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View Full Version : Minotaurs one of the "missing" chapters?[CLOSED]



Longtimelurker
06-11-2011, 06:51
An amusing little idea, more cooincidence than reality i feel but worth a look i feel!
Just been doing a little research on minotaurs. they all have that little spartan symbol on them the upside down V symbol.

I never knew the inverted V was Lambda, or the greek 11th letter.

whats the 11th first founding chapter? unknown....

possible? or not.

shadowhawk2008
06-11-2011, 07:24
Not possible. The HH books make it clear that the missing legions have been destroyed for some great transgression.

Also, the Minotaurs symbol is a thin bull head.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Minotaurs#.TrZDr7JafDw

The inverted V is the lambda only when capitalized. Otherwise it is more like an inverted Y.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_letter

Polaria
06-11-2011, 08:47
I am pretty sure the Minotaur symbol is supposed to be Lambda, because its a rip-off from spartans. Spartan shields had capitalized Lambda for Lakedaemonia, the name of their kingdom. As for the 11th Legion, I think being the actual 11th Legion is impossible (because they were destroyed). However no-one really knows what geneseed was used for Minotaurs...

Scalebug
06-11-2011, 10:11
Heh... bit of a conspiratorial stretch there... looking at the Minotaurs transfer sheets and Forgeworld line of bits, they have most of the greek alphabet there... Spartan reference as has been said (Although calling it a "ripoff" reeks of that sad but common warseer fear of being called a fanboi if you don't hate on GW at least a little bit in every post... :p)

If lambda is intentionally more prominent than other letters, it could more likely to be taken as them being the 11th chapter of their particular founding, rather than them being one of the lost Legions.

Lord-Caerolion
06-11-2011, 10:51
I am pretty sure the Minotaur symbol is supposed to be Lambda, because its a rip-off from spartans. Spartan shields had capitalized Lambda for Lakedaemonia, the name of their kingdom. As for the 11th Legion, I think being the actual 11th Legion is impossible (because they were destroyed). However no-one really knows what geneseed was used for Minotaurs...

Well, it isn't, because Forge World, the guys behind the rewrite of their fluff, show their symbol as the bulls-head.

davion
06-11-2011, 12:42
I have a completely baseless suspicion that the Minotaurs were created from modified World Eaters stock.
In any case, the fact that UltraMarines utterly hate them earns the Minotaurs some credit in my book. I just might build my first space marine army....

Lord-Caerolion
06-11-2011, 13:42
The old background did indeed hint about that, the new Minotaurs... not so much. Still, they're bloodthirsty, and have brass-coloured armour. Hmm...

SimonL
06-11-2011, 23:40
There was an old GW article about the Minotaurs being part of the 21st cursed founding, so they're definitely not an original legion. Their bloodthirsty nature was the result of the Admech trying to come up with better space marines. There were a bunch of other mutant chapters from the same founding too; Black Dragons, Sons of Anteaus, Lamenters, Fire Hawks, Flame Falcons.

MajorWesJanson
07-11-2011, 02:47
Missing Chapter? Maybe.

Missing Legion? Nope.

DuskRaider
07-11-2011, 03:07
I have a completely baseless suspicion that the Minotaurs were created from modified World Eaters stock.
In any case, the fact that UltraMarines utterly hate them earns the Minotaurs some credit in my book. I just might build my first space marine army....

I've also suspected the idea of Traitor Geneseed in The Cursed Founding Chapters, particularly the idea of Minotaurs being World Eaters descendants (albeit without the psycho lobotomization). It would make sense, as I believe the High Lords themselves requested the Cursed Founding, which would mean these Chapters are very hush hush, and to this day, Minotaurs still hold close ties to the High Lords themselves. I also like the ambiguity. Don't let it become what the Blood Ravens are now, let the fans speculate and push it in their own direction.

shadowhawk2008
07-11-2011, 05:23
The High Lords request all the Foundings. The lore says that only the Emperor can order a new Founding but since the big man is strapped to life-support and can't speak directly, the High Lords are his voice to the Imperium.

Mage
07-11-2011, 07:42
It would be funny if the Minotaurs turned ot to be from Ultramarine stock, as the Ultramarines and their progenitors (whatever the right word is) have sworn vengenae/comeupins against the 'Taurs.

DuskRaider
07-11-2011, 12:10
The High Lords request all the Foundings. The lore says that only the Emperor can order a new Founding but since the big man is strapped to life-support and can't speak directly, the High Lords are his voice to the Imperium.

Perhaps, but they also still enjoy strong ties to the High Lords. They answer directly to them, they do their direct bidding, and as such they're usually equipped with the best arms and armor that the Imperium has.

Mage
07-11-2011, 12:45
Not to mention accelerated training and being constantly near full strength.

New Cult King
08-11-2011, 02:30
For the ignorant (read: me!) why do the UMs hate on the Minotaurs?

Dhurrin
08-11-2011, 04:21
Not to mention accelerated training and being constantly near full strength.

Best equipment.
Accelerated training.
Always full strength.
Looks daaaaamn good.
What don't they have?! I love em!

shadowhawk2008
08-11-2011, 05:26
For the ignorant (read: me!) why do the UMs hate on the Minotaurs?

Don't remember 100% but the minotaurs nearly destroyed one of the ultramarine successors or something, or at least temporarily crippled them

Dhurrin
08-11-2011, 05:36
Don't remember 100% but the minotaurs nearly destroyed one of the ultramarine successors or something, or at least temporarily crippled them

As well as insulting Calgar and anyone who "fawns" over him.

Greyall
08-11-2011, 10:20
Best equipment.
Accelerated training.
Always full strength.
Looks daaaaamn good.
What don't they have?! I love em!


They don't have the least bit of mercy, even towards their brothers. :evilgrin:

I'd like to see a bit more on their vaunted malice, and especially on their Chapter Master, Moloc. They do reek of leashed Berzerkers, like a certain Legion of old, which makes me question why would the High Lords of Terra utilize such a dangerous bunch and risk the distrust (and wrath) of other Chapters. Then again, there was a similar view on the Space Wolves, at least in the Pre-Heresy times.

Arhalius
08-11-2011, 12:38
Aren't the Minotaurs basically legal Khorne worshippers or am i getting them mixed up with another chapter?

shadowhawk2008
08-11-2011, 12:42
How do Khorne worshippers get legalized?

Baragash
08-11-2011, 12:53
Aren't the Minotaurs basically legal Khorne worshippers or am i getting them mixed up with another chapter?

There's a few that might count. The Mortificators in Warriors of Ultramar have various blood rites that offend the Ultramarines for example. And there's the Blood Drinkers*.......

*I don't know if they actually drink blood ;)

Arhalius
08-11-2011, 13:13
How do Khorne worshippers get legalized?

