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View Full Version : Mournfang Cavalry point for point superior to Chaos Knights?



PurpleSun
17-11-2011, 23:23
I play both Warriors of Chaos and Ogre Kingdoms. I have always been a huge fan of Chaos Knights (even considering what 8th Edition did to them). However, I'm starting to think that my new Mournfang Cavalry are far superior point for point. I am curious what others think...

For around 300 points, you can have 5 Knights of Khorne with command, and for about the same points, you can have 4 Mournfangs with heavy armor, ironfists, and command.

The Mournfang have better movement (8 to 7) and more wounds (12 compared to 5). Mournfang have better damage output with an average of 8 S5 impact hits and 4 stomps (against infantry). They also have 16 attacks from their mounts compared to the Knight's 5 (or 10 according to some). The Mournfang have comparable defenses with a 2+/6++ compared to just a 1+ with the Knights.

Anybody else seeing the numbers leaning heavily towards the Mournfangs?

Xerkics
18-11-2011, 00:38
True but have you seen the size of mournfangs? They are on chariot bases and also they are a new book and chaos wars were designed for a different edition.

Vepr
18-11-2011, 00:42
Yes but there is always give and take. Compare the tyrant to a kitted out chaos lords now or marauders to... well it is hard to compare those SOBs to anything anyone else has... :p

Tzeentch Lover
18-11-2011, 00:49
Comparable? Sure. Superior? I don't think so.

You can actually get 6 Knights+MoK+FC for 300pts, not just 5.

Sure, the 'Fangs have more potential damage(on the charge), but the Knights are not without benefits of their own.

WS5 and I5 are huge.
Smaller footprint!
+1 armor actually is a good bit better than +2. It makes S5 have much less bite and you still get a +2 against S4.
1 Knight killed by cannon>>>>>>> 1 Mournfang killed by cannon.
Magic attacks. Because that one VC player will spring the Carn Wraiths on you when you least expect it. ;)
VS Purple Sun: Knights lose a guy. Mounfangs lose 2.
Frenzy=ItP.

sulla
18-11-2011, 02:48
All those things above are purely situational. There are just as many times you would prefer the large bases and multiwounds of the mournfangs over the iron-hard knights. Vs a terrorgeist, for example, or vs a doom diver.

Yes Mournfangs are better than Chaos Knights; they certainly eat through my DE or Beastmen quicker, anyway. They have the better banner too, I think.

Not sure I'd prefer them if I had cannons, though. Like all big guys, they are better vs non-cannon armies.

But in general, Mournfangs are the new king of cav*. Note, they still have weaknesses; low I, poor Ld. Low ws; most of their hitting power comes on the charge from impacts, banner and stomps; not the actual attacks.

*Once players start bringing the new rhinox rider trial rules from forgeworld, their mournfang little brothers may well get left behind.

Duke Ramulots
18-11-2011, 03:45
Mournfang cav are awe-inspiring, But they are very dependant on the charge where chaos knights do not require the charge to be killy. I do think the Mournfangs are a bit more bang for the buck if used right.

Urgat
18-11-2011, 06:09
All those things above are purely situational. There are just as many times you would prefer the large bases and multiwounds of the mournfangs over the iron-hard knights. Vs a terrorgeist, for example, or vs a doom diver.

Hardly. A couple templates/weird shooting versus all the melee situations?

Evil Hypnotist
18-11-2011, 07:18
I witnessed my first Mournfang charge last weekend. Combined with the banner that gives your opponent ASL (and re-rolling 1s on the charge) I think 4, or maybe 5 Mournfangs killed 22 of my friend's 30-strong Swordmasters unit before they got to hit back. Considering how often I haven been on the recieving end of those Swordmasters, my jaw hit the floor when I saw the damge they had taken.

Scammel
18-11-2011, 07:26
Evidently something went wrong then - the banner does not simply 'make' the SM strike last, they have to be hit by it's shooting attack, which goes at I2 in combat. Those SM should have taken a fair few chunks out of the MF.

