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View Full Version : Will GW nerf another army ever again?



Glenn87
12-11-2011, 21:52
Just wondering, GW just scraped the Dogs of War, and the Chaos Dwarfs. Both had an army book several editions ago, and got revised in Raveging Hordes and stuff, but have been totally scraped ever since.

It's a real shame for the people who bought those models back then.
I know FW has the new CD army list, but that's not really GW released.


This just made me wonder, will they ever 'nerf/scrap' another army like that?
I'm thinking of stuff like Brettonia or Wood Elves who have been ignored for a full edition.

Eddie Chaos
12-11-2011, 21:59
much as it pains me to think about it I really could see the wood elves being dropped (merged with the high elves?) in the future.

Glenn87
12-11-2011, 22:02
much as it pains me to think about it I really could see the wood elves being dropped (merged with the high elves?) in the future.

Yeah, that would really suck for people who've spend time and money, buying and painting Wood Elves.

I've got some DoW myself, and I LOVE the models, and the idea behind them (separate army, I understand they can't let you field them as Rares anymore). but the models are of NO use to me (except for the Mengil's Manflayers as DE Shades).

TheOneHawk
12-11-2011, 22:03
Didn't they just redo the WE treeman? I doubt they'd make a model for an army they're dropping.

Glenn87
12-11-2011, 22:10
Didn't they just redo the WE treeman? I doubt they'd make a model for an army they're dropping.

they made him resin...Not a new model if I'm right.

And they made DOW at LEAST untill 2003 (I believe that was when Mengil's Manflayers came out). and released Ravaging Hordes that year. A few years later, and they were never heard of again.

yabbadabba
12-11-2011, 22:11
GW will drop any army they can't justify the sales on, or that has a problem with IP protection.
What GW does, and what we do as a community, are not mutually dependent to be honest. If GW drop Wood Elves, for instance, it would be nice to see the community rally and sort it out, rather than set up a Squat-like eternal whinge.

Glenn87
12-11-2011, 22:16
GW will drop any army they can't justify the sales on, or that has a problem with IP protection.
What GW does, and what we do as a community, are not mutually dependent to be honest. If GW drop Wood Elves, for instance, it would be nice to see the community rally and sort it out, rather than set up a Squat-like eternal whinge.

Would be nice, but that's never going to happen.
If they would drop Wood Elves (just as an example), then most Wood Elf Players will be mad. Some will just not care and pick up another army. A few other players will rant on GW out of sympathy. But most people won't even bother.

zerodemon
12-11-2011, 22:19
No they won't. They just won't update them for years until demand grows on them again.

yabbadabba
12-11-2011, 22:21
Would be nice, but that's never going to happen.
If they would drop Wood Elves (just as an example), then most Wood Elf Players will be mad. Some will just not care and pick up another army. A few other players will rant on GW out of sympathy. But most people won't even bother. Thing is GW will have already thought about all that then taken the decision, but they'll still get slammed for it.

GW make some bloody daft decisions on somethings, but anything to do with IP etc is very carefully considered, with all the ramifications taken into account.

The Low King
12-11-2011, 22:30
nerf maybe, scrap no.

With the new whatever its called book out the chaos dwarfs are legal again (they were never really scrapped, just not balanced out). Ive also seen a rumour of new armies out for the smaller nations (dogs of war esque).

They wont scrap an army so long as they make money from it.

Glenn87
12-11-2011, 22:35
Thing is GW will have already thought about all that then taken the decision, but they'll still get slammed for it.

GW make some bloody daft decisions on somethings, but anything to do with IP etc is very carefully considered, with all the ramifications taken into account.

what do you mean by IP??

RanaldLoec
12-11-2011, 22:39
Chaos dwarfs never head an official army book just a collection of white dwarf articles shoved into a book.

Dogs of War was the most recent addition army wise a creation of the old allies 25% allotment from 5th ed that didn't fit in with GW's vision of warhammer in late 6th ed into 7th so it was dropped.

Woodelves have been around longer and are a well established army I very much doubt they will disappear like either of the other two.

RanaldLoec
12-11-2011, 22:40
what do you mean by IP??

Intellectual Property

Korraz
12-11-2011, 22:58
Nerf means lowering the power of an army, not removing it.

GW won't scratch an army if they can help it. But if something proves to be an unsalvagable liability...

Eddie Chaos
13-11-2011, 00:02
Didn't they just redo the WE treeman? I doubt they'd make a model for an army they're dropping.

I don't mean soon just one day, maybe.