Not legal but i think there a few chapters who like the Minotuars do seem to be bezerkers but its gets swept under the carpet by the High Lords of Terra.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
08-11-2011, 13:25
Also Death Cults are quite happily allowed to exist, and quite a few of them are just fronts for Khorne worship groups.

AndrewGPaul
08-11-2011, 14:06
I'll need to go and read IA10 again; I don't recall the Minotaurs being described as berserkers. The Space Sharks and Flesh Tearers yes, but not the Minotaurs. They're merciless, unforgiving and relentless, but that's not the same thing.

Sandlemad
08-11-2011, 14:14
I'll need to go and read IA10 again; I don't recall the Minotaurs being described as berserkers. The Space Sharks and Flesh Tearers yes, but not the Minotaurs. They're merciless, unforgiving and relentless, but that's not the same thing.

Yeah, not berzerkers. They just enjoy warring with other chapters, to the point of relishing conflict with other space marines because of it being a a good challenge and a particular kink of theirs (rather than doing it because they see whatever chapter they're fighting as heretics or whatever) .

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-11-2011, 14:33
It should also be noted that a chapter can relish combat, even close combat and delight in the carnage without it having anything to do with the World Eaters. What happens to a chapter after it's formed, the culture it develop, the world(s) it recruits from, the major battles it have fought, etc. are all going to be bigger factors in determining how the chapter behaves than what geneseed it's created from.

The 21st founding was an experiment to see if Space Marines could be altered and improved. In most cases it didn't work very well but the research project is likely still running and so naturally the High Lords would like to keep taps on it.

Voss
08-11-2011, 14:44
Aren't the Minotaurs basically legal Khorne worshippers or am i getting them mixed up with another chapter?

You are thinking of the blood angels.

Baragash
08-11-2011, 15:19
I'll need to go and read IA10 again; I don't recall the Minotaurs being described as berserkers. The Space Sharks and Flesh Tearers yes, but not the Minotaurs. They're merciless, unforgiving and relentless, but that's not the same thing.

The implication that they used World Eater geneseed is from the Cursed Founding Chapter Approved article that was in WD several years back.

shadowhawk2008
08-11-2011, 15:45
Well, if you call all berserker-type Space Marines to be Khorne worshippers then the list includes the Space Wolves, The Carcharadons, the Executioners, the Flesh Tearers, the Blood Angels and a whole bunch of others.

Chem-Dog
08-11-2011, 17:40
Not possible. The HH books make it clear that the missing legions have been destroyed for some great transgression.

Although it's being hinted that the Ultramarines took a great number of warriors from one or both of the lost legions. As the Minotaurs' Primogenitor isn't known, could be that they are spiritually descended from one of the missing two.


Also Death Cults are quite happily allowed to exist, and quite a few of them are just fronts for Khorne worship groups.

Well, the ones that are Khornate (or any other aberrant belief system) aren't generally tollerated. Severina and Sevora came into service to Eisenhorn after he investigated their group for signs of corruption.

shadowhawk2008
08-11-2011, 17:54
And Aaron has said before that that intended only as a rumour, nothing more.

Voss
08-11-2011, 18:55
Well, if you call all berserker-type Space Marines to be Khorne worshippers then the list includes the Space Wolves, The Carcharadons, the Executioners, the Flesh Tearers, the Blood Angels and a whole bunch of others.

I wouldn't go that far, but the overlap between the Khorne Berserkers and Death Company is a bit too much of a coincidence for my taste.

shadowhawk2008
08-11-2011, 19:18
Why would it be going too far?

And Khorne Berzerkers are all KILL!KILL and SKULLS and BLOOD. The Death Company is all KILL!KILL

Voss
08-11-2011, 20:48
and blood. Can't forget the lust for blood with the death company.
and of course, if warhammer has taught us anything, its that everything is about skulls.

I don't really think of the Space Wolves as berserkers, especially in their current form, which is why I wouldn't go that far. Ill-mannered, certainly, but the current codex is all about disciplined fire teams (just like vanilla marines, really), not hack and slash maniacs.

DuskRaider
09-11-2011, 01:46
The difference between Death Company and World Eaters / Khorne Berserkers is that the World Eaters had a choice, Death Company didn't. They degenerated into what they are, it has nothing to do with a conscience decision.

New Cult King
09-11-2011, 02:51
I've just been reading about them online. They have an awesome background, but I've been painting IW and GK - I don't think I could handle painting more Metallic marines :p

shadowhawk2008
09-11-2011, 03:20
and blood. Can't forget the lust for blood with the death company.
and of course, if warhammer has taught us anything, its that everything is about skulls.

I don't really think of the Space Wolves as berserkers, especially in their current form, which is why I wouldn't go that far. Ill-mannered, certainly, but the current codex is all about disciplined fire teams (just like vanilla marines, really), not hack and slash maniacs.

A Death Company warrior who either falls to the Red Thirst or who goes completely insane in the grip of the Black Rage is immediately killed by Astaroth the Grim, the Blood Angels High Chaplain. This duty extends to the Blood Angels successors as well.

If Lemartes was hungering for the blood of his enemies, Astaroth wouldn't have saved him.

Greyall
09-11-2011, 09:06
Following the definition of "berserk" by the book, it refers to a warrior fighting with uncrontrollabe, trance-like rage. One could say that explains why Minotaurs leave their Space Marine foes in a near deplete stade, but then, maybe that's all out of spite. Don't know which is worse.

Although, come to think of it, World Eaters weren't just about the blood, Pre-Heresy, right? Their love for overkill surely had something to do with their view on punishment. Also, they believed going to greater lengths than your enemy to achieve victory gave you an edge. In this combination, I see similarities with the Minotaurs.

Truth be told, only Imperial dogma prevents new chapters to be made from the geneseed of traitor Legions. Or would new marines "resonate" with the call of their Primarch?

Chem-Dog
09-11-2011, 11:21
I wouldn't go that far, but the overlap between the Khorne Berserkers and Death Company is a bit too much of a coincidence for my taste.

Overlap? Both angry and both wear power armour?
Death Company is an eventuality, it's a folorn hope, it's a way to gain an honourable death without falling into the madness and potential heresy that follows a loss of sense and reason. Death Company is an expression of the Blood Angels' resistance of that which the World Eaters embraced so willingly.
Even then, a compulsion is not the same thing as worship.



Truth be told, only Imperial dogma prevents new chapters to be made from the geneseed of traitor Legions. Or would new marines "resonate" with the call of their Primarch?

An interesting point. The Legions were built from material that the Emperor had even after the Primarchs themselves were lost. So one only needs to convince the powers that be that those designs weren't inherrently "faulty" and that the resultant Marines would not flip at their first taste of Tentacly gribblyness to get the green light on the project.

Problem is, I could imagine those chapters getting pretty heavily mauled by Chaos Space Marines should they ever find out (by smell, taste or some "other-sense").
Who knows, perhaps many of our fallen Chapters ARE actually successors to one of the Traitor Legions....

