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View Full Version : Input For an Elite, Competative Army, but without the Colby



Spleen Hammer
18-11-2011, 21:56
Heya,
I first got into 40K lo all those years ago with the original Rogue Trader book and had gobs of Orks and Eldar. Then, I got out of middle school and my mom tossed them (:wtf:). Then with the edition where Necrons came out I said "Yep, those are for me" and I bought gobs of them. Played a bunch of games and all around had a great go at it.
Anywho, long story short, I am looking to get back into the game. I've been playing Warmachine and Hordes like the were heroin and my newfound meta is kind of taking a break from that game. I'm still on the fence with the new Necrons though, as they seem to have lost some of the "lovecraftian" menace that lured me in 13 years ago.
So here's my question: Is there a faction out there that I could get into that is relatively elite (meaning low model count) but isn't cheese? I've heard nothing but moans and groans everytime a buddy of mine pulls out his GKs and the shop. I'm always drawn towards Tyranids but apparently Carnifexes are easy to pop n' drop nowadays. Sad indeed.

Any advice or conventional wisdom?
Thanks,
Spleen Hammer

LonelyPath
18-11-2011, 22:02
Dark Angels can be elite without the cheese using Deathwing, Ravenwing or a mix of the two (Doublewing) if you don't go over the top with thunder hammers and storm shields on those Deathwing. I think that's your best bet.

I normally take Belial with 1 squad of thunder hammers and cyclone, various mixed Deathwing squads (since they can mix assault and shooting in the same squad) and support it with some Ravenwing. It does fairly well without being cheesy.

KingDeath
18-11-2011, 22:06
If you like Grey Knights then play Grey Knights. The cries of cheese from bunch of idiots shouldn't bother you too much. If, for some reason, you want to play a less competative army then the Grey Muhr, erm, Grey Knights still offer you some options.

Shamana
18-11-2011, 22:14
Eldar are an elite army, and only the more hardcore whiners can call cheese on one of the oldest codices available - especially if you don't bring Eldrad along. They also have a somewhat distinct style, though, and aren't quite as toothless as some might have you believe.

Spleen Hammer
18-11-2011, 22:22
Right now I'm gravitating towards Tyranids and Necrons but everything I've read about either of them leaves me wanting. I've got both codexes (sp?) and while both of them sound great on paper, they seem to lose some luster when I discuss them with other players. Once upon a time I had started to collect a "Nidzilla" list but I hear that that's almost laughable now. I still have a small collection of Necrons but I don't like some of the new stuff and the stuff that is supposed to be good actually isn't.

Dark Angels, huh? I've got some stashed around here somewhere, I think. I wanted to stay away from Marines (I am one, after all) and stick with xenos. When I asked about the Tau at the LGS all I got was a slap on the back and a hearty round of laughter...
Are there any competetive lists left for all the big guys with Tyranids anymore? I was actually really looking forward to fielding 4 or more Carnifexes, couple of Hive Tyrants, and Warriors and Zoanthropes to taste.

Vepr
18-11-2011, 22:27
You can still run nidzilla but nid MCs are now fairly expensive for what they do and certain armies just erase them. If you are going to end up playing a lot of IG, SW, DE, or GK nidzilla is definitely at a disadvantage. It also depends on how competitive you want to be. Personally I really dislike the new nid codex but that does not mean you could not have fun with it in casual games.

Shamana
18-11-2011, 22:27
Well, I think Carnifexes really got hit with the nerf pendulum - they were quite good in the last codex, so the new one upped their price... a fair amount too much, supposedly. Then again, I don't play nids.

I'm not sure how elite they are, though. I imagine you can play a warrior and genestealer army with some raveners, fexes, and the other big bugs, but somehow I think the best way to do nids now is as a mostly horde army - a bucketful of gaunts, a few spawn bugs, and whatever else you can get - trygons, gargoyles, mawlocs etc. Of course, zoanthropes or hive guards are almost a must for the elite slot.

Tau are ... at a bad time now. Remember, they are the oldest codex to wait for an update, bar none (if we can count what the sisters got as an update, at least). When their next codex hits, they may have something you want - they may not be the most elite army ever, but they will likely have a list that will often have you outnumbered, and never outgunned. So perhaps you may want to wait.

