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Sexiest_hero
11-11-2011, 19:36
1. Steadfast/bsb/general sucks
Solution Toss deathmagic, attacks, firepower, at the BsB general.

Don't waste yourtime Purplesunning or cannonballing units who don't care. Treat the mission as "kill the Bsb/General" to win. That's pretty much what it is.

2. Flanking and movement are useless.
Solution: Flanking is used to negate attacks back. Don't waste your fast units in a suicide front charge. Movement is very Important in 8th. You have to avoid, harass and set up for a flank. Lining your army up in a direct "face off is a bad Idea.

3. Cavalry is dead.
Solution please don't send 5 dudes on horses into 100 orcs., Use the movement to get flanks rear, you may Have you delay a charge to get better position, because movement is important.

4. Random charges suck.
Solution There is a movement banner, and a reroll charges banner. Pay the points for them or don't complain when your unit stumbles and gets eaten alive.

5, But I don't wanna waste a magic banner on that.
Solution Try it out sometimes, you may like it

6. Uber spells are broken.
Solution Don't take death stars

7.Death stars are broken
Solution Take Uber spells.

8 I don't wanna change my playstyle
Solution learn to learn from/Enjoy losses


Just a few of the Major complaints I see that I think can be delt with before the "Fix Whatever thread or Whatever is broken" thread.

People simply don't seem to want to try before they start tossing "Broken around.

Jind_Singh
11-11-2011, 19:53
Sexiest Hero - you live up to your name! You are....a sexy hero, and I think I might be falling in love with you!

You're points are awesome - that is EXACTLY what the haters need to do - adapt and move on - Eighth Ed is alive and kicking, and I'm having the time of my life! In between jobs right now - my next contract starts on the 21st of November - and I basically been grabbing a game a day, sometimes two, and loving it!

Faced the Tzeentch Chosen Deathstar yesterday - and got ROCKED by the army of 3+ ward saves - who also threw nasty spells at me.

Loved it!

Because I'm going to get that sonnofa Snot on Monday in my revenge game!

Tomorrow I face a twin Steam Tank list with 40 greatswords, 2 units of knights, and a unit of crossbows - we shall see how we fare with that also.

Either way the game is wicked good - and you have similar issues as before - cheesy knobheads will remain cheesy knobheads, whiners will be whiners - but agreed - the only thing that needs to be fixed is ATTITUDE!

NUFF SAID!

Sexiest_hero
11-11-2011, 20:18
The Good ole Chosen Death star. Trashed my Vampires hard once. My beast men crushed them after My flying Doombull clotheslined The tzeentch Sorcerer lord off of his Disk. The Deathstar got slowed by my scouting shamans magic till they got flanked by the Ghorgon and rear charged by the doombull, No Parry save for you, or reform! The rest of the army, bar the Hellcannon was swamped by beasts. IDK what the heck to do about that hellcannon.

theshoveller
11-11-2011, 21:26
Where do I add my name to your charter?

Duke Ramulots
11-11-2011, 22:20
Sexiest_hero is my hero.

Ive been saying what you do in the OP for months and nobody listened, hopefully you will be better received.

catbarf
11-11-2011, 22:44
1. Kill the general? When he's in a unit of his own, screened by several large units of BSB/steadfast'ed infantry? It's very, very difficult and the formation has no significant weaknesses, and that's the problem.

2. The issue with flanking isn't that it doesn't have any advantages, it's that there are often situations when it's advantageous not to flank the enemy, or where the benefit is minimal, such as when your flanking unit is weak infantry that will just feed CR to the enemy.

3. Implying that people only think cavalry suck because they use them incompetently is an overly simplistic and unfair assumption.

4. They're unique. Having to take a specific magic banner on only a single unit just so it can act somewhat predictably does not excuse the sheer randomness of the movement as it is now. More importantly, you then can't give the unit a banner that might help it do its job.

5. 'Suck it up and deal with it'. What a brilliant tactical insight...

6. Implying that death stars' vulnerability to them is the only reason instant kill 'say goodbye to your general and his entire unit' spells are seen as broken is an overly simplistic and unfair assumption.

7. Once again, you're saying that a list has to take a single specific thing to deal with a problem with the game. Just because a single solution exists does not make it a good one.

8. Implying that people only complain because they irrationally think change is bad is an overly simplistic and unfair assumption.

I don't see any legitimate solutions here, just a combination of mocking the complaints and offering extremely specific solutions ('take magic item x') as if being shoehorned into a specific item or build just to deal with common army builds is an indication of a fair and balanced game. I really wish it were as simple as people just not playing the game 'correctly', but there's more to it than that. Players don't complain exclusively because they're bad generals or irrationally fear change (and I readily admit that there's a fair bit of both), and taking a single item or spell to deal with fairly common threats isn't a fair solution.

boli
11-11-2011, 23:35
I'm sorry but even an 8th edition novice like me is kind of thinking the moaning over steadfast is going "oh noes I can't kill hundreds of *insert cheap unit here* in one turn". elite units are elite... but they are never perfect.

Attrition as a tactic has and will be a valid tactic in warhammer as well as in real life. and you can defeat it as well as steadfast and tbh I would much prefer a concentration of units over a concentration of elite units and/or characters.

Ho Chi Minh said, in reference to the French, "You can kill ten of our men for every one we kill of yours. But even at those odds, you will lose and we will win."

I support this thread :D

Sexiest_hero
12-11-2011, 01:39
1. Kill the general? When he's in a unit of his own, screened by several large units of BSB/steadfast'ed infantry? It's very, very difficult and the formation has no significant weaknesses, and that's the problem.

I use a flying doom bull, razorgor tag teams or scouting bray shaman on razorgor chariot, with death lore. Most lvl4 generals are in the back stuffed in a unit of archers. I'm sure you can think of ways to get around troops

2. The issue with flanking isn't that it doesn't have any advantages, it's that there are often situations when it's advantageous not to flank the enemy, or where the benefit is minimal, such as when your flanking unit is weak infantry that will just feed CR to the enemy.

If it's not a good Idea to not flank, don't. March to the mage in the back.

3. Implying that people only think cavalry suck because they use them incompetently is an overly simplistic and unfair assumption.

4. They're unique. Having to take a specific magic banner on only a single unit just so it can act somewhat predictably does not excuse the sheer randomness of the movement as it is now. More importantly, you then can't give the unit a banner that might help it do its job.

You can give they unit a banner to have flaming, +1 LD, or Armor piercing. Why not try the recharge banner. Also the Banner does help it do it's job. Unless it's job is to fail charges.

