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pcx64
05-11-2011, 13:30
Hi,

I am new to space marines and I just had the codec. The layout and everything in it is awesome. This excites me further to make my army composition. I'm looking for a stable army group. Not the super power type and definitely not the super weeny type. I may not win every game, but will sure give my opponent (if frequently beaten) a hard time to win. Here is what I had in mind:

Space Marine Commander

Artificer Armor
Digital Weapon
Bolt Gun
Hellfire Rounds
135

Combat Squad

Storm Bolter - Sergeant
100

Combat Squad

Storm Bolter - Sergeant
100

Devastator Squad

Heavy Bolter (2X)
Multi Melta (1X)
Missle Launcher (1X)
Storm Bolter - Sergeant
160

Terminator Squad

Assault Cannon (1X)
Chain Fisr (5X)
255

I'm not sure if the Terminators are worth that much points. Any advise for me will be a great help. Please pardon me if I posted wrongly.

Critics and advise what to change can be great.

Rogue
05-11-2011, 14:44
Well, two things that I would do. I would go for two full tactical squads as opposed to two combat squads and a dev squad. With two full basic tac squads, you will have 20 troopers, two free heavy weapons, and two free special weapons for 20 points less. That is five more bodies which you proabably need more than heavy weapons. Two heavy weapons will work fine, given that vehicles will not be far and few between, and most likely not of the heavier type at this level. You can spend the 20 pts either on some toys for your tactical squad, or on something else.

I would go without chain fitsts and assault cannon with your terminators at the least. Your terminators are great as is, especially at this level. With the points saved here and above, you have 75 points to save. With that you can get another terminator and a Rhino for one tac squad, or both of your tac squads can ride to battle in style with five points over for an upgrade.

Both of these chages make for a more viable list at this level and at larger point levels.

pcx64
05-11-2011, 15:51
Will numbers be a big factor in Warhammer 40k?

In my simple understanding, futuristic wars are done more on firepower and less on close combat as opposed to fantasy.

Also, will dedicated transport have an effect on overall survivability and delivery of troops to the heart of the action?

With all due respect and appreciation to your suggestion, what other significance will your suggestion be against my earlier list? Are there any more members who can share some of their experience?

Please give more feedback if possible. Thanks in advance.

Rogue
05-11-2011, 19:53
Well you are correct in that shooting takes an important part of 40K. I would not state that either shooting or CC is better than the other, it depends upon a lot of factors. However let me put it this way, the Dev squad as you have it is putting all of your eggs into one basket. One or two good shots with the right firepower, and you have yourself no heavy weapons to deal with anything, let alone what shot at your dev squad, which defeats the purpose of a dev squad in that they are heavy weapons delivery systems. Even a shot that does only kills two marines, and you are reducing that unit emensely. Three and you are making some very tough choices on who to take off the board. The HB's and MM while are good, but not as versitile as ML's, and thus not as effective. This to me is where a dev squad would be either overkill or underwelming in a 750pts game.

The extra bodies that two tac squads will bring you will provide for more bullets flying with less punch as a pair of HB's, true, but more importantly they will be able to shield your heavy weapons from incoming fire. While less Heavy weapons in general, they will be more likely to last longer in the game. You will have the ability to have four combat squads, which means one extra independant unit to worry about and to deal with depending on the mission. Also in any game involving dice that I have ever played the more dice that you throw the more that statistics come into play and you are bound to hit something either in CC or shooting. It is that numbers are a factor but proabably not exactly how you think. As far as dedicated transports, it would give you perhaps an extra turn at the worst of not getting your troops not getting shot at and at the most will deliver your troops directly to your objective. Disrupting your opponant is another benefit of taking transports depending on the situation, and they have a storm bolter on the Rhino as well.

