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Mechanicus
16-04-2006, 16:49
A while back, I posted an Adeptus Mechanicus Rank Chart. This has been updated and revised many times at the Conclave Inquisitor Forum. However, I want to get as much feedback from as many people as possible, so I've posted an updated version:
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3918/admechranks8wo.jpg
Any feedback involving the ranks, positions, cults, etc, wanted...

Puffin Magician
16-04-2006, 18:46
Awesome, definitely worth a Save As. Some quick ideas:

I thought Questors and Explorators were in the same "vein", operating [somewhat] outside standard procedures, roaming around on Tech Quests and accompanying Rogue Traders beyond the Astronomicon and into unknown regions. A Questor being par with a Magos and Explorator one [or several] echelons beyond - they're usually the ones playing with new STCs, Xenotech, and other wacky-fangled gizmos.

For the Divisio Militaris [Collegia Titanica & Centurio Ordinatus], I'd streamline them all into a single lineage. Moderati -> Princeps -> Veteran Princeps -> Princeps Senioris -> {Legate} -> Grand Master. The current image doesn't make a lot of sense; where does one go beyond a Moderati? How does one reach Grand Master-hood?

I'd also consider classifying Praetorians seperate from Servitors. IIRC they're not looked down upon so much as their criminal "bretheren".

I'd also make it a bit larger for clarity purposes [something I might do myself].

Thanks for posting this.

Mechanicus
16-04-2006, 19:05
I thought Questors and Explorators were in the same "vein", operating [somewhat] outside standard procedures, roaming around on Tech Quests and accompanying Rogue Traders beyond the Astronomicon and into unknown regions. A Questor being par with a Magos and Explorator one [or several] echelons beyond - they're usually the ones playing with new STCs, Xenotech, and other wacky-fangled gizmos.
Yep, they are. It certainly helps when I update new versions after changing something! :D Though, I would put Questors closer to Tech-priests...


For the Divisio Militaris [Collegia Titanica & Centurio Ordinatus], I'd streamline them all into a single lineage. Moderati -> Princeps -> Veteran Princeps -> Princeps Senioris -> {Legate} -> Grand Master. The current image doesn't make a lot of sense; where does one go beyond a Moderati? How does one reach Grand Master-hood?
I had it like that before, but it was explained that in the Titan series from Black Library, each princeps and Moderati are in a different training scheme. They have to share a MIU (Mind Impulse Unit) bond with a Titan, and only that Titan. So in effect, if a veteran princeps was in charge of a warhound, he would always be in charge of that warhound, and in the event the grand master died, and that princeps was the most experienced, he would not become the next grand master, as when have you heard of a warhound being the leader of a Titan Legion? What you'd have is one princeps who had never been in control of a titan, but with the mental strength to control a larger titan, after spending many years as a learner and observer, become the Grand Master, and if he needed tactical advice he would have to talk to advisors. Moderati are essentially the same, once in control of that part of a titan, always in control of that part of a titan, not becoming a Princeps.


I'd also consider classifying Praetorians seperate from Servitors. IIRC they're not looked down upon so much as their criminal "bretheren".
Maybe, but they still are servitors, and I can't really find a name for the new classification.


I'd also make it a bit larger for clarity purposes [something I might do myself].
Something I do plan to do, especially once I've got round to creating the html version.

schoon
16-04-2006, 19:08
Intending no offense to you, Mechanicus, but your chart is somewhat difficult to read, and has rather a lot of personal extrapolation.

Don't get me wrong, I heartily approve of adding to the sometimes sparse GW fluff and it's clear that you've put some effort into this, but it would be helpful if canon were more clearly differentiated from your additions in subjects other than ranks. That way one could know which portions of the chart are "fixed" (in as much as GW fluff ever stays fixed) and which are open to discussion/interpretation.

In very general terms, however, I think that your Collegia are a too specific and too numerous. In my dredging through the fluff, I've only found about six specifically mentioned, and though I'm sure there are more, I wouldn't put the overall number as high as you have.

