PDA

View Full Version : SW vs. GK



Chapters Unwritten
10-11-2011, 14:40
So as a Space Wolf player I hear a lot of gripes. Grey Hunters are the best troop choice in the game, the Rune Priest is so broken, Thunderwolves are way too good, etc. etc. I've personally found these criticisms to be by and large baseless, but nowadays it bothers me quite a bit more. Because, you see, I still see these complaints all the time, but the landscape of the game is quite different and I'm a bit bothered by it. Because one thing seems very clear to me as the true unstoppable juggernaut of the game right now...

The Grey Knights codex.

Now, I'm not usually one to complain. I run a club and our attitude there is bring whatever you like; we really don't care about lists or codexes, and we really don't care if an army is underpowered or overpowered. Our club exists because we are made up of people who are tired of that crap and just want to play. But I have to wonder why I don't see more discussion of this book as unbalanced or broken, or shifting the game horribly.

It is readily apparent from the local tourney and club scene that this army is prolific: it is easy to collect, stupidly easy to paint if you are a minimalist, and well...it seems stupidly easy to use, too.

I am trying to figure out if anyone despises this army as much as I do. I think it is much more terrible than anything else in the game; and by terrible I mean, game-changingly too good. IG came along and the meta changed to heavy anti tank being critical, but it's still plausible to deal with them; how the hell do you deal with Grey Knights?

I recently tangled with a Draigo/Paladin combo unit. The person controlling them was great and we had a great doubles game. But I threw thirty Grey Hunters' full shooting and assault into that unit, along with a Wolf Lord and a Wolf Priest giving the Lord and 10x Hunters a re-roll. I barely scratched them. Just a handful of psycannons can mangle any light vehicles in your army. And the psyfleman dreadnought? That thing is insane. The Dreadnknight is also the best monstrous creature in the game by far right now, as well as one of the cheapest. Strength 6 Heavy Bolters and Strength 7 assault cannons across the whole army, too. Really, why was that even necessary? About as necessary as having the ability to make random units scoring. I appreciate that they have their own flavor but that flavor seems to revolve around being by far better than everything else in the game at every turn.

I realize that with 6th coming next year the changes to the turn structure will balance this out, by why on earth put out this army now when it is going to mangle the meta game instead of waiting, if that's the case? It still would've sold like nobody's business.

I don't know. I don't usually ever feel this way, I'm typically all for any changes to the game and all. But these guys, it seems like they can really be disheartening to fight against. I have one of the best armies in the game, too; I can only imagine how this must feel for some player using a less powerful army.

I just feel every time I see it that this was an army made for the worst kind of folks in the game -- WAAC players with no interest in background or painting or anything, just superior numbers. I dunno, I just don't get how anyone can complain about anything ELSE in this game when Grey Knights are so much more obviously off the charts. I was wondering if anyone else feels the same way. I don't know. The army just leaves a bad taste in my mouth after facing it sometimes, you know? It's not that I can't beat it, either; it's just more like the army seems designed to take that very one thing that is sacred in gaming, the mutual unspoken goal of two people having fun, and completely replaces that with this competitive ugly version instead.

Oakwolf
10-11-2011, 14:51
Well, basically, you pretty much felt what most people feel when facing SW or IG for that matter. Some lists are just better than others, in a competitive sense. GW doesn't publish rules for balance.

Grey knights are the top dogs atm. Since the codex(es) have been written for 6th ed., some rules logically don't follow the current metagame. Less than a year to wait and see :)

Chapters Unwritten
10-11-2011, 14:52
I just don't understand why people feel that way when facing the Space Wolves, as opposed to the GK. The two aren't even anywhere near on the same level in my eyes (at least from an opponent's perspective).

Thanatos_elNyx
10-11-2011, 15:04
Both books are "overpowered", the GK just more so.
Mount Everest and a Redwood both look huge to an Ant.

Bunnahabhain
10-11-2011, 15:07
To me:
Space wolves have two 'umm...' moments , where something just feels wrong to face:
- the power and utility of rune priests, both offensive and defensive
- Grey hunters at their price with counter attack and short ranged fire power

Guard have one
- How many? I've killed 3 squads and vehicles this turn, and you don't care...

Grey knights have loads;
The force weapons all round
Purifiers- that ability is just not balanced
Psybolts- badly undercosted on all platforms
Dreadknights-
The making stuff scoring buff
For a start...

Infidel
10-11-2011, 15:15
SW: Long fangs, comes standard with all you SW trimmings and with the ability to splitfire as you see fit. For some reason better than basic devastator with cheaper upgrades is not enough, but they also need to be able to shoot at different things.

GK: Grenades. Mother^$%&ing grenades. Rad grenade and Psychotroke makes assault utterly retarded.

Fortitude. I couldn't care less about how powerful their guns are so long as I can stop it from shooting. No, being in cover thanks to shrouding is not enough, they also happen to have a psychic power that allows them to ignore shaken/stun.

Chapters Unwritten
10-11-2011, 15:17
Bunnahabhain, you've put it very simply but you also elegantly illustrate my point:

Your Space Wolves "umm" moments pertain to only two units; the guard and GK ones apply to pretty much the entire army, and the GK ones are all significantly powerful buffs on their own.

The guard ones make fluff sense so I can live with that. They're really off my hate radar, so to speak; while I found the army annoying to face, it walked the line of being fightable and I never felt hopeless fighting it. The GK, however...I feel like I could write a page-long list of stuff that makes me go, "How did they expect us to fight that?" I shouldn't feel like a THSS Squad of Termies is necessary to fight most units in an army.

Now granted I do have options, but I'm looking at it from a whole game perspective. They have high strength, high initiative, high volume of fire, high utility vehicles, high psychc offense and defense, high survivability, and high volume of special weapons available. Where's the balance supposed to be?

EDIT: Just for the record, Long Fangs can split fire because those are the only heavy weapons in the army, since there are none for the troops like in other MEQ armies.

Thanatos_elNyx
10-11-2011, 15:26
There was a thread on this forum before making light of the fact that armies play nothing like their fluff.

SW are described as a close combat army, with troops that are just baying to get to grips with the enemy. With a particular hatred of psychic powers.

How is this represented on the table?
3 squads of long fangs blowing the carp out of everything and rune priests being the best psykers in the game (until GK came along).

Vaktathi
10-11-2011, 15:43
I just don't understand why people feel that way when facing the Space Wolves, as opposed to the GK. The two aren't even anywhere near on the same level in my eyes (at least from an opponent's perspective).
SW's in many ways can be easily and directly equated to other SM books. In that respect, there are several units which form the core of most armies that are clearly superior to their counterparts. Grey Hunters are just as shooty (minus the heavy weapon which many C:SM players would ditch in a heartbeat for a second special or BP/CCW) and far superior in CC while being cheaper with more (and cheaper) options and while sergeants must come from an Elites unit they're signficantly cheaper with cheaper upgrades and that Elites slot is often already being taken anyway or wouldn't otherwise be filled with a different unit so little is lost. Rune Priests likewise have better powers with better wargear and more special rules than Librarians for the same cost. Long Fangs are probably the most cost effective heavy weapons unit in the game with 6 dudes sporting 5 split fire missiles for less than the cost of 5 dudes sporting 4 missile launchers that can't split fire (unless 10 strong) in other SM armies. Then there's the army-wide counterattack on top of the BP/CCW combo, which basically acts like a giant crutch and cushion against tactical errors and removes much of the decision making necessity other marine units face.


With Grey Knights, they have completely different wargear, and against many foes much of their wargear is empty points. Ork Boyz, guardsmen, etc for instance don't care about I6, powerweapons, or force weapons. GK's also often (unless utilizing Henchmen units) tend to have noticeably fewer models.

Now, this isn't to say there hasn't been a good deal of griping about GK's, but GK's are a radically different army from other marine armies. SW's basically just end up being "C:SM+1 with a discount".

Chapters Unwritten
10-11-2011, 15:44
There was a thread on this forum before making light of the fact that armies play nothing like their fluff.

SW are described as a close combat army, with troops that are just baying to get to grips with the enemy. With a particular hatred of psychic powers.

How is this represented on the table?
3 squads of long fangs blowing the carp out of everything and rune priests being the best psykers in the game (until GK came along).

...and the entire rest of the army doing exactly what the book talks about.

Vaktathi
10-11-2011, 15:47
...and the entire rest of the army doing exactly what the book talks about.Between the runepriests doing their 'totally not power-of-fenris-and-not-bad-evil-psyker' powers thing and the overloaded heavy weapons units, there's usually a bunch of min/max'd GH squads with meltas/combi-meltas in razorbacks. Most SW armies I see sport more long range AT guns than the majority of IG armies.


I'm not joking when I say that the overwhelming majority of SW armies I've seen since 2009 would be more appropriate with hazard stripes and boltgun metal color schemes than Fenris grey.

Erik_Morkai
10-11-2011, 15:50
Long Fangs do not have ablative wounds though. First hit severely hinders their performance. They do not have terminator armor or anything. They are just regular marines. Just shoot them, they die all the same.

The Ven PSIfleman Dread...is basicly a squad of relentless Twin-Linked long fangs with a 5+ rerollable invul save (math-wise) for roughly the same cost.

I see some lists and honestly if someone fields a GK army with 6 PSIfleman Dread. I would not even bother to unpack army because no list I have can deal with that AND if I tailor my list against that particular scenario I will suffer in the end against everyone else.

Chapters Unwritten
10-11-2011, 15:52
The 4 Rune Priest/15 Long Fang army does not really exist, at least not consistently. There's plenty of Razorspam and I've seen 2x Long Fang armies plenty, but ones like the ones described on Warseer, I'm convinced, are myths.

Regardless of playing against the fluff, however, that point does little to detract from the fact that a Grey Knights army literally has almost every available unit in the book vastly stronger than any of their counterparts. Or more that the army is virtually impossible to successfully strategize against. It's just frustrating to play. At least against an SW army, even one like the fabled Superwolves of Warseer, you have some options (for instance my Long Fangs almost NEVER get attacked directly. I would think any marine player worth his salt would drop pod something nasty in to deal with them but people rarely if ever do that to me).

Inquisitor_Tolheim
10-11-2011, 15:56
Chapters, Space Wolves ARE an OP army. Full stop. They're top tier and do many things as well or better then even the GK. JOTWW, Long Fangs, Grey Hunters... they have several advantages that keep them on the top of the pile despite other releases.

Now, GK are also overpowered. There's no arguing against that. But your protestations that your army is totally fair while the GK are totally cheese is an extreme case of the pot calling the kettle black. GK players could similarly argue that they pay for all the upgrades they get, and their basic troop choices are more expensive then any other army, so they're completely balanced. In both cases (GK/SW) the players are wrong: their army sits at a higher basic power level then the others and players using them have an advantage.

Vaktathi
10-11-2011, 15:57
Long Fangs do not have ablative wounds though. First hit severely hinders their performance. They do not have terminator armor or anything. They are just regular marines. Just shoot them, they die all the same. Killing 18 marines in cover on the other side of the board isn't exactly easy for many armies, and the alpha strike capability offered by the Long Fangs helps ensure that the opponent isn't going to be in a great position to implement that plan. By the time the vast majority of opponents can start taking down the Long Fangs, they've already done their job, especially if there's half a dozen razorbacks on the board with grey hunters that don't get shot at as a result.



The Ven PSIfleman Dread...is basicly a squad of relentless Twin-Linked long fangs with a 5+ rerollable invul save (math-wise) for roughly the same cost.A Venerable psyrifle dread is significantly more expensive, a normal psyrifle dread is the same cost, but lacks AP3, the ability to target multiple units, and is easier to take down (lets put it this way, a Long Fang unit is going to take down a psyrifleman before the dread can take down the Long Fangs)

I'm not saying they're not silly units, 5pts to ugprade 2 TLAC's to S8 is ridiculous, but lets not forget the power of the Long Fangs here.



I see some lists and honestly if someone fields a GK army with 6 PSIfleman Dread. I would not even bother to unpack army because no list I have can deal with that AND if I tailor my list against that particular scenario I will suffer in the end against everyone else.Yup, they're ridiculous, and yes, entirely abuseable and in such numbers definitely do not fit the nature of the army.

Chapters Unwritten
10-11-2011, 15:59
Sorry, but that the two armies are equivalent is ridiculous. Having an extra missile launcher and two good psychic powers doesn't even come close to equalling the advantages the Grey Knights level.


A Venerable psyrifle dread is significantly more expensive, a normal psyrifle dread is the same cost, but lacks AP3, the ability to target multiple units, and is easier to take down (lets put it this way, a Long Fang unit is going to take down a psyrifleman before the dread can take down the Long Fangs)This very thing happens to me pretty much every time I play GK. One of the few units that attacks my Fangs directly. Not that it's a normal occurence, mind you, but it does happen to me constantly.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
10-11-2011, 16:08
Sorry, but that the two armies are equivalent is ridiculous. Having an extra missile launcher and two good psychic powers doesn't even come close to equalling the advantages the Grey Knights level.

This very thing happens to me pretty much every time I play GK.

Space Wolves have Grey Hunters, Rune Priests, Split Fire Longfangs, and potential lone wolf shenanigans, none of which come at an extreme premium. Grey Knights have numerous impressive toys, all of which cost a significant amount. Hit grey knights with some pie plates and they evaporate faster then other marine armies. Use some Psychic Defenses and you counter many of their meanest tricks. If they're running 6 psyflemen dreadnoughts then their troops are going to be even more woefully low in numbers then usual. Draigowing can be demolished by focused AP2 and proper target management.

I'll say it again: BOTH armies are overpowered. BOTH armies require their opponents to have the right tools and jump through the right hoops to get the win. Grey Knights AND Space Wolves have several tricks up their sleeves that make other armies groan in frustration. You don't see it because the wolves are your main army and thus they are completely, absolutely, unarguably balanced.

Vaktathi
10-11-2011, 16:13
Sorry, but that the two armies are equivalent is ridiculous. Having an extra missile launcher and two good psychic powers doesn't even come close to equalling the advantages the Grey Knights level. the significant cost discount and pricing differences relative to GK's is also definitely something to think about here.



This very thing happens to me pretty much every time I play GK. One of the few units that attacks my Fangs directly.GK's are very good at facing other marines, they're an anti-marine marine army in many ways. Against many other armies, their advantages are significantly less powerful, where as an All Comers army the SW's have it better.

my IG for instance care not one wit about I6, powerweapons, cleansing flame, etc. Hammerhand and Might of Titan are of some use against tanks but normal marines all get those S6 krak grenades and usually have a hidden powerfist which does the job just as well anyway. My infantry die to bolters very quickly anyway, making them S5 doesn't functionally change too much. However, there's usually significantly fewer GK's than there would be marines in other armies, so while their advantages are minimized since my troops are so weeny, I'm able to better concentrate my fire and my big guns make more of an impact.


If I'm playing my Eldar or Tau, the situation is much the same, except my Eldar care about the I6 aspect a little but if anything in there gets stuck in CC it's dead anyway.

Of all my armies, only my CSM's really care about the GK's advantages because they're exactly the type of army that GK's wargear bonuses really matter against and they have to play somewhat similarly due to also being a marine army.

Bunnahabhain
10-11-2011, 16:13
'Just use psychic defenses' isn't an argument.

Too many forces, both new and old, weak and strong, simply don't have any available at all.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
10-11-2011, 16:17
'Just use psychic defenses' isn't an argument.

Too many forces, both new and old, weak and strong, simply don't have any available at all.

I'm not arguing that GK are balanced against every codex. In fact I said several times that they are overpowered. I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy of a SW player defending his own top tier army while complaining about a different army.

Lowmans
10-11-2011, 16:25
Meh, my Nids don't stand much chance against either, mostly due to Str8 weaponry in abundance.
OP psychic powers.
Large shooty mid-range.
Good hth.

I don't feel so much like the hens in the coop against SW though, ironically.

I just can't scratch the paint against purifier spam, not even remotely.

Hicks
10-11-2011, 16:46
To me both armies are too good. I was totally disgusted with the GK codex in fact. I had a huge metal GK army for years, but when I read the rules and fluff of the new dex I immediatly sold it. To me it was just that bad.

At least the SW don't have completely retarded fluff, so I still like them. However, I don't play a tournament list with mine. My army is all terminators and I use DA deathwing rules for them (I know, heresy). My friends don't complain, as they much prefer to face that instead of the usual SW cheeze. If anybody complains that I'm pushing count as too far with this, I can always use a Loganwing list too.

Chapters Unwritten
10-11-2011, 19:24
Well, I'll still never understand the logic here, especially since the crux of the debate seems to be a handful of units versus an entire army.

I realize that it may seem like I'm just wearing rose-tinted glasses for my own army, but it really isn't motivated by that. This all came about because I'm partnered up for an upcoming doubles and almost everyone I have heard about in it is using a Grey Knights partner for power reasons (there are no other Space Wolves, as I already mentioned). If this army is so good, why aren't there more of them? GK hit another level of annoyance when you consider they are not only powerful, but easy to collect and paint. It's almost like they designed the army going "what would every WAAC player who wants to play in tournaments want?"

2 Psychic Powers + 1-3 extra Missile Launchers =/= Psychic Powers in every squad, 24" str5 guns as standard, +1 strength to virtually all of the army's mid to long range shooting, rending plasma guns with huge range, and every model being armed with a force weapon (some of which are I6).

I'm going to have to chalk this one up to propaganda; in this area I am currently literally the only Space Wolves player at any of the three most major gaming groups. Some others show up for tournaments but ultimately they are either actual players like me, or less experienced players trying to use these crazy lists that Warseer and other sites have turned into the big bad wolf army (no pun intended). I don't know where the idea came from but this thread has made it more than obvious that it's here to stay, when people cross compare books to rash on Grey Hunters and Long Fangs but don't stop to do the same for a GK with a Force weapon, Storm bolter, psychic power, PLUS all the normal Marine abilities for 5 points more.

Either way I suppose I have my answer; people seem fine with GKs, it's the totally broken Wolves codex that is the problem. -_-

Mit Gas
10-11-2011, 19:38
Well, I'll still never understand the logic here, especially since the crux of the debate seems to be a handful of units versus an entire army.