What I dont like with the Terminators is that you may be able to use perhaps one chainfist, but five chain fists is vast overkill when two is overkill in my taiste. Power fists are perfectly fine in taking almost all infantry in the game. You may see a MBT but not enough to justify taking five Chainfists. Assault cannon is just too expensive when you can get almost another terminator with it at this level. When you have enough points to make a full squad of terminators, or you really cant find anything else to spend 35 points on, then I would get an Assault cannon or ML.

In smaller point games, point efficiency is important given the expense of space marines, and I see you spending a lot of points on items that are either grossly overkill or not as effective. Hope that this is what you are looking for.

pcx64
05-11-2011, 22:15
I see, now I get the picture. Thanks Rogue for that wonderful insight.

In the Space Marine Commander configuration, do you find a Terminator Armor way too much compared to the Artificer Armor? The Space Marine Commander is the Space Marine Captain as describe in the Codex (if I understood it correctly), so having an Iron Halo will be redundant. Is this correct or am I missing something?

The Hellfire Rounds can be used only on boltgun as a rule. Can I take it literally as only for boltgun or it can be good also for bolt pistol (smaller version of bolters), storm bolter (resemble 2 boltgun attached side by side), and or heavy bolter (enormous version of boltgun)?

Also, will it be a better option if I replace the Dev Squad with a Dreadnaught instead?

Lastly, if both standard issue Teminators (Terminator Squad and Terminator Assault Squad) cost 200 and upgrading a Terminator Assault Squad can be overkill, will it have a significant impact if I change the Terminator Squad to Terminator Assault Squad instead? It lacks fire power though, but will it be compensated by the Melee Weapons?

Stinkfoot
06-11-2011, 00:13
Terminator armor is nice on a Commander as it comes with a power weapon, which is really a must on fighty HQ characters. At this level though, you're probably better off saving the points. I wouldn't buy Artificer armor either actually - it's better to keep your HQ cheap until you have more points to throw around. In fact, I'd skip the Hellfire rounds (which work with Bolters and Bolt pistols only, I believe). If you're going to take a Commander I'd recommend Relic Blade and Storm Bolter - that's two points cheaper than your current Commander and better in most ways. If you want an HQ that will be effective at range, a Librarian is the way to go. In fact, a Librarian is the way to go anyway. At 100 points they're already well enough equipped and come with a variety of useful psychic powers as well as the ever-important Psychic Hood!

Dreadnoughts as fun, but I agree with Rogue that you need to not put all your heavy-weapons in one basket. I'd say at least one full sized Tactical Squad with a missile is a must. If you really want dreadnoughts, I'd suggest replacing your Terminators with 2 Dreads. Dreads and foot-termies fill much the same role, so you won't be left with the anti-tank hole in your list that stripping the Devs would open up.

Regarding Assault Terminators - I don't really like them if you can't take a transport for them. They're scary in close combat, but on foot they're so slow that the enemy can usually just avoid them.

theJ
06-11-2011, 08:20
Well, let's see...



Space Marine Commander

Artificer Armor
Digital Weapon
Bolt Gun
Hellfire Rounds
135


I'd advice buying some kind of melee weapon for this guy - melee is where he's at his best, and ignoring armour is HUGE. If you're trying to make a strictly ranged commander, then I see little point in the digital weapons.



Combat Squad

Storm Bolter - Sergeant
100

Combat Squad

Storm Bolter - Sergeant
100


First off, special weapons are vital - far more so than the sergeants. If you want two 5-man squads for troops, then I'd recommend taking a single 10-man squad and splitting it in two at the start of the game. Admittably, going this path will require you to fill up with another troop choice.
Secondly, Storm Bolters aren't really worth it - an extra S4 shot on the charge will have little real effect. If you want to go shooty, I'd advice combi-weapons instead.



