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Sgt Whiskey Swiper
17-04-2006, 21:51
What do you view your hobby as?

Have you bowed to GW propaganda and believe that GW is a 'Hobby'?

Or still see yourself as a Wargamer first and foremost?

I am a Wargamer, what are you and do you think GW's ploy of 'Hobby' is to replace conventional wargaming?

~Swipe.

Kjell
17-04-2006, 21:59
I'm a wargamer, I suppose, but I don't really play any other tabletop games. If GW only had one or two games and was as relatively small-time as other companies I'm sure they'd call it "wargaming", too. But since they're big enough to sell their own brand of glue, tools, modelling putty, paints, rulers, dice, terrain and never mind the large assortment of games they have of course they'll call it the "GW hobby". You needn't buy products from any other company than GW to play LotR, BFG and so on, after all.

But, yeah, wargamer. I'll only be a "proper" one once I start playing a non-GW game, though. :p

Lostanddamned
17-04-2006, 21:59
I am a wargamer. I play games workshop systems.

there IS NO GW HOBBY in the same way there is no Element Skateboards hobby or an Island Records Hobby, they are skateboarding and record collecting respectively

Brushmonkey
17-04-2006, 22:08
Yes I am into the 'GW Hobby'. I play their games using their materials at their stores. There is no outside influence.

I am also into the 'Wargames Hobby', as I play other wargames too. However, they are supported by many different companies.

Should any of the tabletop wargames companies get as big as GW, then they will be called by the 'hobby' tag too.

t-tauri
17-04-2006, 22:10
This came up on TMP a while ago. What you're starting to see is young kids coming into the wargaming hobby who have never experienced anything but GW. Ask yourself how many kids in the local shop refer to figures as "Warhammers" or "Citadels"? Warhammer is becoming synonymous with wargaming.

We may not like it but it won't be long before the GW "hobby" becomes the view most of the on-gaming pulic have of wargaming.

Gaebriel
17-04-2006, 22:16
... Have you bowed to GW propaganda and believe that GW is a 'Hobby'? ...

...

I am a Wargamer, what are you and do you think GW's ploy of 'Hobby' is to replace conventional wargaming?

...
Do I hear a little negativity here? ;)

I consider myself a wargamer, but I refer to what I do as "the GW-Hobby", because that's what I want to do, and I like the sound of it - I went through a couple of incarnations of my gaming-hobby and choose GW in the end.

Are there really people out there who buy the "GW Hobby" being meant as a replacement for wargaming in general? I refuse to believe that GW themselves mean it that way. For me the GW Hobby has always been the wargaming- or more the gaming-niche GW fills with it's metagame einvironment.

Brushmonkey
17-04-2006, 22:17
Not particularly a bad thing as GW do make it easy to get into wargaming as a whole.

Its just whether those new players go on to look beyond the GW horizon. I'm quite hopeful, a lot of players around here (young and old alike) have taken an interest in Specialist Games, so thet proves they will look for new things to entertain them. Its only a short step for an internet savvy generation to see what other companies offer.

So up with GW, and up with wargaming as a whole!:)

Ivan Stupidor
17-04-2006, 22:23
One of my hobbies (that is, activities I enjoy doing) is buying and assembling little plastic and metal men. These are almost always produced by GW. I also enjoy painting said men - with paints bought from the local GW. I like playing games - games produced by GW - with my little metal and plastic men and their horrid paintjobs. Sometimes, I read books made by a subsidiary of GW and discuss the content of the aforementioned games and books online, generally on forums dedicated to GW games. I do not play any other game that falls under the broad category of "wargames" or "minature games". I do not collect scale model kits to paint them. The entirety of my involvement with little plastic and metal men and vehicles revolves around Games Workshop and their products.

In GW-speak, I'm a "hobbyist". Then again, so is someone who has a squad of RTB01 Marines in a box in their attic, or someone with a Squat army collecting dust and enough soldiers to do a 1:1 recreation of D-Day in Flames of War, and so is everyone on Warseer, whether they self-identify as one or not. The term "hobbyist" is just that - a term used by GW to refer to people who buy/have bought their products. Admittedly, it does distance those who only take part in the "GW hobby" from those who play all manner of "wargames", but I fail to see how that is anymore a ploy to stamp out "conventional wargames" than, say, requiring all models in a GW-sanctioned tournament to be mostly Citadel minatures.

(And this thought just came to me - is there any other wargame/minature company that can, however tenuously, be able to claim to be a "hobby" with all the models/paints/miscellaneous supplies/game rules to back it up?)

neXus6
17-04-2006, 22:29
I'd have to go with wargamer. Though I have heard the interesting line "Your not a propper hobbyist (or wargamer) unless you have 1500pts of a 40k army, 2000pts of a fantasy army and 500pts each of good and evil for Lord of the Rings, painted."
My reaction was along the lines of "No your not a proper wargamer unless you own at least 1 non GW model." Doesn't matter what it is, model by another company, something you sculpted out of greenstuff, a tank built of cardboard and balsa wood, whatever. (though naturally even if you just play one GW game and only have GW models you are still a wargamer I was just trying to make a point) :p

The "GW hobby" line doesn't sit well with me at all.

Shield of Freedom
17-04-2006, 22:32
I play EVERYTHING. seriously, name it.

I am an RPGer
I am a Wargamer
I am a video gamer
I am an MMOer
I am a hobbyist
I am a cardgamer
I am a miniatures collector/gamer
I am a board gamer
and....

I participate in the GW hobby too....<gasp!>

There is a GW hobby. You can combine thier entire "thing" and never touch any other hobby easily and get everything out of it. Models, paint and hobby supplies, books, video games, board games, card games, Role playing games, they are a hobby in thier own right. Even though there are certain things I prefer over thier GW counterparts (like books and RPGs and some minatures) I can't dispute that fact.

The GW hobby exists. However I would never generalisze myself or the wargaming hobby by calling it ALL the GW hobby.

I am simply: A GAMER

starlight
17-04-2006, 22:41
<snip>.....I refuse to believe that GW themselves mean it that way. <snip>

Hate to be the breaker of bad news, but they *do* mean it that way.:(

GW would just as soon have little-Johnny-gamer believe that GW is the only accepted way to play any form of miniature wargaming. GW believes that they are the biggest (currently true), the best (far too subjective to argue) and hopefully the only company (wishful thinking at this point) that people think about when they think miniatures wargaming.

Sadly this is one of the reasons that GW has run into the problems that they have today. They've lost sight of their market and have adopted the old-school mindset that the customer (sorry CB, Hobbyist:p) will blindly purchase whatever is on the shelf. Modern, successful companies pursue the *market*, they don't assume that they can sell anything. They constantly innovate and seek to meet their customer's needs. GW lost sight of that, hopefully recent events are showing that they've regained their customer focus.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-04-2006, 22:42
What do you view your hobby as?

Have you bowed to GW propaganda and believe that GW is a 'Hobby'?

Or still see yourself as a Wargamer first and foremost?

I am a Wargamer, what are you and do you think GW's ploy of 'Hobby' is to replace conventional wargaming?

~Swipe.

Well, personally, I'd say your being Paranoid.

There is a vast, VAST difference twixt the GW *Hobby* and the Wargaming *Hobby*

GW are in fact a Hobby, as I have pointed out numerous times before. The company offers not only the models and rules, but EVERYTHING you will ever need. Flock, Paints, Terrain, Glue, Brushes, Transfers, Battlemats, Novels, Art Books. EVERYTHING.

Now, at no point have GW ever claimed they are the be all and end all of Hobby Wargaming. If you say they never seem to acknowledge the existence of rivals, I would dearly like to see you run a business with that sort of policy. I bet you'd last about 3 weeks.

neXus6
17-04-2006, 22:45
Simply cause they have their own shops so they are able to stock flock, paints etc does not give them the position to claim they are a hobby in their own right in my opinion.

Rakham (sp) also produce paints does that mean thay are their own hobby, no of course it doesn't. It is all table top wargames.