Greyall
09-11-2011, 11:57
Agreeing with Chem-Dog on the absence of similarities between Death Company and Khornate Marines, the conscious-choice is a game changer, here.

Regarding the Minotaurs, I fully assume they've been created using World Eaters geneseed - according to the 40K Wikia, what few reports exist on their geneseed brand it as "Chimeric", which in a Chapter created in the 21st Founding, hints at something disturbing.
Similarities (with Pre-Heresy WE, of course): preference for hand to hand combat, violent abandon when engaged with the enemy, frontal assaults, use of extreme force, disregard for the survival of their soldiers, heavy use of psycho-indoctrination and neuro-cerebral surgery (hint-hint?), bronze and red...

They have changed a bit as to their battle doctrine, as they now make more use of firepower and overwhelming numbers, but they still like to throw them punches, and this more "tempered" tactica is plausible seeing as they've been fully absorbed by the Imperial leadership.

DuskRaider
09-11-2011, 17:10
Although, come to think of it, World Eaters weren't just about the blood, Pre-Heresy, right? Their love for overkill surely had something to do with their view on punishment. Also, they believed going to greater lengths than your enemy to achieve victory gave you an edge. In this combination, I see similarities with the Minotaurs.

I think the thing to remember is this: World Eaters didn't necessarily enjoy butchering entire worlds, but they did it because it was their job, it was expected of them, and there were none better at it. I'm sure their implants and combat stimulants helped suppress their apprehension as well. I believe Kharn himself says something on the matter in one of the HH books.

Mage
09-11-2011, 19:27
Agreeing with Chem-Dog on the absence of similarities between Death Company and Khornate Marines, the conscious-choice is a game changer, here.

Regarding the Minotaurs, I fully assume they've been created using World Eaters geneseed - according to the 40K Wikia, what few reports exist on their geneseed brand it as "Chimeric", which in a Chapter created in the 21st Founding, hints at something disturbing.
Similarities (with Pre-Heresy WE, of course): preference for hand to hand combat, violent abandon when engaged with the enemy, frontal assaults, use of extreme force, disregard for the survival of their soldiers, heavy use of psycho-indoctrination and neuro-cerebral surgery (hint-hint?), bronze and red...

They have changed a bit as to their battle doctrine, as they now make more use of firepower and overwhelming numbers, but they still like to throw them punches, and this more "tempered" tactica is plausible seeing as they've been fully absorbed by the Imperial leadership.

While you have a well thought out link to the retconned Minotaurs, which I enjoyed reading, I think what is meant by 'Chimeric' is that more than one gene seed type was used, i.e., a Chimera is a mix of different monsters.

DuskRaider
09-11-2011, 20:16
Could've been World Eaters geneseed mixed with Imperial Fists or something...

Mage
09-11-2011, 20:17
An interesting mix, would explain why they are so messed up in the head.

DuskRaider
09-11-2011, 20:21
"We want to shoot them, but we want to kill them with our bare hands at the same time. Solution." ::beats enemy with Bolter::

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-11-2011, 20:26
Truth be told, only Imperial dogma prevents new chapters to be made from the geneseed of traitor Legions. Or would new marines "resonate" with the call of their Primarch?

Probably not. At least, I can't see any good reason why they should. Geneseed is just a vessel for moving what's essentially genetic manipulation into the body. It doesn't give you anything like precise mind control.

Of course, there doesn't seem to be any good reason to use geneseed from the traitor Legions. The Imperium got several strands of geneseed in good condition, so they got everything the need to create Space Marines.

davion
09-11-2011, 22:26
Perhaps a gene mix consisting of one part Word Bearer gene modified so that they are completely loyal to the High Lords.

Lord-Caerolion
10-11-2011, 01:06
Probably not. At least, I can't see any good reason why they should. Geneseed is just a vessel for moving what's essentially genetic manipulation into the body. It doesn't give you anything like precise mind control.

Of course, there doesn't seem to be any good reason to use geneseed from the traitor Legions. The Imperium got several strands of geneseed in good condition, so they got everything the need to create Space Marines.

Well, the problem being that several geneseed strains show hints at passing on psychological traits as well as physical. Just look at the paranoia of the Iron Warriors, the predisposition to masochism amongst the Imperial Fists, the inbuilt loyalty of the Word Bearers towards their Primarch, and, most famously, the Black Rage of the Blood Angels.

It may not give mind control, but there's certainly evidence that it predisposes those implanted towards the personality traits of their Primarch, which isn't that great in the case of the Traitor Primarchs.

Wyrmwood
10-11-2011, 01:25
I think the thing to remember is this: World Eaters didn't necessarily enjoy butchering entire worlds, but they did it because it was their job, it was expected of them, and there were none better at it. I'm sure their implants and combat stimulants helped suppress their apprehension as well. I believe Kharn himself says something on the matter in one of the HH books.
Indeed, it's in Galaxy in Flames. They (the World Eaters) must always go further than their enemies and do whatever is necessary to ensure victory. Kharn says something like it in conversation with Loken and Torgaddon, and Ehrlen elaborates somewhat in a brief exchange with Saul Tarvitz.

Back to the subject at hand. I love the Minotaurs, and the ambiguity present in their character and backstory - they're not the Blood Ravens, Thousand Sons in all but name. It was assumed that they had some connection with the World Eaters; either through use of Angron's geneseed or those implants.

Mage
10-11-2011, 01:55
@ Lord Carelion

Iron Warrior Gene stock never even occurred to me, but you are right about the paranoia part being an interesting link.

Voss
10-11-2011, 02:42
Perhaps a gene mix consisting of one part Word Bearer gene modified so that they are completely loyal to the High Lords.

Nice in theory, but you're talking about something that was almost beyond (arguably was beyond, considering how badly it failed) the abilities of the Emperor at the height of the Imperium, when Reason and Science were actually to be found. Postheresy, the AdMech would hold a seance, turn the laser scapel widdershins three times under a full atomic clock, and call the job a good 'un.


Overlap? Both angry and both wear power armour?

I was thinking more in terms of game statistics and traits- rage, Furious Charge, WS 5, etc.

[quote]Death Company is an eventuality, it's a folorn hope, it's a way to gain an honourable death without falling into the madness and potential heresy that follows a loss of sense and reason. Death Company is an expression of the Blood Angels' resistance of that which the World Eaters embraced so willingly.
hmm. I've always seen the Death Company as a failure to resist- giving in to the Red Thirst that they have had to resist since becoming Blood Angels. These are the failures, the ones who have given into the rage and bloodthirst, who no longer resist and the only way to expunge them is getting them killed in battle or locking them away to become monsters. The only 'success' story so far in Mephiston- he overcame it entirely.