Devastator Squad

Heavy Bolter (2X)
Multi Melta (1X)
Missle Launcher (1X)
Storm Bolter - Sergeant
160


This squad needs two things:
1. Ablative wounds. You need a few guys to take the bullets that will inevitably be thrown their way. I'd personally recommend 2 heavy weapons per 5 models.
2. Focus. As things stand, the Heavy Bolters will be wasted when firing at vehicles, while the Multi Melta will be wasted when firing at infantry. The Missile Launcher is very nice though, as it is good against both (same goes for Plasma Cannons).



Terminator Squad

Assault Cannon (1X)
Chain Fisr (5X)
255


Five Chain Fists is definitely overkill. Chain Fists are mostly used against really heavy vehicles - of which you'll find few in small games, and even then, one or two is usually enough to get the job done.
Other than that, looks fine.


Looking forwards to an updated list :)

KingDeath
06-11-2011, 10:22
A librarian is perhaps the better choice for your army.
He is cheaper and his psychic powers will have a bigger impact on the
battle than a single captain with some hellfire rounds.
As others have already said, scrap the Devastators for now.
You can get roughly the same firepower with a much higher flexibility and more bodies if you take two full squads of tactical marines ( perhaps with melters and free heavy missile launchers? ) and combat squad them ( if you wish ).

Terminators are perhaps a bit much in a 750points game but if you wish to use them then don't put too many points into them

Just as a suggestion,

1x Librarian
2x full tactical squad ( with melter and missilelauncher in each )
1x 5men Terminator squad with assault canon or cyclone launcher
= 680 points
This leaves you enough for either a Predator or two Rhinos.

LonelyPath
06-11-2011, 11:19
I'd go with KingDeath and their recommendations here and taking those Rhinos for the tactical squads (combat squad and put the meltas in the Rhinos).

pcx64
06-11-2011, 12:35
Thank you for the feedback and suggestion. It really help me. I still have no budget for an upgrade, but GW is not that strict when it comes to proxy, right? Anyway, an updated list based on the suggestions that you have shared with me.

Space Marine Commander

Power Fist
Storm Bolter

128

Tactical Squad

Additional 5 pax
Flamer (1X)
Missle Launcher (1X)

170

Scout Squad - Snipers

Sniper Rifle (5X)
Missle Launcher (1X)
Storm Bolter - Sergeant
100

Dreadnaught
[list]
Heavy Flamer
Assault Cannon

125

Terminator Squad
200

Total Points = 743 / 750

My concerns this time is:
1.) Will Scout Squad be effective for firing both infantry in Heavies? I find it cheaper to field Heavy Weapons and low cost as suggested for a 750 point game. Any thoughts for the Snipers when it comes to efficiency and effectivity?
2.) Will Dreadnaught be good for both heavy support and assault unit?
3.) Will Terminator Squad be good or will it be redundant for with the Dreadnaught around?
4.) Can you criticize further about this composition?

Thanks in advance.

theJ
06-11-2011, 13:17
My concerns this time is:
1.) Will Scout Squad be effective for firing both infantry in Heavies? I find it cheaper to field Heavy Weapons and low cost as suggested for a 750 point game. Any thoughts for the Snipers when it comes to efficiency and effectivity?
2.) Will Dreadnaught be good for both heavy support and assault unit?
3.) Will Terminator Squad be good or will it be redundant for with the Dreadnaught around?
4.) Can you criticize further about this composition?

Thanks in advance.

1.) Snipers are at their best firing at high toughness enemies (such as wraithlords or carnifeces), due to them wounding on a fixed number. If there are no high toughness targets, they are best used against low-leadership (pinning) or elite (rending) targets. Don't expect them to take out units on their own, though. They are there to pin and pick off elites, not to win battles on their own.
2.) They tend to do very well at both, yes.
3.) They'll be good. I'd prefer having some sort of special weapon in them (even if just the heavy flamer), but they'll be just fine without it as well.
4.) You seem to have miscalculated a few things: I get the commander to 135pts and the scouts to 95pts (you could let the sergeant have a sniper rifle like the rest of 'em to take it down to a mere 85pts), bringing the entire list to a total of 725pts. That'd still give you a few points to play around with.

