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Pooky
22-11-2011, 03:45
Are the sprues that models come on now-a-days causing a lot of wasted plastic/ bits?

I was wondering around a GW the other day and was looking for the GK section. At first glance I couldn't find it amid the Space Marines, Space Wolves, Chaos, etc. Upon closer inspection I realised that their range only consisted of about 3 boxes: 1 Terminator box, 1 Power Armor box and 1 Dreadknight box. (Note I am not including "common" units like Rhinos, Dreadnaughts, Land Raiders, etc). At first I thought this was quite odd, because isn't there a range of units to select from? Paladins, Strikers, Interceptors, Purifiers and Terminators? And even with the range of units, there is a range of weapon choices, Halberds, Swords, Falcions, Staves and Hammers, Psycannons, Incinerators, Psilencers, etc. I then had a look at the Power Armor box closer. It can build Strikers, Interceptors and Purifiers. This in turn would obviously mean you get the bits to make all of these models.

Now, the issue comes in that you can only make ONE of the Power Armor variant Grey Knights from a single box. This then also means that the bits for the other 2 variants are NOT BEING USED. That is a mountain of bits that will forever sit on the shelf gathering dust or never see the light of day! If I can propose a parallel/ metaphor: It would be like buying a Box of Space Marines that could make Tactical, Veteran/ Sternguard, Assault and Devestator Marines all in the one box. Sure you get heaps of weapons and other cool bits, but you only get 10 legs and bodies to put them all on!

At first I thought it may have been limited to the Grey Knights. But then I saw a staff member building some new Necron models. They seem to have a similar issue: you get the bits to make a number of variant models that use the same basic frame/ body. Once your models are built, you are left with a heap of bits that you can't use.

And just to complete my 'old man' rant... I remember the days when a Space Marine squad box came with just enough bits to make 10 Marines, a Rocket Launcher, a Flamer and bits for a Sergeant. We had to struggle to get a Power Fist in that squad. We had to use Chaos Space Marine Power Fists!

So, is it just me or are GW forcing us to buy boxes of models and be left with heaps of bits we can't use?

Lars Porsenna
22-11-2011, 03:54
It is infinitely cheaper for GW to make a lot of wasted plastic parts from one mold, than to make multiple molds and have fewer wasted parts. The cost of plastic as a material is dirt cheap. Printing the box probably costs more material-wise. But cutting the molds are expensive, time consuming, and a big investment (even if GW has their own milling machines to cut the molds). Additionally the old adage "time is money" is true; the more molds GW has to cut, the less time it can devote to producing a specific frame, the less of that specific frame it can produce, and it has to raise prices to cover the tooling for that mold.

Damon.

artekfrost
22-11-2011, 03:57
plus, you may be able to pick up legs and torsos cheap from a bits store allowing you to make more models for less money, ie; using extra warrior bodies with the extra two weapons left over from a immortal/deathmark kit in necrons especially since necron warriors come in packs of 12 and are usually fielded in multiples of five.

baphomael
22-11-2011, 03:57
Are the sprues that models come on now-a-days causing a lot of wasted plastic/ bits?

I was wondering around a GW the other day and was looking for the GK section. At first glance I couldn't find it amid the Space Marines, Space Wolves, Chaos, etc. Upon closer inspection I realised that their range only consisted of about 3 boxes: 1 Terminator box, 1 Power Armor box and 1 Dreadknight box. (Note I am not including "common" units like Rhinos, Dreadnaughts, Land Raiders, etc). At first I thought this was quite odd, because isn't there a range of units to select from? Paladins, Strikers, Interceptors, Purifiers and Terminators? And even with the range of units, there is a range of weapon choices, Halberds, Swords, Falcions, Staves and Hammers, Psycannons, Incinerators, Psilencers, etc. I then had a look at the Power Armor box closer. It can build Strikers, Interceptors and Purifiers. This in turn would obviously mean you get the bits to make all of these models.

Now, the issue comes in that you can only make ONE of the Power Armor variant Grey Knights from a single box. This then also means that the bits for the other 2 variants are NOT BEING USED. That is a mountain of bits that will forever sit on the shelf gathering dust or never see the light of day! If I can propose a parallel/ metaphor: It would be like buying a Box of Space Marines that could make Tactical, Veteran/ Sternguard, Assault and Devestator Marines all in the one box. Sure you get heaps of weapons and other cool bits, but you only get 10 legs and bodies to put them all on!

At first I thought it may have been limited to the Grey Knights. But then I saw a staff member building some new Necron models. They seem to have a similar issue: you get the bits to make a number of variant models that use the same basic frame/ body. Once your models are built, you are left with a heap of bits that you can't use.

And just to complete my 'old man' rant... I remember the days when a Space Marine squad box came with just enough bits to make 10 Marines, a Rocket Launcher, a Flamer and bits for a Sergeant. We had to struggle to get a Power Fist in that squad. We had to use Chaos Space Marine Power Fists!

So, is it just me or are GW forcing us to buy boxes of models and be left with heaps of bits we can't use?

In terms of the Grey Knight power armour box, purifiers and normal grey knights are the same model, the difference is only in terms of colour scheme. The teleporty dudes just have a different backpack. So an extra 5 backpacks is hardly excessive.

The excess bits come from all the different equipment options that *all those units can take*. You get a lot of spare weapons because it includes a lot of different options to allow various mixes of weapon options.

Personally, I like the idea that I have enough bits to equip a squad how I want (and the spare bits can easily go towards some conversion project).

A slightly better example might have been the new triarch praetorian/lychguard or immortals/deathmarks kits which force you to build one particular unit and leave you with spare weapons options *and* the unused bits from the alternate build - with the PAGK kits the only difference is a backpack, while the necrons kits leave unused heads, torso pieces etc.

Although, thats not a bad think in my eyes. Plenty of conversion fodder. Those spare deathmark bits from the immortal kit I shall be slapping on spare warrior parts to make cheaper deathmarks - getting two kits out of one box. Likewise, spare deathmark heads and triarch staffs will be going towards a court of Crypteks.

Hicks
22-11-2011, 04:00
Well I have lots of vanilla marines sprues and I want to turn them into SW. So for me, the zillion extra bitz that come with the Grey hunters box are going to be extremely usefull. In fact, I'd love to get more of them.

lbecks
22-11-2011, 04:01
I like the extra bits.

The Orange
22-11-2011, 04:06
I prefer this method tbh. Give's me a ton of extra bits that can be used elsewhere. True there's a lot that may never get used, but with the GK stuff you get plenty of extra weapons/head/etc that can be used for conversions for other things (like a SM Honor Guard). Some of those extra Necron bits might be great for some of my Tau conversions too. And when in doubt, make a pile of dead infantry bits scattered around.

Also when you buy a kit to build one unit you'll also get to check out all the stuff for the other units it can build. After building some Lychguard I'm really tempted to get another set to build the Triarch Praetorians because their jump packs look pretty cool now that I can see them more clearly.

Aliarzathanil
22-11-2011, 07:26
GW just can't win with some people...

Archibald_TK
22-11-2011, 08:17
Are the sprues that models come on now-a-days causing a lot of wasted plastic/ bits?

I was wondering around a GW the other day and was looking for the GK section. At first glance I couldn't find it amid the Space Marines, Space Wolves, Chaos, etc. Upon closer inspection I realised that their range only consisted of about 3 boxes: 1 Terminator box, 1 Power Armor box and 1 Dreadknight box. (Note I am not including "common" units like Rhinos, Dreadnaughts, Land Raiders, etc). At first I thought this was quite odd, because isn't there a range of units to select from? Paladins, Strikers, Interceptors, Purifiers and Terminators? And even with the range of units, there is a range of weapon choices, Halberds, Swords, Falcions, Staves and Hammers, Psycannons, Incinerators, Psilencers, etc. I then had a look at the Power Armor box closer. It can build Strikers, Interceptors and Purifiers. This in turn would obviously mean you get the bits to make all of these models.

Now, the issue comes in that you can only make ONE of the Power Armor variant Grey Knights from a single box. This then also means that the bits for the other 2 variants are NOT BEING USED. That is a mountain of bits that will forever sit on the shelf gathering dust or never see the light of day! If I can propose a parallel/ metaphor: It would be like buying a Box of Space Marines that could make Tactical, Veteran/ Sternguard, Assault and Devestator Marines all in the one box. Sure you get heaps of weapons and other cool bits, but you only get 10 legs and bodies to put them all on!

At first I thought it may have been limited to the Grey Knights. But then I saw a staff member building some new Necron models. They seem to have a similar issue: you get the bits to make a number of variant models that use the same basic frame/ body. Once your models are built, you are left with a heap of bits that you can't use.

And just to complete my 'old man' rant... I remember the days when a Space Marine squad box came with just enough bits to make 10 Marines, a Rocket Launcher, a Flamer and bits for a Sergeant. We had to struggle to get a Power Fist in that squad. We had to use Chaos Space Marine Power Fists!

So, is it just me or are GW forcing us to buy boxes of models and be left with heaps of bits we can't use?
Consolidating units in less boxes allows shops to carry a bigger part of the range. Currently between 40k and WFB there are simply too many kits, forcing a large chunk of shops (both independent and GW ones) to make sacrifices and not field the entire range. WFB suffers A LOT from that.

To give you an example that an "old man" will follow, back in the time, I ended up not even bothering with the Land Speeder Typhoon kit as it was more a waste of shelve space than anything. Having the 3 Speeders consolidated into a single box was a blessing (and a thing we asked GW to do for years). It means that even if one of the options is subpar, we still have the model available nonetheless. In your GK example, if Interceptors had their own boxes, I think a lot of shops would not be fielding them on the shelves currently.

xxRavenxx
22-11-2011, 08:40
Consolidating units in less boxes allows shops to carry a bigger part of the range. Currently between 40k and WFB there are simply too many kits, forcing a large chunk of shops (both independent and GW ones) to make sacrifices and not field the entire range. WFB suffers A LOT from that.

To give you an example that an "old man" will follow, back in the time, I ended up not even bothering with the Land Speeder Typhoon kit as it was more a waste of shelve space than anything. Having the 3 Speeders consolidated into a single box was a blessing (and a thing we asked GW to do for years). It means that even if one of the options is subpar, we still have the model available nonetheless. In your GK example, if Interceptors had their own boxes, I think a lot of shops would not be fielding them on the shelves currently.

Agreed.

I can't wait till a few more boxes consolidate and I get my shelf space back :p

That and a recut of the WoC sprues, leading to their battleforce becoming 30% its original size...

Rick Blaine
22-11-2011, 09:05
Wow, some people really will find any excuse to complain about GW.


So, is it just me or are GW forcing us to buy boxes of models and be left with heaps of bits we can't use?
I don't think GW is forcing anyone into anything. Or have they taken your family hostage?

Give your extra bits to the local Ork player. Problem solved.

tu33y
22-11-2011, 09:14
I never throw any unused bits away. i more often then not use it for something down the line.

people seem so afraid to convert and do interesting things with their models nowadays. every tank you see is stock... detail is where the cool lives...

Fawful
22-11-2011, 09:19
The current way is a lot better than the old way. Take a look at some of the older fantasy kits such as zombies or marauders. You get the same command group items over and over again and even then the amount of wasted space on the sprues is staggering. The bestigor kit is in comparison way better with only 2 sprues but enough options to make everything and less holdover bits.

And you could always use the spares to make conversions or buy some more parts to get more models out of a box, as other have said before.

Harwammer
22-11-2011, 10:51
I really like having an excess of bits. I'm going to use the wfb militia kit for my example. There are a tonne of weapon options (1 club, 1 axe, 2 crossbows, 2 bows, 4 swords, 1 greatsword, 1 gun, 1 halberd, etc for every 4 men).

This abundance of options by itself looks great. However, if i wanted to make all 5 men with a halberd the results would look very samey as the arm would always be holding the weapon in the same pose. Having so many arms means i can remove the hand holding the halberd from the arm it is attached to then use this hand on another arm. Doing this 4 times means each of my men will be armed the same but they will all have differently posed arms making them look more individual.

Often I'll have a figure whose arm is actually made from 3 different arms; the weapon will be from one option, the gauntlet from a second and the sleeve or upperarm from a third. Having the option to do this without having to buy extra kits makes me very happy. Best of all it is very easy to do.

Cheexsta
22-11-2011, 12:03
And just to complete my 'old man' rant... I remember the days when a Space Marine squad box came with just enough bits to make 10 Marines, a Rocket Launcher, a Flamer and bits for a Sergeant. We had to struggle to get a Power Fist in that squad. We had to use Chaos Space Marine Power Fists!
You...prefer the days when you didn't get enough bits to actually make the things you wanted? I hate the Khorne Berzerker box for that very reason - it contains literally no bits for Aspiring Champions. Just three sets of the same couple of sprues with no actual options except "Plasma Pistols Y/N". Or exactly one kind of un-helmeted head with giant fangs. Yeah, sucks if you didn't want space vampires.

Personally, as a bit of a bits hoarder, I love the newer boxes. And if you don't have a use for those bits...do you have friends? Do they have bits that you want? Just make a trade - done.

I love that they cram as much stuff onto each sprue as possible. It's one of the things that I feel that GW is really doing right.

Sir_Turalyon
22-11-2011, 12:20
Notice that Strikes, Interceptors, Purifiers and Purgators use the same equipment and look the same. Interceptors are a strike Squad with two short sticks glued to their backpacks. Purifiers are strike squad painted white with extra heavy weapon. Purgators are Strike squad with extra heavy weapons. All it takes to cover all types of squad is to put more heavy weapons and ten teleport sticks in the box (you have to buy white paint that upgrades them to purifiers separately). It's more the matter of GW doing the same squad four times under different rules than pushing four kits onto one frame.