Even then, a compulsion is not the same thing as worship.
As has been noted repeatedly times in the Chaos background, Khorne doesn't care. Worship is bloodletting and slaughter, whether its done _by_ the faithful, the innocent or the enemies of Khorne, or _to_ the faithful or the innocent. Its one of the fun parts of chaos- no matter what, playing the game means losing the game.

mob16151
10-11-2011, 02:53
So the Cursed founding possibly mixed Loyalist and traitor geneseed into some unholy hybrid

Sons of Anteus Death Guard/????

Minotaurs: World Eaters/Imperial Fists

Flame Falcons ???/Thousand Sons?

Black Dragons ???/Space Wolves

Lamenters Blood Angels/Emperors Children????

Fire Hawks UltraMarines/???

Anyone have any ideas on some potential mixes?

SimonL
10-11-2011, 03:07
Some of those connections don't make sense to me. The Sons of Antaeus for example are super tough because they have adamantium-reinforced bones, while the Death Guard are super tough because of Nurgle's Rot. Rather than Traitor gene-seed, I see the flaws as mutations

Hawkkf
10-11-2011, 04:23
The question really becomes are the similarities between the Minotaurs and World Eaters due to similarities in gene seed or similarities in training/induction?

It is likely that thier feorcity in combat comes from their indoctrination process like the pre-Heresy World Eaters came from the implants. My guess is that they were a secret project trying to create mind controlled marines. The high lords have different gene-seeds mixed trying to produce the right qualities and mix it with a bunch of different indoctrination methods. Probably through a bunch of trial and error, they come up with the Minotaurs, who have a hodge podge of a gene-seed and an indoctrination regiment that can take them as close to being besrkers without risking them turning to chaos.

When the cursed founding takes place full of a bunhc of chapters where they tried different techniques, they simply fold the Minotaurs into the mix without too many people thinking them out of the ordinary for that particular founding.

Now I would bet that they run a huge risk of turning to chaos. To avoid this, the high lords garauntee the Minotaurs the best gear as long as they report in and get thier indopctrination checked. Also, if the high lords supply the initiates, they are able to fully screen every candidate that can become a Minour to lower the risk of chaos taint. Also, by preferring to fight combat as a chapter, that means every apothecary and chaplain the chapter has are nearby at every engagement to ensure Khorne keeps his paws off.

To me it just seems like the Minotaurs are an attempt by the High Lords to make a loyal/controlled marine force. Which you can't blame them as the Ultramarines and Space Wolves alone control or have the ability to control a large amount of the imperium if they felt like it.

Saul
10-11-2011, 05:35
Isnt there a story about Fabius Bile having his hands in the creation of the 21st founding? Possibly in one of the Index Astartes books?

shadowhawk2008
10-11-2011, 05:39
@ Lord Carelion

Iron Warrior Gene stock never even occurred to me, but you are right about the paranoia part being an interesting link.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322841

Scroll down to where the different Samples are mentioned. You might find Sample Four to be of interest.

*The link is for the Deliverance Lost Spoilers thread in BL General Discussion*


Some of those connections don't make sense to me. The Sons of Antaeus for example are super tough because they have adamantium-reinforced bones, while the Death Guard are super tough because of Nurgle's Rot. Rather than Traitor gene-seed, I see the flaws as mutations

But the Sons still take enough punishment that could kill any other Astartes. The reinforced bones would only go so far, there has to be some internal chemistry at work as well. And that screams Death Guard pre-Heresy.

Also, in regards to the poster above you, I always thought the Salamanders were related to the Black Dragons. There is enough speculation about that and some of the passages in Kyme's novels actually do steer me in that direction although it is never stated as such. The Space Wolves cannot have any successors because their gene-seed is just too unstable without Fenris.

And how do the Lamenters end up having EC gene-seed? It has always been mentioned that they ARE Blood Angels successors.

The spontaneous combustion of the Flame Falcons does echo the Pyrae cult of the Thousand Sons if I am not mistaken. Which is really interesting when you think about it. That one I can definitely get behind.

Lord-Caerolion
10-11-2011, 06:01
And how do the Lamenters end up having EC gene-seed? It has always been mentioned that they ARE Blood Angels successors.

Yes, but it's also been stated repeatedly that they're the result of an attempt to "breed out" the Flaw from their geneseed. As such, they're at the very least using modifyed BA geneseed, if not Chimeric geneseed.

shadowhawk2008
10-11-2011, 06:06
Yeah, I'm fine with modified gene-seed, but not chimeric for the Lamenters. That would be daft. The EC anyway proved that they aren't flawless :P

Mage
10-11-2011, 06:07
@ shadowhawk2008

Thanks for the information. Very fascinating. It makes me think differently about geneseed and successor chapters and army ideas. I have to read that book!

I also thought the same thing about Salamanders and Black Dragons. It was mentioned in some of the Index Astartes articles (the ones dealing with how a space marine is made and genetics as oppossed to being about Legion and/or Chapters). Not up to date on the Salamanders series yet though.

Regarding the Lamenters it was always hinted that they were BA successors, but proven 100% true only recently with the Badab War book, I believe.

shadowhawk2008
10-11-2011, 06:13
They were always said to be BA successors as far as I can remember. Jim Swallow even mentioned them as such in his third BA novel, Red Fury. The only thing that the Badab books have really changed about their background as much as I can tell is that they are no longer free of the Black Rage/Red Thirst. The signs are finally showing so whatever modifications have apparently been made to their original gene-seed, have all regressed.

Mage
10-11-2011, 06:20
Ya I remember that now come to think of it, they were the only ones invited who didn't show up (Conclave of Blood or something?), and a few were worried they were goners.

I have wanted to do a homebrew chapter for a while, and while the whole traitor legion thing is cliche, I thought a very nice and conservative touch would be to have a codex chapter from the cursed founding who simply have either: (A) slightly shorter marines, or (B) their marines never grow too large (like in some novels there might be the odd giant of a marine in a strike force or something simlar). The idea is that it slightly hints at Alpha Legion genetics, but never to elaborate further upon it and leave no other hints.

shadowhawk2008
10-11-2011, 06:28
Indeed. It was a conclave of all the sons of sanguinius to decide the future of the blood angels chapter. IIRC, there were some other chapter banners that were unclaimed at the conclave, as in more than just the Lamenters were missing.

Mage
10-11-2011, 06:31
Good book all the same. Will have to finish the series, never read another in the series after that.

shadowhawk2008
10-11-2011, 06:39
I really liked Black Tide. Managed to get it signed by Jim at GD too :)

Mage
10-11-2011, 06:40
Black Tide, and Deliverance Lost to pick up it looks like then. Kudos on getting the signature.

mob16151
10-11-2011, 09:15
Some of those connections don't make sense to me. The Sons of Antaeus for example are super tough because they have adamantium-reinforced bones, while the Death Guard are super tough because of Nurgle's Rot. Rather than Traitor gene-seed, I see the flaws as mutations

Actually the Death Guard was known for thier ability to soak up ridiculous amounts of damage, even before they made thier deal with Nurgle. A theme thats been played upon by the HH novels.