Rosstifer
18-11-2011, 08:58
Well Mournfangs must be pretty decent, an army with 3 units of 4 Mournfangs just won a 100 player Tournament in England (I know nothing about the comp though, and the player obviously knew what he was doing). The statline is pretty intimidating, I have yet to face them but I'm not sure what I'll try. Maybe lots of Khorne Marauders? Mournfangs seem like they'll go through elite infantry like Chaos Warriors without much hassle.

AlphariusOmegon20
18-11-2011, 09:00
Mournfangs also don't come with a magical weapon as standard. CK do.

Mournfangs don't get ward saves, Ck can as an upgrade.

Mournfangs actually break from combat somewhat easily. CK can purchase the "screw you, I'm staying stuck in" banner.

Evil Hypnotist
18-11-2011, 09:16
Evidently something went wrong then - the banner does not simply 'make' the SM strike last, they have to be hit by it's shooting attack, which goes at I2 in combat. Those SM should have taken a fair few chunks out of the MF.

That explains a lot, the Ogre player did the shooting attack but none of us realised it should have gone in at I2. Cheers, I will let him know for next time.

jtrowell
18-11-2011, 09:24
Evidently something went wrong then - the banner does not simply 'make' the SM strike last, they have to be hit by it's shooting attack, which goes at I2 in combat. Those SM should have taken a fair few chunks out of the MF.

Moreover, the Swordmasters having "always strike first" thanks to SoA, it would have combined with the ASL to make them strike in initiative.

They would have lost the reroll, but wouls still strike before the Ogres and Mournfangs (but still after the impact hits of course)

dementian
18-11-2011, 13:19
Moreover, the Swordmasters having "always strike first" thanks to SoA, it would have combined with the ASL to make them strike in initiative.

They would have lost the reroll, but wouls still strike before the Ogres and Mournfangs (but still after the impact hits of course)

But if SoA is negated then wouldn't the Swordmasters use the GW ASL rule instead of at their I value?

Munin
18-11-2011, 13:33
But if SoA is negated then wouldn't the Swordmasters use the GW ASL rule instead of at their I value?

SoA gives ASF and make the High Elves ignore ASL given by GW. So if they gain ASL that negates their ASF hence fighting at their I value.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
18-11-2011, 13:45
I actually ran point for point comparisons for Mournfangs and Khorne Chaos Knights a while back and they were very comparable, as said Mournfangs were a bit more lethal on the charge but lost out after that.

Korraz
18-11-2011, 13:49
The thing with Mournfangs is, is that they are all but immune to attacks of most Rank and File units. That's where the Chaos Knights eventually lose out.

Urgat
18-11-2011, 13:56
Forgive the question as I don't have the book yet, but how are they immune to RnF in a day when even the Stank can be brought down by RnF?

theunwantedbeing
18-11-2011, 14:43
Forgive the question as I don't have the book yet, but how are they immune to RnF in a day when even the Stank can be brought down by RnF?

He said all but immune, not immune.

Ws3, To4, 2+/6+ save, 3 wounds each.
Ws5, To4, 1+ save, 1 wound each.

Ws3, St5 infantry need to make 21.6 attacks to kill a Mournfang and 9 to kill a chaos knight.
Ws4, St5 infantry need to make 16.2 attacks to kill a Mournfang and 9 to kill a chaos knight.

So they're slightly more survivable due to having 3 wounds each, despite the lower weaponskill.

PurpleSun
18-11-2011, 14:44
I actually ran point for point comparisons for Mournfangs and Khorne Chaos Knights a while back and they were very comparable, as said Mournfangs were a bit more lethal on the charge but lost out after that.

Let's say that each unit takes 2 wounds at the end of the first round of combat. In the second round of combat, you still have 4 Mournfangs, whereas you now only have 3 Knights. Having double the wounds makes a big difference in my calculations.

Snake1311
18-11-2011, 16:24
I play both Warriors of Chaos and Ogre Kingdoms. I have always been a huge fan of Chaos Knights (even considering what 8th Edition did to them). However, I'm starting to think that my new Mournfang Cavalry are far superior point for point. I am curious what others think...

For around 300 points, you can have 5 Knights of Khorne with command, and for about the same points, you can have 4 Mournfangs with heavy armor, ironfists, and command.

