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wyvirn
10-11-2011, 00:06
I've been playing dwarfs for the better part of a decade, and don't play fantasy much because I've grown a bit bored with them. I've been thinking about getting a new army, and I'm thinking of Chaos Dwarfs. Assuming I can proxy a few models, I'm likely to get the book. But before I take the plunge, could someone with the book tell me how different a (mostly) CD army is to a traditionalist army?

blood_beast
10-11-2011, 00:30
What exactly do you need to know? I have the book, just unsure of hat you are asking.

wyvirn
10-11-2011, 00:36
The problem I have with normal dwarfs is I feel everything but slayers are just warriors with extra X,Y, or Z. That and I can't help but rely on shooting to get the bulk of the kills. I want to know if there is more unit variety in a CD.

Duke Ramulots
10-11-2011, 00:50
Do Chaos Dwarfs still have hobgoblins?

Rogue
10-11-2011, 01:41
I've been playing dwarfs for the better part of a decade, and don't play fantasy much because I've grown a bit bored with them. I've been thinking about getting a new army, and I'm thinking of Chaos Dwarfs. Assuming I can proxy a few models, I'm likely to get the book. But before I take the plunge, could someone with the book tell me how different a (mostly) CD army is to a traditionalist army?

Book?? Are you trying to play CD in the 8th edition, and if so are you looking for an official book from GW or a fanbook? I have to ask since the last time that there was even a list was back in the 6th edition over a decade ago. The last time that there were even models or books was the 5th, I think, not exactly an authority of CD releases.

Brother Alexos
10-11-2011, 01:56
He means Tamurkhan. Or at least he should, considering that's the newest book.

wyvirn
10-11-2011, 02:29
that's it. I just couldn't remember how to spell it.

[DaT]Seraf
10-11-2011, 04:19
well with the Chaos Dwarfs List in Tamurkhan you have the option to take
-two kinds of infantry Infernals(Core or Elite) and Hobgoblins
-Light Cavalry (Hobgoblins)
-Monstrous Infantry (K'daai)
-Monsters
-Monstrous Beasts
-Warmaschines

so there is more diversity in it, its just not all dwarfs, so if you have no problem fielding differnt styled units then yes they are more suitable

hope that helps to give you a picture of the choices

RanaldLoec
10-11-2011, 08:38
And you get to play in the magic phase.

The army looks fun to play and I'm on the verge of adding a few to my warriors of chaos.

AlphariusOmegon20
10-11-2011, 16:25
Seraf;5901427']
-Monstrous Infantry (K'daai)


Regular K'daai are Monstrous Infantry, K'daai Destroyers are Monsters.

wyvirn
24-11-2011, 22:59
Well, at the risk of being a threadromancer, I just got Tamurkhan, and from the looks of it, I will be using Chaos Dwarves quite a bit. At least until the new Dwarf book comes out in a year or two.

KronusDaSneaky
24-11-2011, 23:38
If your want a brief synopsis of the CD list I did so on http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324840.

If your curious about a unit post about it and I would be happy to comment. In any case I would advice you check out http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com , the dedicated CD Fan Site

Khornies & milk
25-11-2011, 00:05
Thanks for your insight on the CD KronusDaSneaky, much appreciated.
I have actually ordered some Models, namely the Infernal Guard (probably in units of 30, and taking 1 with GW's and the other with Fireglaives) and an Iron Daemon, plus the Lord on Cinderbreath.

I want to keep the list Dwarfs only, so no Hobbo units at all. Future plans are Centaurs or K'daai (not both), the Deathquake and Magma Cannon, and a Destroyer if they make a model for it. If not then I'll settle for a Siege Giant. Also I'll need a Daemonsmith and I'm thinking about Castellans to add Stubborn to the Infernals.

Sound like a good plan to you...others comments also welcome of course.

Does this sound viable to you? I know that I'm taking the elite route but if I wanted Hobbo's I'd simply play

The Low King
25-11-2011, 15:18
You just arnt playing your dwarfs right if you get that feeling

KronusDaSneaky
26-11-2011, 00:27
Will post a response in due course khornies with everything you need to know to run a viable list. There is nothing at all wrong with going with an all CD force but theres merit in knowing what to expect from it so you know its the right thing for you

KronusDaSneaky
26-11-2011, 10:25
By going all CD you have limited to no affect on your Lords or Specials choices, a notable impact on your core and heroes selection and a limited impact on your rare.