pcx64
06-11-2011, 21:52
Thanks theJ,

I realized I made a typo in the Sniper Scouts Squad. It should be:

Scout Squad - Sniper

Sniper Riifle (5X)
Camo Cloak (5X)
Missle Launcher (1X)

100

1.) Will the Sniper Scout Squad be a solid troop choice unit instead of the Tactical Squad? I'm planning an all sniper troop to free up more points and get more untis or additional troop on my existing list.
2.) How effective is the sniper rifle? Let say it'll be used against an opponent's Terminator unit or other high armored opponents, will it literally bring them down one at a time? Can you share some more regarding the beauty of the Sniper Rifle?
3.) I noticed the X on some weapons and I was refering to and from both the Codex and the Rulebook, but I can't seem to fin it. What does that mean?

I hope you guys don't mind too may inquiries.

KingDeath
06-11-2011, 23:12
Thanks theJ,

I realized I made a typo in the Sniper Scouts Squad. It should be:

Scout Squad - Sniper

Sniper Riifle (5X)
Camo Cloak (5X)
Missle Launcher (1X)

100

1.) Will the Sniper Scout Squad be a solid troop choice unit instead of the Tactical Squad? I'm planning an all sniper troop to free up more points and get more untis or additional troop on my existing list.
2.) How effective is the sniper rifle? Let say it'll be used against an opponent's Terminator unit or other high armored opponents, will it literally bring them down one at a time? Can you share some more regarding the beauty of the Sniper Rifle?
3.) I noticed the X on some weapons and I was refering to and from both the Codex and the Rulebook, but I can't seem to fin it. What does that mean?

I hope you guys don't mind too may inquiries.



1. Scoutsquads are a good way to cut some points yes but you should ask yourself if the aditional points are worth the lost tactical squad ( especialy it's special weapons and higher durability in the open). If you just wish to save some points then the barebones option ( perhaps with cameocloaks ) might be an idea. Get them to an objective and into cover, drop to ground -> enjoy your 2+ coversave
Compared to a full tactical squad you save 85 points which can be a tank, or a nice blinged landspeeder for example. Still, keep in mind that having too few troopchoices can be a liability.

2. Sadly sniperrifles on scouts aren't very effective. One reason is that scouts have a mediocre weaponskill, which means only 50% of their shots will hit at all. Of those only 50% will wound at all and only one third of the wounding shots will benefit from the rifle's rending rule ( included into the "sniper" rule ). That means it is quite likely that your entire scoutsquad's shooting will do nothing at all to the enemy.

3. X generaly means that the weapon has no given strenghtvalue but wound on a given value ( 4+ for example ). Sniperrifles and Dark Eldar splinterrifles are an example for this.

Gearhead
07-11-2011, 07:18
I'll throw in my own opinions.



Space Marine Commander

Power Fist
Storm Bolter

128



There's a bit of a hitch here. The powerfist is nice, don't get me wrong (I put it on my sergeants all the time), but it drops the Initiative of the captain from 5 to 1. That's not a huge deal on Sergeants since they can't be picked out in Combat, but characters can. There's very fuew things with I 5 and it's a shame to waste it. If you can find five points, you can get him a relic blade instead. You'll loose two points of Strength, but NO Initiative. Captains are the only unit in the book that can do that. I use a Librarian or Chaplain at 750 most of the time since Captains can get expensive, but if you're going to use him you'll need to make sure he gets the job done.




Tactical Squad

Additional 5 pax
Flamer (1X)
Missle Launcher (1X)

170



Cheap and simple, I use this squad a lot to squat on objectives. My squads typically have powerfists, but they're fine to leave at home at 750.




