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View Full Version : Anyone else think Trazyn is awesome (or hate him (heretic!))?



The bearded one
09-11-2011, 23:19
The Necron special character Trazyn the infinite has become one of my instant favourite 40K characters. After reading only the fluff bits from the WD battlereport I was sold. He's hilarious and I love his demeanour and the way he acts. So I was curious, what is your opinion on Trazyn? Awesome? Hate him? I guess he's very different from almost all other characters in 40K (especially Ward's characters) who tend to be really serious and/or epic and whatnot, while Trazyn is basically just mocking everyone in their face. I think he's hilarious and for that same reason I love Grey Seer Thanquol in fantasy.

azimaith
09-11-2011, 23:27
He's a silly character that fits in with the ridiculous mustache twirling antics of the new necrons.

In the old necron codex he would be totally out of place.
He's a good example of what the necrons have now become from what they were.

The bearded one
09-11-2011, 23:33
Amd what is your opinion of him within that context?

azimaith
09-11-2011, 23:36
If I liked the new silly necrons I would like him. I don't so I find him to be pretty much a stereotypical comedic relief/trickster type character, sarcasm and all. It doesn't appeal to me very much because I don't prefer my necrons that way.

In fact Trazyn and Imotekh are the poster boys for everything that's wrong with the new codex background in my opinion.

Tzeentch Lover
09-11-2011, 23:39
He is my second favorite character(after Captain Crazy and his Bodyguard). I love his demeanour and his espeically the way he flirts with Valeria. She keeps killing him and he comes back like, "Hey baby, you like to polish chrome?" :D

azimaith
09-11-2011, 23:40
Trapping someone in a extra-dimensional labyrinth they will most likely starve to death in is flirting?

The bearded one
09-11-2011, 23:42
That maze is a piece of wargear she actually uses in the GK codex :)

I love how he mocks her sending 5 regiments of Catachans as though it's a collectors gift for his diorama :D

azimaith
09-11-2011, 23:43
The fact you can describe one of the Necron characters, remember now who they were in the old codex, as "Captain Crazy" and it's an apt title shows you how wrong things have gone (in my opinion, of course.)

Korraz
09-11-2011, 23:49
I think he's nice. But his fluff goes overboard at a few parts. Stuff like Sebastian Thor's head is just not necessary.

Blink
09-11-2011, 23:50
I think it would be hilarious if she actually sent those Catachan on purpose. Seems like a strange army to send — jungle fighters into a metal tomb... especially such a small number of them.

Blink
09-11-2011, 23:50
I think he's nice. But his fluff goes overboard at a few parts. Stuff like Sebastian Thor's head is just not necessary.

I think you have it entirely wrong. 40k is all about these overboard things. More stuff like that SHOULD happen.

Voss
09-11-2011, 23:50
The fact you can describe one of the Necron characters, remember now who they were in the old codex, as "Captain Crazy" and it's an apt title shows you how wrong things have gone (in my opinion, of course.)

Heh. To me he seems like a more complex and interesting version of the Deceiver. They both have the mustache-twirling approach.

azimaith
09-11-2011, 23:53
More complex and interesting because of what? He hasn't done anything to make him complex or interesting. He's a trope, just like the Deceiver.

Blink
09-11-2011, 23:54
Yeah nothing really makes him more complex. I think the Deceiver had FAR more complex things to do than "Oh your primarch, yeah, me and him go way back, so how about you let me... you know... pocket him"

Revanchist13
10-11-2011, 00:03
I love Trazyn. I get that he doesn't fit within most of 40k, but that's part of why I love him. IMHO, he makes up for Draigo ;) I can just imagine him with the same voice acter who played HK-47 in Knights of the Old Republic :evilgrin:

baphomael
10-11-2011, 00:21
Personally, Trollzyn is possibly my new favourite 40k character. I love his trollish antics and obsessive compulsion to to collect obscure items and create mini-dioramas. A troll who likes to makes little soldier dioramas.... kinda reminds me of some of the posters on every wargame forum ever ;)

Minsc
10-11-2011, 00:25
Trazyn (and Zhandrek) could possibly end up getting into my top10 (and possibly top5) favorite char-list in 40k.

Not bad considering 2 weeks ago we knew almost nothing of their fluff, and the writer is...Mat Ward! *dun-dun-duuuuuuuh*

Enigmatik1
10-11-2011, 00:30
Personally, Trollzyn is possibly my new favourite 40k character. I love his trollish antics and obsessive compulsion to to collect obscure items and create mini-dioramas. A troll who likes to makes little soldier dioramas.... kinda reminds me of some of the posters on every wargame forum ever ;)

I freely admit, I lol'd at this mightily. Thanks! Trollzyn...that's epic! :D

As for Trazyn, he kind of reminds me of my avatar in terms of personality (although my avatar is a scientist first and foremost, much like Illuminor Szeras). I'm just now branching out into 40k and this guy just sold me on the Necron army. Being a TK player in fantasy didn't hurt their chances either. There goes my Haemy Coven out the window...thanks to one dude!

The fantasy side of me still has a great deal of disdain for fielding SCs, but this is one dude I can see myself breaking the proverbial mold for.

Blink
10-11-2011, 01:06
Except I don't think he "trolls"... He doesn't actively seek to **** people off for the amusement of it. He's just an avid collector and will lie to get what he wants.

Lazarian
10-11-2011, 01:15
This guys is the logical result of a 50 million year old art collector with super powers, whats not to love?

DJ3
10-11-2011, 01:16
Except I don't think he "trolls"... He doesn't actively seek to **** people off for the amusement of it.

Except Valeria. And potentially the entire Eldar race, now that he's sitting on a World Spirit.

Zahndrekh (or the combined duo of Zahndrekh and Obyron) are spectacular. It's awesome that he's full-on crazy but still such an amazing strategist that none of his superiors want to get rid of him, and Obyron is so unfailingly loyal that he just goes around covering up all the shenanigans his madness causes.

Anrakyr is great too--his little quote from Ka'mais is the best. He sticks to his little crusade no matter what, and even though his army is always on the verge of collapse, if someone has offended his personal sense of honor he'll go out of his way to destroy them no matter what.

Blink
10-11-2011, 01:21
Except Valeria. And potentially the entire Eldar race, now that he's sitting on a World Spirit.

What did he do to Valeria just to elicit a response?

Okuto
10-11-2011, 01:23
I like him.....just not in the necron book....he feels very off...

I think it would of been cooler if Dark Eldar had a character like him.....feels alot more in character.....

baphomael
10-11-2011, 01:36
Except Valeria. And potentially the entire Eldar race, now that he's sitting on a World Spirit.

Not forgetting his little altercation with Sicarius. "Yup, I knew your dad, I'm gonna go take his body coz I think it'd look rad on my mantlepiece, u mad, bro?"



What did he do to Valeria just to elicit a response?

She sent some regiments of catachan guard into his tomb-world, who get roflpwned, and he sends a message to her saying "thanks for your artistic input, I kinda needed another catachan regiment to complete my collection, but you sent a whole bunch! Cheers for that, and to repay that kindness I'm gonna post you a technological wonder that should trap you for all eternity in a pocket dimension... I'm sure you'll appreciate it if you get out."

Trolling is a art.

Blink
10-11-2011, 01:44
She sent some regiments of catachan guard into his tomb-world, who get roflpwned, and he sends a message to her saying "thanks for your artistic input, I kinda needed another catachan regiment to complete my collection, but you sent a whole bunch! Cheers for that, and to repay that kindness I'm gonna post you a technological wonder that should trap you for all eternity in a pocket dimension... I'm sure you'll appreciate it if you get out."

I think we have entirely different interpretations of that. Do you really think she would be stupid enough to send such a small number of JUNGLE fighters into a metal tomb, knowing exactly what they'd be getting into. And it's not like Tesserect Labyrinths were uncommon for the GK and Inquisition. He specifically gives her one with value only to a collector. It more or less seems they understand each other.

The bearded one
10-11-2011, 01:47
In the Imperial guard it's very common for expert terrain fighters to find themselves on completely unfit terrain, like catachans in urban warfare, or roughriders in the jungle.

What does the hyperstone maze that Valeria has in the GK codex do, btw? Because that very piece of wargear is the present Trazyn sent over.

Trazyn's response really just an awesome little thank-you-note. "Thanks for the catachans I needed for my diorama, here's a little present for you in return". His letter does indicate that the catachans acted like they're were some kind of invasion force, instead of a present ;) IG regiments do vary in size from a few hundred to tens of thousands, so it could have been a serious attack.


But man, I now have General Grievous in my head going "Your lightsabers will make a fine addition to my collection.." Near the start of the movie :D


His trolling at the start of the WD battlereport is great too.
* Imothek's guard hacks Trazyn in half *
* Guard turns into Trazyn *
* Trazyn wipes imaginary dust off his new body *
"Are we going to continue this all day?"

Yautja
10-11-2011, 01:52
Once I read his transmission to Inquisitor Valeria I knew I would have an army under his command. I'm writing out the list right now.

Voss
10-11-2011, 01:52
More complex and interesting because of what? He hasn't done anything to make him complex or interesting. He's a trope, just like the Deceiver.

An archetype, not a trope.

More interesting because he actually has goals. He isn't stomping the universe for the lulz, he actually has desires, objectives, opponents that can match him, and can suffer failures as well as obtain successes.

He actually has to function in the setting he is in, and can't just wander through the ants like a metaphorical giant

Blink
10-11-2011, 02:08
What does the hyperstone maze that Valeria has in the GK codex do, btw? Because that very piece of wargear is the present Trazyn sent over.

It's simply a Tesserrect Labyrinth. Both in gameplay and fluff. It's just one with collector's value. Again, it just shows he understands her. And it seems she would understand him, especially for sending specifically Catachan; a race who would be way out of their element to fight in narrow metal tombs on unfamiliar turf.

He's an amusing character, but I think people are going a little nuts over him. I like him too; I want to run a doubles list with him and Valeria and title it "Indiana Crones and Lara Craftworld: Tombworld Raider"
But it irks me that this character exists for the Necron. It really does go to show how little people care about diversity in this game though and only care about these quirky tidbits defining the characters. (Honestly, it wouldn't matter who this character was; Necron or not, if he spoke the same way, people would love him).

Blink
10-11-2011, 03:48
I don't think it's just a coincidence she sent him a force that would lead him to know she has the eye of a collector (which she does). If I were to bet anything, she wants access to get a good look at all his goodies and perhaps trade Pokeman cards.

Dhurrin
10-11-2011, 03:51
If I liked the new silly necrons I would like him. I don't so I find him to be pretty much a stereotypical comedic relief/trickster type character, sarcasm and all. It doesn't appeal to me very much because I don't prefer my necrons that way.

In fact Trazyn and Imotekh are the poster boys for everything that's wrong with the new codex background in my opinion.


Personally, Trollzyn is possibly my new favourite 40k character. I love his trollish antics and obsessive compulsion to to collect obscure items and create mini-dioramas. A troll who likes to makes little soldier dioramas.... kinda reminds me of some of the posters on every wargame forum ever ;)


Unfortunately that is what the Necrons have become, comic relief and trolls. And for that he fits in and is the epitome of what the Newcrons are.

Scribe of Khorne
10-11-2011, 04:16
I think he's nice. But his fluff goes overboard at a few parts. Stuff like Sebastian Thor's head is just not necessary.

I 100% guarantee Ward wrote that piece with a **** eating grin on his face thinking 'man this will get some people frothing at the mouth...'

I swear the man is paid to troll fans of the fluff. ;)

Chaplain of Chaos
10-11-2011, 05:17
As some have said it's despicable what they've done to the Necrons.

Isolated from the Necrons sure he's kinda interesting. As a Necron and as an example of the Necrons new "hip and cool" image he is vomit worthy.

What a cooky guy.

They should just gather all the Necron Lords and put them in sit-coms so that people can just get a good yuck over how interesting and easy to relate to they are.

Two and a Half Robots

How I Took Over the Galaxy

Sigh....

musical
10-11-2011, 05:34
"Indiana Crones and Lara Craftworld: Tombworld Raider"


:D rolling on floor with laughter

Rick Blaine
10-11-2011, 05:43
I think he's awesome and his trolling of Valeria is the best fluff blurb to come out of GW since the Ork codex at least.

Like any geek, I have an innate aversion to retcons, but the new Necrons are much, much better than before and their fate is so much more tragic now that they're actually aware of it. I also appreciate the overarching theme of their slow descent into madness, although it could be presented better.

Haunter!
10-11-2011, 05:52
I'm waiting for the Trazyn and Valeria buddy comics. The seem to have good chemistry.

feelnopain666
10-11-2011, 07:07
Stuff like Sebastian Thor's head is just not necessary.

I'm the only one that remembers that scene in Blackadder when they are selling relics?
"I have finger for Our Lord, it cost me 30 pieces of silver. Baldrick, you stand amazed."
"I am. I tought it only sells in boxes of ten!" :p

But on topic, its just silly, like the new path of necron fluff

azimaith
10-11-2011, 07:17
An archetype, not a trope.

More interesting because he actually has goals. He isn't stomping the universe for the lulz, he actually has desires, objectives, opponents that can match him, and can suffer failures as well as obtain successes.

He actually has to function in the setting he is in, and can't just wander through the ants like a metaphorical giant
The Deceiver isn't stomping the universe for the 'lulz' has desires, objectives, and has like 9 major adversaries who can match him in power (all the gods.) He suffers failures (like on Medusa V) and has success. They're exactly the same except Trazyn only fits in with the mustache twirling necrons.


I think he's awesome and his trolling of Valeria is the best fluff blurb to come out of GW since the Ork codex at least.

Like any geek, I have an innate aversion to retcons, but the new Necrons are much, much better than before and their fate is so much more tragic now that they're actually aware of it. I also appreciate the overarching theme of their slow descent into madness, although it could be presented better.They were always aware of their fate. The difference is they couldn't do anything about it. In this one they go beat up their gods. Its Draigo all over again. You can't have a Sysiphus tale where he pushes the rock up the hill then go gives Thanatos a wedgie and kicks Zeus in the face for daring. Ward is pretty much physically incapable of doing tragedy.

Chaplain of Chaos
10-11-2011, 07:40
I really wish all the people who like the current codex could have just.. I dunno... played and had opinions about a different army. Why couldn't they have just left the Necrons for us people who had an appreciation for the understated.

The fluff of the old codex while... ug "boring" to SOME people had a much more unified vision and elegance than the current trite dross that people are calling backstory. Necrons are just humans in space who happen to also be robots now. Great we have another empire building ancient alien race my goodness how generic. Why don't we wash the entire setting down and get rid of all the damn races aside from space marines.

Every individual unit can be lead by a special character with loads of special rules and you can open up the Codex's and they'll just be full of funny little blurbs about some over-dramatic monkeys spewing cliches at each other like internet trolls.


(my goodness I really am getting bitter about this, perhaps all the internet ranting is contributing)

Rick Blaine
10-11-2011, 08:15
You can't please everybody. I expect that most people will appreciate being able to relate to the army (that's what it really comes down to, in the end). Mindless killer robots can be fun for a while, but if you want to care about your guys, they need a personality. There's a reason why Terminator 2 is the one that people remember.

Nubl0
10-11-2011, 08:18
I think Trazyn just got you good. Just what he would want :D

Anyway the new fluff is not worse than the old, it's just different. It's given them much more "personality" and is full of little funny quirks. Just read the night sycthe fluff it's totally based on UFO abductions. The old fluff was alot more grim and dark but it was really just "codex Ctan and thier mindless robot slaves".

Blink
10-11-2011, 08:36
You can't please everybody. I expect that most people will appreciate being able to relate to the army (that's what it really comes down to, in the end). Mindless killer robots can be fun for a while, but if you want to care about your guys, they need a personality. There's a reason why Terminator 2 is the one that people remember.

I completely disagree with this. People play Tyranid without being able to relate to their models' personality; people play Magic: The Gathering without relating to the personality of their Planeswalker; people play Spin the Bottle and they don't even LIKE 7-Up.

I related far more to the Necron before; they were a selfish and tragic race imprisoned as shattered bits of humanity trapped within metal bodies and forced to unwillingly do the bidding of physical gods; something lacking in every other race in this game where people WANT to serve whatever gods' they have. Not to mention that they are laughable as a credible threat to the Galaxy anymore.

I loved the idea of having an army of silent masses who could only communicate their true desires through subtleties and those with enough humanity and free will left to silently convey it.

There's something to be said for "show, don't tell" when it came to Necron, and unfortunately, that is lost.

If you want to care about the personality of your guys, that could still be with Necron; but not like this... Not so hamfisted like this. If you wanted these quirky characters, that's what Humans and Orks etc are for... Not the silent metal slaves.

Scammel
10-11-2011, 08:42
(my goodness I really am getting bitter about this, perhaps all the internet ranting is contributing)

To be honest I think it's worth taking a breather when you start labelling changes to 40k fluff 'despicable'. As (somewhat justifiably) angry people may be, perhaps you're caring too much when you beleive it's morally wrong.

Personally, I can't wait for Trazyn and Ahriman to face off at some point, perhaps in a new Chaos book.

Commotionpotion
10-11-2011, 08:44
There is a sense of tragedy about the Necrons. It's just very subtly done - it's the fact that the whole race is suffering from a form of senile dementia. All those strange quirks and habits they display? All of them are symptoms of their encroaching insanity. The basic troops are described as near mindless anyway. Only the lords and leaders are still hanging on - and they're hanging on by a thread at best.

They want to reclaim what was one theirs, but they will never be able to do so, because time will eventually catch up with them, in spite of all their efforts to stop it. They are the shadow of a civilisation that doesn't realise it's already dead.

Whereas before they were just metal Tyranids. The whole 'devour the galaxy' thing was already being done by the bugs. To have Necrons doing the same thing - only in metal - was simply unimaginative.