LonelyPath
22-11-2011, 12:32
Personally, I have always been a fan of having all of those extra bits, but if you think they're a "waste", why not magnetise all of them so you can make use of just about everything in each box. it will cost a fair bit in magnets, not to mention time trimming parts so that they all fit properly, but it might be up your avenue.

Having 1 box to represent multiple units is not a new thing though, Orks have had it for a while with the Lootas/Burnas box, it just seems that the Lootas box was a experiment that's paid off well for GK and so opened up a new way of getting multiple releases out in a short a time. I bet you (and many others) would also complain if you had to buy a different box for each squad type only to open it up and find a few bits different and then say "oh, why couldn't they make them into a single box with these few bits thrown in there?".

Pooky
22-11-2011, 13:39
Maybe I am weird :(

I hate having boxes and boxes of bits after I have finished building an army but everyone else seems to like having stuff left over.

loveless
22-11-2011, 14:56
Notice that Strikes, Interceptors, Purifiers and Purgators use the same equipment and look the same. Interceptors are a strike Squad with two short sticks glued to their backpacks. Purifiers are strike squad painted white with extra heavy weapon. Purgators are Strike squad with extra heavy weapons. All it takes to cover all types of squad is to put more heavy weapons and ten teleport sticks in the box (you have to buy white paint that upgrades them to purifiers separately). It's more the matter of GW doing the same squad four times under different rules than pushing four kits onto one frame.

Oh how I wish the Interceptors were just a few optional sticks instead of 5 massive excess backpacks. I'd love that space for some alternate heads and some more swords to choose from. Sadly, no, we get 10 backpacks for 5 models and no "easy" way to utilize them (unlike the Death Company box, where you can find plenty of uses for the leftover packs in a BA army).

Spider-pope
22-11-2011, 15:40
Maybe I am weird :(

I hate having boxes and boxes of bits after I have finished building an army but everyone else seems to like having stuff left over.

If you hate having extra stuff to use in future conversions and cant stomach the thought of having a well stocked bits box, then i recommend sticking your extra's on Ebay.

Put the right thing on there and you can end up with a fair bit of cash in exchange for bits you have no intention of using.


And just to complete my 'old man' rant... I remember the days when a Space Marine squad box came with just enough bits to make 10 Marines, a Rocket Launcher, a Flamer and bits for a Sergeant. We had to struggle to get a Power Fist in that squad. We had to use Chaos Space Marine Power Fists!

Each to their own i guess. I certainly don't miss the days when i had to either pay extra for a metal sergeant to get the equipment i wanted, or beg other players for their spare bits.

In fact one of the reasons i havent splashed out on Bestigors for my Beastman army yet is the lack of extras on the sprue. The more bits for my bits box the better.

stroller
22-11-2011, 16:19
Maybe I am weird

I hate having boxes and boxes of bits after I have finished building an army but everyone else seems to like having stuff left over.

Finished building an army? What a weird concept...

Bookwrak
22-11-2011, 16:23
Yeah, I certainly remember a lot of threads over the years about complaining about, 'This unit has options A,B,C,X,Y, and Z, but the box only comes with B and Y. What the hell GW?' This is the first time I remember someone complaining about having too much.

RandomThoughts
22-11-2011, 16:28
Seriously, you're complaining about extra bits that can be used for convertions of any kind?

I wish my Eldar kits had more leftover bits for when the convertion bug bites me!

LonelyPath
22-11-2011, 20:08
Yeah, I certainly remember a lot of threads over the years about complaining about, 'This unit has options A,B,C,X,Y, and Z, but the box only comes with B and Y. What the hell GW?' This is the first time I remember someone complaining about having too much.

Yep, the ones I remember best are the Tactical Squads not having more weapon options, SW only coming with plasma guns and Wold Guard only containing a cyclone. There was more than enough complaining in those threads about options that did not come in the box.

druchii
22-11-2011, 20:21
GW just can't win with some people...

Only on Warseer would you find such an amusing thread.

People are really complaining about getting MORE for their money?

Maybe it's just because I'm a fat, greedy American, but getting two scoops of ice cream, a waffle cone, sprinkles AND a cherry for the price of two scoops of ice cream sounds like a great deal to me.

d

Voss
22-11-2011, 20:25
I like the extra bits.

Agreed. I just started working on a black templar force, and I picked up a BA death company box for the assault squad, a GK box for the command squad, and a normal SM command squad (for bits for the command squad and basic marine bodies for a crusader squad). I've got a lot of extra bits left over that are going to be spread throughout the army (and are hence useful), or traded or sold, but at the end of the day, the three boxes that made 15 marines total still made 15 marines total. I gained far more than I would have somehow 'lost', and I can always snap up some extra bodies and legs on the cheap to attach some of the excess bits to.

Its far better than picking up a tactical squad and only having a flamer and missile launcher.

zoltan
22-11-2011, 20:30
Are the sprues that models come on now-a-days causing a lot of wasted plastic/ bits?

I was wondering around a GW the other day and was looking for the GK section. At first glance I couldn't find it amid the Space Marines, Space Wolves, Chaos, etc. Upon closer inspection I realised that their range only consisted of about 3 boxes: 1 Terminator box, 1 Power Armor box and 1 Dreadknight box. (Note I am not including "common" units like Rhinos, Dreadnaughts, Land Raiders, etc). At first I thought this was quite odd, because isn't there a range of units to select from? Paladins, Strikers, Interceptors, Purifiers and Terminators? And even with the range of units, there is a range of weapon choices, Halberds, Swords, Falcions, Staves and Hammers, Psycannons, Incinerators, Psilencers, etc. I then had a look at the Power Armor box closer. It can build Strikers, Interceptors and Purifiers. This in turn would obviously mean you get the bits to make all of these models.

Now, the issue comes in that you can only make ONE of the Power Armor variant Grey Knights from a single box. This then also means that the bits for the other 2 variants are NOT BEING USED. That is a mountain of bits that will forever sit on the shelf gathering dust or never see the light of day! If I can propose a parallel/ metaphor: It would be like buying a Box of Space Marines that could make Tactical, Veteran/ Sternguard, Assault and Devestator Marines all in the one box. Sure you get heaps of weapons and other cool bits, but you only get 10 legs and bodies to put them all on!

At first I thought it may have been limited to the Grey Knights. But then I saw a staff member building some new Necron models. They seem to have a similar issue: you get the bits to make a number of variant models that use the same basic frame/ body. Once your models are built, you are left with a heap of bits that you can't use.

And just to complete my 'old man' rant... I remember the days when a Space Marine squad box came with just enough bits to make 10 Marines, a Rocket Launcher, a Flamer and bits for a Sergeant. We had to struggle to get a Power Fist in that squad. We had to use Chaos Space Marine Power Fists!

So, is it just me or are GW forcing us to buy boxes of models and be left with heaps of bits we can't use?


Yep youre completely right, its just a way to leach more money from their customers, forcing them to buy things they dont want with every purchase of what they do want, as if the galloping price rises werent enough.

Ive been in the hobby since the 90s, and when you look at their price rises its disgusting, they have increased prices at a rate close to, if not more than tripple the rate of inflation.

In other words where inflation has made prices double what they were in the 90s, gws prices are now 4 times as much or more, and thats without this latest trend of adding bits you dont need to jack prices up even more.

ColShaw
22-11-2011, 20:30
Only on Warseer would you find such an amusing thread.

People are really complaining about getting MORE for their money?

Maybe it's just because I'm a fat, greedy American, but getting two scoops of ice cream, a waffle cone, sprinkles AND a cherry for the price of two scoops of ice cream sounds like a great deal to me.

d

I don't think that's the issue. I think the issue is that there are people (including me, sometimes) who would rather a sprue contain more models, and fewer extraneous options. I would like to get the same amount of plastic for my money; I'd just rather it not be extra arms, but extra models.

Empirespy
22-11-2011, 20:39
If you want to use the bitz, magnetize them, therefore making all the units, from 1 box, at a fraction of the cost of buying them separately!

AlexHolker
22-11-2011, 20:50
People are really complaining about getting MORE for their money?
You're not getting more for your money - these are 5-man kits, remember?

GW isn't putting 20 men worth of bits into a 10 man box, they're taking a 10 man box worth of bits and removing 5 sets of legs.

Pooky
22-11-2011, 21:10
Maybe I am weird

I hate having boxes and boxes of bits after I have finished building an army but everyone else seems to like having stuff left over.

Finished building an army? What a weird concept...

Once an army reaches 1750 points that's when it's time to stop for me. If I didn't stop myself, I know I'd end up collecting every single thing for the army and never be using it all. In a way, it's a kind of self regulation so I don't burn all of my $$$'s on models and still have some available for other stuff...


You're not getting more for your money - these are 5-man kits, remember?

GW isn't putting 20 men worth of bits into a 10 man box, they're taking a 10 man box worth of bits and removing 5 sets of legs.

Exactly. Using the ice cream analogy mentioned before, it's like getting your two scoops, but now getting 3 spoons, 2 paper cups (when you've already got a waffle cone) and 10 paper towels. You can't use all the extra do-dads you've been given.

Khornies & milk
22-11-2011, 21:37
Maybe I am weird :(

I hate having boxes and boxes of bits after I have finished building an army but everyone else seems to like having stuff left over.

Maybe do what I did then. I had probably close to 100 boxes of Sprues and miscellaneous Bitz laying around the house, so I spent some time cutting all the Bitz off the Sprues, and put them in labelled zip-bags, detailing what set they came from, etc.

I ended up with 3 Baneblade-sized boxes of Bitz, a clean house, and a very happy wife.

Voss
22-11-2011, 22:31
You're not getting more for your money - these are 5-man kits, remember?

GW isn't putting 20 men worth of bits into a 10 man box, they're taking a 10 man box worth of bits and removing 5 sets of legs.

Again, thats what bits services are for, or trading with other actual people. Standard torsos and legs go for cheap, and the special weapons can go for a premium. Trade those two inferno pistols (or whatever your extra bit happen to be) for 5 sets of legs, and you're golden.

There are ways to maximize your use of those bits, or ways to trade them for things you do want. They aren't hard to find. Some bits services will even buy extras of the premium stuff from you.

TheMav80
22-11-2011, 23:19
It really depends on how you are defining extra bits. Plus it works out really well for Space Marines, but not as well for everyone else. You can take any Space Marine bit and stick it to any other Space Marine bit and it will work out with very little converting (if any).

I don't much care for the combination kits like the Orks and Necrons have.

When it comes to just extra weapon options, gubbins, etc., I say pile it on. I think it would be awesome if your Tactical Marine box came with one of each special weapon, one of each heavy weapon, etc.

Or look at the Tau, the only kit you get an actual Shield Drone in is the Pathfinder Sarge blister. The only place to get a Markerlight Drone is the Steal Team box.

At the same time it annoys me that the Lizardmen Temple Guard box comes with two Command Sprues. So you get twice the banners and musician and Sarge options. Which would only be nice if they were different, and not just the same sprue twice. Then you have to buy the box twice to have a decent unit, so you end up with three command sprues that are not going to get used.

Beppo1234
22-11-2011, 23:38
1)you'd complain more if you didn't get as many options. And just thank your lucky starts they don't give 4 sets of legs, so you have to buy 2 boxes to field a battle squad, or three to field a full strength squad... infact, I'm suprised this isn't tactic that GW has employed yet.
2)having a bits box well stocked with leftovers is great, more bits is better. To the person with the icecream analogy: you can use your extra spoons and napkins for future icecream meals.
3)removing said bits from the sprue for the bits box is key to saving space.
4)not going to talk about price to product ratio, it's GW, this is just a fact of life.

5)funny to see this thread in reference to knights, when I've been collecting uddles of heavy weapons from IG weapon team sprues.

6)if you don't like leftovers, there are lots of options... my local GW had trade day about once a month to exchange bits or old models with other enthusiasts, then there's ebay, and then there's the good ol trash can

druchii
22-11-2011, 23:43
I don't think that's the issue. I think the issue is that there are people (including me, sometimes) who would rather a sprue contain more models, and fewer extraneous options. I would like to get the same amount of plastic for my money; I'd just rather it not be extra arms, but extra models.


You're not getting more for your money - these are 5-man kits, remember?

GW isn't putting 20 men worth of bits into a 10 man box, they're taking a 10 man box worth of bits and removing 5 sets of legs.

You're both assuming (wrongly, I think) that GW would, in fact, put 10 marines into a box if they didn't put in all the extra bits.

Why would they do this? It's much cheaper for them to jam four units' worth of upgrades into a single box, and people obviously like it because they keep buying said boxes.

You'll never get extra models, so why not get extra bits?

d

Chem-Dog
23-11-2011, 00:53
People are really complaining about getting MORE for their money?

The MORE has to be of some reasonable utility though.

Despite all the fanfare of the Necron kits in particular (and a whole raft of kits before them) being "Multi use" this actually helps the collector not one iota. Take the Terminator Assault Squad box as an example, you're building a He'Stan list, you understandably want plenty of Thammer armed guys in your army, you don't WANT Lightning Claws.

In an ideal world all kits would be like the Cadian command squad, loads of bits that can be spread between the rest of your army, even after you've built the unit. A close second would be the Dark Eldar kits which allow or even encourage cross pollination. The Necrons don't have all that much in the way of integration though, the occasional character model might be able to canibalise a few parts to make some more bling but that's about it.

Personally, I prefer to took at it on the positive and regard the bits that come with the kit as free that will possibly come in handy one day as spares for a strange conversion I have yet to conceive of, replacements for breakages or use in terrain. :)

Lars Porsenna
23-11-2011, 01:32
The MORE has to be of some reasonable utility though.