I realize that it may seem like I'm just wearing rose-tinted glasses for my own army, but it really isn't motivated by that. This all came about because I'm partnered up for an upcoming doubles and almost everyone I have heard about in it is using a Grey Knights partner for power reasons (there are no other Space Wolves, as I already mentioned). If this army is so good, why aren't there more of them? GK hit another level of annoyance when you consider they are not only powerful, but easy to collect and paint. It's almost like they designed the army going "what would every WAAC player who wants to play in tournaments want?"

2 Psychic Powers + 1-3 extra Missile Launchers =/= Psychic Powers in every squad, 24" str5 guns as standard, +1 strength to virtually all of the army's mid to long range shooting, rending plasma guns with huge range, and every model being armed with a force weapon (some of which are I6).

I'm going to have to chalk this one up to propaganda; in this area I am currently literally the only Space Wolves player at any of the three most major gaming groups. Some others show up for tournaments but ultimately they are either actual players like me, or less experienced players trying to use these crazy lists that Warseer and other sites have turned into the big bad wolf army (no pun intended). I don't know where the idea came from but this thread has made it more than obvious that it's here to stay, when people cross compare books to rash on Grey Hunters and Long Fangs but don't stop to do the same for a GK with a Force weapon, Storm bolter, psychic power, PLUS all the normal Marine abilities for 5 points more.

Either way I suppose I have my answer; people seem fine with GKs, it's the totally broken Wolves codex that is the problem. -_-

Nah, the problem is you whining about GKs being OP while you yourself use an OP army. Doesn't get taken well. Both are overpowered and while it might be true that GKs are even better, it's not like you play Nids or Tau. Or Chaos. Or Eldar. So stop complaining. Spees Puppies got their own special codex and they're the coolest cuz they don't care about rulez and drink teh beer. That's more than every other chapter but Blood angels and GKs got. :p

Death Company
10-11-2011, 19:49
Grey Knights have numerous impressive toys, all of which cost a significant amount.

I'm assuming you've never opened a Grey Knight codex then. Take a look at purifiers some time; their cost and the cost of their upgrades. Then tell me again that they're expensive. Try and keep a straight face when you do it.



Either way I suppose I have my answer; people seem fine with GKs, it's the totally broken Wolves codex that is the problem. -_-

It's not just you. That much was made clear in another Grey Knight thread a few days ago.

The Grey Knights are clearly the top-tier codex in regards to being busted, though admittedly, the Guard are close on their heels. The majority of the people who are venting angst at you for playing Space Wolves just have codex envy.

Grey Knights are an army of under-costed HQ choices, that are masquerading as "troops" and the like.

Thing like purifiers, death-cult, psyflemen dreads and specialty grenades makes for a very aggravating play experience and can even force you to play your list a way you don't want. For instance, I love to assault - hence Blood Angels, but that literally isn't an option against purifiers. I have to play an assault army as a gunline, trying to null their teeth before they maul me. I think that's the most frustrating part of the codex for most people. Against other armies, even if the unit I'm assaulting is "killy" itself, I have a chance. Losing half my death-company, who are more expensive mind you, before even being able to strike is just goofy - and unfortunately - business as usual against purifier spam.


Nah, the problem is you whining about GKs being OP while you yourself use an OP army.

Trolling is a reportable offense on Warseer. The tone of your post is dangerously close to the definition.

Vaktathi
10-11-2011, 19:53
Well, I'll still never understand the logic here, especially since the crux of the debate seems to be a handful of units versus an entire army.

I realize that it may seem like I'm just wearing rose-tinted glasses for my own army, but it really isn't motivated by that. This all came about because I'm partnered up for an upcoming doubles and almost everyone I have heard about in it is using a Grey Knights partner for power reasons (there are no other Space Wolves, as I already mentioned). If this army is so good, why aren't there more of them? There are a ton of them, especially at tournaments. For the last couple years they have routinely been either the first or second most represented army at most large events.


GK hit another level of annoyance when you consider they are not only powerful, but easy to collect and paint. It's almost like they designed the army going "what would every WAAC player who wants to play in tournaments want?" This applies universally to marines in general. Keep in mind, that at the last Adepticon, the most represented codex was Space Wolves, but nearly 90% of them we're "counts-as" from other SM armies hopping for power reason.

But yes, this applies to GK's even more than normal marines because they require so few models and thus a smaller investment in time and money. However nothing like the gap between marines in general and non-marine armies. Look at what a "cheese" mech IG army costs to build next to a "cheese" SW army or "cheese" GK army and it'll likely be an 150-300% the cost.



2 Psychic Powers + 1-3 extra Missile Launchers =/= Psychic Powers in every squad, 24" str5 guns as standard, +1 strength to virtually all of the army's mid to long range shooting, rending plasma guns with huge range, and every model being armed with a force weapon (some of which are I6). Except their basic dude costs 33% more than a GH does (47% more with S5 guns in a 10man squad), has only 1 attack (no BP/CCW combo), doesn't have the Counterattack crutch or Acute Senses, and very few units have access to melta weaponry. The SW's have a major cost advantage and can very noticeably outnumber GK's with troops where their advantages come into play against a greater number of enemies with greater consistency.

If you charge a basic GK, he only gets 1 attack, on a charge he gets 2. A Grey Hunter will usually have 3 if they get charged, at worst 2, and will have 3 if charging. Yes the GK has a powerweapon, when facing other marines this makes them very powerful, but against many foes the greater number of attacks will mean more, and if the GH's are fighting other marines that aren't GK's it still gives them a huge advantage.

The GK's, man for man, are better than a GH, but if you compare then on a cost efficiency basis, point for point, the GH's are just as effective if not moreso, especially if you start adding bits like psybolts to the GK unit.






I'm going to have to chalk this one up to propaganda; in this area I am currently literally the only Space Wolves player at any of the three most major gaming groups. Some others show up for tournaments but ultimately they are either actual players like me, or less experienced players trying to use these crazy lists that Warseer and other sites have turned into the big bad wolf army (no pun intended). I don't know where the idea came from but this thread has made it more than obvious that it's here to stay, when people cross compare books to rash on Grey Hunters and Long Fangs but don't stop to do the same for a GK with a Force weapon, Storm bolter, psychic power, PLUS all the normal Marine abilities for 5 points more. The storm bolter vs normal bolter+pistol isn't really a major difference. The gh has more attacks than the GK, while the GK has better wargear and costs 33% more. People aren't discounting these abilities at all, just pointing out that it's not like the Grey Hunter is exactly well costed either.



Either way I suppose I have my answer; people seem fine with GKs, it's the totally broken Wolves codex that is the problem. -_-No, people do have a lot of issues with GK's, what we're saying is that SW's have just as many issues as well.

Fingers
10-11-2011, 20:00
I play both armies (as well as Chaos Marines, Eldar and Necrons) and honestly feel GK (and IG and BA) are easily as powerful, if not more so, than SW. Sure they have some things that are good (GH having ccw & bp, Long Fangs being fairly cheap and splitting fire) but so do other armies.

Perhaps its more the Tourney scene where all these OP issues arise, but the people I play with use a good number of units in their codex when they play, not just spamming the flavor of the month combo that is a result of no imagination on the general's part.

Vaktathi
10-11-2011, 20:04
The majority of the people who are venting angst at you for playing Space Wolves just have codex envy. And venting against GK's couldn't possibly be codex envy?:p



Grey Knights are an army of under-costed HQ choices, that are masquerading as "troops" and the like. SW aren't either?



Thing like purifiers, death-cult, psyflemen dreads and specialty grenades makes for a very aggravating play experience and can even force you to play your list a way you don't want. For instance, I love to assault - hence Blood Angels, but that literally isn't an option against purifiers. Actually it *is* an option, just not usually a great one. There's nothing in the purifier rules that states you cannot assault them.


I have to play an assault army as a gunline, trying to null their teeth before they maul me. Blood Angels have never been a pure assault army. They've always been a mostly-Codex chapter with a greater preference for the use of jump packs and a genetic flaw that causes them to become really angry. They've never been a pure assault army (at least until the current book) and have always relied on softening up many enemies before assaulting them.

You can't auto-beat everything in combat just because an army has "blood" in its name and some dudes go berzerk. Some things you will have to shoot down before engaging them. It's called game balance and multi-dimensional gameplay, and it's why BA's have tons of shooting options. They've got more access to heavy battle tanks than any army outside of the Imperial Guard and the most cost effective HS infantry heavy weapons unit of any marine army aside from Long Fangs.


I think that's the most frustrating part of the codex for most people. Against other armies, even if the unit I'm assaulting is "killy" itself, I have a chance. Losing half my death-company, who are more expensive mind you, before even being able to strike is just goofy - and unfortunately - business as usual against purifier spam. Have you tried that against a unit of Lash-whip/Bonesword Tyranid Warriors of roughly equal cost? You'd probably get exactly the same result as with the Purifiers. There's a lot of units where that can happen.



Trolling is a reportable offense on Warseer. The tone of your post is dangerously close to the definition.
So is telling people that venting against a codex is just codex envy

Shamana
10-11-2011, 20:09
You know, I'm more interested in how SWs compare to BA. As I see it, Blood Angels are kind of like "Space Marines v. 1.2", and they were also perceived as near-OP at the start. How do they compare against SWs?

Konovalev
10-11-2011, 20:21
Losing half my death-company, who are more expensive mind you, before even being able to strike is just goofy - and unfortunately - business as usual against purifier spam.

How you figure that?
5 purifiers with halberds (so they strike before you) cost 130pts
5 death company cost 100pts.

Death Company
10-11-2011, 20:28
And venting against GK's couldn't possibly be codex envy?:p

Space Wolves and Blood Angels are both solid codices. Why would we have new codex envy? :eyebrows:


SW aren't either?

Oh, so Grey Hunters are all librarians with force-weapons now? Curious, that. I must have been glancing through a different book than you, Vak.


Actually it *is* an option, just not usually a great one. There's nothing in the purifier rules that states you cannot assault them.

Charging purifiers is a death sentence for any unit that I can possibly field. My point stands, regardless of your sarcastic attempt to diminish it.


Blood Angels have never been a pure assault army. They've always been a mostly-Codex chapter with a greater preference for the use of jump packs and a genetic flaw that causes them to become really angry. They've never been a pure assault army (at least until the current book) and have always relied on softening up many enemies before assaulting them.

I really didn't ask for your opinion on what the army I've played for years; my army, is about. I field an all assault jump-pack army, because that's the way I enjoy playing them.

Thanks for your input, though.


You can't auto-beat everything in combat just because an army has "blood" in its name and some dudes go berzerk.

If you're going to be flippant, I'll simply put you on ignore. Lets try and act like adults, alright?


Some things you will have to shoot down before engaging them.

So, my entirely jump-pack based assault list, should be able to pop a storm-raven in a single turn, before the purifiers hop out for a murderous assault.. right.


It's called game balance and multi-dimensional gameplay, and it's why BA's have tons of shooting options. They've got more access to heavy battle tanks than any army outside of the Imperial Guard and the most cost effective HS infantry heavy weapons unit of any marine army aside from Long Fangs.

Yes, Vak, we know all about our capability to field a lot of armor. You have a habit of complaining about it in every thread you make.

That doesn't however mean that I desire to take vehicles, or devastators. I like playing an all jump army and that isn't going to change. Leaving me only with the option of tooling my list to beat Grey Knights, something that unlike you, apparently, I'm not willing to do.


Have you tried that against a unit of Lash-whip/Bonesword Tyranid Warriors of roughly equal cost? You'd probably get exactly the same result as with the Purifiers. There's a lot of units where that can happen.

Tryanids are your example, really? I've never lost a game to Tyranids - and I don't see that changing soon. There isn't a single unit in that codex I would hesitate to take the fight to.

As for your "point" about warriors, those warriors can't hide in an especially resilient assault transport, allowing me some time to whittle them down a bit before the assault, unlike Knights.


So is telling people that venting against a codex is just codex envy

Take a serious look at his post and tell me that he wasn't purposely antagonizing the original poster.

Then again, you're just as hyperbolic with your posting, so I can imagine you probably cannot see the difference.


How you figure that?
5 purifiers with halberds (so they strike before you) cost 130pts
5 death company cost 100pts.

Because you would field death company in a five-man squad, without any upgrades.. Some seriously solid suggestions in this thread.

Mánagarmr
10-11-2011, 20:33
The hypocrisy in this thread is nauseating.

Vaktathi says that Space Wolves aren't allowed to be frustrated by Grey Knights, as they're "top tier". Alright, solid argument, I guess? Then he himself complains about Space Wolves, as a Guard player.

Poor joke, that is.

Death Company
10-11-2011, 20:44
You know, I'm more interested in how SWs compare to BA. As I see it, Blood Angels are kind of like "Space Marines v. 1.2", and they were also perceived as near-OP at the start. How do they compare against SWs?

Honestly, it's pretty closely balanced between Wolves and Angels.

I've had a lot of close - but more importantly fun - games against the Space Wolves. :D

Konovalev
10-11-2011, 20:50
Because you would field death company in a five-man squad, without any upgrades.. Some seriously solid suggestions in this thread.

Well I wouldnt field DC at all because you can lead them around by the nose thanks to rage. But you've got 30pts for upgrades as far as matching a 5man purifier squad in price goes. Thats 2 power weapons, on marines that have 3attacks each base. That's 6 power weapon attacks from 2 marines to an entire purifier squads 10, not bad I'd say. Those DC attacks are also str5 and I5 on the charge because of FC. and lets also not forget DC are WS5 and purifiers are ws4 so you would be hitting on 3's to their 4's, and wounding on 3's like them if they cast hammerhand instead of cleansing flame.

Vaktathi
10-11-2011, 20:51
Space Wolves and Blood Angels are both, solid codices. Why would we have new codex envy? :eyebrows: Because it's obviously a sore point




Oh, so Grey Hunters are all librarians with force-weapons now? Curios, that. I must have been glancing through a different book than you, Vak. Grey Hunters have extra gear, extra special rules, extra options, cheaper options, and cost discounts over basic space marines and aren't just as much of an issue?

And no, all GK's are not librarians, lets get over that right now. They get a strength enhancing psychic power and a force weapon (which is basically a power weapon against 95% of enemies), they don't have psychic defense and multiple attacks or powers.




Charging purifiers is a death sentence for any unit that I can possibly field. My point stands, regardless of your sarcastic attempt to diminish it. No, you just missed mine, which is that you can't expect to be able to throw your units into anything and never expect them not to get pasted by some enemies.






I really didn't ask for your opinion on what the army I've played for years; my army, is about. I field an all assault jump-pack army, because that's the way I enjoy playing them.

Thanks for your input, though. Your welcome ;)




If you're going to be flippant, I'll simply put you on ignore. Lets try and act like adults, alright? When you seem to be under the impression that your death company should be able to plow into anything and wreck it without the tables sometimes being turned, what sort of responses do you expect?




So, my entirely jump-pack based assault list, should be able to pop a storm-raven in a single turn, before the purifiers hop out for a murderous assault.. right. Then that's your fault for not bringing the proper tools, which are available in multiple units, to counter units which your opponent may bring. It's one thing if your army doesn't have those tools, but BA's very certainly do. Predators, rifleman dreads, land speeders, devastators, razorbacks, tac squads with heavy weapons, etc. Stormravens are AV12, you have the tools to deal with them. If you *CHOOSE* not to bring them, that's not the GK's fault.




Yes, Vak, we know all about our capability to field a lot of armor. You have a habit of complaining about it in every thread you make. Not the point I was making, the point I was making was that BA's have a ton of shooting capability and shouldn't be relying purely on assault units to defeat their enemies and yes, there are things that will beat the stuffing out of marines in assaults that you will need to shoot down.



That doesn't however mean that I desire to take vehicles, or devastators. I like playing an all jump army and that isn't going to change. Leaving me only with the option of tooling my list to beat Grey Knights, something that unlike you, apparently, I'm not willing to do. I don't tool my armies generally, in fact I typically play the same list week after week. I can't recall the last time I tooled a list to defeat a specific opponent. I pick a theme and some units I like and optimize it as best I can from there. Hence why with my IW's you won't see plague marines or lash princes but you will see lots of CSM's in rhinos with lots of combi-weapon termi's and a good number of oblits because it fits the theme and they're effective choices within that theme. However, complaining about an opposing army being broken because you choose not to field half the codex doesn't mean the opposing army is broken.

If I wanted to field a conscript infantry human wave horde IG army I'd have no place complaining about armies with tons of CC able to sweep through my dudes or lots of skimmers that constantly outmaneuvered me because I didn't bring the tools my army came with to counter those foes.




Tryanids are your example, really? I've never lost a game to Tyranids - and I don't see that changing soon. There isn't a single unit in that codex I would hesitate to take the fight to. That wasn't the question. I couldn't care less about your record against Tyranids, it's irrelevant to the conversation.

Would you just dive a 200pt unit of Death Company into a 200pt unit of Tyranid Warriors with lashwhips and boneswords without any softening up and expect them not to get wiped? Probably not.



As for your "point" about warriors, those warriors can't hide in an especially resilient assault transport, allowing me some time to whittle them down a bit before the assault, unlike Knights. Again, irrelevant, you need to soften them up with shooting to whittle them down just like you do the GK Purifiers, which was your original complaint. Your choosing not to bring any of the plethora of long range AT options is different.




Take a serious look at his post and tell me that he wasn't purposely antagonizing the original poster.

Then again, you're just as hyperbolic with your posting, so I can imagine you probably cannot see the difference.No, I can just see when it's going both ways.


EDIT: All this said, yes I'll agree some aspects of the GK codex are broken and overdone, don't get me wrong, but if you're purposefully excluding the vast majority of units from your armies and not taking any long range AT, don't complain when an opponent beats you because you don't take any long range AT, and if you're playing an army that gets just as many complaints and can't reconcile that yes, there are some very silly things in your own book that make it just as bad in many people's eyes, then there's an issue.

marv335
10-11-2011, 20:54
This is just awesome...
A SW player complaining about how another army is OP and broken.