Gaebriel
17-04-2006, 22:46
Hate to be the breaker of bad news, but they *do* mean it that way.:( ...
With this coming from a "man in the know" :(

neXus6
17-04-2006, 22:48
Just from the way it's been said by GW you can tell it was meant that way. Being in the know isn't so important but yeah back up to the horror show always helps. :(

RevEv
17-04-2006, 22:55
Ivan says it all really.

I too am a hobbyist. Due to moving away from my last regular opponent I do not 'wargame' as much as I would like (well, at least not with 28mm models). However I do still paint models as part of my hobby. I still read a magazine that supports my hobby. I do, regularly, read books about my hobby or based in the ficticious worlds that are part of the hobby background.

That makes wargaming my hobby, just as Rugby and now triathlon/duathlon are also my hobbies, just as canoeing and walking are my hobbies. As such to those outside the hobbies I participate in I am a wargamer, a rugby player, a triathlete/duathlete, a canoeist and a walker. Within the hobby communities however I am a hobbyist.

Whether you are a hobbyist or a wargamer simply depends upon your perspective.

GW has always promoted the games as a hobby (hence having regional hobby managers for some time, or refering to redshirts as hobbyists). Indeed in the years I have been involved with GW games I have seen GW expand from simply selling wargames to being what it is today - a centre for the wargames hobby. Without GW I would not be in to wargaming - the nearest stockist of wargaming materials exists on the back of the GW retail trade he has come in on a more regular basis.

If we accept that GW is a hobby, it makes it easier to accept that people will come and go from the hobby as it grips them or not. When I was younger I collected coins/stamps/Biggles Books (OK, still do that!)/Blue Peter Annuals/model railways/model aircraft, now I don't. I have moved on.

Enjoy GW as you wish, for as long as you wish. Take whichever label suits you. Just don't be swayed by anyone to take one you can't own.

The.Zocolo
17-04-2006, 23:49
It's called wargaming. Games Workshop are just one aspect of it.

Yeah you may only play GW games but, you are still a wargamer. As has already been said Rackham produce their own paints, minis and rules. So do (did) i-Kore (Urban Mammoth) so that argument is irrelevant.

Wait untill the Pikachu sees this one - prepare for the warath of the little yellow one!

de Selby
17-04-2006, 23:56
I am a GW hobbyist.

I'd be kidding myself if I claimed to be a 'wargamer', as I barely play at the moment. Mostly I collect, convert and then paint GW products. I buy the occasional Rackham sculpt when I get the opportunity, but not enough to matter.

This should not be some kind of political issue. Life's too short.

Pikachu
18-04-2006, 00:02
OH

MY

CHRIST

ON

A

*******

BIKE!


seriously folks, some of you may remember me from the former "pr0ntent" site, and those that do remember me for not being very nice towards the good citizens of GW, however, i just dropped in on the site and was alerted to this thread.

my god, how can any of you people swallow any of this "GW Hobby" crap?, its just another way that games workshop use to make out that they invented the whole concept of wargaming, and that anyone who doesnt play their products is some sort of mentally deficient retard.
the only 'tards round here are those who blindly listen to the over priced GW propaganda machine, which tirelessly works night and day to produce low quality, badly proof read books and materials which they then peddle to pre pubescents for the price of a remortgage.

playing with little soldiers never was, isnt and never will be called anything remotely like the "GW Hobby", its called "Wargaming".
you dont see any other companies trying to hijack the hobby do you??, no, theres no mention in any of WOTCs CCG manuals as card games being the "WoTC Hobby" (lol, live tonight!!!, the world WoTC hobby texas hold em poker championships!!!11!!!!1one!1"), i dont see privateer referring to their corner of the market as "the privateer dogma", hell, i dont see coca cola describing drinking as being the "coca cola company ingestion of fluids hobby", so can someone please explain why, other than being a bunch of smug ********, GW likes to think that its over priced peddlings are in some way the be all and end all of the market.

fanboys may now attempt to conduct a flimsy defence....

neXus6
18-04-2006, 00:06
Yeah I remember you Pika, and in all honesty once Zocolo mentioned you I was waiting for you to post. :D
I agree with everything you said. :p

de Selby
18-04-2006, 00:12
Hey, *you* can call me a wargamer if it makes you feel better. But it's more of a misnomer than GW calling me a hobbyist.

I don't know where to go with this without trolling, really.

neXus6
18-04-2006, 00:13
The thing that doesn't sit well is GW feeling that they can label me, or label what I do. Some people don't care about that sort of thing and just get on with life but others do. :p

Pikachu
18-04-2006, 00:14
damn straight you agree with me, i cant help it if i speak the truth, no matter how much some people dont like it.

i havent even spared a thought to buying anything remotely GW related for over 3 years now, because i finally woke up and smelled the boiling pot of **** GW were serving.

their games are badly thought out, badly planned, badly executed, with rules designed with the idea of making little billy beg his mum to sell another kidney so he can buy what ever WD magazine is telling him to buy this month.
their prices are ridiculous, their concept of customer service is laughable and, to be frank, any sane person that attempts to defend them knows nothing about business in the real world.

oh wait, i mentioned the business word, that means ill have some kiddies saying "but they are in the biz to make money!11!2", true, that they are, but their business model looks like it was designed by a GCSE business student in his spare time, GW shares have plummetted, mainly due to the over reliance on the LOTR line boosting their profits, which it didnt.

meh.

Pikachu
18-04-2006, 00:16
Some people don't care about that sort of thing and just get on with life but others do. :p

youd find it annoying if you got labelled with a moniker youd rather not be associated with.

ugh *shudder*

The.Zocolo
18-04-2006, 00:16
See what happens if you wake him up?

Orbital
18-04-2006, 00:22
What do you view your hobby as?

Have you bowed to GW propaganda and believe that GW is a 'Hobby'?

Or still see yourself as a Wargamer first and foremost?

I am a Wargamer, what are you and do you think GW's ploy of 'Hobby' is to replace conventional wargaming?

~Swipe.

"Propaganda"? "Ploy"? Well. That wasn't much of a biased question.

I don't usually respond to people this way, but my initial response is "Is this actually an issue??" Is someone actually, sincerely kept awake at night by this?

The.Zocolo
18-04-2006, 00:24
Independant traders who have had their GW accounts cancelled because the might GW opened a store care.

Pikachu
18-04-2006, 00:26
yeah, indy traders get their backsides raped at the hands of GW, who insist that they have to place their stuff in prominent positions in the store and must "qualify" for the honour of stocking it.

not being funny, but once i buy stuff for my store, if i want to put it at the back of the shop and use it when i run out of toilet paper i will.

Orbital
18-04-2006, 00:26
Independant traders who have had their GW accounts cancelled because the might GW opened a store care.

That's not about nomenclature. That's about GW yanking store accounts because they want to open a GW store in that area.

neXus6
18-04-2006, 00:27
While it not be one of the most horrific crimes ever, it is just as annoying as if a NED called me a goth just cause I was wearing mostly black, if the law allowed me to punch them I would. The difference is GW stand a chance of increasing their strangle hold by doing it :p

Mind you on a different note of much thread locking debate every so often it does annoy me that after 12+ years of gaming and putting money into GW, without being a share holder or anything like that (as they have rights :rolleyes: ) I am sometimes treated like I am just "cluttering up their shop." Being a veteran seems to give them more reason to have a problem with me browsing than if I was just a person who had walked in off the street, or more importantly a kid with his parents.
They are allowed to browse for hours but no I am just cluttering the place up. :rolleyes:

Orbital
18-04-2006, 00:33
neXus: You might want to write a letter to GW and let them know that you're treated so badly at your store. I mention this because there are many, many GW stores that welcome the veteran. If yours treats you like you're in the way, I'm not so sure that's "GW Policy". That might just be a store (or bunch of stores) that are run by a**holes. Seriously... not all GW stores are like that. (Incidentally, I wrote an article once about How To Complain (http://www.macgamer.com/features/publish.php?id=735). It was intended to give people a way to bitch at video game publishers, but it translates effectively to anything you might want to take to GW as well. You may not need it, but I thought I'd mention it anyhow.)