The "more" is that you actually have options in your list. If GW didn't do multi-use kits for Necrons FREX, then we'd end up with Lychguard ONLY with Warscythes, or ONLY Resurrection barges, etc.

Damon.

Chem-Dog
23-11-2011, 01:46
The "more" is that you actually have options in your list. If GW didn't do multi-use kits for Necrons FREX, then we'd end up with Lychguard ONLY with Warscythes, or ONLY Resurrection barges, etc.

Damon.

I totally agree. If it's an option of having two kits in one or having hobson's choice, I'll take the two kits. But I also understand how some people might not feel too enamoured with having half a tank worth of otherwise useless gubbins in their bitz box, that they have effectively paid for.
It's like buying a sandwich and getting a pair of Groucho Glasses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groucho_glasses) with it included in the price (not free, mind, you actually have to pay for it), it's a novelty the first time, the next time your friend can have one too, but after a couple of weeks you're in some kind of Groucho Marks nightmare!!!!!!!!!!

I'm fortunate in the fact that my chosen armies tend to have a huge level of interchangability and at least one of my armies is actually crying out for as much random pieces as possible (so I might be snagging a few Necron guns). But not everyone is me and I'm not gonna tell 'em to suck it up for that very reason.

ehlijen
23-11-2011, 01:52
You're both assuming (wrongly, I think) that GW would, in fact, put 10 marines into a box if they didn't put in all the extra bits.

Why would they do this? It's much cheaper for them to jam four units' worth of upgrades into a single box, and people obviously like it because they keep buying said boxes.

You'll never get extra models, so why not get extra bits?

d

They do sell 10 man boxes. It's called the tactical squad box, comes with minimal extra bits and gets you almost twice as many models per buck as any of the fancy marine boxes.

That means that yes, we pay a premium that might otherwise get us 5 additional models for those extra redundant bits.

TheMav80
23-11-2011, 02:09
They do sell 10 man boxes. It's called the tactical squad box, comes with minimal extra bits and gets you almost twice as many models per buck as any of the fancy marine boxes.

That means that yes, we pay a premium that might otherwise get us 5 additional models for those extra redundant bits.

It also means you don't get all the options that you want/need.

ehlijen
23-11-2011, 03:50
It also means you don't get all the options that you want/need.

Not all of them, but still most of them.

But yes, both approaches have ups and downs.

druchii
23-11-2011, 05:29
Not all of them, but still most of them.

But yes, both approaches have ups and downs.

Sure, of course you pay a premium for brand new models, with TONS of detail (have you compared a blood angel or a Grey Knight to a basic tactical marine?!), that fill spaces in books that cost more (points wise) than a tactical marine. Also, paying a "premium" for "useless" bits does nothing to actually address the issue that GW most likely wouldn't even include the extra five models if they did, indeed, leave the other bits off of the sprue.

Also, tactical marines pretty much always sell with a rhino, a drop pod or a land raider. Wouldn't you agree that we need to look at total, usable, unit cost, and not just the individual unit cost? How often do tactical squads pop on the table without some sort of transport?

d

Pooky
23-11-2011, 06:07
How often do tactical squads pop on the table without some sort of transport?

I can remember when transports were not in vogue and every model was either on foot or deep striking. Your insinuation is only valid for particular editions of the rules. With the next edition, it may again be unpopular to field transports.

druchii
23-11-2011, 06:55
I can remember when transports were not in vogue and every model was either on foot or deep striking. Your insinuation is only valid for particular editions of the rules. With the next edition, it may again be unpopular to field transports.

When that/those editions happen I might change my stance, but at the moment I think it's pretty valid. And who's to say it will change?

d

Scythe
23-11-2011, 08:33
Sure, of course you pay a premium for brand new models, with TONS of detail (have you compared a blood angel or a Grey Knight to a basic tactical marine?!), that fill spaces in books that cost more (points wise) than a tactical marine. Also, paying a "premium" for "useless" bits does nothing to actually address the issue that GW most likely wouldn't even include the extra five models if they did, indeed, leave the other bits off of the sprue.

Also, tactical marines pretty much always sell with a rhino, a drop pod or a land raider. Wouldn't you agree that we need to look at total, usable, unit cost, and not just the individual unit cost? How often do tactical squads pop on the table without some sort of transport?

d

Actual points (and supplements) in game is a non-discussion factor imho. Would you pay the same price for a box of 1 power armoured grey knight instead of 5, given that a grey knight went up in stats and points to cost 500 pts per model?

The point brought up is valid. The question of which would you prefer, 10 models with basic options, or 5 models with a wide variety of options, is an interesting one to ask.

Jonny_N
23-11-2011, 09:25
Find out what components you have left over, and then if it works out cost effective, ebay/modelbits/bitzboz the missing bodies to make them useful.

Pooky
23-11-2011, 10:30
I'm going to play devil's advocate here...

I have seen a few people suggest cleaning the left overs from their sprues and store them away. All very neat and tidy (and would fit in very well with my OCD life).

Now, I'm throwing this out there... How does keeping the bits stored away in a box/ bag/ cupboard/ under the bed/ in the garage/ in the bomb shelter useful to anyone? You are not getting any use out of it. I understand the prospect of future conversions with the bits you have left over. But seriously, how much conversion work will you do? Will you ever use ALL of them? To that end, would it not be better to have nothing sitting around gathering dust and when you do want to perform a conversion you make a small bits order?

Noserenda
23-11-2011, 10:40
Id always go for 5 marines with a tonne of toys personally, Ive done huge amounts of conversions with my army as well as bitz purchasing extras legs from time to time and Im pretty sure ive had shortages of every single marine component that wasnt a pouch...

Especially weapons! More toys = win.

Mr. Ultra
23-11-2011, 10:41
If you want to see stupid and useless spare bits, take a look at the Dwarf miners sprue. It includes even a pony for gods sake!

LonelyPath
23-11-2011, 12:56
You're both assuming (wrongly, I think) that GW would, in fact, put 10 marines into a box if they didn't put in all the extra bits.

Why would they do this? It's much cheaper for them to jam four units' worth of upgrades into a single box, and people obviously like it because they keep buying said boxes.

You'll never get extra models, so why not get extra bits?

d

Tactical Squad, Chaos Marines, Space Wolves... those come in boxes of 10. All of those boxes are also missing options available to the squads.

Spider-pope
23-11-2011, 14:03
They do sell 10 man boxes. It's called the tactical squad box, comes with minimal extra bits and gets you almost twice as many models per buck as any of the fancy marine boxes.

That means that yes, we pay a premium that might otherwise get us 5 additional models for those extra redundant bits.

That'll be why the Bestigor box comes with more models than the equivalent High Elf and Empire specials kits then? Because they don't have any extra bits on the sprue so they must therefore have more models in them to make up for it.

I think it is fair to assume that if the Grey Knights for example only came with the bits to make a Grey Knight bog standard squad they would still only be 5 to a box and the same price.

Of course the tactical squad actually comes with plenty of extra bits these days anyway. Extra heads, purity seals, weapons options, command options, pistols, grenades pouches.

Like i said if you have extra stuff you absolutely do not want, stick it on Ebay. Alternatively PM me and i'll give you my address and you can mail all your unwanted bits to me to dispose of :D I won't even charge you.

Sir_Turalyon
23-11-2011, 14:13
But seriously, how much conversion work will you do?

Every mini that could benefit from one, which is vast majority of them.



Will you ever use ALL of them?

No, but I don't know which ones I may want to use. Pretty often I have a general idea of what I want to accomplish then I sink through the bits until i find bits that allow me to do this, bits used determining final form of conversion. Besides, you never know when you'll want to decorate a battlewagon or loota unit, bulid a kutom combi weapon or do other conversion where almost any bits will do, if used imaginevly.



To that end, would it not be better to have nothing sitting around gathering dust and when you do want to perform a conversion you make a small bits order?

To pay the money for things I already have, or would have had it not thrown them away? No one forces you, or anyone, to keep all their bits. Nothing stops you from throwing away the useless bits and keeping the ones you may want to use. Nothing stops me from using bits you would have thrown away and discarding bits you would use. But to keep us both happy, both kinds of bits must be on sale. Which means on the sprue, along with five basic minis we both want. To keep the bitz orders going, bitz must be on the sprues. Can't avoid that.

Lars Porsenna
23-11-2011, 14:58
I keep all my bits in small tupperware containers, a different one for each army. Personally I find them invaluable. When I decided to reboot my marines, searching through my bits revealed 5 power fists (including a plastic 2e one!) for the sergeants, as well as a number of plasma pistols. So my sergeants have power fist/p.pistol combos that IIRC are not available in the Tac Squad boxed set. I paid nothing for these.

Similarly, when I was working on my World Eaters army, I "converted" one of the Terminators using the fanged head from the Berzerkers set. While not much of a conversion, it does make mine look different from many of the others (other than paintjob). I also have a bunch of lightning claws from loyalist Terminators that will someday find their way to equip Iron Warrior terminators (because there are NO CSM lightning claws for either power armor OR Terminators, except for one in the CSM lord set). This costs me nothing.

One thing about buying bits from vendors is that often a bit is much, much more expensive, depending on how useful/popular that bit is. Over at TheWarStore, if anything looks "pre-heresy" it's more expensive (probably because of all those doing pre-heresy marine armies, before the Forgeworld models came out). My current SM army is Raven Guard, so I like to have a lot of beakies for fluff reasons. But these parts are much more expensive compared to the regular Mk VII bits...

Damon.

Scorpion0x17
23-11-2011, 15:26
One could always magnetise everything...

Necrofencer
23-11-2011, 15:55
I find bits in platic invaluable. This is the possibility to do everything I want.

I take my footslogging IG. I use four boxes : Command, Normal, Heavy Weapon, Sentinel. With those, I can do everything in my army. I can kitbash an HWS with some normal guards and the sentinels weapons. I can do credible Penal Legions or Vets with the metric ton of "useless" bits I have. I can cut two bits to make another more useful.

One of my legionnaire have 5 knives, a sword and a rifle. Is it useful game-wise? No. Does it looks awesome? Hell yes!

Spider-pope
23-11-2011, 17:05
To that end, would it not be better to have nothing sitting around gathering dust and when you do want to perform a conversion you make a small bits order?

Well to answer your question: I never know when inspiration will strike me. So its better to have a well stocked bits box ready rather than think of something, go on the internet, pay extra - and for some parts extortionate prices - and then wait a week for it to be delivered before i can actually do anything.

And to be honest i like having a big box of spare parts to rummage around in. Sometimes just finding a head or gun i've forgotten about can spur me into a new conversion or new base decoration.

Fingers
23-11-2011, 17:27
I bought 5 torsos and legs for GK on Ebay. Paid $14 total. With that, i was able to make 5 extra terminators out of leftover arms/bits from GK terminator box.

Couple missing shoulder guards, but Im sure Ill have some extras with the next box set I get.

ForgottenLore
23-11-2011, 17:43
the Dwarf miners sprue. It includes even a pony for gods sake!
Really?! That is so cool. You don't happen to know a bit supplier that has those in the US do you?

Griefbringer
23-11-2011, 18:36
ForgottenLore is planning a My Little Pony army???

Voss
23-11-2011, 18:51
The MORE has to be of some reasonable utility though.

Despite all the fanfare of the Necron kits in particular (and a whole raft of kits before them) being "Multi use" this actually helps the collector not one iota.

Actually it helps a lot. The leftover weapons are great for building lords and crypteks rather than buying overpriced finecast versions of the same model.

Bookwrak
23-11-2011, 19:00
The basic gist is you can't do anything with nothing. Meanwhile, I know people who are taking advantage of the popularity of Immortals to gather up Deathmark heads and use them on all their warriors too.

Max1mum
23-11-2011, 19:23
for you people with left over plastic

http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pur&sou=adv

http://www.ebay.com for those with left over plastic and time to spend on it.

Personaly i can't get enough extra bits with my guys, yes the plastic could be spend on 'more models' but for me that's not so the fun part of this hobby.

For me, and i guess for everybody that loves more bits a big part of the hobby is the crafting part. If all you want is to get your army cheaper then you maybe should not have picked up this particular hobby.

Games Workshop does not produce those models just for the game. The models are for the hobbyist, who actualy enjoy fiddeling around with options.

If Games workshop did produce just a board game, they would not need 'creative' models. Simple blocks and standard sized models could play that part.

You have to look at those multy part kits as hobby projects first and foremost, and gaming material second. And as such, the 5 man plastic consuming moxes are fantastic.

zoltan
23-11-2011, 20:42
what they could and should do is a basic set for each with no extras so you only pay for what you need, rather than combine and make you pay for extras you dont need.

So instead of buying a kit that can make 5 of this type or 5 of that type. they should each have their own kit.

and/or sprues of extras to make the basic into alternatives.

They only make dual kits/kits with extras to bleed money from their shrinking player base (shrinking because of their absurd prices rising more than twice the speed of inflation).

Their business model is only hurting the hobby and will ultimately implode. Each year their customer base shrinks even if their profits remain due to rapidly increasing prices.

Rated_lexxx
23-11-2011, 21:03
what they could and should do is a basic set for each with no extras so you only pay for what you need, rather than combine and make you pay for extras you dont need.

So instead of buying a kit that can make 5 of this type or 5 of that type. they should each have their own kit.

and/or sprues of extras to make the basic into alternatives.

They only make dual kits/kits with extras to bleed money from their shrinking player base (shrinking because of their absurd prices rising more than twice the speed of inflation).

Their business model is only hurting the hobby and will ultimately implode. Each year their customer base shrinks even if their profits remain due to rapidly increasing prices.

Could there be another reason why there customer base shrinks. I think the poor economy could have something to do with it. Can't spend money on hobbies if you don't have a job.

It surprises that this is a issue. Getting to many extra bitz?

