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vcassano
16-04-2006, 20:07
Right two questions; probably very simple but on a fairly detailed look through the BRB could not be found:

1. Do kills from Stand and Shoot reactions count towards Combat Resolution?

2. If a unit (Chaos Knights for example) is hit in the flank but wins the resulting combat, can they bring models to the front of the opposing unit? Or do they simply stay as it is until the combat is completed?

Thanks,

General Samuel of the 101
16-04-2006, 20:26
1.of course not,is not combat per se
2.yes,you can redress ranks

Festus
16-04-2006, 20:46
Hi

1. No, but they may cause a panic test in the chargers.

2. No, if you are engaged into combat, no movement is possible anymore.
Exception 1: individual models may turn to face their attacker, although this is purely cosmetical.
Exception 2: Characters (not champions) in a non-fighting position may move into a fighting position in their own movement phase.

Greetings
Festus

Falkman
16-04-2006, 20:52
2. No, if you are engaged into combat, no movement is possible anymore.

Have they removed lapping around?

Xavier
16-04-2006, 21:02
You can only lap round from unengaged ranks as far as I can remember, I think it might actually only be the rear rank.

EvC
16-04-2006, 21:53
Does that mean you'd have the excellent visual of one knight sitting there with enemy in his flank, and another knight by his side facing the right direction?

Ja'ei'makiir
17-04-2006, 02:21
2. Since there doesn't seem to be a rule wording for this problem this is the way our game group handles it.
The model charged in the flank turns to face his opponents and then you expand frontage from the other models as if they were ranked behind each other.
SO- If you had five knights and lost none, the first is turned around and then the others "lap" to fill in the width of the unit.
Or in General Samuels words:
2.yes,you can redress ranks

However, width first, then lapping round.

Xavier
17-04-2006, 03:09
I always thought that regardless of whether you win or not you cant lap round or turn models around to get out of a flank or rear charge, even in subsequent rounds.

Mad Makz
17-04-2006, 03:53
Technically you can't lap around in this cas, you are stuck there. You can definitely NOT 'expand' frontage, as your frontage is already set. So by the letter of the rules you are stuck with 1 engaged model.

If this doesn't sit well with you then I seem to remember Gav at some point stating that it wouldn't be against the intention of the rules to lap around if you won combat with the a single ranked unit that was flanked, but that the rules simply don't offer a 'nice' way to do this. With cavalry, I'd tend towards allowing this to happen in a friendly game (but would discuss with my opponent). In which case I would leave the flanked cavalry model facing forward, and have the 'lapping around' cavalry models turn to face the enemy as they lap around. If the unit is then charged by another unit you can then easily redress the cavalry to a single rank based on the originally flanked models position. In terms of what lapping around is meant to represent I would feel this to be the most 'realistic' (for lack of a better term) method.

Festus
17-04-2006, 08:22
Hi

They certainly have not removed lapping round, but it is something entirely than redressing ranks.
You may not lap models from the fighting rank, IIRC. Or did they change that anywhere?

Festus

DeathlessDraich
17-04-2006, 12:43
1) I agree with Festus and Mad Madz on the interpretation of expanding frontage. To quote the rules:
"... models can be moved from the rear rank to the front rank".
2) Clearly this applies to a unit whose front rank is in combat and NOT flank or rear i.e. flan charged units cannot expande frontage even if there is 1 rank!
3) "Redress ranks" - is done after combat where models have expanded frontage etc, expires. Not the same as expand frontage.

Crazy Harborc
17-04-2006, 19:54
Isn't it stated in 6th Edition that a flank/rear attack stays one until the combat is over, as in one side is dead or leaves/flees the HtH??

Festus
17-04-2006, 19:56
Hi

Yes, that is the case...

Greetings
Festus

mageith
18-04-2006, 03:26
1) I agree with Festus and Mad Madz on the interpretation of expanding frontage. To quote the rules:
"... models can be moved from the rear rank to the front rank".