Scout Squad - Snipers

Sniper Rifle (5X)
Missle Launcher (1X)
Storm Bolter - Sergeant
100



I'm confused as to how many guys are in this unit, is it five, ten, or seven? Either way, the storm bolter won't see much use. Sniper Scouts are very good objective holders and need the heavy guns, particularly with the sergeant's added accuracy. I like Heavy Bolters in my Sniper squads (same range, more shots for infantry, hellfire for monsters), but I can see the missile working. I mean, it also comes in the box.



Dreadnaught
[list]
Heavy Flamer
Assault Cannon

125


I like dreads, but I do have a nitpick. When I make a list, I try to arrange it so I have either no vehicles, or at least two. The problem with having just one is that it attracts ALL of the enemy anti-tank fire, and they'll shoot it 'till it's dead. Dreads are good and make great fire magnets, but there's a fine line between a fire magnet and a sacrificial lamb.



Terminator Squad
200


That's a whole heck of a lot of points for five guys at this level. I have one list at 750 with terminators, and it has eleven. I'm not sure this is a great use of points here; you can get two land speeder typhoons, a second tactical squad, or even a second dreadnought with those points. They've got the powerfists sure, and the save is nice; but at the end of the day they're more guys chugging out bolter fire, and that's not something you're lacking. How are these guys getting around? Are they deep striking, walking? 5 points nets you a heavy flamer with these guys; it's not tank punch but it's a deepstrike threat that can make an opponent panic.
[/quote]



Total Points = 743 / 750

Dropping the storm bolters gives you a heavy flamer for the terminators and a Relic Blade on the Captain, if you have some spare points jangling around you might get some upgrades on the tactical squad. The plasmacannon is a pretty good buy at 750, it has the strength to handle most light vehicles and the blast and AP to take out elites (like your terminators).



My concerns this time is:
1.) Will Scout Squad be effective for firing both infantry in Heavies? I find it cheaper to field Heavy Weapons and low cost as suggested for a 750 point game. Any thoughts for the Snipers when it comes to efficiency and effectivity?
2.) Will Dreadnaught be good for both heavy support and assault unit?
3.) Will Terminator Squad be good or will it be redundant for with the Dreadnaught around?
4.) Can you criticize further about this composition?

Thanks in advance.

1.) Snipers mainly target monstrous creatures since their guns ignore toughness, when those aren't on the field they can pin low leadership units or target elites with rending. They're specialists, don't expect them to take out units by themselves.
2.) As is, yes. You've got a pretty good anti-infantry setup, though the cannon can put holes in light tanks in a jam. His real threat is combat, since he's immune to most infantry combat and still has the strength to flip a tank.
3.) That really, really depends. If you walk them, yes. Then you have to elite units just slogging it up the table. Putting a flamer on the Terminators and Deep Striking them gives you a unit that can surprise the opponent and force him to change tactics, or just solve a problem really quick.
4.) I already did :p.

theJ
07-11-2011, 07:58
Thanks theJ,

I realized I made a typo in the Sniper Scouts Squad. It should be:

Scout Squad - Sniper

Sniper Riifle (5X)
Camo Cloak (5X)
Missle Launcher (1X)

100

1.) Will the Sniper Scout Squad be a solid troop choice unit instead of the Tactical Squad? I'm planning an all sniper troop to free up more points and get more untis or additional troop on my existing list.
2.) How effective is the sniper rifle? Let say it'll be used against an opponent's Terminator unit or other high armored opponents, will it literally bring them down one at a time? Can you share some more regarding the beauty of the Sniper Rifle?
3.) I noticed the X on some weapons and I was refering to and from both the Codex and the Rulebook, but I can't seem to fin it. What does that mean?

I hope you guys don't mind too may inquiries.

1.) Only you can decide that. A scout troop is not as killy as your other forces, and can be somewhat situational, but they're also good for holding objectives (cloaks and range help a lot here) and cut down a lot on points (which is vital in small games).
2.) My experience with them is limited, sorry. I'd imagine they'll have quite varying effect overall, with them bringing down some really nasty stuff some games, and do virtually nothing in others. It's worth noting that the Missile Launcher rocks, though, and even when they fail to kill their targets, they should still be quite able to hold objectives, which is often worth a fair bit more than raw killing power.
3.) The "X" refers to the weapon not having a strength value. Usually (including in this case) because it wounds on a fixed value, and as such doesn't need one.