Anyone remember when you got No extra bitz. A box of nobz came with exactly one nob with a PK

I do miss GW selling bitz directly to us though

Bunnahabhain
23-11-2011, 21:14
Privateer Press don't seem to have a shrinking player base thanks to the economy.
Back on topic....

I prefer getting a decent set of bits in the box. I loved getting 2 out 4 special weapons and 0 out of 5 heavy weapons with my Guard squads...

Griefbringer
23-11-2011, 21:14
what they could and should do is a basic set for each with no extras so you only pay for what you need, rather than combine and make you pay for extras you dont need.

So instead of buying a kit that can make 5 of this type or 5 of that type. they should each have their own kit.

and/or sprues of extras to make the basic into alternatives.

They only make dual kits/kits with extras to bleed money from their shrinking player base

Actually, with plastics it is cheaper for them to do a dual-purpose sprue than two slightly smaller single-purpose sprues, due to the difference in tooling costs. And with plastic kits, tooling costs are a major expense.

It also results in more streamlined production, printing, packacing and warehouse logistics due to only having one product to handle instead of two. It also results in taking less space in store shelves (often a limited resource in your typical hobby store).

The only additional expenses come from slightly increased material usage, and possibly slightly higher transport expenses due to increased weight. However, plastic as a raw material is relatively cheap and light.

Pooky
23-11-2011, 21:21
what they could and should do is a basic set for each with no extras so you only pay for what you need, rather than combine and make you pay for extras you dont need.

So instead of buying a kit that can make 5 of this type or 5 of that type. they should each have their own kit.

and/or sprues of extras to make the basic into alternatives.

They only make dual kits/kits with extras to bleed money from their shrinking player base (shrinking because of their absurd prices rising more than twice the speed of inflation).

Their business model is only hurting the hobby and will ultimately implode. Each year their customer base shrinks even if their profits remain due to rapidly increasing prices.

You raise a very interesting point here! A friend of mine and I were discussing one night over a game something very similar to what you propose. In essence we discussed how it would be great if GW sold a 'basic' box and a separate box for 'upgrades'. For example let's look at Space Marines. We could have a basic box of 10 Space Marines with Boltguns. If we wanted then to, say, make a Devestator Squad, we could have a separate Devestator Squad box with only the Heavy Weapons, or even simpler, a single Heavy Weapon (that way, if you only want 1 Heavy Bolter then you don't have a Rocket Launcher, Plasma Cannon, Lascannon, etc floating around doing nothing). A similar system would also work with WFB, there could be a standard 'regiment' box for all of your rank and file troops and then have a 'Command upgrade' sprue that has bits for your Unit Champion, Muso and Banner.

Admittedly, this system above may not be 'perfect', but it may drive prices down since we are not being charged so much for bits we don't want to use in boxes as they currently are.

Rated_lexxx
23-11-2011, 21:26
Privateer Press don't seem to have a shrinking player base thanks to the economy.
Back on topic....

I prefer getting a decent set of bits in the box. I loved getting 2 out 4 special weapons and 0 out of 5 heavy weapons with my Guard squads...

Not trying to be snarky but can you show me where it shows PP is not losing customers and GW is.

I actually haven't seen something ...I guess I am looking for...offical to show this.

I think both companies are doing good in the sluggish economy considering everything

Lars Porsenna
23-11-2011, 22:10
Admittedly, this system above may not be 'perfect', but it may drive prices down since we are not being charged so much for bits we don't want to use in boxes as they currently are.

This would probably either drive prices up, or require the parts manufactured in metal/finecast, or both. Rather than churning out hundreds of the same sprue during a run, now we're producing smaller runs (because you have more molds to run in a fixed period of time) of individual parts. This creates an increased rarity, and GW can demand higher prices for the parts.

Besides which, what extra utility is there in selling "upgrade" boxes? This requires GW to maintain two different products in their inventory, and requires me to buy two seperate products to get one unit. GW already has a "generic" sprue for Space Marines (its the one with 5 marines on it, split in the middle to fit the box); why would you not include that in the Devastators box? No it is not hard to buy two different boxes to make one unit, but it is less convenient and -- more importantly -- confusing for someone new to the hobby.

Damon.

AlexHolker
23-11-2011, 22:14
Not trying to be snarky but can you show me where it shows PP is not losing customers and GW is.

I actually haven't seen something ...I guess I am looking for...offical to show this.
From what I've heard, PP's problem is that they can't keep up with demand. That would suggest they're not running short on customers.

Scorpion0x17
23-11-2011, 23:18
what they could and should do is a basic set for each with no extras so you only pay for what you need, rather than combine and make you pay for extras you dont need.

So instead of buying a kit that can make 5 of this type or 5 of that type. they should each have their own kit.

and/or sprues of extras to make the basic into alternatives.

I was going to say that makes a lot of sense, but then I started to think it through.

Essentially, if you take it to the n'th degree for, for example, Space Marines, you'd end up with a single box that just had, what? 'standard space marine' torsos? And then lots and lots of different boxes containing custom heads, arms, legs, backpacks, etc, etc?

The costs would be even more extortionate than they are already!

Now, come the time when GW's using 3D-printing, and the parts don't need sprues, then it could work!

Griefbringer
23-11-2011, 23:20
This would probably either drive prices up, or require the parts manufactured in metal/finecast, or both. Rather than churning out hundreds of the same sprue during a run, now we're producing smaller runs (because you have more molds to run in a fixed period of time) of individual parts. This creates an increased rarity, and GW can demand higher prices for the parts.


Not sure if everyone is aware, but GW mail order actually used to run a bits service, where you could order individually pretty much any of the metal items in production (as well as individual plastic sprues and so on). This was discontinued, to the disappointment of many - but it was probably also quite a lot to manage, with the multitude of individual components out there.

As regards the plastic kits, the trend for quite some years has been to streamline the inventory and to provide kits that provide for a multitude of options. For example on the fantasy side many of the Empire kits (such as state troops, artillery and pistoliers) have for a good while already provided possibilities to assemble the contents to provide two or more different unit types.

Taken to an extreme, perhaps one day we will see GW streamlining all of the power armoured marines into a single boxed set, providing the customer with 5 marine bodies and enough options to kit them out as either assault, tactical or devastator marines. Main challenge would be coming up with legs that would look good on both assault and devastator marines.

Rated_lexxx
23-11-2011, 23:38
From what I've heard, PP's problem is that they can't keep up with demand. That would suggest they're not running short on customers.

But it could also suggest that they have made enough money to get upgraded equipment. It's all how you look at it.

Trust me I give PP all the kudos in the world that they made a Table top game that can compete with GW. It's also good for the industry to have more then one "dog in the fight"

To be honest I don't think they "can't keep up with demands". I use to live in Maine and all the major gaming stores had a good supply of PP games, and now in Las Vegas all of the major gaming stores*and there are a lot more then what I am use to* have a good supply of PP games.

But back on topic I am amazed that don't matter what GW there is always someone unhappy. I love the extra bitz so I can convert a lot of my army

WildWeasel
24-11-2011, 00:10
Oh how I wish the Interceptors were just a few optional sticks instead of 5 massive excess backpacks. I'd love that space for some alternate heads and some more swords to choose from. Sadly, no, we get 10 backpacks for 5 models and no "easy" way to utilize them (unlike the Death Company box, where you can find plenty of uses for the leftover packs in a BA army).

Magnetizing Marine backpacks is about the easiest bit of magnetizing possible.

Scythe
24-11-2011, 07:15
That'll be why the Bestigor box comes with more models than the equivalent High Elf and Empire specials kits then? Because they don't have any extra bits on the sprue so they must therefore have more models in them to make up for it.

I think it is fair to assume that if the Grey Knights for example only came with the bits to make a Grey Knight bog standard squad they would still only be 5 to a box and the same price.

There's a difference between what is, and what should be. Taking fantasy elites as an example, it is also completely ridicules you pay almost twice the price for elite troops compared to core troops for what is essentially the same amount of plastic on the sprues.

Regardless on practical feasibility, the question asked is simple: would you prefer:
a) 5 models loaded with extras
or
b) 10 models without extras for the same price

It is a genuine question, and I can accept people answering the question differently. Brushing the question aside, however, is kind of the easy way out. I would expect quite a few people being happy building their army for half the price, even if it means you lose flexibility. I enjoy my extra bits as well, but it is a tough decision weighting those against potential extra models.

boogaloo
24-11-2011, 16:37
I use my plastic bits in conversions and terrain, usually just metalic scrap heaps, but i've cut bits away, and made backpacks, and pincer jaws, or sword handles. The size of the model means it need not be THAT detailed in sculpt, if a quick paint job can add the detail a human eye from five feet away thinks it's gorgeous.

ForgottenLore
24-11-2011, 16:51
Regardless on practical feasibility, the question asked is simple: would you prefer:
a) 5 models loaded with extras
or
b) 10 models without extras for the same price

It is a genuine question, and I can accept people answering the question differently.
Yes, yes it is, and I would point people who would prefer more basic models for less money to these, not quite half the price but my understanding is that these kits do not sell well at all.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440273a&prodId=prod1630084
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440209a&prodId=prod1400021
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440249a&prodId=prod1400022
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440265a&prodId=prod1160160

LonelyPath
24-11-2011, 17:19
From what I've heard, PP's problem is that they can't keep up with demand. That would suggest they're not running short on customers.

That could also mean problems in their manufacturing process, or a slow turn over in distribution. I know a guy that does a lot of promotional work for them and he says their delivery times are worse than Wyrds', which says a lot, lol. Saying that, both PP and Wyrd have produced successful systems and neither can keep up with demand.

@ ForgottenLore - those little booster boxes were a great idea from GW, I buy them now and then to fill out units :)

@ Scythe - I know I prefer boxes of less models if it means those boxes contain all of the options I'll need in a squad. I've more than had enough of boxes that barely scratched the surface when it came to options the squad has available on paper.

TheMav80
24-11-2011, 19:05
Yes, yes it is, and I would point people who would prefer more basic models for less money to these, not quite half the price but my understanding is that these kits do not sell well at all.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440273a&prodId=prod1630084
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440209a&prodId=prod1400021
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440249a&prodId=prod1400022
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440265a&prodId=prod1160160

I suppose it could be different elsewhere, but I have never seen those on a shelf. I don't go to a GW store though, so that could be a difference.

Those boxes may not be popular because they are a rip off. $25 for 5 Tactical Marines or $37.25 for 10.

If they sold a box that was 10 marines for half the price of the Tac box and all you got was enough parts to put together ten guys with bolters, I would bet people would buy it.

ehlijen
24-11-2011, 19:15
I suppose it could be different elsewhere, but I have never seen those on a shelf. I don't go to a GW store though, so that could be a difference.

Those boxes may not be popular because they are a rip off. $25 for 5 Tactical Marines or $37.25 for 10.

If they sold a box that was 10 marines for half the price of the Tac box and all you got was enough parts to put together ten guys with bolters, I would bet people would buy it.

I have not seen those boxes in any store here in Australia either.

But 10 marines for half the tactical box is going into more than just the 'bits vs more models debate' as it doesn't actually come with that many extra bits.

10 marines for 66%-75% of the tactical box would actually be just as popular and, by GW standards anyway, a more reasonable price than 50%.

Archibald_TK
24-11-2011, 20:00
I suppose it could be different elsewhere, but I have never seen those on a shelf. I don't go to a GW store though, so that could be a difference.
Personally I don't sell them simply because they are not costly enough. If a parent comes looking for some SM to buy for his kid with the intention of spending around 20 euro and see one of these boxes he will be tempted to instead buy one and the 13 remaining euro that I could have gained will simply be spent in another shop for something entirely unrelated (knowing people here, I'd say cigarettes =/). Their price is simply too different from the other boxes.

Col. Tartleton
24-11-2011, 23:09
I'm not concerned they raise their prices as much as that it has been a creeping thing. It just stinks that prices go up over time but it's how our money system works. As long as people have increased income to match it's irrelevant.

When I started 6th edition I think? it used to be something like 25 dollars for 20 skaven figures. Now it's like 35 dollars. That's a 1.25 to 1.75 a model. But they look a lot better so that's not really an issue. And wisely GW put the slings on a separate sprue for 8.25. If you added the extra sprues they'd probably sell it for $50. Stormvermin go for about 50 dollars for 20 but compared to the old metal ones it's not a big deal. Those SOBs were priced similarly back then as they are now. I think 10 were like 25 dollars or more.

Imperial Guard Cadians however give you 10 for about $30 and they were once like 20 for $25 too.

But it is what it is. As far as im concerned the elite armies should have more "stuff" to even out the cost. It's not like they aren't giving you options. Space Marines shouldn't be drastically less money for their point cost.

It's about 15 points for a marine and 5 points for a guardsman and they have about the same price tag and you need to buy more guard stuff as a result. It's just social justice :p

zoltan
24-11-2011, 23:56
I'm not concerned they raise their prices as much as that it has been a creeping thing. It just stinks that prices go up over time but it's how our money system works. As long as people have increased income to match it's irrelevant.

Thats the point though, gw prices dont keep pace with people income, they increase prices twice as fast or more than inflation.

Such that over the last 15 years price increases over inflation mean that the figures cost twice as much as they should if they had kept place with inflation. Thats a lot.

Which is why their sales are dropping. Yes they may make as much profit for less sales this way, but its a very short sighted policy, as the number of players decrease it has the effect of reducing it further still as their are less people for those to game with and so more will leave, so gw rises prices and mroe leave again etc etc... Sooner or later it wont be tenable and it will implode. If they didnt keep putting prices up so much faster than inflation they would be no worse off short term and far better off long term.