5. 'Suck it up and deal with it'. What a brilliant tactical insight...

Indeed it is, When a person is saying "I don't want to take something to help me."


6. Implying that death stars' vulnerability to them is the only reason instant kill 'say goodbye to your general and his entire unit' spells are seen as broken is an overly simplistic and unfair assumption.

It helps get read of that Steadfast LD/bsb reroll You talked about hiding behind the Screens of line troops

7. Once again, you're saying that a list has to take a single specific thing to deal with a problem with the game. Just because a single solution exists does not make it a good one.

A bad solution is still a solution. I did not say it was the Only solution.

8. Implying that people only complain because they irrationally think change is bad is an overly simplistic and unfair assumption.

I don't see any legitimate solutions here, just a combination of mocking the complaints and offering extremely specific solutions ('take magic item x') as if being shoehorned into a specific item or build just to deal with common army builds is an indication of a fair and balanced game. I really wish it were as simple as people just not playing the game 'correctly', but there's more to it than that. Players don't complain exclusively because they're bad generals or irrationally fear change (and I readily admit that there's a fair bit of both), and taking a single item or spell to deal with fairly common threats isn't a fair solution.

You are still Locked into the " I can take what I want" that has never existed in warhammer. in 7th you needed two scroll caddies., and a flying march blocker or two. In 8th you need other things. In 8th you need things that tip the balance in your favor +1 movement, and charge rerolls, are some of them. Lots of things kill mages, Load up on them.

You can adapt or complain, but there are ways to mitigate the things people tend to complain about. That makes them not completely broken.

Dark Aly
12-11-2011, 01:47
I'm with you sexiest hero. 8th is fun and all new books and most older ones have all the tools needed to defeat any opponent, you just can't have them all :) tough choices are what make you become a good general. No body has ever had it all their own way.

EDIT: I am, however, firmly in the 'i can take what I want' camp. but that's because I play for fun and don't care too much about loosing as long as I can see shock and laughter accross the table. Hence my giants, squig hoppers and big(ish) cavalry units which people say suck :)

Duke Ramulots
12-11-2011, 02:07
1. Kill the general? When he's in a unit of his own, screened by several large units of BSB/steadfast'ed infantry? It's very, very difficult and the formation has no significant weaknesses, and that's the problem.

2. The issue with flanking isn't that it doesn't have any advantages, it's that there are often situations when it's advantageous not to flank the enemy, or where the benefit is minimal, such as when your flanking unit is weak infantry that will just feed CR to the enemy.

3. Implying that people only think cavalry suck because they use them incompetently is an overly simplistic and unfair assumption.

4. They're unique. Having to take a specific magic banner on only a single unit just so it can act somewhat predictably does not excuse the sheer randomness of the movement as it is now. More importantly, you then can't give the unit a banner that might help it do its job.

5. 'Suck it up and deal with it'. What a brilliant tactical insight...

6. Implying that death stars' vulnerability to them is the only reason instant kill 'say goodbye to your general and his entire unit' spells are seen as broken is an overly simplistic and unfair assumption.

7. Once again, you're saying that a list has to take a single specific thing to deal with a problem with the game. Just because a single solution exists does not make it a good one.

8. Implying that people only complain because they irrationally think change is bad is an overly simplistic and unfair assumption.

I don't see any legitimate solutions here, just a combination of mocking the complaints and offering extremely specific solutions ('take magic item x') as if being shoehorned into a specific item or build just to deal with common army builds is an indication of a fair and balanced game. I really wish it were as simple as people just not playing the game 'correctly', but there's more to it than that. Players don't complain exclusively because they're bad generals or irrationally fear change (and I readily admit that there's a fair bit of both), and taking a single item or spell to deal with fairly common threats isn't a fair solution.

1. Yes, out maneuver your opponent and engage then kill his general, it is a very valid goal in this game.

2. Of corse it's situational, your job is to try and make that situation happen.

3. No, no it isn't as any halfway compotent general can find use for fast moving elite troops.

4. If charging is important, then giving them a banner that helps them succesfully charge is helping them do their job.

5. You really should learn to deal with it.

6. The game makers gave us as players a counter to every strategy, if you intentionally dont use a tool for dealing with a tactic, dont expect the game to change to fit your wants.

7. Yes, the game is designed to force you to not neglect parts of the game. do so at your own peril. Hell, if one of my opponents was known for not feilding mages i would send him a deathstar...

8. Well that shoe seems to fit in many cases...

Lathrael
12-11-2011, 04:32
Don't waste yourtime Purplesunning or cannonballing units who don't care.

Umm... Usually purple sun is one of the most effective way to remove steadfast. Especially if you use with shadow magic ^^


2. Flanking and movement are useless.

3. Cavalry is dead.



No they are called low return investment.




6. Uber spells are broken.
Solution Don't take death stars

7.Death stars are broken
Solution Take Uber spells.


So let's take uber spells and deathstars... Well not surprising, the game already whirls around them. THAT is the actual problem. Oh if you are going to say it's rock-scissors-paper, wood elves should have been rocking around right now. But they don't :)


You are still Locked into the " I can take what I want" that has never existed in warhammer.

Much true but they had the chance when writing 8th, they fixed things broken as much as breaking the other. So we can still whine :)




The Good ole Chosen Death star. Trashed my Vampires hard once. My beast men crushed them after My flying Doombull clotheslined The tzeentch Sorcerer lord off of his Disk. The Deathstar got slowed by my scouting shamans magic till they got flanked by the Ghorgon and rear charged by the doombull, No Parry save for you, or reform! The rest of the army, bar the Hellcannon was swamped by beasts. IDK what the heck to do about that hellcannon.

Proper choosen deathstar have the sorcerer "in" the star not on the disk. If not, it's a unit you feed with cannon fodders and fool around.




Just a few of the Major complaints I see that I think can be delt with before the "Fix Whatever thread or Whatever is broken" thread.

People simply don't seem to want to try before they start tossing "Broken around.

Adapt or perish. Yes i agree but also there's no harm to point out what is wrong about game and it's called player feedback.

catbarf
12-11-2011, 04:50
Sexiest, Duke, you both seem to have missed the point. Some people say death stars are overpowered. You say use 'uber' spells. Some people say movement is too random. You say use a specific banner. Yes, in 7th it was advantageous to take a scroll caddy, but you were never forced to do it just to have a viable take-all-comers list. And the fact is, just because there is a solution to various issues in the game does not mean it is a fair or interesting solution.