Oh, the irony...
:D

Voss
10-11-2011, 20:59
I really didn't ask for your opinion on what the army I've played for years; my army, is about. I field an all assault jump-pack army, because that's the way I enjoy playing them.

Thanks for your input, though.



But if you're going to ignore the options available to you completely, then perhaps it isn't so much a problem with a potential power disparity between the two books. If you choose to use a hammer instead of saw to chop down a tree, you can't really blame the tool kit.

Assault marines have never been the answer to everything, nor should they be.

Death Company
10-11-2011, 21:18
Because it's obviously a sore point

For a person who is so vocal about the apparent injustices being cast upon his codices, you're one to talk. I guess I'm curious where you get off telling others that it's a "sore point", when you're so easily upset about the "new toys" of recent Marine codices.

I'd genuinely appreciate it, if you could explain how you're not being comically hypocritical right now.


Grey Hunters have extra gear, extra special rules, extra options, cheaper options, and cost discounts over basic space marines?

Which makes them the equivalent of an under-costed HQ? Oh, right, I forgot. You love hyperbolic arguments that fall apart upon analysis.


And no, all GK's are not librarians, lets get over that right now. They get a strength enhancing psychic power and a force weapon (which is basically a power weapon against 95% of enemies), they don't have psychic defense and multiple attacks or powers.

A troop choice that can hit with power-fist strength at initiative, and cause instant death is "no big deal". Yet you complain, constantly at that, about a slight more efficient tactical marine, in the way of grey hunters. That's if they're not in the mood to take stupidly cost-effective purifiers as troops - and ruin your day.

I guess Space Wolves are just a "sore point" for you. :rolleyes:


No, you just missed mine, which is that you can't expect to be able to throw your units into anything and never expect them not to get pasted by some enemies.

I don't expect them to win every fight. I never claimed that I did. I said that the problem with purifiers, is that I'm not even given a chance to win. That's the problem.

They are the assault unit in the game right now, all while being cost-effective and able to rock decent shooting.


You're welcome ;)

Fixed that for you. :)


When you seem to be under the impression that your death company should be able to plow into anything and wreck it without the tables sometimes being turned, what sort of responses do you expect?

Please stop putting words in my mouth. It's poor form for a civil discussion and implies that you're unable to make sense of the most basic of points.

I never once claimed that I want my death company to "win all the things!". I said that it leaves a pretty poor taste in my mouth to pay more for a dedicated assault unit that will lose half it's number before fighting - if they get the charge. It's even worse if they charge you.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


Then that's your fault for not bringing the proper tools, which are available in multiple units, to counter units which your opponent may bring. It's one thing if your army doesn't have those tools, but BA's very certainly do. Predators, rifleman dreads, land speeders, devastators, razorbacks, tac squads with heavy weapons, etc. Stormravens are AV12, you have the tools to deal with them. If you *CHOOSE* not to bring them, that's not the GK's fault.

There isn't an army in the game that my list isn't able to compete against. I have the tools to deal with any "all-comers" list out there. Yet I have to fight an uphill battle against Grey Knights, because they're just better.

Even the games that I win against the Knights, which is 40-50% of them, are just completely un-enjoyable. A feeling I don't have after facing any other "top tier" competitor.


Not the point I was making, the point I was making was that BA's have a ton of shooting capability and shouldn't be relying purely on assault units to defeat their enemies and yes, there are things that will beat the stuffing out of marines in assaults that you will need to shoot down.

Did you completely ignore where I said that I do whittle prey down with shooting? I just don't run designated shooty units like devastators, because they clash with my play style.

If I'm not fielding vindicators and devastators, I'm at a significant disadvantage against Grey Knights. Again, they're the only army that actively requires me to tool a list to play.


I don't tool my armies generally, in fact I typically play the same list week after week. I can't recall the last time I tooled a list to defeat a specific opponent. I pick a theme and some units I like and optimize it as best I can from there. Hence why with my IW's you won't see plague marines or lash princes but you will see lots of CSM's in rhinos with lots of combi-weapon termi's and a good number of oblits because it fits the theme and they're effective choices within that theme. However, complaining about an army being broken because you choose not to field half the codex doesn't mean the opposing army is broken.

So now you're arguing that Grey Knights are not overpowered, after claiming they were? Which is it, Vak? You're flip-flopping.


If I wanted to field a conscript infantry human wave horde IG army I'd have no place complaining about armies with tons of CC able to sweep through my dudes or lots of skimmers that constantly outmaneuvered me because I didn't bring the tools my army came with to counter those foes.

So now you're informing me about what I'm allowed to be aggravated about? :eyebrows:

Again, since you're a bit slow on the up-take regarding this point: I compete just fine against every army I face, except Grey Knights.

They have every tool, for every situation, even if they're a dedicated unit. That's the definition of codex imbalance.

Challenge Accepted
10-11-2011, 21:36
I play tau, so the gk tear me a new one everytime we play. Am I allowed to be upset by that? I had to ask, since several people in this thread are apparently the warseer judges on what passes for acceptable anger.

Death Company
10-11-2011, 21:40
The hypocrisy in this thread is nauseating.

Vaktathi says that Space Wolves aren't allowed to be frustrated by Grey Knights, as they're "top tier". Alright, solid argument, I guess? Then he himself complains about Space Wolves, as a Guard player.

Poor joke, that is.

I'm a little confused about what point he's trying to make as well. It seems to me that he came after me for what he perceived as an apparent slight against him, in regards to the "codex envy" quote.


I play tau, so the gk tear me a new one everytime we play. Am I allowed to be upset by that? I had to ask, since several people in this thread are apparently the warseer judges on what passes for acceptable anger.

I laughed, I'll admit it.

Caitsidhe
10-11-2011, 21:43
They are both excellent examples of poor design by Games Workshop. They are not remotely balanced with anything else which isn't surprising because Games Workshop doesn't care about balance. :) Games Workshop is its own worst enemy because it produces a product that is a combination hobby and game but puts all the quality in on the hobby side. The game is at least fifty percent of the interest (probably a lot more) and they treat it as a red-headed stepchild.

In this case you shouldn't hate the playa... hate the game.

Vaktathi
10-11-2011, 22:01
For a person who is so vocal about the apparent injustices being cast upon his codices, you're one to talk. I guess I'm curious where you get off telling others that it's a "sore point", when you're so easily upset about the "new toys" of recent Marine codices. I'm upset about everything, can't you tell? :eek:



I'd genuinely appreciate it, if you could explain how you're not being comically hypocritical right now. Because I'm not sitting here playing a marine army widely seen as a contender for one of the most powerful armies in the game complaining about another marine army in the same running and claiming that there's no way they equate?



Which makes them the equivalent of an under-costed HQ? Oh, right, I forgot. You love hyperbolic arguments that fall apart upon analysis. Did you miss where I quoted where you were talking about basic troops? Nothing about a basic GK makes it anywhere near like an undercosted HQ.




A troop choice that can hit with power-fist strength at initiative, Um, which GK units are hitting with S8 at I4? Unless you're counting S6 as pfist strength.


and cause instant death is "no big deal". No, I'm saying it's situational and doesn't come into play against most units. Yes it's powerful when it gets used, but many, possibly even most games will go by without it coming into play.


Yet you complain, constantly at that, about a slight more efficient tactical marine, in the way of grey hunters. That's if they're not in the mood to take stupidly cost-effective purifiers as troops - and ruin your day. Yup, Purifiers are really good, silly good. But again, also have some issues with numbers, they're more than half again the cost of a basic marine and not any more survivable.



I guess Space Wolves are just a "sore point" for you. :rolleyes: Just calling it as I see it. I've made plenty of complaints about GK's as well. But trying to say GK's are so broken and not acknowledging any of the issues with SW's is fairly silly.




I don't expect them to win every fight. I never claimed that I did. I said that the problem with purifiers, is that I'm not even given a chance to win. That's the problem.Then don't throw them into the purifiers. And properly kitted, they should have a chance.



They are the assault unit in the game right now, all while being cost-effective and able to rock decent shooting.Yup, I won't deny that they're silly, but saying that Death Company have no chance against them is also silly. Against many units, particularly those that aren't rocking power weapons and/or have any psychic defense, the Death Company often may be more capable.





I never once claimed that I want my death company to "win all the things!". I said that it leaves a pretty poor taste in my mouth to pay more for a dedicated assault unit that will lose half it's number before fighting - if they get the charge. It's even worse if they charge you.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. They have different advantages and disadvantages. Death Company are more resilient, Purifeiers are killier and their killyness happens to negate the Death Companies resiliency.

Not all assault units are going to stand up to other assault units well. We can look at a similar example with Eldar, Scorpions will carve through Orks where Banshees will have issues with orks. Banshees will put hurt on Marines where Scorpions will have a harder time with marines. Scorpions will generally be defeated by Banshees but that doesn't mean they're an awful assault unit.




There isn't an army in the game that my list isn't able to compete against. I have the tools to deal with any "all-comers" list out there. Yet I have to fight an uphill battle against Grey Knights, because they're just better. And that fact that you're complaining about not being able to take down the stormraven before it gets to you due to the fact that you have no long range AT has no bearing on that....?:eyebrows:



Even the games that I win against the Knights, which is 40-50% of them, are just completely un-enjoyable. A feeling I don't have after facing any other "top tier" competitor. If you're winning that many, that doesn't sound like there's a balance issue. I totally understand the feeling of certain games not being enjoyable, many armies will feel like that to many, but if you're winning half or nearly half of your games, I'm not seeing where the balance issue you are having is. It sounds like you're doing fairly well against them.




Did you completely ignore where I said that I do whittle prey down with shooting? I just don't run designated shooty units like devastators, because they clash with my play style.

If I'm not fielding vindicators and devastators, I'm at a significant disadvantage against Grey Knights. Again, they're the only army that actively requires me to tool a list to play. Have you played against super tankspam IG, razorfangspam SW or razorpredatorspam BA's often? I don't see where you'd have the same issues against GK's that you wouldn't also have against these armies.




So now you're arguing that Grey Knights are not overpowered, after claiming they were? Which is it, Vak? You're flip-flopping. No I'm not, my point is that you can't declare an army overpowered if you're not covering all your bases. If you're entering games without any long range AT, there are several armies against which you'll likely have issues. There's a reason BA's have vindicators, predators, devastators, land speeders, etc, because not everything can be defeated by jump troops or without unaccpetable casualties.

I'm not denying that GK's don't have very abuseable stuff, however SW's aren't in any position to make complaints like those being asserted in the Original Post, and BA's aren't exactly much worse off.



So now you're informing me about what I'm allowed to be aggravated about? :eyebrows:
I'm saying if you're playing an army list that doesn't even attempt to cover all the bases, then you can't judge a book broken on that.



Again, since you're a bit slow on the up-take regarding this point: I compete just fine against every army I face, except Grey Knights. You seem to do well enough to have an even or almost even win rate against them, not seeing the issue. I also have a feeling you aren't facing a lot of other competitive army lists if GK's are your only issue. If you're having issues stopping GK Stormravens before they can disgorge troops, you'd likely have issues against many heavily mechanized opponents, purifiers or no.



They have every tool, for every situation, even if they're a dedicated unit. That's the definition of codex imbalance.I'm not saying purifiers aren't silly, but purifer spam will fail hard against certain enemies, they don't have every tool for every opponent. If faced with something like a mech IG opponent, even with double psycannons, they generally just won't be able to generate enough firepower to offset their low numbers and the many wasted points in CC abilities that mean nothing against IG.




The hypocrisy in this thread is nauseating.

Vaktathi says that Space Wolves aren't allowed to be frustrated by Grey Knights, as they're "top tier". Alright, solid argument, I guess? Then he himself complains about Space Wolves, as a Guard player.

Poor joke, that is.

We're not talking about IG here are we? If I made a whole new thread about how GK's were so overpowered and how I couldn't possibly see how anything in the IG codex was broken or that such builds were merely internet myths, that'd be different. However, yes, there are things in the IG codex that are broken, such lists do exist, and yes I can totally face that, and no, it has nothing to do with this thread. I play armies that at one point or another have widely been seen as broken between CSM's, Eldar, Tau, IG, and yes I even have playable amounts of SM's/SoB's/GK's.

Konovalev
10-11-2011, 22:47
A troop choice that can hit with power-fist strength at initiative, and cause instant death is "no big deal".

Except they can't do both at once unless you attach an independant characer which would be one of your two HQ choices in most cases.

Death Company
10-11-2011, 22:52
I'm upset about everything, can't you tell? :eek:

I did notice that, yeah.


Because I'm not sitting here playing a marine army widely seen as a contender for one of the most powerful armies in the game complaining about another marine army in the same running and claiming that there's no way they equate?

You're right. You're just playing Imperial Guard, who were the top spot for competitive codices, until they were recently dethroned by the Grey Knights. All while telling a Marine player he's not allowed to be frustrated with a clearly stronger book than his own, because his is "top tier" as well.. yet, then complaining about his book yourself..

So as long as you're not a Marine, you're allowed to cry? Again, I have to ask, how are you not being hypocritical?


Did you miss where I quoted where you were talking about basic troops? Nothing about a basic GK makes it anywhere near like an undercosted HQ.

No, you didn't.

I said "Grey Knights play like an army of under-costed HQ's, masquerading as troops", to which you said, "and Wolves aren't?"

So either you're trying to back-peddle from what you recognize is a terrible comparison, or you misread what I wrote.


Um, which GK units are hitting with S8 at I4? Unless you're counting S6 as pfist strength.

I am counting S6, yes.


No, I'm saying it's situational and doesn't come into play against most units. Yes it's powerful when it gets used, but many, possibly even most games will go by without it coming into play.

So because some armies field troops that are such low quality, that the elite and especially brutal nature of Grey Knights assault capabilities is null against them, means that their blatant imbalance is irrelevant? Really?

That is a horribly flawed argument. You're struggling here, Vaktathi.


Yup, Purifiers are really good, silly good. But again, also have some issues with numbers, they're more than half again the cost of a basic marine and not any more survivable.

Who cares about slightly reduced numbers, when your model is designed to excel in any situation they're placed in?

Their cost is one point more than two of the cult-troop Chaos choices, and significantly less than a "almost" equally equipped death company marine. They are cost effective and then some, for what they do.


Just calling it as I see it. I've made plenty of complaints about GK's as well. But trying to say GK's are so broken and not acknowledging any of the issues with SW's is fairly silly.

I don't acknowledge what you claim are problems, because I don't see Space Wolves as being near the power level of Grey Knights.

They have some significant strengths, yeah, of course they do. They're a recently done codex.


Yup, I won't deny that they're silly, but saying that Death Company have no chance against them is also silly. Against many units, particularly those that aren't rocking power weapons and/or have any psychic defense, the Death Company often may be more capable.

They don't have a chance, unless I spend half my armies point allowance to kit the death company out to stand a chance against one of his troops choices. A unit who suffer from a weakness of rage at that.

No offense intended, but these "ideas" would not fly in an actual game.


They have different advantages and disadvantages. Death Company are more resilient, Purifeiers are killier and their killyness happens to negate the Death Companies resiliency.

At the price of being more resilient, I'm afflicted by rage and significantly more expensive to gear up.

While the purifiers count as scoring, get better shooting, superior assault power and still have the survivability of a Marine, which is nothing to scoff at. All with no negative effects, like rage, to make them uncontrollable.


Not all assault units are going to stand up to other assault units well. We can look at a similar example with Eldar, Scorpions will carve through Orks where Banshees will have issues with orks. Banshees will put hurt on Marines where Scorpions will have a harder time with marines. Scorpions will generally be defeated by Banshees but that doesn't mean they're an awful assault unit.

I don't possess a unit that can out-perform them in assault, is the thing to remember.

So I can tool a gun-line to destroy them, meanwhile killing the Knight players enjoyment and mine, simultaneously.


And that fact that you're complaining about not being able to take down the stormraven before it gets to you due to the fact that you have no long range AT has no bearing on that....?:eyebrows:

My meltas and blood lances are decent anti-tank against other armies. I'm aware I've limited my ability to handle a ton of armor. I don't expect to not pay a price for my play-style.

It's frustrating though that Grey Knights don't have to make that choice in the first place. They can do everything, better than you, without needing to focus on said role.


If you're winning that many, that doesn't sound like there's a balance issue. I totally understand the feeling of certain games not being enjoyable, many armies will feel like that to many, but if you're winning half or nearly half of your games, I'm not seeing where the balance issue is.

Not many of these Knight players are especially skilled in the first place. I don't take pride in besting players that, ego aside, I know I'm a better than.

Having people that I tabled consistently with other armies suddenly become a force to be reckoned with, says something to me. Am I to believe their skill level just shot-up over night?


Have you played against super tankspam IG, razorfangspam SW or razorpredatorspam BA's often? I don't see where you'd have the same issues against GK's that you wouldn't also have against these armies.

Blood lances work wonders against people who run a "parking lot" style gun-line. My anti-tank suffers because the enemy isn't waiting for me to bring the fight to him; he's leaping across the board to engage me, making my scatters truly painful.


No I'm not, my point is that you can't declare an army overpowered if you're not covering all your bases. If you're entering games without any long range AT, there are several armies against which you'll likely have issues. There's a reason BA's have vindicators, predators, devastators, land speeders, etc, because not everything can be defeated by jump troops or without unaccpetable casualties.

No, the point you're attempting to salvage from your need to respond to my "codex envy" comment, is that I'm "not allowed" to be frustrated, because I won't tool my list.

We both know what this is.

Your point has been "Grey Knights are busted, yeah. I'll admit that. But you can't claim that, because you won't tool a gun-line to fight them."


I'm saying if you're playing an army list that doesn't even attempt to cover all the bases, then you can't judge a book broken on that.

That's your opinion, which I don't share.


You seem to do well enough to have an even or almost even win rate against them, not seeing the issue. I also have a feeling you aren't facing a lot of other competitive army lists if GK's are your only issue. If you're having issues stopping GK Stormravens before they can disgorge troops, you'd likely have issues against many heavily mechanized opponents, purifiers or no.