Treemen would slide straight into the high elf list if they wanted to.

Lord Solar Plexus
13-11-2011, 07:24
If GW drop Wood Elves, for instance, it would be nice to see the community rally and sort it out, rather than set up a Squat-like eternal whinge.

Yeah, like peace on earth.

Duke Ramulots
13-11-2011, 09:16
If all the Orcs and Goblins belong in the same book than so do the Wood elves and High elves.

Anardakil
13-11-2011, 09:37
If all the Orcs and Goblins belong in the same book than so do the Wood elves and High elves.

That's just silly. In that case they should merge Brets and Empire because they're human, and chaos dwarfs and dwarfs, and Tomb Kings and VC and so on.

Not gonna happen.

Wood Elves aren't even allied with anyone and their culture, army and the army's actual gameplay are completely different to the high elves'.

Also why would they drop WE just because it's taking a long time for them to update them? Dark Eldar players had to wait for about 12 years for their last update. It's a ridiculously long time but they were evidently updated.

Spider-pope
13-11-2011, 09:47
I would say the success of the Dark Eldar redo makes it more unlikely that Wood Elves will be dropped, not that it was particularly likely to begin with. If they were going to drop them, they wouldnt have bothered releasing their last armies book and kept them as a White Dwarf list.

Dark Eldar have shown that a marginal army with few players can be completely turned round into one of their best sellers with a concentrated effort. From all accounts Necrons are proving this correct with their release.

Novrain
13-11-2011, 09:48
Yeah, like peace on earth.

Or, you know, like the EPIC community has done....

Glenn87
13-11-2011, 10:00
Chaos dwarfs never head an official army book just a collection of white dwarf articles shoved into a book.

Dogs of War was the most recent addition army wise a creation of the old allies 25% allotment from 5th ed that didn't fit in with GW's vision of warhammer in late 6th ed into 7th so it was dropped.

Woodelves have been around longer and are a well established army I very much doubt they will disappear like either of the other two.

Actually they did have one (a long time ago).
these are the army books per edition:

4th Edition
* High Elves
* Skaven
* Chaos Dwarfs (here's theirs)
* Chaos
* Undead
* Orcs and Goblins
* Wood Elves
* The Empire
* Dark Elves
* Dwarfs

5th Edition
* Bretonnia
* Lizardmen
* High Elves
* Realm of Chaos
* Champions of Chaos
* Dogs of War (here's theirs)
* Vampire Counts

6th Edition
* The Empire
* Orcs and Goblins
* Dwarfs
* Dark Elves
* Vampire Counts
* Tomb Kings
* High Elves
* Hordes of Chaos
* Skaven
* Beasts of Chaos
* Lizardmen
* Brettonia
* Ogre Kingdoms
* Wood Elves

7th Edition
* Dwarfs
* The Empire
* Orcs and Goblins
* High Elves
* Deamons of Chaos
* Warriors of Chaos
* Vampire Counts
* Dark Elves
* Lizardmen
* Skaven
* Beastmen

8th Edition
* Orcs and Goblins
* Tomb Kings
* Ogre Kingdoms


So CD and DoW DID have an army book once, but it hasn't been redone. From the first army books, they split Undead up into Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings, and split Chaos into Deamons, Beastmen and Warriors.

yabbadabba
13-11-2011, 10:05
Glenn87 - the Chaos Dwarf army book was presented as a "White Dwarf Presents" and was in a different format to the other army lists. That and Ravening Hordes are the only book support CD have had since 4th Ed. That doesn't mean their book was not official, but it was different.

Glenn87
13-11-2011, 10:16
Glenn87 - the Chaos Dwarf army book was presented as a "White Dwarf Presents" and was in a different format to the other army lists. That and Ravening Hordes are the only book support CD have had since 4th Ed. That doesn't mean their book was not official, but it was different.

Really?
http://web.mac.com/melfstrom/Warhammer/4th_ed.html
seems like an official army book here.
Or the site-mod could be wrong (or missed posting that one).

RanaldLoec
13-11-2011, 10:19
If all the Orcs and Goblins belong in the same book than so do the Wood elves and High elves.

Yeah let's put dark elves in as well, there elves after all.:confused:

Spider-pope
13-11-2011, 10:20
Really?
http://web.mac.com/melfstrom/Warhammer/4th_ed.html
seems like an official army book here.
Or the site-mod could be wrong (or missed posting that one).

Actually look at the picture though. I have 'White Dwarf presents Chaos Dwarfs' physically in front of me here. Now the first thing you'll notice is that nowhere on the cover does it actually say Warhammer Armies, Warhammer yes but it doesnt have the banner from the other army books.