On the other subject: I really don't care if someone calls what they do the "GW Hobby". That's just nomenclature and, to me, the impact is minimal. The subject of GW yanking a hobby vendor's GW product license is one thing. Whether or not GW calls what they sell a "Hobby" or a "Product" is really not the sort of thing that keeps me up nights.

The.Zocolo
18-04-2006, 00:33
That's not about nomenclature. That's about GW yanking store accounts because they want to open a GW store in that area.

Yes it's nomclature and yes I was that independent, also yes I worked for GW. You see *I* ran a wargames shop (note the past tense) and what with GW actively telling my customer base that they shouldn't use my store and of course eventually running out of GW stock I couldn't continue to trade.

Some of my customers actually heard GW staff telling kids and parents to avoid my store "'cos it's not proper GW hobby stuff is it?"

neXus6
18-04-2006, 00:38
@Orbital: That is something I was going to do but it has been a while now and I've had, and still have, more important things to sort out over the last wee while. I know all I need to know of the situation to write a letter, I made sure I did when I was puting serious thought into doing so. Also don't get me wrong the staff at my local GW are brilliant and my letter would not say a single bad word against them. :)


Some of my customers actually heard GW staff telling kids and parents to avoid my store "'cos it's not proper GW hobby stuff is it?"
That's just insaine. I wouldn't dream of that kind of thing, directing people to other places if the GW didn't have something would actually show the staff in such a good light that people would feel like they want to come back to the GW again. I've seen that sort of thing happen in other instances, a restaurant directing someone to their main rivals because they were fully booked, it really made them seem like good people.

Orbital
18-04-2006, 00:58
Yes it's nomclature and yes I was that independent, also yes I worked for GW. You see *I* ran a wargames shop (note the past tense) and what with GW actively telling my customer base that they shouldn't use my store and of course eventually running out of GW stock I couldn't continue to trade.

Some of my customers actually heard GW staff telling kids and parents to avoid my store "'cos it's not proper GW hobby stuff is it?"

If the kids were looking at buying Void minis for their Daemonhunters army, then the staff have a point. Otherwise, yeah... but most stores will do that (and no, that's not my way of saying I think it's a good thing; only a common thing). Ford salespeople don't say good things about Hondas. Pepsi doesn't say good things about Coke. Microsoft doesn't say good things about Apple. It's deceptive to slag the competition if there's no real reason to. It lacks class. It lacks honesty. It's a lot of bad things... but it's not an exclusively GW thing. I've heard enough independent store owners slag GW right back, so it's definitely a two-way street. I'm sure your store was a good one and I'm really sorry to hear that the local GW was doing something so evil... but I'm not surprised.

The.Zocolo
18-04-2006, 01:21
That's just insaine. I wouldn't dream of that kind of thing, directing people to other places if the GW didn't have something would actually show the staff in such a good light that people would feel like they want to come back to the GW again. I've seen that sort of thing happen in other instances, a restaurant directing someone to their main rivals because they were fully booked, it really made them seem like good people.

GW employees don't think that way mate


If the kids were looking at buying Void minis for their Daemonhunters army, then the staff have a point. Otherwise, yeah... but most stores will do that (and no, that's not my way of saying I think it's a good thing; only a common thing). Ford salespeople don't say good things about Hondas. Pepsi doesn't say good things about Coke. Microsoft doesn't say good things about Apple. It's deceptive to slag the competition if there's no real reason to. It lacks class. It lacks honesty. It's a lot of bad things... but it's not an exclusively GW thing. I've heard enough independent store owners slag GW right back, so it's definitely a two-way street. I'm sure your store was a good one and I'm really sorry to hear that the local GW was doing something so evil... but I'm not surprised.

OK, maybe not for instore or tournament gaming but, they're alright for at home and club games.

neXus6
18-04-2006, 01:52
I'm going to have to disagree with that brutal generalisation of GW staff.
Yes you get staff that are absolute w*nk*ers but not all of them are like that. The staff in my local GW are brilliant and I have never heard then be like that. Infact if some is trying to find a certain type of scenery or paint that GW simply don't do they direct them to the nearest half decent model shop.

Lockjaw
18-04-2006, 06:17
i'm a wargamer, yeah i mostly play warhammer and other GW games, but i also play mageknight, fairy meat, pirates, geting into axis and allies, and heroclix

Brushmonkey
18-04-2006, 09:48
I'm going to have to disagree with that brutal generalisation of GW staff.
Yes you get staff that are absolute w*nk*ers but not all of them are like that. The staff in my local GW are brilliant and I have never heard then be like that. Infact if some is trying to find a certain type of scenery or paint that GW simply don't do they direct them to the nearest half decent model shop.

Indeed, i've found GW staff to be extremely helpful. Our local GW has quite happily sent folks in the right direction when asked if they sell:

1. Computer games.
2. Dungeons and Dragons.
3. Aifix.
4. CCGs, Warmachine and Starship Troopers.
5. Anything to do with lighthouses (which was a bit odd).

The staff are quite knowlegeable about most of that stuff (apart from lighthouses) and so they had a nice chat with the person, offered them an intro game on a GW game, and directions on how to get what they wanted.

Now I know that the staff were being the spawn of satan by treating another person this way and Games Workshop should probably be on trial for human right violations for condoning it...;)

On the other hand, perhaps its time some folks grew up?

If you don't like something, yet still continue to associate yourself with it, it says a lot about you.

Gaebriel
18-04-2006, 09:53
... my god, how can any of you people swallow any of this "GW Hobby" crap?, its just another way that games workshop use to make out that they invented the whole concept of wargaming, and that anyone who doesnt play their products is some sort of mentally deficient retard.
the only 'tards round here are those who blindly listen to the over priced GW propaganda machine, which tirelessly works night and day to produce low quality, badly proof read books and materials which they then peddle to pre pubescents for the price of a remortgage. ...
And you are? :D

I do not swallow the "GW Hobby crap" - I embrace it. With the full awarence that it's part of wargaming and not wargaming itself.

Bubble Ghost
18-04-2006, 11:21
I'm of the opinion that, while GW's big corporate non-cuddliness can be distasteful, it's naive to deny that there is a difference between casual GW gaming and wargaming as a more serious, dedicated pastime. I'm a GW gamer, not a wargamer. I don't have the inclination to invest the time or effort into wargaming as a whole - I simply don't care that much about it these days, as it's just one of many things battling for my time.

In short, the saturation and accessibility of GW games compared with wargaming in general, thanks to their stores, is such that I can play their games on their terms relatively effortlessly. Were GW to disappear, I would pretty much stop wargaming. And I have no problem with this.

Sojourner
18-04-2006, 11:26
I don't understand the argument. What's the difference?

neXus6
18-04-2006, 12:50
I can't really see accessability as a real reason for seeing a separation. These days it is just as easy to get warmachine, SST or even the likes of WWII wargames, infact I'd probably put money on the WWII ones being a lot older than anything GWs come up with. The only exception being if the only place you have to play is in a GW shop.

As for the difference, the difference is GW is trying to carve out their own area. If you say to a kid that they are part of the GW Hobby they will be at the very least slightly inclined to never touch anything done by anyone else. It is basicly a way to help people identify with GW better and stick with them (atleast till they grow up and get bored). If you inform a parent that it is "the GW Hobby" their child is into they too will not think about getting anything from anywhere else so yeah it pretty much is just "propaganda/subtle advertising," and in the long run it could easily cause damage to wargaming in general.

Aside from that my main point is just not liking being called something I'm not, I wouldn't like to be called English, I wouldn't like to be called a Goth or Emo kid and I wouldn't like to be called a member of "the GW Hobby" when I am a wargamer.

Brushmonkey
18-04-2006, 13:23
Then call yourself a wargamer. Who cares?

The Ape
18-04-2006, 13:44
Iv always associated the wargamer tag with professors standing around a large map, moving models around whilst stroking the beards and muttering about "what-if's".

