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fracas
17-04-2006, 12:37
Just curious. If all you play are "body count" games, or even "king of the hill"/capture the objective games, it can get dull. Thus it occurred to me to perhaps include civilians in the game. Unlike objectives, they could be kill destroyed, and they can also move around. I realize that it ought to be scenario specific but think about it, you could play rescue/defend/capture/enslave/turn colonists.

Should there be civilian models in the game?
If so, how would you set up their rules?

Lostanddamned
17-04-2006, 12:38
I belive that I read somewhere that FW were making some, but I could be mistaken so dont hold me against this.

ArtificerArmour
17-04-2006, 12:43
Roll a 2D6 and scatter die per turn, that's how I'd do it.

BaronDG
17-04-2006, 12:58
I would love some civilians, to paint, if not to play with. It gives a more "real" feel (at least suspend disbelief) to the world and that can only be good, right?

grimsnagga
17-04-2006, 13:27
Specialist games' Mordhiem range recently released the Frenzied Mob of 20 townsfolk. While they are for the Mordhiem/Warhammer Fantasy setting, I was thinking that they would work fine as 40K civilians with some minimal conversion. While I do think the huddled masses of humanity will generally try avoid battlefields, even in the 40K universe, I think they would very appropriate for a cityfight campaign.

Edit: On the topic of rules for civilians, I think IG conscripts with no save and armed only with a close combat weapon, would be appropriate for a stat-line if they need one. I agree with ArtificerArmour about having them "scatter" 2d6" per turn... maybe have them move in small groups (say 1-3 models).

Col. Dash
17-04-2006, 14:21
Heheh, while its not a civilian per say, its movement rules could be adapted for use as civilians. Every now and then we have a piece of a shelving unit that looks like a metal shark fin when stood on end. We call it the land shark and at the beginning of each players turn we roll a d6 and a scatter dice to figure out where and how far it goes. If it hits troops, the unit takes a wound and has to roll an armor save. Nothing major but it adds some randomness to the game.

MadJackMcJack
17-04-2006, 15:51
How about a scenario where a defender has to hold out against a larger attack force to give the civvies time to evacuate. The civvies would retreat to a number of points that could represent transports, but the attackers could gun them down or take out the transports. Sort of like that picture in the Tau codex with Tau civvies getting into a transport while Fire Warriors hold back the Imperial forces. http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/tau/wallpapers/images/wp-art-10-1024.jpg

BloodRaven
17-04-2006, 16:19
Heheh, while its not a civilian per say, its movement rules could be adapted for use as civilians. Every now and then we have a piece of a shelving unit that looks like a metal shark fin when stood on end. We call it the land shark and at the beginning of each players turn we roll a d6 and a scatter dice to figure out where and how far it goes. If it hits troops, the unit takes a wound and has to roll an armor save. Nothing major but it adds some randomness to the game.

You dont happen to have played Armed and Dangerous, have you?

senban
17-04-2006, 16:48
Or you could have an Imperial city going about it's day to day buisness when suddenly a Deathwatch Killteam charges through them. "Whats going on?" a frightend child asks as they dissapear round a corner, suddenly gunfire erupts and alien screams pierce the air. And then there were genstealers everywhere...:eek:

Chem-Dog
17-04-2006, 17:22
How about having Civillian groups as objectives with friendlies trying to keep them alive and enemies trying to wipe them out, they move D6" away from the closest enemy unit (well they aren't likely to run TOWARDS tyranids to escap the marines are they?) and if engaged in combat will automaticaly loose the combat (even if they actually won it) and automattically flee .
The Civilians stats Ws2 Bs2 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld6 Sv-
The Unit may be joined by any friendly Unit or Independant character (so long as he is allowed to join a unit) and may move normally when they have joined them.
Any civillian mob that survives the battle OR makes it off of a friendly table edge counts as a held objective, any that is wiped out or in combat at the end of the game is held by the enemy.

If your army contains Preachers or Inquisitorial Henchmen (Not Servitors, Familiars or Penitents) these may be nominated to leave their unit and lead Civillians to safety.