You suggest some of the worst advice, tactically, that I've ever read. I mean, it's not even good theory-crafting, then say that I must not be facing "competitive players".

I have to doubt your experience as well, Vaktathi. Seriously doubt it.


I'm not saying purifiers aren't silly, but purifer spam will fail hard against certain enemies, they don't have every tool for every opponent. If faced with something like a mech IG opponent, even with double psycannons, they generally just won't be able to generate enough firepower to offset their low numbers and the many wasted points in CC abilities that mean nothing against IG.

Purifier armies are effective enough to not need to invest all of their points into the hyper-killy purifiers. They're just icing on an army that has psyflemen dread support, and stormravens, casually destroying Guard.

Treadhead_1st
10-11-2011, 22:55
I apologise for butchering your post, but I am hoping that a second voice may help you see Vaktathi's point.



I never once claimed that I want my death company to "win all the things!". I said that it leaves a pretty poor taste in my mouth to pay more for a dedicated assault unit that will lose half it's number before fighting - if they get the charge. It's even worse if they charge you.


This seems to be your main point of contention. If you know that the Purifiers are going to absolutely murder your Death Company (or similar assault troops), then clearly you need to use something to weaken the enemy unit *before* you hit them with the Death Company.

Even if they are out-shone a little against Purifiers, for the reasons pointed out previously (the example of 5 Death Company versus 5 Purifiers was not a "recommendation" but pointing out the flaw in your statement that 'Death Company' cost more than Purifiers'), they are still great Close Combat units with some advantages over the Purifiers. They hit the enemy more easily and are harder to hit in return, and they hit slightly harder if they get the charge.


Did you completely ignore where I said that I do whittle prey down with shooting? I just don't run designated shooty units like devastators, because they clash with my play style.

If I'm not fielding vindicators and devastators, I'm at a significant disadvantage against Grey Knights. Again, they're the only army that actively requires me to tool a list to play.

This is the main point Vaktathi is picking up on.

This shows a flaw in either your logic (of your argument), or your army list. You say that you try to shoot the Grey Knights to weaken them, yet you do not take the units that can inflict the most damage on said units at range.

It is your choice not to take those units - you have a theme, which is perfectly respectable. However, you cannot use the fact that you have chosen to not take these units from your own Codex (for the sake of theme) as proof that the Grey Knights are overpowered (they may in fact be overpowered, but your argument as to why is lacking). The fact that you do not want to field them, and the fact that the units you have chosen suffer against a certain army build is one of the facts of life when it comes to gaming with a theme.

So the Jump Pack-equipped units of Blood Angels cannot handle every single unit/army composition in the game...somehow I am not surprised; there is a reason that the non-Jump Pack units are included in the Codex.

You cannot even claim that Grey Knights are the only army to force you to tailor against them - Devastators, Vindicators and such like are perfectly viable against a wide range of opponents, and fit well into an all-comers list. Thus including them into your army would not be tailoring against Grey Knights, but making an improvement to your list to enable it to handle a wider range of foes and tabletop circumstances. This leads me to a further point:



Again, since you're a bit slow on the up-take regarding this point: I compete just fine against every army I face, except Grey Knights.


Then clearly you do not have an all-comers army, as it cannot handle all-comers. Grey Knights are (effectively) new to Warhammer - you might have to change your list up to ensure that you can cover the various threats they bring to the table - and are quite a popular army, so your chances of seeing them arrayed against you are high.

Having to buy new models when a new threat is unleashed on us by the designers is part-and-parcel of being a wargamer.



There isn't an army in the game that my list isn't able to compete against. I have the tools to deal with any "all-comers" list out there. Yet I have to fight an uphill battle against Grey Knights, because they're just better.

Even the games that I win against the Knights, which is 40-50% of them, are just completely un-enjoyable. A feeling I don't have after facing any other "top tier" competitor.


I find it quite odd that you complain they are an "uphill struggle", and then have a ~50% win ratio. I also find it quite odd that you base one of your complaints around being unable to stop a Storm Raven from dropping off Purifiers, given the prevalence of AV12 units (such as Storm Ravens, Valkyries/Vendettas, Chimeras and Dreadnoughts) in competitive armies. Most of these units can strike very powerfully from long range, and retain mobility to make it harder for Jump Pack infantry to close with them.

I understand about games not being enjoyable - that is a fair point, and a valid complaint. But it is largely irrelevant to the topic - I used to find games against Necrons very boring and tedious, but it is very hard to find someone claiming that Necrons, in 4th/5th Edition, were overpowered.

Death Company
10-11-2011, 23:28
I apologise for butchering your post, but I am hoping that a second voice may help you see Vaktathi's point.

A forum-goer by the name of Treadhead supporting Vaktathi's point? The hell you say! ;)


This seems to be your main point of contention. If you know that the Purifiers are going to absolutely murder your Death Company (or similar assault troops), then clearly you need to use something to weaken the enemy unit *before* you hit them with the Death Company.

My death company, unfortunately, are a bit hard to control given rage and all. That said, I do weaken the purifiers with shooting. Most often from multiple units, while trying to avoid other aspects of their army. I pick my battles and all that. Many times, it isn't enough though. The points I need to invest to defeat his purifiers cripples my ability to win.

I have to dedicate too many points to take out a single unit. It's not only ineffective, but suicidal in many game-type scenarios.


Even if they are out-shone a little against Purifiers, for the reasons pointed out previously (the example of 5 Death Company versus 5 Purifiers was not a "recommendation" but pointing out the flaw in your statement that 'Death Company' cost more than Purifiers'), they are still great Close Combat units with some advantages over the Purifiers. They hit the enemy more easily and are harder to hit in return, and they hit slightly harder if they get the charge.

To equip them to the point where their killing power would be equal, they do indeed become more expensive, yes.

I know all too well that they're a nice unit. I'm named after them for a reason: I love the fluff behind them and feel that they're represented well on the table. It's just a shame that they're outclassed to badly by purifiers.


This is the main point Vaktathi is picking up on.

This shows a flaw in either your logic (of your argument), or your army list. You say that you try to shoot the Grey Knights to weaken them, yet you do not take the units that can inflict the most damage on said units at range.

With the list I run, to take a single squad of devastators, or a vindicator, would leave them alone on the board for a turn or two. Psyflemen would pick them apart casually. I would actively have to run an entirely different list - a mechanized gun-line - to compete.

While you might not understand it, as a Guard fan, I have no desire to play a shooting army. I take the limited shooting I require to handle the vast amount of transports I usually face and little else.


It is your choice not to take those units - you have a theme, which is perfectly respectable. However, you cannot use the fact that you have chosen to not take these units from your own Codex (for the sake of theme) as proof that the Grey Knights are overpowered (they may in fact be overpowered, but your argument as to why is lacking). The fact that you do not want to field them, and the fact that the units you have chosen suffer against a certain army build is one of the facts of life when it comes to gaming with a theme.

I'm aware of that, I am. I don't, however, feel that because I choose to play an assault themed army, that I'm not allowed to have input on another army.


So the Jump Pack-equipped units of Blood Angels cannot handle every single unit/army composition in the game...somehow I am not surprised; there is a reason that the non-Jump Pack units are included in the Codex.

As I don't want to run a gun-line, it just becomes "paper > rock". It's frustrating.

That's been my entire point all along.


You cannot even claim that Grey Knights are the only army to force you to tailor against them - Devastators, Vindicators and such like are perfectly viable against a wide range of opponents, and fit well into an all-comers list. Thus including them into your army would not be tailoring against Grey Knights, but making an improvement to your list to enable it to handle a wider range of foes and tabletop circumstances. This leads me to a further point:

See my above points as to why it wouldn't work in my list. It would be a point handicap I can't afford.


Then clearly you do not have an all-comers army, as it cannot handle all-comers. Grey Knights are (effectively) new to Warhammer - you might have to change your list up to ensure that you can cover the various threats they bring to the table - and are quite a popular army, so your chances of seeing them arrayed against you are high.

Admittedly, I suppose I don't anymore, no. I cannot handle Grey Knights as I can other armies. That's a fair point.

It just says something that I can fight Khorne daemons and have a chance to win, but not Grey Knights.


Having to buy new models when a new threat is unleashed on us by the designers is part-and-parcel of being a wargamer.

I already own the models required, but don't enjoy the style. Especially since in my shop, every Marine player, of any variant, is a razor-spam list.


I find it quite odd that you complain they are an "uphill struggle", and then have a ~50% win ratio. I also find it quite odd that you base one of your complaints around being unable to stop a Storm Raven from dropping off Purifiers, given the prevalence of AV12 units (such as Storm Ravens, Valkyries/Vendettas, Chimeras and Dreadnoughts) in competitive armies. Most of these units can strike very powerfully from long range, and retain mobility to make it harder for Jump Pack infantry to close with them.

Stormravens are resilient against meltas, unlike your prior examples. I rely entirely on meltas, my lances and fists. My fists are of limited use when hitting on sixes and the craft are resilient to my melta. Hence the problem.

It makes me too reliant on my blood lances, which sometimes never even go off.


I understand about games not being enjoyable - that is a fair point, and a valid complaint. But it is largely irrelevant to the topic - I used to find games against Necrons very boring and tedious, but it is very hard to find someone claiming that Necrons, in 4th/5th Edition, were overpowered.

The thread has various people saying "Grey Knights are overpowered", but when I add my experiences, I'm told my opinion isn't allowed. Foolishly, I attempted to share my opinion on a forum. Ok.

I'm done with this thread. You guys win.

Israfael
10-11-2011, 23:36
This thread is ridiculous.

Grey Knights take the crown for most powerful codex in the game and it's relatively widely accepted; but then there's three pages of people arguing that you're not allowed to actually say so, because you won't tool a list to combat them specifically? Is that what this community has become? Jesus Christ.

The sooner this hits the wastes, or is locked, the better.

Treadhead_1st
10-11-2011, 23:49
This thread is ridiculous.

Grey Knights take the crown for most powerful codex in the game and it's relatively widely accepted; but then there's three pages of people arguing that they're not, because a guy won't tool a list to combat them specifically? Is that what this community has become? Jesus Christ.

The sooner this hits the wastes, or is locked, the better.

Not at all - read the thread.

The OP states that people can't complain the Space Wolves are overpowered because the Grey Knights are more overpowered than Space Wolves. This is, to a great many posters, a logical fallacy. Just because the Grey Knights are better, it doesn't mean that Space Wolves are now pleasant to face - they still have the nastiness that earned the enmity in the first place.

The guy "not tooling his list to combat them specifically" is something I have addressed - the essence is that by choosing to not take certain units, he may be vulnerable to certain units/armies in the game. Including those units would not be tailoring his army *specifically* for Grey Knights, given that the units would work perfectly well against a variety of other armies, and would counter one of the recognised weaknesses in his army (against any foe, it just has the added side-effect of plugging a gap in his army against the Knights). I would expand on his most recent reply - I find it an interesting discussion, he has raised some good points but I would like to counter them - but he's asked to drop the subject so I won't push the matter.

I think the Grey Knights were hit waaaay out of the park, and are too powerful for their cost, particularly when you can combine a variety of tricks to make a truly nasty force. I wouldn't really debate that (though I might argue specific details). No-one has actually denied that the Grey Knights are powerful, or even too powerful, but rather are taking issue based on the reasons for some of the arguments presented. Quite a major difference.

Israfael
11-11-2011, 00:02
Not at all - read the thread.

I have read it and what I said was exactly what I took from it.

Death Company never claimed that Space Wolves weren't a powerful codex. In fact, I can quote where he said they were solid, competitive and top-tier. He goes on to say that he doesn't experience anything in their codex that he considers nearly as over the top as Grey Knights, however. This apparently is motivation for Vaktathi to launch into an overtly hostile and hyperbolic rant toward Death.

He's told his input doesn't mean f*&% all, because he doesn't play an optimal list. Well guess what, I'm sure a lot of people out there aren't playing an optimal list to fight the Knights, or aren't playing to the best of their ability with what they have, so by this logic, I guess their opinions are moot as well.

In fact, lets make it so only the top tournament winners can even post on Warseer. Sounds good to me.

Starting to see how ridiculous this is yet?

Craftworld
11-11-2011, 00:14
I have read it and what I said was exactly what I took from it.

Me as well. It looked like it turned into an elitist telling another gamer his opinion on codex balance is void because he doesn't play with a WAAC list.

Treadhead_1st
11-11-2011, 00:21
I have read it and what I said was exactly what I took from it.

Death Company never claimed that Space Wolves weren't a powerful codex.

Death Company didn't start the thread. The OP is complaining that the Space Wolves shouldn't be complained about any more.

Most of the contention is regarding his basis on why he feels the Grey Knights are overpowered - a basis which several people find shaky.



In fact, I can quote where he said they were solid, competitive and top-tier. He goes on to say that he doesn't experience anything in their codex that he considers nearly as over the top as Grey Knights, however. This apparently is motivation for Vaktathi to launch into an overtly hostile and hyperbolic rant toward Death.


Vaktathi may have been too confrontational, but the points he was addressing were fair game.



He's told his input doesn't mean f*&% all, because he doesn't play an optimal list. Well guess what, I'm sure a lot of people out there aren't playing an optimal list to fight the Knights, or aren't playing to the best of their ability with what they have, so by this logic, I guess their opinions are moot as well.


No, he wasn't - he was told his reasoning is a bit shaky. If someone fields an all-grot list, does that mean that Codex: Space Marines are overpowered as Tactical Marines can blow the Grots away, and they cannot dent Land Raiders?

The view that Grey Knights are too powerful is fine. The view that, having tried many different races/styles/tactics against them is fine. Claiming that a single list cannot beat them is less fine, as there are other factors that can be involved (such as the quality of the aforementioned list).



In fact, lets make it so only the top tournament winners can even post on Warseer. Sounds good to me.


and


Me as well. It looked like it turned into an elitist telling another gamer his opinion on codex balance is void because he doesn't play with a WAAC list.

What was that about hyperbole and hostile tones?

cool-kid-on-the-block
11-11-2011, 00:31
the op said that he thinks that GK are overpowered and his SW are not as good. i dont see a problem here. he is right. i find SW easier to face than GKs. and i think that most people will agree with me and him. you dont have to play something sucky to be able to have a moan.

Vaktathi
11-11-2011, 00:36
You're right. You're just playing Imperial Guard, who were the top spot for competitive codices, until they were recently dethroned by the Grey Knights. All while telling a Marine player he's not allowed to be frustrated with a clearly stronger book than his own, because his is "top tier" as well.. yet, then complaining about his book yourself.. I'm not trying to complain about GK's or SW's while saying that there's nothing in the IG codex not to be upset about or that such competitive builds as are being discussed are internet legend, unlike the OP who made such claims of SW's.





I am counting S6, yes. Not really what most would consider Pfist strength but whatever, if you count IG powerfists I guess you're right.




So because some armies field troops that are such low quality, that the elite and especially brutal nature of Grey Knights assault capabilities is null against them, means that their blatant imbalance is irrelevant? Really?

That is a horribly flawed argument. You're struggling here, Vaktathi. No, my point is that being able to inflict instant death isn't a huge deal as it doesn't come into play often because the overwhelming vast majority of models, even very scary and powerful assault units are 1 wound models anyway. Against something like an MC, they're probably inflicting enough wounds outright to be able to kill it, Force Weapons or no (much as something like TH/SS termi's wouldn't gain much by being given Force Thunder Hammers either), so again, doesn't come into play as much as one would think. Primarily it comes into play against a handful of units, stuff like Ork wound-abuse nobs, Paladins, and the like.




Who cares about slightly reduced numbers, when your model is designed to excel in any situation they're placed in? Really?

Reduced numbers is a rather big thing. If I only have to deal with 30 or 40 marines and 5-6 vehicles instead of 60 marines and 8 vehicles, even if the opposing units are killier, they're going to be much easier to destroy as long as you aren't engaging them on their terms. With such heavily reduced numbers as Purifier armies tend to be, a single solid battlecannon shot can effectively mean I've crushed an opponents flank, and since they aren't any harder to kill, it makes my weeny fire (multilasers, heavy bolters, scatterlasers, etc) significantly more effective because they don't have to kill as many dudes to destroy the same proportion of my opponents force.

Not gonna lie, I'll take purifier spam over BA jump pack horde, SW gunline, etc if I'm playing my Eldar, IG, or Tau. GK's are very good against other marine armies, their advantages are less useful against other armies. Generally, nothing in any of these armies is going to stand much of a chance against SM units of any type in CC, but if I can cut 33-50% off their numbers, their additional killyness doesn't mean much, they aren't getting much more for their cost, while I have a much easier time blowing them off the board as they aren't any more resilient. Even if the additional CC killyness did matter, unless I'm trying to defeat them primarily through CC, I'm still probably better off. It's only if I have to engage them on their own terms where it becomes an issue.


Marines being, well, marines, fighting essentially what are marines with weapons that ignore marines trademark stat (3+sv's), that makes GK's a daunting opponent because they have to fight them on similar terms. Grey Hunters being basically cheaper tac marines with great and cheaper options and more basic CC attacks makes their attributes applicable against a wider array of foes on a more consistent, if less intense, basis.


I had a somewhat relatable experience against the new Necrons. With my IG I really wrecked them because I didn't have to engage them on their terms, with my CSM's, having to engage much more on terms that the necrons prefer for my troops to be in their optimal killing zones, I got wrecked (although putzing a bunch of rerollable Ld rolls didn't help :p) I have no doubt I'd have probably done better with my Eldar than my CSM's because again I'm not engaging them on their terms to be successful.




Their cost is one point more than two of the cult-troop Chaos choices Many of which are seen as mediocre or poor units to begin with.


and significantly less than a "almost" equally equipped death company marine. They are cost effective and then some, for what they do.Against each other sure, and if you equip them with PW's yes, but you don't need to equip all the DC's with PW's to get the effect you're looking for. And yes, Purifiers are silly, I'm not arguing that, but DC aren't exactly awful units.