The GW Hobby (whether it exists independently to, or as part of wargaming) either conjures up (negative) images of sweaty adolescents on a hot summer day in a store with no air conditioning (hello leicester!) or (positive) images of mates having a laugh on a vets night, and then going for a couple of drinks afterwards.

The "GW Hobby" is more a specific niche of the wargame hobby, then outside it.

Brushmonkey
18-04-2006, 14:13
Spot on. Here is your bannan flavoured cookie. BTW, I may be back at Vets Night soon.

Mikhaila
18-04-2006, 14:23
The way the original question is phrased makes this a useless arguement. But I guess people need to get in their daily GW bashing.

Orbital
18-04-2006, 14:28
The way the original question is phrased makes this a useless arguement. But I guess people need to get in their daily GW bashing.

Agreed. The original question definitely states there's a "right" and "wrong" answer, i.e. "either you think what I think or you 'bow to propaganda'". Though phrased as a question, I think it's clear it wasn't an invitation for contrasting opinions.

Orbital
18-04-2006, 14:28
OH

MY

CHRIST

ON

A

*******

BIKE!


seriously folks, some of you may remember me from the former "pr0ntent" site, and those that do remember me for not being very nice towards the good citizens of GW, however, i just dropped in on the site and was alerted to this thread.

my god, how can any of you people swallow any of this "GW Hobby" crap?, its just another way that games workshop use to make out that they invented the whole concept of wargaming, and that anyone who doesnt play their products is some sort of mentally deficient retard.
the only 'tards round here are those who blindly listen to the over priced GW propaganda machine, which tirelessly works night and day to produce low quality, badly proof read books and materials which they then peddle to pre pubescents for the price of a remortgage.

playing with little soldiers never was, isnt and never will be called anything remotely like the "GW Hobby", its called "Wargaming".
you dont see any other companies trying to hijack the hobby do you??, no, theres no mention in any of WOTCs CCG manuals as card games being the "WoTC Hobby" (lol, live tonight!!!, the world WoTC hobby texas hold em poker championships!!!11!!!!1one!1"), i dont see privateer referring to their corner of the market as "the privateer dogma", hell, i dont see coca cola describing drinking as being the "coca cola company ingestion of fluids hobby", so can someone please explain why, other than being a bunch of smug ********, GW likes to think that its over priced peddlings are in some way the be all and end all of the market.

fanboys may now attempt to conduct a flimsy defence....

How's the ritalin working out?

sliganian
18-04-2006, 14:30
I think the real question / issue that was dodged around at the very start of the thread is this:

Is Warhammer / Warhammer 40K an actual 'wargame' or just a 'game'?

To some, a 'Wargame' is an attempt at battle simulation, usually using somewhat detailed rules and always based in some historical setting. In this context, WHFB/40K are not even REMOTELY close to being 'proper' wargames. The settings are fantastical and the rules are too abstracted.

However, as they are 'games that deal with war', someone will no doubt smugly point out that that could make one a 'wargamer' if they play WHFB or 40K.

For my part, since I only really muck around with GW stuff, I guess I am a 'hobbyist', as the term 'Wargamer' to me would imply a much more hardcore style of game play than what comes with GW product. If I modeled and played armies such as Saracens or Carthaginians, then I'd be a 'wargamer'.

Grimshawl
18-04-2006, 15:37
Definitely count me as a Wargamer or just gamer, but definitely not a GW hobbiest or any such crap like that, although its inconvenient I sometimes feel lucky to live in the USA where GW hasnt got such a stranglehold like it seems to in the UK on Gamers minds and just in general a high saturation point were so many people have fallen victum to GW being "The Hobby" etc. etc.,, pompous rheteric,, etc.

and although the original question is phrased with a slant or bias it has still invited much discusion obviously, looks at multible pages of current discusion, insinuating that only a perfictly unbiased question can invite or generate discusion of a topic is a fairly flawed statement in itself.

gathering_darkness
18-04-2006, 15:42
hmm, what about if you play warhammer historical battles? is that part of the "GW hobby" or are you a wargamer? or are you somesort of hybrid-mongral? The rules for WAB are abstract, and it lets you fight with armies from periods that never met such as Vikings against Imperial Romans, nothing new DBA/DBM have allowed this for years.
The point i'm making though is that DBA is an accepted wargames ruleset, but if you use them to play non historical battles does that invalidate it as a wargame? I personally do not think so, and the people that play these games (often at tournaments) are wargamers, in the same way that people who play WFB or 40K are wargamers. The GW hobby is a niche within Fantasy Wargaming, in much the same way as the people who play Shako exclusively are a niche within Napoleonic wargaming, its just that no other company is big enough to claim that it alone is a hobby rather than a niche.
GW has the luxury of being big enough to claim that it is a hobby and the majority of its customers are ignorant enough to belive that there is no other wargaming other than the GW way.

Captain Brown
18-04-2006, 15:55
I fell it is both; there is a war gaming aspect and a hobby aspect. I collect, paint, plan, plot and play.

Gaebriel
18-04-2006, 16:31
I still find it hard to believe that there are people, especially with access to the internet, who could think GW games are the only games on the planet. Unless they're kiddies, whose only outer-world contact is the GW store, and they don't look left and right when going there, I don't think anyone could be seriously made believe. Okay, GW aims at that, but exaggeration is always a good marketing tool. I find the idea of the GW hobby is a good marketing idea, which rounds off the company's product-lines. All in all I see no harm done, and technically I don't see why there's hate projected at that idea - unless it's general hate towards GW, directed at one of GW's most public instruments...

Brushmonkey
18-04-2006, 17:40
Funny, GW have never told me or anyone else I know that they are the be-all-end-all of the wargaming hobby. Staff have always been happy to discuss other games and systems.

Again, this reflects badly on 'foreign' GW stores, for thats where this image seems to come from.

I'll slightly confused as to why people need to badge themselves at all.

neXus6
18-04-2006, 17:44
See thats the thing I would probably be just as happy not giving myself a "badge" at all. But considering GW are pretty much trying to push a badge onto it's customers that gives me a stronger feeling to dig in to being a wargamer.

I don't hate GW for doing it, I just see it as a very bad and slightly underhanded marketing ploy. There are better ways of solidifying your market dominance, keep increasing standards, stop raising prices all the time, be generally nicer all those give positive views on the company rather than trying to distance your product from "the rest."

Chuckaroobob
18-04-2006, 17:49
I've always thought of myself as a wargamer, and most of the games I play happen to be by GW, the only recent exceptions have been "K-Bar and Bayonet" and "Flames of War".

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-04-2006, 18:49
OH

MY

CHRIST

ON

A

*******

BIKE!


seriously folks, some of you may remember me from the former "pr0ntent" site, and those that do remember me for not being very nice towards the good citizens of GW, however, i just dropped in on the site and was alerted to this thread.

my god, how can any of you people swallow any of this "GW Hobby" crap?, its just another way that games workshop use to make out that they invented the whole concept of wargaming, and that anyone who doesnt play their products is some sort of mentally deficient retard.
the only 'tards round here are those who blindly listen to the over priced GW propaganda machine, which tirelessly works night and day to produce low quality, badly proof read books and materials which they then peddle to pre pubescents for the price of a remortgage.

playing with little soldiers never was, isnt and never will be called anything remotely like the "GW Hobby", its called "Wargaming".
you dont see any other companies trying to hijack the hobby do you??, no, theres no mention in any of WOTCs CCG manuals as card games being the "WoTC Hobby" (lol, live tonight!!!, the world WoTC hobby texas hold em poker championships!!!11!!!!1one!1"), i dont see privateer referring to their corner of the market as "the privateer dogma", hell, i dont see coca cola describing drinking as being the "coca cola company ingestion of fluids hobby", so can someone please explain why, other than being a bunch of smug ********, GW likes to think that its over priced peddlings are in some way the be all and end all of the market.

fanboys may now attempt to conduct a flimsy defence....

One fanboy, coming right up.