The Mournfang have better movement (8 to 7) and more wounds (12 compared to 5). Mournfang have better damage output with an average of 8 S5 impact hits and 4 stomps (against infantry). They also have 16 attacks from their mounts compared to the Knight's 5 (or 10 according to some). The Mournfang have comparable defenses with a 2+/6++ compared to just a 1+ with the Knights.

Anybody else seeing the numbers leaning heavily towards the Mournfangs?

Some bad evaluation there, and people feeding you bad evaluation as well.

First of all, ignore the command when you are factoring costs, especially for cavalry. 1 Mournfang = 1.5 chaos knights, or to make this a more sensible measure, compare 4 mournfangs to 6 knights. After that you can add command and such, although the CK one is rather overpriced (so a point for the MFangs I guess).

Secondly, attacks. The mounrfangs will dish out 16 S5s and 12S4 in addition to impact hits and stomps, although at WS3. CKs will throw out 12S5 and 6S4 with no extras, so yes - they have less of an impact vanilla. Keep in mind the mark of khorne would bringthe total for the CK to 18S5s from the knights - overall still weaker, but not by much.

Thirdy, defence. Theunwantedbeing shows MFs are more survivable, but not everything is S5, and specifically the Ws3 S5+ combo is very rare. As WS goes to 4 and 5 (which is actually half or more opponents) the knight becomes more survivable; as you lower the S to 4 or 3 (also reasonably common) the CK becomes a clear leader. Not to mention this includes your requested ironfists and heavy armour, which is another 40 for the whole unit. So, to keep it fair, lets say the CK get khorne, and MF get their armour.

So whats the final conclusion? The MFangs hit harder on the charge due to impacts, but not significantly more so in the subsequent rounds even with stomps when their low WS is considered. CKnights have (surprisingly for WoC) a more modest damage output, but are much tougher to kill in almost every situation - making them superior in prolonged combats, as they maintina their numbers for longer.

Thats pretty much the conclusion - MF is for charing, CK is for grinding. Each has fringe benefits as well (ld, magic attacks, cheap command), but no need to get into THAT much detail.


Purple Sun, since CKs have armour TWICE that of MFangs and higher WS / same toughness, there is really no scenario where they'd take the same number of wounds.

PurpleSun
18-11-2011, 16:36
Purple Sun, since CKs have armour TWICE that of MFangs and higher WS / same toughness, there is really no scenario where they'd take the same number of wounds.

If Mournfangs have heavy armor and ironfists, they have a 2+/6++ compared to 1+ of the Knights. Seems to me that in most all scenarios, they would take about the same amount of wounds.

So for grinding, the Mournfangs get 16A S5 WS3, 12A S4 WS3, and 4 S5 stomps. The Knights get 18A S5 WS5, 6A S4 WS 3.

So if defense is the same, and although weapon skill is less, the Fangs have more attacks making offense about the same, Fangs are at least equal on grinding.

So overall conclusion would be offense and defense is the same with grinding, only the Fangs have twice the wounds. Clearly the Fangs also come out way ahead on the charge.

The Low King
18-11-2011, 17:55
Mournfangs cower in fear from my dwarf lord with his MRoSmiting.......(litterally, he has flaming attacks)

Snake1311
18-11-2011, 17:59
If Mournfangs have heavy armor and ironfists, they have a 2+/6++ compared to 1+ of the Knights. Seems to me that in most all scenarios, they would take about the same amount of wounds.


This is where the misunderstanding stems from, as this is only true vs S3. Most things will be S4/5/6. 1+ is twice as good as 2+ against S5, and 50% better against S5 and 33% better against 6; the ward save does not compensate for that as it provides a measly 17% extra protection. The lower weaponskill means they would take 33% more hits against most thing as well.

Maskedman5oh4
18-11-2011, 18:59
The Rhinox Cavalry is indeed nasty; but their are also 105 pts a model. A unit of 4-6 is a big investment in 2000 pts.

I really still believe Chaos Knights are superior. The ogres charge hard and then taper off alot more than the knights, who hit hard and keep on killing. I think the stomp being overvalued in this argument.