The Death Company marines are much more resilient against most enemy attacks and have a higher weapon skill, and if they charge they have higher strength and higher init than the Purifiers (aside from any Halberds), and, if equipped with BP/CCW, then they also have more attacks without having to pay out the nose for them. Sure, in a straight up fight between the two units, the DC are at a disadvantage, but in terms of being able to cross the board in one piece and surviving shooting attacks, making into combat in one piece, etc, the DC have advantages that the Purifiers don't.




I don't acknowledge what you claim are problems, because I don't see Space Wolves as being near the power level of Grey Knights. And that's why we're having this discussion.



They have some significant strengths, yeah, of course they do. They're a recently done codex. They're an army that can outfight and outshoot simultaneously many other books, several of 5E vintage (C:SM in particular which was released what, 11 months earlier?). What's more, they're popular power builds really just don't jive with their fluff at all. When the space berzerker viking army is putting more long range AT downrange than most IG armies, and still have lots of capable assault troops left, that's an issue. The alpha strike capability of the SW list due to the very cheap nature of their heavy weapons troops and min/max ability of their troops units to form very effective small units riding in IFV's with powerful weaponry (much moreso than many equivalent armies like C:SM and even C:BA) makes them able to field gunlines that are entirely capable of crippling GK armies in a single salvo. When you're looking across the board at 9 TL lascannons and 15 split-fire BS4 krak missiles in what was billed as a space viking hero combat army, something is wrong, and yes, such builds won't have any issues breaking GK armies. GK's have psyrifleman dreads yes, and they're rather derpy yes, but GK's have trouble packing in lots of *long* range AT, if their mobility is taken out early, their potent mid range firepower can be neutralized before it can effectively be brought to bear. With 24 BS4 (some TL'd) S8/9 weapons, it's very easy to make that a reality, and to pound them down another turn before finishing off the remnants up close. The only way GK's are bringing that kind of firepower to reply is if they're bringing lots of Henchmen units (to me, more abuseable than Purifiers), in which case, they aren't really running Purifier spam either.




They don't have a chance, unless I spend half my armies point allowance to kit the death company out to stand a chance against one of his troops choices. A unit who suffer from a weakness of rage at that.

No offense intended, but these "ideas" would not fly in an actual game. stick a couple power weapons in there, you don't need to kit the entire unit. In a squad of 10, take 3 PW's, that gives you 12 PW attacks on top of 28 non-PW attacks at S5 I5 on a charge. Unless that entire purifier unit is armed with halberds (and is more expensive than your DC at that point as well assuming 10 strong) you've got a good chance, in fact, if they aren't armed with halberds (in which case they'll cost roughly the same amount as that DC unit, again assuming 10 strong), on average that setup will wipe the purifiers before they can strike back.

So yeah, there's definitely a chance against them.




At the price of being more resilient, I'm afflicted by rage and significantly more expensive to gear up. But you don't need to gear each model, gearing just a couple gets you most of the way there, and rage is controllable.



While the purifiers count as scoring *only* if taken with what amounts to a sacrificial HQ.


get better shooting Yup.


superior assault power In some setups yes.


and still have the survivability of a Marine, which is nothing to scoff at. All with no negative effects, like rage, to make them uncontrollable. Yup. again, I'm not denying that Purifiers aren't silly, but trying to make it out as if your DC don't stand any chance against them is also quite silly.




I don't possess a unit that can out-perform them in assault, is the thing to remember. See above. Also, since you likely outnumber them (I'm assuming DC aren't making up the bulk of your army) you can hit them with significantly greater numbers, concentrating force easier and be better able to control the board.




So I can tool a gun-line to destroy them, meanwhile killing the Knight players enjoyment and mine, simultaneously. With a 50 or near 50 percent win ratio, I'm not seeing why it's necessary.




My meltas and blood lances are decent anti-tank against other armies. I'm aware I've limited my ability to handle a ton of armor. I don't expect to not pay a price for my play-style.

It's frustrating though that Grey Knights don't have to make that choice in the first place. They can do everything, better than you, without needing to focus on said role. They're very versatile, yes. They're also noticeably more expensive. A full 10 strong purifier squad with 4 psycannons, a rhino, and all halberds is 340pts. A 10 strong GH squad in a rhino with a melta and a combi melta sporting a powerfist is still a decent threat against tanks and will win most combats with similarly costed units and is 218pts, so the Purifier unit is about 56% more. The big issue with the purifier squad is undercosted Psycannons and Cleansing Flame (not so much an issue against Marines as they'll likely choose to use Hammerhand most of the time). If Psycannons were 20/25pts like they are on other units that can take lots of them and/or move&fire with them, they wouldn't be quite as big of a problem.

Yeah, they could use a points bump, I'm totally with you there, but they're not untouchable or unbeatable.



Having people that I tabled consistently with other armies suddenly become a force to be reckoned with, says something to me. Am I to believe their skill level just shot-up over night? Nope but the same could be said of many armies, BA's/IG/DE/Necrons/SW's included. It may also just be an issue of not adjusting to their capabilities yet. I certainly had that experience with Necrons the other day when a unit of 20 warriors just showed up on a flank and cleared house.




Blood lances work wonders against people who run a "parking lot" style gun-line. My anti-tank suffers because the enemy isn't waiting for me to bring the fight to him; he's leaping across the board to engage me, making my scatters truly painful. Many other armies can do the same thing, I do it with IG all the time, spreading tanks out to where there's little good place to land. That's not exclusive to GK's.



I'm aware I've limited my ability to handle a ton of armor. I don't expect to not pay a price for my play-style. Except, that's exactly what you're doing. You've run into an opponent who can effectively take advantage of the gap *YOU* chose to create in your playstyle and are now upset because you've had to pay the price for it, despite apparently having a roughly equal win/loss ratio.

There's nothing unfluffy about taking some units with long range AT abilities in a jump pack army as long as they're not just static gunline units unless you just want an army of nothing but jump troops, in which case, it's not so much unfluffy as you just want jump troops, and if an opponent is able to exploit that, then why are you now complaining about having to pay that price?



No, the point you're attempting to salvage from your need to respond to my "codex envy" comment, is that I'm "not allowed" to be frustrated, because I won't tool my list.

We both know what this is. Only if you consider "tooling your list" to mean "intentionally leaving out every major support option that's put in the army for a reason and actively ignoring a need for long range anti-tank in an edition where vehicles are more prevalent and hardier than ever because I think taking anything without a jump pack ruins my army theme was a bad idea and I might want to change that".

You're complaining about making the choice to play with one hand behind your back while your opponents are apparently not so discerning.

You can still have a heavy jump pack theme and still take long range AT weapons. Toss in a few missile speeders to help cover that gap and then the AV12 flying thing carrying assault troops across the field might actually be able to be stopped before it hits your lines.

And yes, sometimes armies arise that force a change in the metagame and a change in people's lists. Orks did it (almost never saw flamers in 4E before they came out), IG did it, and so did DE and GK's to a lesser extent.



Your point has been "Grey Knights are busted, yeah. I'll admit that. But you can't claim that, because you won't tool a gun-line to fight them."
Again, no, see above. If you're going to complain about an army being busted while very intentionally leaving capability gaps in your army that any good all-comers list should cover to at least some extent that would probably increase your capability against almost all opponents, then that's not much of a leg to stand on.

If you're taking a good all-comers list with all the bases (assault, short range firepower, long range firepower, mobility, etc) and still routinely losing, then there's a good argument to be made. But when you intentionally leave gaps in your force's capabilities, then it's not possible to lay all the blame on the opposing book.

It'd be no different than complaining about land raider spam because I refuse to take anything higher than S7 in my army.



You suggest some of the worst advice, tactically, that I've ever read. I mean, it's not even good theory-crafting, then say that I must not be facing "competitive players".

I have to doubt your experience as well, Vaktathi. Seriously doubt it.

What praytell exactly is such terrible advice, other than stating that I simply give bad advice?




Purifier armies are effective enough to not need to invest all of their points into the hyper-killy purifiers. They're just icing on an army that has psyflemen dread support, and stormravens, casually destroying Guard.and in most missions that leaves me plenty of room to kill off their tiny number of troops so they have to fight for a tie at best. Their stormravens and psyriflemen can trade with my hydras and vendettas cheese for cheese, I'll come out the winner in a firefight like that.

Want to make a mech IG army scared? Take a ton of min/max'd TLLC razorback squads for troops to go with those dread and stormies instead of the purifiers to get out that edge in long range AT and match the scoring unit numbers and run maybe one or two small squads of purifiers just to mop up what comes out of the transports.










This apparently is motivation for Vaktathi to launch into an overtly hostile and hyperbolic rant toward Death. Only in response to some rather silly statements.



He's told his input doesn't mean f*&% all, because he doesn't play an optimal list. No, I didn't say that. However, because he's complaining that a 50% win ratio is awful and that neglecting to take any of the very intentionally provided support options is no reason he shouldn't achieve victory more often when his opponents are making full use of all of their capabilities is not a good argument as to why GK's are broken.

That's silly. It's like complaining about losing UFC match because you only want to use greco-roman wrestling moves despite knowing many other disciplines while your opponent has no issues throwing in jiu-jitsu, kickboxing, and fist blows and you make no use of any other form of martial arts you've been trained in.

Now, you may have an issue if your opponent is a higher weightclass, which you may be able to make in the case of BA's vs GK's, though probably not in the case of SW's vs GK's, but arguing that you lost because they took full advantage of their abilities while you didn't is a different story altogether.


Well guess what, I'm sure a lot of people out there aren't playing an optimal list to fight the Knights, or aren't playing to the best of their ability with what they have, so by this logic, I guess their opinions are moot as well. No, but when you're complaining about an opponent who is taking full advantage of their army and you're not as the reason for the book being broken (and not mentioning any of the much more noticeable reasons why the book is powerful like undercosted min/maxable henchmen, hilariously undercosted psybolt ammo, etc) it lends little credence to the argument.





Starting to see how ridiculous this is yet?Yes, but not the way you think it is.


EDIT: Thank you Treadhead_1st for making the point clearer than I apparently did.

Israfael
11-11-2011, 01:20
Most of the contention is regarding his basis on why he feels the Grey Knights are overpowered - a basis which several people find shaky.

I actually know Death Company, so you're free to claim bias, but his list is absolutely competitive. He runs a lot of jump Marines with fists, melta-guns, two librarians and sang priests sprinkled throughout. That combined with him being a skilled player, he tends to do very well for himself.

You can argue that if he wants to fair better against Grey Knights, he should alter his list, but he doesn't want to. He's a passionate fluff type who loves his list, despite its weakness. He accepts it.

I don't think that you, or Vaktathi, have any right, at all, to tell him that he's not welcome to voice his concerns about the codices balance, or lack of, based upon one army list he runs. He has several armies, some that are mechanized. He just mains the Angels.


Vaktathi may have been too confrontational, but the points he was addressing were fair game.

He acts like a petulant youth and expects a discussion. Surely you can see how that sets a tone for an argument, rather than a discussion.

Death didn't share his opinion regarding Space Wolves, so Vaktathi launched into an angst filled rant.


No, he wasn't - he was told his reasoning is a bit shaky. If someone fields an all-grot list, does that mean that Codex: Space Marines are overpowered as Tactical Marines can blow the Grots away, and they cannot dent Land Raiders?

Hey now, if I wanted hyperbolic comparisons, I'd talk to Vaktathi. He's not running grots, while attempting to pop Land Raiders. He's running the best assault oriented units in his codex, as efficiently as he can and being outdone by an under-priced Grey Knight unit.

That is frustrating. Something he has said, specifically. How is that input not valid to the discussion?


The view that Grey Knights are too powerful is fine. The view that, having tried many different races/styles/tactics against them is fine. Claiming that a single list cannot beat them is less fine, as there are other factors that can be involved (such as the quality of the aforementioned list).

His list is pretty solid, based on my opinion, obviously. He's won two local tournaments and is one of the better players in the store.

I don't think it's fair to dismiss his take on things.


What was that about hyperbole and hostile tones?

I'm not sure what you're implying here. Did you mistake that poster for me? Or are you claiming that Vaktathi is justified to act like that, because somebody else has, two pages back?


Only in response to some rather silly statements.

I cannot see anything in Death's original post to justify your aggressive tone, or your flippant replies.

Even if there was, do you, as an adult, find the justification of "well he did it first" appropriate? :eyebrows:


No, because he's complaining that a 50% win ratio is awful and that neglecting to take any of the very intentionally provided support options is no reason he shouldn't achieve victory more often when his opponents are making full use of all of their capabilities.

You complain about the load-out of a grey hunter. Who are you to choose who has a valid grievance? When yours seem equally petty and even more unfounded.


No, but when you're complaining about an opponent who is taking full advantage of their army and you're not as the reason for the book being broken (and not mentioning any of the much more noticeable reasons why the book is powerful like undercosted min/maxable henchmen, hilariously undercosted psybolt ammo, etc) it lends little credence to the argument.

He pointed out several aspects of their codex that were overpowered. Things widely acknowledged: like psyfemen, purifiers, and death cult.

Reading comprehension is important when you attempt to belittle others. It looks bad when you can't even recall your opponents points.


Yes, but not the way you think it is.

Your opinion tends to be grossly wrong. I'm not sweating too bad.

Robot Unicorn
11-11-2011, 01:27
Grey Knights are significantly more powerful than Space Wolves. I can understand how you could become frustrated by having to play a WAAC Knight player.

That said, I've already reported Vaktathi for what I consider inappropriate behavior. For those who were considering doing the same.

Okuto
11-11-2011, 01:30
IF anything Space puppies are the only guys who can fight toe to toe with GK....I find it odd a SW player would find much fault with GK....

Robot Unicorn
11-11-2011, 01:32
IF anything Space puppies are the only guys who can fight toe to toe with GK....I find it odd a SW player would find much fault with GK....

That's a misconception, really.

It's the Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar that have the edge over Grey Knights.

Minsc
11-11-2011, 01:46
the op said that he thinks that GK are overpowered and his SW are not as good. i dont see a problem here. he is right. i find SW easier to face than GKs. and i think that most people will agree with me and him. you dont have to play something sucky to be able to have a moan.

Almost, but not quite. ;)
The OP said that he thinks GK are so overpowered, that SW cannot be called overpowered by anyone anymore.
It's true that GK are better than SW (in my opinion at least), but that doesn't mean that SW all of a sudden stops being as powerful as they were compared to the other 10+ armies in this game, before GK was released.

SW are really powerful. GK are really powerful+1. For most other armies out there, they can both be a real pain to face.

Treadhead_1st
11-11-2011, 02:08
I actually know Death Company, so you're free to claim bias, but his list is absolutely competitive. He runs a lot of jump Marines with fists, melta-guns, two librarians and sang priests sprinkled throughout. That combined with him being a skilled player, he tends to do very well for himself.
...
His list is pretty solid, based on my opinion, obviously. He's won two local tournaments and is one of the better players in the store.

I don't think it's fair to dismiss his take on things.


I am not dismissing his take on things, but rather was attempting to clarify the core element of Vaktathi's argument, which involved questioning his reasoning for drawing his conclusion on Grey Knights as opposed to the actual conclusion itself.

His list is not competitive. Well, it probably is/was, but rather that as it cannot deal with Grey Knights (a popular army present at tournaments) then it is no longer an all-comers army, and there are lengths that could be taken to rectify the short-comings of the list, giving a more even game against them (I have already explained why this is not tailoring in previous posts).

This leads me to:


You can argue that if he wants to fair better against Grey Knights, he should alter his list, but he doesn't want to. He's a passionate fluff type who loves his list, despite its weakness. He accepts it.

Heck, I get that - I'm a die-hard Salamanders player, loving the background, to the point that I *like* my Captain and Command Squad and so won't field Vulkan (despite how powerful a character he can be), field very few Fast Attack units and take Devastator Squads in all their overpriced glory. I like the horror aspect of Tyranids, and field many Flying units (including the Harpy) and Lictors, and even still roll with Carnifexes and massed Hormagaunts.

This is not a problem. The problem is then using a personal themed army that is going to have innate problems with certain lists (it is inevitable when you have a theme, such as Jump Pack Only) as an argument that a certain book is imbalanced is not a sound argument to make. In fact, the arguments made (initially, see his reply to my post) imply that he doesn't accept the weaknesses of his force.


I don't think that you, or Vaktathi, have any right, at all, to tell him that he's not welcome to voice his concerns about the codices balance, or lack of, based upon one army list he runs. He has several armies, some that are mechanized. He just mains the Angels.

He is welcome to voice his concerns, just as we should be welcome to express our views that those concerns are either based on a false premise, or are a problem of his own making, and thereby are not necessarily concerns, as there are adaptations that could be made to address his primary issues with the Grey Knight book.


He acts like a petulant youth and expects a discussion. Surely you can see how that sets a tone for an argument, rather than a discussion.

Indeed - but the points he was making were still sound, and not all of his posts are argumentative, hostile or hyperbolic.

It could even be down to the problem of debating issues close to the heart (like a certain style of army list) over the internet, where tone gets sucked out of posts and they can be misinterpreted. I'm sure I probably sound quite frothing at various points in this very post, yet I can assure you that I am nothing of the sort and have the best intentions.


Death didn't share his opinion regarding Space Wolves, so Vaktathi launched into an angst filled rant.

Bringing up the Space Wolves, in the context of this thread (particularly the implications contained within the original post), is valid - however I can see how Vaktathi's posts came across.


Hey now, if I wanted hyperbolic comparisons, I'd talk to Vaktathi. He's not running grots, while attempting to pop Land Raiders. He's running the best assault oriented units in his codex, as efficiently as he can and being outdone by an under-priced Grey Knight unit.

That is frustrating. Something he has said, specifically. How is that input not valid to the discussion?

It may be hyperbolic, but is serves to make my point. He may be fielding the best Blood Angels assault-oriented units in his codex very efficiently indeed...but that doesn't mean that they can (or perhaps even should, I do not know I am not responsible for writing the Codex) outright out-assault Purifiers. Which means a dual approach is required, and the army list (by design) lacks the ability to handle that approach well. That is not a problem with the Grey Knights codex, but one of the construction of the army.