I have worked for GW. I have received GW training. I was paid to promote the hobby. That is, the modelling, painting, gaming, collecting, army writing, fiction reading. The whole shebang. THAT my friend is the GW Hobby. As I, and many others, have said, is a legitimate term for it. I can use GW paints, rules, models, premises, scenery and so on. It's not arrogance. I have always been aware of other Wargames, and that there is a bigger Wargaming hobby outside of GW. Hell, I myself play Magic, Demon, Vampire (not started on the new World of Darkness yet. Kind of stuck in the dark ages there) and will be going LARPing for the first time this August Bank Holiday (must remember to book that off.).

And I take being called a retard for, *shock horror* enjoying my chosen hobby very dimly. I could hurl all terms of abuse at you, considering my opinion engendered by your rather comical post, but I shall refrain.

If you hate Games Workshop so much, just stop. Stop buying it. Stop playing it. Stop talking about it. I could go on for literally hours about just how naiive, ill informed and idiotic your being, but I really cannot be arsed. It's all on this site somewhere!

Also, I have to ask, considering we're discussing the relative merits of a company that produces little Soldiers, why so much ire against GW Pika? Did they eat your Nan whilst molesting your Goldfish? Your just another person I fear might find life outside of school and college more than a shock to the system.

neXus6
18-04-2006, 18:53
See while I don't quite hold Pikachu level views, I have to disagree.


That is, the modelling, painting, gaming, collecting, army writing, fiction reading.
Those are ALL aspects of ALL wargames not just part of GW, other companies produce more than just rules and models but you don't see them trying to market themselves as "The Hobby." :rolleyes:

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-04-2006, 19:21
No, but GW, in itself, can be counted as self contained HOBBY.

Which is the point I've been trying to make.

And I have never, EVER, heard GW try to claim they are the be all and end all of Hobby Wargaming. They have, rightly in my opinion, claimed they themselves are *a* Hobby, but they have never claimed to be *the* Hobby.

You do see the difference here, right?

neXus6
18-04-2006, 19:34
Oh I do get what you are saying I'm capable of free discussion. :)

But I do have vague memories of GW basicly claiming they were wargaming at some point a wee while back. The only thing I really have a problem with is the added element of separation. To me introducing kids to the world of wargaming is a lot more beneficial to the group as a whole rather than trying to hold them in the fold of "the GW Hobby."
Personally it just gives more freedom to choose and I am all for that.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-04-2006, 19:39
Well, as far as I'm aware, GW have never ever claimed that they are the be all and end all of hobby wargaming.

They do, as I pointed out, promote themselves as the Games Workshop hobby. Don't get the two confused, they are quite different!

neXus6
18-04-2006, 19:46
Oh know I'm not getting confused I just could have sworn that a while back I heard something along the lines of them having an ad or statement or something ... it might have been more along the lines of "We are the best in wargaming" or something more like that that did sound very arrogant, considering how relatively young other companies are compaired to GW.
Plus as said earlier there are the odd close minded/puritan GW staff members who would seriously push the line that all other games are rubbish and also the "GW Hobby" does allow them to pretty much say "If it's not from GW it's not for our stuff" when paint, terrain, conversions and the like are involved. I don't like the "GW Hobby" line as a vehicle for pushing that kind of view which is really what it seems to be there for.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-04-2006, 19:57
Well, with regard to promoting your products over others, that just common sense when your running a business.

Take Ratners, and formerly *very* popular, as in Britains biggest, Jewellers. Their CEO went on record that they owed their success to shoddy, cheap products, over inflated prices, and a gullible public. Guess what? Their shares collapsed, he got fired, and the company is never likely to recover! *EDIT* got the company wrong. It was Ratners. Wintermure reliably informs me H Samuel later bought up the aftermath!

And if your using their premises, or attending something they've organised, it's not exactly unreasonable to expect you to only use their models, is it? If you want to use non-GW models in a GW game, start a gaming club. As long as you have a uniform look to your army (as in every Missile Launcher is the same model, and your Dark Elf Executioner stand ins are actually wielding Great Weapons) who can really complain?

erion
18-04-2006, 20:06
Around here, we refer to all things wargaming (GW and otherwise), RPG, CCG and video game related collectively as "geekery" and/or "nerditry".

It helps keep the egos from swelling when we remind people of their roots.

neXus6
18-04-2006, 20:12
:p
I agree it is ruthless business sence to do it, if they manage to make a whole generation of kids believe that the GW hobby is the main thing rather than GW being part of wargaming they get what they want. Most of the kids give up by the age of 15/16 but while going through that 3 or 4 year period of parents income they want to make damn sure none of them wander off.

The real problem is that the more competition GW has the better GW has to be in the long run so anything that can help knock down the growth of other companies while they are still small doesn't really seem all that great a thing to me.

Plus I don't like being told what I'm a part of damn it. :p ;)

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-04-2006, 20:24
I do agree that although the competition may not, individually, be a threat to GWs share of the Market (around 40 odd percent last I heard. This isn't to be taken as gospel though!) if the buying public start going into these different companies, all it takes really is for one or two of them to properly exploit increased custom to come up seemingly from nowhere.

Now, with the differing overheads of the companies, I'm still happy that GW aren't necessarily overcharging for their products. Sure, other companies appear cheaper, and you use less models for their games, but GW are paying for more than just rule and miniature production with their prices. When put into that fairly specific context, only the most obstinate minds (Pika, Trenchie) would disagree.

And lets not forget, for a fair while, GW were more or less the be all and end all of Fantasy and Sci-Fi Wargaming (D&D being more roleplaying). That has changed now though. There is competition, which although small fry, isn't guaranteed to stay that way!

neXus6
18-04-2006, 20:30
It is also a bit sad that the "GW Hobby" idea is pretty much purely based around LotR, 40k and Fantasy. I mean for all intensive purposes all the other games are dead, or at the very least have so little support that they may as well be.

Games like Necromunda, Mordheim, Blood Bowl and especially Space Hulk were great games that also required few models to play. Brilliant for beginners. Problem is GW seems to see the fact that because you require less models you will spend less money (despite the fact that most people who play those games have more than 1 gang/team/warband), meanwhile I really think these games would be perfect to compete with the likes of Warmachine. That said GW has a habbit of "fixing" things that don't need to be fixed. The guff that was Necromunda Underhive for example. :rolleyes:
*clings onto his hardback Necromunda Rulebook with Underhive in* :p

Ah well, I can but hope that I'm still into wargaming when some of the competition finaly squares up to GW.

Hlokk
18-04-2006, 20:32
I think the whole concept of the GW hobby is a marketing exercise, thats all. We've seen it with things like Virgin promoting the Virgin brand through virgin Cola, trains, plains, cancer insurance etc (although there is a funny story involving one of my arabic friends misinterpretting what he thought a "virgin Megastore" was).

Same thing here, but different scale. Virgin Megastores aims to support you through all aspects of life. Those who grew up with the stores now travel and trust the virgin brand. GW is aiming to support the hobbyist through their gaming "career" (why do people call it that?), from providing direct sales to hoby support, and a number of touchpoints for customers to access information.

Companies like Coca cola attribute 95% of their net worth to their brand. However, there are issues with transferability of brand names. For example, Cocacola or Macdonalds could not launch into Clothing because their brand is automatically associated with food/drink. Similarly, GW could not expand into clothing because the GW brand is only strong in the wargaming market.

What GW are doing is not only trying to develop a brand people trust (and thus increase price elasticity for the prestige associated with that brand) but to also build barriers to entry for competitors for other mini companies like mongoose etc.

The problem is that:
a: To those who know a bit about the market, GW is assoicated with obscene prices, bad business tactics and disregard for the customer
b: Is the brand actually worth that much? To me, it isnt. I'd switch to another brand if it was actually easy to do so.

Cheesejoff
18-04-2006, 20:35
Oh know I'm not getting confused I just could have sworn that a while back I heard something along the lines of them having an ad or statement or something ... it might have been more along the lines of "We are the best in wargaming" or something more like that that did sound very arrogant, considering how relatively young other companies are compaired to GW.


I think you mean Paul Sawyer's statement in WD 300 when he said GW was the no. 1 wargaming company in the world. However he remembered himself hoping that GW was going to be the best about 20 years ago, so it wasn't really a boast as such, it was just him saying that his hope came true.