EVIL INC
17-04-2006, 18:28
They used to make civilian type models for the fantasy range. They simply did not sell very well. Methinks they would sell even worse in the 40k range. Using them is a good idea for adding a variety to your "for-fun" games. I would suggest converting or using less expensive models made by a different company if you want to use them regulerly. If you are just wanting to try them out, I would suggest just using unpainted models or use models from other armies that are being used if you have them handy.

Jimbobjeff
17-04-2006, 18:43
You could always use Empire militia models ( clip off the weapons...)

hallon_apl
17-04-2006, 19:04
Like the idea! :)
"Run, Peasant! Run!"

Actually I was thinking of modelling-painting up a batch of citizens with some sort of firearms and using them as concripts (or rather civilians fighting for their home world) in my IG (actually PDF) army.

TheSonOfAbbadon
17-04-2006, 19:34
Personally I would use the Grot rules for civillians.

I mean, they're only CIVILLIANS, Guardsmen have trained for years and eaten a specially made diet to get to how strong they are!

I would also have civillians take a leadership test everytime they move within 6" of enemy troops, if they fail they move back to where they were at the start of the turn.

Easy E
17-04-2006, 23:57
I have used civilians in a few scenario games:

In one they moved randomly and the freindlies had to reduce the casualties from hostiles. Points were scored per group of civilians saved/destroyed at the end of the battle. Civilian units recycled as they left the board/killed at random buildings.

The second scenario involved a predeployed unit of 10 civilians located within a building with 500 points of troops stationed near it for protection. The attackers 2000 pt army was then deployed to attack as normal. The remaining defenders began in reserves and would deploy as normal. The mission was to defend the civilains from the attackers. Other concerns were secondary.

Psycho_Laughs
18-04-2006, 02:27
i would give them 2s all across for stats.
ws 2 bs 2 s 2 t 2 i 2 w 1 a 1 ld 5 sv -
no weapons.
3s are for you average human fighter, i don't think a civilian would be anywhere near as tough as a guardsmen.
generate a random number of them at the beginning of each player turn (2d6?) deployed with the deep strike rules but making them always scatter even when hitting (use the arrow thiny on top of the hit sighn). whenever a player unit is in line of sight of the group of civilians have them either move towards (if friendly) or away (if enemy) at random (1d6?).

dang, now i want to model some civilians...

Farseer Yzar
18-04-2006, 02:41
Civilians would essentially be, unarmed, unprotected, scaredy cat- conscripts. Most likely somthing like

WS2 BS2 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld 5. This would of course be on average. you might want to even generate some civilians randomly (roll a D3 for Ws, Bs, S, T and I)

Krusk
18-04-2006, 02:52
to represent cripples. children, & old man Whitaker I imagine? one stat being 1 is just crap, to say nothing of several :)

Theadium
18-04-2006, 03:01
This is a really neat idea. Give them an odd stat-line, play a scenario where the citizens are in a corner and the defenders have to save them, and can deploy like 1/4 of their points with them. Then the attackers have to kill the civilians, and then... in all the movies, theres always that stupid civilian that pulls the grenade and throws it, so you could make an crazy civilian/protester in each squad. Like you have to roll a leadership, and on 2 6's one civilian goes crazy and blows the squad up, and on 2 1's one civilian grabs a grenade and starts running towards the enemy. Give him like 3 wounds and feel no pain, because they never get killed. Then you have to like roll a die, on a 1-3, he throws the grenade and it scatters and you ahve to wound, on a 4-6 he runs it up and you place the blast on his head, and all models under the template are wounded. You could have alot of fun with the psychological effects of war with civilians.

I would really like to do a scenario like that, that would be amazing.

the_crazy_russian
18-04-2006, 03:20
I'd actually written up a scenario to do with civilians before. The statline is as a conscript, perhaps even dropping them to WS1 would be appropriate to represent their far-below-average fighting ability. The movement I used was as per sentries or brute squads in kill team. Players dice off for each mob or individual, depending on how many there are, and the winner moves them/him the dice roll in any direction. Owning player gets +1 if there are any enemy models within 12" (they are more likely to run FROM the enemy after all!). If any friendlies get into base to base contact with them, they stop panicking, at least until said friendlies are wiped out or flee. Imperial Preachers, Hierophants, Chaplains etc. have the same calming effect on any civilians within 6" of them.