Gir
25-11-2011, 00:27
Regardless on practical feasibility, the question asked is simple: would you prefer:
a) 5 models loaded with extras
or
b) 10 models without extras for the same price


You should reword this, as the question is loaded.

It should be:

a) 5 models with all options
b) 10 models with minimal options

Chapters Unwritten
25-11-2011, 00:29
They do this to pick up sales from the wholesale guys who resell the bits.

ForgottenLore
25-11-2011, 01:57
Those boxes may not be popular because they are a rip off. $25 for 5 Tactical Marines or $37.25 for 10.
So $5 per figure, $3.73 per figure or $2.75 per figure, for marines. Some people are asking for figs with reduced options for a cheaper price, and they have done that with a couple lines. $27.50 for 10 marines (although you can't actually get an even 10). Savings of $10 (or more). I can see the more simple models not being popular with some people, but how do you view that as a rip off when they are cheaper (by a lot) than the regular kits?

pauduro
25-11-2011, 02:30
Maybe I am weird :(

I hate having boxes and boxes of bits after I have finished building an army but everyone else seems to like having stuff left over.

Send them to me :angel: prob solved

Pooky
25-11-2011, 03:34
Send them to me :angel: prob solved

And what would I get out of this exchange? Or should I say 'donation'? ;)

Scythe
25-11-2011, 07:03
It's about 15 points for a marine and 5 points for a guardsman and they have about the same price tag and you need to buy more guard stuff as a result. It's just social justice :p

Not only that, the guard set also includes less options than the marine squad. No heavy weapons, only two specials (which are, arguably, the least popular ones). I have been very, very lucky I bought my cadians before the split to boxes of 10.


You should reword this, as the question is loaded.

It should be:

a) 5 models with all options
b) 10 models with minimal options

Fair enough.

AndrewGPaul
25-11-2011, 08:47
And what would I get out of this exchange? Or should I say 'donation'? ;)

You don't want bits lying around, paduro does. If you send them to him, you have no bits, he does, everyone's happy.

Alternatively, just chuck 'em in the bin and don't worry about it.

TheMav80
25-11-2011, 14:58
You should reword this, as the question is loaded.

It should be:

a) 5 models with all options
b) 10 models with minimal options

I would rather have five with all the options. What I don't particularly want is extra little bits left over. I don't want 15 different heads in that five man box. Or five extra legs left over (but no torsos).Look at the assault marine box. You get ten extra torsos. I understand that the box wouldn't actually be cheaper without them; they would just keep charging the same amount.

Whenever GW says that a kit has 15 head options! They usually mean 3 sets of five heads. Not fifteen different ones.

Ideally, instead of having a bunch of random bits in the box, it would come with at least one of every weapon option. So a Tactical Marine box would come with 1 of each special weapon, heavy weapon, Sarge upgrade.

Badruk
25-11-2011, 15:07
1 word...
MAGNETS!!!

Col. Tartleton
25-11-2011, 17:17
I just think they ought to sell stuff in bulk (cheaper for them and us) and let the free market sort it out how people get a hold on smaller kits.

How much would the Battle Company Cost Normally?
Captain - 20 Dollars
Command Squad - 35 Dollars
6 Tactical Squads - 223.50 Dollars
2 Devastator Squads - 70 Dollars
2 Battle Squads - 50 Dollars
4 Assault Squads - 132 Dollars
8 Rhinos - 264 Dollars
1 Razorback - 35 Dollars

Total: $829.50

When they released it a few years back it was about 500 dollars. It was maybe twice as big as a Baneblade Box give or take? I think 200 dollars would be far more appropriate and would give you a much more reasonable bang for your buck. I mean they could drown you in plastic and barely raise their costs. Realistically they're paying for overhead costs and those would go down if they cut their costs instead of passing them on.

They could release these massive sets instead and stop dealing with the minute details. They could sell a box of 3 Land Raiders with all the options for 75 dollars. Or maybe 11 drop pods for 120 dollars. Or 40 dollars for 3 Land Speeders with all the bells and whistles. Or what have you. And then scale up the conversion kits. 5 Chapter Upgrade Frames for 30 dollars etc. 10 for 50.

Then people stop going "This is too expensive to buy" and start going "I don't think I'll ever get around to painting all of these."

Remember the 10 Leman Russ Box? Which would now actually be usable in a regular game let alone apocalypse? Imagine an Imperial Shield Company Box? Imagine 300 Cadians and 7 command squads for 400 dollars? 2 of those and you'll be getting close to filling an FOC chart... but not very close. (Damn you Cruddace!)

Scorpion0x17
25-11-2011, 18:05
1 word...
MAGNETS!!!

I and at least one other person has already suggested that!

ForgottenLore
25-11-2011, 18:55
It was maybe twice as big as a Baneblade Box give or take?
More like 4 times as big, I believe.

Khornies & milk
25-11-2011, 23:44
I'm going to play devil's advocate here...

I have seen a few people suggest cleaning the left overs from their sprues and store them away. All very neat and tidy (and would fit in very well with my OCD life).

Now, I'm throwing this out there... How does keeping the bits stored away in a box/ bag/ cupboard/ under the bed/ in the garage/ in the bomb shelter useful to anyone? You are not getting any use out of it. I understand the prospect of future conversions with the bits you have left over. But seriously, how much conversion work will you do? Will you ever use ALL of them? To that end, would it not be better to have nothing sitting around gathering dust and when you do want to perform a conversion you make a small bits order?

Well in my previous post I said I turned dozens of boxes of sprues into 3 Baneblade sized boxes of loose bitz, so stacked 3 high they don't take up much space or collect much dust at all:D.

Plus I know about 80/100 Gamers and they all know of my Bitz Box full of goodies, so why pay $5/6 for a Meltagun from an online Bitz store when I'll sell it to them for $2. I'd guess I've made a couple of hundred bucks so far, or just do swapsies for bits I need and they have.

To each their own I guess.

Pooky
26-11-2011, 05:58
Well in my previous post I said I turned dozens of boxes of sprues into 3 Baneblade sized boxes of loose bitz, so stacked 3 high they don't take up much space or collect much dust at all:D.

Plus I know about 80/100 Gamers and they all know of my Bitz Box full of goodies, so why pay $5/6 for a Meltagun from an online Bitz store when I'll sell it to them for $2. I'd guess I've made a couple of hundred bucks so far, or just do swapsies for bits I need and they have.

To each their own I guess.

I do appreciate your discussion about consolidating the boxes into a more compact system. But the problem remains of stuff sitting around not being used. Admittedly, it is a much smaller space, but it's still there. It only reduces a problem, it does not terminate it. Again, this may just be my OCD nature.

Also, if I am spending $2 for a Meltagun then I am most likely willing to spend $5. Heck, I am not going to bitch about $3 for something if I really want it.

Beppo1234
26-11-2011, 14:02
I do appreciate your discussion about consolidating the boxes into a more compact system. But the problem remains of stuff sitting around not being used. Admittedly, it is a much smaller space, but it's still there. It only reduces a problem, it does not terminate it. Again, this may just be my OCD nature.

Also, if I am spending $2 for a Meltagun then I am most likely willing to spend $5. Heck, I am not going to bitch about $3 for something if I really want it.

then how about this: do something with your left over bitz, instead of sitting on them forever

theunwantedbeing
26-11-2011, 14:21
I don't mind loads of extra bits and being able to make loads of different setups.

What I do mind is finding that if I had 5 more legs I could make 5 extra guys.
Similarly, only getting one of the good weapon, that's a little annoying.

But it's better than only having the bits to assemble everyone in one particular way and having nothing leftover.

I do wish I'de gotten ravagers instead of raiders though.....seeing as the former contains the entire kite for the latter and all the extra bits.

GW could probably make a tonne of money selling individual sprues through their site.

Pooky
26-11-2011, 21:30
I bought a box of Grey Knight Terminators yesterday. I found out that a 5 man box of Terminators comes with 13 different heads. How is having 8 extra heads good for me? When will I ever use them all?!

Max1mum
26-11-2011, 21:43
at least when you go and expand your army you won't have the same five heads over and over again ;-)

your second unit of Terminators can be just as unique as your first ;-) :P

Lord Damocles
26-11-2011, 21:44
Would you be complaining if you didn't get a Psycannon in the box?

LonelyPath
26-11-2011, 22:13
I bought a box of Grey Knight Terminators yesterday. I found out that a 5 man box of Terminators comes with 13 different heads. How is having 8 extra heads good for me? When will I ever use them all?!

WOW!!!! How about buying 2 boxes and finding 5 heads forcing you to use the same heads on 10 miniatures, I bet you'd complain about having enough too! Personally I wish the PAGK came with that many heads.

Rick Blaine
26-11-2011, 22:39
I bought a box of Grey Knight Terminators yesterday. I found out that a 5 man box of Terminators comes with 13 different heads. How is having 8 extra heads good for me? When will I ever use them all?!

I think you're playing the wrong game. Look into Warpath and Kings of War by Mantic Games and enjoy having cheap armies of 3 clones repeated over and over.

Pooky
26-11-2011, 22:55
I think you're playing the wrong game. Look into Warpath and Kings of War by Mantic Games and enjoy having cheap armies of 3 clones repeated over and over.

You misunderstand. Look at the Space Marine Tactical box. It has enough to make 10 Marines and it has some extra bits, but not enough to be cumbersome.

http://mayday.w.staszic.waw.pl/Spruepics/Tactical%20Squad/CombatSquad.jpg

It also allows us to models with unique poses.

Pooky
26-11-2011, 22:56
Would you be complaining if you didn't get a Psycannon in the box?

No. But when I get Halberds, Swords, Falcions, and so on, then yes...

Rick Blaine
26-11-2011, 22:57
So how many bits, exactly, are allowed before it gets "cumbersome?"

LonelyPath
26-11-2011, 23:53
You misunderstand. Look at the Space Marine Tactical box. It has enough to make 10 Marines and it has some extra bits, but not enough to be cumbersome.

http://mayday.w.staszic.waw.pl/Spruepics/Tactical%20Squad/CombatSquad.jpg

It also allows us to models with unique poses.

And also misses out most of the options for that unit. Not a good example in my opinion...

Lord Damocles
27-11-2011, 13:02
No. But when I get Halberds, Swords, Falcions, and so on, then yes...
But what if you don't want to use the Psycannon? Surely then it's just another pointless addition which you're forced to pay for/store?

If you wanted to make a whole squad with Halberds, wouldn't you complain if you couldn't? (Then you'd need to buy multiple boxes, and you'd have loads *more* bits left over!)


Look at the Space Marine Tactical box.
And people are always complaining that the Tactical box doesn't come with a Power Fist! :p

Scorpion0x17
28-11-2011, 01:11
Until they start using 3D printing (which would eliminate the need for sprues), whatever GW does regarding this they can't win.

If they put every possible combination in one box, some will complain about having to buy and store bits they don't want or need.

If they put one combination in a box, some people will complain either not having the parts they want, or having to buy multiple boxes to get those parts.

lbecks
28-11-2011, 01:23
Space Marines Tactical Box with the bare essentials: 37.25
Space Wolves Pack Box packed with extra bits to use on assault squads, devastators, and scouts: 37.25

As long as they're not charging for "extra" bits filled boxes i'm not going to complain about it. If you don't like the bits give them to a friend, sell them on ebay, or throw them in the garbage.

Okuto
28-11-2011, 01:34
I like having the extra arms and heads....cause then I can just go buy the legs and torsos offline and bang.....more models....

MajorWesJanson
28-11-2011, 02:32
I love the new bitz filled sprues. I'd take a GK sprue, Space Wolf sprue, or Guard Command Squad any day over the guard infantry sprues or Fire Warrior sprues.

zoltan
28-11-2011, 12:51
Space Marines Tactical Box with the bare essentials: 37.25
Space Wolves Pack Box packed with extra bits to use on assault squads, devastators, and scouts: 37.25

As long as they're not charging for "extra" bits filled boxes i'm not going to complain about it. If you don't like the bits give them to a friend, sell them on ebay, or throw them in the garbage.

Necron warriors £20 for 12 warriors and 12 scarabs - no options
necron immortals £20 for 5 with 2 model build options one having 2 weapon options

Same price for less than half the models, if you just want immortals you are effectively paying twice as much for them because of the extras.

If it was a case of the extras being a free bonus no one would complain, but they are charging twice as much by making you buy things you dont want.

Max1mum
28-11-2011, 12:59
...what do you mean ..'don't want' your buying them.

ergo, you want them.

Don't buy them if you don't want them.

Your like a smoker that complains about the nasty side effects he got from the things he spend his money on.



Again, those models are for hobbyist that enjoy the creative part of this hobby. If you want stuff to just play the game you don't need Citadel mini's you could just use Lego models.

From this thread alone you could find a gaming group of atleast 6 that agree with you.

I'm sure you guys will have a lot of fun with your take on the hobby.

For the rest of us, hooray for extra bits and moddeling options.

zoltan
28-11-2011, 17:34
...what do you mean ..'don't want' your buying them.

ergo, you want them.

Don't buy them if you don't want them.

Your like a smoker that complains about the nasty side effects he got from the things he spend his money on.



Again, those models are for hobbyist that enjoy the creative part of this hobby. If you want stuff to just play the game you don't need Citadel mini's you could just use Lego models.

From this thread alone you could find a gaming group of atleast 6 that agree with you.

I'm sure you guys will have a lot of fun with your take on the hobby.

For the rest of us, hooray for extra bits and moddeling options.

if you actualy read my post you would see i meant i dont want the extras. If i buy a squad of immortals i dont want to pay twice as much to have extra weapon arms, extra heads and extra backs that i wont use.

Rated_lexxx
28-11-2011, 20:43
having extra heads is awesome. You don't have to use the same one over over.