Are Purifiers under-priced? Yes, in my opinion. But if one plays on the tournament scene, then one has to accept that these units are going to come up - and so you need a way to deal with them, not simply because they are overpowered for their cost, but because to top that off you haven't taken the tools you need to deal with them.



I'm not sure what you're implying here. Did you mistake that poster for me? Or are you claiming that Vaktathi is justified to act like that, because somebody else has, two pages back?

I didn't confuse the two of you, hence the separate quotes, but rather noting that having been talking about hyperbolic and hostile comments, your good self and the other poster bung in two hyperbolic comments that can be taken as relatively hostile.

Israfael
11-11-2011, 02:33
I am not dismissing his take on things, but rather was attempting to clarify the core element of Vaktathi's argument, which involved questioning his reasoning for drawing his conclusion on Grey Knights as opposed to the actual conclusion itself.

That's a fair enough point. Perhaps Death should of presented his argument from the stance of all of his armies, rather than just the limited stance of his assault Angels.


His list is not competitive. Well, it probably is/was, but rather that as it cannot deal with Grey Knights (a popular army present at tournaments) then it is no longer an all-comers army, and there are lengths that could be taken to rectify the short-comings of the list, giving a more even game against them (I have already explained why this is not tailoring in previous posts).

To be fair, he did acknowledge that his list isn't technically an "all comer" anymore, given that Knights make him struggle.


Heck, I get that - I'm a die-hard Salamanders player, loving the background, to the point that I *like* my Captain and Command Squad and so won't field Vulkan (despite how powerful a character he can be), field very few Fast Attack units and take Devastator Squads in all their overpriced glory. I like the horror aspect of Tyranids, and field many Flying units (including the Harpy) and Lictors, and even still roll with Carnifexes and massed Hormagaunts.

This is not a problem. The problem is then using a personal themed army that is going to have innate problems with certain lists (it is inevitable when you have a theme, such as Jump Pack Only) as an argument that a certain book is imbalanced is not a sound argument to make. In fact, the arguments made (initially, see his reply to my post) imply that he doesn't accept the weaknesses of his force.

I think he knows full well the weakness and is just frustrated by it.


He is welcome to voice his concerns, just as we should be welcome to express our views that those concerns are either based on a false premise, or are a problem of his own making, and thereby are not necessarily concerns, as there are adaptations that could be made to address his primary issues with the Grey Knight book.

You could argue they're of his own making, yeah. I see that.

I think you're missing the point he was trying to convey though; it bothers him that his army cannot compete at all against Grey Knights in assault even if he tweaks the entire list to be optimal in assaults. The arguably most assaulty Marine variant cannot beat Knights in melee, despite what he fields.

I think that's what drives him nuts. The purifier fancying Knight can make a pretty balanced shooting and assault list that can handle all threats and still beat him at his own game.

Which is understandably frustrating.


Indeed - but the points he was making were still sound, and not all of his posts are argumentative, hostile or hyperbolic.

It's difficult to sift through his attempts to antagonize others and snide comments, to find those small clippets of valid discussion.


It could even be down to the problem of debating issues close to the heart (like a certain style of army list) over the internet, where tone gets sucked out of posts and they can be misinterpreted. I'm sure I probably sound quite frothing at various points in this very post, yet I can assure you that I am nothing of the sort and have the best intentions.

I can't speak for Death, but I know that I never felt your posts were aggressive or childish - unlike Vaktathi.

It's a fair point though. He's constantly being asked in the shop why he doesn't run "internet list #1" and it drives him nuts.


Bringing up the Space Wolves, in the context of this thread (particularly the implications contained within the original post), is valid - however I can see how [b]Vaktathi[b]'s posts came across.

Glad you see it.


It may be hyperbolic, but is serves to make my point. He may be fielding the best Blood Angels assault-oriented units in his codex very efficiently indeed...but that doesn't mean that they can (or perhaps even should, I do not know I am not responsible for writing the Codex) outright out-assault Purifiers. Which means a dual approach is required, and the army list (by design) lacks the ability to handle that approach well. That is not a problem with the Grey Knights codex, but one of the construction of the army.

Are Purifiers under-priced? Yes, in my opinion. But if one plays on the tournament scene, then one has to accept that these units are going to come up - and so you need a way to deal with them, not simply because they are overpowered for their cost, but because to top that off you haven't taken the tools you need to deal with them.

Both are fair points.


I didn't confuse the two of you, hence the separate quotes, and I am not attempting to defend Vaktathi (he can do that himself, I was just hoping to clarify the argument he was making) but rather having been talking about hyperbolic and hostile comments, your good self and the other poster bung in two hyperbolic comments that can be taken as relatively hostile.

I apologize if you felt I was rude while talking with you, it was admittedly directed at Vaktathi. I don't take kindly when people purposely antagonize my friends.

Treadhead_1st
11-11-2011, 02:51
Again I am going to butcher a post, so that I can address several paragraphs at the same time rather than repeating myself.


That's a fair enough point. Perhaps Death should of presented his argument from the stance of all of his armies, rather than just the limited stance of his assault Angels.
...
I think he knows full well the weakness and is just frustrated by it.
...
I think you're missing the point he was trying to convey though; it bothers him that his army cannot compete at all against Grey Knights in assault even if he tweaks the entire list to be optimal in assaults. The arguably most assaulty Marine variant cannot beat Knights in melee, despite what he fields.

I think that's what drives him nuts. The purifier fancying Knight can make a pretty balanced shooting and assault list that can handle all threats and still beat him at his own game.

Which is understandably frustrating.


The thing is, the Grey Knights can out-assault Blood Angels - I would say they are more designed as a Combat army than a Shooty army - what with Paladins, so many CCW upgrades, Combat-based Psychic Powers, insane Grenades and so on. They do have excellent ranged support (which I feel is a major issue with the pricing of Psybolt Ammunition, certain rules for the Henchmen, and general Mech-spam of 5th Edition), but short-range and CC is their thing. Equally, armies such as Imperial Guard, Space Wolves and Dark Eldar can out-shoot Grey Knights by quite a significant margin - the Purifiers are very much a "Rock, Paper, Scissors" build. It is unfortunate for your friend that they are more of a Paper to his Rock.

A Blood Angels army is famed for its assault abilities - but there is a reason it holds units such as Fast Predators (with Flamestorm cannons no less), Devastators, Vindicators, Land Speeders and so on. Chiefly, that there are some seriously nasty CC units out and about in the game. The inclusion of these units indicates that Blood Angels are not a "pure" short-range/assault army, but a very good one.

Blood Angels units can, and indeed do, take on Purifiers - they just need some decent power to weaken the opponent at range



To be fair, he did acknowledge that his list isn't technically an "all comer" anymore, given that Knights make him struggle.


That is what I meant when I said "at least initially - see his reply to my post". Before I came into the discussion, it very much seemed otherwise - I would have liked to continue the discussion beyond his final reply, but he asked not to.


It's difficult to sift through his attempts to antagonize others and snide comments, to find those small clippets of valid discussion.
...
I can't speak for Death, but I know that I never felt your posts were aggressive or childish - unlike Vaktathi.
...
I apologize if you felt I was rude while talking with you, it was admittedly directed at Vaktathi. I don't take kindly when people purposely antagonize my friends.

I am glad that I did not come across as antagonistic, and don't worry I didn't feel you were rude (this is the internet after all)! I hope you don't mind if I leave Vaktathi to defend his own comments (more generally, rather than the specific points I have picked up on), as it would not be appropriate for me to talk for him.



It's a fair point though. He's constantly being asked in the shop why he doesn't run "internet list #1" and it drives him nuts.

Oh, I hate that attitude. The amount of flak I get for not running Vulkan is insane. Especially if I fudge up (such as positioning my units very poorly) and lose, it is all pinned on being awful because I haven't fielded a certain Special Character, a certain Assault unit, and a certain AV14 box.

I apologise if that is how I came across - I am very much an advocate of running what you like, and learning to use it very well, rather than running the "internet list #1".

Surgency
11-11-2011, 04:00
I think you're missing the point he was trying to convey though; it bothers him that his army cannot compete at all against Grey Knights in assault even if he tweaks the entire list to be optimal in assaults. The arguably most assaulty Marine variant cannot beat Knights in melee, despite what he fields.

So, he's at a roughly 50% W/L rate against an army that he cannot properly compete against, and he's complaining that he can't compete against them? I'm not seeing an issue.



I can't speak for Death, but I know that I never felt your posts were aggressive or childish - unlike Vaktathi.

I'd like to point out how childish this particular point is. "You're okay, I'm okay, and My friend is okay, but that guy over there, he's being incredibly childish."


I apologize if you felt I was rude while talking with you, it was admittedly directed at Vaktathi. I don't take kindly when people purposely antagonize my friends.

How dare he be rude to your friend! By all means, though, be rude to someone who isn't your friend... :shifty:

Mit Gas
11-11-2011, 04:11
Trolling is a reportable offense on Warseer. The tone of your post is dangerously close to the definition.

If you take it as trolling, you might be offended by the truth behind my post. I was merely stating facts. If you play the second best army out there (at least from what people on here claim) and you whine like a little baby because someone has finally gotten an even better codex, you look like a dolt to some. I was merely explaining why he got so many negative replies. Space Wolves are GW's insider-Ultramarines. They get so much nice stuff and rules(at least compared to a few others), SW players shouldn't really complain.

Justicar_Freezer
11-11-2011, 04:17
I've read through this thread and a few others here on warseer about Grey Knights and a question has popped into my head.

Is every single Grey Knight player out there a WAAC player or is the book that overly broken that even a Knight player playing a fluffy list is still running an over powered army.

I ask this because I've played Grey Knights since the Demon Hunter Codex where I had people laugh because I refused to take inquisition units. I've picked up the new book and to be honest I think it's horribly boring. I've tried writing army lists up multiple times but I get bored about half way through and give up.

But to me from a fluff perspective all purifier armies really shouldn't happen. It says in the codex they are really rare like at most times there are only two score of them. Also does no one take land raiders to drive their knights around in? I mean the storm raven is kinda cool but it's also ugly and seems weird for the knights to have. If anything it would make more sense to me for knights to share deep striking land raiders with blood angels.

Then there's the ability to run an all terminator troops, paladin army that would be so striking and awesome on the table top and no one talks about it. Is there just something about the knights codex? I mean the shop owner I know around me picked up Grey Knights when the book came out and he runs the boring purifer spam, dreadknight storm raven list with a sprinkling of henchmen for added power.

When he told me this I was annoyed because to me that's not grey knights. So to the op I can't really say I'm upset with grey knights because I've not played the new army list nor played against it. Though I have to wonder if perhaps people played more fluffy knight lists with strike squad troops or terminator/paladin elite armies maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

I just have a hard time thinking that the faction I've loved since 2nd edition is such a broken monster that they should be shunned. It makes me wonder just how many actual knight players out there try and play a balanced fluffy army and if you're one why not speak up. Perhaps the balanced knight players are a silent majority then again maybe not?

Israfael
11-11-2011, 04:32
So, he's at a roughly 50% W/L rate against an army that he cannot properly compete against, and he's complaining that he can't compete against them? I'm not seeing an issue.

His complaint was that even when he wins, the games are completely drained of their fun due to the power and price imbalances.

I'd suggest reading the entire thread before post sniping.


I'd like to point out how childish this particular point is. "You're okay, I'm okay, and My friend is okay, but that guy over there, he's being incredibly childish."

I don't see how this has anything to do with you, aside from you apparently upping that post count.

It's been pointed out by several people throughout the thread that Vaktathi was out of line, right out of the gate. Setting an aggressive tone for entire thread. But hey, it's so much more entertaining to just leap into the conversation without any idea what's going on.


How dare he be rude to your friend! By all means, though, be rude to someone who isn't your friend... :shifty:

Are you done? :eyebrows:

Death Company
11-11-2011, 04:37
I appreciate the support, brother. :D

I concede that it was poor form arguing against their imbalance using only my fluffy - and admittedly - overly specialized army as an example for why they're broken.

That said, I appreciate those who attempted to point that out to me respectfully, like Treadhead and the like.

Forsworn
11-11-2011, 04:38
I do! :P

I think I might be the only one in my state.

My list includes:,
2 Strike squads, 1 Interceptor squad, 1 Terminator Squad
Every time.

After that I add some of the following in no particular order:
5 Paladins
Vindicare, Eversor
Dreadknight

The HQ I vary between a Grandmaster, Inquisitor, and Librarian. I sometimes add in a Brotherhood Champion for fun. I also own Crowe (though I never run him as himself) and STern (run him as a Captain/Grandmaster).

I'm thinking of making my latest (4th) Squad either a Purgation squad or a Purifier Squad. I like both, but honestly lean towards the purifiers (I like their background, and it'd give me some more punch in assault (*hides behind flame-shield*))

My eventual army will (I hope) look as follows:

Dreadknight
Techmarine
2x Strike Squads
2x Terminator Squads
2x Interceptor Squads
1x Purgation Squad
1x Purifier Squad
1x Paladin Squad
Dreadnought
Land Raider (For Paladins)

With one of each HQ choice and a single retinue. The idea is to have a command cadre (Champion, Librarian, Techmarine, Grandmaster/Captain) leading a demi-company of Grey Knights (Justicar and IC would have his own backstory and name :D). I'd also like to include Inquisitor Valeria.
:)

Vaktathi
11-11-2011, 06:38
Thanks again Treadhead_1st for getting across my points better than I apparently am able to.



I cannot see anything in Death's original post to justify your aggressive tone, or your flippant replies.


Really?


The majority of the people who are venting angst at you for playing Space Wolves just have codex envy.

So the majority of people going "hey, wait...SW's are having the issue here?" are just venting angst because of codex envy?

If one throws around sillyness like that, be prepared to receive an apt reply.



Even if there was, do you, as an adult, find the justification of "well he did it first" appropriate? :eyebrows: When throwing around accusations of trolling, complaining about the results of poorly thought out assaults, and codex envy, do you, as a grown adult, expect such sillyness to go unanswered?

If you can't take heat for your posts, don't dish it out in the first place, because people will respond.

That said, point out to me in my initial response to DC where I was being flippant or aggressive. In fact, I think most people would read his first response to me as being much more aggressive than my initial response. Care to re-read page 2 and see where the "aggression" really started?




And no, I never said his opinion didn't count or that anyone shouldn't have a say. Only that

A: if you're coming on and creating a whole new thread where you're actively claiming one of the most widely bemoaned armies in the game as your own and how there's practically nothing wrong with it aside from internet legend (as the OP postulated) but that another army is totally busted and you can't see why anyone has a problem with your army, then its probably not going to get much sympathy and that there's plenty of tools in that army to deal with the one you're bemoaning.

and

B: Attempting to argue that there's something wrong with another army (despite claiming to have a fairly even win ratio) because it takes advantage of a weakness you intentionally went out of your way not to cover, or because you're attempting to pit one unit against a foe that's practically tailor made to defeat it and it's not turning out as you want it to, isn't exactly a compelling argument.


Do either of these assertions appear unsound? Do either sound like I'm telling someone to not post or that their opinions don't matter? No, I'm saying their arguments are flawed.



You complain about the load-out of a grey hunter. Who are you to choose who has a valid grievance? When yours seem equally petty and even more unfounded. How so? Aside from just stating that, could you explain why? I'm trying to argue from a comparative standpoint between units with similar roles, abilities and costs with all options on the table, not boiling it down primarily to just a couple units based on the assumption that only a small slice of the codex options are on the table.




He pointed out several aspects of their codex that were overpowered. Things widely acknowledged: like psyfemen, purifiers, and death cult. Briefly, sure, but the crux of the conversation was over the singular aspect of the Purifiers and ubiquitous force weapons just being so apparently unbeatable. "assault is literally not an option" were the words regarding purifiers, and bypassing most of the rest of the stuff which really are the bigger strengths of the army



Reading comprehension is important when you attempt to belittle others. It looks bad when you can't even recall your opponents points. See above, I'm not the one throwing around insults and avoiding talking points in favor of ad-hominem attacks.




Your opinion tends to be grossly wrong. I'm not sweating too bad.Based on what other than the fact that you simply state them to be so? Other than addressing what you see as rude behavior, (and ignoring entirely that of the other parties here) you haven't actually addressed any of my arguments or examples.



It's been pointed out by several people throughout the thread that Vaktathi was out of line, right out of the gate. Setting an aggressive tone for entire thread. But hey, it's so much more entertaining to just leap into the conversation without any idea what's going on.
Yeah, you, your brother who simply launched into an outright personal attack without actually addressing any points, your friend, and one random person who didn't address anything. I don't know any of the people who came to defend my argumentations and they all actually responded to discussion topics instead of just saying "oh the hypocrisy" and peacing out.

Bunnahabhain
11-11-2011, 11:33
Some people ( naming no names for the sake of diplomacy) have been rather rude and touchy for no apparent reason, and others have let themselves react, when they should know better. Shall we all cool down a bit?

Treadhead_1st
11-11-2011, 11:59
I concede that it was poor form arguing against their imbalance using only my fluffy - and admittedly - overly specialized army as an example for why they're broken.

As I hope I made clear, I do think they're pretty broken myself - and just to point out (and it is not a snipe, just a comment on something you said earlier), I may be called Treadhead but my Guard army are mostly infantry - I like battle tanks, not transports ;).


That said, I appreciate those who attempted to point that out to me respectfully, like Treadhead and the like.

It's quite all right - I was worried that I came across as abrasive. As I mentioned earlier, commenting on things that people hold dear to them can be taken the wrong way on the internet, I genuinely didn't mean to make you feel overwhelmed in this conversation.


Thanks again Treadhead_1st for getting across my points better than I apparently am able to.


You're welcome - though I hope you don't mind, and that it was not improper, for me to butt into the conversation; I certainly did not want to go putting words in your mouth, or make an argument that you did not intend to make.

Surgency
11-11-2011, 13:21
His complaint was that even when he wins, the games are completely drained of their fun due to the power and price imbalances.

I'd suggest reading the entire thread before post sniping.

I did read the entire thread. For most of the conversation, it went "GK Purifies are OP because I can't play against them the way I want to play"

"Well, did you think of adding X, X, and X into your list to make your list better able to handle purifiers?"