Gorbad Ironclaw
10-11-2011, 17:55
Well, the problem being that several geneseed strains show hints at passing on psychological traits as well as physical. Just look at the paranoia of the Iron Warriors, the predisposition to masochism amongst the Imperial Fists, the inbuilt loyalty of the Word Bearers towards their Primarch, and, most famously, the Black Rage of the Blood Angels.

I'll give you the Black Rage. A genetic disorder that in some marines triggers a massive mental breakdown causing them to essentially go out of control. That actually seems quite plausible all things considered. It might also be possible to have other genetic defects that would lead to a predisposition towards other types of disorders, but it could also be attributed to culture and not have anything to do with the geneseed at all. Or at least not with the specific geneseed. Just the act of being transformed into a Space Marine is going to have a massive impact on aspirants mental state. Under those conditions it would probably be quite easy to create all sorts of disorders or mental conditions without having them hardwired into the geneseed. So if you have a culture that emphasises certain things due to the indoctrination it could quite possible be passed on as the accepted form of behaviour and so be self-perpetuating. All without needing any sort of behavioural dictates from the geneseed.

So the behaviour of the various legions might very well reflect idiosyncrasies of their Primarchs, but it doesn't have to be passed down through the geneseed.

Dogface
10-11-2011, 18:16
Minotaurs are the bullies of the High Lords. This is what I understood from their IA article:

First incarnation of the Minotaurs known for being violent and brutal, to the point where eyebrows are raised. These Minotaurs are either disciplined, refounded or have some sort of blackmail held on them (possibly their genetic parentage) by the High Lords but suffice to say they come out looking a little better, told to mind their manners a little bit.

Think of any gangster drama or movie where the upcoming young thug is told to chill out a little, put on a nice suit, to leave the streets. That's what I see happening to the Minotaurs. The High Lords still want them to be violent bastards but they want them to be 1) the High Lord's violent bastards and 2) they want them to clean up their act a little so as to not draw undue suspicion.

So you now have a bunch of power armored oprichniks serving at the direct behest of the High Lords. Although they're basically Terra's attack dogs the benefit to this arrangement is that they get the best gear and carte blance to fulfill their objects as they see fit.

War Angel
10-11-2011, 19:29
as they are principally notable for the fact that, beyond the last thousand years, most records of them appear to have been locked away under seals so tight even members of the Inquisition find them difficult to open. In addition, other records appear to have been lost or...mislaid.

This part interested me from their Lexicanum article. If even an Inquisitor has
a hard time getting to the files then they have something interesting. If the
traitor gene-seed theory is true the High Lords would be concerned that
if this is found out they could be declared heretics and be burnt at the stake.
Which is the only proper way to treat those specific "differently minded individuals." :evilgrin:


As the Minotaurs' Primogenitor isn't known, could be that they are spiritually descended from one of the missing two.
Is it possible for a chapter to be made from a non-First Found chapter? If so they
could have a lineage but not be directly from them. Kinda like grand kids
from the mean streets.


I think what is meant by 'Chimeric' is that more than one gene seed type was used
I read that in regards to a chapter on Lexicanum. I thought it was an error
but does that actually happen from time to time?



It may not give mind control, but there's certainly evidence that it predisposes those implanted towards the personality traits of their Primarch, which isn't that great in the case of the Traitor Primarchs.
If a chapter were to be made with Word Bearer gene-seed I think they would be
absolutely loyal to the Imperium. Lorgar wanted to worship the Emperor as a god
but was refused. This turned him to Chaos. Now the Imperium embraces the Emperor as a god
so that belief would be welcome and it would encourage the High Lords
to consider making a new chapter from them.

shadowhawk2008
10-11-2011, 20:21
A chapter can be created from a non-FF chapter. The Astral Claws had at least one successor chapter: the defunct Tiger Claws.

Mage
11-11-2011, 08:05
@ war Angel

Yes gene seed can be mixed I believe. The relictors were rumoured to be of dark Angels and ultramariens. Don't know if this has been retconned.

The executioners have spawned three I think successors, and the mantis warrirors are ansuccessor of a White scar successor, so any chaoter can spawn a successor if they are deemed worthy, and it's an honour. The astral claws also have two unknown successors.

Gorbad Ironclaw
11-11-2011, 15:23
Depending on how much importance you give to geneseed there are only really going to be nine different strains of marines in Imperial service anyway. What chapter donated the physical geneseed is going to be unimportant compared to what strain it's originally from.

SunTzu
11-11-2011, 16:23
Black Tide, and Deliverance Lost to pick up it looks like then.

If you're looking for more in Jim Swallow's Blood Angels series, Bloodtide was a GD Black Library chapbook and it's absolutely incredible. Occasionally still appears on eBay, not cheap but worth every penny IMO. One of the best short stories BL ever printed. Can't recommend it highly enough.

Longtimelurker
12-11-2011, 06:36
Could've been World Eaters geneseed mixed with Imperial Fists or something...


An interesting mix, would explain why they are so messed up in the head.

Funnily enough i came up with the same combination.

they are pretty much World eaters plus something else.

I came up with Fists due to the IA 10 book also talking about the mastery of siege warfare. we know who else is...

Oh hang on, i guess it could be a World eaters/iron warriors mix.

Awesome either way i feel!

Someone else asked about other possible cursed founding gene seed combinations.

The fire hawks i get the feeling are ultramarines (stated) and word bearers.

mob16151
12-11-2011, 13:33
Funnily enough i came up with the same combination.

they are pretty much World eaters plus something else.

I came up with Fists due to the IA 10 book also talking about the mastery of siege warfare. we know who else is...

Oh hang on, i guess it could be a World eaters/iron warriors mix.

Awesome either way i feel!

Someone else asked about other possible cursed founding gene seed combinations.

The fire hawks i get the feeling are ultramarines (stated) and word bearers.

I like it. Thats an Ironic mix right there.

DuskRaider
12-11-2011, 17:25
I can actually see why the use of Traitor Legion geneseed would be quite taboo and even heretical. Remember, the current Imperium is a very backward and superstitious lot. Is the traitor geneseed cursed or flawed? Absolutely not. In many cases, the geneseed is more pure than what the Loyalists are using now.

Looking back on things, you can see where the Emperor really screwed the pooch. Angron is really the best example. If the Emperor had simply helped him and this army defeat the planet's forces, I believe Angron would have been one of the most devout and loyal sons of the Emperor, and we'd probably have a vastly different Imperium because of it.

Mage
13-11-2011, 08:44
@ DuskRaider

I absolutely agree with you on that.