The extra bitz are only a waste if you get what you need personally and nothing else

But we can't have that because each person wants something different so we can't personalize to each customers need. better to have to much then to little

Konovalev
28-11-2011, 20:59
I cannot believe people are complaining about the extra bits in boxes. When I opened my first Grey Knight Terminator box I was blown away by the extra ccw's. Suddenly my space marine honour guard had weapons, and my chapter champion had a thunder hammer.

I don't believe for a second that money would be saved eliminating these options. Is GW charging you for these extra parts? Yes. Would acquiring all those parts through seperate kits be cheaper? NO!

minionboy
28-11-2011, 21:02
It's crazy hearing people hate extra stuff... I remember when they went from having a lot of bits to having no bits, it was terrible! At least now they're going back in the right direction and giving us bits again!

Bold_or_Stupid
28-11-2011, 21:32
Extra bits are th mutts nuts. I love having abox full of wolfy bits, which I can use to wolf up my vehicles. I can also swap bits with friends. My friend has just started up Grey Knights and I can grab those extra swords as alternate weapons when I help my GF build her all Sanguinary Guard Blood Angels force.

lbecks
28-11-2011, 22:30
Necron warriors £20 for 12 warriors and 12 scarabs - no options
necron immortals £20 for 5 with 2 model build options one having 2 weapon options

Same price for less than half the models, if you just want immortals you are effectively paying twice as much for them because of the extras.

If it was a case of the extras being a free bonus no one would complain, but they are charging twice as much by making you buy things you dont want.

That's actually the category of "pricing based on points" or "pricing based on category"
Immortals/deathmarks =/= warriors.
I think "pricing based on points" is something that is very annoying but that isn't the issue being discussed here. The old metal immortals back in 2004 when they were released were (US) 8 dollars each, 40 dollars for 5. Now that they're also plastic they're 33 for 5 in plastic. Do you think if they made a box of 5 plastic immortals, no extra anything they would sell them 16.50? No, they would sell them for 33.

In terms of actual same category models:

Grey Knight Terminators with extra bits: $50
Basic Terminators: $50

Regular Plastic bare bones Dreadnought: 44.50
Blood Angels Dreadnought with lots of bits: 44.50
Venerable Dreadnought with lots of bits: 44.50

Max1mum
29-11-2011, 07:43
rubbish stuff

your post might look like it has a point, it might look like it's well typed out.

It might even seem true.

But don't be fooled my friends. He also suggests we are now getting more value for our money.

He even suggests that a unit has become Cheaper ! ..CHEAPER! ..

We all know that is impossible, GW only ever makes stuff more expensive!.

...despite the fact your facts are true. They can never be true, for it is impossible for the interwebs to accept the fact GW sometimes makes stuff cheaper/better/more-awesome.


.....(should i ad a sarcasme tag? for savety?)

Scythe
29-11-2011, 08:49
...what do you mean ..'don't want' your buying them.

ergo, you want them.

Don't buy them if you don't want them.

Your like a smoker that complains about the nasty side effects he got from the things he spend his money on.



Again, those models are for hobbyist that enjoy the creative part of this hobby. If you want stuff to just play the game you don't need Citadel mini's you could just use Lego models.

From this thread alone you could find a gaming group of atleast 6 that agree with you.

I'm sure you guys will have a lot of fun with your take on the hobby.

For the rest of us, hooray for extra bits and moddeling options.

There is no need to attack someone for his personal preferences. There is a fine line between amount of models, extras, and value for money. That line lies differently for different people. and GW indeed cannot satisfy every possible customer.

Would you be happy if GW hypothetically decided to cut back the Grey Knight Terminators to 3 models per box, but doubles the amount of extra bits for the same price?

Max1mum
29-11-2011, 12:56
That would depend upon the unit in question and also the army.

If those 3 models would have a selection of weapons they can choose that requires so many extra bits. Then yes, i would aprove.

But i would only aprove if the relefant codex gives you the option to select 3, instead of a minimum of 5.

If a new codex presents us with a unit that has a minimum unit size of 3 and so many options that the sprue's can be stuffed with all those options. I would absolutely aprove. I would be even happyer if the 'éxtra bits' can then be recycled in other projects.

A bit like the current plastics box sets i guess.

Depulsor
29-11-2011, 13:09
I actually like the extra bits. For me, the extra stuff only starts to be bothersome, when I "need" to buy many boxes of the same unit.

tsuruki
29-11-2011, 14:56
Lots of good reasons already posted, but in case nobody pointed it out:
use the bits on other models.
Falchions make great power weapons and who doesnt love having extra storm bolters?
I personally know one or more ways to use very single bit in the necron boxes even though the torsons and feet are preoccupied becoming lychguard/immortals, the remaining bits become food for my Crypteks and Lords

aa.logan
29-11-2011, 15:41
I bought a box of assault terminators the other day, compared with all the great stuff you get on the (already quite old) Dark Angel sprue, what I got, even though the arm options are an improvement on the metal days, seemed sparse and bare.

The more oprions and bits, the better...

zoltan
29-11-2011, 18:23
I cannot believe people are complaining about the extra bits in boxes. When I opened my first Grey Knight Terminator box I was blown away by the extra ccw's. Suddenly my space marine honour guard had weapons, and my chapter champion had a thunder hammer.

I don't believe for a second that money would be saved eliminating these options. Is GW charging you for these extra parts? Yes. Would acquiring all those parts through seperate kits be cheaper? NO!


Bo but it WOULD be cheaper for someone NOT wanting those bits, THAT is the point.

And re immortals are not warriors, like duh i know that. My point was youre paying twice as much becasuse immortals are a dual kit with unusebale extras you dont want if youre just buying them for the 1 type. In other words, like i said, they are making you pay more for bits to make deathmarks that you cant use if you just want to get immortals in this example.

Yes some people make conversions etc and use the bits, but just as many dont and dont have the option to not buy the extras when buying what they DO want.

Selling extras as extras and letting those who dont want them get more of the basics is what im talking about, everyone pays for just what they want rather than paying more for extra parts they DONT want

Theocracity
29-11-2011, 18:49
Selling extras as extras and letting those who dont want them get more of the basics is what im talking about, everyone pays for just what they want rather than paying more for extra parts they DONT want

The problem with selling "extras as extras" is it's an inefficient production method. Currently they can make sprues that combine the unit's essentials with the extra good bits, utilizing space efficiently. If you separate those extras, you need to design them differently, and waste more time on the plastic injection machines with separate molds for sprues that not everyone will use.

Plus, who defines what is "basic" and what is "extra?" What if Deathmarks became the popular choice over Immortals? Are you going to force players to buy the base box (getting Immortal weapons they won't use) and then pay extra for an upgrade sprue they have to have shipped in?

zoltan
29-11-2011, 19:17
The problem with selling "extras as extras" is it's an inefficient production method. Currently they can make sprues that combine the unit's essentials with the extra good bits, utilizing space efficiently. If you separate those extras, you need to design them differently, and waste more time on the plastic injection machines with separate molds for sprues that not everyone will use.

Plus, who defines what is "basic" and what is "extra?" What if Deathmarks became the popular choice over Immortals? Are you going to force players to buy the base box (getting Immortal weapons they won't use) and then pay extra for an upgrade sprue they have to have shipped in?

They should have 2 kits 1 for immotals and 1 for deathmarks its not a difficult concept... Instead they make a dual kit because they can make them both use the same legs and chest - thats just a way to do what ive been saying, force people to pay more to get parts they dont want.

Oh and re the pricing for points that someone mentioned, that isnt true either :

warriors 13 points £20.50 for 12
flayed ones 13 points £25.50 for 5

Max1mum
29-11-2011, 19:39
...they are not Forcing anybody to anything.

They are giving you a choice and you have the power to say no.

Theocracity
29-11-2011, 19:49
They should have 2 kits 1 for immotals and 1 for deathmarks its not a difficult concept... Instead they make a dual kit because they can make them both use the same legs and chest - thats just a way to do what ive been saying, force people to pay more to get parts they dont want.

Oh and re the pricing for points that someone mentioned, that isnt true either :

warriors 13 points £20.50 for 12
flayed ones 13 points £25.50 for 5

Two separate kits means more inventory. It means more money and time spent on production, boxing, warehousing, and store shelf space that could be used on making / storing / selling new stuff.

Even leaving out customer reaction (positive or negative), combo kits seem like an obvious choice from a business perspective.

Konovalev
29-11-2011, 20:22
They should have 2 kits 1 for immotals and 1 for deathmarks its not a difficult concept... Instead they make a dual kit because they can make them both use the same legs and chest - thats just a way to do what ive been saying, force people to pay more to get parts they dont want.

Because parts commonality simplifies not only production(fewer moulds), but also distribution(fewer boxes to stuff into a truck) and shelf space(fewer boxes competing for space on the shelves). All of which saves money. Are there ulterior motives in combo-kits? Sure, what if deathmarks tank horribly due their rules, edition change, other new codices etc. Combo-kits help push a kit that might not sell as well seperate.

If you honestly think the nefarious Games(killing) Workshop(of DOOM) is out to bleed us of as much money as possible, why not just sell nothing but battle forces? Want necron warriors? 100$ will get you 30 in battleforce A, along with some scarabs, a monolith, and a destroyer lord among other things. Want Immortals/Deathmarks? 100$ battleforce B, along with canoptek spiders, destroyers/heavy destroyers, and a ghost ark among other things. (note how things which would be used together are in seperate battleforces forcing you to buy both)

Theocracity
29-11-2011, 20:35
Because parts commonality simplifies not only production(fewer moulds), but also distribution(fewer boxes to stuff into a truck) and shelf space(fewer boxes competing for space on the shelves). All of which saves money. Are there ulterior motives in combo-kits? Sure, what if deathmarks tank horribly due their rules, edition change, other new codices etc. Combo-kits help push a kit that might not sell as well seperate.

If you honestly think the nefarious Games(killing) Workshop(of DOOM) is out to bleed us of as much money as possible, why not just sell nothing but battle forces? Want necron warriors? 100$ will get you 30 in battleforce A, along with some scarabs, a monolith, and a destroyer lord among other things. Want Immortals/Deathmarks? 100$ battleforce B, along with canoptek spiders, destroyers/heavy destroyers, and a ghost ark among other things. (note how things which would be used together are in seperate battleforces forcing you to buy both)

Indeed.

And even if you're of the opinion that combo kits are designed to make more money - well, you're right! That's kind of what a business is supposed to do. They save overhead costs and can be sold for more profit, and customers even like it due to the extra bits.

And what do they do with all that money? Put it in a giant Scrooge McDuck money bin and go diving? Hopefully, no. They use the extra money to reinvest in the company. They ensure they can get / keep high quality sculptors, artists and writers by offering better compensation. They can spend more on development, or go out on a limb and release a slightly riskier army without threat of going bankrupt. They can open more stores, expand their support structure for gamers or push suppliers for higher quality materials.

Or maybe they can just keep paying the monthly bills to keep the lights on, as a niche luxury company weathering a recession.

Until prices make sales drop, they can charge whatever the market will pay for it. That's business.

Ace Rimmer
29-11-2011, 21:28
I love all the extra's the new kits come with. I'm planning on using my spares to build wraiths, crypteks, lord's, spider's and hopefully tomb-blades with a little imaginative use of plasticard/styrofoam/fastglas.

lbecks
29-11-2011, 21:43
They should have 2 kits 1 for immotals and 1 for deathmarks its not a difficult concept... Instead they make a dual kit because they can make them both use the same legs and chest - thats just a way to do what ive been saying, force people to pay more to get parts they dont want.

Oh and re the pricing for points that someone mentioned, that isnt true either :

warriors 13 points £20.50 for 12
flayed ones 13 points £25.50 for 5

warriors =/= flayed ones in category.

And you think if GW gave you 5 immortals or death marks in a box with nothing else they'd charge you less than 33 dollars for it? Not likely. The Basic Terminators are split into two bare bones boxes and they still charge you 50. They would probably charge more for the death marks if they made them a sole plastic kit. But would they fill the box with just immortal oriented extra bits as they tend to do now? I think they would and that would be a plus. And you would probably still complain that there are too many bits and GW is squeezing every penny (I think they're squeezing every penny from you in others ways, but not from more bits on a sprue) from you even when there are solid examples like Tactical Marines, Dreadnoughts, and Terminators where they pack more bits into a new box for equivalent price on equivalent older bare bones models.

Alan
29-11-2011, 21:43
I would just like to say that if someone is having problem with extra bits I would be more than grateful to take them (any army, any bits, post cost on me), just drop PM.
P.S. I am not joking.

Pooky
29-11-2011, 22:50
There is one issue that some people have raised and others have glossed over and I would like re-iterate.

If people like extra bits, then that's great. But what if you want something like a 4 Lascannon Devestator Squad? I need to buy 4 boxes of Devestators just to make the squad? That also leaves me a tonne of other heavy weapons that I am not using. How does that save me $$$?

Gir
29-11-2011, 22:57
Necron warriors £20 for 12 warriors and 12 scarabs - no options
necron immortals £20 for 5 with 2 model build options one having 2 weapon options

Same price for less than half the models, if you just want immortals you are effectively paying twice as much for them because of the extras.

If it was a case of the extras being a free bonus no one would complain, but they are charging twice as much by making you buy things you dont want.

Do you have any idea how much bigger Immortals are to warriors? You're basically complaining that 10 Space marines cost more then 10 imperial guardsmen.

Voss
29-11-2011, 23:05
There is one issue that some people have raised and others have glossed over and I would like re-iterate.

If people like extra bits, then that's great. But what if you want something like a 4 Lascannon Devestator Squad? I need to buy 4 boxes of Devestators just to make the squad? That also leaves me a tonne of other heavy weapons that I am not using. How does that save me $$$?