I don't have the ogre book; anyone want to run some dice wars unit versus unit?

Zoolander
18-11-2011, 19:29
I like my Mournfangs, but they are only better than Chaos Knights on the charge. The issue with them is either you make them hit hard with great weapons and ST 6, or you improve their armor, and make them ST4. Knights are ST5 with a 1+ all the time. The high WS and I make a difference, too. 3 wound models are nice, though. They are also immune to KB. I love denying my enemy that. :p

On the charge - Mournfangs easily.
Other times - Mostly Knights, but the Fangs are comparable.


Mournfangs cower in fear from my dwarf lord with his MRoSmiting.......(litterally, he has flaming attacks)

I just killed a dwarf lord last weekend. His lord was nasty. The rest of his unit was not. He fled after taking a good beating. :D

PurpleSun
18-11-2011, 21:00
The Rhinox Cavalry is indeed nasty; but their are also 105 pts a model. A unit of 4-6 is a big investment in 2000 pts.

I really still believe Chaos Knights are superior. The ogres charge hard and then taper off alot more than the knights, who hit hard and keep on killing. I think the stomp being overvalued in this argument.

I don't have the ogre book; anyone want to run some dice wars unit versus unit?

Where can I find information about these Rhinox Cavalry? Are they going to be an expansion unit in White Dwarf? Seems strange that only weeks/months after the new book that GW would be working on a new unit.

Korraz
18-11-2011, 21:10
Let's also not forget the Dragonhide Banner. I've seen a unit of Mournfangs bashing Party Busses to pieces in disgustingly short time.

Vepr
18-11-2011, 21:12
Where can I find information about these Rhinox Cavalry? Are they going to be an expansion unit in White Dwarf? Seems strange that only weeks/months after the new book that GW would be working on a new unit.

Forgeworld has the new rules. They are not official though as always.

Malark
19-11-2011, 00:22
Praise to the Great Horned Rat for giving us skaven the tools deal with these fatties ! Be it my WLC, flamethrowers, or even my HPA!

Maskedman5oh4
19-11-2011, 00:26
Where can I find information about these Rhinox Cavalry? Are they going to be an expansion unit in White Dwarf? Seems strange that only weeks/months after the new book that GW would be working on a new unit.

Updated Rhinox Cavalry Rules (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/r/Rhinox.pdf)'

They have been out for a while as a part of Warhammer Forge.

theunwantedbeing
19-11-2011, 00:33
Forgeworld has the new rules. They are not official though as always.

They're just Mournfangs +1
But they did lose a point of movement and of inititative on the rhinox.

+1 weaponskill
+1 strength riders
+1 attack riders
+1 impact hit mounts
+1 wound mounts (also +1 irrelevant toughness boost)
+1 armour save from mounts (so they can have 1+ saves now)
+ Frenzy :wtf:
+ Stubborn :confused:

So noticably better than the current Mournfang cavalry.

Vepr
19-11-2011, 00:35
They are nasty but also not cheap and with frenzy they can be baited all over the place.

theunwantedbeing
19-11-2011, 00:46
They are nasty but also not cheap and with frenzy they can be baited all over the place.

BsB & Tyrant following them around?
Nobody really baits around anyone on purpose these days, it's pure dumb luck when it happens.

They have ten attacks at strength 5 each, plus 2-4 st5 impact hits if they get the charge.

Vepr
19-11-2011, 01:18
I use sabers an gnoblars as bait chasing and redirects all the time on the flanks. With frenzy I would think it would be even easier to do that to the Rhinox cav even if they stick the huge block of them right in the middle of their deployment. If I buy one I will use it more like a chariot. I can see my friends letting me get away with one for the cool factor but I doubt they will agree to a whole block of them tramping across the board.

PurpleSun
19-11-2011, 01:19
Updated Rhinox Cavalry Rules (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/r/Rhinox.pdf)'

They have been out for a while as a part of Warhammer Forge.


Sorry, I am a little newer to Warhammer, but what is Warhammer Forge? Is that a side project of GW or another company? If they are another company, why should I care about them? You wouldn't be able to use anything at an official tourney or even a local one without special leave to do so, right?