Chaplain of Chaos
10-11-2011, 08:46
I see it this way. The people who didn't care for the old necrons are being catered to with this dumbed down trash. The people who liked the necrons and thought they had a unique niche in the setting are annoyed due to what seems deliberate pandering to the lowest common denominator. To top it off. They didn't even do it well.

Also you just spelled it out perfectly. They went from a galactic threat similar to the tyranids to a failing broken down race of senile and nostalgic old dudes whose inevitably failed goals include completly unimaginative empire building.

Furthermore you are being facetious, the necrons wanted to reduce the meat species to a harvestable crop of organic matter not just nom nom it.

RunepriestRidcully
10-11-2011, 08:47
^^^This, Trazyn is the first of ward's characters that I have liked, and I want to see a showdown between Ahriman and Trazyn, possibly over some kind of eldar artifact.

Blink
10-11-2011, 08:58
There is a sense of tragedy about the Necrons. It's just very subtly done - it's the fact that the whole race is suffering from a form of senile dementia. All those strange quirks and habits they display? All of them are symptoms of their encroaching insanity. The basic troops are described as near mindless anyway. Only the lords and leaders are still hanging on - and they're hanging on by a thread at best.

They want to reclaim what was one theirs, but they will never be able to do so, because time will eventually catch up with them, in spite of all their efforts to stop it. They are the shadow of a civilisation that doesn't realise it's already dead.

Whereas before they were just metal Tyranids. The whole 'devour the galaxy' thing was already being done by the bugs. To have Necrons doing the same thing - only in metal - was simply unimaginative.

Gah, no, they weren't like Tyranid before. Man people saying that is getting old.

If you really think they're tragic now, you need to study up on what it means to be tragic. About the only tragic figure here is the Silent King... and he kind of pulled himself away from that by coming back into the scene to fight off the Tyranid.

The tragic element of the Necron in the old Codex was still happening; the tragic element now has long past. They were victims to their own flaws before, but now all that rests on the decisions of one; the Silent King. And now that the C'tan have been subverted, they overcame that which made them tragic, and now they're just living in the aftermath. It's like when they make a sequel to a tragedy; the second is almost NEVER as effective as the first.

You are really grasping for something that doesn't really exist to say their actions are brinking on insanity. They act pretty much how other characters do in all the other races, sanity or not. Every trait you see in the Necron, you can find in someone with flesh.

xxRavenxx
10-11-2011, 08:59
Ward is pretty much physically incapable of doing tragedy.

The old necrons were not an ongoing story of tragedy either though. They lost too much of their personal identities for it to be a tragedy beyond the initial event. They didn't have a lucid moment every now and again where it floods back and they burst into tears for what they've lost. They were mindless. Entirely mindless.

The new necrons are a different story, but I'd honestly say more tragic in themselves. They know that they've lost the ability to touch, to feel, to experience their lives properly, and they long to reclaim it. They've lost less, and thusly lost more.

Blink
10-11-2011, 09:02
The old necrons were not an ongoing story of tragedy either though. They lost too much of their personal identities for it to be a tragedy beyond the initial event. They didn't have a lucid moment every now and again where it floods back and they burst into tears for what they've lost. They were mindless. Entirely mindless.

Nope, they had shards of humanity in them as said by the Codex itself and Xenology... And hell, for that matter I believe it was even in Nightbringer were someone tapped into the mind of a Necron and realized that they were still in there somewhere, but completely powerless.

And if you really think these new ones are more tragic, you need to brush up on what tragedy is.

Nothing in the new Codex says anything about caring for their ability to feel and what-have-you... Even the Flayed Ones, the obvious show-don't-tell desperate ones have been reduced to it being a mere disease.

Chaos Undecided
10-11-2011, 09:10
For some reason he comes across as a like a villain from a bond film to me, maybe he should have a cat....

titilititi
10-11-2011, 09:27
That guy is more sympathetic than most of all the 40k characters, even imperial or tau ... I find that foolish ! I would have imagined him as a cold bone collector, but that must have been too grim for children.

xxRavenxx
10-11-2011, 09:38
Xenology... And hell, for that matter I believe it was even in Nightbringer

So just to clarify, if its in additional sources, often written by other writers entirely, and not necessarily canon, you're fine with it?

I ask simply because I consider the necrons to be how they are in their codex, not how another writer decided on them.

What you seem to be saying, is that you like their expanded fluff as written by the author of a book. Not the original "We're mindless robots" fluff of their codex?

Thats fine, incidently. There's nothing wrong with liking one version over another. I'm just trying to get clarity.

Blink
10-11-2011, 10:01
Not the original "We're mindless robots" fluff of their codex?

The entirety of what you just said comes down to this. I don't care to debate what is or isn't canon, but even the Codex talks about how they have their humanity locked within them.

Blink
10-11-2011, 10:20
I don't have the Nightbringer book anymore, but if someone wants to check on this for me, please do, but page 29 of the old Necron Codex seems to have a quote straight from the book even with the tag "Excerpt from Nightbringer". I'd find it hilarious for that argument that the book wouldn't be canon and the Codex is, if the book was quoted in the codex itself.

Edit: And the next page has one from Deus Ex Mechanicus... Hahaha. I never noticed that before.

azimaith
10-11-2011, 10:20
The old necrons were not an ongoing story of tragedy either though. They lost too much of their personal identities for it to be a tragedy beyond the initial event. They didn't have a lucid moment every now and again where it floods back and they burst into tears for what they've lost. They were mindless. Entirely mindless.

Yes they did. They had identities, they just weren't literally spelled out for you because the codex had subtlety. They were specified to have them in xenology and the codex. They had lucid moments, hell, they had lucid existences. They had necron lords infiltrating the inquisition as inquisitors, the most secretive sect in the whole imperium. Can you even imagine how that could be accomplished being mindless.
"Ah inquisitor, it's good to see you."
"BEEP BOOP."
"Yes, beep boop indeed. Now I was looking into this activity of a rather strange celestial phenomena..."
"BREEP BOOP BREEEM *Click*"
"Of course! Why didn't I see it before!"

No, you're just repeating what the internet echo box has said a million times over, so many times people who don't know the actual fluff just accept it as true.



The new necrons are a different story, but I'd honestly say more tragic in themselves. They know that they've lost the ability to touch, to feel, to experience their lives properly, and they long to reclaim it. They've lost less, and thusly lost more.
They're mustache twirling villains whose time is mostly spent bickering with each other after beating up the gods who wronged them. There's nothing tragic about them at all.

Korraz
10-11-2011, 10:30
There is such a thing as an "Edit" function, Blink. It's a grand invention.
Use it.

And the stuff Trazyn pulls off at times is just too far overboard. It's less the Super Heroic/Villanic 40k Overboard, und more "Also: He's 2 kwl 4 skwl and shoplifted all this stuff and there aint nobody who can do **** about it." Typical Ward. Just a list of "accoplishments" with no explanation or ground in the fluff. And since it'll be gone in the next installment anyway and will never be referenced, you can safely ignore it if you want to.

Blink
10-11-2011, 10:32
There is such a thing as an "Edit" function, Blink. It's a grand invention.
Use it.

Hey person who obviously has more pleasantness in him than internal organs; look at what it says at the bottom of each of my posts. I was off digging through my Necron codex at the time, and didn't realize I was the last one who posted. Thank you for so kindly pointing out that I infact was.

Goodness. Some people. :rolleyes:

Haunter!
10-11-2011, 10:35
So an army of nameless, faceless slaves to star gods is better than the return of the galaxy's masters with various quirks and varying levels of eccentricity? Sorry, your book sounds boring.

Also, there's nothing stopping from playing your army as a bland collective of machines harvesting souls for the gods that duped them into becoming slaves.

Blink
10-11-2011, 10:36
So an army of nameless, faceless slaves to star gods is better than the return of the galaxy's masters with various quirks and varying levels of eccentricity? Sorry, your book sounds boring.

Yes sweeping generalizations do sound boring, don't they?

I'd say playing a credible threat to the galaxy (who even purged it of almost all life once before) sounds funner than "galaxy masters" who "ruled it" for MAYBE a day before going to bed for 60 million years for an ill defined reason.


Also, there's nothing stopping from playing your army as a bland collective of machines harvesting souls for the gods that duped them into becoming slaves.

Yes, that completely changes things. You had everything stopping you before from creating characters with various quirks and levels of eccentricities. There's absolutely no way your Necron could have been free from the reigns who used to guide them by means of waking up before their masters or their masters being devoured or MIA... Oh wait, I'm wrong. You could have, and people did.

People are more upset about the changing of the actual fluff.

azimaith
10-11-2011, 10:38
Sweeping ignorant generalizations especially.

Blink
10-11-2011, 10:46
Sweeping ignorant generalizations especially.

Yeah, Necron were rather misunderstood. Which is kind of funny to say because they even apparently wrote bad emo poetry on the walls of their tombs talking smack about (or rather expressing fear of) their masters:

"Death stands above me, whispering low
I know not what is in my ear
Of his strange language all I know
There is only pain and fear."
- Inscription transcribed from the walls of Cthelmax

I do find that kind of weird though, now having read that. Apparently that planet has population 0, so a Necron had to write that on a wall... I'm guessing it must have been a Lord since they have the most intelligence and would be capable of that... I just wonder what language it was in (or if it matters... Language doesn't seem to mean much in 40k)

Balerion
10-11-2011, 10:48
You whiners seem to be splitting a lot of hairs here.

Please, detail for me how the status of "shards of humanity" is so vastly different from "nearly mindless". Both are vague terms that have almost no meaning in the actual world we inhabit, and are therefore largely up to reader interpretation.

Saying the Oldcrons are "like the Tyranids" is exactly as fair as saying the Newcrons are "just another human race" or whatever argument you've been slinging.

Blink dancing around the "PROPER DEFINITION OF TRAGEDY!!!" has also been hilarious to watch.

azimaith
10-11-2011, 10:50
I probably shouldn't have snapped but that was like the 27th identical "hur dur, the internet tells me necron is mindless so they must be!"

But yes, as Cthelmax has no life and it's inscribed in a tomb, that would have had to be written by a necron. Who knows what kind though, according tot he Rulebook necrons all had personalities but they just were degraded from resurrection, the more resurrections, the more degraded. Since it was a long long time ago, it could have been anything from a warrior to a lord.

EldarWolf
10-11-2011, 10:52
For some reason he comes across as a like a villain from a bond film to me, maybe he should have a cat....

You had to say that... I'm going to spend the next few hours looking for a company that does a 28mm robot cat model! :D

azimaith
10-11-2011, 10:54
You whiners seem to be splitting a lot of hairs here.

Please, detail for me how the status of "shards of humanity" is so vastly different from "nearly mindless". Both are vague terms that have almost no meaning in the actual world we inhabit, and are therefore largely up to reader interpretation.
They never say shards of humanity in the codex or xenology, they show necrons with personality. They just aren't so completely overblown to the point of being caricatures. They do things, act on their own, write depressing poetry apparently.



Saying the Oldcrons are "like the Tyranids" is exactly as fair as saying the Newcrons are "just another human race" or whatever argument you've been slinging.

No it's not. Tyranids don't have individual personalities, necrons do. New necrons and humanity have individual personalities are they are almost identical.
The first is like saying toast is like chairs because both can't move on their own. The second is like saying ducks are like geese because they both have feathers, both live near water, and both have similar behavior.



Blink dancing around the "PROPER DEFINITION OF TRAGEDY!!!" has also been hilarious to watch.
Tragedy typically does not involve kicking the oppressor in the face and locking him in a box.

Blink
10-11-2011, 10:59
Blink dancing around the "PROPER DEFINITION OF TRAGEDY!!!" has also been hilarious to watch.

How about if you have a point to make, you make it instead of childishly exaggerating the context of my words?

A tragedy is, by definition "a dramatic composition, often in verse, dealing with a serious or somber theme, typically that of a great person destined through a flaw of character or conflict with some overpowering force, as fate or society, to downfall or destruction."

This would make the tragic character here the Silent King... who aborts his tragic state to come back now 60 million years later and fight the Tyranid. Before, the entire race was, by definition, tragic.

Forgive me for wanting people to use the word correctly. It's like when people say "we're in a recession" to describe that the economy sucks when that does not define a recession at all.

Edit:

Oh and instead of pejoratively calling people "whiners" and BARELY paying attention to what they're saying (nor caring apparently since you said: "or whatever argument you've been slinging."), contribute to the discussion to show where we're wrong with citing sources like WE have been doing.

Grimtuff
10-11-2011, 11:09
I think it would of been cooler if Dark Eldar had a character like him.....feels alot more in character.....

*cough* Lady Malys and the Panacea *cough* ;)

Rick Blaine
10-11-2011, 11:10
The tragedy of the Newcrons is spelled out for you in that character quote on the Flayed One page. I can't cite it ATM since I'm at work.

azimaith
10-11-2011, 11:13
The quote involves the Silent King talking about how necrons are inevitably fall to madness. It's not exactly touched on much in the codex beyond zandrekh and imotekh and really has a hard time being tragic when its so ridiculously comical in its portrayal.

Balerion
10-11-2011, 11:16
They never say shards of humanity in the codex or xenology, they show necrons with personality. They just aren't so completely overblown to the point of being caricatures. They do things, act on their own, write depressing poetry apparently.
The personality of the old Necrons was irrelevant, because they were wholesale slaves of the C'Tan. The specific aspects of that personality didn't matter because the Necrons weren't possessed of any personal agency. Their individual motivations, desires, talents, or flaws could not be expressed because at heart they were unshakably loyal servants serving for the glory and advancement of their masters.


No it's not. Tyranids don't have individual personalities, necrons do. New necrons and humanity have individual personalities are they are almost identical.
The first is like saying toast is like chairs because both can't move on their own. The second is like saying ducks are like geese because they both have feathers, both live near water, and both have similar behavior.
Well, unfortunately Tyranids do have personalities now, but that's beside the point.

Ducks are like geese because they both have feathers, both live near water, and both have similar behaviour. Oldcrons were like Tyranids because they were both presented as unstoppable, burgeoning juggernauts, they both fielded warriors acting in perfect accord with a master plan in which they had no stake, and they both commanded a frighteningly advanced arsenal of incomprehensible weaponry.

See what I did there? (In case you didn't see, what I did was show you a rational and extensive set of similarities which warrant a comparison between the general armywide themes and flavour of the old Necrons and the Tyranids). Lasering in on some highly-specific dissimilarity like "Necrons have personality, and Tyranids don't!" is completely missing the forest for the trees (or, more accurately, a tree).



Tragedy typically does not involve kicking the oppressor in the face and locking him in a box.
My main point was that by Blink's definition a toddler falling ten stories into a wood chipper doesn't qualify as tragic. What was the toddler's fatal flaaaaaaw?

People are clearly using the vernacular definitions of "tragedy" and/or "tragic", so trying to hold those claims to account versus a checklist of the defining qualities of an ancient and dead dramatic form is in bad faith.

But, to address your point, I don't see how declawing the C'Tan makes the situation of the Necrons any less tragic. They have still literally forsaken their humanity, and are experiencing an inevitable descent into incontinent senility.

Blink
10-11-2011, 11:19
I don't think it's exactly comical (that's just more of a matter of preference anyway), but it would certainly be more tragic if it involved their longing to return to flesh and time itself taking its toll... The fact that it is literally a disease that causes madness and a longing to strip flesh rather than such an intense longing is quite an opportunity lost.

Balerion
10-11-2011, 11:24
How about if you have a point to make, you make it instead of childishly exaggerating the context of my words?
See above reply to Azimaith.


A tragedy is, by definition "a dramatic composition, often in verse, dealing with a serious or somber theme, typically that of a great person destined through a flaw of character or conflict with some overpowering force, as fate or society, to downfall or destruction."
Yes, the dictionary is our Almighty God, and the first line of His definition is always the Most Rightest and Most Truest of all.

Alternatively, you could scroll down a few inches and absorb,

6. the unfortunate aspect of something
7. a shocking or sad event; disaster


Forgive me for wanting people to use the word correctly. It's like when people say "we're in a recession" to describe that the economy sucks when that does not define a recession at all.

Language is flexible and evolutionary. Try telling the parents of the toddler slurry that they have, technically, not experienced any tragedy whatsoever.

Korraz
10-11-2011, 11:25
So, you did not notice that several times? You can also delete your own posts. I do that several times a day.

I wanted to say more, but Balerion made all my points.

Blink
10-11-2011, 11:27
My main point was that by Blink's definition a toddler falling ten stories into a wood chipper doesn't qualify as tragic. What was the toddler's fatal flaaaaaaw?

Why are you dragging out the a in flaw? Are you incapable or just unwilling to make a valid argument without exaggeration of some kind?"

Anyway, by the definition you want to use it, neither race are very tragic (if by tragic, you mean "inspires sadness"). This one gained what they wanted and overcame those who oppressed them AND those they sought to defeat. If the metal bodies are such a bad thing, it's certainly understated in the new codex... The Silent King, on the other hand, was sorrowful and felt like he failed his race. He is the tragic figure.

Haunter!
10-11-2011, 11:28
Sweeping ignorant generalizations especially.

So sorry that I didn't read between every line of the old codex and decipher its meaning like it were classic poetry.

You two seem very determined to hate the new fluff because it's something other than "OOoooOOOOooo, the Necron are mysteeeeeerious!" The old codex definitely had some neat short stories, but there was very little from the Necron perspective. The chief reason for this was because they were simply cold, logical machines. Sure they -may- have had a flicker of what they once were deep in their metal husks, but that was always inconsequential. Logic trumps feelings, harvest for the C'tan, all life must be extinguished. While it's true the lords may have held some semblance of a sentient mind, they were still a slave chained to the will of the C'tan.