Since you have only 2 core choices the biggest loss is limiting yourself to one. Hobgoblins arguably don't do awfully much but serve well as a shooty horde unit when taking both bows and shields. With the banner of slavery it's possible to make your hobgoblin units unbreakable allowing for you to form a strong central core capable of holding the centre at a reasonable price. This can still be achieve via CD though the expense involved is notably greater.

Infernals should be used in units of between 25-30. This seems a somewhat proscribed amount but its where they work best. Any less and they aren't resilient enough, lacking ranks etc. Any more and they start to become point sinks as while good at soaking up damage they are less point efficient then other choices in inflicting it and the more points you dump in the less you will have available for more potent units. The exception to this is rule is smallish 10 men of so squads of fireglaives which could be used to sit at the back guard the war machines.

They have 4 different weapon choices. A full discussion of the various options can be found here:

http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=9834

However to summarize the general views on the matter they generally considered viable only with stock (board + sword) and great weapons, the former being the preferred. As previously mentioned in the other thread they have very expensive weapon choices and generally anything but stock starts costing a lot. Since they are primarily used as anvils most folks tend to keep expentiture on them to a minimal level and just take HW and shield using the Razor banner as a means of boosting their killing power. This said STR 6 is very nice and ASL is not really a problem for I2 units so GW remain a solid option.
Fireglaives aren't terrible but with the last minute reprising they just aren't very point efficient. With only a 18" range and BS 3 they don't hit that much and are probably 2 points a model too much. Blunderbuss are the worst choices, if only because they need at least 20 models (25 preferably) to work effectively which leads to the unit being at least 60 slaves more then the sword + board kind. Generally its better to go with the latter and used the saved points on a fair more effective warmachine.
I would recommend a sword and board unit (30ish) and either a fireglaive/GW (25ish) unit (if you so fancy) but generally not both, not because they are necessarily bad, just pricey. You really don't want to be spending points on your core with CD and taking too many ends up a giant point sink.
For Lord/Heroes I would recommend at a minimum a Castallan BSB with Mask of the Forge, Iron Curse Icon, Shield or GW to go in your main unit. Good choice is S+B or GW. With stubborn, Ld 9 and rerolls your centre is going nowhere. If you intend to take a DQ Mortar you need to take a daemon smith to baby sit it and prevent misfires (has a 50% chance of blowing up if it happens), a level 2 if possible with lore of fire. Lore Metal is nice too but since he will be at the back lore of fire is more useful due to the added range. He works well with a charmed shield and a dispel scroll. As for lords not everyone takes a prophet due to cost. At 2K or more I would definitely consider one but not below 2k. Generally best on foot with Talisman of Protection, Enchanted Shield and whatever else you want. Taking the SC on cinder breath or a mounted lord generally also works but is a lot of points in one unit that is not cannon proof. Depending on your local meta this could be very painful. Lore wise I would go Lore of Hashut as it synergizes well with the army or possibly Lore of Death for devastating character removal, an aspect notably lacking in the list. Personally I would go foot Lord and put your taurus on a 150 by 100mm base and use it as a destroyer if you want a more effective list.

Specials are where its all at for CD. Lots of solid choices here.

Initial thoughts concerning the Iron Daemon where not that encouraging with most people think it okay but a little point heavy, sort of a mini steam tank so to speak. However recent play testing and re-consideration has made it popular choices. I think yours will certainly find a place in your list. A ID is basically somewhere between a Steam Tank and a Doomwheel in nature. On the one hand it has 7W and T7 (with the ability to go to 8W and T8 if you hell bound) it with a 3+ save, has thunderstomp/impact hits and is unbreakable meaning its great and holding and fighting infantry formations. On the other hand its the list premier monster killer with it steam cannonade happily killing off most big things ridden or not with 2 rounds of fire. It is however vulnerable to cavalry and monsters in cc as it won't get TS leaving it with just a handful of S3 attacks. It is even possible to tie it up with 5 goblin wolf riders for several rounds. Fortunately it can stand and shoot and if you protect its flanks it should generally be okay.

My suggestion is that you place it to one side of your castellan BSB unit in the centre with the other CD unit on the other side of the Castellan like so:

ID ------- Castallan BSB with GW Unit ----- Other CD Unit

Both Deathshrieker and Magma Cannon are solid choices. I would usually include at least one of each if not multiples of the former in big games. Magma Cannons can be very OP so it's best not to use multiples of them outside competitive environments as it will not engender positive responses. One is managable, 2-3 is pure cheese.