Next is the 'White Dwarf presents' logo, something the rest of the army books do not have. Not evident from the picture you've linked is the contents, which are a collection of White Dwarf articles detailing the background and units of the Chaos Dwarfs along with a Battle report and an Army list.

Did the Chaos Dwarfs have an official army list? Yes.
Was it presented in an official book? Yes.
Was it a Warhammer Armies book? No it wasnt.

And it didnt cost as much either, 12 compared to the armies books 15, which is actually why i started Chaos Dwarfs. I had 18 to spend, so theirs was the only army that i could buy the book for plus a 5 box of miniatures.

yabbadabba
13-11-2011, 10:27
Really?
http://web.mac.com/melfstrom/Warhammer/4th_ed.html
seems like an official army book here.
Or the site-mod could be wrong (or missed posting that one). Did you miss the bit where I said it didn't mean that it wasn't official?

That doesn't mean their book was not official, but it was different. Nope, I knew it was there. Pleae note it is also the only book with a "White Dwarf Presents" on the cover. The layout was also different, as it was the WD articles just pasted in.

Working at GW at the time, JJ told us that the first book was an opportunity to get the army established, and that it would be followed up later with a proper army book in the same style as the other armies. This never happened for a variety of reasons.

chilledenuff
13-11-2011, 12:40
All chaos should be back in one book IMHO. Much better than the current 3 books, or return to the 3 books being usable together. Not so much nerfing but fitting back with established fluff.

Daemonia
13-11-2011, 13:42
And it didnt cost as much either, 12 compared to the armies books 15, which is actually why i started Chaos Dwarfs. I had 18 to spend, so theirs was the only army that i could buy the book for plus a 5 box of miniatures.

I miss things being that affordable. Mind you that was about the time I started Fantasy at all :P

I doubt they will flat-out scrap an army book again if there's any possible way they can avoid it. There's plenty of instances of them leaving things for long, long times but that just means if they run out of ideas they can always come back and say "hey guys remember Dark Eldar?!" and make loads of money with beautiful miniatures and a well-designed army book. I am certain it will happen for Dwarfs (I can understand people not liking hippy elves but DWARFS?).

The other day I recall wishing that they would mix the Chaos books together again in some fashion so that they'd at least support all the ranges and balance them together. Wishful thinking (for them to balance all such things internally let alone externally) but it made a mate of mine think "what if they just combined the Bretonnian list and the Wood Elf list?" as a way to get both out there again to mix an entirely heavy cavalry army with a primarily foot-based but fast army, backed up by monsters ridden and unridden and lots of girly Life magic about the place. I still thought the idea was a bit silly but hey, it'd be better than nothing in a long long time.

Duke Ramulots
13-11-2011, 13:44
All chaos should be back in one book IMHO. Much better than the current 3 books, or return to the 3 books being usable together. Not so much nerfing but fitting back with established fluff.

DoC and Woc should, but Beastmen are fine on their own. However, with beast added back in the army would have access to every phase of the game.

RanaldLoec
13-11-2011, 13:56
Let's go the other way what army is GW likely to split into different books.

How about

Demons of athel loren :eyebrows:

And

Warriors of wood :wtf:

And Er......

Elveman :confused:

abdulaapocolyps
13-11-2011, 16:20
Good question.
If one drops I suppose its most likely to be woodies or Beasties. I doubt they would drop beast any time soon as that would seem like an admission that they should never have split chaos, and GW do NOT admit mistakes.
I, personally, hate Elves of all kind and particularly the wood elves. They are one of the least evocative armies for me, but I would truly be sad to see them go. They are one of the 'original' tolkein armies, separate to the High elves etc and with every step away from its routes I feel warhammer loses some charm.
Brettonian on the other hand... Something needs doing to refresh these guys a little...
The one army I actually don't like as a stand alone entity is Ogre Kingdoms. If I had the choice, I suppose I'd drop either Ogres or Brets and meld them into another book or two.

If you HAD to drop an army, which would it be???

Duke Ramulots
13-11-2011, 16:53
Brets? Really? I hate you to your very core abdulaapocolyps :(

Glenn87
13-11-2011, 19:39
Good question.
If one drops I suppose its most likely to be woodies or Beasties. I doubt they would drop beast any time soon as that would seem like an admission that they should never have split chaos, and GW do NOT admit mistakes.
I, personally, hate Elves of all kind and particularly the wood elves. They are one of the least evocative armies for me, but I would truly be sad to see them go. They are one of the 'original' tolkein armies, separate to the High elves etc and with every step away from its routes I feel warhammer loses some charm.
Brettonian on the other hand... Something needs doing to refresh these guys a little...
The one army I actually don't like as a stand alone entity is Ogre Kingdoms. If I had the choice, I suppose I'd drop either Ogres or Brets and meld them into another book or two.