Look at what we have now that we didn't have before. We got a glimpse of the Necrontyr society that was more than "they lived short, miserable lives and hated the Old Ones because they lived long, comfortable ones." We got to see a to see a little bit about their social social structure and hierarchy for one. We also got to see the effect of awakening to the newly repopulated galaxy on different characters as well. Some approach it with the mentality to subjugate (such as Imotekh) while others approach with fractured minds (like our good buddy Zandrekh). This really gives us an actual look at the minds of the Necron in their current form. Think of the special characters as samples of what you could possibly do for your own Overlord instead of That-one-guy-that-I-don't-like-because-being-a-smartass-isn't-grimdark-enough-for-me-mom-I-need-you-to-buy-me-more-black-nail-polish-while-I-brood-and-write-on-my-livejournal-about-how-life-is-unfair-and-no-one-understands-me.


And just in case you didn't bother to read that: Stop pretending the old codex was deep and profound and stop hating fun.

azimaith
10-11-2011, 11:29
The personality of the old Necrons was irrelevant, because they were wholesale slaves of the C'Tan. The specific aspects of that personality didn't matter because the Necrons weren't possessed of any personal agency. Their individual motivations, desires, talents, or flaws could not be expressed because at heart they were unshakably loyal servants serving for the glory and advancement of their masters.

They weren't controlled hive mind style. A slave can have personality and still be a slave, but ultimately he has to do what the master wants. Ultimately Ahriman is shackled to the will of Tzeentch, Kharn to Khorne, Typhus to Nurgle, Lucius to Slaanesh, but all can have personalities before they aren't being Mass Effect 2 style "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" slaves.



Well, unfortunately Tyranids do have personalities now, but that's beside the point.

Ducks are like geese because they both have feathers, both live near water, and both have similar behaviour. Oldcrons were like Tyranids because they were both presented as unstoppable, burgeoning juggernauts, they both fielded warriors acting in perfect accord with a master plan in which they had no stake, and they both commanded a frighteningly advanced arsenal of incomprehensible weaponry.

Tyranids were literally controlled, like marionettes, necrons had purview of their own functions, but had to participate in the battle. It is totally different in the same way that modern soldiers must follow the chain of command but can act independently within their structure. Necron's weren't "unstoppable" in the same way either. Tyranids just came at you, endlessly. Necrons would appear from nowhere, attack from angles they should have never been able to reach. Both are relentless but their methods are entirely different. By this argument Imperial Guard are identical because they're an unstoppable, burgeoning juggernaut, with warriors acting in accordance with their masters plan (the structure of the Imperial Guard) in battles which they had absolutely no stake, and had an frighteningly advanced arsenal.



See what I did there? (In case you didn't see, what I did was show you a rational and extensive set of similarities which warrant a comparison between the general armywide themes and flavour of the old Necrons and the Tyranids). Lasering in on some highly-specific dissimilarity like "Necrons have personality, and Tyranids don't!" is completely missing the forest for the trees (or, more accurately, a tree).

What you did was ignore all the things that make them different in that aspect. It's not about missing the forest for the tree's, its the understanding that a tree is not a forest, and that a copse of pines is not a forest of oak trees. Similarities are shared between every single race in the game, but all have specific difference which set them apart. You just ignored the differences to focus on the very broad similarities which are also shared by many armies.



My main point was that by Blink's definition a toddler falling ten stories into a wood chipper doesn't qualify as tragic. What was the toddler's fatal flaaaaaaw?

It isn't tragedy as we are using it, which is a reference to a type of theme in literature or similar form of entertainment medium. A toddler falling into a woodchipper is not a tragedy. You can't make a play about a toddler falling into a woodchipper and call it a tragedy unless the events that led up to it spawn from some kind of mistake, flaw, or other issue that a character made or had. Since were referring to writing, I don't see why you'd waste the time comparing tragedy in its colloquial meaning to the actual technical term which is imminently appropriate for the topic at hand.


People are clearly using the vernacular definitions of "tragedy" and/or "tragic", so trying to hold those claims to account versus a checklist of the defining qualities of an ancient and dead dramatic form is in bad faith.

No they're not. They're referring to writing, tragic writing specifically.



But, to address your point, I don't see how declawing the C'Tan makes the situation of the Necrons any less tragic. They have still literally forsaken their humanity, and are experiencing an inevitable descent into incontinent senility.
1, because their descent into incontinent senility is hilariously potrayed in the worst mustache twirling mad-cap James Bond villain fashion which makes it not a tragic, but rather comedic.
2: Because they beat up the people who did it to them which means they effectively avenged themselves.

Romeo and Juliet wouldn't be a tragedy if they had been happily eloped then died in a random car accident.

Rick Blaine
10-11-2011, 11:32
The quote involves the Silent King talking about how necrons are inevitably fall to madness. It's not exactly touched on much in the codex beyond zandrekh and imotekh and really has a hard time being tragic when its so ridiculously comical in its portrayal.

You're right in that it's portrayed badly. That's Matt's writing for you, he's clumsy even when he has good idea. As always, we get small snippets of stuff and have to find the gems to focus on.

But what ha actually changed, apart from the ever-maligned "C'tan are behind everything lol" being removed? The warriors are still drones and the lords are still lucid, it's just that the book focuses more on the latter while the last one focused on the former.

Blink
10-11-2011, 11:36
So sorry that I didn't read between every line of the old codex and decipher its meaning like it were classic poetry.

The old Codex follows the format of Tragedies, yes.


You two seem very determined to hate the new fluff because it's something other than "OOoooOOOOooo, the Necron are mysteeeeeerious!"

Please cool it with this exaggeration nonsense.


The chief reason for this was because they were simply cold, logical machines.The chief reason for this was because they were simply cold, logical machines. Sure they -may- have had a flicker of what they once were deep in their metal husks, but that was always inconsequential. Logic trumps feelings, harvest for the C'tan, all life must be extinguished. While it's true the lords may have held some semblance of a sentient mind, they were still a slave chained to the will of the C'tan.

Sounds a lot like what people liked about the army...

Look, the old Codex had depth to it despite you stating it's not "deep and profound" (even though you did admit to noticing the intricacies within it). I liked that. People liked that. I liked playing an army that was a credible threat to the Galaxy (and had infact already purged it once before) where the models weren't happily serving their gods. That is found everywhere else in 40k.

Korraz
10-11-2011, 11:38
And, as always, it's up to US to take the "good idea, bad execution" of Ward and rewrite it in a workable manner.
I really should have opened that "Improving Wardian Fluff" thread back when the the Calgar Punchout turned up...

azimaith
10-11-2011, 11:38
So sorry that I didn't read between every line of the old codex and decipher its meaning like it were classic poetry.

You two seem very determined to hate the new fluff because it's something other than "OOoooOOOOooo, the Necron are mysteeeeeerious!"

We don't like the new fluff because it's light hearted and silly from a race that was one of the most sinister in the entire setting.



The old codex definitely had some neat short stories, but there was very little from the Necron perspective. The chief reason for this was because they were simply cold, logical machines. Sure they -may- have had a flicker of what they once were deep in their metal husks, but that was always inconsequential. Logic trumps feelings, harvest for the C'tan, all life must be extinguished. While it's true the lords may have held some semblance of a sentient mind, they were still a slave chained to the will of the C'tan.

They weren't marionettes, there wasn't a c'tan with his hand up the lords **** or pulling on his strings to make him swing in close combat. They were as much slaves of the C'tan as a imperial guardsman is a slave of his commanding officers, no more, no less. Besides, once again you show the problem I'm talking about in understanding the background. You need to actually read it, not just glance it over and fill it in with assumptions. The necrons and C'tan never wanted to extinguish all life, but once again this is a very common response that is completely contradicted by the background, yet widely accepted because most people haven't even read the background. Oh sure, they might have glanced at it, but they didn't actually read it.



Look at what we have now that we didn't have before. We got a glimpse of the Necrontyr society that was more than "they lived short, miserable lives and hated the Old Ones because they lived long, comfortable ones."\
We got to see a to see a little bit about their social social structure and hierarchy for one. We also got to see the effect of awakening to the newly repopulated galaxy on different characters as well. Some approach it with the mentality to subjugate (such as Imotekh) while others approach with fractured minds (like our good buddy Zandrekh). This really gives us an actual look at the minds of the Necron in their current form. Think of the special characters as samples of what you could possibly do for your own Overlord instead of

Gee, it's almost like they could have done that while keeping the whole point of the necrons intact. Oh wait, they could have but they didn't.



That-one-guy-that-I-don't-like-because-being-a-smartass-isn't-grimdark-enough-for-me-mom-I-need-you-to-buy-me-more-black-nail-polish-while-I-brood-and-write-on-my-livejournal-about-how-life-is-unfair-and-no-one-understands-me.

Uh huh. It couldn't be due to him being a shallow caricature at all.



And just in case you didn't bother to read that: Stop pretending the old codex was deep and profound and stop hating fun.
The old codex was deep and subtle. There's fun in reading good writing. I like good writing. This has nothing to do with some character flaw in you or me, just in difference of opinion.

You're right in that it's portrayed badly. That's Matt's writing for you, he's clumsy even when he has good idea. As always, we get small snippets of stuff and have to find the gems to focus on.

I was really excited in the early on necron rumors of "mad necron lords" because I thought they would fit in really well, there were ones who apparently thought they were C'tan, others who didn't know they had "died" etc, and I think it would have worked really well in the old codex, especially as "rogue" tombs who had been isolated over time. But now... so much has changed and the execution is so silly I can't see it making up for it.



But what ha actually changed, apart from the ever-maligned "C'tan are behind everything lol" being removed? The warriors are still drones and the lords are still lucid, it's just that the book focuses more on the latter while the last one focused on the former.
The entire point of the necrons being a threat is gone. The necrons were a threat because they were bringing back an age of darkness far beyond the current state, where everything existed as the food for horrific alien gods. Now they just want their empire of law and order back, and who even cares if that happens. The Imperium is an oppressive tyrannical regime with a backwards view of technology, the necrons as a whole are probably the same except their view of technology is not backwards, I'll take the necrons over the imperium.

Before when someone stumbled on a tomb world it was discovering something that should never be disturbed, something that if roused would cause legions to walk forth and harvest the living to feed their immortal gods. Now if you walk up on a tomb world it's basically an old house full of not entirely unreasonable people. If I had the choice of going to Somelnace (Trazyn's Tomb World) and Catachan, I'd take Somelnace every single time, especially if I got to bring some hummel figurines. If I had to choose in the old codex between going to Catachan or Naogeddon however, I'd take Catachan, at least then you just die.

Balerion
10-11-2011, 11:49
Why are you dragging out the a in flaw? Are you incapable or just unwilling to make a valid argument without exaggeration of some kind?"
I have personality!

(You are evidently a killer robot who is programmed with dictionaries and Norton's handbooks)


Anyway, by the definition you want to use it, neither race are very tragic (if by tragic, you mean "inspires sadness"). This one gained what they wanted and overcame those who oppressed them AND those they sought to defeat. If the metal bodies are such a bad thing, it's certainly understated in the new codex... The Silent King, on the other hand, was sorrowful and felt like he failed his race. He is the tragic figure.
Well, we're supposed to be looking at these stories from the viewpoint of our humanity, and not as dispassionate cosmic bookkeepers.

Like, the Tyranids have flawless unity, great recycling, and offer a version of immortality to the individuals of the swarm. That doesn't mean we're supposed to look at them and say, "Now that's the way to run a utopia!".

Blink
10-11-2011, 11:58
Well, we're supposed to be looking at these stories from the viewpoint of our humanity, and not as dispassionate cosmic bookkeepers.

Not really. In this Codex, we are given everything from humanity's viewpoint and beyond. If you look at the old Codex, the majority of everything we knew about the Necron, we knew from the stories involving humanity's encounters with them.

So the Old Codex falls more in line with even your point of view than this one.


Like, the Tyranids have flawless unity, great recycling, and offer a version of immortality to the individuals of the swarm. That doesn't mean we're supposed to look at them and say, "Now that's the way to run a utopia!".

You never know. We might if we actually understood it.

Balerion
10-11-2011, 12:02
They weren't marionettes, there wasn't a c'tan with his hand up the lords **** or pulling on his strings to make him swing in close combat. They were as much slaves of the C'tan as a imperial guardsman is a slave of his commanding officers, no more, no less.
If that is true then weren't the old Necrons "just another human race"?

I mean, you can't really believe what you just typed, can you?

If a Guardsman refuses to follow an order he can try to go AWOL, then get arrested, experience suffering in a work camp, escape, flee, find freedom, live with guilt, etc.

If a Necron disobeys (if that is even possible; you are making a leap from personality to personal agency that is not present in any fluff I've seen, particularly on the level of the basic troop/most common type of individual) then it's probably teleported back to HQ for a round of:

http://www.galacticbinder.com/images/DarkestMoments/8D8-gonk-torture.jpg

Blink
10-11-2011, 12:08
If that is true then weren't the old Necrons "just another human race"?

Depends on what similarities you want to look at and how important it is.

"They both walk on two legs. That means they are the same"

is a ridiculous argument akin to that. In my opinion, their clear and pressing distinctions compared to humanity before included their position as ACTUAL conquerors of the Galaxy and slaves within their own bodies to physical gods with effortless control over them, silent, and cursed to an eternity of regret.

Balerion
10-11-2011, 12:12
Whenever I say something like "just another human race" I am trying to sarcastically employ the terminology devised by several of the people who hate the new fluff and think it has made the Necrons, *ahem*, "just another human race".

Blink
10-11-2011, 12:22
Yep, while I wish you would keep to making your arguments clear and relevant, that is understood.

When people think of them as "just another human race" they are talking about their now-relateable ambitions and personality. You could have a tea-time chat with Trazyn as you could with Tau... and in fact, you could probably have a MORE "human" chat with Trazyn or some other Necron Overlords than you could many Eldar.

There will always be distinctions and similarities to draw between the races, but now, you could picture just about every one of these Necron special characters as human. The fact that they're metal makes little to no difference. They aren't very tragic, aren't really slaves, offer little threat to the galaxy at large, have MASSIVE internal politics troubles... And also, has anyone noticed that the story of the Necrontyr apparently spans the course of BILLIONS of years (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale) according to the start of the new codex?

Scammel
10-11-2011, 12:33
When people think of them as "just another human race" they are talking about their now-relateable ambitions and personality. You could have a tea-time chat with Trazyn as you could with Tau... and in fact, you could probably have a MORE "human" chat with Trazyn or some other Necron Overlords than you could many Eldar.


I got the impression that they'd have you killed on sight. I mean, you, a mere commoner, talk to them? Sure, they might have a minute or two for someone with at least an ounce of status, but Trazyn's first reaction to a bunch of random joes is to have them killed and added to his art collection - whilst that might not exactly be horrifying in the 40k context, it's far from holding a pleasant conversation. And that's probably 5% of Necron Lords who might at least consider an audience. The rest would have murdered any lesser species within the vicinity of their empires long ago. Well, that was the impression I got at least.

azimaith
10-11-2011, 12:42
If that is true then weren't the old Necrons "just another human race"?

No, because you can't judge a race entirely on one similar element, which is what I've been telling you over and over again and you still don't seem to get it. When we compare necrons to humans were comparing numerous things, not just a single chosen element. New necrons are much more akin to humans mentally than the old necrons ever were to Tyranids because the number of similarities in new necrons with humans are more numerous than the old necrons and tyranids.



I mean, you can't really believe what you just typed, can you?

Sure I can. The C'tan are gods, they're doing others things rather than bossing around random necrons, mostly eating. Every single part of the C'tan personality has shown them disinterested in most everything but eating, making sure theres something to eat, seasoning what they're going to eat, and eating one another.



If a Guardsman refuses to follow an order he can try to go AWOL, then get arrested, experience suffering in a work camp, escape, flee, find freedom, live with guilt, etc.

If a Necron disobeys (if that is even possible; you are making a leap from personality to personal agency that is not present in any fluff I've seen, particularly on the level of the basic troop/most common type of individual) then it's probably teleported back to HQ for a round of:

Hardly. Control Protocols didn't exist until the new codex. If the necron can escape pursuit there's no reason he can't do that. The Herald of the Storm failed the Deceiver in the Medusa V campaign and the C'tan was quite angry, hardly something that would make sense if the Deceiver had been in direct control of his puppet. "How dare my sock puppet fail me!"

Necron Tombs are under the control of necron lords, not C'tan. The Necrons ultimately serve the C'tan but that doesn't mean the C'tan control everything the necrons do.



http://www.galacticbinder.com/images/DarkestMoments/8D8-gonk-torture.jpg

:rolleyes:

Thanatos_elNyx
10-11-2011, 12:45
The way I see it is that the Necrons have been squated and a new race has been introduced to the universe.
I will miss my Necrons, but they are not coming back.

So looking at the Newcrons as an almost completely new entry to the universe, they do have some interesting elements (Trazyn amongst them).

azimaith
10-11-2011, 12:48
That necrons were removed as a race is exactly how I feel. The new race doesn't fit the name or the tag line. They're something, but they're not necrons.

Vipoid
10-11-2011, 13:28
I have to say that I don't like the new necron fluff. I much preferred it when they were mysterious, soulless destroyers.

On the other hand, I do find myself really liking Trazyn. I like models that can regenerate or revive, and I look forward to saying "Excellent! Another piece for the collection!" at the end of every game - probably in a suitably mad/silly voice. Hmm, I wonder if I could paint him to look something like The Collector in Simpsons...

Honestly, though, I've been a bit uncertain of how I planned to use him.

One thought I've had is to send him with a squad of warriors or immortals ahead of my main force, as a suicide squad. He'll give them relentless, so they should still be able to put out a lot of firepower (especially when a unit closes with them), and will be difficult for my opponent to ignore. I'm not expecting great things from him or his unit if they do end up in combat (although his mindshackle scarabs and empathic obliterator might be fun). However, if his squad is killed, he can just possess another unit in my army, and the rest of my units can then shoot at whatever is left of the enemy unit.