In current fluff, I question the direct connection between the AdMech and the Titan Legions. It would appear that they have a relationship more similar to the that of Tech Marines and the Adeptus Astartes chapters - a close working relationship, but no direct chain of command.

Though it's been very well sustained that the Explorator fleets are part of the AdMech, I doubt they have their own, separate set of ranks, but are managed by standard Techpriests, etc.

The chart itself is very busy, and difficult to read. It could benefit from some simplification IMO.

Hope that helps.

Minister
16-04-2006, 19:21
Although I was sure that Fabricator General was a single rank, not one duplicated across th eForge Worlds.

Puffin Magician
16-04-2006, 19:29
Minister: I figure it's like the difference between a 4-star General and a 5-star General within the Army ranks. The 5-star is the big cheese, but still needs "divisional representatives" of his might.

I had it like that before, but it was explained that in the Titan series from Black LibraryWhoawhoawhoa. I'd rather go with your gut/brain/senses than mix it all up because of some barely-canon fluff. Doesn't it make sense for the driver to eventually progress to the commander, and further up the ranks of the Adeptus Titanica? A Veteran Princeps would not be in command of a Warhound. The titan they serve would be a symbol of their rank.

Princeps = Warhound
Veteran = Reaver
Senioris = Warlord
Legate & GM = Imperator or Command Warlord

Moderati might have ranks of their own to justify them being in a Warlord compared to a Warhound. Personal preference, but I wouldn't flip your ideas upside down because a book [that I consider "iffy" in it's canonicity] says otherwise.

Maybe, but they still are servitors.That's true, but given their higher status I figured they were a branch of Cataphractarus or "chosen" Skitarii that were horribly injured and required a rumbling life support system to stay alive. While they're at it, why not make them revered members of the Cult Mechanicus and attach heavy weapons or combat arms to the chassis to further serve the Omnissiah? ;)

I think that your Collegia are a too specific and too numerous.I admit there are more in this chart than I can remember, although think about how many specialised fields of doctor their are. I remember having [specifically differentiating] definitions for:

Orbologist, Teledynamicus, Thermodynamicus, Graviticus, Genetus, Alchemys, Biologis, Physic, Electromagneticus, Theologin, Psykana, Exobiologis, Technicus, Astrologicus, Aeronauticus, Xenologis, Metallurgicus, & Cybernetica.

I question the direct connection between the AdMech and the Titan Legions... no direct chain of command.The Divisio Militaris is a huge branch of the Adeptus Titanicus - basically the military branch. It comprises of, to name a few, Skitarii armies, Centurio Ordinatus, Collegia Titanica, Legio Cybernetica, and [IMO] pretty much anything that isn't undergoing research [Divisio Investigatus], has to do with psychics [Divisio Psykana], or enforcing Imperial rule with the help of the Adeptus Terra [Divisio Mandati].

I'm working on a "revised" chart in Photoshop as we discuss, I could e-mail it once it's finished, should you so desire. Thanks for doing the hard parts! :p

Mechanicus
16-04-2006, 19:33
Intending no offense to you, Mechanicus, but your chart is somewhat difficult to read, and has rather a lot of personal extrapolation.I understand about the difficult to read, and I'm finding ways to simplify and make it clearer, but there does have to be personal extrapolation. The entire reason I'm asking for feedback is for evaluation on whether these are reasonable or not. If they're not, then I change it to suit the majority.


Don't get me wrong, I heartily approve of adding to the sometimes sparse GW fluff and it's clear that you've put some effort into this, but it would be helpful if canon were more clearly differentiated from your additions in subjects other than ranks. That way one could know which portions of the chart are "fixed" (in as much as GW fluff ever stays fixed) and which are open to discussion/interpretation. That is one of the many things I plan to update, but remember that most of these ranks came from the more reasonable parts of the Liber Mechanicus. I've had to decide whether they were canon or not. Unfortunately I have little knowledge on the origins of the Liber Mechanicus, and I have had no repsonse from my attempts to find the original. (Any help here would be greatly appreciated!)