Can't understand why the Emperor never helped Angron with the battle, if could easily have been managed. I don't think the Horus Heresu would have been half as bad if Angron was helped. The World Eaters would have been a massive boon to the Imperium.

shadowhawk2008
13-11-2011, 08:58
What could the Emperor have done otherwise? He arrived after Jaggy K, Fulgrim, Sanguinius, Roboute G, Lorgsr and Corax united their own worlds after conflicts. It is an interesting to speculate what he would have done if these primarchs were also still caught up in their conflicts.

Morty is kindof the odd one out because the Emperor helped him, yet did not help Angron. I wonder.

Also a chapter descended from the Night Lords would be really cool, especially since the Eighth Legion didn't really fall to chaos like the other eight legions.

What if the Minotaurs are a mix of World Eaters and Night Lords?

Mage
13-11-2011, 09:53
I don't think it would have killed the Emperor to help. Least he coulda done was taken Angron's buddies too. Assuming Space Force 1 that carries him has any defence weapons he could have bombed the remaining army on the ground back to the stone age. It is interesting to think what he would have done. I'd imagine help.

I always wondered what motivated Mortarion during the Heresy Books.

I agree with you on the Night Lords. Terror tactics against Tau would be brilliant. Night Lords are more traitor marines than chaos marines imho.

Night Lords and World Eaters are an interesting mix. With the night lords only going into fights they can win or being overequipped (something I vaguely remember form the Index Astartes article) it would make sense, as the Minotaurs always deploy full strength (though this is more due to resources issued them by the High Lords). A relatively clean gene seed like the Night Lords could do much to prevent the crazy side of the World Eaters gene seed.

shadowhawk2008
13-11-2011, 10:51
Aaron mentions that in his novels and shows it too. The Night Lords will always fight on their own terms but if sometimes that is not possible, they can still perform as well as anyone else.

Mage
13-11-2011, 11:30
That's nice that the background piece, which is very in character, made it into the novels. Some fluff tends to get lost. Haven't read the night lords books... yet. Makes sense really, if you go into a fight make sure it is in your favour.

Lord-Caerolion
13-11-2011, 13:45
I'll give you the Black Rage. A genetic disorder that in some marines triggers a massive mental breakdown causing them to essentially go out of control. That actually seems quite plausible all things considered. It might also be possible to have other genetic defects that would lead to a predisposition towards other types of disorders, but it could also be attributed to culture and not have anything to do with the geneseed at all. Or at least not with the specific geneseed. Just the act of being transformed into a Space Marine is going to have a massive impact on aspirants mental state. Under those conditions it would probably be quite easy to create all sorts of disorders or mental conditions without having them hardwired into the geneseed. So if you have a culture that emphasises certain things due to the indoctrination it could quite possible be passed on as the accepted form of behaviour and so be self-perpetuating. All without needing any sort of behavioural dictates from the geneseed.

So the behaviour of the various legions might very well reflect idiosyncrasies of their Primarchs, but it doesn't have to be passed down through the geneseed.

That's all well and good, except for the cases we've seen in which Successor Chapters have displayed similar mentalities to those of their parent Chapter. We've also got the Night Lords Index Astartes, which outright states that the geneseed is responsible for the psychic visions experienced by some Night Lord sorcerors, and apparently for their paranoia.

On another note though, I have to say I disagree with the Minotaurs being Imperial Fist or Iron Warrior successors simply because they're good at sieges. Geneseed affects physical appearance and mental characteristics. It shouldn't be reduced to "oh, these guys are Imperial Fist successors? They'll be good at sieges then". Just look at the Crimson Fists and Black Templars to see it isn't entirely the case.
Dorn's geneseed causes the Chapter to lack the Betcher's Gland and Sus-An Membrane, as well as having a tendency towards masochism/an obsession with penance. Iron Warrior geneseed causes a tendency towards mutation of the limbs, and paranoia.

Mage
13-11-2011, 14:04
I think the Iron Warriors similarity being razed was their psychology of paranoia was simliar to paranoia of the Minotaurs, not so much the siegecraft.

I thought Iron Warrior bionics was only as a result of countering mutation being caused by chaos, not their own geneseed?

shadowhawk2008
13-11-2011, 14:40
They are like the Iron Hands in that respect re: bionics. Although I don't recall reading anything that says that they are that obsessed with the machine. However, Perturabo did have a close relationship with the Mechanicus so I imagine that if Horus had indeed won at Terra then Perturabo would be the new overlord of Mars, just as some people have speculated before that the Emperor's plan was to have Ferrus eventually take over the "administration" of the Red Planet.

Mage
13-11-2011, 14:53
I dont remember anything saying they were obsessed with the machine either.

Ferrus taking over the Mechanicum? Cool.

DuskRaider
13-11-2011, 15:08
I think it would be very obvious if a Chapter had Night Lords geneseed. They're unmistakable with their china white skin and pure black eyes... Charcarodons? Only thing is, you'd have some cursed with fits of painful foresight.

shadowhawk2008
13-11-2011, 15:20
The Raven Guard also have pale faces and black eyes. The Carcharadons could just as well be Raven Guard successors. The Carcharadons are also not part of the Cursed Founding last I checked, which is the only Founding which is supposed to have used traitor gene-seed.

IA10 says that the chapter's earliest mention is in a text from M32/M33 which is considerably before either the Dark Founding or the Cursed Founding.

Mage
13-11-2011, 16:12
No mention of Carcharodons having visions like the night lords in their Imperial Armour entry either.

DuskRaider
13-11-2011, 16:13
Yeah, I believe it's implied that Charcarodons have Raven Guard geneseed. Just saying that would be a telltale sign.

Mage
13-11-2011, 16:32
Oh yes, undoubtedly so. Still, there is little known on them, so it is possible. It would be interesting to see how it would go if explored in a black library novel.

shadowhawk2008
13-11-2011, 16:37
IA10 says that certain genetic markers in their gene-seed match those of the Raven Guard although it is not conclusive.

Mage
13-11-2011, 16:39
It could be gene seed decay, it could be anything.

Dhurrin
13-11-2011, 18:27
IA10 says that certain genetic markers in their gene-seed match those of the Raven Guard although it is not conclusive.


It could be gene seed decay, it could be anything.

I thought the speculation always was that the Carcharodons were the progeny of Corax's monsters?

shadowhawk2008
13-11-2011, 18:34
Considering that Corax personally killed all of them, that is extremely doubtful.

Longtimelurker
13-11-2011, 20:57
Considering that Corax personally killed all of them, that is extremely doubtful.

Hasnt this now been adressed/retconned in the new Horus heresy novel "deliverence lost"? whereupon they are known to the RG as the "raptors" and are basically Marines+

Ive not read it yet though so i cant confirm.

shadowhawk2008
14-11-2011, 03:09
Corax killed all of them once the Heresy was over. That's how it is stated in their IA article. Considering that the HH series is nowhere near finished yet, I don't see why it would be a problem.

AndrewGPaul
14-11-2011, 07:56
Dorn's geneseed causes the Chapter to lack the Betcher's Gland and Sus-An Membrane ...