And damn, I can still remember that without looking it up. Engage Uber m3mory mode!

Crazy Harborc
18-04-2006, 21:36
I am into the hobby of wargaming. GW is the best known single company catering to the wargaming hobby market.......at this time.

I saw/read/heard players refer to the "hobby of GW" before I read it coming from GW itself.

These days I think of it as a claim/phrase used by people who....well, just haven't been exposed to the "rest of the wargaming hobby".

neXus6
18-04-2006, 21:42
That's certainly one of the best ways to put it I've seen, nice one Harborc.

Pikachu
18-04-2006, 21:49
I am into the hobby of wargaming. GW is the best known single company catering to the wargaming hobby market.......at this time.

I saw/read/heard players refer to the "hobby of GW" before I read it coming from GW itself.

These days I think of it as a claim/phrase used by people who....well, just haven't been exposed to the "rest of the wargaming hobby".

well put, now all we proper gamers need to do is undo the brainwashing.

Brimstone
18-04-2006, 22:02
Pikachu you can obviously post in a articulate manner, please try to do so in future in a manner that doesn't break forum rules and results in the deletion of your post.

The Warseer Inquisition

neXus6
18-04-2006, 22:05
Off topic: I know it's not a competition but I do prefer your way of handling things Brimstone. Wintermute would have probably seen Pika's first post and locked the thread. :rolleyes:
Good work. :)

Pikachu
18-04-2006, 22:12
aww crap!, least you could have done is save a copy of that massive post so i could have edited it into a more "agreeable" piece of prose, i spent the best part of an hour writing that.

GRRR!:mad:

neXus6
18-04-2006, 22:14
Pika I think orbital Quoted it. Unless Brim got that one to.
:p

Brimstone
18-04-2006, 22:16
OK it's back please edit it and remove the swearing & agressive posting/mild flaming etc along with the rest, you may want to read the posting guidelines first and remember Warseer is a PG-13 forum.

If it's still unsuitable I will delete it again I'm not playing delete/undelete all night.

Shield of Freedom
18-04-2006, 22:16
um, in regards to things taking over (especialy the quote from Pikachu earlier about the coca cola company) when it comes to thier genre or market. It happens ALL the time.

How many times have you heard someone say they need to "xeroxtm" something as opposed to just "copying" it.

The last time you cut yourself did you say, "ouch, I need an adhesive bandage" or did you say "ouch, I need a bandaidtm?"

The last time you got thirsty at a party or barbeque did you say "I need a cola" or did you say "I need a coke" and still picked up the pepsi?

Sometimes a particular product becomes synonymus with it's general catagory.

You can call yourself a Wargamer, that's fine.

If ALL you do however is GW related, then you ARE a GW hobbyist. If you're like me who does everything (right now my favorite wargame is Flames of War a 15mm WW2 wargame, but I'm still searching through the Eldar rumor lists) then just call youself a gamer.

RevEv
18-04-2006, 22:22
I have already stated my case but I would just like to reply to Pikachu's fatuous comment.

I have not been brainwashed.

I, like many thousands around the globe who may not post on this site, have been brought in to 'the hobby' of wargaming by GW. For this I am grateful as it gives a welcome release from the day job - on the worst days I have been known to start painting at 10pm and get to bed at gone 2/3am. Through being in to GW I can attribute one job directly (a key timers position) and one indirectly (a supply teachers post, of which I was informed of by a contact I made while a key timer). I have made some really good friends, including my son's Godfather and, because I go in to the stores and talk to the staff on a regular basis, I find I make more whenever I move (a regular occurence in my current job).


Anyone who truly wishes to do well in any hobby will become immersed in the culture surrounding that hobby. It is inevitable. I used to play rugby on a regular basis - I made friends that way, and I saw it as my hobby. To do well I trained regularly, both in training sessions and personal training. Now I am in to Triathlon. I train on a daily basis, some times twice a day. Again I am making friends by participating in this hobby. In neither of these cases have I been brainwashed, I have chosen to be involved in these hobbies.

GW is a hobby.
I am a hobbyist.
That is my choice, made freely and without the coercion of GW marketing.
This is not brainwashing.

Brimstone
18-04-2006, 22:23
Off topic: I know it's not a competition but I do prefer your way of handling things Brimstone. Good work. :)

Sssh you'll spoil my reputation. :p

This thread is on pretty sticky ground though so we'll just have to see where it goes from here as to how long it lasts.

Pikachu
18-04-2006, 22:28
CENSORED Version......


scuse me for one seconds while i compose myself......*ahem*

*ahem*

right...



One fanboy, coming right up.

oh goody, ill take a large fries and a coke with that please..


I have worked for GW. I have received GW training. I was paid to promote the hobby. That is, the modelling, painting, gaming, collecting, army writing, fiction reading. The whole shebang. THAT my friend is the GW Hobby.


ok, so your definition of a "hobby" is being paid (and considering GWs appalling wages, is a term used loosley) to talk down to 8 year olds?
yeah, so games workshop sells over priced models, low quality paints, poorly playtested games, barely collectable figures, easy to write army lists and badly proofread reading materials, at which point does having a full range of products qualify as being a full fledged hobby?.

case study...
airfix-humbrol do exactly the same as GW, like thus:-
airfix :- high quality affordable model and gaming kits in plastic and white metal (1/72 and 1/144 scale vehicles and troops), wargames rulesets (robogear mechs, vehicles and foot infantry).
humbrol:- affordable top quality paints in both acrylic and enamel/oil based versions, many, many, many different kinds of brushes and other modelling tools/aids (such as modelling sand, flock, static grass, buildings etc) at affordable prices.
All these modelling products are available in any modelling or wargaming shop in the world, and even large toy shops, unlike GW who like to only sell through their own stores and through selected "loyal" (ie, arselicking) independant games stores.
that said, most GW friendly indy stores will also have other ranges of modelling products in store, most of which sell better than the GW stuff.

while it is admirable that GW see fit to have everything people need in one place, which isnt always true, as some items, such as modelling clay needed for scratchbuilds or heavy conversion work, or plasticard, or fibreboard/foam sheeting is not available in GW stores, it in no way allows self promotion of their product as a full fledged hobby.
i go to a model shop, i can get anything i want for that, and i have the choice of multiple modelling supplies, im not tied down to any particular line of products, and the staff dont lie to me about the quality of products, or try to brainwash me into believing some corperate dogma , i ask a question, i get an honest answer, i do the same thing in a GW store, i get spun a yarn based on what this months WD magazine is pushing.


As I, and many others, have said, is a legitimate term for it. I can use GW paints, rules, models, premises, scenery and so on. It's not arrogance.
re read the above passage, and then tell me you are not just reciting some crap you had drummed into you by rote by a slimy area manager who is only interested in sales targets and the kickbacks he gets off the back of your work.
(this is a valid point, as the entire quotation reeks of ingrained GW dogma)


I have always been aware of other Wargames, and that there is a bigger Wargaming hobby outside of GW. Hell, I myself play Magic, Demon, Vampire (not started on the new World of Darkness yet. Kind of stuck in the dark ages there) and will be going LARPing for the first time this August Bank Holiday (must remember to book that off.).

i was playing D&D long before i even heard of GWs existance, one of the first things that attracted me to GW was the fact they had stores and i didnt have to order my stuff from a catalogue, however, as i got older, i came to realise this "high street friendliness" came with a price, both in and in personal opinion.
when the pokemon CCG came out, i had a quick look at the system, and got hooked, from there i moved onto other CCGs like M:tg, DBZ cardgame and other minor stuff, i also picked up other wargames like battletech and VOID but i still kept going to the workshop nonetheless.
however, as time marched on, i began to notice subtle changes in GWs "system" so to speak, compared to other games, GWs wargames were overpriced and lacked depth, their laughable attempts to counter the CCG fad were funny, and the GW staffs attitudes towards people like me started to become disagreeable, bordering on bare faced rudeness.
one day it hit me, stuff like that had always been there, right from day #1, as i remembered once going into the GW during my early days to buy some stuff, and i mentioned to a staffer i used to play D&D, to which he replied that D&D was crap and wouldnt be around in 10 years....here we are 12 years later and more people play D&D than any of GWs role playing systems (what there is left of them).
and then woe betide anyone that went into the GW after zocolos shop opened and made mention of it...but thats a story for another time.