Generally Centaurs and preferred to standard K'Daai though both can find a place in the list. Both are good hitty units but the latter is somewhat fasters and tougher sporting a good AS, T5 and 3Ws a piece. You should as a minimum give them GW and include a command if you have 6 or so. The banner that gives +1 mv is great choice with them too for the extra distance. Do not buy the old models unless you really like them as new ones are due soon and given their units type change bigger bases and models are expected. For the moment I would proxy until then.

On the rare's front the Destroyer is the bomb which is reason to consider proxying it with you Taurus potentially. The hellcannon is also a great flank holding unit. Hellcannons are generally preferred to DW Mortars as they as seen as more flexible and suffer less if they misfire. They are considered better for the points then the slightly over priced DQ. They can't however benefit from a Daemon smiths rerolls as they aren't war machines but then you don't need to splash out on one. I prefer the hellcannon personally as I can leave it to guard one of my flanks better anchoring my battle line. If you love the DQ mortar go for it, but its certainly not mandatory.

I hope this has given you some ideas. I do not think you will suffer overly from having no greenskins. The only lingering concern I have is your propensity towards some of the more expensive units/combos, since you could suffer more from point inefficiency then going all CD. If you run all CD you shouldn't deck them ou which appears to be a clear risk with your selection. Large units of fireglaives, Mounted Lords, DQ Mortars etc all have there place but they are generally not the best options available to you and cost a lot. Running one or two of these units in your lists probably won't harm it but running quite a lot will. Running a small number of drops is not necessarily bad but if they are all okayish when your opponents are all Chosen and unkillable units of regen graveguard this is a very serious problem. Just bare this in mind when drawing up a list.

lisaundead
26-11-2011, 20:14
Well, at the risk of being a threadromancer, I just got Tamurkhan, and from the looks of it, I will be using Chaos Dwarves quite a bit. At least until the new Dwarf book comes out in a year or two.

At the risk of being a threadomancerthreadomancer, I just got a hint that Santa may be bringing me a copy of Tamukhan!!!!!!!!!

so expect mucho CD action in the new year ;)

Will be looking at Infernal Guard, Centaurs, Hellcannons and K'Daai destryers-a-plenty!!!!!!

:skull:

Khornies & milk
27-11-2011, 00:39
Thanks for that review KDS. very informative and enlightening. Some Q's -

Full Command in the Infernals, or just the Castallans - I'm initially thinking 1 in each unit with 1 being the BSB obviously. I should mention I've dropped the Fireglaives and am instead thinking about either 2 x 30 IG w/ GW & Shield, or 1 of those and 1 x 30 w/ HW & Shield - FC & Castallan in each.

The Hellcannon may be the better choice but I used to have them in my Chaos Warriors list so want a DQ, so the Iron Daemon is a must have anyway, as is the Daemonsmith (for k'daai as well).

You didn't mention Ironsworn...reasons for that?

I'm with you about Drazhoath been expensive, but was going to use him as a standard Sorceror in small games, and only as the real deal in 4K+ (which my group play a lot, usually over a weekend).

Your thoughts on Magic Items have helped me a lot, as I haven't even considered them at all to this point.

Thanks for your insight.

KronusDaSneaky
27-11-2011, 09:57
No need for a Castallan per unit. One BSB one should be sufficient given that they give stubborn to their unit and give a reroll generally. My suggestion is one unit with GW, one with S+B. Castallan in horde where his stubborn nature benefits the horde and the more vulnerable (to fire etc) GW Infernals. Full commands in both units should be taken. Run Razor standard on S+B Infernals to make them more killy.

Equip him: Mask of the Forge (Gives +1 AS, 4+ Ward, 2+ Ward vs Flaming, Fear), either a shield or a GW (depending on preferance), Ironcurse Icon (best 5 pts you will ever spend).

Run a foot Sorcerer prophet in the S+B unit if you are taking one as it will be tougher to kill and avoids putting too much eggs in one basket. Sorceror Lord should have Talisman of Protection, Enchanted Shield and whatever else you want him to have. Many people like grounding rods and healing potions as they suffer worse from miscasts then other sorcerers. I am not certain its needed as a you only suffer a additional wound on failed toughness test and they have toughness 5.

Ironsworn aren't bad but are once more a touch overpriced. My main issue with them lies in the fact that they are okayish and not really much better then the core yet you need to eat into your highly competitive specials to use them. Between artillery, Iron Daemons, Bull Centaurs and K'Daai Fireborn you generally have better ways to spend the points then on a slightly alternate variation of your core forces.

Khornies & milk
27-11-2011, 19:50
Heh, I must be going blind as I can't for the life of me find the Mask of the Forge or Ironcurse Icon - what book are they in?

I will probably go with 1 build of each IG like you suggest, partly because it will add variation to the modelling look of the army - I'm not all about winning so these things matter as well.

