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pcx64
14-11-2011, 14:25
Are they scary specially with pathfinder upgrade?

Will it be wise to field them as only the main troop?

I raised my bows when I saw their BS at 4 and much better than the Scout Sniper Squad.

Any thoughts from the Eldar player are very much appreciated.

Brother-Captain Endymion
14-11-2011, 15:09
Are they scary? Not particularly. They are, however, tough to shift if you can prevent them from being assaulted.

Hendarion
14-11-2011, 15:15
Not scary, because:
1) they cost a lot of points
2) cover is everywhere to prevent rending to be effective
3) they die like flies in close-combat
4) you can't move them around

If you ask me, it is not "wise" to field them as the only troop-choice, no.

boogaloo
14-11-2011, 15:34
I always had alot of fun with my rangers/pathfinders. But I believe it was Dweomer, or Irisado (one of the Eldar Tactica regulars) who number crunched the whole thing and came to the conclusion that point for point basic rangers are a little bit better, and a nice little flank of 2 squads eldrad, and a wraithlord. It was a rather interesting read.

Bunnahabhain
14-11-2011, 18:22
Rangers and pathfinders They're nice enough.. doubly so when deep fried. Hellhounds are fun.

Fielding them as your only troops? Really bad plan. That objective(s) on the other side of the table you need to take.... good luck.

BS 4 snipers are nothing special. Even little abhuman mutants do it well.

Dervos
14-11-2011, 18:39
The more I use them the more I realize how much they really don't contribute to my army.

Even if I get them into cover to take advantage of their cover saves bonus they get focused by templates and die horribly because their armor is bad, even with their range I have a hard time finding something for them to shoot at.

Out of 5 games I've used them I think they Rangers were responsible for for a total of 5 model kills, whereas every game they've been in they have all died.

I'm pretty much done with using rangers, it's probably just me who can't use them properly but I can't see myself justifying using them in the future.

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-11-2011, 18:48
Out of 5 games I've used them I think they Rangers were responsible for for a total of 5 model kills, whereas every game they've been in they have all died.


Based on old experience when I used them, your Rangers have been doing well then, killing 5 models. A model a game is higher than what mine averaged. Granted, it will depend a lot on what kind of targets you have but in general think of the Rangers as a funky support unit, not as the core of your army.

cynic
14-11-2011, 18:49
Rangers and Pathfinders are nice, although they were slightly better in 4th ed.

Just watch out for flamers!

blackcherry
14-11-2011, 18:55
They used to be good when 40k wasn't so cover save focused, as it was petty rare to see many cover ignoring weapons, making the unit a cheap(in an Eldar army) distraction that were hard to shift and tied up far more points of shooting than they were worth.

Now the focus of the game has shifted, not so much. They get toasted far too easily to be useful objective holders.

Dwane Diblie
14-11-2011, 23:43
With the prevalance of Cover in this edition the abitily to punch armour is no ware as improtant or powerful as it was last edition. What is more important these days is total number of saves taken. That being said Rangers still have their uses.

I use rangers often and if used right then they can be quite anoying to the enemy. I have taken out 2 Manticors in a single game with a 5 man Pathfinder unit. Pinning evistator Squads and the suck is always fun. It is not always about the damage they do but the damage they cam prevent your army from taking and suck things.

The best way to keep your rangers alive is to keep them more than 2 stories off the ground. This should give you enough time to counter any deliberate attempt to flame your Rangers as they will have to move up the building to get in range with their Flamers.

In the last Eldar Codex it was compleatly viable to run all your troops as Rangers due to lack of cover and a decent cover save. This edition not so much. (Not to mention the power of the Craftworld Codex)

Col. Tartleton
15-11-2011, 00:39
I kind of think the Dark Eldar Codex does a better job of representing Eldar as I'd imagine them fighting, but that's heresy. (Especially the new Forgeworld Superheavies, those are beautiful)

Wave Serpents were cooler when they looked like Dark Eldar Raiders. Of course I like to think all the Eldar are the sort who consider war terribly sporting. They're all one species. Unless you're looking at making the most of that Ghost Army or Ranger or Swordwind or Seer spam (which you'd probably only see in the main 5 craftworlds; Iyanden, Alaitoc, Biel Tann or Ulthwe)(Saim Hann seems more typical of how Eldar fight except they probably include more infantry in skimmers.)

I think converted raiders and warriors (to look a bit more civilized) would be a good basis for the army.

RandomThoughts
15-11-2011, 01:03
I'm pretty much done with using rangers, it's probably just me who can't use them properly but I can't see myself justifying using them in the future.

Nay, exact same situation here. I think Kelanen is one of the most acclaimed players here on Warseer that uses them with some success. He explained why and how over here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321225&page=2).

Personally, I thing the problem is that all our troops suck right now, no matter if you run Dire Avengers, DAVUs, Jetbikes, Guardians, Rangers, Pathfinders or Wraithguard, you'll always feel you're getting the short end of the stick, so I think everyone of us had to figure out for themselves which troops luck least for them personally. For me it's cheap min-sized jetbikes, but many disagree. It's really how you play, who you play against, what your local environment is.