Having to take a movement banner so a single unit in my entire army can act somewhat predictably is not interesting. Having to take a wizard with a particular spell just so I can deal with big units is not interesting either. Having to take a flying hero or sniper mage so I can instakill the general from behind his unbreakable screen isn't interesting in the slightest. I play Warhammer because I like being able to build a list as I want it with a variety of ways to deal with each threat. Having just one straight-up counter only encourages cookie-cutter lists and doesn't signify good game balance.

Warhammer is not supposed to be a glorified game of rock-paper-scissors. The rules are not based around certain units or choices being hard counters to others, nor about there being one specific counter for each threat. Having these elements with a very limited number of effective counters, relying more upon army composition than generalship, undermines that.

And this elitist assumption that people only hate steadfast, think cavalry are weak, see flanking and maneuver as less useful than in the previous edition, or believe 'uber' spells are overpowered solely because they're poor generals or can't deal with change is overly simplistic not to mention downright condescending.

Not once did I say that all the complaints about the new edition are justified. But what the OP says is 'The game's perfectly fine, everything's balanced, if you don't like it deal with it', with no more support, evidence, or reasoning than the complaints themselves, but with one hell of a more condescending tone. At least the people doing the complaining aren't insinuating that anyone who disagrees with them is a bad player.

Just look at #2 in the OP. The complaint we've all seen is that flanking is weaker than before and movement less important. The response? 'Flanking is important because it does some of what it used to do. Movement is important because flanking is important.' That's not addressing the complaints, that's not even offering evidence, and it's just as bereft of reasoning as the most poorly-written and vitriolic of whinging about 8th.

Now maybe if each of these points were addressed in a separate topic, acknowledging the complaints, directly comparing to the previous edition, and providing thought-out, in-depth answers to each criticism that don't require shoehorning the player's build or calling him dumb, you might be able to make a point. As it is, this thread is every bit as worthless as the threads that say 'they changed it now it sucks', because you've done nothing more than make a series of proclamations with trite and insubstantial explanation.

Duke Ramulots
12-11-2011, 05:03
Catbarf, it didnt even take me one whole game to realize how much more important flanking is in this edition. If I charge a unit of KotR into the front of a horde of white lions the least attacks im going to see come my way 12(ouch), but charge them in the flank and the most(if they are 10 wide 3 deep) is 3. Where as in 7th I would see 4(front) or 3(flank). How is that not showing a reward for tactics and propper maneuvering? Then you get the combat resolution bonus. Tell me how theres no advantage to propper tactics and maneuvering again?

Also, all games that are ballanced turn into a rock, papper, scisors game. The generalship comes from getting your papper on top of their rock and away from their scisors.

Urgat
12-11-2011, 07:22
You can also add "use the scenarios" as a fix for pretty much all the points :) If people tried and get fortitude points to actually be able to play blood and glory, and (I did say "and, not "or") have valid units for the watchtower, and enough flexibility for attack at dawn, and so on, maybe people would realize that the rules work better if you don't cherry-pick what you like and leave aside what you don't. Chess works better when you have to aim for the queen rather than try and kill more than your opponent.



Warhammer is not supposed to be a glorified game of rock-paper-scissors.
No? How do you reckon that? Warhammer has always been that. You take this to counter that. You take warmachines to counter monsters. You take ranged fire to counter elf-style fragile elite. You take big killy monsters to trash tough stuff. And so on. Problems in balance have always risen from the fact some units are made to be excellent in multiple roles, instead of excellent in a single role or merely good at those roles. Units like the Abomb that can pretty much resist everything and kill everything as long as it's not flaming (which should have been a lesser rule, but the current prevalence of regen makes it almost mandatory). Warhammer IS a glorified rock-paper-scissors game. And why not? It's a sensible concept.

Lord Solar Plexus
12-11-2011, 07:52
I prefer complaining to solutions.

Okay, just kidding. I've been saying those things since 1914...or for a long time, anyways.


1. Kill the general?


I believe that was precisely the suggested solution.



No they are called low return investment.


They are undisputably game winners.

ewar
12-11-2011, 09:28
And this elitist assumption that people only hate steadfast, think cavalry are weak, see flanking and maneuver as less useful than in the previous edition, or believe 'uber' spells are overpowered solely because they're poor generals or can't deal with change is overly simplistic not to mention downright condescending.
.


I'm sorry, but given that you list pretty much every aspect of a game of warhammer, it begs the question - why do you play?

I'm loving 8th ed now, it's the best edition for a long time. If they just change Dwellers and Final Transmutation to allow LOS then I would be in little plastic heaven.

Adapt or play something else, it'll make you happier. The OP raised valid points.



Also, all games that are ballanced turn into a rock, papper, scisors game. The generalship comes from getting your papper on top of their rock and away from their scisors.

A very eloquent turn of phrase - I completely agree.

Why people hate cav this edition I don't know - I've been getting some brilliant results with a unit of 6 Cold Ones and 1 mounted scar vet - preventing the thunderstomp of monsters is just brilliant and they make great flankers.

dobbo
12-11-2011, 09:38
All the top ranked gamers in fantasy 7th are still there in 8th, despite all the complaints about death stars and broken magic etc... This suggests that they have adapted and understand the rules better, and are generally better gamers than all rage quitters who spew bile on the interwebs.

Lathrael
12-11-2011, 09:59
They are undisputably game winners.

I would love to agree on that but what we call a game winner is usually an odd dice for a boosted spell rather than those tactical moves, this days.

theunwantedbeing
12-11-2011, 10:17
@OP
1. You mean character snipe them to negate the bonuses
Using the uber spells is often the best way to character snipe, purple sun doesn't really work very well but it's good for destroying large numbers in multiple units
2. Flanking is also used to generate a higher static combat resolution in your favour and/or to make an opponent change the direction of their unit, you don't need redirectors to do this nor is it really that difficult to set up with non-deathstar armies
3. Cavalry is just less valuable than a big horde of great weapon weilding loonies. They still do very well vs anything that cannot bypass the standard 2+ cav save, the extra random range also helps increase reliability in reaching/catching enemies
4. Or use Cavalry/things with swiftstride. Failing that, take an army that can generate additional movement for itself like Dwarves or Vampire Counts
5. See 4.
6. Or anything that will be crippled by the enemy hurling a 6 dice uber spell at you that you have no real chance to stop. There's really nothing you can about these in a lot of instances, try tweaking your army so that you aren't based around a couple of pivotal characters/units
7. Some are, it's a quirk of 7th ed rules in an 8th ed game. They all have solutions, sadly uber spells are usually the only viable ones for armies who weren't specifically built to deal with that given deathstar you are now facing
8. Never got this one personally, what is a "playstyle"?
Some things just don't work vs other things in 8th edition, it's got a lot more rock-paper-scissors than previous editions were so you really do have to alter your "playing style" somewhat.

chamelion 6
12-11-2011, 11:36
It seems to me the basis for most of the complaining is that people are still looking for that "Magic Manuever" that kills units without a proper fight. That also seems to be the kind of thing 8th edition made a point of doing away with. That's something people need to get their head around.