In very general terms, however, I think that your Collegia are a too specific and too numerous. In my dredging through the fluff, I've only found about six specifically mentioned, and though I'm sure there are more, I wouldn't put the overall number as high as you have. I can provide sources for most, if not all, of the college cults once the next version is up tomorow.


In current fluff, I question the direct connection between the AdMech and the Titan Legions. It would appear that they have a relationship more similar to the that of Tech Marines and the Adeptus Astartes chapters - a close working relationship, but no direct chain of command.I'm not entirely certain about this at the moment, I'm checking what I can, but I've always been under the impression that since the Titan Legions have been around since before the Imperium and were made to defend the young Forge Worlds, and the legions are based around Forgeworlds, the relationship with them was nothing like the relationship between the techmarines and the Mechanicus, as the marines were never created by the Mechanicus.


Though it's been very well sustained that the Explorator fleets are part of the AdMech, I doubt they have their own, separate set of ranks, but are managed by standard Techpriests, etc.Well, in several short stories there have been Explorators, actual ranks, though they are assisted by normal tech priests, artisans, orbologists, logi, etc. One example of a short story containing these is Deus Ex Mechanicus, from Words of Blood.


The chart itself is very busy,
This is true, but there are many ranks.

and difficult to read. It could benefit from some simplification IMO.I am attempting to make it more user friendly, and most of the changes will be visible once the html version is up.


Hope that helps.Any feedback is better than no feedback. ;)


Although I was sure that Fabricator General was a single rank, not one duplicated across th eForge Worlds.As was I, but in the Inquisitor Campaign book, The Cirian Legacy, it is made clear that there is a Fabricator-General for each Adeptus Mechanicus world.


Whoawhoawhoa. I'd rather go with your gut/brain/senses than mix it all up because of some barely-canon fluff. Doesn't it make sense for the driver to eventually progress to the commander, and further up the ranks of the Adeptus Titanica? A Veteran Princeps would not be in command of a Warhound. The titan they serve would be a symbol of their rank.

Princeps = Warhound
Veteran = Reaver
Senioris = Warlord
Legate & GM = Imperator or Command Warlord

Moderati might have ranks of their own to justify them being in a Warlord compared to a Warhound. Personal preference, but I wouldn't flip your ideas upside down because a book [that I consider "iffy" in it's canonicity] says otherwise.
Fair enough. I'll have a look around, and I'll change the parts here for canonicity.


I'm working on a "revised" chart in Photoshop as we discuss, I could e-mail it once it's finished, should you so desire. Thanks for doing the hard parts!I'm nowhere near done on this, but sure, if you want to, go for it. Just so you know, I've been getting feedback from 2 other websites, and I'm going to be updating it for a while! It would be nice to see what you make of it, feel free to email it to me.

Puffin Magician
16-04-2006, 23:46
I remember nearly all of the Collegia from Tim H's AdMech codex [with a few left out, and a few I don't quite understand: Extremis? Prefectus?], but most are doubles: Adepts in the hierarchy having their own disciple/cult.

Which got me thinking that there's a minor flaw in the chart design. Why would, for example, a Theoretician of the Orbologist Collegia ascend towards Magos and Fabricator, while an Adept of the same college would be a Tech Priest and go into a completely different branch?

Either there is a wide difference between Theoreticians and Tech Priests [wide enough to warrant totally seperate field studies and "chains"], or specific Colleges take one in a seperate direction - the Tech Adepts end up with specific titles on the chart [ranging from Logis to Enginseer]. I think they should either merge, or keep the colleges seperate: ie: one cannot be a Magos Lexicanus since that College goes through the Tech Adept "branch".

That might be verbose and confusing, but it makes sense if you've been reading the chart for more than an hour straight.