Dervos
15-11-2011, 01:32
Nay, exact same situation here. I think Kelanen is one of the most acclaimed players here on Warseer that uses them with some success. He explained why and how over here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321225&page=2).

Personally, I thing the problem is that all our troops suck right now, no matter if you run Dire Avengers, DAVUs, Jetbikes, Guardians, Rangers, Pathfinders or Wraithguard, you'll always feel you're getting the short end of the stick, so I think everyone of us had to figure out for themselves which troops luck least for them personally. For me it's cheap min-sized jetbikes, but many disagree. It's really how you play, who you play against, what your local environment is.

I have to agree with you.

I used to love Bladestorming DA, now i'm more inclined to using only the PW+SS Defend kit, or just never deploying them at all. It feels more and more like I buy the dire avengers just to use a wave serpent. If that's the case I may well just stick to DAVU.

I recently got a squad of WG off of ebay and wow have they been great so far.( played against tau, ate a deep strike unit, and GK, gk player accidently detached draigo, he got a face full of wraithcannon, they surivived three turns of shooting and 2 turns of assault before finally being destroyed), and maybe it isn't fair comparing them to DA and rangers but really more and more I'm falling in love with the WG after using them a few times and might be returning to ebay to get more cheap WG.(Hoping it isn't new unit fad and that I'll stick with them)

Using DA on the field for me is losing it's luster, I think i'm about to fully convert to the wraithwall, which is a little disheartening since I just recently finished painting my DA and just bought a 4th WS I'm probably not going to use. I already use x3 WL and just recently bought and use Prince Yriel so I guess this is naturally progressing in that direction for me.

I really really like the idea of rangers, but playing them just feels wrong to me now.

@ Gorbad Ironclaw

Guess I wasn't the only one having trouble :cries:, funky support unit just about sums them up, if they move they aren't shooting so we better pray there's something squishy inside 36"...

djhowitzer
15-11-2011, 03:30
i use pathfinders on a regular basis and have found them to be reasonably effective. they are especially good infiltrating onto the opponents side of the pitch when backed up by scorpions.

dont forget that pathfinders can ignore cover. they can run away if someone comes to get them.

using them as your only troop can leave them vulnerable, but again - back them up with scorpions

RandomThoughts
15-11-2011, 04:14
Using DA on the field for me is losing it's luster, I think i'm about to fully convert to the wraithwall, which is a little disheartening since I just recently finished painting my DA and just bought a 4th WS I'm probably not going to use. I already use x3 WL and just recently bought and use Prince Yriel so I guess this is naturally progressing in that direction for me.

My personal experience is that the pendulum swings both ways. I often go previously discarded units back out off the box later, when I wanted to implement a new strategy. Sadly, that hasn't happened much recently. I'm seeing more and more why eldar are considered a low to mid tier army, as the people I play with catch up to me and my tricks, and fighting blood angels and the like heads on is far from being fun...

Regarding Wraithwalls, easiest way to beat them is powerfist spam, possibly Terminators or Ork Nobs. Then of course there are battle cannon and othe large blast weapons, and don't fprget DE poison weapons. Peersonally, I'd probably just ignore them - 400+ points for 6" move 12" range? Engage just in time to draw them off an objectice, and concentrate on killing everything else in the meantime.

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-11-2011, 07:05
Unless you're looking at making the most of that Ghost Army or Ranger or Swordwind or Seer spam (which you'd probably only see in the main 5 craftworlds; Iyanden, Alaitoc, Biel Tann or Ulthwe)(Saim Hann seems more typical of how Eldar fight except they probably include more infantry in skimmers.)

It depends on what you mean by that. If you mean high mobility, quickly moving to another angle of attack and always outflanking the opponent then yes. But the base of an eldar army should be the Aspect Warriors. Remember, they are the professional soldiers, the standing army. Guardians are a citizen militia that's drafted in if the Aspect Warriors need support. So I really do think that Craftworld Eldars should be based on Aspect Warriors as they are the only Eldars who are actually meant to fight. Everything else is suppose to be support.
Now it's slightly different for Saim-hann and Ultwhe, as both have standing forces of what would be Guardians, but those are the exceptions, not the rule. Iyandan could be a special case too, although even after having been hit by the Nids they would easily be able to field forces of the size you see and read about in 40k. They might just be even more careful than other craftworlds about risking them. And making Alaitoc a ranger force always seemed kind of odd to me, but that's a different discussion.

djhowitzer
15-11-2011, 12:21
in answer to are they scary: only if you guide the pathfinders and doom the target. personally, i always pay for the pathfinders because it is twice as much ap1 - and when you are shooting at terminators or the like that does make a difference. also helps if you are short on targets and need to shoot at rhinos.

mercury14
16-11-2011, 00:13
Regarding Wraithwalls, easiest way to beat them is powerfist spam, possibly Terminators or Ork Nobs. Then of course there are battle cannon and othe large blast weapons, and don't fprget DE poison weapons. Peersonally, I'd probably just ignore them - 400+ points for 6" move 12" range? Engage just in time to draw them off an objectice, and concentrate on killing everything else in the meantime.