Not the only tactic I'll be using, but I rather like the idea.

loveless
10-11-2011, 13:50
That necrons were removed as a race is exactly how I feel. The new race doesn't fit the name or the tag line. They're something, but they're not necrons.

And all your complaining about the change and murmuring alongside Blink isn't going to bring the old background back.

I'm sorry, but I'm weary of going into every Necron thread and seeing the same whiny crap. I honestly forget which thread I'm reading because you people clog every one with "My world is changing and I hate it!" posts.

We get it. You don't like it. Can we just move all of the background bitching to one thread so the rest of us can go through a discussion without having 3 pages of "the old stuff was better!"?

This is a thread on Trazyn the Infinite and the majority of it is a few posters longing for the old days. I long for the days when gasoline was under $1/gallon, but I don't go into every new car thread and preach about it.

I like the old background as well as the new, but all this moaning about the change in every thread is frustrating >_<

For the record, I adore Trazyn. He's an arrogant bastard with a functioning sarcasm/humor chip and fine taste in art. He stands out from other Necrons - especially Imotekh, who is very much the cold and calculating robotic overlord you'd expect in a scifi setting.

azimaith
10-11-2011, 14:00
And all your complaining about the change and murmuring alongside Blink isn't going to bring the old background back.

"Anyone else think Trazyn is awesome or hate him?"
Gee, that sounds like a question. I guess if I answer that its complaining.




I'm sorry, but I'm weary of going into every Necron thread and seeing the same whiny crap. I honestly forget which thread I'm reading because you people clog every one with "My world is changing and I hate it!" posts.

Don't go into threads asking people for their opinion if you don't want to hear it. This is a forum where people discuss things, its not about what you want to see.



We get it. You don't like it. Can we just move all of the background bitching to one thread so the rest of us can go through a discussion without having 3 pages of "the old stuff was better!"?

You're wasting your time butting in on a conversation that doesn't involve you at all to complain about people discussing the background. This is about Trazyn, it was mentioned why he was not liked extending to the background change, they are related. Get. Over. It.



This is a thread on Trazyn the Infinite and the majority of it is a few posters longing for the old days. I long for the days when gasoline was under $1/gallon, but I don't go into every new car thread and preach about it.

Oh no! People discussing things in a forum and it's not what you want! What's the world coming too! If that's all it is, leave and don't bother coming in here. All you're doing is complaining to people who were otherwise having a conversation that spawned from the topic.
Every time something like this comes around someone always has to pop in to complain about how the a thread apparently doesn't boil down to 20 people says "yes" or "no" and then promptly die. Questions of opinion spawn opinions which are then explained. When that explanation is ignored by new posters it's repeated over and over again until it's clear. This is how the internet merry-go-round works.



I like the old background as well as the new, but all this moaning about the change in every thread is frustrating >_<

Why is it anymore frustrating than all the fanfare about the new background.

You're trying to start a fight with the very nature of human communication here, dialogue will inevitably travel off course into linked subjects, it's time to accept that because no amount of coming into threads to complain about it will ever change it, just like the necron background.



For the record, I adore Trazyn. He's an arrogant bastard with a functioning sarcasm/humor chip and fine taste in art. He stands out from other Necrons - especially Imotekh, who is very much the cold and calculating robotic overlord you'd expect in a scifi setting.
Why would a cold and calculating robot overlord let his enemies go to learn his tricks. Stinks more of an arrogant robot overlord, which is far from being cold or calculating.

Thanatos_elNyx
10-11-2011, 14:11
snip whining

And yet you make things worse.

loveless
10-11-2011, 14:13
No, I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just sick of every Necron thread being filled with "Wah, I miss the old background" from the same half-dozen WarSeerites.

Show me the thread on here that doesn't have the stink of the dead Necron codex on it and I'll happily linger there.

When I see a thread on Trazyn, I expect to see:
1) What we like
2) What we don't like
3) What could have been done better
4) What really shone as a positive

Unfortunately, we got to step 2 and people ran back into moaning. Like every other bloody Necron thread on here.

It's frustrating because every thread becomes a negative mess. It would be great to have one positive thread that isn't tarnished by more of the same damn whining.

Whatever, though. People want to draw attention in the vain hope that a bit of paper with a bunch of names on it will change an author's mind. Good for you, shame you can't organize it in one place.

The bearded one
10-11-2011, 14:13
I think his point is that a Trazyn thread went to an oldcrons vs newcrons thread and Trazyn has barely been mentioned (if at all?) for the past 3 pages. Halfway page 2 we were already at the "the new fluff is despicable!"-stage.

Edit: Ninja'd.

loveless
10-11-2011, 14:15
I think his point is that a Trazyn thread went to an oldcrons vs newcrons thread and Trazyn has barely been mentioned (if at all?) for the past 3 pages. Halfway page 2 we were already at the "the new fluff is despicable!"-stage.

Edit: Ninja'd.

Yep, that's it.

Beardface, I should hire you to make my points concisely :p

azimaith
10-11-2011, 14:22
I think his point is that a Trazyn thread went to an oldcrons vs newcrons thread and Trazyn has barely been mentioned (if at all?) for the past 3 pages. Halfway page 2 we were already at the "the new fluff is despicable!"-stage.

Edit: Ninja'd.
On page 1 it pretty much had already gone to "old necrons were boring because the internet says so" stage, which is a precursor to "the new fluff is despicable" stage. Your thread would have been about 3/4 of one page long without the greater background being brought up.

People are still free to come in here and gush about Trazyn as much as they like, nothing's happened save this thread hasn't been buried under everything else because there's interest in at least one of the discussions here.

I would have thought it would have been obvious by now, but the trigger for these things degenerating like this is the "Old necrons were boring zombies who hated all life because I didn't read the background and the internet told me they were."

No one is arguing that you can't want to have Trazyn's babies, but when the old fluff is constantly derided by inaccurate statements it makes people who spent the time actually reading it angry.

Reinholt
10-11-2011, 14:26
I think a less than subtle point that should be noted here is this:

Regardless of how much any one individual on this board may (or may not) have liked them, the Necrons were not a commercial success for GW in their previous incarnation. GW is a business, and while many of their business decisions demonstrate questionable acumen, in this context, it really leaves GW with only one of three options if they want to move the Necrons forward.

1 - Sharpen the previous focus and see if they can add to the fan following.

2 - Take them in a new direction and see if they can add to the fan following.

3 - Eliminate them.

I would suggest that path number two had the highest probability of making the necrons into a profitable line for GW with respectable turnover.

Going down road 1 would have likely led the Necrons into either abject boredom or, perhaps more dangerously, simply becoming robot tyranids, but even if you get it right, your potential may be limited as large numbers of players did not respond to the initial idea and execution of the army (which is why you are here in the first place).

Going down road 2 brings great risks, but also more opportunity. You might alienate some of the 2% of the community who currently play Necrons (as we have witnessed in this thread), but is the risk of alienating a small faction worth potentially raking in a much larger faction? Probably, in this case.

Going down road 3 brings the risk of a backlash. The psychic scream of anguish from the death of the squats still echoes in the warp shadow cast by GW's games, so there will be irate people if you kill them off. This is not to say it should never be done.

I would argue that if GW did a complete reboot of the Necrons (replete with new models, new codex, better background, and the best efforts of the design team) and the reception was still very negative in terms of uptake within the community, that would be the time to eliminate them. So far, I have seen the reverse; a few Necron veterans have quit, but I have seen more joining than leaving in NYC so far. As an example, I started with Necrons when they were just a baby WD artile, played for a while, got incredibly bored with the lack of background, quit, but I'm going to come back because of the new codex and things like Trazyn.

So to those who decry the change in necron background, I would say this - on one hand, I can sympathize with the annoyance. On the other hand, they were not commercially viable going forward, so the belief that they would have remained the same was misguided in the first place. The future choices were probably revamped necrons or no necrons, and the revamped ones do offer much broader background to play with. Honestly, most of the 'old' necron feel still exists in either the armies where no lord is in command (the world defense system is) or something has gone horribly wrong with a C'Tan shard.

I also think the over the top comments about the necrons being either comedic or shallow are themselves comedic and shallow. The background did not change that much in the grand scheme of things. They are still evil robots who want to take over the galaxy. Now they have dynasties instead of proprietary C'tan empires. Now they have personal agency instead of agency granted to them by a shadowy figure in the background (or at least they think they do - maybe the Deceiver is actually still pulling the strings). Now their robot carapaces have some slightly different shapes. Now the flayed ones have slightly dorkier models.

The similarities are far greater than the differences. It's not like space marines getting turned into gretchin or dark eldar starting up charities for helping old ladies. No grey knight carved his name onto the heart of one of the C'tan.

Also, Trazyn does sort of seem like a deranged and very evil archeologist. I think it fits the necrons well, given that he does it in a rather unfathomable, underhanded, and strage way. The Necrons, in many ways, are still very alien and ancient.

azimaith
10-11-2011, 14:28
I think a less than subtle point that should be noted here is this:

Regardless of how much any one individual on this board may (or may not) have liked them, the Necrons were not a commercial success for GW in their previous incarnation. GW is a business, and while many of their business decisions demonstrate questionable acumen, in this context, it really leaves GW with only one of three options if they want to move the Necrons forward.


The old necrons were a commercial success, they just languished for a decade without updates so people stopped playing them consistently. The stopped being commercially viable because their rules were not viable any longer in the new game.



1 - Sharpen the previous focus and see if they can add to the fan following.

2 - Take them in a new direction and see if they can add to the fan following.

3 - Eliminate them.

4 - Develop the background while remaining consistent. Give them new rules.
Would have solved all the problems.



I would suggest that path number two had the highest probability of making the necrons into a profitable line for GW with respectable turnover.

Going down road 1 would have likely led the Necrons into either abject boredom or, perhaps more dangerously, simply becoming robot tyranids, but even if you get it right, your potential may be limited as large numbers of players did not respond to the initial idea and execution of the army (which is why you are here in the first place).

Going down road 2 brings great risks, but also more opportunity. You might alienate some of the 2% of the community who currently play Necrons (as we have witnessed in this thread), but is the risk of alienating a small faction worth potentially raking in a much larger faction? Probably, in this case.

Going down road 3 brings the risk of a backlash. The psychic scream of anguish from the death of the squats still echoes in the warp shadow cast by GW's games, so there will be irate people if you kill them off. This is not to say it should never be done.

I would argue that if GW did a complete reboot of the Necrons (replete with new models, new codex, better background, and the best efforts of the design team) and the reception was still very negative in terms of uptake within the community, that would be the time to eliminate them. So far, I have seen the reverse; a few Necron veterans have quit, but I have seen more joining than leaving in NYC so far. As an example, I started with Necrons when they were just a baby WD artile, played for a while, got incredibly bored with the lack of background, quit, but I'm going to come back because of the new codex and things like Trazyn.

The necrons had a full codex after their WD release. Why does that qualify as no background.



So to those who decry the change in necron background, I would say this - on one hand, I can sympathize with the annoyance. On the other hand, they were not commercially viable going forward, so the belief that they would have remained the same was misguided in the first place. The future choices were probably revamped necrons or no necrons, and the revamped ones do offer much broader background to play with. Honestly, most of the 'old' necron feel still exists in either the armies where no lord is in command (the world defense system is) or something has gone horribly wrong with a C'Tan shard.

I also think the over the top comments about the necrons being either comedic or shallow are themselves comedic and shallow. The background did not change that much in the grand scheme of things. They are still evil robots who want to take over the galaxy. Now they have dynasties instead of proprietary C'tan empires. Now they have personal agency instead of agency granted to them by a shadowy figure in the background (or at least they think they do - maybe the Deceiver is actually still pulling the strings). Now their robot carapaces have some slightly different shapes. Now the flayed ones have slightly dorkier models.

They aren't evil robots. That's an assumption that isn't born out in the new codex. They're as neutral as humanity is with "good" and "evil" members. There's no indication living in a necron empire would be any worse than living in the imperium of mankind, while in the old background things would be clearly worse.

The entire feel has changed because of it, the necron feel is no longer there because they don't have any malice attached to them. The old necron feel was an impossibly ancient and alien race that was reawakening to harvest life for it's dread gods. It was never "mindless zombies."



The similarities are far greater than the differences. It's not like space marines getting turned into gretchin or dark eldar starting up charities for helping old ladies. No grey knight carved his name onto the heart of one of the C'tan.

It's exactly like Chaos Marines going from ravaging enemies of the Imperium to a bunch of space marines who had conquered the dark gods and now wants to make an empire for itself and are quite reasonable.



Also, Trazyn does sort of seem like a deranged and very evil archeologist. I think it fits the necrons well, given that he does it in a rather unfathomable, underhanded, and strage way. The Necrons, in many ways, are still very alien and ancient.
What gives you the impression he's evil exactly? All he seems to care about is collecting things, not using them for some nefarious purpose. His motivations are pretty clearly spelled out. Collect stuff, be immortal. He doesn't even want to use the Stars of Khaine, which are apparently incredibly powerful weapons, as weapons. He just wants to keep them. He's as evil as a robotic magpie is as far as I can tell.

drear
10-11-2011, 14:30
i love his concept, rules wise im not to fond of him .

overall hes needed in the new book, along with any comic releif as the book is terribly depressing from a fluff point of view.
have you guys read the quotes box under the flayed ones? about how they lost everything but their minds, and now even that is going to be lost..

the insane lord and his body guard who is stuck seeing everything as if he still has skin and bones, before the ctan cursed him.

the book gives off this strong feeling that the necrons and their lords are such unhappy creatures, and just want hugs.. ):

Necrofencer
10-11-2011, 14:42
Well, hello everyone. Just got there because of that damned "Stop everything, someone is worng on the internet!". Anyway.

I don't think the necrons changed as much as one would like to believe. They've just got hit by the Reverse C'Tan Syndrome pretty hard.

I mean, go through the book. Stop anytime some personnality quirk or "anything not being a routine program or an extremely vague remnant of personnality transformed into a routine program". Now count the times it is NOT related to the nobility... So yeah, the commoners did not change, only the lords (and crypteks now) did.

In fact, if you take the army list and remove the Overlord (basically leaving only the Destroyer Lord as HQ) and the Praetorians, you have the old codex with more units. An army of mindless or near-mindless machines lead by an highly intelligent and even more omnicidal lord. And he won't crack trollish jokes while dramatically speaking of his master plan to conquer the galaxy, he'll just wordlessly go about his business with his troops (Harvest, that is).


On the topic of the Tragic Destiny of the necrons, sharding the C'Tan doesn't make it any less tragic. Or maybe the history of the Imperium isn't tragic because it survived the Heresy and the one of the Eldars isn't either, as they have effective ways of pushing back She-Who-Thirsts? Hell no, the Necron may have defeated the C'Tan, they're still soulless bastards who gave just about everything that mattered to them for a stupid spot of hope and ended up paying for something that got yanked out of their reach (true immortality).

The old Codex:Necrons was about the C'Tan, this one is about the delusions of grandeur of the lords, going insane as a side effect of their stupidity of yore. So the Necron Race may very well conquer the galaxy. Yeah, and? They will still have the dubious pleasure of irreversibly decaying. And contrary to the other races, they can't say "ok, let's stop this foolish ride here and eat this gun", that won't do the trick.

The Codex expanding almost only on the rainbow-and-flowers view of the lords about this situation, those fools who willingly obsess themselves with whatever hobby they may find to delude themselves, doesn't change the simple truth. The Necron are doomed, in very much the same way they were descripted in the old fluff, and I'm pretty sure that, were the Codex written through the PoV of the 99,99% commoners and not the 0,01% lords, it would be suicide-inducingly dark.


As for the actual topic of this thread, Trazyn that is, he's pretty awesome once you get it in context. This guy decided that, since he has an infinite amount of time to burn, he better have fun doing it. The lesser nobility of Solemnace must have shining heads form all the facepalming they have to do. I don't see the guy as easier to follow than Zahndrek. The commoners simply have the joy (or would, if they could) of being hijacked from times to times, in addition to the usual stuff they go through.

Reinholt
10-11-2011, 15:28
Azimaith:

1. The old necrons were not a commercial success. I've seen the turnover numbers on them. They are deep in the recesses of the most unpopular 40k armies (chilling out with the Sisters of Battle), and are actually less popular than quite a few fantasy armies (which is hard, as 40k outsells fantasy handily). current turnover levels and interest did not justify continued investment by GW, to be blunt. GW staffers and independent retailers can probably confirm the necrons were not exactly hot sellers.

2. Developing the background while remaining consistent is the option 1 I outlined above. Iterate, essentially.

3. I think the rest is a matter of personal opinion; you are certainly welcome to yours, and if you are bitter, so be it. I don't have a desire to persuade you otherwise.

To claim the old necrons were a line that sold well (really at any point in their existence outside of the brief window of initial release) or justified additional cost at current turnover levels is fundamentally incorrect from a business standpoint. In short, they had too few fans for too much cost (unless you want to transition the whole line to resin-only forgeworld to lower your up front costs over time, which is a viable avenue that essentially eliminates them as a main game army). The correct business move is to reboot the line, and then transition them out if they still fail after your best efforts attempt.

Woodsman
10-11-2011, 15:40
He sounds pretty retro - I'm all for bringing the humour of 1st and 2nd back into 40K.

I never found the Necron stuff very inspiring or particularly tragic. I tend to read to get to that sort of emotion and a GW Codex is the last place I'm heading for.

Having said that; I do understand that people who like one approach get cross when background receives major changes. That's why they should never have put the Necrons out in the first place.

azimaith
10-11-2011, 15:43
Azimaith:

1. The old necrons were not a commercial success. I've seen the turnover numbers on them. They are deep in the recesses of the most unpopular 40k armies (chilling out with the Sisters of Battle), and are actually less popular than quite a few fantasy armies (which is hard, as 40k outsells fantasy handily). current turnover levels and interest did not justify continued investment by GW, to be blunt. GW staffers and independent retailers can probably confirm the necrons were not exactly hot sellers.