Modifiers are not there to allow you to position yourself so you can kill units without fighting them, they are there to give you an edge when the blood starts flying. The point of 8th edition was not just to make infantry more important, it was to make combat more important too. The days of killing units in the manuever phase is gone, and the game is better for it. Now all that manuevering can give you a serious edge in combat, but your gonna have to get in there and be willing to take some bruises and get your hands dirty to get the job done.


All the top ranked gamers in fantasy 7th are still there in 8th, despite all the complaints about death stars and broken magic etc... This suggests that they have adapted and understand the rules better, and are generally better gamers than all rage quitters who spew bile on the interwebs.

Absolutely.... That there are people that consistantly win and those that consistantly loose is absolute proof that the game is not decided by random dice rolls...

w3rm
12-11-2011, 11:37
@catbarf

So if you don't want a rock-paper-siscorss game then I guess you don't take the flaming banner to counter regeneration? You don't take warmachines to take out monsters? You don't add monsters to get more target saturation? So your army is comped of units of 10 swordsmen I'm assuming and 1 empire general.

Sorry but you do have to counter things. If you're so worried about uberspells then don't take big expensive units that scream "PURPLE SUN ME!". know theres not much you can do against dwellers against charries but that's just 1 part of the game that's really bad.

WarmbloodedLizard
12-11-2011, 11:50
I don't see any legitimate solutions here, just a combination of mocking the complaints and offering extremely specific solutions ('take magic item x') as if being shoehorned into a specific item or build just to deal with common army builds is an indication of a fair and balanced game. I really wish it were as simple as people just not playing the game 'correctly', but there's more to it than that.


completely agree.

chamelion 6
12-11-2011, 12:02
completely agree.

That specific solutions are mentioned does not imply that those are the only solutions... The point is that if you think situations through there are ways of dealing with just about anything in the game. There is no single finite build that trumps everything nor is the game a result of random die rolls.

But it plays differently and the solutions are different than the previous edition and there is no way around that. The idea that players should be able to impliment the solutions they want is no more valid in this edition than it was in the last. You have to find the options that work and learn how to use them.

rodmillard
12-11-2011, 12:31
@ Catbarf:

If you want a game without random charge range, uber-spells, or character led deathstars, where there are clear benefits for flanking an enemy unit and the game can be won (or lost) in the movement phase rather than before deployment I suggest you give Kings Of War a try.

However, since you are posting in the Warhammer section of the forum I would have thought you were interested in how people deal with these problems in THIS game...

strongbow
12-11-2011, 20:20
I think that when a new edition comes around it offers a new way of doing things. It presents a new challenge. Certain people will adapt to the changes better than others.

As always some rules won't be well received. Some things are too strong or too weak.

So what can we do about this?

Moan on the internet is not one of them.

Now, in the tournament scene all the rules must be followed. Part of the test of your tactics is being able to win even with some of the rules working against you. You have to find a way of beating it.

However, when you're playing at home and with friends you are free to do whatever you want. If you want to use 7th edition rules for charging (double movement) rather than randomised, then do it! If you want to use 7th edition rules but 8th edition magic rules then do it! There is nothing stopping any people coming up with things like that if they want to. It's your game and your hobby. A GW Swat team isn't going to burst through the window and stamp on all your models out of spite if you tweak things in the way you want to. As long as you and your opponent agree it really doesn't matter in friendly games what you do.

Adder007USA
13-11-2011, 09:31
1. Steadfast/bsb/general sucks
Solution Toss deathmagic, attacks, firepower, at the BsB general.

Don't waste yourtime Purplesunning or cannonballing units who don't care. Treat the mission as "kill the Bsb/General" to win. That's pretty much what it is.

2. Flanking and movement are useless.
Solution: Flanking is used to negate attacks back. Don't waste your fast units in a suicide front charge. Movement is very Important in 8th. You have to avoid, harass and set up for a flank. Lining your army up in a direct "face off is a bad Idea.

3. Cavalry is dead.
Solution please don't send 5 dudes on horses into 100 orcs., Use the movement to get flanks rear, you may Have you delay a charge to get better position, because movement is important.

4. Random charges suck.
Solution There is a movement banner, and a reroll charges banner. Pay the points for them or don't complain when your unit stumbles and gets eaten alive.

5, But I don't wanna waste a magic banner on that.
Solution Try it out sometimes, you may like it

6. Uber spells are broken.
Solution Don't take death stars

7.Death stars are broken
Solution Take Uber spells.

8 I don't wanna change my playstyle
Solution learn to learn from/Enjoy losses


Just a few of the Major complaints I see that I think can be delt with before the "Fix Whatever thread or Whatever is broken" thread.

People simply don't seem to want to try before they start tossing "Broken around.

The problem with these suggestions is that not all armies are able to do them, or at the very least, not in a way that's actually effective ability or points wise. Even worse, there are some armies that have a much easier time of pulling off these abilities. The question a lot of us are asking is "Well, If I'm not able to do that with my army, how am I supposed to stop it?"

1. Killing the general is great, but what about when he's sunk into the middle of a horde with all sorts of protection in addition to his Look-out-sir? And what about the rest of the army, which may include something along the lines of extremely powerful monsters (skaven and TK I'm looking at you) extremely choppy elite infantry (chaos, high elves, dark elves) or a massive gun line (Dwarf, Empire, Skaven), or a nigh unkillable general (Chaos, Darkelf)? Some armies are much better at keeping the guy alive than others, and make you pay for ignoring the rest of the army.

2. Not all armies are mobile. There's an entire army that has movement 3 across the board.

3. When the opponents army is nothing but 3 huge horde blocks, I'm not really sure where they should be sent. Yes, the sides are much safer, but with the thing being steadfast, they're not gonna break after just 1 round, even with your own horde in the front, and if there's one thing that kills cavalry it's a prolonged fight.

4. Not everyone can take this banner. I don't care about the random charges, I think it adds a little more risk/reward to the game mind you.

5. Again, not everyone can take that banner.

6. It's not just death stars that suffer from uber spells. I play both Dwarves and vampire counts. With the exception of characters, my entire dwarf army is initiative 2. That's right, they're slower than undead. My lord is initiative 4. It doesn't matter if I don't take a horde formation, Purple sun still erases my army. Dwarven magic resistance does absolutely nothing on irresistable force. In my VC army, if my general gets sniped my entire army crumbles off the board, unless every round they make leadership tests. Most of my army has less than LD 7. All it takes is the opponent to get lucky and I'm gone.