If you HAD to drop an army, which would it be???


Yeah, Ogres would be my choice too, or Tomb Kings. Too bad those books are very new and they won't be dropped the first 10 years or so...

theshoveller
13-11-2011, 20:07
Working at GW at the time, JJ told us that the first book was an opportunity to get the army established, and that it would be followed up later with a proper army book in the same style as the other armies. This never happened for a variety of reasons.
I'm intrigued to hear what those reasons were...

Anardakil
13-11-2011, 20:36
Great, a wishlisting of what army GW should drop :rolleyes:

So you really think they'd bring back Chaos Dwarfs (their list is official) and then drop wood elves? :P

Liber
13-11-2011, 21:36
GW are not going to drop any armies ever.

End of story.

cyberspite
13-11-2011, 21:58
It's highly unlikely any of the current armies will be dropped, much less wood elves who have been around since the very beginning.

And as for merging them with another book, I find the wood elf background and style extremely evocative, why dilute that by mixing them with completely different armies? So yes, I would rather wait a long time for a new book than have to put up with some sort of bret-elf disaster.

chamelion 6
13-11-2011, 22:05
Weren't the most recent Skaven and Beastmen books released after 8th? Still in the old paperback format, but still part of the 8th edition books?

TheZombieSquig
13-11-2011, 23:11
Didn't they just redo the WE treeman? I doubt they'd make a model for an army they're dropping.
Maybe it's just for the SOM item which creates treemen... :skull:


Weren't the most recent Skaven and Beastmen books released after 8th? Still in the old paperback format, but still part of the 8th edition books?
No, they were released during 7th edition... probably with 8th in mind, though.

cornixt
14-11-2011, 00:23
The layout was also different, as it was the WD articles just pasted in.

In what way? It looked pretty much the same as all the regular army books (well, the few other ones I read), so apart from the cover and the bits that read "Look in next months White Dwarf..." it wasn't distinguishable from the Warhammer Armies books.

theshoveller
14-11-2011, 07:26
In what way? It looked pretty much the same as all the regular army books (well, the few other ones I read), so apart from the cover and the bits that read "Look in next months White Dwarf..." it wasn't distinguishable from the Warhammer Armies books.
I never owned the book, but I did have all the WD issues from that period. They're literally just the collected WD articles.

chamelion 6
14-11-2011, 16:01
No, they were released during 7th edition... probably with 8th in mind, though.

Hrmmm... For some reason it seems like I remember a Skaven book out just before the release of 8th and another a few months later after the 8th release.

Damn... I'm getting old and all these army books a starting to blur together.... :)

tezdal
14-11-2011, 17:16
Personally I could see them dropping Brets(as I bret player I feel the lack of love), but besides them don't see who else they'd nix.

Lord Inquisitor
14-11-2011, 17:38
GW are not going to drop any armies ever.

End of story.

Pretty much. GW have become super-careful about introducing new races to any of their games because they've realised that they're pretty much stuck with them.

Ultimately when GW go to the effort of making a plastic range of models, there's little reason to scrap the army. Chaos Dwarfs and Squats both predated the Plastic Age and certainly don't have the sorts of kits e.g. Wood Elves have.

I may have missed it, but I'm surprised noone's mentioned that the Chaos Dwarfs do have a brand new list just released! From what I've heard it looks like it will be tournament legal at least at some GTs. I don't think Chaos Dwarf players have been doing anything but rubbing their hands in glee at what Warhammer Forge have been doing.

GW could drop an army but I'd wager they don't. Candidates include Brets (they have plastics but pretty poor compared with current standards) and Sisters of Battle (limited plastics indeed). I'd be shocked if either were dropped. GW can leave an army in purgatory until they're ready to deal with them - after all, why stop selling a product? Even if they're online-only there's not much reason not to sell Brets. Moving an army to WF does appear to be something that could potentially happen, however.

Night Bearer
14-11-2011, 18:01
I want to say since the release of 8th, there's been this rumor that GW will (some day) release Cathay, Nippon, and/or Ind armies, and a related rumor that in order to do this GW needs to drop a few existing armies to clear up the resources and shelf-space to support any new ranges.