Care to point them out where those numbers are, because I've seen necrons all over long before the new codex. Almost every store had several and they were typically available on the shelves (in differing quantities indicating they were being shifted.)



2. Developing the background while remaining consistent is the option 1 I outlined above. Iterate, essentially.

Your number one was to "focus in on their mindless zombie aspect" which would result in them becoming "robot tyranids" it was not to develop their background as it was while keeping it consistent. They were never mindless zombies in the codex thus your number 1 is not at all what I said.



3. I think the rest is a matter of personal opinion; you are certainly welcome to yours, and if you are bitter, so be it. I don't have a desire to persuade you otherwise.

The only thing I'm bitter about are the ill informed responses I keep seeing about mindless zombies.

The new fluff is what it is, people keep assuming it's a personal fault I don't like the codex fluff. "Oh you don't like chocolate? Don't be so bitter about it!"



To claim the old necrons were a line that sold well (really at any point in their existence outside of the brief window of initial release) or justified additional cost at current turnover levels is fundamentally incorrect from a business standpoint. In short, they had too few fans for too much cost (unless you want to transition the whole line to resin-only forgeworld to lower your up front costs over time, which is a viable avenue that essentially eliminates them as a main game army). The correct business move is to reboot the line, and then transition them out if they still fail after your best efforts attempt.
Any actual proof or are you just pulling this out of your ****? I saw plenty of necron armies around, more so than tyranids even. My experience has shown me that in the west coast and Hawaii necrons were very popular early on and that declined because their codex was ignored.

Grimtuff
10-11-2011, 15:49
Azimaith:
1. The old necrons were not a commercial success. I've seen the turnover numbers on them. They are deep in the recesses of the most unpopular 40k armies (chilling out with the Sisters of Battle), and are actually less popular than quite a few fantasy armies (which is hard, as 40k outsells fantasy handily). current turnover levels and interest did not justify continued investment by GW, to be blunt. GW staffers and independent retailers can probably confirm the necrons were not exactly hot sellers.


Because of their ancient clunky rules not gelling with the current edition of the game, thus making them one of the most underpowered armies at that time. People won't buy an army that is sub par on the tabletop. Background had nothing to do with it.

PhalanxLord
10-11-2011, 15:58
http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/280x280/9788398.jpg

I think that sums up this thread pretty well for both sides of the argument (I can point out specific examples if need be). Personally I like both sets of fluff. While the C'tan were sort of just shoved in there I did like all the different fluff pieces and I enjoyed the little bits from the novels. I really wish they still wrote fluff like that rather than having things like "Bob fought nids. He grabbed a gun and shot them. He killed them all through unbeatable tactical genius." Meanwhile I like the new stuff because I like their personalities and quirks. I probably wouldn't have started collecting Necrons if it were still like the previous book.

As for Trollzyn... I think he's pretty awesome. While I don't think he's worth it in game fluff-wise he's probably now my favorite character in 40K.

GodlessM
10-11-2011, 15:59
His fluff makes his awesome but his rules are pants.

Love the letter to Valeria though.

Vipoid
10-11-2011, 16:13
His fluff makes his awesome but his rules are pants.

I don't think his rules are that terrible. For me, the only annoying things are:

1) Having no invulnerable save is kinda annoying. I know he can resurrect, but it's a lot less fun if he doesn't get to attack or anythign first.

2) For such a mad collector, I kinda expected a few more pieces of abstract wargear or artefacts.

3) I really hate that I'm not allowed any choice as to which unit he replaces when he comes back. I think I should be allowed to choose the type of unit to replace (overlord, lord, cryptek or lychguard), and have him replace a random one. Or, alternatively, select a unit that it made up of (or includes at least one of) those models, and have him replace a random model from amongst all applicable ones in that unit.

Ward's fettish for randomisation in this codex is really beginning to bug me - especially for what used to be a logical, calculating race.

Ordo Hydra
10-11-2011, 16:13
Trazyn and Valeria, sitting in a tree, KILLING! :p

Does background actually contribute greatly to sales though? I would imagine the first thing that dictated the fielding of an army would be the rules and the ability to actually field them in battle. I mean, you could get the best fluff written army but if they are just terrible on the tabletop, they people won't buy them.

But anyway, onto the topic. Trazyn, I find him kind of cool. Cooler than the other Necron characters though I wouldn't go as far as say awesome. Whilst I don't despise the new Necron characters, I just don't feel the "Awesome!" feel to them the way I did for the C'tan Nightbringer and Deceiver. Deceiver in particular actually had a chill to him.

Chaplain of Chaos
10-11-2011, 16:18
It's more that something was done that can be narratively evaluated as sub-par when compared to previous background.

The Oldcron book and the general aesthetic of the Oldcron army actually had something unique to it. It wasn't just another generic empire building army. Things could have been done to expand the fluff without being so hamfisted in rewriting the background.

What bugs me is that so many people feel like GW should be applauded for making poor background.

It's not just a matter of opinion. It's actually bad writing. It was clumsy poor mismanagement of their own fluff which they have a responsibility too. Except you know what? They know that if they dangle some funny cardboard cutout special characters in front of people they'll go squee all over themselves and post about how awesome they are.

"YOU SEE WHAT HE SAID TO THAT INQUISITOR OMG HE'S SO ADORABLE"

Which is ridiculous considering the level of seriousness with which they tried to deal with the necrons in the past.

The Necrons are no longer are credible threat. It commonly talks about Tyranid Hive Fleets not caring too much about them now. Before we had images of Tyranid Hive Fleets trying to avoid them like the plague. Tomb Worlds after coming on line are malfunctioning messes which are described as terribly vulnerable when before it was woooebetide the fool who stumbles on a sleeping Tomb World. I still boggle at the thought of that one broken tomb world with it's incompetent Necron Lords just throwing legions of forces which it can never get back into Space randomly to die. The Necron race is not cool or evocative anymore it's a bunch of idiotic senile old fools whose gross mismanagement of their own species screwed them and is still screwing them.

This is like taking one book written by Lovecraft and it's old and the element of horror doesn't really appeal to the younger kids who find it boring, but the quality and ethos remain consistent; and one book written by a romance novelist with all the blunt and clumsy imagery and overwrought and terribly written dialogue that goes along with it and then saying that qualitatively the romance novel is better.

Sure saying which fluff you "like" is a matter of opinion but qualitatively one book has more value as background material.

FashaTheDog
10-11-2011, 16:49
The tragic element of the Necron in the old Codex was still happening; the tragic element now has long past. They were victims to their own flaws before, but now all that rests on the decisions of one; the Silent King. And now that the C'tan have been subverted, they overcame that which made them tragic, and now they're just living in the aftermath. It's like when they make a sequel to a tragedy; the second is almost NEVER as effective as the first.

I don't know, Antigone was pretty good. I will grant you, however, that Mat Ward is no Sophocles.


Like, the Tyranids have flawless unity, great recycling, and offer a version of immortality to the individuals of the swarm. That doesn't mean we're supposed to look at them and say, "Now that's the way to run a utopia!".

Oh damn, and here I've been advocating them as the heralds of prosperity to come that we should emulate all this time...

As for the Necrons, I like both fluff sets for different reasons. There was, as several have pointed out, great under- and unstated parts that may or may not have been deliberate (GW has gotten lucky through laziness before). Regardless of intent, it came out as a subtle piece of fun fluff. The new Necron fluff has a very arrogant aristocratic feel to it, almost like the Habsburg monarchy of old awoke today and sought to resume their station but fail to recognize the great political changes that occurred in their absence. Different feel for the same race, kind of like what the Tyranids went through from their Rogue Trader premier to what they are now. Which I like better is irrelevant as the new is here to stay, so I will accept it and make the best of it, leaving my interpretation as wide as possible to encompass as much of the old as I can.

GrogDaTyrant
10-11-2011, 16:50
1. The old necrons were not a commercial success. I've seen the turnover numbers on them. They are deep in the recesses of the most unpopular 40k armies (chilling out with the Sisters of Battle), and are actually less popular than quite a few fantasy armies (which is hard, as 40k outsells fantasy handily). current turnover levels and interest did not justify continued investment by GW, to be blunt. GW staffers and independent retailers can probably confirm the necrons were not exactly hot sellers.

When an army is left to the depths of a previous edition (or several), with an antiquated rule set made horrifically sub-par by drastic core-rule changes, you tend to see the popularity of said army drop off considerably. We saw the same thing with the old Dark Eldar, Orks, and Sisters. Releasing a new codex (for good or worse) and suddenly pouring attention upon them, brief as it may be, helps to revitalize that spark of popularity.

Necrons were certainly popular when first released back in mid to late 3rd edition. The LGS I frequented had numerous Necron armies. They sold quite well. It wasn't until 4th arrived that they started their slow decline, not unlike what we're seeing currently with armies still stuck in 4th (or prior). The initial 'late 4th' codex popularity has been tapering off from Orks for quite a while, and Tau are even futher behind despite getting a strong boost during the early/mid 4th era.

Bottom line: Don't confuse current lack of commercial success for a reliable indicator of how successful the army has been over time. If current popularity trends held at all, then the current mediocrity of the Ork sales doesn't justify them having received 3 whole waves of new models. Not many armies can claim that, especially if you count each marine release as a 'separate army' (like so many marine fans insist upon :rolleyes:)



In any case, Trazyn... meh. Haven't read much on him, and don't really care to. But I will say this. The old Necrons were much more like '40k Vampire Counts', with star vampires and their conscious Wight-King underlings (Necron Lords). The new Necrons are definitely more similar to the organization and setup of Tomb-Kings. IMO arguing either way for the old or new Necrons, is a lot like taking a preference over either of Fantasy's (current) undead forces and claiming it as better with the other being worse. The players who liked the Old Necrons tend to be the same kind of players drawn to Tyranids... it comes from an appreciation of that 'cinematic face-less evil'. Whether they be Terminator robots, or Xenomorph aliens. New Necrons are much more humanized, and so the people more resistant to the new fluff will tend to be these same individuals who preferred that relentless cinematic evil.

IMO, they should have gone both routes... Leave the Nightbringer/Deceiver/etc as organized Star-Vampire threats with vast legions of mindless Necron slaves under their thrall. While simultaneously adding the new 'Tomb-King' like approach of more humanized Necrons operating on their own empire-building schemes, screaming "GET OFF MY LAWN!" at the new meat-bag races.

loveless
10-11-2011, 16:53
Sure saying which fluff you "like" is a matter of opinion but qualitatively one book has more value as background material.

And it's probably the new one that has more value :p

----

It just seems like the new books are weaving together the background - albeit new background - so that these massive personalities can actually interact. They're actually written to the point where the characters can amuse or fascinate - hell, it encourages narrative play. That's almost the theme of 5th edition books - but people get upset when you add a face to a faceless horror. Understandable, but the lamentations are repetitive.

There seemed to be a certain level of outcry against the new Tyranid characters as well (though that was quickly replaced by complaints about that book's power level).

I like the interaction that's being put into it all. The Necrons pull Valeria and Helbrecht (among others) into their tale. It might "shrink" the universe for some, but I'd rather read something focused than a Xenologist's Doctorate Thesis on Necron Tombworlds in Sector Epsilon-Chi-32.A

I prefer tales of personalities like Trazyn, who comes off as a comic book villain (from good comics, ones where the characters are thought-out and you identify with the villain as much as the hero), than generic Lord 156R of Tombworld 0100100101101002.

Trazyn's "Mad Collector" is fun - he has some bizarre, personal goals that have the potential to supremely wreck the plans or lives of other races. It opens up space for a lot of conflicts and weird, arcane artifacts to show up in the setting. I prefer it to the "Scare/Trick/Drive-you-Insane, then Eat You" - which honestly wasn't bad, this is just better :p

Shadowfane
10-11-2011, 17:16
When an army is left to the depths of a previous edition (or several), with an antiquated rule set made horrifically sub-par by drastic core-rule changes, you tend to see the popularity of said army drop off considerably. We saw the same thing with the old Dark Eldar, Orks, and Sisters. Releasing a new codex (for good or worse) and suddenly pouring attention upon them, brief as it may be, helps to revitalize that spark of popularity.

Necrons were certainly popular when first released back in mid to late 3rd edition. The LGS I frequented had numerous Necron armies. They sold quite well. It wasn't until 4th arrived that they started their slow decline, not unlike what we're seeing currently with armies still stuck in 4th (or prior). The initial 'late 4th' codex popularity has been tapering off from Orks for quite a while, and Tau are even futher behind despite getting a strong boost during the early/mid 4th era.

Bottom line: Don't confuse current lack of commercial success for a reliable indicator of how successful the army has been over time. If current popularity trends held at all, then the current mediocrity of the Ork sales doesn't justify them having received 3 whole waves of new models. Not many armies can claim that, especially if you count each marine release as a 'separate army' (like so many marine fans insist upon :rolleyes:)



In any case, Trazyn... meh. Haven't read much on him, and don't really care to. But I will say this. The old Necrons were much more like '40k Vampire Counts', with star vampires and their conscious Wight-King underlings (Necron Lords). The new Necrons are definitely more similar to the organization and setup of Tomb-Kings. IMO arguing either way for the old or new Necrons, is a lot like taking a preference over either of Fantasy's (current) undead forces and claiming it as better with the other being worse. The players who liked the Old Necrons tend to be the same kind of players drawn to Tyranids... it comes from an appreciation of that 'cinematic face-less evil'. Whether they be Terminator robots, or Xenomorph aliens. New Necrons are much more humanized, and so the people more resistant to the new fluff will tend to be these same individuals who preferred that relentless cinematic evil.

IMO, they should have gone both routes... Leave the Nightbringer/Deceiver/etc as organized Star-Vampire threats with vast legions of mindless Necron slaves under their thrall. While simultaneously adding the new 'Tomb-King' like approach of more humanized Necrons operating on their own empire-building schemes, screaming "GET OFF MY LAWN!" at the new meat-bag races.

Just a quick point here - at what point did he ever say that the numbers he was looking at were RECENT ones, and not, say, numbers for the last 8-10 years? I'm not saying that he does have those numbers, but anedotal evidence of several necron armies and they're stock always being on the shelves doesnt really mean anything - the stock could always be there becauseit never sold, for example...

Blink
10-11-2011, 18:16
Loveless, what did you THINK would happen in a thead that gives people the option to dislike something about the new Codex? This thread gives perfect reason to state the fact that his personality hardly makes him a Necron and if he were any other race, effectively nothing would change about him.

So how about instead of coming in here and attacking people, calling them "whiners", you start your own thread titled "Things we like about the new Necron Codex" so you can have your own clique of cup half-full people? (Or if I were to use the pejorative like you do to me and the others who are less pleased with the Codex: "clique of easily amused drones"... See? It's not very fair to say something like that, is it?)

Denny
10-11-2011, 18:19
What bugs me is that so many people feel like GW should be applauded for making poor background . . . Which is ridiculous considering the level of seriousness with which they tried to deal with the necrons in the past.


I disagree; personally I prefer the more old skool 'silly' approach to 40K (started during second edition where 90% of the fluff felt like excuses for bad puns).

Each to his own, but I think its an oversight to equate 'serious' with 'quality'.

(For the record I do think the old 'dex was well written, I just feel a more light-hearted approach can have merit too)

IMO Crazy Robot obsessed with collecting stuff he never intends to make use of = Win.

loveless
10-11-2011, 18:39
So how about instead of coming in here and attacking people, calling them "whiners", you start your own thread titled "Things we like about the new Necron Codex"

I would, but then you'd just show up and ruin it by harkening back to the age of Oldcrons :p

Khorneguy
10-11-2011, 18:54
I've said this to my gaming friends already, but i love Trazyn because he's like an Aspie in space.

Before people cry out against me, I have AS myself and recongnise some of his traits within myself - i.e compulsive hoarding for no real gain, but just to have the objects and the lacking of understanding of the universe or how it works (seeing Valerias invasion/ tomb raid as a gift after knowing she'd seen his collection years before)

He's actually a 40k character I can connect with. I've even started referring to him as Me in Space

Blink
10-11-2011, 18:57
I would, but then you'd just show up and ruin it by harkening back to the age of Oldcrons :p

Ah, of course. Take no positive initiative yourself; where would be the point in that when you can just assume the worst in people, walk into other topics and call people with different opinions than you "whiners" despite their opinions still being relevant to the topic, make no effort to understand where they're coming from, and pejoratively talk about what they do like in terms of "generic Lord 156R of Tombworld 0100100101101002" ...


I've said this to my gaming friends already, but i love Trazyn because he's like an Aspie in space.

That's the same vibe I got from him.

I still think (pretty much know) Valeria sent him those Catachan on purpose. She's courting for an invite.

loveless
10-11-2011, 19:13
Ah, of course. Take no positive initiative yourself; where would be the point in that when you can just assume the worst in people, walk into other topics and call people with different opinions than you "whiners" despite their opinions still being relevant to the topic

The opinions seemed to shift within a page from Trazyn to "generic Oldcron v. Newcron debate that's all over WarSeer" - I simply wanted to see more ideas about Trazyn as opposed to more "Well, if they didn't change everything" yadda yadda.

In all honesty I probably will start something on the Necrons in General once the ire has died down a bit. I just don't want to see another New v Old debate - I'm not interested in it.


make no effort to understand where they're coming from

I do know where you're coming from. I've been a Necron proponent for years. I even fully supported the "C'tan Endgame" scenario for the 40K universe.

I just don't see the point in clinging to the past (which is ironic in a thread about an intergalactic antiquarian :D), when we can find potential to do other things with the shift in the background. There's just so much bitterness and bile that it's disappointing.


and pejoratively talk about what they do like in terms of "generic Lord 156R of Tombworld 0100100101101002" ...

Okay, that was just me having fun at the expense of the lovely unit-naming conventions in White Dwarf and a bit of Futurama robot humor ("I think I even saw a two!"). I'm sorry if you took it personally :angel:


I still think (pretty much know) Valeria sent him those Catachan on purpose. She's courting for an invite.