7. For vampire counts, the cheapest non general who can take an uberspell is 135 points (100 naked, 35 for the ability to take something other than necromancy), and that's without having any kind of protective gear, not even armor. We do it occasionally, but it's not cheap. And before you talk about the lord running the army, see the above point on what happens if the guy blows himself up with irresistible force.

And dwarves...uber spells...lol. Closest thing we have is runic war machines. Yes, they're long ranged. But you can't hide them inside steadfast units. They have a 1 in 6 chance of not working every turn. Enemy characters get a look-out-sir every time. And they cost just as much, if not more than a wizard from any army. All it takes is a cheap harassment unit to get into close combat, either flyers, fast cav or assasins, and they're useless.

8. It's not "I don't wanna change my playstyle". It's "I don't wanna fork out another couple hundred dollars to completely redesign my army".

If you want to give suggestions, make sure they're ones that are useful to everyone.

scarletsquig
13-11-2011, 11:42
Solution to everything:

- Use your warhammer models to play Kings of War instead.

rodmillard
13-11-2011, 12:01
I believe I already said that...

says the guy who uses his KoW models to play Warhammer :shifty:

chamelion 6
13-11-2011, 12:08
8. It's not "I don't wanna change my playstyle". It's "I don't wanna fork out another couple hundred dollars to completely redesign my army".

If you want to give suggestions, make sure they're ones that are useful to everyone.

I think the premise of the OP is valid, and his suggestions are just some of the possibilities for countering the opposition. So in the end it all boils down to this, #8.

I understand where you're coming from, but the reality is that 8th edition is a complete reboot and the basic design philosophy of the game changed. That's going to change how armies work and function. The reality is that you either change with it or accept that you're playing at a huge disadvantage. Is it realistic for things to change so massivly and yet expect the armies to not change at all? That's been a part of every change of edition and new army book to some extent.

The OP's comments are valid, there are options to make your armies competative under the new system, especially the Dwarves, but whether it's worth the monetary expense to keep your armies competative is going to be a personal decision.

It's not that the new edition is flawed, it's that you don't want to adapt to it for whatever reason.

Adder007USA
13-11-2011, 12:19
No, you definitely expect things to change. There's no question of that. There has just never been such a massive change on this scale in warhammer before. You almost never saw horde size blocks of troops in the previous editions. If you were an army that had a lot of duplicate units, then you aren't affected as badly, since all you do now is clump them up into one horde. If however, you're an army that relied on a wide variety of models to succeed, and almost every one of your 20-30 man blocks was different, you wind up with half your army not really useable, and the need to buy a ton of whatever models are the new horde maker for your army.

chamelion 6
13-11-2011, 12:44
No, you definitely expect things to change. There's no question of that. There has just never been such a massive change on this scale in warhammer before. You almost never saw horde size blocks of troops in the previous editions. If you were an army that had a lot of duplicate units, then you aren't affected as badly, since all you do now is clump them up into one horde. If however, you're an army that relied on a wide variety of models to succeed, and almost every one of your 20-30 man blocks was different, you wind up with half your army not really useable, and the need to buy a ton of whatever models are the new horde maker for your army.

My personal experience is that these armies that try to exploit the steadfast rule and lump all their assets into one or two huge units are frail. They only seem to flourish where the players opposing them do so by adopting the same tactic. Then you wind up with a table of 3 or 4 lumbering massives of infantry staring at each other.

In my army no block of infantry is larger than 30. Cav is an integral part of my strategy in defeating these huge "deathstars" when they do appear. I also use warmachines and low level wizards. So there are ways to counter these tactics without resorting to doing the same thing.

Embedding the BSB and General in one of these units is a huge point sink and limits their (the BSB & General) ability to function. You can't do that effectively without leaving other parts of your army vulnerable. You can consider your scenario and design games that force more varied army builds... In pickup games make sure you roll for the scenario and if you get Blood and Glory and the other player has one of these "deathstar" armies insist you play it through or they conceed a loss. I know that sounds like a crappy attitude, but that scenario was included to keep players from doing exactly what you're complaining about. If they're going to play and army that is designed to exploit the VP's in the game and not to provide a good and challenging game for both sides, then they should have to deal with the downside of that build too. (Personally, I just don't think I'd play someone with that kind of army, but I have the luxury of a set gaming group that doesn't go that way)

The point is that those kinds of builds start to go away when they are no longer viable and you start to really exploit their weaknesses....

yabbadabba
13-11-2011, 12:46
Personally I think this is all about mindset.

The Low King
13-11-2011, 14:26
The problem with these suggestions is that not all armies are able to do them, or at the very least, not in a way that's actually effective ability or points wise. Even worse, there are some armies that have a much easier time of pulling off these abilities. The question a lot of us are asking is "Well, If I'm not able to do that with my army, how am I supposed to stop it?"


1. Killing the general is great, but what about when he's sunk into the middle of a horde with all sorts of protection in addition to his Look-out-sir? And what about the rest of the army, which may include something along the lines of extremely powerful monsters (skaven and TK I'm looking at you) extremely choppy elite infantry (chaos, high elves, dark elves) or a massive gun line (Dwarf, Empire, Skaven), or a nigh unkillable general (Chaos, Darkelf)? Some armies are much better at keeping the guy alive than others, and make you pay for ignoring the rest of the army.

you just covered all the armies there....every army has a way of protecting their characters, every one of them also has a weakness in their characters.


2. Not all armies are mobile. There's an entire army that has movement 3 across the board.

Yet i can still flank people with my dwarfs....

Dwarf get a few runes designed to make up for exactly this. I dont need to move into the flank when i can position my units then use the master rune of challenge to force you to charge into my trap.


3. When the opponents army is nothing but 3 huge horde blocks, I'm not really sure where they should be sent. Yes, the sides are much safer, but with the thing being steadfast, they're not gonna break after just 1 round, even with your own horde in the front, and if there's one thing that kills cavalry it's a prolonged fight.

well, goblins and slaves have a hard time killing 2+ save knights so they shouldnt be a problem.... (im assuming the hordes are 60+ otherwise they wont have steadfast) Massive blocks are easy to avoid, just send the small units everywhere, split up the hordes, sacrifice units and either take a nuke spell or something with 6+ ranks...


4. Not everyone can take this banner. I don't care about the random charges, I think it adds a little more risk/reward to the game mind you.