This is simplistic though. For one, WG units score so you have to be playing a really dumb opponent if they're going to allow them to be lured off an objective. It's hard to ignore them when an objective is around.

Termi/fist spam? Sure but that's pretty much the counter to most tough units, and it's not cheap. Large blast weapons? Remember that WG units have a Warlock with conceal, if not regular cover. And it's pretty likely that a Fortuneseer or even Eldrad will be around. With T6 and re-rollable cover saves WG don't fear shooting.

I run a WG list with two squads of 'em, one with Eldrad and Karandras. Karandras gives the unit stealth so I have a re-rollable 3+ or 4+ cover save. Most CC units are not a problem at all, especially since I'm certain to bubble wrap Eldrad/Karandras as much as possible. Doom and Fortune... This unit performs great in CC.

TH/SS units are a bit of a problem but that's why you have the rest of your list. If I can weaken them a bit with shooting I have no problem assaulting them. With Doom a few of them are going to die from Eldrad/Warlock/WG even before the THs (and Karandras) start throwing dice.

RandomThoughts
16-11-2011, 10:27
This is simplistic though. For one, WG units score so you have to be playing a really dumb opponent if they're going to allow them to be lured off an objective. It's hard to ignore them when an objective is around.

Termi/fist spam? Sure but that's pretty much the counter to most tough units, and it's not cheap. Large blast weapons? Remember that WG units have a Warlock with conceal, if not regular cover. And it's pretty likely that a Fortuneseer or even Eldrad will be around. With T6 and re-rollable cover saves WG don't fear shooting.

I run a WG list with two squads of 'em, one with Eldrad and Karandras. Karandras gives the unit stealth so I have a re-rollable 3+ or 4+ cover save. Most CC units are not a problem at all, especially since I'm certain to bubble wrap Eldrad/Karandras as much as possible. Doom and Fortune... This unit performs great in CC.

TH/SS units are a bit of a problem but that's why you have the rest of your list. If I can weaken them a bit with shooting I have no problem assaulting them. With Doom a few of them are going to die from Eldrad/Warlock/WG even before the THs (and Karandras) start throwing dice.

I'll bow to your superior experience then, I ran my ten-squad just a few times, with Karandras and Fortune too, and while it took a huge chunk of my opponent's army to bring them down, it was still cheaper than what I paid for my little Deathstar.

I think my real issue with Wraithguards is this:
1. I enjoy small games, and the smaller the game, the less points you got lest for other things after you pay that incredibly deathstar.
2. My playstyle resolves mostly around table control and outmanuevering the opponent, and while an unshiftable roadblock to anchor my lines is usually a great addition, I usually don't enjoy ending up on the powerhouse side of the Faction Calculus (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FactionCalculus).

Dervos
17-11-2011, 02:14
This is simplistic though. For one, WG units score so you have to be playing a really dumb opponent if they're going to allow them to be lured off an objective. It's hard to ignore them when an objective is around.

Termi/fist spam? Sure but that's pretty much the counter to most tough units, and it's not cheap. Large blast weapons? Remember that WG units have a Warlock with conceal, if not regular cover. And it's pretty likely that a Fortuneseer or even Eldrad will be around. With T6 and re-rollable cover saves WG don't fear shooting.

I run a WG list with two squads of 'em, one with Eldrad and Karandras. Karandras gives the unit stealth so I have a re-rollable 3+ or 4+ cover save. Most CC units are not a problem at all, especially since I'm certain to bubble wrap Eldrad/Karandras as much as possible. Doom and Fortune... This unit performs great in CC.

TH/SS units are a bit of a problem but that's why you have the rest of your list. If I can weaken them a bit with shooting I have no problem assaulting them. With Doom a few of them are going to die from Eldrad/Warlock/WG even before the THs (and Karandras) start throwing dice.

I don't want to burst your bubble or derail the thread; but doesn't Karandras' entry state that he only confers stealth on a squad of striking scorpions?

Ravariel
17-11-2011, 07:25
I don't want to burst your bubble or derail the thread; but doesn't Karandras' entry state that he only confers stealth on a squad of striking scorpions?

Indeed it does. You can put him in the squad for the hidden PF, but he won't give them Stealth.

RandomThoughts
17-11-2011, 10:48
I don't want to burst your bubble or derail the thread; but doesn't Karandras' entry state that he only confers stealth on a squad of striking scorpions?


Indeed it does. You can put him in the squad for the hidden PF, but he won't give them Stealth.

Karandras doesn't bestow Stealth through his special rule, but through the 5th edition ruling of stealth which says that a unit gains stealth as long as a single model in the unit has it. :angel:

Dwane Diblie
17-11-2011, 11:03
Rule Book P74 p2 UNIVERSAL SPECIAL RULES
"As this is just a summary, if any Codexes include one of these special rules and the rule is different, the one in the Codex takes precedence (representing how the general rule applies to that specific race)."

There are atleast 2 locations in the Eldar codex that stat that USR from Exarch (and phoenix lords) only transfer to Aspect Warriors and Autarchs. This overrides the rule book stating that it applys to any unit the character joins.