I can sense the fanfics coming already.

Imagine what this guy would do if he found the one being in the galaxy that "understood" him. Would he choose to further work with her or add her to the collection?

I keep getting images of the Penguin's museum in Arkham City with Trazyn.

FashaTheDog
10-11-2011, 20:09
I can sense the fanfics coming already.

Might there be a sequel to Love Can Bloom, only starring Valaria and Trazyn?

Korraz
10-11-2011, 20:15
I just want to point out that back, when the Crons battled with Chaos 3.5 and Craftworlds for the Throne of What The Hell, the stuff wasn't moving either. Oh, sure, the initial rage, but after that had died down... They still did reasonably well in 4th edition (the Monolith continued to be the single most broken vehicle in 40k history), but again it behaved like lead. Even Dark Eldar went better than the Crons.
No, the rules were only one part of the problem. In the end, many people buy into an army because they like what they see, because they like the flair, or because they like what they hear about them in the fluff. Contrary to popular believe, there is no enraged Grognard popping up from nowhere every time somebody picks up a Chaos or 'Nid book with the intention of starting that army.
The problem was, that many people thought that Necrons were boring. In models, fluff, and, ultimately, in rules too.

Chaplain of Chaos
10-11-2011, 20:30
Well I guess its a good thing the imperium doesn't have to worry about the necrons anymore I suppose. Trazyn and the rest of the necrons colorful class of characters will probably negotiate peace so they can get their old bodies back and then have tea or something right up until the tyranids consume the galaxy.

The only new personality with any value is szeras as he actually seems to have some goals that don't involve planting a flag and building shopping malls.

The bearded one
10-11-2011, 20:44
Well I guess its a good thing the imperium doesn't have to worry about the necrons anymore I suppose. Trazyn and the rest of the necrons colorful class of characters will probably negotiate peace so they can get their old bodies back and then have tea or something right up until the tyranids consume the galaxy.

The only new personality with any value is szeras as he actually seems to have some goals that don't involve planting a flag and building shopping malls.

... and you say other people exaggerate?

Blink
10-11-2011, 20:56
You see this often in politics. When it's an opinion you agree with, you wouldn't notice your own exaggation if it blasted you with the force of a million exploding suns... But if you don't agree with the opinion, everything feels like a slight against you, whether the sentiment exists or not.

The bearded one
10-11-2011, 20:58
You see this often in politics. When it's an opinion you agree with, you wouldn't notice your own exaggation if it blasted you with the force of a million exploding suns... But if you don't agree with the opinion, everything feels like a slight against you, whether the sentiment exists or not.

True. And Ironic.


Keep in mind I have not done a lot of arguing in this discussion yet, and like both the old and new fluff, although am disappointed about a few missed chances that could have helped bring a bit of the old atmosphere into the new codex. I'm semi-neutral, as it were and I can relate to both sides. My appreciation of old fluff I think stems from the fact that it was well written, pasted all over with artwork (that wasn't confined to those silly boxes we have nowadays..) and that it was rather limited and therefore very mysterious. My appreciation for the new.. well.. Trazyn!

Haunter!
10-11-2011, 22:07
You see this often in politics. When it's an opinion you agree with, you wouldn't notice your own exaggation if it blasted you with the force of a million exploding suns... But if you don't agree with the opinion, everything feels like a slight against you, whether the sentiment exists or not.

The trolling has come full circle.

Blink
10-11-2011, 22:11
The trolling has come full circle.

*sigh*

What are you talking about? Yours from several pages ago along with Chaplain of Chaos's are the kinds of exaggeration I'm talking about.

Why do you insist on contributing nothing to the discussion?

Adra
10-11-2011, 22:27
So anyway...

I both love and hate Trazyn and I'll tell you why...

I Love Him because he is the ultimate hobbyist at heart. He builds massive space dioramas for goodness sake.

And I Hate Him because he doesn't stick to the canon!!! His hobby is SO not true to the fluff. My inner nerd just threw his toys out the pram!!!!

Reinholt
10-11-2011, 22:35
Just a quick point here - at what point did he ever say that the numbers he was looking at were RECENT ones, and not, say, numbers for the last 8-10 years? I'm not saying that he does have those numbers, but anedotal evidence of several necron armies and they're stock always being on the shelves doesnt really mean anything - the stock could always be there because it never sold, for example...


I just want to point out that back, when the Crons battled with Chaos 3.5 and Craftworlds for the Throne of What The Hell, the stuff wasn't moving either. Oh, sure, the initial rage, but after that had died down...

This is my point.

I am not saying only that Necrons have not sold well recently (prior to the new book), I am also saying they never sold that well to begin with. I am sure there are idiosyncratic examples where Necrons were decently represented, but on average, across the GW sales footprint, they were not that impressive. At a few indies I am aware of, Necrons were the worst selling 40k army (even behind sisters) for multiple years in a row.

The initial release was met with some level of interest; it was neither the best nor the worst release GW has seen. However, the tail of business (beyond the initial release) was lean, and Necrons have long been one of the weaker GW lines for 40k. As I stated, there are multiple fantasy armies that were outselling them as of the last time I checked, and that should not be happening for a main 40k army given the relative sales volumes between the two games.

Similar to the DE prior to their reboot, we can argue about the reasons why (boring / no background, poor rules, poor models, people hate robots/elves in space, not enough WD coverage or story inclusion, etc), but I think the lesson learned from the DE release is that if GW reboots an entire line with care and effort, more people will buy stuff from it.

I think guys like Trazyn are part of that thrust. It's clear they intended to add character to the necrons, and provide some purchase that people could relate to rather than just a monolithic horror, while not abandoning the background nor removing all elements of that from the force. Also, new rules and models, neither of which are 10 years old, help.

Haunter!
10-11-2011, 22:42
*sigh*

What are you talking about? Yours from several pages ago along with Chaplain of Chaos's are the kinds of exaggeration I'm talking about.

Why do you insist on contributing nothing to the discussion?

The irony of your worthless posts keeps adding up. I contributed to the discussion, you've done nothing but mourn the loss of the "deep and intricate background" of the old codex. You also insist on keeping this thread derailed. You cannot honestly say you're doing this for the betterment of the community or the discussion at hand. It's quite clear that you're only doing it to incite ire from those that continue to feed your trolling. You've also made yourself look a fool with your post about exaggerations that Beardy so concisely summed up. You see childe, when I'm exaggerating it's for effect to make my point made. I'm conscious of it. You, however, are either oblivious as to when you do it or simply a troll.

We get it, you don't like the army any more. That's the opinion you have cultivated and the majority of people hear have said they accept that. However, that is not what this thread's topic is about. It is about a single character that was introduced in the new book's background, not the background as a whole.

Vipoid
10-11-2011, 22:49
Just played a game with Trazyn, these are my thoughts in terms of actual gameplay:

1) Whilst not worth taking him for on it's own, relentless is quite useful - especailly on Immortals.

2) Only having a 3+ armour save is very annoying on a model with I2. It also means you can't let him soak up AP3 hits (well, you don't *want* to anyway).

3) This guy is quite easy to kill, but just doesn't stay dead. We weren't sure which order his abilities were meant to work, so we did WBB first, and then clones. He died about 6 times during the game, but didn't fail any WBB saves. Not a single one. :D

4) Whilst he doesn't stay dead, he also doesn't do an awful lot when he's alive. WS4 and no power weapon means he really struggles to damage units. Mindshackle scarabs weren't especially useful, as everything he controlled failed to wound.

He is fun to use, but it would have been nice if he was a little better in combat.

Daemonia
10-11-2011, 23:19
Lorewise? Well, I liked the old Necrons for a long time and all the shifty things they got up to. I liked that they were truly dead and emotionless in a way that other undead (such as vampires for instance) fail to be. I do, however, also like the new Necrons that are starting out simply as 'Space Tomb Kings' with all the pluses and minuses of that new behaviour/imagery.

Trazyn makes me think Games Workshop are having a dig at certain players that go to obsessive lengths to create massive dioramas or displays that are technically beautiful and awesome to look at but often go too far and change a lot of fluff. Oh I like him for sure but he is the archetypal moustache-pinching villain as others have pointed out. That's a good and bad thing for me...it's funny but not groundbreakingly so. His on and off thing with Valeria gives me a good laugh though.

So yeah overall? I liked the old Necrons and I like the new ones. Both had/have lots of cool stuff going for them and the odd bit I don't care for. Bear in mind that this is simply the start of new fluff- remember when the Tau came out? Lots of people stroked their beards and said they'd never get far or would be boring anime-styled Eldar. They eventually developed and grew on people...so I am sure the Newcrons will do the same.

Blink
10-11-2011, 23:45
Haunter... seriously.


The irony of your worthless posts keeps adding up.

Worthless posts, huh? You are saying *I* am trolling? You are actively trying to incite a response with inflammatory language. Let's keep this to a minimum.


I contributed to the discussion

You had *ONE* post saying you're waiting for the Trazyn and Valeria buddy comic, and everything else has been telling people "your army sounds boring" and inciting the fans of the old fluff to respond to you when you say things like "there's nothing stopping from playing your army as a bland collective of machines harvesting souls"


you've done nothing but mourn the loss of the "deep and intricate background" of the old codex.

I've done nothing but explain why the new fluff is inferior from a storytelling perspective and how Trazyn being a Necron means nothing; he could be from any other and people would still like him. Necron lost their unique character and he's a good example of that. This obvious leads to the discussions of what has been established as Necron for the last decade or so.


You cannot honestly say you're doing this for the betterment of the community or the discussion at hand. It's quite clear that you're only doing it to incite ire from those that continue to feed your trolling.

Pay attention to the tread. Look at the responses. How are people SUPPOSED to react when someone like you makes the effort to call something they cared about boring and then make ad hominem attacks against the persons who like them as well. No one is saying anything bad about you to you for liking the new fluff; I'm not anyway. The definition of trolling is in using incendiary language to provoke an emotional response. You are doing FAR more of that than I am.


You've also made yourself look a fool with your post about exaggerations that Beardy so concisely summed up.

What did Beardy sum up? You realize that if I were speaking in irony, I would be implying the opposite of what I said, right?

And for that matter, point out my exaggerations that you feel are so offensive compared to "That-one-guy-that-I-don't-like-because-being-a-smartass-isn't-grimdark-enough-for-me-mom-I-need-you-to-buy-me-more-black-nail-polish-while-I-brood-and-write-on-my-livejournal-about-how-life-is-unfair-and-no-one-understands-me".


You see childe

Name calling. Classy.


when I'm exaggerating it's for effect to make my point made.

You think everyone else doesn't? Almost everyone exaggerates to make a point when they really shouldn't. All it does is skew your opinion to a positive light under fallacious circumstances. If you can't make a clear point without the use of exaggeration, then perhaps your point isn't grounded at all.

Exaggeration is poisonous to a discussion and should be limited as much as possible so it remains civil.


We get it, you don't like the army any more. That's the opinion you have cultivated and the majority of people hear have said they accept that.

Who is the majority of people here who have said they accept it? Most of the discussion has been people going back and forth in an attempt to show why the old/new codex is superior. A lot of times it means the old codex advocates pointing out what people bashing on it get wrong (Completely mindless, Space nids, etc). You contributed to that discussion as well (even if you did start it off by calling it boring and offered the consolation that we can still "have our bland collective of machines"...)

DIRECTLY ON TOPIC TIME, WOO!:

I was reading the new Necron Codex, and on page 24, is it actually Trazyn that was in the Necron Lords Valeria kept killing, or were they just basically a Royal Court?

Minsc
11-11-2011, 00:07
Why do you insist on contributing nothing to the discussion?

Funny that you off all people should say that Blink. :rolleyes:
(I know, I'm not really contributing as such with this post, but that's better than copy-pasting the same negative criticism regarding the new necrons over and over again, in every topic about them, on warseer.)

Blink
11-11-2011, 00:12
Funny that you off all people should say that Blink. :rolleyes:
(I know, I'm not really contributing as such with this post, but that's better than copy-pasting the same negative criticism regarding the new necrons over and over again, in every topic about them, on warseer.)

Minsc... 2 things

1) What there is to like about Trazyn or dislike about him is directly related to the old codex vs the new codex. (Edit: as in, yeah we like him because he's a quirky collector with a peculiar attitude... But we dislike him because he's silly and irrelevant in the perspective of what makes a Necron.)

2) Tell me, by the time I posted about the backstory, what were people already talking about? What was the discussion going on?

Why do you hate to read about the downsides of the new Codex? These are new conversations that are happening with new people all the time. The world doesn't revolve around you; you are GOING to see the same discussion points come up again and again if the discussion follows the same tracks.

The bearded one
11-11-2011, 00:28
What did Beardy sum up?

I was kinda confused about that one myself.


Name calling. Classy.

blinkey has a point.

Robot Unicorn
11-11-2011, 00:30
I think he's an interesting character. Some of his fluff is amusing.

O&G'sRule
11-11-2011, 00:32
Personally I liked the "terminator movie" feel to the necrons, they feel like theyre just another lost race and not evil at all now. I would have liked the necrons to perhaps have become the first army with no hierarchy/ command structure just troops with a desire to kill everything. So whilst its an iteresting character, Id have preferred it in a different race

Blink
11-11-2011, 00:39
I do think it's rather unfortunate that we're probably not going to see much of Trazyn in canon, despite him being interesting. He might make an appearance occasionally in upcoming codecies, or in the rule book, but since GW is allergic to progressing the plot, we will probably NEVER find out about the man in the power armor, nor many of the other shenanigans he gets into.

He is the one Necron I want to see form partnerships with others in order to get some new junk.

Chaplain of Chaos
11-11-2011, 00:45
I was done rationally explaining why I dislike the current codex and the reasons why I believe that it can be evaluated as sub-par in comparison to the old one on the first day I read the Fluff.

Now i'm just slowly descending into what can only be described as a fugue state as I watch the Matt Ward apologists rant and rave about how interesting and fun Travyn is and all the other cooky cats who occupy Codex: Trollcrons.

Like the Deceiver I am no longer fully aware of my own mental state so lost in my bitter rantings have I become.

The sad truth is that there is nothing those of us who value quality, variety and consistency in 40k fluff can do. We will simply be subjected to further and more radical canon changes until the whole setting becomes and incoherent mess of identical factions.

I think 40k is suffering from a post-modern collapse of meaning. The meta-narratives which bound the factions are shifting faster with each codex and soon the internal structure of 40k will devolve into little more than an endless stream of Special Characters who are more flash than substance.


I realize it now. Matt Ward is a mad prophet from whose abyssal bowels will spring forth the great beast who will devour the 40k universe leaving only chaos and anarchy in its wake.

Balerion
11-11-2011, 00:48
Well I guess its a good thing the imperium doesn't have to worry about the necrons anymore I suppose. Trazyn and the rest of the necrons colorful class of characters will probably negotiate peace so they can get their old bodies back and then have tea or something right up until the tyranids consume the galaxy.

The Tyranids were seriously defanged in their last codex too, which is why the reduction of the "slow but unstoppable Necron domination" was all but guaranteed in the minds of anyone who has kept abreast of the development of the fluff across the past few editions.

I mourned the downgrade of Tyranid threat level, but it makes sense. This is supposed to be a universe of endless total war, so it doesn't make sense if one or two specific armies possess all of the requirements to basically guarantee that they will be the ultimate "winners" of the universe (even if it would take until Warhammer 400K for that to happen).

Blink
11-11-2011, 00:55
I don't think the Tyranids were particularly defanged... Hell the Astro-whatevers the Imperium uses listened out from the edges of the galaxy and all they heard was "Ork-ork-ork" and "nom-nom-nom"... We've only seen the tip of the iceburg for what the Tyranid have in store. Hell, the whole reason the Silent King decided to come back from exile was because he saw just how big a threat the Tyranid were.

The Tyranid are the last credible threat to the Galaxy in my opinion... Even Daemons have a tenuous grasp of reality which can apparently be subverted by Necron Technology all together with their Null Fields if they're strong enough.

FashaTheDog
11-11-2011, 01:03
... Even Daemons have a tenuous grasp of reality which can apparently be subverted by Necron Technology all together with their Null Fields if they're strong enough.

Also Draigo soloing the Warp. :wtf:

Also, it seems from reading this thread and some others that the fluff is turning more Necron players into the very army they play; a slightly senile cranky old coot who whines for the good old glory days of yore. Mat Ward just made 40K fluff reality.

Haunter!
11-11-2011, 01:27
Pay attention to the tread. Look at the responses. How are people SUPPOSED to react when someone like you makes the effort to call something they cared about boring and then make ad hominem attacks against the persons who like them as well. No one is saying anything bad about you to you for liking the new fluff; I'm not anyway. The definition of trolling is in using incendiary language to provoke an emotional response. You are doing FAR more of that than I am.
What makes you denouncing what other people enjoy any better? Or right, because it's in the defense of a source book for a game that should be elevated alongside the works of Homer and scrutinized as the highest level of art. I now see the error in my ways.

zerodemon
11-11-2011, 04:25
I love the updated Necron background. They were boring before; just Terminator stand ins.

Retribution
11-11-2011, 04:32
I was done rationally explaining why I dislike the current codex and the reasons why I believe that it can be evaluated as sub-par in comparison to the old one on the first day I read the Fluff.

Now i'm just slowly descending into what can only be described as a fugue state as I watch the Matt Ward apologists rant and rave about how interesting and fun Travyn is and all the other cooky cats who occupy Codex: Trollcrons.

Like the Deceiver I am no longer fully aware of my own mental state so lost in my bitter rantings have I become.

The sad truth is that there is nothing those of us who value quality, variety and consistency in 40k fluff can do. We will simply be subjected to further and more radical canon changes until the whole setting becomes and incoherent mess of identical factions.

