maybe some bikes and terminators, and a commander. You could paint them up as loyalists if you wanted to and go from there. But you'll be leaving behind all the cool stuff.


If I were you, I'd start by getting fairly basic stuff. A rhino or two, a razorback, several tactical squads, a generic commander, a devastator squad, terminators, things like that. Something that can be used with whatever army you choose. Try out a few games using them as Space Wolves. Then try a few using them as Blood Angels. Then try a few using as Vanilla Marines. Use some proxies to represent cool stuff like a Stormraven, or Thunderwolves, or a special character or two. One of the books might just seem right up your alley. "Wow, I really like the way these guys play." And just proceed from there.