From the current armies, I'd say if you want xenos with elite armies - hey, I'm an eldar guy, so that would be my first advice. However, if that doesn't rock your boat and you don't want to wait a year or so for a new codex to bring you up to speed - the dark kin are a stylish, hard-hitting army for a player with a pair. They have good rules, awesome sculpts, and are a respectably hard army to master, but bring the pain like nobody's business. 10 points for basic model with 5+ or 6+ armor is not a horde by any reach, and their FA or elites tend to be fairly expensive for T3 xenos. As for being competitive, they tend to do quite well - and while they do struggle with certain enemies, a lot of armies don't much like the bucketloads of poisoned shots and melee goodness that DE can bring. DE tended to be an army that could table a careless opponent even before the update - and they haven't gotten any weaker.

Spleen Hammer
18-11-2011, 22:39
Hordes are not the way to go, with me anyway. Too much head trauma so I can't pay that much attention! Though I do like the looks of the new Hormagaunts...

Question: What is it exactly that makes the MCs for Nids so bad? What is doing the erasing? Can't cover mitigate that?

It has been too long, I'm still getting back into this.

Vepr
18-11-2011, 22:54
Hordes are not the way to go, with me anyway. Too much head trauma so I can't pay that much attention! Though I do like the looks of the new Hormagaunts...

Question: What is it exactly that makes the MCs for Nids so bad? What is doing the erasing? Can't cover mitigate that?

It has been too long, I'm still getting back into this.

You can bubble wrap them to some extent with termagants and venomthropes but with Imperial Guard it is the incredible weight of fire especially high strength shots with low ap. Space Wolves have their priests that can make your MCs disappear down a hole from inside of a transport on top of their long fang rocket launcher spam. With Dark Elves it is all the poison and lance spam combined with fast transports. Grey Knights also can bring a lot of powerful long range fire with their psyh ammo auto cannon dreads on top of their force weapon ability to make an MC go away with one hit.

Scaryscarymushroom
18-11-2011, 23:20
I think just about every army has an answer for monstrous creatures that will be included due to the prevalence of tanks in 5th edition. Tau have Twin linked railguns and plasma guns that don't overheat. Orks have... Well, they have numbers, like the guard. Not to mention Power Klaws that get 3-5 attacks on the charge at strength 9. Sisters of Battle have Exorcist missile launchers or squads full of rending heavy bolters, and about a million meltaguns. Vanilla marines can have pretty big numbers of high strength low ap shots, too.

I didn't realize weak monstrous creatures were a problem that the tyranids had. Most of the time, it seems like their monstrous creatures are the one think I can't deal with gracefully. I'm especially fearful of the day when my opponent starts to take 6+ carnifexes. That's a lot of acid barf.

Shamana
18-11-2011, 23:20
Question: What is it exactly that makes the MCs for Nids so bad? What is doing the erasing? Can't cover mitigate that?

It has been too long, I'm still getting back into this.

I'd say the main problem is the cost, actually. In 4th, a carnifex started with a cost under 100 points, and would just about hit the 100 mark - or even less - if you statted him simply enough. In the new codex, it's starting - starting at over 150, and that's the base, melee version. Want a shooting carnifex? Better be willing to dedicate a bit under 200 points. In the old codex, you could buy a carny with 2 venom cannons for under that.

Scaryscarymushroom
18-11-2011, 23:34
I'd say the main problem is the cost, actually. In 4th, a carnifex started with a cost under 100 points, and would just about hit the 100 mark - or even less - if you statted him simply enough. In the new codex, it's starting - starting at over 150, and that's the base, melee version. Want a shooting carnifex? Better be willing to dedicate a bit under 200 points. In the old codex, you could buy a carny with 2 venom cannons for under that.

When taken en masse, I can see new carnifexes being quite useful (especially for dealing with MEQs and vehicles). But the restrictions that they need to be the same as all the others in their squadron would make modelling a 'nidzilla list kind of boring IMO. That's the main problem for me; I'll never buy 8 more carnifexes. And I'd never field my 4th edition fex in 5th because he's so weirdly unique. As much as I like him, I wouldn't want another one like him.