I think 40k is suffering from a post-modern collapse of meaning. The meta-narratives which bound the factions are shifting faster with each codex and soon the internal structure of 40k will devolve into little more than an endless stream of Special Characters who are more flash than substance.


I realize it now. Matt Ward is a mad prophet from whose abyssal bowels will spring forth the great beast who will devour the 40k universe leaving only chaos and anarchy in its wake.

I think someone takes 40k fluff a bit too seriously eh? 40k has always been style over substance

Balerion
11-11-2011, 05:46
I don't think the Tyranids were particularly defanged... Hell the Astro-whatevers the Imperium uses listened out from the edges of the galaxy and all they heard was "Ork-ork-ork" and "nom-nom-nom"... We've only seen the tip of the iceburg for what the Tyranid have in store. Hell, the whole reason the Silent King decided to come back from exile was because he saw just how big a threat the Tyranid were.

The Tyranid are the last credible threat to the Galaxy in my opinion... Even Daemons have a tenuous grasp of reality which can apparently be subverted by Necron Technology all together with their Null Fields if they're strong enough.
Since you think that I'm going to have to play the card some of you guys brought out on earlier pages, and suggest that you must have only glanced at the fluff, and not actually given it a thorough reading.

The Tyranid codex changed the way the Hivemind was assumed/implied to work, turning it into a localized focii of Tyranid minds (including "characters" such as the Swarmlord) instead of widespread, unified entity on a galactic scale. The codex introduced more infighting among different Hivefleets, and eroded the amount of control the Tyranid were assumed to have on their bioengineering processes by including the "accidental" Ymgarl Genestealers.

The end result was almost exactly what happened to the Necrons; their monolithic unity was fractured and they were separated into isolated, independent groups. Their precision and coordination were compromised by the inclusion of characters who have their own goals and flawed personalities. Their weapons and bio/technologies were made less infallible.

Chaplain of Chaos
11-11-2011, 06:04
Which I don't understand as we all know they are never going to move the current timeline forward...

So what did it hurt having this looming threats hanging in the background.

Balerion
11-11-2011, 06:16
Because featuring a looming threat that is all but guaranteed its long-term success defeats the very purpose of having a static timeline.

Blink
11-11-2011, 09:37
The Tyranid codex changed the way the Hivemind was assumed/implied to work, turning it into a localized focii of Tyranid minds (including "characters" such as the Swarmlord) instead of widespread, unified entity on a galactic scale.

It's always been like that. Nodes for focusing the will of the Hive Mind to lesser beings have always existed. The Shadow in the Warp still spans VAST lengths though, wiping out psychic communication to entire planets and star systems.

I've read the 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition codecies, and despite new elements being added to the equation, it still seems nothing has changed from them being an encroaching threat with FAR more in store for the galaxy. To truly understand the scale of the Tyranid, remember that each Hive Fleet is a SPLINTER of the same amalgamation... Just think about that for a second. They are all part of the same unit at least as large as the galaxy itself and these are just the tips of the iceburg for how many Tyranid are out there. It's like if your fingers are tendrils of the Tyranid hive fleet, and all the rest of you is more Tyranid.

... And really where did all this Tyranid talk come from?

The bearded one
11-11-2011, 11:27
... And really where did all this Tyranid talk come from?

Trazyn -> Necron old vs new -> Defanging of Necron threat -> Defanging of Tyranid threat -> Threat of Tyranid fleets


I did always wonder if those hivefleet masses shown on maps and such are really in their entirity a mass of tyranid organisms, or simply the space they have occupied on their journey, though not occupied simultaneously, because if it's the former.. well, then the fleet at Macragge could never have beaten the Tyranid fleet.. you wouldn't even have called that a 'fleet', as it would be so gigantinormously vast as to occupy the entirity of space in virtually the entire Ultramar system and several lightyears around.

Thanatos_elNyx
11-11-2011, 11:27
2) For such a mad collector, I kinda expected a few more pieces of abstract wargear or artefacts.

No true collector would ever remove those pieces of abstract wargear or artefacts from the original packaging!

Ravariel
11-11-2011, 11:27
The sad truth is that there is nothing those of us who value quality, variety and consistency in 40k fluff can do.

Now, I'm no fluff nerd, but when has 40k fluff EVER been about quality, variety and consistency? The codexes offer little except a few short stories about timelines/epochs/empires/etc and certain important events, much like the summaries at the end of chapters in your social studies books, and the novels have always been iffy as far as canon, and mostly terribly written anyway. Perhaps the Oldcron codex was some halcyon day of truly subtle and deep meaningful fluff that kept everything in the universe at the time consistent, yet introduced a menace for which there could be no answer.

Except you know as well as I that that isn't true. Oldcrons (specifically C'Tan) shoehorned more galaxy-wide retcons than any book I can remember, and substituting lack of content for subtlety is a bit disingenuous.

Anyway, like I said, I'm no fluff nerd. I play the game for the game, not the stories. I consider most of the fluff of the universe to be absolutely terrible. There are a few ideas in the general scope of the universe that I enjoy (fascism as necessary for survival in the Imperium, excess literally causing the downfall of a race and the birth of a reality-shifting god in the Eldar, and the Nids as a danger so great that noone in the entire universe seems to really understand it yet (otherwise it would all of a sudden be everyone vs Nids and chaos... alliances all around.... but I digress), etc), but when it comes to anything specific, the entirety of the fluff pretty much makes me gag (and cringe as a writer).

That said, Trollzyn is kinda cute, but his personality makes more sense as a Tzeentch herald or some crazy Eldar farseer.

azimaith
11-11-2011, 11:29
Trazyn -> Necron old vs new -> defanging of Necron threat -> Defanging of Tyranid threat -> Threat of Tyranid fleets

Next step is profit I assume?

In any case, I expected his rules to provide something useful to the army. That was probably the most disappointing thing about his execution in what I consider the most important part of the codex.

I could see lots of people liking Trazyn for their own reasons, but I can't imagine anyone fielding him with the intent of him being competitive.

Well maybe if their metagame is all blobs of guardsmen or orks I guess.

Vipoid
11-11-2011, 11:31
No true collector would ever remove those pieces of abstract wargear or artefacts from the original packaging!

Hmm, I didn't think of that. :p

The bearded one
11-11-2011, 11:31
Next step is profit I assume?

No, ???? comes first. ;)

Blink
11-11-2011, 11:53
I did always wonder if those hivefleet masses shown on maps and such are really in their entirity a mass of tyranid organisms, or simply the space they have occupied on their journey, though not occupied simultaneously, because if it's the former.. well, then the fleet at Macragge could never have beaten the Tyranid fleet.. you wouldn't even have called that a 'fleet', as it would be so gigantinormously vast as to occupy the entirity of space in virtually the entire Ultramar system and several lightyears around.

If you read page 6 of the Tyranid Codex, it specifically mentions in the omniscient perspective that the Hive Fleets are all part of one larger assemblage. Trying to imagine the scope of that is mindblowing. This group of organisms encompasses more space than an entire galaxy... Good lord.

Thanatos_elNyx
11-11-2011, 12:01
... just Terminator stand ins.

JUST!? Terminator Stand Ins.

You don't like the Terminator franchise?

Shun the non-believer, SHUUUUUUUUUUUNNN!!!!

The bearded one
11-11-2011, 12:07
If you read page 6 of the Tyranid Codex, it specifically mentions in the omniscient perspective that the Hive Fleets are all part of one larger assemblage. Trying to imagine the scope of that is mindblowing. This group of organisms encompasses more space than an entire galaxy... Good lord.

Does it mention those organisms encompass more space than the galaxy or is that your conclusion? :) If it's so, then man.. if we manage to defeat it, then our galaxy is going to be getting a whole lot of extra mass :D All those bodies floating in space would probably come together and form planets of their own :p

Blink
11-11-2011, 12:19
Does it mention those organisms encompass more space than the galaxy or is that your conclusion?

If they are 3 dimensionally wrapping around our galaxy (as shown from the various Hive Fleet coming from the Galactic South East, Galactic North East, AND from under the Galactic plane), and they are all part of one entity, they occupy a LOT of space, geometrically far more than the galaxy itself.


If it's so, then man.. if we manage to defeat it, then our galaxy is going to be getting a whole lot of extra mass All those bodies floating in space would probably come together and form planets of their own

It's "easy" enough to "stop" a Hive Fleet in its tracks at least. If you blow up a Hive Fleet half way through or starve it in its path, it will redirect course or hibernate in dead space. So eventually, we could probably redirect Tyranid AROUND the galaxy and they would just eventually ignore it on their quest to devour other galaxies.

The big one to worry about is Leviathan, since it is coming up from under the Galactic plane, which means that pretty much no planet is safe.

The bearded one
11-11-2011, 12:23
If they are 3 dimensionally wrapping around our galaxy (as shown from the various Hive Fleet coming from the Galactic South East, Galactic North East, AND from under the Galactic plane), and they are all part of one entity, they occupy a LOT of space, geometrically far more than the galaxy itself.

good point


If you blow up a Hive Fleet half way through

I'm not sure I understand that one?

Korraz
11-11-2011, 12:28
You can't direct them away from a GALAXY. You can present them with a more profitable path, to go to other star systems, but you can't do that with the whole galaxy. The resonance produced by living organisms draws them in, and the Astronomican isn't helping at all.

Blink
11-11-2011, 12:36
I'm not sure I understand that one?

An Imperial fleet blew up in the middle of Hive Fleet Behemoth, taking a MASSIVE chunk out of them and then the Ultramarines were able to triumph against them. The Tyranid didn't bother the area anymore (at least not for a while) and Behemoth itself was considered wiped out. Kraken and Gorgon afflicted the surrounding area, but that's pretty much it. It seemed the Hive Mind decided that wasn't the best entrance into the galaxy haha.

The bearded one
11-11-2011, 12:42
I thought that this was simply during the space battle above Macragge, that an imperial ship detonated it's engines in the middle of the fleet and took out such a large portion that the ultramarines could destroy the remainders. What I thought you meant was blowing up the middle of the hive fleet "tentacle" so that it's tip would die off and the remainder redirect :)

Liber
11-11-2011, 12:45
Necrons are just humans in space who happen to also be robots now. Great we have another empire building ancient alien race my goodness how generic.



I am ashamed to say it, but your pain (and others) kinda makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside...;) (misery loves company kinda thing)

You see my beloved Tau suffered a similar fate, and went from being an exotic and somewhat 'alien' race to nothing but a pale shadow, a poor imitation of the Imperium of Man...The interesting bits of fluff and detailed stories that were in the first book were pretty much erased, and replaced with little else.

Anyways, I was a big fan of the old Necron fluff, it was dark, unique, and as others have said, tragic. My friend used to play them, and he too mourns what has been lost...though neither of us have read the new book too see what kind of quality the fluff replacing it has.

Why GW didn't just have the 'crons stage a major rebellion against their C'tan masters and then preserve the past story is beyond me, but it makes me glad we switched to fantasy so long ago, as this seems to be a 40k trend.


@the topic of the thread: I like what i have read of Trazyn the Infinite...so it gives me hope that although what i thought of as excellent fluff was destroyed, at least it doesn't seem that bad fluff is whats replacing it.

Blink
11-11-2011, 12:46
Hmm, that would be interesting. I don't think there's any fluff that says specifically if you break off a tentacle, the tip dies off. It would sort of make sense.

Geep
11-11-2011, 15:14
Anyways, I was a big fan of the old Necron fluff, it was dark, unique, and as others have said, tragic. My friend used to play them, and he too mourns what has been lost...though neither of us have read the new book too see what kind of quality the fluff replacing it has.


So without reading the new fluff you've already decided you hate it and it is clearly awful, leading to the mourning of past fluff?

Whether or not you like or hate the new fluff (I like some bits, hate others) this kind of attitude (which has been seen in this thread multiple times) is really pointless. If you haven't taken the time to read the new stuff then you can only pretend to have an opinion on it.

Necrofencer
11-11-2011, 17:16
Since the 2 first posts "Mod-review before posting" made my post invisible far too long (how many pages can you guys pump out in so few time, seriously), I repost it here.


I don't think the necrons changed as much as one would like to believe. They've just got hit by the Reverse C'Tan Syndrome pretty hard.

I mean, go through the book. Stop anytime some personnality quirk or "anything not being a routine program or an extremely vague remnant of personnality transformed into a routine program". Now count the times it is NOT related to the nobility... So yeah, the commoners did not change, only the lords (and crypteks now) did.

In fact, if you take the army list and remove the Overlord (basically leaving only the Destroyer Lord as HQ) and the Praetorians, you have the old codex with more units. An army of mindless or near-mindless machines lead by an highly intelligent and even more omnicidal lord. And he won't crack trollish jokes while dramatically speaking of his master plan to conquer the galaxy, he'll just wordlessly go about his business with his troops (Harvest, that is).


On the topic of the Tragic Destiny of the necrons, sharding the C'Tan doesn't make it any less tragic. Or maybe the history of the Imperium isn't tragic because it survived the Heresy and the one of the Eldars isn't either, as they have effective ways of pushing back She-Who-Thirsts? Hell no, the Necron may have defeated the C'Tan, they're still soulless bastards who gave just about everything that mattered to them for a stupid spot of hope and ended up paying for something that got yanked out of their reach (true immortality).

The old Codex:Necrons was about the C'Tan, this one is about the delusions of grandeur of the lords, going insane as a side effect of their stupidity of yore. So the Necron Race may very well conquer the galaxy. Yeah, and? They will still have the dubious pleasure of irreversibly decaying. And contrary to the other races, they can't say "ok, let's stop this foolish ride here and eat this gun", that won't do the trick.

The Codex expanding almost only on the rainbow-and-flowers view of the lords about this situation, those fools who willingly obsess themselves with whatever hobby they may find to delude themselves, doesn't change the simple truth. The Necron are doomed, in very much the same way they were descripted in the old fluff, and I'm pretty sure that, were the Codex written through the PoV of the 99,99% commoners and not the 0,01% lords, it would be suicide-inducingly dark.


As for the actual topic of this thread, Trazyn that is, he's pretty awesome once you get it in context. This guy decided that, since he has an infinite amount of time to burn, he better have fun doing it. The lesser nobility of Solemnace must have shining heads form all the facepalming they have to do. I don't see the guy as easier to follow than Zahndrek. The commoners simply have the joy (or would, if they could) of being hijacked from times to times, in addition to the usual stuff they go through.

Dhurrin
12-11-2011, 00:11
So without reading the new fluff you've already decided you hate it and it is clearly awful, leading to the mourning of past fluff?

Whether or not you like or hate the new fluff (I like some bits, hate others) this kind of attitude (which has been seen in this thread multiple times) is really pointless. If you haven't taken the time to read the new stuff then you can only pretend to have an opinion on it.

Not technically true. I haven't seen or read Twilight and I can tell you everything that happens in the books/movies purely from everything I've heard from people when the movies first came out and all the whining took place.

Same here, before the codex ever came out we pretty much already knew all the fluff bar a certain few details. It is more than enough to form an opinion on. I bought and read the codex and it is not that much different/more than what Yakface gave us in the rumours ahead of time.

Angry_Ron
12-11-2011, 01:18
Huh, in terms of the new Necron fluff side of things, I personally feel that people have forgotten how purposely malleable the fluff is and how vast the setting is. Why not have a heavily damaged tomb world, resulting in the residing lord and his subjects being rendered completely emotionless once reawakened? If you don't like Trazyn or any other aspect of the fluff, why not throw in a wee bit of imagination and write your own! Thats the beauty of 40k. :)

Plus, I personally do not approve of the tone of some people here as it seems somewhat arrogant, in a way saying 'my taste in fluff is better than those uneducated plebs!" Personally, I believe there is no such thing as good or bad taste; just differing opinions. And do we really need to separate each other over personnel preference? Can't we agree to disagree and still get along fine with each other? It would be nice if for once we could have a nice, friendly discussion but alas, this is the internet... :(

Dhurrin
12-11-2011, 02:25
Huh, in terms of the new Necron fluff side of things, I personally feel that people have forgotten how purposely malleable the fluff is and how vast the setting is. Why not have a heavily damaged tomb world, resulting in the residing lord and his subjects being rendered completely emotionless once reawakened? If you don't like Trazyn or any other aspect of the fluff, why not throw in a wee bit of imagination and write your own! Thats the beauty of 40k. :)

I believe a lot of ire directed at the Newcrons codex stems from this fact. If you want your Necrons to be like the Oldcrons the only way you can fit that into the new fluff is if your army is essentially broken. No one wants their fluff for their army to be a result of theirs being broken. It is barely one step above you being wrong if you want to do this. The new fluff shows us all these wonderful things and then goes on to say "Oh you want to play Oldcrons? It's ok, we'll just say your guys are broken. Everyone else is having a good time cause we're not broken, but you are." (Exaggeration for effect).

It is the reason why a few of us have suggested that it would have been better if the war against the C'tan were brought into the 41st millennium instead of being relegated to the history books because then you could have the situation of Oldcrons vs Newcrons and then everyone would be happy.

Liber
12-11-2011, 02:44
So without reading the new fluff you've already decided you hate it and it is clearly awful, leading to the mourning of past fluff?



try again.

this time actually read my post.

really. some people. :rolleyes:

Lebensform
12-11-2011, 06:59
Personally, I believe there is no such thing as good or bad taste; just differing opinions. And do we really need to separate each other over personnel preference? Can't we agree to disagree and still get along fine with each other? :(

I agree to disagree with your request that we can get along fine with each other.... Do you agree to disagree with my agreement? Or do you agree to disagree with my disagreement? Or do you disagree to agree with my disagreement? Or do you agree to agree with my disagreement? In all, do you agree to agree with my disagreement to disagree with your agreement to agree?

Is this in bad taste?

Geep
12-11-2011, 07:16
try again.

this time actually read my post.

really. some people.


neither of us have read the new book

You're right. How could I possibly get the impression that you hadn't read the new book for comparison?