Buy bits. Trade bits. Sell bits. It comes to very little $$$ if you interact with other people in a fairly minimal way.

Nocculum
29-11-2011, 23:08
I wonder if GW could offer a plastic amnesty box in their stores... 'return your sprues and bits', receive £1 for every 100grams of sprue or something similar?

Encourage recycling, do your bit for the environment, reduce waste, and GW gets their environmental license?

Pooky
29-11-2011, 23:28
I wonder if GW could offer a plastic amnesty box in their stores... 'return your sprues and bits', receive £1 for every 100grams of sprue or something similar?

Encourage recycling, do your bit for the environment, reduce waste, and GW gets their environmental license?

I never ever thought of combining reduction of GWs carbon footprint with my hobby. Ha! :)

Nocculum
29-11-2011, 23:34
Call it a lethargy afterthought of my master's proposal...:shifty:.

Naturally, the scales would be rigged and the money would come in the form of vouchers or store credit, but every cloud, something silver, lining based, yadda yadda...

Beppo1234
29-11-2011, 23:45
I wonder if GW could offer a plastic amnesty box in their stores... 'return your sprues and bits', receive £1 for every 100grams of sprue or something similar?

Encourage recycling, do your bit for the environment, reduce waste, and GW gets their environmental license?

as I posted earlier, my local GW does trade in days about once a month. On that day you can bring in your bitz box, old or new minis you don't want anymore. You can then barter with other customers on fair trade prices. It's a great event which allows you to offload things you don't want/need, in exchange for something you do.

to the original poster... GW is not in the business of saving YOU money. You've been told by many posters here on your available options. It's taken years for GW to start producing kits where most options are available. Your desire for less runs counter to what they've been working to achieve. Tough luck.

So your options: ebay, bits traders, bits trade in days, find a friend who will buy/take your leftovers, or get creative and find something to do with those left over bits... or how about playing a different army where options are not so overdone

Pooky
30-11-2011, 00:22
as I posted earlier, my local GW does trade in days about once a month. On that day you can bring in your bitz box, old or new minis you don't want anymore. You can then barter with other customers on fair trade prices. It's a great event which allows you to offload things you don't want/need, in exchange for something you do.

I agree that's a fantastic idea. Let me tell you a story.... One day I took my bits to a GW store and people were interested in looking and buying. I was then pulled to a quiet corner of the store by one of the staff and said not to bring my bits in again. If I did do it I would be banned from the store. The reasoning was that I was detracting the store from making sales.

TheMav80
30-11-2011, 01:27
I agree that's a fantastic idea. Let me tell you a story.... One day I took my bits to a GW store and people were interested in looking and buying. I was then pulled to a quiet corner of the store by one of the staff and said not to bring my bits in again. If I did do it I would be banned from the store. The reasoning was that I was detracting the store from making sales.

Most stores are like this, even independents, to some extent.

The ones I have been a part of, you weren't allowed to trade or sell your things IN store. If you wanted to do it you had to meet up elsewhere later. Like walk 20 feet away and do it.

ForgottenLore
30-11-2011, 01:30
Whereas my local store currently has someone posting on the store's forums asking for bits, and no one from the store seems to mind.

xiamatis133
30-11-2011, 05:51
This is a little off topic; however, if someone could humor me I would be most grateful.

I'm new to warhammer 40k and while buying my little army, necrons ftw, I had the idea of making my own models via resin. Now, I know alot of people do convert some models to save on costs. I'm not new to building models and I'm experienced with casting molds and making resin copies of parts (tank barrels, wheels, turrets, etc.) So my question is, in order to save on some of the costs of making my army; would it be acceptable to use my own copies in competitive play?

Now, many would ask how they could tell, and the simple fact of the matter is that creating multiple molds can get pricey. So, in the end, all of my resin casted copies would all have the same pose, where as, many of GW's models come in a variety of positions. I would be using this technique on expensive boxes. For example, the necron flayed ones since it's roughly $40 for 5 units; however, each one looks different from another and mine would all look the same.

On another note, my molds open up new options for me as well. I can etch my "master unit" before molding which will add more detail to the model, then transfer that detail into the mold, and make multiple units with the added detail.

If anyone has a solid answer for me you have my thanks in advance!

Beppo1234
30-11-2011, 10:28
I agree that's a fantastic idea. Let me tell you a story.... One day I took my bits to a GW store and people were interested in looking and buying. I was then pulled to a quiet corner of the store by one of the staff and said not to bring my bits in again. If I did do it I would be banned from the store. The reasoning was that I was detracting the store from making sales.

yeah, usually they are like this, except on the days they promote the trade in day. I thought it was kind of wierd too, but my local manager thinks of it as maintaining the community, which is an important part of the hobby, and for GW's business. That being said, having people trade in store, is probably better for business than it happening on ebay... and may result in sales. I traded two Imperators for a new dreadnaught that was bought that day for me by the guy who wanted them.

It's certainly one of the best ideas I've seen come from a gw outlet

zoltan
30-11-2011, 11:10
Originally Posted by zoltan
They should have 2 kits 1 for immotals and 1 for deathmarks its not a difficult concept... Instead they make a dual kit because they can make them both use the same legs and chest - thats just a way to do what ive been saying, force people to pay more to get parts they dont want.

Oh and re the pricing for points that someone mentioned, that isnt true either :

warriors 13 points £20.50 for 12
flayed ones 13 points £25.50 for 5



warriors =/= flayed ones in category.

I was responding to the post someone made that models are priced based on points rather than contents of pack and highlighting that isnt the case. But if you want to say its based on points cost and slot then lets compare 2 packs from necron elites :

Deathmarks 19 points £20.50 for 5
Lychguard 40 points £20.50 for 5

so thats 2 units, same army, same slot, one twice the points of the other but both same cost, proof that prices have nothing to do with points cost, even discounting my previous proof because it was a differnt foc slot


Until prices make sales drop, they can charge whatever the market will pay for it. That's business.

Their prices ARE making sales drop, thats why they keep putting them up to cover the lost sales, a stupid unsustanablel practice

Konovalev
30-11-2011, 16:16
Their prices ARE making sales drop, thats why they keep putting them up to cover the lost sales, a stupid unsustainable practice

You don't seriously believe the price increases are to cover sale shortages, which you claim to be caused by high prices, do you?

Theocracity
30-11-2011, 16:49
Their prices ARE making sales drop, thats why they keep putting them up to cover the lost sales, a stupid unsustanablel practice

That's not how business works.

Pooky
30-11-2011, 20:41
This is a little off topic; however, if someone could humor me I would be most grateful.

I'm new to warhammer 40k and while buying my little army, necrons ftw, I had the idea of making my own models via resin. Now, I know alot of people do convert some models to save on costs. I'm not new to building models and I'm experienced with casting molds and making resin copies of parts (tank barrels, wheels, turrets, etc.) So my question is, in order to save on some of the costs of making my army; would it be acceptable to use my own copies in competitive play?

Now, many would ask how they could tell, and the simple fact of the matter is that creating multiple molds can get pricey. So, in the end, all of my resin casted copies would all have the same pose, where as, many of GW's models come in a variety of positions. I would be using this technique on expensive boxes. For example, the necron flayed ones since it's roughly $40 for 5 units; however, each one looks different from another and mine would all look the same.

On another note, my molds open up new options for me as well. I can etch my "master unit" before molding which will add more detail to the model, then transfer that detail into the mold, and make multiple units with the added detail.

If anyone has a solid answer for me you have my thanks in advance!

I know people who cast resin models and use them. I think it's fine. I have a friend who bought some 'knock off' models for his army and once they were painted I couldn't tell the difference between the 'real deal' the the knock offs. Just don't mention that your resin casting in a GW store and you'll be fine.

Pooky
30-11-2011, 20:45
Their prices ARE making sales drop, thats why they keep putting them up to cover the lost sales, a stupid unsustanablel practice

I agree to 1/2 of that statement; because of their high prices I am not buying as much as I used to (or ever will again).

If the price increase it is to cover their short fall from people like me not buying as much, well, that I can't say. It does sound like a theory, but I don't know if that is THE theory as to why they are increasing their prices.

Harwammer
30-11-2011, 21:03
I've been following this thread, but am not sure if this point has been made: Extras on sprue help protect you against edition change.

Say you have a Necron army loaded out with Immortals (cos they are bestest!). Imagine 6th ed 40k comes along and gives Deathmarks +9001 hit points and immortals now explode on deployment. All of a sudden you're glad you have the bits to convert your Immortal horde into Deathmarks without spending any extra wonga!

It's a slightly silly example, but I hope it makes my point. For less silly examples imagine how a change to the AP / AV systems could impact the popularity of meltas. Likewise consider how 8th ed warhammer reversed Empire's in vogue state troopers from swordsmen to halberdiers!

Theocracity
30-11-2011, 21:06
I agree to 1/2 of that statement; because of their high prices I am not buying as much as I used to (or ever will again).

If the price increase it is to cover their short fall from people like me not buying as much, well, that I can't say. It does sound like a theory, but I don't know if that is THE theory as to why they are increasing their prices.

The problem with the theory of "lower prices = more sales, higher prices = less sales" is that 40K - and miniature modeling in general - is kind of an inelastic market. (forgive me if I use some economic terms incorrectly; I'm familiar with the concepts but not the jargon).

What I mean is, even if they kept lower prices that doesn't necessarily mean that people are going to buy more. If a box of elites for an army is $20, that doesn't necessarily mean more people will buy it than if it was priced at $25. They might not collect that army, or use that unit. Not every customer can be counted on to start a new army, or keep buying units to make Apocalypse armies. They might have bought everything they need years ago, and won't care how cheap it would be to buy another box.

Similarly, if you are starting a new army, it doesn't matter if the troops you need are $20 or $25 - if you're committed to collecting that army, you're still going to buy them.

Therefore increasing prices to keep up with inflation / increase profit to drive the business isn't necessarily cutting back on sales - it might just be irritating people who weren't going to buy anyway.

ColShaw
30-11-2011, 21:42
The problem with the theory of "lower prices = more sales, higher prices = less sales" is that 40K - and miniature modeling in general - is kind of an inelastic market. (forgive me if I use some economic terms incorrectly; I'm familiar with the concepts but not the jargon).

What I mean is, even if they kept lower prices that doesn't necessarily mean that people are going to buy more. If a box of elites for an army is $20, that doesn't necessarily mean more people will buy it than if it was priced at $25. They might not collect that army, or use that unit. Not every customer can be counted on to start a new army, or keep buying units to make Apocalypse armies. They might have bought everything they need years ago, and won't care how cheap it would be to buy another box.

Similarly, if you are starting a new army, it doesn't matter if the troops you need are $20 or $25 - if you're committed to collecting that army, you're still going to buy them.

Therefore increasing prices to keep up with inflation / increase profit to drive the business isn't necessarily cutting back on sales - it might just be irritating people who weren't going to buy anyway.

Except that miniatures gaming and wargaming are not exclusive to GW. Reducing market share is a terrible long-term business move, and this is as true in an inelastic market as in an elastic one--maybe even more so, because there are fewer fans available to fight over. I, for one, have no intention of starting any more GW armies in the near future, nor of adding significantly to the ones I already possess--and the sole reason for this is the absurd (to my view) pricing. I don't know how much of that is attributable to the extras on sprues; maybe not so much, since FineCast suffers the same problem. What increasing prices beyond what the market can comfortably bear will do is drive people like me to other companies and other systems. I'll keep buying and painting models; who am I kidding? But I won't buy GW's anymore.

Theocracity
30-11-2011, 22:06
Except that miniatures gaming and wargaming are not exclusive to GW. Reducing market share is a terrible long-term business move, and this is as true in an inelastic market as in an elastic one--maybe even more so, because there are fewer fans available to fight over. I, for one, have no intention of starting any more GW armies in the near future, nor of adding significantly to the ones I already possess--and the sole reason for this is the absurd (to my view) pricing. I don't know how much of that is attributable to the extras on sprues; maybe not so much, since FineCast suffers the same problem. What increasing prices beyond what the market can comfortably bear will do is drive people like me to other companies and other systems. I'll keep buying and painting models; who am I kidding? But I won't buy GW's anymore.

But is it really just the prices that are driving your decision? If the other miniature wargame companies offered an inferior product you'd be less inclined to switch. If Warmachines is offering a quality product at a reasonable price, you have a good reason to switch - but that might just be because the company that makes them is currently doing a better job of managing the profits it gets towards the direct product you're interested in.

Games Workshop is an old company with a lot of ongoing investments, and it probably has to spend a larger share on managing those than other companies. This can be a benefit for customers - in the form of local stores, good direct shipping support, a wider model and licensing line. But that may not be what you're looking for as a customer.

tl;dr: Mo' money, mo' problems.

ColShaw
30-11-2011, 22:30
Games Workshop is an old company with a lot of ongoing investments, and it probably has to spend a larger share on managing those than other companies. This can be a benefit for customers - in the form of local stores, good direct shipping support, a wider model and licensing line. But that may not be what you're looking for as a customer.

tl;dr: Mo' money, mo' problems.

Yeah... about that. I live in Minnesota. There isn't a GW store within 200 miles of me. No local store. I don't buy from their online store, because they don't offer the discounts I can get elsewhere. And I don't care about licensing. So no, you're right, none of those are things I'm looking for as a customer... except maybe a wider model line. But those models are too pricy now.

Theocracity
30-11-2011, 22:39
Yeah... about that. I live in Minnesota. There isn't a GW store within 200 miles of me. No local store. I don't buy from their online store, because they don't offer the discounts I can get elsewhere. And I don't care about licensing. So no, you're right, none of those are things I'm looking for as a customer... except maybe a wider model line. But those models are too pricy now.