Sinnertje
18-11-2011, 23:39
Blood Angels? I'm just starting with them, from what I've understood they are CC heavy with a fairly low model count.

Spleen Hammer
19-11-2011, 01:54
All right. I did some digging and I have more DA than I thought I had.

Here's a quick list I put together:
HQ
Belial w/stuff
Term Librarian
Elites
Dread w/ ven, las can, Xarm
Dread w/ven, Xarm
Troops
Term Sqd w/asslt can
Term Sqd w/asslt can
Heavy
Land Raider w/ HK miss, Xarm
Predator w/ HBolt spons
That's 1500 points on the nose and I'd have to actually buy about half of it.
To expand to 2K points add:
Tac Sqd, full man, Pfist, Plasgun, HvyBolt
Techmarine w/harness, 4 servs
with a Razorback w/lasturret
That's 1995 points. Too many Terminators? Will my enemy squeal?

Thoughts on this list or are there better?
Spleen Hammer

Spleen Hammer
19-11-2011, 02:54
Well, I just tried to put together a quick list for Nids and almost had the big one. I won't break it down like the other list, but here's what I was thinking:

Hive Tyrant
max TGuard
10 Warriors
3 Zoans
3 C-Fexes
Trygon
Came out to just under 2K points.

The kicker was that what I was thinking for DA ran around $200. For what I was thinking for the Nids? Over $450...

So Nids are out...:wtf:

Shame too, they are some of the best models in the genre. I love to paint them. *sigh*

The Marshel
19-11-2011, 12:32
have to divide the 10 warriors into 2 units of 5 to be legal, thats really not many troops at all, very hard to win with

jack da greenskin
19-11-2011, 12:43
Or you could do crons? Plenty of scope for conversion and the new dex makes them exciting.

Orks? 3 squads of meganobs, ghazzy, and either a big mek or a warboss, all in battlewagons?

GK? You can convert these however you want, a bunch of heavy armoured necrons using draigo-wing rules sounds fun enough :p

Socaddict
19-11-2011, 12:55
How about an Ork nob focused list? two warbosses (or warboss and ghazzie) to make two mobs of nobs/meganobz as troops, more in the elites, a few battlewagons, maybe some deffkoptas?

Reinholt
19-11-2011, 16:35
As someone who plays Tyranids currently, I just don't see a place in the list for the Carnifex right now. The other options in that slot are better, and the point cost is really what kills them. Taking three only increases the inefficiency, unfortunately... now you've overpaid three times, instead of just one!

There are some good 'nid lists out there, and some unconventional ones that work pretty well. There's no obvious spam power build, which is what people tend to gravitate towards on the internet (partially because of the ease of discussions).

Overall 'nids can be a frustrating army to play, in the current game. They just don't have some of the basic things other forces do, so keep that in mind. DA are just fine (all marines are really varying degrees of average to good). If you want an easier army to get back in with, they are probably it.

magnum12
19-11-2011, 17:05
For the OP, the problem with GKs stems from a few bad actors interacting together (synergistic effects) to create some horrifically unfair match ups. Namely for close combat armies. Just try beating GK with World Eaters, you'll know what I mean.

1. Halberds: Undercosted weapon (free or 2 points) that essentially gives you "Super Mark of Slaanesh". Really hurts dedicated assault armies.

1a. Army wide force weapon. Not that bad on its own. Acts more as an accomplice to Halberds. Net result is that multi wound assault units are screwed, especially in combination with Halberds.

2. Purifying Flame: Due to the way it works (striking before combat begins not during), it decimates horde assault armies before they get a chance to strike. Gets awful when comboed with Super Mark of Slaanesh.

3. Psybolts being allowed to be taken with Auto Cannons. Essentially gives you 4 TL missile launchers. However this variant of Dreadnaught has trouble in close combat.