"Stop trolling me bro, GK are way better than me, and I play a fluffy list, so they're obviously way OP, especially those purifiers."

"If you don't use all your codex, how can you call them OP?"

"doesn't matter, I'm right, you're wrong, and I'll get my friend here to prove it to you"


Okay, so that may be overly simplified, but thats essentially what you and DC did. Vaktathi brought up very valid points, in a reasonable manner, and you resorted to personal attacks on him, declaring him a troll, and an idiot, and completely dismissing anyone who agreed with him.


I don't see how this has anything to do with you, aside from you apparently upping that post count.

Oh, so internet forums are not available for anyone to post in, or comment on? I'll be sure to ask your permission next time before posting in a thread that you're in.


It's been pointed out by several people throughout the thread that Vaktathi was out of line, right out of the gate. Setting an aggressive tone for entire thread. But hey, it's so much more entertaining to just leap into the conversation without any idea what's going on.

Its been pointed out by you and your buddy, and some guy who didn't even address anything said, but rather just attacked Vaktathi. Thats not several people.


Are you done? :eyebrows:

Are you? You never did address the main point of the OP, unlike Vaktathi. All you seem to want to do is jump in to defend your buddy because he's helpless without you, and completely dismiss the main point of the thread, then throw around ad hominim attacks like they're candy, all while trying to pretend you're taking the moral high ground.

Cheeslord
11-11-2011, 13:33
Well, I've played against SW (frequently) and GK (once). From my point of view GK seem significantly more broken, and we're currently not playing them in my gaming group.

they seem to be strong vs. everyone, have a wide variety of "super" builds and counters to practically anything, and then on top of that be insanely good vs. some specific races since they practically ignore so many of the game rules (toughness, armour, wounds ... and WS against daemons).

I might have a one-sided experience since I play daemons and was stomped flat by Draigowing (killing about 2 Paladins and a techmarine for the loss of 2/3 of my army), and apparently dark-eldar are good against them, but I am really not enthused to play against them as it doesn't feel like a fair game.

Mark.

<edit> If, as rumoured, Favoured Enemy will also apply to shooting in 6th ed. then at least the GK vs. Daemon matchup will be "fixed" ... in terms of fixed outcome...

Denny
11-11-2011, 13:47
I play Eldar.

I have two friends currently building Wolf and Grey Knight armies. I also play against Blood Angels a fair bit.

My Eldar struggle against Blood Angels. The FNP save prevents my S6 shooting from making much of an impact. They're dang fast too, and once they hit combat I'm toast!

The wolves are annoying, but can be taken out. Tough but fun.

The Grey Knights are easy. My Farseers' RoW tend to disrupt my opponent’s battle plans/kill his squad leaders, and expensive MEQ units are easy to spam to death. It almost doesn’t seem fair (expect for those damn dreads, I hate those!). Our local guard player doesn’t seem bother by them either; battle cannons do the job well enough.

My point? Sometimes an army can be OP against some opponents but weak against others. Is the real problem that Grey Knights are awesome MEQ killers, and the disproportionate number of MEQ armies makes them seem OP?

(I don’t know for sure but I wonder if any other Xeno players have any thoughts?)

Wishing
11-11-2011, 13:55
It's not that I can't beat it, either; it's just more like the army seems designed to take that very one thing that is sacred in gaming, the mutual unspoken goal of two people having fun, and completely replaces that with this competitive ugly version instead.

I'm not sure I understand why GK being overpowered violates what is sacred about gaming, and SW or IG being overpowered doesn't. Why does precisely this level of overpoweredness destroy the fun of the game, whereas everything else overpowered is just to be shrugged off and ignored?

To me, it sounds like GKs annoy you because you are not used to being on the receiving end of something that is overpowered compared to your army. The solution is to suck it up, forget about the concept of overpoweredness and "just play", like you describe the philosophy of your group to be. Pretend you're a tyranid player. :)

Caitsidhe
11-11-2011, 14:30
I'm going to chime in here again, briefly. All this angst and discussion only serves to underline the fact that Games Workshop does poor GAME design. There really isn't much reason to get mad at each other. Save your energy and bile for the people who created the whole situation in the first place. Are Space Wolves somewhat broken? Yes. Are Grey Knights broken. Yes. Can both armies be fought effectively by a few other factions with the right builds? Yes.

The fact that there are "some" factions that can do a build to defeat these armies (depending of course on which build they use) is beside the point. From a game standpoint, they are still broken. The game side of the equation and the tournament are joined at the hip. In the United States, at least, a large portion of regular gaming is garnered at tournaments. Moreover, lots of gaming between tournaments is preparation for tournaments. Whether or not this "sport" approach to the hobby is good or bad is grist for another mill. What matters for this discussion is it is true.

The game is not good because the factions are not remotely balanced. To beat certain armies (Space Wolves and Grey Knights in particular) most other factions have little choice but to build for them alone. Sadly, the build required to have any chance (and often it is a slim one) against these two factions is at a disadvantage against the builds you will run into against most other factions. In short, broken coda make it impossible to build tactical, "all comer" lists. This is a problem because it leads to exactly the kind of garbage most people bemoan, i.e. repetitive, over use of a few effective lists.

I play 40K, Warhammer Fantasy, and Warmachine/Hordes as well as many other tactical games. Warmachine/Hordes is the superior game. In time they might become superior in hobby too. Only time will tell there. For now I would give Games Workshop props on the hobby side. The reason Warmachine/Hordes is the superior game is because of the following:

1. The game is as balanced as possible between the different factions.
2. When they do a new game edition they put out all faction updates within the same year.
3. The correct glaring problems quickly when they find them rather than waiting a 5-10 years.
4. They put our a reliable production schedule way in advance and they keep to it.
5. They do involve (or at least pretend to involve) their players in design.
6. They make no bones about the game/sport side of their product and support it.
7. Consistency is the byword.

I could go on to ten reasons but the ones after these are largely irrelevant. It suffices to say that Warmachine/Hordes, while a much smaller company that has only been around a comparatively short time, has made great inroads into the market and is growing pretty solidly. I play in both systems and at tournaments for both and I have found that Warmachine/Hordes players are no less polite and friendly than Games Workshop players (often better behaved which I find odd). Pick up games are just as easy to get (which is also odd given that it is supposedly a smaller game with fewer players), and that game play <GASP> tends to match the fluff. This last fact owes a lot to good game design.

I don't want you to get the idea that I'm doing a commercial for them. I'm not. I don't want Games Workshop to go belly up. I want Games Workshop to get better. It wouldn't hurt them to take on some of the effective strategies and habits of this other company. I don't think any of us would be unhappy with reliable, logical production and release, consistency in product and balanced factions.

Flikre213
11-11-2011, 15:32
My point? Sometimes an army can be OP against some opponents but weak against others. Is the really problem that Grey Knights are awesome MEQ killers, and the disproportionate number of MEQ armies makes them seem OP?

(I don’t know for sure but I wonder if any other Xeno players have any thoughts?)

It seems to me that GK were designed to combat daemons and C:SM, and C:SM are basicaly space marines, thats why so many marine players have trouble with them. The Xeno races have totally different units and tactics thats why they fair better against GK.

Oakwolf
11-11-2011, 15:48
I guess daemons are just not playable vs grey knights unless you abuse the khornate gift (Blessing), and to some extent fateweaver.

Since i got slaanesh, i'm screwed ( @$%! grenades).

Ultraloth
11-11-2011, 15:54
My point? Sometimes an army can be OP against some opponents but weak against others. Is the really problem that Grey Knights are awesome MEQ killers, and the disproportionate number of MEQ armies makes them seem OP?

You might be on to something there. Not great game design though. (Playing rock-paper-siccors by selecting an army to collect and paint.)

Konovalev
14-11-2011, 15:31
I'm not sure I understand why GK being overpowered violates what is sacred about gaming, and SW or IG being overpowered doesn't. Why does precisely this level of overpoweredness destroy the fun of the game, whereas everything else overpowered is just to be shrugged off and ignored?

To me, it sounds like GKs annoy you because you are not used to being on the receiving end of something that is overpowered compared to your army. The solution is to suck it up, forget about the concept of overpoweredness and "just play", like you describe the philosophy of your group to be. Pretend you're a tyranid player. :)

I agree with this. No codex is unbeatable, adapt and overcome.

jt.glass
14-11-2011, 17:26
Well, I've played against SW (frequently) and GK (once).As the opponent in each case, I should point out that as well as being a total whitewash, the GK game was deeply boring for both sides. In the interests of full disclosure, I should also point out that we have agreed not to use JotWW; not something I minded agreeing too much, since I think Living Lightning and Murderous Hurricane are better anyway (except against a handful of targets which I don't face often).


You might be on to something there. Not great game design though. (Playing rock-paper-siccors by selecting an army to collect and paint.)Agreed. A certain amount of favourability or otherwise in different matchups is to be expected, but not to the extent that it is ATM.


jt.

Azulthar
14-11-2011, 17:30
Grey Knight > Grey Hunter > other Marines

Pretty easy to understand. Nothing's unbeatable, some are just harder to beat than others.

Bunnahabhain
14-11-2011, 18:18
Grey Knight > Grey Hunter > other Marines

Pretty easy to understand. Nothing's unbeatable, some are just harder to beat than others.

Even easier to understand:
Cost of Grey knights> Cost of other marines > Cost of Grey hunters.

Nothing is unbeatable, but costing it somewhere near right helps

samiens
14-11-2011, 21:28
I play tau and would rather face either instead of blood angels! Some armies just flat out have an advantage over others- its not as simple as one being definitely better than the other.

GK and SW are both top tier and quite capable of bearing each other- nothing much more to say, my opinion is that IG still maim both

ArmyC
14-11-2011, 22:58
Perhaps 6th edition will cure these issues.

I doubt 6th will tone SW and GK down. Perhaps it will amplify Eldar, Tau, and Nids.

ArmyC
14-11-2011, 23:27
I have used the following Mechdar list to go undefeated at two large tournaments. I didn't win either one, due to secondary objectives etc. However, I have won objective games, and annialation games with this list.

Since I have switched to this "current meta" "tournament focused" list, AND LEARNED HOW TO PLAY IT!!! I have been surprised how effective it has been.

Eldrad
Autarch (FG)

3 DAVU Falcons (5 Dire Avengers, holofields, stones, missile launchers)

3 Fire Dragons Squads (5 FD, Wave Serpent, Stones, missile launchers)

1 Guardian Jetbike Squad (5) w/Shuriken Cannon

2 Vyper Sqdrns (2 vypers with 2 shuriken cannons each)

I can play deployment games with Eldrad and the Autarch. I have psychic defense. I load up on S8 to demobilize all transports. I have 3 melta squads for AV 14 and 2+ saves.

This is a total "Float like a butterfly, Sting like a Bee" list.

This list is undefeated vs. Orks, GK, SW, Nids, BA, CD, CSM, and Sm.

I believe that a tournament winning list exists inside every codex.

Archangel_Ruined
14-11-2011, 23:29
I've only read the first page of this here thing and nobody has mentioned purifiers yet. Shock horror. I take issue with I6 instant death dealing, S5 bulletstorming, psychic horde bashing, four heavy flamer of death troop choices... Everything else might be tough but that's just getting a little silly. I know I'm not alone here either.

Azulthar
14-11-2011, 23:47
Even easier to understand:
Cost of Grey knights> Cost of other marines > Cost of Grey hunters.
I already factored in the cost. Grey Knights only cost +4 points over a normal marine and gain their squad leaders for free. They're a bargain, even more so than Grey Hunters.

Axel
15-11-2011, 01:58
Well, on the original posting:

SW are certainly overpowered to some degree. I think nobody would have said much about GH IF the SW had not already become the most potent psychers (with character killing sniping powers) and a heavy weapon slot that is too good NOT to take. The latter are not in the character of the army.

But...

I fully agree that compared to GK they are pretty tame. While all the stuff GK have may be in character, they are priced in a way that puts them on another level. They are not fun to play against, even when you win or draw.


In a competetive environment they imho have too many cheap gimmicks that makes the game miserable to unwinable for many other armies. Not all have plenty of AP2 or long range anti tank. Their efficient units are far too cheap for what they do, and they do have a LOT of options that are these way.

In a fun environment, its worse. Unless you have a player who deliberately does not build his army for efficiency they are no fun to play against. Its like the author did not want anybody to beat them, and stacked up powers to that regard. It FEELS this way for the opponents, eg. you are playing against the author, not only the player. Its like they have an "autowin" build in for many situations.

Konovalev
15-11-2011, 17:20
I play tau and would rather face either instead of blood angels! Some armies just flat out have an advantage over others- its not as simple as one being definitely better than the other.

GK and SW are both top tier and quite capable of bearing each other- nothing much more to say, my opinion is that IG still maim both

1000 times this. My Tau don't care about halberds, +1-2 str, or force weapons, everything I have will die just as easily in melee without those things.

Psyfilemen? I pen them on a 3+ with my 5 railguns, and glance them on 5+ with my 12 missile pods, not to mention the odd fusion blaster and plasma rifles glancing on 6's. The more the merrier, means less stuff to wreck me in close combat with, and more stuff for me to outshoot.

Blood Angels though, it's incredibly difficult to outmeneuver them with their fast vehicles, jump infantry, and descent of angels. FNP usually means only my plasma rifles and railguns score reliable kills, and I never have enough of them to go around.

samiens
15-11-2011, 21:34
Yeah blood angels and not grey knights are the reason my tau army is moving from the standard hybrid list to suit (crisis and broad) spam.

I can see why armies without fire power hate grey knights but purifier spam really doesn't put that many models on the table. As for nids, when my wifes army has taken on grey knights thanks to SITW they've done pretty reasonably.

Phazael
16-11-2011, 00:10
When GK start winning half as often as SW and IG, then you can start having this discussion. Standard internet ******** aside, the cold hard fact is that in every environment where composition is irrelevant/unscored (Nova style events, Hard Boyz, ect) Wolves and Guard are still taking the majority of the wins. There are a lot of reasons for this. On the SW side, they do everything as good (or better) than anyone else and usually for less points. On the Guard side, three Manticores, some parking lot, and a blob of bubble wrap will win you games no matter how bad you roll.

Fundementally, in the age of everyone gets a 4+ cover save, GKs die just as fast to shooting as other MEQs and models with one PW swing per turn at 20 points are hardly game breaking. Its some of the elite options where things get ugly. In particular, psy ammo should have been priced by gun, rather than one upgrade for the entire model/unit. Purifiers probably should not have had cleansing flame. Crowe should have just been a guy who makes Purifiers scoring, not core troops. Crusaders should cost 20pts per model. A couple small fixes like this would really get rid of most of the legitimate griping. Of course the same thing could be said about SW and their Jaws spam, longfang spam, and amazingly good Grey Hunters, among other things, but this is a GK whining thread, so.....

d6juggernaut
16-11-2011, 00:17
Purifiers should replace Grey Hunters as the best troop in the game. A psycannon+ Halberd loadout out-shoots AND out-fights Grey Hunters of the same point value, and can take on anything short of a land raider

Surgency
16-11-2011, 07:41
too bad purifiers aren't troops, and to make them score like troops costs another 150 points and an HQ slot that would be much better used on a different HQ

Thruster
16-11-2011, 08:56
In most tournaments, i still see SW long fang/razor spam kicking GK asses all day.

Fear Itself
16-11-2011, 08:56
too bad purifiers aren't troops, and to make them score like troops costs another 150 points and an HQ slot that would be much better used on a different HQ

Yeah, it's a shame really. Ward should of cut the Grey Knights a break.

Cheeslord
16-11-2011, 11:15
Purifiers should replace Grey Hunters as the best troop in the game. A psycannon+ Halberd loadout out-shoots AND out-fights Grey Hunters of the same point value, and can take on anything short of a land raider

I don't know if purifiers can take as many psycannons as paladins, but 4 MC psycannons will penetrate a Landraider twice on average rolls. Even 2 are a realistic threat, so I contend that unless restricted to a single psycannon, they can take on a landraider...

Mark.

Phazael
16-11-2011, 15:55
Who is using using Psycannons for LR killing? I mean, I guess I am since I run mostly razorspam lists, but the Vindicare is so much better at popping them.

Anyhow, if my ******** to English dictionary is working correctly, it sounds like a lot of people here are mostly upset about the Purifiers/Crow build. I am on the fence on this one. I don't have an especially high opinion of that list build, because Crowe is basically completely worthless and ties up a valuable HQ slot. If you plop 40 Halberd Purifiers on the table, you are paying almost 29 per model including the Crowe tax. The bigger issue is when someone puts a GM down to make them scoring when needed, but that generally confines it to two units as most GK players will want that third Elite slot open for a Vindicare or Paladins. At 29 points a model, they start costing what kitted wolf guard units do and the wolf guard are clearly superior. To me, cleansing flame is the issue since it pretty much renders horde armies (who are already weak in general) helpless against them.

The only army with a legitimate complaint about psyflemen are Dark Eldar, who have no way around them. Every other army can either foot slog it or run something with AV14 to render them moot. Remember that GKs have no broad access to melta spam.

This whole complaint list reminds me of when Orks first came into their own. People complained because your standard metagame against MEQ army did not work against them and a lot of people lost to them, due to their own tactical inflexibility. In a lot of ways, the GK book is the same, especially since trying to razor/chimera spam them gets you killed, while AV14 vehicles actually fare descently. They also bypass the FnP crutch of the Blood Angels book. If there is one thing I have learned in years of this game, its that people really hate having to adapt their army to new metagame changes.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
16-11-2011, 15:58
Purifiers should replace Grey Hunters as the best troop in the game. A psycannon+ Halberd loadout out-shoots AND out-fights Grey Hunters of the same point value, and can take on anything short of a land raider

Honestly, the ability to make purifiers troops was probably the worst one in the Codex. They really are Strike Squads +1, especially with their virtually free halberds. It wouldn't have made the codex balanced, but it would have gone a long way. At the very least every comment about another army being overpowered wouldn't instantly be countered with "purifiers!".

Mike3791
16-11-2011, 16:03
So are GK as game breaking as daemons were for 7th ed Fantasy? I think not..