Everyone can get a bsb....a bsb can get a magic banner....so any army can get the banner exept dwarfs who shouldnt really want it anyway.


5. Again, not everyone can take that banner.

same as above except that dwarfs can get flaming artillery and characters left right and centre.


6. It's not just death stars that suffer from uber spells. I play both Dwarves and vampire counts. With the exception of characters, my entire dwarf army is initiative 2. That's right, they're slower than undead. My lord is initiative 4. It doesn't matter if I don't take a horde formation, Purple sun still erases my army. Dwarven magic resistance does absolutely nothing on irresistable force. In my VC army, if my general gets sniped my entire army crumbles off the board, unless every round they make leadership tests. Most of my army has less than LD 7. All it takes is the opponent to get lucky and I'm gone.

so come up with a house rule that allows LOS vs nuke spells? or kill the offending wizard...or dont put your army in a nice strait battleline for a spell to roll up.

Alternatively as VC use nuke spells of your own...


7. For vampire counts, the cheapest non general who can take an uberspell is 135 points (100 naked, 35 for the ability to take something other than necromancy), and that's without having any kind of protective gear, not even armor. We do it occasionally, but it's not cheap. And before you talk about the lord running the army, see the above point on what happens if the guy blows himself up with irresistible force.

thats about as expensive as.....most other casters. When a nuke spell (as you pointed out) can kill an entire army 135points is a very solid investment.


And dwarves...uber spells...lol. Closest thing we have is runic war machines. Yes, they're long ranged. But you can't hide them inside steadfast units. They have a 1 in 6 chance of not working every turn. Enemy characters get a look-out-sir every time. And they cost just as much, if not more than a wizard from any army. All it takes is a cheap harassment unit to get into close combat, either flyers, fast cav or assasins, and they're useless.

so give them runes to reroll the artillery dice and avoid misfires and/or defend them with infantry like everyone else does.

You also dont get LOS if the rest of the unit is dead.


8. It's not "I don't wanna change my playstyle". It's "I don't wanna fork out another couple hundred dollars to completely redesign my army".

If you want to give suggestions, make sure they're ones that are useful to everyone.

Cost me 80 (whats that? 130ish dollars?) to completely redesign my dwarf army when i decided to create a strollaz list to increase unit sizes tad would cost even less.

Mirbeau
13-11-2011, 14:46
1. Steadfast/bsb/general sucks
Solution Toss deathmagic, attacks, firepower, at the BsB general.

Don't waste yourtime Purplesunning or cannonballing units who don't care. Treat the mission as "kill the Bsb/General" to win. That's pretty much what it is.

2. Flanking and movement are useless.
Solution: Flanking is used to negate attacks back. Don't waste your fast units in a suicide front charge. Movement is very Important in 8th. You have to avoid, harass and set up for a flank. Lining your army up in a direct "face off is a bad Idea.

3. Cavalry is dead.
Solution please don't send 5 dudes on horses into 100 orcs., Use the movement to get flanks rear, you may Have you delay a charge to get better position, because movement is important.

4. Random charges suck.
Solution There is a movement banner, and a reroll charges banner. Pay the points for them or don't complain when your unit stumbles and gets eaten alive.

5, But I don't wanna waste a magic banner on that.
Solution Try it out sometimes, you may like it

6. Uber spells are broken.
Solution Don't take death stars

7.Death stars are broken
Solution Take Uber spells.

8 I don't wanna change my playstyle
Solution learn to learn from/Enjoy losses


Just a few of the Major complaints I see that I think can be delt with before the "Fix Whatever thread or Whatever is broken" thread.

People simply don't seem to want to try before they start tossing "Broken around.

Ace, this should be stickied. Get creative and be positive people!

StygianBeach
13-11-2011, 15:30
Personally I think this is all about mindset.

Agree completly.

I really enjoy 8th, but would I enjoy it more if certain things were different (lazer guided canons, uber spells)..... yes...

I think certain flaws were left in 8th on purpose just to make 9th easier to market to players.

I like to complain about the game, but I also enjoy the game.

At least the OP did not imply that all 8th complainers wish for the good old days of 7th. Although I do miss Unit Strength and miscasts on double 1.

catbarf
13-11-2011, 21:30
It seems to me the basis for most of the complaining is that people are still looking for that "Magic Manuever" that kills units without a proper fight. That also seems to be the kind of thing 8th edition made a point of doing away with. That's something people need to get their head around.

Were that true, people wouldn't be complaining about magic spells that kill entire units without a proper fight. 8th edition created those.


@catbarf

So if you don't want a rock-paper-siscorss game then I guess you don't take the flaming banner to counter regeneration? You don't take warmachines to take out monsters? You don't add monsters to get more target saturation? So your army is comped of units of 10 swordsmen I'm assuming and 1 empire general.

Sorry but you do have to counter things. If you're so worried about uberspells then don't take big expensive units that scream "PURPLE SUN ME!". know theres not much you can do against dwellers against charries but that's just 1 part of the game that's really bad.

Unlike in rock-paper-scissors, I can counter most things a number of different ways. My enemy has regeneration? I can take a flaming banner, or use a flaming weapon, or circumvent the regeneration entirely through tar pits or stacked CR. Monsters? You can take war machines- or there are plenty of items that do multiple wounds, or, again, you can circumvent them entirely. Of course there are counters, but what's not fun is being told that all I have to do to beat death stars is take a particular model and only use a particular spell and that's the only way to deal with it. Warhammer has never been about having just one effective solution to any given problem, and 'just use uber spells' or 'just use this one particular magic item' or 'just snipe the general' isn't a good answer if nothing besides that one predetermined solution comes close to the same level of effectiveness.

And let me be perfectly clear: Nowhere have I indicated that I am one of those who thinks that 8th is a terrible game and there is no reason to play. I've certainly enjoyed my games of 8th, and overall most of the changes are positive. But just because you can think of a possible solution to a particular problem in the game doesn't mean it's 100% balanced and fair, nor does it mean there is no need for revision and errata.

Blowing off those concerns as people who are terrible at the game or stubbornly refuse to change is nothing but fanboyism.

chamelion 6
13-11-2011, 21:52
Were that true, people wouldn't be complaining about magic spells that kill entire units without a proper fight. 8th edition created those.