As I understand it, it doesn't - those are defects which occurred after the Heresy. I don't know whether they're similarly lacking in the Black Templars, Crimson Fists and other Imperial Fists successors.

AndrewGPaul
14-11-2011, 08:03
I can actually see why the use of Traitor Legion geneseed would be quite taboo and even heretical. Remember, the current Imperium is a very backward and superstitious lot. Is the traitor geneseed cursed or flawed? Absolutely not.

I'm not sure about that "absolutely"; there are examples of various vehicle and weapon designs which are more prone to Chaotic corruption by their very design; it's possible that something in the genetics of the traitor Primarchs and their progeny which did render them more prone to corruption than the others. After all, we know that certain shapes can allow the entry of daemons into the real universe - what if certain proteins in the traitor Primarchs' cells formed such shapes on a microscopic level?

I'm not saying that it's as cut and dried as "Luna Wolves geneseed = Chaos", but the thought that the geneseed of the traitor legions is inherently prone to corruption might not simply be Imperial techno-superstition.

Greyall
14-11-2011, 10:00
The way I see it, a Daemon Primarch would notice the use of its geneseed on new recruits and, sooner or later, call to the new Chapter, the genetic connection making it very difficult for the Space Marines to resist. Which, of course, makes it doubtful that Minotaurs have Angron's seed in their code, but their IA states they're subject to severe neuro-surgery and psycho-indoctrination or something like that.

Things like aptitude for specific missions - like siegecraft - isn't, in my opinion, a genetic trait. Look at Black Templars, they're profoundly different from Imperial Fists, in terms of modus operandi. Minotaurs excel at siegecraft because they attack in force, deploying a greater number of troops than usual. And they do that because the Imperium provides them with fresh recruits and war machines after each campaign. Their genetic trait, as I see it, is their extremely violent nature.

shadowhawk2008
14-11-2011, 10:04
Uh.. there has never been a mention in the background that Primarchs can sense their gene-seed being used. Or that the primarchs control their space marines to the degree of being able to "call" to them. It sounds like wishful thinking.

Greyall
14-11-2011, 10:42
Hum...well, maybe it is a bit of a stretch, I was counting on the known link between a Primarch and those with his geneseed to be amplified by Chaos.

AndrewGPaul
14-11-2011, 12:04
What link is that? The Primarchs had a bond with their legions because they lead them, and were generally near-mythical characters on their homeworlds anyway.

Mage
14-11-2011, 20:00
If it were the case there were a bond then why did so many members of the Emperors children and world eaters not turn traitor at the opening of the heresy?

AndrewGPaul
15-11-2011, 07:32
Er ... because not everything is an absolute? :rolleyes: The loyalist remnants of the traitor legions were a minority. IIRC, they were also comprised of or led by Earth-born Marines, who would clearly have less hero-worship of the Primarch than someone who'd heard tales of their exploits since birth.

The fact that there were "counter-rebels" itself suggests that the bond between Primarch and Marine wasn't some psychic link or "blood calling to blood" to me.

Lord-Caerolion
15-11-2011, 09:39
As I understand it, it doesn't - those are defects which occurred after the Heresy. I don't know whether they're similarly lacking in the Black Templars, Crimson Fists and other Imperial Fists successors.

Yep, they're lacking in all Fist successors, it seems. It's definitely a problem with the root stock. We've already got that many Primarchs had faults and unique quirks, it appears that the "flaw" with Dorn was that he didn't properly form two of the organs

johnnyrumour
15-11-2011, 09:49
The exact history of the Minotaurs is unknown. The background in IA10 specifically states that while there is known to have been a Cursed Founding Chapter called the Minotaurs (reknowned for their brutal assaults), it's unclear if this is the same Chapter that took part in the Badab War.

Chimeric geneseed represents mixed sources, and while it's been speculated that this means Traitor Legion genetic stock it's obviously not known for sure. Nothing in the Minotaurs background indicates World Eaters, or Night Lords, or anything at all beyond the fact that they are brooding and paranoid when dealing with other Astartes, deploy in full strength whenever possible and have disquieting ties to the Adeptus Terra.

AndrewGPaul
15-11-2011, 09:55
Yep, they're lacking in all Fist successors, it seems.

Source? It was originally mentioned in Ian Watson's Space Marine, although that never clarified whether they'd never had the organs, or had lost them over time. Was it the Index Astartes article, or Codex books, novels, etc?

Other sources have mentioned that not all Chapters have all the organs - the only common one is the black carapace, obviously - and that it's usually down to degradation of geneseed samples over the last 10,000 years.


The exact history of the Minotaurs is unknown. The background in IA10 specifically states that while there is known to have been a Cursed Founding Chapter called the Minotaurs (reknowned for their brutal assaults), it's unclear if this is the same Chapter that took part in the Badab War.

Did the Cursed Founding Index Astartes article - or any other WD articles on the subject, for that matter - ever give any heraldry information?


Chimeric geneseed represents mixed sources, and while it's been speculated that this means Traitor Legion genetic stock it's obviously not known for sure. Nothing in the Minotaurs background indicates World Eaters, or Night Lords, or anything at all beyond the fact that they are brooding and paranoid when dealing with other Astartes, deploy in full strength whenever possible and have disquieting ties to the Adeptus Terra.

If they've got a reputation for being the Adeptus' "Internal Affairs" Chapter, I'm not surprised they keep their distance from other Marines. Then add in the Ultramarines' grudge...

I wonder how mixed the geneseed has to be to count as "Chimeric"; a mix of Ultramarine and Dark Angel zygotes is obviously so, but what about mixing zygotes from Sons of Orar and White Consuls? They're both Ultramarines successors, but they could be sufficiently different for their geneseed samples to be distinct.

Dhurrin
15-11-2011, 10:38
Source? It was originally mentioned in Ian Watson's Space Marine, although that never clarified whether they'd never had the organs, or had lost them over time. Was it the Index Astartes article, or Codex books, novels, etc?

if I recall correctly the Black Templar codex states that Dorn's progeny lacks the two organs.

AndrewGPaul
15-11-2011, 11:42
Ah right, cheers. I'll check that later.

Lord-Caerolion
15-11-2011, 12:16
As for the Minotaurs, yes, they're definitely the same Chapter. It specifically notes that they were originally the uncontrollable berserkers of their old fluff, but that their fighting style nearly destroyed the Chapter through sheer attrition, and then the Chapter disappeared for a while. Afterwards, they returned unexpectedly, having tempered their bloodlust with cunning. They're still berserkers in close combat, they just understand that running at the opponent while waving an axe above your head gets you shot. Instead, they hunt and stalk, before pouncing.

johnnyrumour
15-11-2011, 15:36
@Lord-Caerolion - no offense but you are totally wrong :)
@AndrewGPaul - the Cursed Founding article version of the Minotaurs were that awful red and yellow stripey colour scheme.