Obviously things can change, but I believe it wasn't too long ago that Jervis was quoted as saying that GW's experiences have led them to feel that once an army is 'official' it can't be dropped, because of the headache and upset feelings it's caused with past examples. I think the actual wording was something to the effect of "once we make an armybook, we're committing ourselves to indefinitely supporting that army", and was in response to a question about why more armies aren't released for 40k and WHFB.

I really can't imagine them dropping Brets specifically, given they provide an iconic background (Arthurian romance) that isn't really covered by any other army. I don't know the sales figs, but I'd think that, when properly supported, Brets are a fairly popular army.

popisdead
14-11-2011, 20:48
I'm thinking of stuff like Brettonia or Wood Elves who have been ignored for a full edition.

And Dwarfs.

Wood Elves were made with 7th ed in mind. As were Dwarfs. Wood Elves also didn't get a 5th ed book. Just like their 6th ed book, they got a 4th ed book then 5th ed came out.

I would not put stock into these theories.

09Project
14-11-2011, 21:34
If i was to 'kill off ' an army book i would merge WoC and beastman.

I would remove marauders on foot, chaos warrior chariots and forsakwn and replace these with gors, bestigors, beastman chariots and possibly ungor raiders (no ranked ungors).

I would then kill of dragon ogres (not the shaggoth) and chaos ogres and replace with minotaurs.

The shaggoth redo as new big monster and jaberslythe as a charactor mount.

Bonus is lots of great plastic kits and some new ways for WoC to be hitty. Add a couple of beastman based charactor hero options. Both armies also fundamentally intact with little new models to make.

That my theory anyway, the current beastman background doesn't work for me, joining them with WoC gives a fresh start, also does fantasy really need 3 chaos books basic??

T10
14-11-2011, 21:43
7th Edition
* Dwarfs


I seem to recall Dwarfs were actually the last 6th edition book.

Glenn87
14-11-2011, 22:19
If i was to 'kill off ' an army book i would merge WoC and beastman.

I would remove marauders on foot, chaos warrior chariots and forsakwn and replace these with gors, bestigors, beastman chariots and possibly ungor raiders (no ranked ungors).

I would then kill of dragon ogres (not the shaggoth) and chaos ogres and replace with minotaurs.

The shaggoth redo as new big monster and jaberslythe as a charactor mount.

Bonus is lots of great plastic kits and some new ways for WoC to be hitty. Add a couple of beastman based charactor hero options. Both armies also fundamentally intact with little new models to make.

That my theory anyway, the current beastman background doesn't work for me, joining them with WoC gives a fresh start, also does fantasy really need 3 chaos books basic??


Why remove all of this stuff? I think it's perfectly fine to combine them. O&G have ALOT of stuff in their book, it makes the book varied.

Besides, the only thing 2 things I see merging are WoC and DoC (I feel they fit more together then Beasties and WoC), and POSSIBLY (but much less unlikely) High Elves and Wood Elves.

And about the shelf room for a cathy-army...If they make a release of a FEW boxed sets and an extra Army book (with rules such as SoM) then it'll work fine.
Also, because those models can actually be used by empire (or whatever they decide to add, if they add DE's, O&G, Dwarfs and stuff like DOW). After SoM, pretty much most of the monsters they released are worthless (in gaming terms).
I mean, who uses the Cockatrice??? Same for the Chimera (don't know if there's an army who can use it as a mount).
They put resources in making resin versions of the fenbeast, the Truthsayer, the Dark Emissary, Lammasu and Great Taurus...Who is going to use them afterwards (altough Emissary and Truthsayer could be used as normal wizards of kinds).

Feefait
15-11-2011, 03:40
Nerf means lowering the power of an army, not removing it.

GW won't scratch an army if they can help it. But if something proves to be an unsalvagable liability...

This.

Armies get nerfed generally when they don't translate well to a new edition of the game, a la Vampire Counts. But they eventually get caught back up.

Dropping is another matter. Hate me if you want, but those CD hats were silly. I only know one (real, not internet) person who ever bought them. I honestly don't see any reason for them to exist beyond a FW army. DoW was an awesome concept that I think got killed because of the cost to produce vs. low return and the potential abuse of the 'army' as allies. As far as I recall when it was released it was never intended as it's own army, it could just be played on it's own if that makes sense.

Some armies like Bretts and WE seem to perennially get the short end of the stick update wise. I waited for ever for this current WE book, while I've seen 2-3 skaven and or LM books released in that time frame. It's half sales and half whimsy as far as what stays I think.