As to a scenario, there is a 'Supply Run' scenario somewhere on the GW site, though I can't say exactly where. It gives a statline for supply crawlers that have gotta get some vital stores and make it back to base. In essence they are a Land Raider with a transport capacity of 15, rough terrain modifications and no lascannons or Machine Spirit. Perhaps these same crawlers could be used to evacuate the civies, with the difference that you needn't catch the supplies first.

emperorattack
18-04-2006, 03:58
Just wondering HOW would 40k citizens look

Todd
18-04-2006, 04:28
How they look would really depend on the type of planet they're from. In the 40k universe you have a huge range of cultures and tech levels and many of them can be represented by models from other GW ranges (medieval worlds=converted bretonian/empire models, feral/deathworlds= chaos marauders/ogres, urban/hive/forgeworld= necromunda gangers/inquisitorial retinue models). A fun scenario might involve evacuating valuable personel (cogitors/lexmechanisc/astropaths) and equipment (servitors and droid type things) from an Adeptus mechanicus outpost. I'm sure someone in your gaming group would have sufficient models and this would be a way to keep with the futuristic setting without too much conversion.

bugbait_nz
18-04-2006, 05:27
There is this idea that uses Zombies, much more fun to shoot up EVERYTHING!!

ZombieSlaughter Link (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21120&page=2)

Bugbait out.

Bookwrak
18-04-2006, 09:42
I've seen a couple games where 'save' the civies type special scenario was used, and it really went poorly for the guy who had to save them (the victory conditions were poorly thought out anyway, not to mention placement). One basilisk indirect, and one LR, and all the civies were dead (IG attacker scored first turn, civies were in the middle of the board).

Darkseer
18-04-2006, 09:48
Indirect fire = dead civvies.

Chem-Dog
18-04-2006, 09:57
As far as I am concerned Ws/Bs 2 represents an untrained human, dropping it to 1 isn't necessary.

The Frateris Militia are quite good for armed civilians or, with a little careful consideration and snipping, unarmed civillians.one (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=9947010802301&orignav=9), two (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=9947010802302&orignav=9), three (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=9947010802303&orignav=9), four (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=9947010802304&orignav=9).

Models from Necromunda and Mordheim may well be useful, a Bretonnian enchantress might make a good female civilian.

Adept
18-04-2006, 11:40
As far as I am concerned Ws/Bs 2 represents an untrained human, dropping it to 1 isn't necessary.

Yeah, but a fleeing panicked civilian is another matter altogether.

Frankly, I'd just give them T3 and 1W. If engaged in combat, the 'unit' dies, and they automatically fail any leadership tests they are required to make.

The problem with any 'save the civvies' scenarios is that if they end up in LOS for any reason, the defender loses. It's a cool concept, but it'd need to be implemented in another way.

Sai-Lauren
18-04-2006, 12:53
The problem with any 'save the civvies' scenarios is that if they end up in LOS for any reason, the defender loses. It's a cool concept, but it'd need to be implemented in another way.
Well, they really need to be smaller games, Kill team level or maybe a raid of up to 750 points at most.

vipertaja
18-04-2006, 13:17
How about a kill team mission to save hostages?

Adept
18-04-2006, 15:54
How about a kill team mission to save hostages?

Nice. And you could include that Goldeneye element, where the bad guys execute the hostages if they detect you soon enough.

vipertaja
18-04-2006, 16:06
Nice. And you could include that Goldeneye element, where the bad guys execute the hostages if they detect you soon enough.

And/or the boss could have the doomsday thingie and blow it all up if he isn't taken out early enough.

the_crazy_russian
18-04-2006, 21:34
A way to resolve the problem with the civvies getting shot up too quick is to make the mobs come back after they die and making the victory conditions that you need to save X number of civvies in six turns. That would more or less even things out.