Inquisitor_Tolheim
16-11-2011, 16:11
So are GK as game breaking as daemons were for 7th ed Fantasy? I think not..

Wait, what?

I'm not seeing how that's really on topic. That's like arguing that your house blowing up wasn't a big deal because the detonation wasn't thermonuclear. Grey Knights are still beatable, they can still work within the confines of the game, particularly when they aren't being used by a min-maxing jerk. But they certainly are the top level force, with some poorly externally balanced choices (such as the much maligned purifiers).

And just to make it clear I'm not revising my original statements, that doesn't make other top tier armies less top tier, or less overpowered in certain match-ups.

FeralJim
22-11-2011, 01:50
Glorious thread is glorious. I came here from: http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2011/11/your-army-is-overpowered.html

That's right Chapters, your getting laughed out of town on other Blogs now.


So as a Space Wolf player I hear a lot of gripes. Grey Hunters are the best troop choice in the game, the Rune Priest is so broken, Thunderwolves are way too good, etc. etc. I've personally found these criticisms to be by and large baseless

Mate you are tripping balls here. I've only read the first page of this lulz thread and still I saw that everyones instant reaction was to say that Rune Priests, Long Fangs, Grey Hunters and S10/T5 Thunderwolves are overpowered.

That's a HQ, Heavy, Fast and Troops. And you say that GK have rigged upgrades across their whole army? the vast majority of yours is just as broken.

Their is literally no justification for why Grey Hunters trade Combat Tactics for Counterattack and then seemingly get a discount on special weapons, melee upgrades, amazing banners, and a per model discount too!

Don't even get me started on CCW/Pistols or Acute Senses.

Go to google. Type in "NOVA OPEN RESULTS" and explain to me why Space Wolves dominate the competitive scene, worldwide.

althathir
22-11-2011, 20:54
To me:
Space wolves have two 'umm...' moments , where something just feels wrong to face:
- the power and utility of rune priests, both offensive and defensive
- Grey hunters at their price with counter attack and short ranged fire power

Guard have one
- How many? I've killed 3 squads and vehicles this turn, and you don't care...

Grey knights have loads;
The force weapons all round
Purifiers- that ability is just not balanced
Psybolts- badly undercosted on all platforms
Dreadknights-
The making stuff scoring buff
For a start...

As a player who started with eldar, I have to admit valk/vendettas were a "ummm wrong" moment for me, facing an imp guard force that was just as mobile and had more fire power on the move was disheartening. To be honest its worse than the "how many" factor because I expect that.


SW's in many ways can be easily and directly equated to other SM books. In that respect, there are several units which form the core of most armies that are clearly superior to their counterparts. Grey Hunters are just as shooty (minus the heavy weapon which many C:SM players would ditch in a heartbeat for a second special or BP/CCW) and far superior in CC while being cheaper with more (and cheaper) options and while sergeants must come from an Elites unit they're signficantly cheaper with cheaper upgrades and that Elites slot is often already being taken anyway or wouldn't otherwise be filled with a different unit so little is lost. Rune Priests likewise have better powers with better wargear and more special rules than Librarians for the same cost. Long Fangs are probably the most cost effective heavy weapons unit in the game with 6 dudes sporting 5 split fire missiles for less than the cost of 5 dudes sporting 4 missile launchers that can't split fire (unless 10 strong) in other SM armies. Then there's the army-wide counterattack on top of the BP/CCW combo, which basically acts like a giant crutch and cushion against tactical errors and removes much of the decision making necessity other marine units face.


With Grey Knights, they have completely different wargear, and against many foes much of their wargear is empty points. Ork Boyz, guardsmen, etc for instance don't care about I6, powerweapons, or force weapons. GK's also often (unless utilizing Henchmen units) tend to have noticeably fewer models.

Now, this isn't to say there hasn't been a good deal of griping about GK's, but GK's are a radically different army from other marine armies. SW's basically just end up being "C:SM+1 with a discount".

I don't think they're really a C:SM +1, now I do think they have a better book, but its built differently.

Marines are more of a top down army where you base your armies around your hq, then elites, then heavy support, fill min troops, fast attack, buff troops. In a lot of ways it has more in common with 4th edition armies than fifth which considering how early it was in the fifth cycle that isn't shocking.

Wolves are pick between wolfwing, or grey hunters, then pick your choices to support them. This tends to be the way most 5th books are designed, but in my mind it makes the marine +1 analogy not make a lot of sense. The powerbase of the two books is concentrated in different areas.


You know, I'm more interested in how SWs compare to BA. As I see it, Blood Angels are kind of like "Space Marines v. 1.2", and they were also perceived as near-OP at the start. How do they compare against SWs?

In my experience they're really fun games, tournamentwise its hard to tell cause wolves tend to have a higher number of players (though not by much), but the number of players picking each army makes it hard to actually judge. Then player skill is also a factor (take nova the same player won it twice, with the wolf dex but I would think its clear that he is one hell of a toy soldier general).

They're top tier for sure though, but they aren't considered as easy to play so there isn't as many cries "cheese".


The hypocrisy in this thread is nauseating.

Vaktathi says that Space Wolves aren't allowed to be frustrated by Grey Knights, as they're "top tier". Alright, solid argument, I guess? Then he himself complains about Space Wolves, as a Guard player.

Poor joke, that is.

Really I think Vaktahi is complaining about them as a chaos player ;).

Vepr
22-11-2011, 21:12
It is rather rich seeing a SW player complaining about GK. As a nids player it is rather like facing SW = nuclear bomb and GK = Hydrogen Bomb. I guess DE would = Neutron bomb. :p

Craftworld
22-11-2011, 21:26
Glorious thread is glorious. I came here from: http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2011/11/your-army-is-overpowered.html

That's right Chapters, your getting laughed out of town on other Blogs now.

Mate you are tripping balls here. I've only read the first page of this lulz thread and still I saw that everyones instant reaction was to say that Rune Priests, Long Fangs, Grey Hunters and S10/T5 Thunderwolves are overpowered.

That's a HQ, Heavy, Fast and Troops. And you say that GK have rigged upgrades across their whole army? the vast majority of yours is just as broken.

Their is literally no justification for why Grey Hunters trade Combat Tactics for Counterattack and then seemingly get a discount on special weapons, melee upgrades, amazing banners, and a per model discount too!

Don't even get me started on CCW/Pistols or Acute Senses.

Go to google. Type in "NOVA OPEN RESULTS" and explain to me why Space Wolves dominate the competitive scene, worldwide.

If this your typical posting style, do us all a favor, and stay on your lackluster site.

logan054
22-11-2011, 21:35
Honestly, the ability to make purifiers troops was probably the worst one in the Codex. They really are Strike Squads +1, especially with their virtually free halberds.

I actually meet a guy who think the weapon costs are fine, he said they already pay for the weapons in their stats :wtf: This was during a conversation about how I should take Russel crowe instead of a GM and replace my strikes with purifiers :rolleyes:

ColShaw
22-11-2011, 21:38
I actually meet a guy who think the weapon costs are fine, he said they already pay for the weapons in their stats :wtf: This was during a conversation about how I should take Russel crowe instead of a GM and replace my strikes with purifiers :rolleyes:

Personally, I think Russell Crowe would have pretty impressive 40K stats.:shifty:

logan054
22-11-2011, 21:43
Personally, I think Russell Crowe would have pretty impressive 40K stats.:shifty:

He does, he just can't hide in units and makes purifiers troops ;)

Voss
22-11-2011, 22:09
It seems to me that GK were designed to combat daemons and C:SM, and C:SM are basicaly space marines, thats why so many marine players have trouble with them. The Xeno races have totally different units and tactics thats why they fair better against GK.

It doesn't really explain why they feel like they are tailored to kill tyranids as well, and that their anti-horde tactics are cheap, easy and effective against orks, eldar and dark eldar.

Or why their anti-warp powers screw up drop pods, jump packs and terminators.

Honestly, they feel like they are designed to win. Too good all-around, with filler to sop up the weaknesses to boot. In many ways its a more extreme version of the Space Wolf problem- models that do more for less, while everyone else has to pay a premium for what they get handed for free.

althathir
23-11-2011, 00:54
If this your typical posting style, do us all a favor, and stay on your lackluster site.

Hero's site is kinda nice, not sure who that guy was.

I actually tend to agree with chapters a bit, and not because I think wolves are overrated they are a solid top tier army (them, guard, GK, BA). But when I bring wolves againist someone I haven't played before their first response is to think I'm a jerk until they notice I avoid spamming fangs, rune priests, etc its basically like im guilty till they see my toys. My main army is eldar and there were stretches were I'd dealt with that before, but its really frustrating when you run into a WAAC player with power dex and get lit up and people's first response is but you play "x" army. I think thats the feeling he is experiencing.


It doesn't really explain why they feel like they are tailored to kill tyranids as well, and that their anti-horde tactics are cheap, easy and effective against orks, eldar and dark eldar.

Or why their anti-warp powers screw up drop pods, jump packs and terminators.

Honestly, they feel like they are designed to win. Too good all-around, with filler to sop up the weaknesses to boot. In many ways its a more extreme version of the Space Wolf problem- models that do more for less, while everyone else has to pay a premium for what they get handed for free.

I think the main problem with grey knights is that they're balanced at around 1500 points after that it just becomes really easy to cover all your bases.

Bartali
23-11-2011, 08:39
Yay, another thread where units are analyzed in isolation and the positives magnified while the negatives are overlooked, Good job Warseer.

LegionKalgar
23-11-2011, 14:43
+1

I play two armies, GK and Eldar. And i dont see how everybody is whining on GKs. Most of Eldar comeptitive builds just suck them up. And that is 4th ed codex. GK have problems also with IG, DE (assuming no dread spam). I fear, and you should to, what will GW do to next Eldar.

Fixer
23-11-2011, 14:56
For me I just imagine a bunch of struggling Space Marines of various Chapters gathered in the local pub, complaining about the Space Wolf who's been coming in every week showing off his new toys, shiny rules, incredible alcohol tolerance and being a real dick about it too.

Then one weekend the Space Wolf sidles up to the group and nudges them while they try to ignore him. "So what about those bloody Grey Knights then?"

Voss
23-11-2011, 15:04
Yay, another thread where units are analyzed in isolation and the positives magnified while the negatives are overlooked, Good job Warseer.

By all means, feel free to put the positives in context and bring up the negatives in conjunction with the overall whole.


I think the main problem with grey knights is that they're balanced at around 1500 points after that it just becomes really easy to cover all your bases.
Possibly, but I'm not sure. I think the cheap all purpose weapon loadouts still make a difference at 1500, especially against armies that are forced to specialize.

Axel
23-11-2011, 15:13
I fear, and you should to, what will GW do to next Eldar.

If the trend of GK continues (though Necrons do not support that) the Eldar will get an "autowin" button for +2 pts/model. ;)

logan054
23-11-2011, 15:33
+1

I play two armies, GK and Eldar. And i dont see how everybody is whining on GKs. Most of Eldar comeptitive builds just suck them up. And that is 4th ed codex. GK have problems also with IG, DE (assuming no dread spam). I fear, and you should to, what will GW do to next Eldar.

My mates have actually stopped moaning about Paladins now they have figure out how to deal with, the only real issue with the book is the purifiers and riflemen dreads being too cheap.

You see alot of people moan about S5 stormbolters but how often do people actually get their troops out of the pillboxes? I mean seriously even using strikes I get 20 guys in power armour at 1500pts, plenty of armies that can rip through a squad a turn. The only time I get out of transports is so I can assault and that's really only against marines/necrons. Against my mates plague marine army, if I jump out of my rhino and I haven't manage to pop his before the assault phase I know I'm going to take a bunch of a rapid fire plasma shots followed by a assault, I can't outshoot them because of feel no pain and assault are a problem because of lack of attacks, fearless and defensive grenades.

If Necrons are anything to go by then I'm sure Eldar will have a lot of options with are pretty good but are not a auto, I'm guessing several gimik builds as well.

Sqallum
23-11-2011, 20:04
As a C:SM player I kind of hate SW and GK. Trust me. It just frustrates me that I am a long time SM player and GK and SW have stupid fluff - space wolves are close combat, so they give them extremely cheap devastators... where is the logic there? :confused: GK are simply incredible ; for 2 more points they get two amazing physic powers, a FORCE WEAPON and a storm bolter. Uh..... but yeah, though you play GK, imagine being a C:SM player and playing SW, or 'nids playing SW. So, you can't really complain about GK...
Sqallum

LegionKalgar
23-11-2011, 21:06
But that what GW really is. Some armies you can fight balanced, other no balance at all. If you dont have 6 psydreads (extreeme rare composition) how you deal IG? Good luck with paladins deathstar... I think SW are more competitive all comers that GK. Although GK are more SM killable.

logan054
23-11-2011, 21:32
But that what GW really is. Some armies you can fight balanced, other no balance at all. If you dont have 6 psydreads (extreeme rare composition) how you deal IG? Good luck with paladins deathstar... I think SW are more competitive all comers that GK. Although GK are more SM killable.

Really depends on the guard build, no one seems to collect them here bar one guy who annoys me (which I haven't seen for a while), all he seems to do is go on about how I should take X special character and spam y unit (well I'm sure you can guess the net lists suggested).

You are however completely right, they are more of a marine killer, perhaps the idea was to shake up the meta abit and probably more aimed at dealing with SW than other marine lists.

orlando davion
23-11-2011, 22:05
I use the following armies
Salamanders; Tau; Orks; Tyranids; Cadian Guard; Eldar; Necron.

To put it crudely

Gk codex is a broken pile of poo. Gives all my armies issues.

Sw is a slightly smaller broken pile of poo. Not as big; still poo!

To put it in a more refined way

JOTWW & GK have made it impossible to write generic all comers lists. My armies require tailoring to fit either SW or GK.

Both are broken; GK is worse (six bullets in the head is worse than two).

Both are examples of bad codex writing.

The balance in the SW codex does not work. I see WS3 BS3 units in one build in a LR with a special character.
Otherwise all I see are Gray hunters; Long Fanngs; thunder wolfs & HQ/Elites.

Psysic powers are OP and SW has best psysic defense in the game.

Gray hunters and long fangs are massivly under costed. Factor in the cheap long fangs splitting fire in the current mech meta game and yes SW are broken.

GK are worse.

My advice to a SW player; talk to your opponent before the game and try and find out the type of game both players want.

For example if fighting tyranids volunteer not to take JOTWW at all (and please not with a comment that I do not use JOTWW because living lighting is much more broken).

You may even find that toning down your army makes for a more fun game for both players.

The key is for both players to have fun. If that stops the end result will be the games will stop.

AndrewRogue
23-11-2011, 22:18
This is a little off subject (sorry, can't do new posts yet), but I wanted to ask since I'm getting back into the game after playing just a little bit during 4th Edition.

I started with Space Wolves (back when it was a tiny supplement to the Space Marines codex). I love Space Wolves.

But I also don't want to be a total jerk. So, if its cool to ask in this topic, what exactly is it that pushes the Wolves over the top? And, to that end, what can I do to avoid making a cheese list?

althathir
23-11-2011, 23:56
This is a little off subject (sorry, can't do new posts yet), but I wanted to ask since I'm getting back into the game after playing just a little bit during 4th Edition.

I started with Space Wolves (back when it was a tiny supplement to the Space Marines codex). I love Space Wolves.

But I also don't want to be a total jerk. So, if its cool to ask in this topic, what exactly is it that pushes the Wolves over the top? And, to that end, what can I do to avoid making a cheese list?

Mainly if you avoid spamming (taking multiples) of long fangs and rune priests you'll be fine. Grey hunters are a little undercosted, so maybe mix in some blood claws if your really worried about it. I wouldn't worry about it too much most people in a store might tease you bit, but as long as your not WAAC jerk people won't care.

logan054
24-11-2011, 00:20
This is a little off subject (sorry, can't do new posts yet), but I wanted to ask since I'm getting back into the game after playing just a little bit during 4th Edition.

I started with Space Wolves (back when it was a tiny supplement to the Space Marines codex). I love Space Wolves.

But I also don't want to be a total jerk. So, if its cool to ask in this topic, what exactly is it that pushes the Wolves over the top? And, to that end, what can I do to avoid making a cheese list?



Maybe you could try something like that? not over powered, reasonably balanced and should look cool on the table.

HQ

Wolf Priest
- Terminator armour
- Wolf tooth Necklace
Total 130pts


Elite

8 Wolf Guard
2 with Combi-Weapons and Powerfist
1 with Combi-weapon and wolf claw
5 In Terminator Armour
2 with Wolf Claw and Combi-Weapon
1 with Power Fist and Combi-Weapon
1 with Power Weapon and Combi-Weapon
1 with Chainfist and Heavy Flamer
Total: 349pts

Troops

8 Grey Hunters
- Meltagun
- Wolf Standard
- Rhinos
Total 170pts

8 Grey Hunters
- Meltagun
- Wolf Standard
- Rhinos
Total 170pts


5 Grey Hunters
- Plasmagun
- Razorback
- lascannon & Twin-linked plasma gun
Total 160pts

Fast Attack

Landspeeder
- Heavy Flamer
- Multi-melta
Total 70pts

Landspeeder
- Heavy Flamer
- Multi-melta
Total 70pts


Heavy Support

5 Long Fangs
- 4 Missile Launchers
Total 115pts

Land Raider Redeemer
- Extra Armour
- Multi-Melta
Total 265pts

BTW I am not saying using the exact list but rather giving a idea of something I think is still fairly viable which wont create to much friction from other players.


My advice to a SW player; talk to your opponent before the game and try and find out the type of game both players want.

For example if fighting tyranids volunteer not to take JOTWW at all (and please not with a comment that I do not use JOTWW because living lighting is much more broken).

You may even find that toning down your army makes for a more fun game for both players.

The key is for both players to have fun. If that stops the end result will be the games will stop.

Well this actually applies to GK players, it isn't that hard to create a more enjoyable army to play against, I do it anyways, you don't need to spam units unlocked as troops via special characters, it just when you do this the game becomes very boring to play for both parties.