Again, thanks for all the help so far - haven't received my FW Order yet so they must be making some of the sets, and I'm not making a second IG order until I get the first one.

The Low King
27-11-2011, 21:42
In keeping with dwarf traditions i am now going to ignore the existance of this thred.

KronusDaSneaky
27-11-2011, 21:56
Heh, I must be going blind as I can't for the life of me find the Mask of the Forge or Ironcurse Icon - what book are they in?

I will probably go with 1 build of each IG like you suggest, partly because it will add variation to the modelling look of the army - I'm not all about winning so these things matter as well.

Again, thanks for all the help so far - haven't received my FW Order yet so they must be making some of the sets, and I'm not making a second IG order until I get the first one.

Mask of Forge is another name I use for Mask of the Furnace which can be found in the magic items section in Tamurkhan.

Ironcurse Icon is a enchanted item from the common list of magic items in the main rulebook.


In keeping with dwarf traditions i am now going to ignore the existance of this thred.

With the sole exception of taking a moment to mark our names in the book of grudges I would hope

The Low King
27-11-2011, 22:07
*pointedly ignores*




With the sole exception of taking a moment to mark our names in the book of grudges I would hope

(chaos dwarfs dont exist therefore cant go in the book)

KronusDaSneaky
27-11-2011, 22:40
*pointedly ignores*



(chaos dwarfs dont exist therefore cant go in the book)

And that's the way we want it. After all you cant make plans to resist a force that doesn't exist. It will make it all the easier when the time comes to enslave all Dwarf kind for abandoning our ancestors :p

grumbaki
28-11-2011, 02:01
And that's the way we want it. After all you cant make plans to resist a force that doesn't exist. It will make it all the easier when the time comes to enslave all Dwarf kind for abandoning our ancestors :p

Well, "don't exist" in a "Sven go grab your axe and kill them before the umgi see them" kind of way.

wyvirn
28-11-2011, 17:48
Yes, I suppose I have become and Non dwarf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonperson), forever exiled from hearth and hold until a slayers list become a viable and fun army again :p

lisaundead
28-11-2011, 19:49
Well, all I can say is that my vanilla dwarves will be falling to their stunty knees in worship of Hashut in the New Year :skull:

Oh yeah, bring on the K'daai Destroyer!!!!

KronusDaSneaky
28-11-2011, 21:44
Well, all I can say is that my vanilla dwarves will be falling to their stunty knees in worship of Hashut in the New Year :skull:

Oh yeah, bring on the K'daai Destroyer!!!!

Welcome Fellow Supplicant of Hashut. It is a just a shame more stunties do not see the true glory that is Hashut and cast aside their mewling and pitiful ancestor gods.

On a second note Destroyers are kick ****. On saturday mine killed an unwounded Abomb without taking any wounds. It bitched slapped it all over the shop.

The Low King
29-11-2011, 07:22
oh looks, its the reject of the chaos gods.

lisaundead
29-11-2011, 10:27
Welcome Fellow Supplicant of Hashut. It is a just a shame more stunties do not see the true glory that is Hashut and cast aside their mewling and pitiful ancestor gods.

On a second note Destroyers are kick ****. On saturday mine killed an unwounded Abomb without taking any wounds. It bitched slapped it all over the shop.

Wonderful wonderful wonderful........what did you use to represent the Destroyer, if I may be so bold? ;)

KronusDaSneaky
29-11-2011, 17:39
Wonderful wonderful wonderful........what did you use to represent the Destroyer, if I may be so bold? ;)

I have the unmounted version of Bale Taurus from FW on a 100x150 base by the name of buttercup who serves in this noble role.

lisaundead
29-11-2011, 22:07
I have the unmounted version of Bale Taurus from FW on a 100x150 base by the name of buttercup who serves in this noble role.

Coooool....I was in my LGS this evening and decided Im going to use the Balrog as a Destroyer...just gotta!!!
Also was given the idea (thanks James) of using WE Treekin as K'daai!!!!!!
Also Beastmen Centigor as Bull centaurs...cant wait to get my hands on the book at Christmas :D

Khornies & milk
30-11-2011, 03:47
Wonderful wonderful wonderful........what did you use to represent the Destroyer, if I may be so bold? ;)

I;m still looking for a model to represent the Destroyer, but there's a few that come to mind -

Wardaemon from Ultraforge Miniatures
Incarnate Elemental from FW

One guy I know is thinking about using the Bloodthirster Greater Daemon of Khorne from FW for his...be freaking awesome seeing that done.