Fair enough. I'll have a look around.
The Titan ranks are just an opinion of mine, it's sensible to me but whatever works for you... go for it. I'll also change "Fabricator General [of a FW]" to just plain "Fabricator" to save confusion. Fabricator Primus, perhaps?

If you want to, go for it.
The beauty of saving it as a .psd file is that I can [very] quickly shuffle things around and reorganize the chart. <3 Photoshop.

I wouldn't mind hearing what the other websites have to say about it too.

Chem-Dog
17-04-2006, 01:21
barely-canon fluff.

Released by GW, it's Canon enough. I personally would think that the Titan crews would be something of an elite formation, top guns with their own ranks and customs, they are entirely concerned with waging war on the behalf of the Adeptus Mechanicus and, although they would be answerable to the top brass (with the AM this is both a figurative reference and a discriptive one ;) :p) it would be via their own Commanding officer.

Just my 2 cents.

Puffin Magician
17-04-2006, 02:17
I've heard several things about BL novelists having a habit of contradicting the oldest [and "accepted" fluff] seemingly as if they have done no research on the subject. I haven't read what he's talking about, but it didn't make sense to me that a Moderatus would be stuck doing that same task for the rest of his life.

It wouldn't make sense for an Admiral to not rise through the ranks of the Navy, rather being in "Admiral school" since joining the service. If Grand Masters of a Titan Legion didn't come from "lesser" Princeps, where would they come from?

I'm not as easy going as Kage when it comes to the incorporation of the new with the old; not when it's nonsensical, at least.

As an aside, I've been working on my chart [with a few distractions thanks to IRC and reading fluff] for the entirety of my day, and I'm nearly finished. I've encorporated the other Divisions within the Collegia Titanica, but I've yet to place the Legio Cybernetica or Ordo Reductor.

Mechanicus
17-04-2006, 08:01
I remember nearly all of the Collegia from Tim H's AdMech codex [with a few left out, and a few I don't quite understand: Extremis? Prefectus?], but most are doubles: Adepts in the hierarchy having their own disciple/cult.Extremis is in the Necron codex, page 49: "I demand immediate representation before the Collegiate Extremis and repatriation to Mars, you have no right!" I take it to be some form of AdMech lawyer or police force. Prefectus is also in the Necron Codex, pg 32 "REF: AdMech/0192123298/IP
Author: Adeptus Prefectus Saul Magellan (Site Director)"


Which got me thinking that there's a minor flaw in the chart design. Why would, for example, a Theoretician of the Orbologist Collegia ascend towards Magos and Fabricator, while an Adept of the same college would be a Tech Priest and go into a completely different branch?

Either there is a wide difference between Theoreticians and Tech Priests [wide enough to warrant totally seperate field studies and "chains"], or specific Colleges take one in a seperate direction - the Tech Adepts end up with specific titles on the chart [ranging from Logis to Enginseer]. I think they should either merge, or keep the colleges seperate: ie: one cannot be a Magos Lexicanus since that College goes through the Tech Adept "branch".There is a wide difference between the theoreticians and the tech-priests. EG, the theoretician of the College Transmechanicus would be a lector or a magos transmechanicus and would be working on the theory of it, exploring new areas of transmissions and writing theses on the best way to achieve a signal using a certain type of aerial. The Transmechanic would be doing the mundane work sending and recieving transmissions.


The Titan ranks are just an opinion of mine, it's sensible to me but whatever works for you... go for it. I'll also change "Fabricator General [of a FW]" to just plain "Fabricator" to save confusion. Fabricator Primus, perhaps?Fine, I'll be keeping mine the way they are for now, until I find a way that fits both opinions, or I find some official fluff that says how it's done.


I wouldn't mind hearing what the other websites have to say about it too. 40kOnline (http://www.40konline.com/mos/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=714&topic=112230.0). The Conclave (http://www.specialist-games.com/inquisitor/forum_b/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7845).