Yeah. Ultimately, the reasons to switch are a lot simpler for a lot of customers like you.

I think GW's intent is to use all these investments to bring in new customers (customer reps and storefronts to introduce new players, video game and novels to bring attention to the brand), whereas Warmahordes appeals more to those who are already in the miniature war gaming hobby and are looking for something new. Because they don't have to pay for the same support structure as GW they can charge better prices for comparable quality product. GW pays a price for investing in the future and building the hobby, especially when vets it created migrate away due to prices.

Business is hard :P.

TheMav80
30-11-2011, 22:46
There is a Warmachine video game coming out soon though.

Theocracity
30-11-2011, 22:50
There is a Warmachine video game coming out soon though.

As companies get bigger, they tend to look for ways to invest. Warmachine is getting bigger, and may one day have the same problems GW has. GW may try to mitigate its size problems by cutting down. Things always change.

Rated_lexxx
30-11-2011, 23:27
[QUOTE=TheMav80;5943049]There is a Warmachine video game coming out soon though.[/QUOTE

I thought it was already out, and from what I hear it isn't that good.

Pooky
01-12-2011, 03:00
[QUOTE=TheMav80;5943049]There is a Warmachine video game coming out soon though.[/QUOTE

I thought it was already out, and from what I hear it isn't that good.

*Cough* Fire Warrior *Cough*

ModelCalamity
01-12-2011, 03:13
Maybe I am weird :(

I hate having boxes and boxes of bits after I have finished building an army but everyone else seems to like having stuff left over.

Your solution to this is easy....
Use your garbage bin as a bit box :D

The extra bits are the best thing about GW kits IMHO.

self biased
01-12-2011, 05:18
geedub kits are probably the best on the market. it is because of the fact that they aren't finished products that rackham's minis, or even Privateer Press's minis are. even simple head swaps breathe new and awesome life into old minis.

Rated_lexxx
01-12-2011, 16:15
[QUOTE=Rated_lexxx;5943149]

*Cough* Fire Warrior *Cough*

I didn't say gw had only great games. That one was horrible. The rts games I hear are awesome

Capamaru
01-12-2011, 21:16
Spare bits? what spare bits? You mean the ones attached to magnets..?!? The solution is simple. Magnetize cause in the long run it will save you money and it will give you the option to field all the useful choices in your army.

Pooky
02-12-2011, 03:15
I see a lot of people mentioning magnetising the spare bits. Does this not create more work for the sake of something that should not be faulty in the first place? It would be like buying a new car knowing that it has something wrong with it. Of which, you need to expend more time, money and effort to fix the thing...?

Bookwrak
02-12-2011, 04:27
Wow. You COULD be more wrong, but it'd take significant effort.

No. It means you buy one thing, and get two or more things worth of use out of it WITHOUT having to buy those other things. Like my magnatized Crisis suits. Or my magnetized leman russes. Instead of having bought a dozen or more of them to get all the combinations I want, I have half dozen of one, three of the other.

LonelyPath
02-12-2011, 13:14
I see a lot of people mentioning magnetising the spare bits. Does this not create more work for the sake of something that should not be faulty in the first place? It would be like buying a new car knowing that it has something wrong with it. Of which, you need to expend more time, money and effort to fix the thing...?

I am wondering whether or not you are just trolling now...

Magnetising is hardly a lot of effort and it opens up other avenues for your models. First you complain about all the extra bits that you can't use and when people mention ways you can still use them you complain about doing that too.

Also, define how GW kits are "faulty"? If you mean they are faulty because they now get released with EVERY option available to a unit in the codex (or in some cases, several units) then I don't want them to fix them and neither does anyone else I know!

Admit it, if GK came in a box of 10 with just 10 storm bolters, 1 psycannon and 10 swords, you'd still complain, but because they lack options...

Harwammer
02-12-2011, 14:28
I see a lot of people mentioning magnetising the spare bits. Does this not create more work for the sake of something that should not be faulty in the first place? It would be like buying a new car knowing that it has something wrong with it. Of which, you need to expend more time, money and effort to fix the thing...?

Do you complain about your car getting a spare wheel too?

ForgottenLore
02-12-2011, 17:19
Magnetising is hardly a lot of effort
Actually magnetizing is a pretty big pain. Well worth it, but it does require a whole raft of tools and skills that many modelers may not have and requires more work planning out how to apply the magnets and what magnets you need (which may involve waiting until you can get them) all before you ever get to the fun part of actually building the model. Magnetizing models is a wonderful trick, but it is hardly a small effort.

Theocracity
02-12-2011, 17:38
Actually magnetizing is a pretty big pain. Well worth it, but it does require a whole raft of tools and skills that many modelers may not have and requires more work planning out how to apply the magnets and what magnets you need (which may involve waiting until you can get them) all before you ever get to the fun part of actually building the model. Magnetizing models is a wonderful trick, but it is hardly a small effort.

You can say similar things about highlighting, basing, converting or scratch-building. All elements of this hobby that involve planning, work, skill and sometimes external components.

None of which are necessary, but all of them are aspects of hobby that put more value into your plastic dudemans.

Scorpion0x17
02-12-2011, 18:52
Do you complain about your car getting a spare wheel too?

I bought some magazines some time ago, and they had cassette tapes, and, later, CD's stuck to the front!

HOW DARE THEY!?

I didn't ask for these things! But I paid for them!!!

:rolleyes:

ForgottenLore
02-12-2011, 22:21
You can say similar things about highlighting, basing, converting or scratch-building. All elements of this hobby that involve planning, work, skill and sometimes external components.
And all of which are things that some people don't find worth the effort.

The question wasn't whether magnetizing was a good idea, or worth wile, it was whether there was a noticeable amount of extra effort involved, and there is.

Also, all those things you mentioned are things that are either fun in and of themselves or typically done AFTER the miniature has been built and (hopefully) painted, while magnetizing a miniature pretty much has to be done first.

TheMav80
02-12-2011, 22:35
I bought some magazines some time ago, and they had cassette tapes, and, later, CD's stuck to the front!

HOW DARE THEY!?

I didn't ask for these things! But I paid for them!!!

:rolleyes:

I get free stuff in my mailbox all the time. Doesn't mean I want it.

Take the Assault Marine box. It comes with ten extra chest pieces you do not need. I understand that you CAN use them for other things. I understand that GW would charge the same price whether that extra plastic was in there or not.

Doesn't mean I can't think it would be nicer if I could pay less for the box with just what I want in it. Hell, take that same plastic and make sure every option for the squads are actually in the box.

Theocracity
02-12-2011, 23:07
And all of which are things that some people don't find worth the effort.

The question wasn't whether magnetizing was a good idea, or worth wile, it was whether there was a noticeable amount of extra effort involved, and there is.

Also, all those things you mentioned are things that are either fun in and of themselves or typically done AFTER the miniature has been built and (hopefully) painted, while magnetizing a miniature pretty much has to be done first.

I happen to spend a lot of extra effort and time on planning / pinning my conversions, working on paint schemes, and finding the right tools for the job. That's part of the fun for me. I understand that some people don't enjoy everything in the hobby. I happen to loathe basing, and rarely do it - though because of that, my friends who do base have much better looking armies than I do.

Magnetizing is an extra step and takes extra planning. But if reducing extra bits is your goal, it's worth while - just as I find having interestingly orky conversions is worth the effort of planning out all my work beforehand.

Scorpion0x17
03-12-2011, 03:16
Doesn't mean I can't think it would be nicer if I could pay less for the box with just what I want in it. Hell, take that same plastic and make sure every option for the squads are actually in the box.

So you want fewer extra bits, but all the options?! :eyebrows:

Bookwrak
03-12-2011, 03:45
I happen to spend a lot of extra effort and time on planning / pinning my conversions, working on paint schemes, and finding the right tools for the job. That's part of the fun for me. I understand that some people don't enjoy everything in the hobby. I happen to loathe basing, and rarely do it - though because of that, my friends who do base have much better looking armies than I do.

Magnetizing is an extra step and takes extra planning. But if reducing extra bits is your goal, it's worth while - just as I find having interestingly orky conversions is worth the effort of planning out all my work beforehand.
The fact of the matter is that the whole magnetizing tangent is completely irrelevant to the conversation, unless the op's next avenue of complaint is, "I don't want enough parts to make one model serve two roles, I just want one!!!!!!"

Sinnertje
03-12-2011, 03:50
Thanks to extra bits, I was able to give my Chaos Lord a 2h axe. :)

TheMav80
03-12-2011, 07:15
So you want fewer extra bits, but all the options?! :eyebrows:

Fewer extraneous bits. I don't consider getting all the weapon options in a unit extraneous.

Extra legs with no torsos, or vice versa for example. Or when you get 20 heads for a ten man squad box, but it is just the same five heads repeated four times. I would rather the space on the sprue be taken up with actual options for the squad.

scarletsquig
03-12-2011, 07:44
We do definitely pay a premium.

Empire state troops - £15 for 10 models and 3 sprues.

Empire greatswords - £25 for 10 models and 6 sprues.

You do pay for those extra sprues, and kits are only made dual/triple use for the benefit of saving retail space rather than saving the customer money.

On the other hand, this approach is far better than not getting the stuff in plastic at all. If another new unit can be squeezed into an existing box by adding a few more bitz, then that's a hell of a lot better than not having it in plastic at all.

Take grey knight purifiers... yeah, they could have left them out and made the GK box a little cheaper, but you'd only end up paying £6/model for your bubbley finecast alternative... if you want to get a good variety of units in your army or have any desire to convert/customize them, then the all-plastic approach is far better.

Sprue design is also a factor... GW has been very good at not putting repeat sprues in it's boxes lately, each sprue has either 5 or 10 models on a standard 3-sprue layout. Their in-house plastic tooling (bought for £5m using money from the LotR bubble) has definitely made a difference and allowed them to splash out a lot more on plastics. You won't get lower prices anytime soon, but you will get your all-plastic army. With the amount of unit options being covered with each new release, I'd say it'll only be 5 years or so before every army is about 80-90% plastic.

Take a potential future sisters release. One kit, and you've got battle sisters, dominions, retributors and celestians sorted. Will no doubt be as expensive as heck compared to making seperate kits, but that is GW's current plan, getting as many things out in plastic as possible is far more important to them (and probably most of their customers considering how finecast turned out) than keeping the price point low.

Rick Blaine
03-12-2011, 11:36
Take the Assault Marine box. It comes with ten extra chest pieces you do not need. I understand that you CAN use them for other things. I understand that GW would charge the same price whether that extra plastic was in there or not.

Doesn't mean I can't think it would be nicer if I could pay less for the box with just what I want in it. Hell, take that same plastic and make sure every option for the squads are actually in the box.

:eyebrows:
Those extra chest pieces are an option for the squad. They're for Assault Squads without jump packs.

self biased
03-12-2011, 12:49
i guess people aren't interested in decorating their bases with spare bits.

LonelyPath
03-12-2011, 12:56
i guess people aren't interested in decorating their bases with spare bits.

I do that on occasion, but it depends on how the mood takes me. My Orks are more likely to have spare components decorate their bases though :)

MajorWesJanson
04-12-2011, 00:00
:eyebrows:
Those extra chest pieces are an option for the squad. They're for Assault Squads without jump packs.

They are actually from an older iteration of the assault marine box. It used to be the individual model frames and separate jump packs. Then the tactical and assault marine sprues were recut from individual frames to the current rows of torsos and legs. The Tac squad had the small sergeant sprue and the assault squad had individual jump packs. Finally, Tac squads got the larger accessory sprue and the assault squad got the jump pack sprue with the harness torsos and a few other parts.

TheMav80
04-12-2011, 17:52
:eyebrows:
Those extra chest pieces are an option for the squad. They're for Assault Squads without jump packs.

All you would need to do is just...not put jump packs on them.

You don't need an entirely new chest piece for that.

dex_911
05-12-2011, 01:12
All you would need to do is just...not put jump packs on them.

You don't need an entirely new chest piece for that.

Well, if we are being picky. The jump pack chest pieces have the straps that connect to the jump pack. For those who want a true representation of their marines, it would look odd...:rolleyes:

Beppo1234
05-12-2011, 01:27
Well, if we are being picky. The jump pack chest pieces have the straps that connect to the jump pack. For those who want a true representation of their marines, it would look odd...:rolleyes:

exactly, to emphasize that point, I like using the strap chest pieces on my landspeeder crews too

Pooky
05-12-2011, 03:14
exactly, to emphasize that point, I like using the strap chest pieces on my landspeeder crews too

Because, safety first! Always put on your seat belt!

Kalandros
05-12-2011, 03:51
My Command/Annihilation Barge has exactly 1 bit left over.... O:
I magnetized all the options so I can swap depending on the list I play.

Blademeister
05-12-2011, 04:46
I love it! I just buy bits off of ebay! $10-$20 on ebay and I can build a whole nother squad :D

Ebon
05-12-2011, 11:13
For the most part, I prefer the dual kits. Lots of spare parts to add to the bitz box. My only complaint is that I think a little too fixated on trying to make EVERY kit dual-purpose (in the same way as they seem to think EVERY WFB army must have giant monsters right now).

Pooky
06-12-2011, 01:35
For the most part, I prefer the dual kits. Lots of spare parts to add to the bitz box. My only complaint is that I think a little too fixated on trying to make EVERY kit dual-purpose

Where would you draw the line?

Beppo1234
06-12-2011, 08:30
Where would you draw the line?

I think it would be fair, if the standard troop box for any army came as just that, standard. Basically anything that falls into the basic troops slots of the FOC. Everything else can be extra bitty, and should be.

in your case, the GKs are the crazy specialized elites, and so even their so called standard troops are specialized. So you are kind of SOL with them.