Maskedman5oh4
19-11-2011, 02:09
Sorry, I am a little newer to Warhammer, but what is Warhammer Forge? Is that a side project of GW or another company? If they are another company, why should I care about them? You wouldn't be able to use anything at an official tourney or even a local one without special leave to do so, right?

Warhammer Forge is a subsidiary of Forgeworld; Forgeworld is a is subsidiary of Games Workshop. Forgeworld basically manufactures higher price models that have less demand. They also produce said models to a higher quality- it is a product for a gamer that is looking for a centerpiece for their army, or, wants a completely unique army (i.e. Chaos Dwarves). The rules for most Forgeworld products are "experimental", meaning you (may) need your opponents permission, but they add alot to the game as far as diversity and 'coolness.'. Additionally, Forgeworld products do not tend to be "overpowered". YMMV.

Vepr
19-11-2011, 02:16
Sorry, I am a little newer to Warhammer, but what is Warhammer Forge? Is that a side project of GW or another company? If they are another company, why should I care about them? You wouldn't be able to use anything at an official tourney or even a local one without special leave to do so, right?

They are sanctioned by GW and work closely with them, you can almost think of Forge World as a branch of GW in a lot of ways. Anyways the rules they make are not official in that tournaments do not have to let you use them and you generally want to ask your opponent before hand if they mind you using something from Forge World.

Korraz
19-11-2011, 07:25
Not a branch. Not sanctioned. They are for all intents and purposes GW. THEIR RULES ARE AS OFFICIAL AS ANY. You don't have to ask for permission any more than you have to ask "Can I play my Halberdiers/Mournfangs/Spider Riders". The only exception here are "experimental" rules, which are not in the books.

FW is essentially there for the big/crazy/complicated stuff GW itself can't do for lack of time and possibly motivation.

Snake1311
19-11-2011, 15:26
Not a branch. Not sanctioned. They are for all intents and purposes GW. THEIR RULES ARE AS OFFICIAL AS ANY. You don't have to ask for permission any more than you have to ask "Can I play my Halberdiers/Mournfangs/Spider Riders". The only exception here are "experimental" rules, which are not in the books.

FW is essentially there for the big/crazy/complicated stuff GW itself can't do for lack of time and possibly motivation.

Lol, no.

10char

Korraz
19-11-2011, 18:46
Your literary abilities impress me.

Snake1311
19-11-2011, 23:11
Ok, here's the long version. Even GW doesn't allow FW stuff at their own tournaments, like this one http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1920796a_WH_Doubles_NOV_rulespack.pdf.

Most tournaments are actually hosted by independent organizers, and I've never even heard of one which allows FW stuff.

TL;DR FW stuff not allowed in competitive events.

Vepr
19-11-2011, 23:47
Generally here in the states it is considered good form to ask for permission before using FW stuff and I have never seen it allowed in a tournament. Most often if forge world units are being used in a game it is because it is a game planned around using forge world like 40k Apoc. Most players do not own forge world books let alone forge world models.

Korraz
20-11-2011, 00:02
I never disputed that FW stuff wasn't banned from most tournaments. Only that FW is just as official as any other thing from GW, but GW might as well ban, say, Dark Elves if they feel like it. The reasons for the ban (which do not exist) are somewhere else to be sought.

Please don't drag this thread into another FW debate, and yes, I'm aware that I was the one that replied, but I can't let faleshoods stand. If you feel we need another round of this argument, feel free to unearth the thread from a few weeks ago, or open a new one. I'll, sadly, be there.

Snake1311
20-11-2011, 11:45
Its not banned, banning it would acknowledge it or give it a special mention. Its not allowed because its not an official army book. Its kinda like fielding Tyranids in a fantasy game - they are a GW product and aren't specifically banned anywhere, but you just wouldn't. FW is just not part of the WH core ruleset, end of story.****

I haven't seen any threads from a few weeks ago, you can unearth it if you want.

****EDIT: Storm of Magic is actually a much more appropriate example as it is actually compatible with WH fantasy the same way FW stuff is, and you can't use it in WHF the same way you can't use FW.