Unlike in rock-paper-scissors, I can counter most things a number of different ways. My enemy has regeneration? I can take a flaming banner, or use a flaming weapon, or circumvent the regeneration entirely through tar pits or stacked CR. Monsters? You can take war machines- or there are plenty of items that do multiple wounds, or, again, you can circumvent them entirely. Of course there are counters, but what's not fun is being told that all I have to do to beat death stars is take a particular model and only use a particular spell and that's the only way to deal with it. Warhammer has never been about having just one effective solution to any given problem, and 'just use uber spells' or 'just use this one particular magic item' or 'just snipe the general' isn't a good answer if nothing besides that one predetermined solution comes close to the same level of effectiveness.

And let me be perfectly clear: Nowhere have I indicated that I am one of those who thinks that 8th is a terrible game and there is no reason to play. I've certainly enjoyed my games of 8th, and overall most of the changes are positive. But just because you can think of a possible solution to a particular problem in the game doesn't mean it's 100% balanced and fair, nor does it mean there is no need for revision and errata.

Blowing off those concerns as people who are terrible at the game or stubbornly refuse to change is nothing but fanboyism.

The difference between the "Magic Manuever" I spoke of and Magic in the game is the manuever works all the time everytime and is always available, get a flank charge and kill the unit... Magic, on the other hand is far too unpredictable and erratic to build your whole strategy around.

And I, at least am not implying that you're a bad person for disagreeing with me or that 8th edition is without flaws. But what you're unhappy with here is something I think is one of the huge strengths of the new edition. It's one of the things I like most about the new edition.

We've already mentioned weaknesses in the VP system and I have a whole pile of issue with many of the shooting mechanics, but those arent the topic here. So it's just as unfair to assume that those defending Steadfast are simply "fanboys."

blood_beast
13-11-2011, 21:53
But until those revisions and errata, surely it's better to try and find solutions (like the one's listed in this thread) and still enjoy playing the game?

Wouldn't it be satisfying if you were a player who HATES steadfast, and you still found a way to beat it?

I believe the threadstarter's point was more "find a solution instead of internet whinging", rather than "these are the only solutions to this problem".

catbarf
13-11-2011, 22:01
The difference between the "Magic Manuever" I spoke of and Magic in the game is the manuever works all the time everytime and is always available, get a flank charge and kill the unit... Magic, on the other hand is far too unpredictable and erratic to build your whole strategy around.

I don't see how flanking is any more reliable- you're not guaranteed to get the flank charge, and even if you do, the advantage is not enough to turn a 50/50 shot with a front charge into a guaranteed win with a flank charge. Unless your flanking unit is powerful enough to actually wipe out the enemy on the charge, if they're steadfast or in BSB range they probably aren't going anywhere.


And I, at least am not implying that you're a bad person for disagreeing with me or that 8th edition is without flaws. But what you're unhappy with here is something I think is one of the huge strengths of the new edition. It's one of the things I like most about the new edition.

What part specifically? I'm fine with units countering others instead of having units that just do everything, what I don't like is having so few options for building an 'effective' army that I end up with a cookie-cutter list that must incorporate x, y, and z so it can deal with a, b, and c. I play miniatures games as opposed to board wargames or computer games because I like the flexibility in the armies. Having a limited number of options undercuts that.


We've already mentioned weaknesses in the VP system and I have a whole pile of issue with many of the shooting mechanics, but those arent the topic here. So it's just as unfair to assume that those defending Steadfast are simply "fanboys."

I don't think anyone simply defending the way the game is now is a fanboy, I think fanboyism is telling me that I'm a bad player because I don't think the game is perfect as-is.

catbarf
13-11-2011, 22:05
I believe the threadstarter's point was more "find a solution instead of internet whinging"

And as I said on the previous page, I think that's a great sentiment, and if detailed thought were put into each of these issues we could probably collectively come up with some effective, in-depth analyses and solutions. But things like this:


6. Uber spells are broken.
Solution Don't take death stars

7.Death stars are broken
Solution Take Uber spells.

are so utterly useless and completely beside the point. And things like this:


8 I don't wanna change my playstyle
Solution learn to learn from/Enjoy losses

People simply don't seem to want to try before they start tossing "Broken around.

are just annoying and condescending.

blood_beast
13-11-2011, 22:16
Hmmm I guess he was a little brief and possibly it could come off as condescending. But it's just funny that this thread has, as its basic premise, an extremely valid point but because the OP didn't present point without being rude, the whole conversation has stagnated into attacking him for presenting some specific, effective solutions.

So let's continue in a positive manner - using the original list of "complaints" about 8th ed, what solutions can we come up with?

chamelion 6
13-11-2011, 22:27
I don't see how flanking is any more reliable- you're not guaranteed to get the flank charge, and even if you do, the advantage is not enough to turn a 50/50 shot with a front charge into a guaranteed win with a flank charge. Unless your flanking unit is powerful enough to actually wipe out the enemy on the charge, if they're steadfast or in BSB range they probably aren't going anywhere.

Just because you win the combat doesn't mean the enemy flees. That is exactly the point. Winning means you are going to stand, loosing means you might flee, you risk loosing the ground. Loosing means you roll. If the enemy doesn't flee from your win, it means he's still not morally defeated. You've hurt him, but he's still got some fight and you're gonna have to hurt him some more. Some enemies are much more resiliant to panic and breaking and they don't run easily even when the bodies are piling up. Killing models is the act of breaking that resolve...



What part specifically? I'm fine with units countering others instead of having units that just do everything, what I don't like is having so few options for building an 'effective' army that I end up with a cookie-cutter list that must incorporate x, y, and z so it can deal with a, b, and c. I play miniatures games as opposed to board wargames or computer games because I like the flexibility in the armies. Having a limited number of options undercuts that.

My experience is that armies are just as flexible as they were, and in many ways they are more flexible. I don't see limited options, but I'll admit I don't play every army available... The options listed are some sjggestions but not the only options available. I've never used some of the options suggested here... I also build my Empire army around spearmen, against the general wisdom, because I think they look more authentic than blocks of halberdiers. The trick was to find ways to force the game to play to their strengths... So I guess my playstyle is a bit unorthodox, but it works for me most of the time. Sometimes you have to really dig for those solutions, but the reward is finding something that works for you even when the general opinion is that it won't work. That's why I don't really buy into mathhammer.


I don't think anyone simply defending the way the game is now is a fanboy, I think fanboyism is telling me that I'm a bad player because I don't think the game is perfect as-is.

I don't think the game is perfect either, but I admit that I never liked the mechanics or the way 7th worked at all and a big part of that was the fact that too much of the game was tied up in the movement phase and I never liked any kind of auto-break mechanic. The revamp of the combat system, the fact that you actually have to fight a unit to break it, and the removing of auto-break from Fear pursuaded me to buy a whold new army and get involved in 8th after having soldd all my fantasy stuff.

catbarf
13-11-2011, 23:47
but because the OP didn't present point without being rude, the whole conversation has stagnated into attacking him for presenting some specific, effective solutions.