First the question was answered this way:
Q. Can a unit expand its `frontage or lap around to its rear or flanks? A. If a unit charged in the rear of flank still wins the combat, it may expand its frontage and lap around (i.e. by moving unengaged models from the `back of the unit). July 2002 Q&A

Then it appeared as this:LAPPING AROUND Page 77 Q Can a unit lap around to its flank? A. Yes, as long as it as unengaged ranks or files. Chron 04 112

So once GW said yes and then they said nothing.

Expanding frontage is a permanent formation change and so the final look of the expanded frontage must be a legal formation.




2) Clearly this applies to a unit whose front rank is in combat and NOT flank or rear i.e. flan charged units cannot expande frontage even if there is 1 rank!
Clearly? See above.


3) "Redress ranks" - is done after combat where models have expanded frontage etc, expires. Not the same as expand frontage.

Expand frontage is part of redressing ranks:
REDRESS THE RANKS "...affords the victors the chance to adjust their formation by expanding their frontage...." (76)

Also, you don't redress ranks after Expanding frontage. Expanding frontage is a permanent formation change. However you expand your frontage, you are stuck with it until you reform (unless you are skirmishers of course)

Mage Ith

DeathlessDraich
18-04-2006, 12:22
Well what a mess, Mageith!
I havent checked Chronicles 4 but if the Q &A is as you say it is, then it was answered without sufficient consideration. In fact the Q&A answers almost contradict the rule book, instead of clarifying it.
Ranks, expand frontage, lapping around and redressing ranks are all sufficiently, if not clearly defined in the rule book.
It explicitly states that, as mentioned before, to expand frontage or lap around "models are moved from the back RANK to the front RANK". This makes it IMPOSSIBLE to expand frontage for a flank or rear charge because in expanding frontage models are not added to a FRONT rank but actually ADDITIONAL ranks are created:

B has a smaller base size than A and flank charges A.
Before ...................... After
....................................... AAAA
AAAAAABB..................AAAAAABB
AAAAAA.........................AAAA
AAAAAA.........................AAAA

Combat resolution!!!? (Yes, I know no one would treat the Additional rank as such but my main idea is the problem of Front and Back Rank).

The diagram's not clear but it does depict the gist of my argument.

If A has only 1 rank, again expanding frontage cannot be done, without violating the rules as stated in the rulebook but looking at the 2004 Q&A, 1 rank does not apply.

If GW wants to allow lapping around for flank charges, as stated in the Q&A, then it has to include it as an ERRATA to the lapping around rules. The rule book is too definitive to encompass the 2004 Q&A changes for expanding frontage. The Errata should be reworded as "moving models from unengaged ranks into combat" instead of a definitive "last rank to first rank" AND then add an explanation for additional ranks created.

I'm not suggesting that I prefer one set of rules to the other but rules and its clarification/modification should not be contradictory. That leads to Chaos!

mageith
18-04-2006, 15:25
Well what a mess, Mageith!
I havent checked Chronicles 4 but if the Q &A is as you say it is, then it was answered without sufficient consideration. In fact the Q&A answers almost contradict the rule book, instead of clarifying it.

There are several rules answer that consider ranks and files as merely rows. (Cannons for example and lapping around). So are ranks considered rows for Expanding Frontage?




Ranks, expand frontage, lapping around and redressing ranks are all sufficiently, if not clearly defined in the rule book.

Maybe if there wasn't any additional stuff to muck it up. See above on ranks and lapping around.



It explicitly states that, as mentioned before, to expand frontage or lap around "models are moved from the back RANK to the front RANK". This makes it IMPOSSIBLE to expand frontage for a flank or rear charge because in expanding frontage models are not added to a FRONT rank but actually ADDITIONAL ranks are created:

Not impossible if ranks = rows and Frontage equals Sideage (as it seems to in the first Q&A). Of course, if it does, then what other words don't mean what they seem to mean. :)



I'm not suggesting that I prefer one set of rules to the other but rules and its clarification/modification should not be contradictory. That leads to Chaos!
Can't disagree there.