And I take being called a retard for, *shock horror* enjoying my chosen hobby very dimly. I could hurl all terms of abuse at you, considering my opinion engendered by your rather comical post, but I shall refrain.

theres nothing wrong with enjoying the hobby, far from it, everyone should do things like this for the pure enjoyment of doing so, but in no way should they be looked down on because GW has decided that they are the only people "good enough" to consider themselves a self contained hobby, and thus expect everyone that has an interest in their stuff to brand themselves a GW hobbyist whore.
(before deleting/editing please note flames directed at me at bottom of post which are marked in red)


If you hate Games Workshop so much, just stop. Stop buying it. Stop playing it. Stop talking about it. I could go on for literally hours about just how naiive, ill informed and idiotic your being, but I really cannot be arsed. It's all on this site somewhere!


*snicker*
i dont buy GW anymore, havent done for years, i object to being branded by GW as being a dick for NOT wanting to buy into their over priced, low quality smug laced world.
i object to being subjected to endless dogma from GW fans who dare to take the mick out of me because i dont care about space marines anymore.


Also, I have to ask, considering we're discussing the relative merits of a company that produces little Soldiers, why so much ire against GW Pika? Did they eat your Nan whilst molesting your Goldfish? Your just another person I fear might find life outside of school and college more than a shock to the system.


lol, do you want me to call 999 for ya feller?, i hear that gunshot wounds to the foot can be fatal if not treated.

FYI, workshop took the **** out of me for years, activley discouraging me and others like me from even attempting to take an interest in other aspects of the wargaming or modelling hobby, it took a particularly slow patch in GWs release schedule for me to take up interest in a CCG, which to be honest, i thank god happenned, otherwise to this day id still be spending the best part of 50 on a single unit of unimportant troops.
i dislike workshops attitude to its customer base, and, most of all, i dislike their intense hatred (both covert and overt) of other people/companies in the industry, whom if workshop had their way, they would force them to close down and pay compensation for loss of earnings from their little, inconsequential tin pot empire.

wargaming as an entire industry is, and always will be of interest to only a minority of people, a small community of modelling and gaming enthusiasts, let the other people have their ball games and sports, they can argue about the merits of their hobby till they die of asphyxiation, ill argue about my hobby and any slights on its good name until i die of some equally horrible oxygen defficiency syndrome.


thus endeth the lesson, i couldnt be bothered to sort out mad docs terrible grammar either.

Steel_Legion
18-04-2006, 22:32
Painting is more a hobby, but i think its fair to say we are all proud to be a wargamer!

Nurglitch
18-04-2006, 22:43
thus endeth the lesson, i couldnt be bothered to sort out mad docs terrible grammar either. Possibly the funniest line of this thread. Siggable, in fact. :D

Pikachu
18-04-2006, 22:47
lol, w0ot im famous.

t-tauri
18-04-2006, 23:03
case study...
airfix-humbrol do exactly the same as GW, like thus:-
airfix :- high quality affordable model and gaming kits in plastic and white metal (1/72 and 1/144 scale vehicles and troops), wargames rulesets (robogear mechs, vehicles and foot infantry).
humbrol:- affordable top quality paints in both acrylic and enamel/oil based versions, many, many, many different kinds of brushes and other modelling tools/aids (such as modelling sand, flock, static grass, buildings etc) at affordable prices..
Eh? Airfix white metal? :wtf:
Robogear-:D
Humbrol-"Top Quality":wtf:

You've clearly been struck by too many lightning bolts. Why post on a GW inspired board if you've this level of negativity?

neXus6
18-04-2006, 23:07
While being a GW inspired board, Portent and now this forum (I next to never use the new name I don't like it. :p) are both far more, with RM and in the old days the Wastes and all sorts of other non GW fun things. :)

Pikachu
18-04-2006, 23:09
Eh? Airfix white metal? :wtf:

yeah, you can get some of the more advanced kits that have white metal/lead parts


Robogear-:D

robogear is ace, it brings the fun back into wargaming....spring loaded gins *ptwang!*....*crump*, plus, you can get the boxed game with 2 mechs, foot troops, plastic scenery, paints, brushes, core book and source book for 30...what more do you want?.


Humbrol-"Top Quality":wtf:

i think oyull find humbrol were making model paints long, long, long before citadel colour showed up.
humbrol and tamiya acrylic paints are way superior to citadels, they dont dry up as fast, you get the same amount per pot as you do with GW, and they cost 1 per pot.


You've clearly been struck by too many lightning bolts. Why post on a GW inspired board if you've this level of negativity?

please read the entire thread before shooting your mouth off, then maybe things will become clearer.

RevEv
18-04-2006, 23:20
Quote:
You've clearly been struck by too many lightning bolts. Why post on a GW inspired board if you've this level of negativity?

please read the entire thread before shooting your mouth off, then maybe things will become clearer.

Sorry - I second his sentiments.... and I have read the whole thread.

t-tauri
18-04-2006, 23:29
please read the entire thread before shooting your mouth off, then maybe things will become clearer.
You seem to be a troll of the first order. If you read the thread you'll see I've already posted on the first page.

I'm unaware of any kits with white metal parts produced by Airfix. Most of the kits produced by them are the same ones I made when I was ten. Rather than shooting your mouth some more how about a link?

Humbrol enamels were state of the art thirty years ago. They are not quite so good these days. Any coolminiornot minis painted in Humbrol enamels? Even Humbrol acrylics? No links to those either? No?


robogear is ace, it brings the fun back into wargaming....spring loaded gins *ptwang!*....*crump*, plus, you can get the boxed game with 2 mechs, foot troops, plastic scenery, paints, brushes, core book and source book for 30...what more do you want?.

Decent miniatures? All I'd use is the platformer bits. Maybe some of the kits for Ork conversions.

Gaebriel
19-04-2006, 00:01
well put, now all we proper gamers need to do is undo the brainwashing.
I don't understand the brainwashed argument. It's clear to see, we have a lot of people who are aware of wargaming beyond the GW Hobby, and still like to use the latter to identify a specific niche. It's ridiculous to say the GW Hobby doesn't exist, as ridiculous as saying the GW Hobby is wargaming.

Mikhaila
20-04-2006, 03:19
If someone wants to play GW games and consider GW to be a hobby, that's fine. If you want to call yourself a wargamer, a painter, a collector, a scultor, or whatever, that's fine too. Anyone has the right to decide what their hobby is, and what they consider themselves.

snurl
20-04-2006, 06:40
It would be nice to see GW branch out into historical models and games...
Warhammer panzer battles.........i can see it now.....

Mikhaila
20-04-2006, 12:56
Funny you should say that. The guy that wrote WPB is who designed Flames of War, the first historical game that my shop carries. It plays well, and sales are very solid.

philbrad2
20-04-2006, 14:07
I am a modeller and painter and were modelling and painting for a LONGGGGGG time before I ever got into GW wargaming. The 'hobby' aspect GW seem to push as their own is primarily (now) plastic modelling which has been around for some 40 years and modelling in general for thousands of years. GW seek to put their own interpretiion of the 'hobby' by giving the 'hobbyist ' access to everythign they would need to carryout the hobby from glue to a rulebook.

How many of those that make models, out side of GW, or have been GW modelling for a long time (I stand in both camps) use exclusively GW's tools, glue, brushes, paint etc..? I reckon not that many. How many seek to expand their 'hobby' skills outside of GW's publications, methods, website etc... ? again I reckon a fair few. For those at the less experienced end of the 'hobby' GW may appear to be the be all and end all, GW offer everything you'd need in a one-stop-shop nowadays, why bother to find someone else or another brand? Those that either look beyond GW or seek alternatives will find they are out there.