So let's continue in a positive manner - using the original list of "complaints" about 8th ed, what solutions can we come up with?

It's not just that, it's that a single line telling you to use X isn't much of a solution. There's enough complexity at play here that each issue is individually worth a thread.


Just because you win the combat doesn't mean the enemy flees. That is exactly the point. Winning means you are going to stand, loosing means you might flee, you risk loosing the ground. Loosing means you roll. If the enemy doesn't flee from your win, it means he's still not morally defeated. You've hurt him, but he's still got some fight and you're gonna have to hurt him some more. Some enemies are much more resiliant to panic and breaking and they don't run easily even when the bodies are piling up. Killing models is the act of breaking that resolve...

Well, that's what I'm saying, since the focus is on killing the enemy instead of inflicting damage to morale, it doesn't matter as much which side you attack from since you still have the same offensive power either way. Flank attacks do reduce the enemy's fighting ability in the first round of combat, but then they're just fine. It's very hard to effectively use cavalry in their intended role of shock assault, since infantry are much better suited to this meat grinder kind of gameplay. That's what I think is the issue.

chamelion 6
14-11-2011, 00:07
Well, that's what I'm saying, since the focus is on killing the enemy instead of inflicting damage to morale, it doesn't matter as much which side you attack from since you still have the same offensive power either way. Flank attacks do reduce the enemy's fighting ability in the first round of combat, but then they're just fine. It's very hard to effectively use cavalry in their intended role of shock assault, since infantry are much better suited to this meat grinder kind of gameplay. That's what I think is the issue.

Killing the enemy is the method of defeating their morale. The two are inserperable. You have to kill them to break them and that's why all the mods for flank and rear are important.

But how are the enemy fine after the first round? Once you have them where you want them you keep applying the pressure till they break.

Asi I said earlier, I use cav in my army as a shock troop, but it now has to be supported. I can't go it alone. They can be used to pin a unit or to slam a unit that is already pinned. Hopefully the latter... Timing, support, and coordination...

Lord Solar Plexus
14-11-2011, 07:20
The problem with these suggestions is that not all armies are able to do them, or at the very least, not in a way that's actually effective ability or points wise.


Very true, but we've got to start somewhere, don't we?



1. Killing the general is great, but what about when he's sunk into the middle of a horde with all sorts of protection in addition to his Look-out-sir? And what about the rest of the army, which may include something along the lines of extremely powerful monsters (skaven and TK I'm looking at you) extremely choppy elite infantry (chaos, high elves, dark elves) or a massive gun line (Dwarf, Empire, Skaven), or a nigh unkillable general (Chaos, Darkelf)?


If the General is overly well protected, such as a reverse ward save DE Lord, then one obviously has to look for other solutions. It's trivial to point out that not everything works all the time.

However, a large percentage of Generals will be found at the centre of any formed army. Those Skaven monsters on the flank will often not be within range of his bubble, even if it is extended to 18", and even more elements won't be within the 12" of the BSB. Spending 150 points on their protection is a good idea but it's also one monster less.

Chaos on the other hand does neither crumble nor do they need steadfast as much as other factions. The General might still be a combat or magic beast but killing him will not crush the opposition as is the case with Skaven or Vampires.



2. Not all armies are mobile. There's an entire army that has movement 3 across the board.


Quite so. As has been pointed out, runes ameliorate this problem somewhat. Dwarf shooting does make up for it as well I hazard.



3. When the opponents army is nothing but 3 huge horde blocks, I'm not really sure where they should be sent. Yes, the sides are much safer, but with the thing being steadfast, they're not gonna break after just 1 round, even with your own horde in the front, and if there's one thing that kills cavalry it's a prolonged fight.


Not sure about that. Empire for example has Great Weapon cavalry that seems well suited to such a task. Also, a combo-charge of cavalry in the flank and your own infantry to the front is likely to take away steadfast of nearly every unit out there barring the 100 2-point model ones.

If this does not work for you, may I suggest that you try to charge with a bus instead of a horde to the front? This should nearly always guarantee that you have more ranks. You still need to work towards good matchups so that you actually win the fight but that goes without saying.



6. It's not just death stars that suffer from uber spells.


Agreed. There should be strong spells but none that erase whole flanks.



8. It's not "I don't wanna change my playstyle". It's "I don't wanna fork out another couple hundred dollars to completely redesign my army".


Again, I'm on your side on this one. I do realize that this is exactly what the company wants, and realize that it works with many players who don't know what to do with all their money, or players who aren't married. :)

The only halfway plausible, if not entirely satisfactory solutions are ebay, Christmas, and patience.

popisdead
17-11-2011, 19:34
Sounds like you are asking people do adapt and learn how to play a new game rather than complain?

Don't you know the motto: "change baaaaaad!" ;-)

WarmbloodedLizard
17-11-2011, 20:03
Sounds like you are asking people do adapt and learn how to play a new game rather than complain?

Don't you know the motto: "change baaaaaad!" ;-)

always nice to see the blatant misrepresentation and simplification ;)

Mercules
18-11-2011, 15:03
completely agree.


always nice to see the blatant misrepresentation and simplification ;)

Yes, your addition to the thread has been so profound. :angel:


While the OP was brief in his "Solutions" and a bit flippant in delivering them, he has a point. There are solutions to some of the complaints about 8th Edition. Some of them really are that easy.

Uber Magic spells that erase large units - MMU style of play, Multiple Medium Units. I've had good success with this having a Pit of Shades all but eliminate a unit(only the Champ and Character survived) only to hammer them with my other units and win the game. This is with an Ogre Army which is very vulnerable to Pit of Shades.

"But how does MMU beat a Hordestar?"

Massive units - Flank charges are your friend here. Anything that lets you out deploy/maneuver the larger units is good and this begins with terrain. If you are using a placing method then make sure the gaps are just big enough for you and not big enough for him to fit through. Cheap Drops and multiple units lets you line up runs at that large unit's flanks.

"But they just reform and kill you next turn anyway, right?"
No, because you don't just charge in one unit, you charge in several units on as many sides as you can manage. Alternately you charge a smaller unit into the flank while moving up a more dangerous unit to the front. At that point he can turn and decimate the flanking unit with a reform, but unless he kills it or breaks it he is looking at a flank charge from a more dangerous unit to his new flank. Example, 7 Bulls into the flank who will win the first turn of combat, and if granted the Stubborn buff should survive and tie them up the second turn even if they reform and Ironguts/Mournfang waiting to charge.