I quote from IA10:

"That there existed a Chapter of the name 'Minotaurs' created as part of the 21st Founding is not widely contested, but whether or not they are the same Chapter that took part in the suppression of the Macharian Heresy in the opening decades of M41 (and the same Chapter that would later go on to play a crucial and bloody role in the Badab War) is not so certain." from page 104.


"certain scholars of the Munitorium Collegia, who have studied the Chapter's actions, have noticed discrepancies between the Minotaurs Chapter of the present and that of the past, both in terms of structure and behaviour, and in matters of minutiae such as livery" from page 106.

Longtimelurker
15-11-2011, 16:33
Hmm after reading and re-reading it its hard to figure out if they were the same or are completely different.
usually theres hints but theres not much to go on in this instance.

I'd like to think they are the same chapter and after having drawn a bit too much attention to themselves,raising eyebrows etc, had to give in to the High lords or be destroyed due to someone finding out about their original geneseed.

Kinda like, "Do as we say or the Inquisition might find out you are world eaters"

Deff Mekz
21-02-2014, 06:43
I personally believe the Minotaurs are Iron Hands successors. If you look closely the two share some startling similarities.

- Their intolerance of just about everything.
- Their famous battletactics are both a direct use of sheer force.
- The Iron Hands Primarch has a nickname taken from Greek Mythology. The Minotaurs are named for a beast from Greek Mythology.
- Their ability to tick off just about anyone, including their allies, and sheer stubbornness against actually co-operating once in a while. :p

Polaria
21-02-2014, 07:01
I personally believe the Minotaurs are Iron Hands successors. If you look closely the two share some startling similarities.

- Their intolerance of just about everything.
- Their famous battletactics are both a direct use of sheer force.
- The Iron Hands Primarch has a nickname taken from Greek Mythology. The Minotaurs are named for a beast from Greek Mythology.
- Their ability to tick off just about anyone, including their allies, and sheer stubbornness against actually co-operating once in a while. :p

Your theory has merits but does not explain why the ancestry of the Minotaurs is so secret that Minotaurs themselves are ready to take on Inquisitorial throne agents and bury them in shallow graves (or shipwrecks as the case may be) and that the actual information on their past is sealed by High Lords of Terra with authorization even Inquisition has not been able to crack (yet). I mean when High Lords take a direct stance to prevent Inquisition from having something they want there must be some really strange things going on...

Deff Mekz
21-02-2014, 07:28
Your theory has merits but does not explain why the ancestry of the Minotaurs is so secret that Minotaurs themselves are ready to take on Inquisitorial throne agents and bury them in shallow graves (or shipwrecks as the case may be) and that the actual information on their past is sealed by High Lords of Terra with authorization even Inquisition has not been able to crack (yet). I mean when High Lords take a direct stance to prevent Inquisition from having something they want there must be some really strange things going on...

A good point, however I think the answer to that one lies in the Minotaurs background.

-They conduct tech heresies in both the way they induct new recruits and possibly around the continued "survival" of their chapter master and yet are incredibly close to the High Lords of Terra. Hmmm how are they getting away with that one... The High Lords wouldn't want the Inq. having defiant proof that they sanctioned such tech heresies, which might also tick off the priests of Mars too, now would they? The Inq. could use it as an excuse to remove them from their position of power.

- If we assume that the Minotaurs chapter founded among the 21st founding, and the present day Minotaurs chapter are the same chapter then something must have happened to the members of the Chapter to shape their new unshakeable loyalty to the High Lords and the Emperor. More tech heresy perhaps?

- I doubt the Red Hunters having such close ties to the Inq. is hugely popular among other space marine chapters, can you imagine if it got out that the Minotaurs had sworn oaths of fealty to the High Lords above all others. I would say their would be a fair few disgruntled people around.

- Personally I've also seen the big organisations of the Imperium such as the High Lords, Inq. etc; playing for power and supermancy over each other, the Minotaurs are just one of many cards in the High Lords hands, You wouldn't want an opposing player have information on whats in your hand would you?

Grand Master Azrael
21-02-2014, 08:48
One theory I've had: Minotaurs are neither one of the missing Legions OR successers to any CHapters. Maybe there was a secret reserve of Geneseed originally (but somehow it was made from multiple Primarchs). kept as perhaps a contingency by the Emperor to combat SPace Marine CHapters who stray from their path. So, maybe following the Emperor's plan, the High Lords used the Geneseed to create the Minotaurs.

Rufiodies
21-02-2014, 10:31
I think they aren't iron hands, but iron warriors. They love taking things from other chapters, especially relics and tech, they're straight murderous savage paranoid bastards, and they even have a labyrinth command vehicle, Someone else who loved mazes and labyrinths? Perturabo. They only operate at full strength, I don't see them as War Hounds or World Eaters, maybe a mix but definitely Iron Warriors

Kiarr
21-02-2014, 10:59
Minotaurs are the 21st founding version which the 21st founding were chrimeric geneseed (aka they have 2 chapters as parents not one) I know this for a fact after speaking to Alan at Games day last year! (unless of course he decides to change it as he could do) - during the time that they had been gone basically the high lords worked out how to contain their rage
Also other tips picked up were that none of the 21st foundings geneseed came from any chapter that turned in the HH
I am pretty sure from the reactions that I got I know at least one of the chapters the geneseed came from (they used to do the job the Minos now do)

I have a feeling that the High Lords have bigger plans for the Minos and the fact that the Minos are currently on a major crusade (if you look at the IA2 second ed map you can see the name of the crusade down by the orphius sector with the minos symbol on it)
Also the fact that the Minos have massive amounts of the best weaponry would indicate that they are being backed to do something major and as their records are so sealed and do not seem to adear to a lot of Codex rules could mean they are not nessiserily confined to 1000 marines (that and each time they tend to engage in anything they hit with at least full chapter strength)
Hinted at in a fair few IA books now is also their rivalry with the Ultramarines and the minotaur chapter master seeming to go out of his way to **** the Ultras off (so much so that Calgar himself has banned the Minotaurs from Ultramarine space) I personally wouldnt put it past the High lords to be planning on building the minotaurs up for a massive assault on Ultramar itself in order to regain direct control of the Sector, I could see it being a strike cruser or something being sent into untramar space in order to provoke the Ultramarines into attacking them and backing them up with massive amounts of troops when they are attacked effectivly outlawing the Ultramarines once and for all.

Although if the emperor does ever wake up the minotaurs being totally loyal will probably be used as a scapel to cut away anything that has happened that he would be angry with (corrupt high lords, sisters etc)

Rufiodies
21-02-2014, 12:38
Imperial Fist/Space Wolves? Super loyal space marine killers?

philbrad2
22-02-2014, 19:27
Threadmancy, if you wish to discuss the subject raise a new thread this one is going bye-bye. Closing


PhilB
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