No, we don't mind inquities, in fact, we quite love 'em :)

pcx64
07-11-2011, 09:10
Thank you very much for the insights.

I learned a lot from all of your patience in explaining.

More power to all.

pcx64
07-11-2011, 14:58
Summing it all up. My final army would be:

Space Marine Commander

Power Fist
Storm Bolter

128

Tactical Squad

Additional 5 pax
Flamer (1X)
Missle Launcher (1X)

170

Combat Squad
90

Dreadnaught

Heavy Flamer
Assault Cannon

125

Terminator Squad

Chain Fist (1X)
Assault Cannon (1X)

235

Total Points = 748 / 750

Any last minute addedum / errata that I need to look deeper?

Stinkfoot
07-11-2011, 15:06
Not a bad list, though I liked your list better with the scouts rather than the 5-man Tac Squad. 5 Tactical Marines with no upgrades and only bolters will do a whole lot of nothing. A small squad of Scouts with sniper rifles can lay down some suppressive fire, camp an objective and shoot their missile. The latter isn't great, but it's better than what you have... Perhaps drop the Dreadnought's Heavy Flamer to afford it? I find I don't often get to shoot the HF at all, and even if I'm in range to shoot it I won't because I want to be able to charge and frying half the target squad will put me out of range.

I would recommend a Power Sword for your Commander, rather than a fist. One of the Commanders main advantages is that he strikes before other MEQs. Don't waste it!

Grand Master Raziel
07-11-2011, 17:03
Here's a few thoughts on your most recent list.

1: It's almost the Marine segment of what you'd get from Assault on Black Reach. Why not get that and work from there?

2: I have to second the notion that you don't want a power fist on your Captain. If you're paying for a power fist, you can afford a relic blade instead.

3: Alternately, if you went with a Librarian or Chaplain instead (Libby would be better), you can squeeze in a Rhino for your Tac Squad.

4: Make your second Troops choice a Scout Squad. Scouts may not be able to do all that much killing with sniper rifles, but give them camo cloaks and they can be very good at minding an objective. They'll be very hard to shift without either a heavy flamer or an assault unit. Alternately, you could field pistol+ccw Scouts and use them to harass enemy backfield units by holding them in reserve and outflanking with them.

5: The conventional wisdom is that you only want to field a Captain if you're running a bike list (SM Captain on a bike unlocks Bike Squadrons as Troops). This is not to say he's awful, because he's not. However, Librarians are generally considered as bringing more to the table because they bring psychic defense and some good utility powers (Null Zone and Gate of Infinity are usually regarded as the best ones, I believe). That said, the Captain unlocks the Command Squad, which is a pretty decent unit. Also, a SM Captain with a relic blade and a storm shield is both pretty killy and pretty durable. You don't want to run him up against a combat-crunchy special character, but against most generic things he'll serve you well.

So, in summation, here's what I think you should do for your 750pt list

1: Obtain the AoBR Marine contingent.
2: Replace the Captain with a Librarian.
3: Add an assault cannon and chainfist to the AoBR Termies.
4: Add a squad of 5 Sniper Scouts wt camo cloaks as your second Troops choice.

That brings you up to 730pts if I did my math correctly. You could sprinkle in a few upgrades. One thought would be to give the Sniper Scout Sergeant a missile launcher - the entry states any model can carry it, and the Sergeant has BS4. That'd leave you another 10pts. Maybe give your Rhino a pintle-mountes storm bolter (leaving it wt 2 storm bolters).

Also, seems like this thread should be in the Tactics page.

theJ
07-11-2011, 17:31
You've still miscalculated the cost of your Captain/Commander (whichever you want to call him).