As for army recommendations, I've been hearing nothing but good things about the Necron codex. A very nice lol-mid numbers shooting army about the power level of Dark Eldar (tough but not cheesy.) BTW, those who say Eldar can't compete are idiots. Eldar took 2nd at this year's 'ard boyz. Here's the results.

1st: Imperial Guard, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar
2nd: Eldar, Grey Knights, Grey Knights.
3rd: Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard.

LonelyPath
19-11-2011, 17:16
All right. I did some digging and I have more DA than I thought I had.

Here's a quick list I put together:
HQ
Belial w/stuff
Term Librarian
Elites
Dread w/ ven, las can, Xarm
Dread w/ven, Xarm
Troops
Term Sqd w/asslt can
Term Sqd w/asslt can
Heavy
Land Raider w/ HK miss, Xarm
Predator w/ HBolt spons
That's 1500 points on the nose and I'd have to actually buy about half of it.
To expand to 2K points add:
Tac Sqd, full man, Pfist, Plasgun, HvyBolt
Techmarine w/harness, 4 servs
with a Razorback w/lasturret
That's 1995 points. Too many Terminators? Will my enemy squeal?

Thoughts on this list or are there better?
Spleen Hammer

DA Librarians are pretty naff, I recommend a Terminator Interrogator Chaplain instead, those guys are mean!

Drop all the extra armour off the Ven Dreads, they don't need it, then give them a missile launcher each. Shooty Ven Dreads are good in DA lists.

Drop the Predator and LR and take another DW squad, drop the assault cannons and take cyclone missile launchers instead. Cheaper, longer range and now fire 2 shots a turn thanks to the FAQ update. Also don't overlook the possible thunder hammer squad with banner and apothecary, it's a expensive squad, but darn hard to shift with 2+/3++ and Feel no Pain!

The weakness of the list though will be relying on good positioning with Deep Stroking onto the table, this can be solved with some Ravenwing bikes. For just over 200 points you can get 6 bikes on the table to zip around and lurk in cover, then act as a way to bring your bigger boys down safely. I recommend getting some RW in the list when you expand to 2000, they are a Godsend!

So for 1500 I'd take...

Belial (thunder hammer/storm shield)
Interrogator Chaplain (terminator)

DW (banner ,apothecary, cyclone, thunder hammers, storm shields)
DW (cyclone)
DW (cyclone)

Ven Dread (las/missile)

RW (6 bikes with 2 melta and melta attack bike)

Spleen Hammer
19-11-2011, 18:48
What about taking a Ravenwing list, using Sammael and a bazillion land speeders? I'd consider bikers but they have got to be the most petarded looking figs out there and amongst the most rediculous in concept. There's a reason bike aren't used in todays militaries other than for recon...

Perhaps a "Wing" list, using a mix of Deathwing and Ravenwing units? I don't know. This is frustrating. What I really want to do is make a fluffy list, concoct a background and unique paint scheme and go with that. But I also want to win some games once and a while, you know? I don't really want to spam anything, but it appears that that's the sign of the times.

LonelyPath
19-11-2011, 19:25
Oh, one thing I forgot to put with that list above is that the 2nd and 3rd DW squads are a mix of assault and shooting for wound allocation and getting some more 3++ saves. Another option for the ven dread is plasma cannon + missile, it's my favourite for the DA ven dread seeing how it's cheap and works well against both infantry and light/medium transports and tanks.

Ravenwing can also work well, the DA Battleforce contains a full Attack Squadron (6 bikes attack bike and LS along with a few RW upgrade sprues which I think is a bargain for its price tag), plus the LS taken in attack squadrons are scoring (says so in the codex) which is a bonus. The Support Squadrons with Typhoons are very cheap now (cheaper than regular SM typhoons) thanks to the FAQ update.

The way you take Sammy, either on jetbike or land speeder is up to the preference of the player, but I prefer the land speeder for it having some nice BS5 twin-linked shooting and being AV14 on front and side armour.

The major down side to collecting RW is having to buy all the special weapons separately and also that regular SM can do it for less points, giving them a much larger army. For fun games RW is fine, but not very competitive. Mixing DW and RW (for Doublewing) works best as they have great synergy since the bikes all have teleport homers built into them and get a scout move to make better use of Belial's Deathwing Assault rule. Doublewing is fluff though since the RW ride out ahead in a scout mode to seek out the Deathwings' quarry and allow for precision strikes on the enemy.