I believe a lot of ire directed at the Newcrons codex stems from this fact. If you want your Necrons to be like the Oldcrons the only way you can fit that into the new fluff is if your army is essentially broken. No one wants their fluff for their army to be a result of theirs being broken.
This is the first time I've clearly seen explained what is wrong with having an army like the 'Oldcrons'.
I get why people dislike this, but I also think there are other options- people who get into power (especially in the regimented, probably by birth system described the Necrontyr lived under) are not always the best leaders/ most level headed. Why can't someone have been a bit... 'omnicidal' before the biotransferance, and be functioning perfectly well in current times doing what they feel is right?

It'll really never be possible to please everyone with the background, especially with a race like the Necrons whose foundation was never very well established (for a very long tme they were just 'mysterious raiders'). I don't think the new book is perfect, but I'm at least glad it's not a lot worse (as some other books have been, IMO).

Blink
12-11-2011, 07:20
You're right. How could I possibly get the impression that you hadn't read the new book for comparison?

Go back and read what he said again. Where did he say anywhere that he hates the new fluff and that it's awful? (As you seem to THINK he said: "So without reading the new fluff you've already decided you hate it and it is clearly awful, leading to the mourning of past fluff?")

Reading comprehension. Use it.

Dhurrin
12-11-2011, 07:38
Go back and read what he said again. Where did he say anywhere that he hates the new fluff and that it's awful? (As you seem to THINK he said: "So without reading the new fluff you've already decided you hate it and it is clearly awful, leading to the mourning of past fluff?")

Reading comprehension. Use it.

Though it pains me to say it, Blink is right. Although I won't be so...direct when I say he mentioned his friend not liking it rather than him.

And Blink? A little kindness goes a long way.


This is the first time I've clearly seen explained what is wrong with having an army like the 'Oldcrons'.
I get why people dislike this, but I also think there are other options- people who get into power (especially in the regimented, probably by birth system described the Necrontyr lived under) are not always the best leaders/ most level headed. Why can't someone have been a bit... 'omnicidal' before the biotransferance, and be functioning perfectly well in current times doing what they feel is right

I'll agree that it is possible to fit in Oldcrons in some manner into the new fluff, as awkward as it will be depending on how much you developed your fluff... But I feel that having a Lord with a degraded personality, his only true emotion being varying degrees of hate at all life and at his gods for imprisoning him in this immortal shell, going into battle with his god at his side to harvest the galaxy with a phalanx of Pariahs... Is a bit like having a Khorne berseker warlord joining the Greater Good, while still worshipping Khorne, because he feels a love to all sentient creatures and at heart he really is a pacifist. (exaggeration for effect)


It'll really never be possible to please everyone with the background, especially with a race like the Necrons whose foundation was never very well established (for a very long tme they were just 'mysterious raiders'). I don't think the new book is perfect, but I'm at least glad it's not a lot worse (as some other books have been, IMO).

I'll be the first to admit I'm on the Oldcron side of the debate, but I cannot argue that there is one or two gems in the codex. I personally like the Crypteks. Give them the funny powers and let them have fun while the Lord rules the Tombworld and leads the armies. Almost like Captains and Quartermasters in the Navies of old. The codex is not universally bad... Just a good 90% of it is :shifty:

Blink
12-11-2011, 07:47
Though it pains me to say it, Blink is right. Although I won't be so...direct when I say he mentioned his friend not liking it rather than him.

And Blink? A little kindness goes a long way.

You're right. I kept my cool for a long time, but it's finally grating on me. The people who support the new Codex have been relentlessly calling the fans of the old codex ignorant, unimaginative, exaggeration and resorting to ad hominem comments even in the face of logical arguments from proponents of the old Codex. It's finally grating on me and seeing comments like that.

I'll try and keep it level.

Dhurrin
12-11-2011, 07:59
You're right. I kept my cool for a long time, but it's finally grating on me. The people who support the new Codex have been relentlessly calling the fans of the old codex ignorant, unimaginative, exaggeration and resorting to ad hominem comments even in the face of logical arguments from proponents of the old Codex. It's finally grating on me and seeing comments like that.

I'll try and keep it level.

A wise man once said "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity."

Adra
12-11-2011, 08:06
You're right. I kept my cool for a long time, but it's finally grating on me. The people who support the new Codex have been relentlessly calling the fans of the old codex ignorant, unimaginative, exaggeration and resorting to ad hominem comments even in the face of logical arguments from proponents of the old Codex. It's finally grating on me and seeing comments like that.

I'll try and keep it level.

There seems to be plenty on name calling on both sides. Its such a shame because its a pointless argument about taste which will never see an end. I wonder how folks would feel if this Necron codex was the first and this was the only fluff. I like the old and the new fluff and i dont see that as a conflict, but i do find myself much more excited about putting my army story together using the new fluff. Maybe that means im rubbish or the fluff is or whatever but it did a number on me thats for certain :)

titilititi
12-11-2011, 08:06
I've ridden the new necrons fluff, and I find it all boring.

They have been betrayed by C'tans, which makes them a little bit sypathetic.
They respect a kind of "Jus in Bello".
Their special characters are all verbose...

To me the only grim thing about them is their helmet (which the fluff in the present codex doesn't even try to explain).

And when Ward gives you a small fact that could be frightening (the detention of someone who seems to be Eldrad, or at least a farsser) on Ghelen, it's still written to be reassurant.

Every Eldar, every human or over-human is described a lot scarier than those empty Halloween costumes.

In fact, I know where Ward Found inspiration. It's easy, as they already have the same kind of weapons (and heads): the aliens from the Tim Burton's movie, "Mars Attacks!"
It's a pitty, because I find their new range, the new vehicles in particular, is a real success.

The bearded one
12-11-2011, 09:28
In fact, I know where Ward Found inspiration. It's easy, as they already have the same kind of weapons (and heads): the aliens from the Tim Burton's movie, "Mars Attacks!"

eh? Heads?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Hc27foH9KAw/TPQjVsb4YAI/AAAAAAAADtk/GzxIv9mlROw/s400/mars2-16-09.jpg

http://www.tabletophell.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/necron_warrior.jpg

Rick Blaine
12-11-2011, 09:40
You're right. I kept my cool for a long time, but it's finally grating on me. The people who support the new Codex have been relentlessly calling the fans of the old codex ignorant, unimaginative, exaggeration and resorting to ad hominem comments even in the face of logical arguments from proponents of the old Codex. It's finally grating on me and seeing comments like that.

I'll try and keep it level.

What are you talking about, you've been combative and subtly insulting from the start.

On an unrelated topic, where's the Ignore button?

Blink
12-11-2011, 09:46
What are you talking about, you've been combative and subtly insulting from the start.

Where? I haven't attacked anyone's person. I think you have me confused with someone else. I will gladly debate anyone on the issue, but the closest I came to insulting was telling people they need to learn what a tragedy is, and this last example of telling someone to use reading comprehension, which I understand was pushing that same uncivil discussion I don't care for.

Edit:


On an unrelated topic, where's the Ignore button?

This is something I don't understand. Why would you want to willfully ignore something, even opinions you don't like? Isn't it best to embrace opinions with an open mind, and if you don't agree with it, present the evidence for why it's wrong?

Korraz
12-11-2011, 09:50
What are you talking about, you've been combative and subtly insulting from the start.

On an unrelated topic, where's the Ignore button?

There is no dedicated one. You find the function in your User CP (upper left in the theme I'm using), "Edit Ignore List"

Angry_Ron
12-11-2011, 11:39
I agree to disagree with your request that we can get along fine with each other.... Do you agree to disagree with my agreement? Or do you agree to disagree with my disagreement? Or do you disagree to agree with my disagreement? Or do you agree to agree with my disagreement? In all, do you agree to agree with my disagreement to disagree with your agreement to agree?

Is this in bad taste?

:D I might just have to sig that...

Rick Blaine
12-11-2011, 11:40
This is something I don't understand. Why would you want to willfully ignore something, even opinions you don't like? Isn't it best to embrace opinions with an open mind, and if you don't agree with it, present the evidence for why it's wrong?

I'm willing to ignore just about anything after it's been rammed down my throat a few dozen times. You got plenty of good counter-arguments from plenty of people and you have dismissed them all, there's no point in debating anything with you. You have fun fighting your little war, I'm not interested. Bye bye now.


There is no dedicated one. You find the function in your User CP (upper left in the theme I'm using), "Edit Ignore List"
Thanks :)

Blink
12-11-2011, 11:48
I'm willing to ignore just about anything after it's been rammed down my throat a few dozen times. You got plenty of good counter-arguments from plenty of people and you have dismissed them all, there's no point in debating anything with you.

Dismissed them all? Where have I been anything but active and sporting in debate? I've tried endlessly to keep it civil, responded to my opponent's arguments whenever they presented a response, even if it was laced with vitriol, and have yet to dismiss anyone's arguments.

titilititi
12-11-2011, 12:41
@ The bearded one

"eh? Heads?"

Yes, even if necrons ones are metal whereas Tim Burton's martians are made of flesh, both of them are designed to look like human skulls... You already noticed it, don't you?

MajorWesJanson
12-11-2011, 12:50
I was done rationally explaining why I dislike the current codex and the reasons why I believe that it can be evaluated as sub-par in comparison to the old one on the first day I read the Fluff.

Now i'm just slowly descending into what can only be described as a fugue state as I watch the Matt Ward apologists rant and rave about how interesting and fun Travyn is and all the other cooky cats who occupy Codex: Trollcrons.

Like the Deceiver I am no longer fully aware of my own mental state so lost in my bitter rantings have I become.

The sad truth is that there is nothing those of us who value quality, variety and consistency in 40k fluff can do. We will simply be subjected to further and more radical canon changes until the whole setting becomes and incoherent mess of identical factions.

I think 40k is suffering from a post-modern collapse of meaning. The meta-narratives which bound the factions are shifting faster with each codex and soon the internal structure of 40k will devolve into little more than an endless stream of Special Characters who are more flash than substance.


I realize it now. Matt Ward is a mad prophet from whose abyssal bowels will spring forth the great beast who will devour the 40k universe leaving only chaos and anarchy in its wake.

I've been reading the past 9 pages of arguing after the first page of a topic about a character I found interesting. Lots of pointless posturing on all sides, from a few posters in particular, but this post in particular struck me as having nearly all the worst aspects of debating in it.

First line positioning poster as rational, and therefore opponents are irrational. Check.

Points for crediting belief over fact, but still trying to establish the idea that the new codex is sub-par as a fact vs an opinion.

Demonizing opponents and using pejoratives, accusing people with opposing opinions of "ranting and raving" and calling the book "Codex:Trollcons" check.

Claiming victimhood and implying that those who do not agree with the poster do not value quality, variety, or consistancy. Check.

Use of descriptive jargon to indicate mental superiority. Check.

Obligatory shot at Mat Ward. Check.



A few points on the topic in general, based on the idea that the changes to 40K are wholly negative. Many of the changes made to the fluff and mechanics- heroic characters getting a focus, some homogenization of units and armies, "kooky" rules and fluff, seems all like a throwback to Rogue Trader and 2nd Edition, the "Golden Age" of 40K. Seems ironic to me. As things get closer to the way they were, People who wish the game and setting was more like the old days either become or are drowned out by people complaining about the changes.


On this thread, it is an error to presume that arguing the topic of the old book vs the new one is any way on topic. the defense I have seen for the off-topic shift is that it is "impossible" to discuss the character without bringing up the old vs new debate. That is entirely false. Not only can a character be discussed on his own merits without hijacking the discussion into a referendum on the fluff, most of the posts that follow the shift don't even bother to mention Trayzn.

the claim that Trayzn cannot be discussed is just a ploy to hijack yet another thread with a debate that is off-topic, and then follow up that debate with a number of arguments between posters that has no purpose in anything besides private correspondence. If I was a Mod, I would be issuing warnings and likely closing or deleting this hijacked thread.


This is something I don't understand. Why would you want to willfully ignore something, even opinions you don't like? Isn't it best to embrace opinions with an open mind, and if you don't agree with it, present the evidence for why it's wrong?

I find that when I add people to my ignore list, it is not because I disagree with their opinion, but because I find that the vast majority of that person's posts are poorly presented- either by being insulting, condescending, highly repetitive, disingenuous, disrespectful of other's opinions, try to claim their opinions as fact, or likely to contribute nothing to the conversation. I respect the right of people to their opinions, and to defend them, but that does not mean that others are required to listen to that person, either. Even a valid message can be damaged by a poor messenger. It's the same reason I strongly dislike political pundits.




On topic:
I love Trayzn as a character. He has that mix of obsession, sarcasm, romanticism, and ability to completely miss the point that makes him not only amusing but appealing. I would not go so far as to call him a villian protagonist, but he does seem like a cross between Lawful-Evil and Chaotic Neutral. I guess that would put him somewhere on the dark side of true neutral, but with an erratic personality.

The bearded one
12-11-2011, 12:51
@ The bearded one

"eh? Heads?"

Yes, even if necrons ones are metal whereas Tim Burton's martians are made of flesh, both of them are designed to look like human skulls... You already noticed it, don't you?

That's a pretty poor link to 'obviously' be Ward's inspiration, Necron design was already established before Ward anyway..

Nocculum
12-11-2011, 12:57
Despite the quality of the book, models, rules and internal balance...

I'm somewhat nerd raging at the distinctly overt use of Battlestar Galactica aesthetics...

Cylon Raiders anyone?

The bearded one
12-11-2011, 12:59
And I found the ghost Ark design, and portions of other ones, reminiscent of Egyptian ships, with that distinctive "hood" at the back.

Blink
12-11-2011, 13:00
I love Trayzn as a character. He has that mix of obsession, sarcasm, romanticism, and ability to completely miss the point that makes him not only amusing but appealing. I would not go so far as to call him a villian protagonist, but he does seem like a cross between Lawful-Evil and Chaotic Neutral. I guess that would put him somewhere on the dark side of true neutral, but with an erratic personality.

Whew, something on the topic of Trazyn I can respond to again.

What are you referring to when you say he has the ability to completely miss the point?

If you're talking about his note to Valeria, don't you think it's rather odd that she sends the exact force "against" him that would clue him in that she has the "eye" of a collector (which she does)... Particularly a force of jungle fighters that would be out of their element in a tomb? I'm not so sure he missed the point, but don't you think that it seems more like that is the message she WANTED to send to him, perhaps to get a better look at what he has collected?

That sounds like speculation, but the evidence given seems to point to that. In the Grey Knights book, she has no qualms engaging other races if it means getting a look at their secrets. In the Necron book, it would seem just TOO big of a coincidence that he would miss the point and still conclude that she's a collector.

titilititi
12-11-2011, 13:00
That's a pretty poor link to 'obviously' be Ward's inspiration, Necron design was already established before Ward anyway..

It's not what I say, I don't even pretend Matt Ward could establish a design.
What I say is that Matt Ward's necrons behaviors are as foolish as the Martians from the movie... The passage on "the eldar farseer's head" in Ghelen is however pretty the same to what happens to Pierce Brosnan in the movie -> his head stuck on a chihuahua body, but continuing to play tricks to the nasty aliens.

MajorWesJanson
12-11-2011, 13:02
Despite the quality of the book, models, rules and internal balance...

I'm somewhat nerd raging at the distinctly overt use of Battlestar Galactica aesthetics...

Cylon Raiders anyone?

Necrons have had the pseudo-egyptian aesthetic since the start. As for "Cylon Raiders" the new BSG was beaten by the Battlefleet Gothic Necrons and by Stargate.

Nocculum
12-11-2011, 13:20
Quite correct Wes.

Nothing is original, and nobody will ever be happy on the internet, though I like to be 'that guy' :).

I think Trazyn is an interesting and unconventional twist on the Necron aesthetic and unique within a fairly obvious egyptian themed undead in space army enough to warrant consideration as far as using him goes.

The bearded one
12-11-2011, 13:28
I finally got the chance to read his entry in the codex. He's a scoring unit, which is quite nice, especially because this special rule (that makes him scoring) allows me to exclaim "Ah, a new piece for my collection!" when he gets to an objective :D

Rick Blaine
12-11-2011, 13:48
I finally got the chance to read his entry in the codex. He's a scoring unit, which is quite nice, especially because this special rule (that makes him scoring) allows me to exclaim "Ah, a new piece for my collection!" when he gets to an objective :D

It also allows you to model some really unique objectives.

The bearded one
12-11-2011, 14:03
Valeria as an objective against GKs :p "Valeria's love is his true objective!" *



* this is how those rumours get started..

Liber
12-11-2011, 15:20
Go back and read what he said again. Where did he say anywhere that he hates the new fluff and that it's awful? (As you seem to THINK he said: "So without reading the new fluff you've already decided you hate it and it is clearly awful, leading to the mourning of past fluff?")

Reading comprehension. Use it.

Thanks for saving me the trouble.

Much appreciated.

Geep
12-11-2011, 16:45
It does seem I misread your post- sorry. No offence was meant- I was just expressing a general frustration at people who go along with the haters crowd with no real idea themselves. Ironically i managed a similar feat.

Anyway, since I don't think I've actually mentioned it yet- I do like Trazyn. I don't see his relationship with Valeria as a love thing- more goading her, trying to get himself a decent superhero to pass the time fighting with. If you do live for eternity I can easily see his sarcastic outlook developing, and 'playing' with others for fun.

SideshowLucifer
13-11-2011, 00:45
I don't know why people keep saying that they ruined the old fluff. Honestly, when I look at the old fluff and the new fluff, I think the Deceiver has his own army and his own lies, which was the first book. The new book is all the Necrons which he and the Nightbringer doesn't control.
I believe the Deceiver's Army is still the threat that it was before, though likely exaggerated as is the norm for such a creature. I like the idea that there is an army of necrons still enslaved and is a constant reminder of the dangers to the free Necrons.