As an aside, I've been working on my chart [with a few distractions thanks to IRC and reading fluff] for the entirety of my day, and I'm nearly finished. I've encorporated the other Divisions within the Collegia Titanica, but I've yet to place the Legio Cybernetica or Ordo Reductor.I'm still unsure on how to represent these; the Legio cybernetica would be made up purely of Magi and Tech priests of the Collegia Cybernetica. And isn't the ordo reductor just a legion of siege dreadnaughts? While I could put siege dreadnaughts in, where would they go?

I'll finish up the next version and have it up soon.

EDIT: Quick Question: Who wrote the Liber Mechanicus?

Puffin Magician
17-04-2006, 11:11
Extremis is in the Necron codex... some form of AdMech lawyer or police force. Prefectus is also in the Necron Codex... Adeptus Prefectus (Site Director)I did think about Extremis in the way that their position within the ranks had something to do with the upholding of AdMech ..."values", and the definition of Prefect is an administrative official. They seem a bit like seperate entities within the ranks rather than a Collegia though, by their very definition. Investigation pending!

There is a wide difference between the theoreticians and the tech-priests. The theoretician of the College Transmechanicus would be working on the theory of it, the Transmechanic would be doing the mundane work...That's true, but that means there's a lot more branches beyond Adeptus Primus that need displaying...

I'm still unsure on how to represent these... While I could put siege dreadnaughts in, where would they go?I simply have them as seperate "bubbles" containing a Magistrate, Cohort Legators, Magi and Techpriests of the Legio Cybernetica [also Metallurgicus and Munitorum for the Ordo Reductor], and Robots themselves within their hierarchy. I'd love to be proven wrong and find canon fluff about lots of this, but for now I'm just going with what looks and sounds appropriate.

And don't worry about people saying your chart is cluttered... as of now mine's a train wreck.

Mechanicus
17-04-2006, 11:35
Next version is up, and the link is here (http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/9830/admechranks3qt.jpg)!

Feedback needed...


I did think about Extremis in the way that their position within the ranks had something to do with the upholding of AdMech ..."values", and the definition of Prefect is an administrative official. They seem a bit like seperate entities within the ranks rather than a Collegia though, by their very definition. Investigation pending!Well, I'm not sure what to do with them, but I'm sure that extremis is a college, and prefectus does seem to be...


That's true, but that means there's a lot more branches beyond Adeptus Primus that need displaying...When I get told about them, I'll put them in!


I simply have them as seperate "bubbles" containing a Magistrate, Cohort Legators, Magi and Techpriests of the Legio Cybernetica [also Metallurgicus and Munitorum for the Ordo Reductor], and Robots themselves within their hierarchy. I'd love to be proven wrong and find canon fluff about lots of this, but for now I'm just going with what looks and sounds appropriate.Fair enough. For the moment, at least, mine's just going to be strictly what's in the fluff.


And don't worry about people saying your chart is cluttered... as of now mine's a train wreck.I tried to get mine a bit neater, and when copying and pasting into MS paint (Shame, but it's the only graphics program that I can afford :( ), it messes up the image.I'm down to compiling screenshots of it! :(

Puffin Magician
18-04-2006, 02:47
Well, I'm not sure what to do with them, but I'm sure that Extremis is a college, and Prefectus does seem to be...Oh I'll be using them, it's just a matter of where. They both seem to be theoreticians - I can definitely see an AdMech Administrator rising to Fabricator moreso than becoming a Techpriest of the same field; perhaps the more aggressive being Tech Adepts?

When I get told about them, I'll put them in!I'm referring simply to congruent names [Lexmechanic for the Lexicanus field] for the other Colleges. I think it'll be fun...

For the moment, at least, mine's just going to be strictly what's in the fluff.That's a problem I have with a chart such as this - there's barely enough canon fluff to intice our AdMech tastebuds and little to nothing more on the subject at all [Ordo Reductor; okay they have siege dreadnoughts, that's all? anyone's guess!]. I'm going to structure it with my opinions included - not only "new" Collegias that are sensible [other fields of engineering, basically] as well as naming structures for the higher-ranking Adept members. Trying to remain as fluffy as possible but still fitting everything together coherently.