If you want to mix up weapons, that's fine, heavy flamers on mixed Deathwing squads are good since it means they get more hits on the enemy before they assault them (I tend to stick 1 in my lists for the heck of it and it usually pays off). With a little modifying I'm sure you can find something you like based on the list I put above, it's just a example really to help guide you into finding something you will enjoy playing.

A different way of doing Doublewing would be:

Sammael in Land Speeder
Belial (thunder hammers/storm shields)

Attack Squadron (6 bikes, 2 melta, attack bike with melta and LS tornado)
Attack Squadron (6 bikes, 2 melta, attack bike with melta and LS tornado)

LS Typhoon
LS Typhoon

Deathwing (thunder hammers/storm shields, cyclone)

You'll have a core of bikes that can zip around the table and have a chance of popping tanks open, tornadoes to gun down infantry (which bikes can also be pretty effective at over time), typhoons to deal with infantry and tanks, the Deathwing to tar pit tough enemy units and work them into the dirt and Sammael in his (almost) flying land raider.

Bumping the list to 2000 is also easy with the addition of a couple more Terminator boxes.

Spleen Hammer
19-11-2011, 23:02
The Support Squadrons with Typhoons are very cheap now (cheaper than regular SM typhoons) thanks to the FAQ update.

Which FAQ are there new point costs and such? I've looked at 2 thus far and neither one of them had anything to do with points, just no pinning for snipers, cyclones are heavy 2, etc...

Thanks.

TimLeeson
20-11-2011, 01:07
Pick the rules you like the most.

Convert and counts as.

Screw the mainstream factions, they are all boring and suck anyway. Go find some tidbits on some minor xeno races and let your imagination run wild and make an army that's perfectly suited to your taste - it's far more rewarding.

althathir
20-11-2011, 02:41
Which FAQ are there new point costs and such? I've looked at 2 thus far and neither one of them had anything to do with points, just no pinning for snipers, cyclones are heavy 2, etc...

Thanks.

They're still costed at the value in the codex the wargear just got better. DA speeders with cyclones are a bit cheaper than everyone elses because at the time they got 1 shot, now they get two without a price increase.

Spleen Hammer
20-11-2011, 05:02
How's this for a potential DA list? It may be a little more expensive than my previous DA list, but I think it may be more flexible and, well, it'll look sweet on the table.

Belial
Term Int Chaplain

2 DW squads, ea w/2THSS, 2CFSB, 1 CML

2 LR Crusaders, ea w/wtra arm

3 Land Speeders, all melta, 1 Typhoon
That's 1500 points, on the nose. To expand to 2K, add:

DW squad, x2 THSS, x2PFSB, 1 CML
LR Godhammer w/xtra arm
That puts it to 2K points, on the nose.

Each unit has a ride, the HQs can thumb a lift in the Crusaders. Speeders lend support to a weak or crumbling flank or go armor hunting.

Either this or a couple of Tyranid Hive Tyrants and around 70 Hormagaunts. That might be fun to play (and actually be less expensive!).

Thoughts on either?

LonelyPath
21-11-2011, 15:54
I do like that DW list, but like you said, it's a expensive one to buy in money terms. Also, be careful those Land Raiders aren't taken out or your guys can be stranded. The 3 LR DW ist has been proven to do very well, but I never use it so keep forgetting about it, lol.

Spleen Hammer
28-11-2011, 21:49
So, it turns out that I had more Necrons stashed away than I thought. So I'll collect more of them and call it good. Basically I have an Overlord, a Destroyer Lord, 39 Warriors, 7 Destroyers, 1 Heavy Destroyer and an Annihilation Barge.
Is there anything worthwhile I can build off of this or do I need to buy much more goodies?

Any input is great at this point because at this point I'm collecting in a vacuum and have almost no knowledge of what the guys at my LGS play and how they play. It's still Warmachine vs 40K over there and I want to do both...

Thanks!