Modelling and Wargaming were around for a long time before GW ever existed, however with Wargaming they have become the 'Coca Cola' of it. There are other brands but the red tin is the one everyone knows. its all a part of GW becoming a brand and not just a company who make toy soldiers. And of course for those that buy their GW 'toy soldiers' there's GW glue, and GW paint to build and paint them with, GW flock to do the bases and you can play GW's wargames using GW dice, rulers and terrain on a GW grass mat, you can even do it whilst wearing a GW T Shirt! Kudos to GW they have all the bases covered and with the prices they charge their 'hobby' kit is at a premium price.

Sooner or later 'hobbyists' will look beyond GW's hobby horizon, which to be fair is expanding, look at the forthcoming CoD urban basing kits and FW items for that, and see there are other things out their in Wargaming land if they look hard enough. If they want to make the break- that is of course up to them ;)

:chrome:

jfrazell
20-04-2006, 14:35
Neither.

My hobby is target shooting, and being the designated packmule/wallet for the family rugrats.

I play with toy soldiers. These are currently GW toy soldiers, but thats not limited to them. Painting etc, very little GW items. With the exception of certain paints I prefer Vellejo, old Citadel, or testors higher end model paints. Brushes and everything else are from hobby stores.

Antaeus
20-04-2006, 14:43
I would describe myself as a wargamer (well, at the moment more of an ex-wargamer). I can see why this is an issue, though - when I told my girlfriend I was a gamer, her first reaction was "You mean Warhammer?"

They have become rather synonymous, for many, with the wargaming hobby, haven't they?

Osbad
20-04-2006, 16:30
Sadly they have. I too consider myself a "wargamer" who happens to play some GW games amongst games of other manufacturers. While I am grateful to GW for being so accessible (if they didn't have high street shops, I wouldn't have got into the hobby as it was the ability to look at the little models up close that swung me), I do get irritated by what feels like their "arrogance" at dismissing the wider hobby. I don't consider terrain-making to be "GW" for instance, particularly as most of the materials required come from B&Q and the like!

To narrow "the hobby" to "GW" is as ridiculous (in my view) as calling "shopping" something like "The Tesco Hobby". GW are the biggest player but it is no more "their" hobby than it is anyone else's!

Mad Doc Grotsnik
24-04-2006, 14:00
Pikachu. People like you make people like me want to drill out their own eyes in utter frustration.

Why? Because for someone who claims to know soooo much about GWs practices, you actually know ******** all about any of it. And yet you pass it off as truth.

Thats called LYING. And lying is bad. Wicked even. Hell, if you do it to a certain degree, it ceases to be lying, and becomes Slander and Libel, and then the real trouble begins.

If you don't like GW, at least go and find legitimate reasons to do so. Other than half arsed rumours and that off the Interweb.

Varanus
24-04-2006, 15:47
As this thread was baited from the beginning, I'll take the plunge and post my few cents worth of opinion.
I consider myself a gamer, who happens to play Games Workshop games and use a great deal of GW product. According to GW, that makes me part of the "Games Workshop Hobby" or a "Games Workshop Hobbyist".
Now ask me if I care?

I cannot for the life of me understand this need to bash Games Workshop at every opportunity. They are no better or no worse than many corporations in their position.
At the risk of going out of context for a moment, do you Games Workshop detractors realize that there are real villains out there in the business world doing real harm and causing real damage for sake of pursuing greater profits yet you would maintain all this rancor against a company that makes toy soldiers?
I would humbly suggest you folks need to put your feelings and energies to better uses and bash companies that really are in need of a good thrashing.

The Ape
24-04-2006, 16:12
Pikachu. People like you make people like me want to drill out their own eyes in utter frustration.

Why? Because for someone who claims to know soooo much about GWs practices, you actually know ******** all about any of it. And yet you pass it off as truth.

Thats called LYING. And lying is bad. Wicked even. Hell, if you do it to a certain degree, it ceases to be lying, and becomes Slander and Libel, and then the real trouble begins.

If you don't like GW, at least go and find legitimate reasons to do so. Other than half arsed rumours and that off the Interweb.

Take a deep breath, count to 10 and breathe out...

And relax...

Orbital
24-04-2006, 18:12
Pikachu. People like you make people like me want to drill out their own eyes in utter frustration.

[off topic]MDG, I feel your pain. After running around the net for more than 10 years, using forums of almost every kind, I've been driven dangerously close to seppuku more times than I can count.

There are some things about using the internet and meeting other people who use the internet that you have to always keep in mind:
1. Semi-anonymity in a consequence-free environment emboldens some people to abandon everything they know about courtesy, logic, respect, or their own dignity.
2. They've always got a reason to blame someone or something else for this behavior.
3. A jack russel terrier barks, and the barking feels good, so he barks more, and that feels good, so he barks even more. People who are like this don't actually want to listen, change, be persuaded, be influenced; they just love the barking.
4. You'll never, ever change their minds or get rid of them. Even if the person in question gets banned or otherwise removed, someone else will step in to take their place.
5. This is the most important part of all: If you engage people like this head-on, you turn into one of them. Just think of how many times you've seen an otherwise reasonable person turn into a raving lunatic because they're being driven crazy by some illogical, senseless twerp on the internet.

There are lots of idiots and losers on the internet. Some of them are here on Warseer. We all know who they are. Don't engage them; let the moderators do that (because they can actually follow up their threats with action). Instead, just feel sorry for them... because once step 1 happens to a person, they're the loser.[/off topic]

Nurglitch
24-04-2006, 19:18
There's lots of pots and kettles in this thread...;)

Orbital
24-04-2006, 19:29
There's lots of pots and kettles in this thread...;)

Well, I didn't want to use your name :)

Morathi's Darkest Sin
24-04-2006, 23:25
I have to agree that it's not the only part of the wargamming hobby.. I play Heroclix, B5wars and now A Call to Arms, Mechwarrior and Legend of the 5 Rings to name a few.

Although GW certainly has absorbed more of my cash than any of the others... as to recognition, not so sure when ever I bring up Warhammer before I've said it's name more often than not people say.. oh you mean Dungeons and Dragons.. which I think is still probably the most recognised gaming product without doubt.

I also Play alot of CCG's including Magic, Lot5r, B5, Vampire TES (previosuly Jyhad) and also Pokemon. (Although not for a while, and I'm only still buying cards now as I play to teach my 2yr how to play it in a few years and don't want to miss out on anything cool if he really likes it.)

Roleplaying games also float my boat, and although I only have some limited D&D stuff as I'm not their biggest fan, I have Loads (250+ books) of the World of Darkness. Old not new btw.. the nwod is utter ..... well I prefer not to say nasty things if I can help it so I'll let that trail off. Oh plus I have Warhammer RP, Exalted, Lot5r, Star Trek and Star Wars.

Console games take up time as well.. Oblivion on my 360 is getting a lot of play atm.. even thought it seems I have a duff copy that is getting worse and worse for disc read errors and I will have to buy a 2nd copy now as I lost my receipt for Tesco. :mad:

Anyways as someone said on the first page (well I think it was the 1st page) I simply consider myself a Gamer. :)

Bubble Ghost
26-04-2006, 10:32
At the risk of going out of context for a moment, do you Games Workshop detractors realize that there are real villains out there in the business world doing real harm and causing real damage for sake of pursuing greater profits yet you would maintain all this rancor against a company that makes toy soldiers?

True. And not just true, I mean the portentous, fundamental sort of TRUE. you get on Budweiser adverts. GW's prices are a bit high, and they invented a term to explain that what they do is more than just games. In so doing, they refer only to their own products. Well call an exorcist quick, pure evil is afoot.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
02-05-2006, 21:33
And don't forget that they also dare to turn a profit, and pay little attention to some whinging little kid who can't fathom how to best a certain army!

The Ape
02-05-2006, 21:43
Are you trying to bait people again doc?

Brimstone
02-05-2006, 21:48
This thread is on pretty sticky ground though so we'll just have to see where it goes from here as to how long it lasts.

I did say this thread was on sticky ground and now it's gone straight down the crapper.

In order to avoid it turning into a flame war this thread is now closed.

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