I like what you've done to the chart, definitely cleaner. I also agree on the seperate branch for Cataphractarii and Sagitarii, although personally I think Ballisterai would be an "evolution" of Sagitarus members and a Skitarus Captain being capable of serving with the Collegia Titanica.

Mechanicus
18-04-2006, 07:27
Oh I'll be using them, it's just a matter of where. They both seem to be theoreticians - I can definitely see an AdMech Administrator rising to Fabricator moreso than becoming a Techpriest of the same field; perhaps the more aggressive being Tech Adepts?
The tech-priests prefectus would probably be the typical tech-priests, the ones with the unguent of clear thought, and being the most pedantic of people. The magi would probably be even more so, and their hadnling of large amounts of data would probably aid them to becoming Fabricator-General of a forgeworld.

The tech-priests extremis would probably be the AdMech police, with the tech-priests being the police and the magi being the judges.


I'm referring simply to congruent names [Lexmechanic for the Lexicanus field] for the other Colleges. I think it'll be fun...
I know, and since I started getting feedback from the ASP, I might do one fluff version and another made up of my own assumptions...


That's a problem I have with a chart such as this - there's barely enough canon fluff to intice our AdMech tastebuds and little to nothing more on the subject at all [Ordo Reductor; okay they have siege dreadnoughts, that's all? anyone's guess!]. I'm going to structure it with my opinions included - not only "new" Collegias that are sensible [other fields of engineering, basically] as well as naming structures for the higher-ranking Adept members. Trying to remain as fluffy as possible but still fitting everything together coherently.
[See above response]


I like what you've done to the chart, definitely cleaner. I also agree on the seperate branch for Cataphractarii and Sagitarii, although personally I think Ballisterai would be an "evolution" of Sagitarus members and a Skitarus Captain being capable of serving with the Collegia Titanica.
Yes, I can see what you're getting at. I'll see if I can find some way to link them up...

EDIT: Due to computer problems, next version not going to be up before tomorow, or possibly the weekend depending on how bad it is.

Puffin Magician
19-04-2006, 03:20
I'm currently wondering on how to organize the Skitarii - Collegia Titanica relationship. Skitarus troops are, sensibly, prerequisites to becoming a member of the Centurio Ordinatus/etc, but those organizations also have their own Tech Guard formations. Surely one would not rise through the ranks to become a Skitarus Tribune then be reduced back to a Hypaspist when becoming a member of the Adeptus Titanicus?

I got a headache trying to sort out all the lines and not making much progress with the sensibility, maybe I'll try again tomorrow.

Unfortunately ironic about your computer not working; consult an Orbologist at once! :p

Puffin Magician
22-04-2006, 02:32
+++ Updatus Majoris! +++

Okay, after slaving away a few hours every night this week, I've cleaned up and organized my scribbly sketches and several MSPaints into a cohesive hierarchical chart. It's a mix of Mechanicus', Tim Huckelbery's, as well as my own extrapolations and opinions on the "direction" of several sections. Here (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Puffinmagician/Imperial%20Guard%20and%20Adeptus%20Mechanicus/?action=view&current=AdeptusMechanicusHierarchy.jpg)'s a preview for those interested shown at 50% [which makes it look a lot cleaner than it actually is]. I've included a crude dictionary of what the various Collegia actually do, as I myself had to research into what Orbology or Teledynamics is, and how it would work in the 40k universe.

Edit: Seems that Warseer lets me upload the twohundredsomething kilobyte image as well as the tiny .txt file. Download away!

Mechanicus
22-04-2006, 13:14
Not bad!

Unfortunately, I'm working off a friend's laptop at the moment, so I'll be at least a few more days until I'm able to get the computer back up and running.

Nice to see some progress though!