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MarshalFaust
22-11-2011, 16:36
So I was browsing the apple ap store and came across this game called Battlenations where apparently they too have access to the imperium's finest battle tank.

http://battlenations.com/

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u14/DavHod42/russripoff.png

edit: oops wrong image tag :)

loveless
22-11-2011, 16:39
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u14/DavHod42/IMG_3374.jpg

An Iron Warriors Warsmith? That is a pretty blatant rip-off. Great graphics, though!

Pacorko
22-11-2011, 16:44
Err... an Iron Lords tech marine is the Imperium's finest battle tank?

I mean power-creep and all... not by a long shot!

Get it? :p

shelfunit.
22-11-2011, 17:15
Well... it's a tank, but certainly not a rip-off of anything, you could say it was this (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/tanks_and_world_war_one.htm) with an added gun turret. And as far as I am aware GW don't have any hold over WW1 tank design, and can't prevent someone adding things to a WW1 tank design.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
22-11-2011, 17:19
And as far as I am aware GW don't have any hold over WW1 tank design, and can't prevent someone adding things to a WW1 tank design.

This. It is fun to watch GW players realize that the game/miniature designers haven't just come up with their ideas out of thin air.

dangermouse425
22-11-2011, 17:38
You mean GW didn't invent tanks?!

Ozorik
22-11-2011, 17:46
Its also got what looks to be a Pz IV turret.

Obviously GW has complete ownership of any tank with exposed tracks.

Griefbringer
22-11-2011, 18:59
Obviously GW has complete ownership of any tank with exposed tracks.

Presumably GW legal department is at the moment sueing various militaries around the world for having fielded them in the past (as well as any military museums still having them in their collections).

Once they are done with those, they will probably go and sue Catholic church and Monty Python for the unauthorized usage of =I=.

paddyalexander
22-11-2011, 19:03
I remember a while ago somebody actualy posted box art work from an Airfix Mark 1 tank claiming that it was ripping off the Land Raider. So art work of a tank developed in 1916 and drawn in the 60's is a rip off of gwPLCs design from the 80's & 90's?

Seriously, unless the above tank is a direct copy of the leman russ battle tank & not a design inspired by tanks designed between 1916 & 1939 (like all of gwPLC & FW tank designs) then I don't think that the above company has anything to worry about. Can't think of the name of the tank but the leman russ is almost a direct copy of a french heavy tank developed in the 30's minus the sponsons.

Griefbringer
22-11-2011, 19:11
Can't think of the name of the tank but the leman russ is almost a direct copy of a french heavy tank developed in the 30's minus the sponsons.

Are you thinking of Char B1?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_B1

paddyalexander
22-11-2011, 19:23
Thats the one. If I could own one tank that was ever made that would be the one just based on looks. I can remember the first time I saw a photo of one in a Warlord annual in the mid 80's & it just stuck in my mind as what a tank should look like.

Lars Porsenna
22-11-2011, 19:28
The turret does not look like a PzIV turret. If anything, the inspiration for that thing is Indiana Jones III: a Mk IV retrofitted with a British cruiser tank turret.

Damon.

Ozorik
22-11-2011, 21:15
It does look like a Pz IV turret (I would say a F2). Certainly not an exact copy but certainly reminiscent of one, it doesn't remind me of a cruiser turret at all.

I would prefer Leman Russ to be based on the T35, it already looks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:T35_7.jpg) like it should be standard IG issue.

MarcoSkoll
22-11-2011, 22:06
There's little this has in common with a Russ that other WWI, inter-war and WWII tanks don't also share.

It's got a blockier top turret than normal, but it still follows the pattern of its tracks being roughly in a paralellogram (which was common on earlier tank designs, unlike the odder pentagonal shape of a Russ' tracks), the back end is a different shape, hasn't got the raised top armour...

I'd have to make fewer changes to the design of the British Mark I to get it to look like that than I would have to a Russ. Ergo, Mark I tank rip-off. Like every other tank in existence.

Havock
22-11-2011, 22:36
I would prefer Leman Russ to be based on the T35, it already looks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:T35_7.jpg) like it should be standard IG issue.

And I would prefer a leman russ to look like something with sloped armor, proper suspension, the likes :)

golembane
22-11-2011, 22:57
Strangely enough, just like how I am with cars, I don't really care for older tank designs. I do love me some Merkava (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava) however. Everything about that single tank is what I always envisioned tanks looking like since I was a little kid. Fast, powerful, agile, and sharp looking to boot.

I think that is one reason I never really got into IG, since they do tend to use more of a 'classic' tank design. Never understood from a design point of view why the various Russ tanks would go out of their way to increase their footprint on the field in the future rather then having a smaller footprint with same fire power.

New Cult King
22-11-2011, 23:03
I was just about to post "Loltank" but then I looked more closely at the back of the tank in that pic. Combined with the Imperial Army thing, it does look like they've drawn some hefty inspiration from GW.

Ozorik
22-11-2011, 23:23
And I would prefer a leman russ to look like something with sloped armor, proper suspension, the likes :)

You will be asking for the IG to actually make use of cover next......

Havock
22-11-2011, 23:28
You will be asking for the IG to actually make use of cover next......

Yes, and integrated air support and off-table artillery support.

Additionally, lower profiles and bigger turrets so they can actually aim the damn thing. Fairly sure the reason for a tank to miss another tank on a distance that amounts to the width of a football field is because is because they have to shoot with a stringy wire.

FabricatorGeneralMike
23-11-2011, 00:03
Yes, and integrated air support and off-table artillery support.

Additionally, lower profiles and bigger turrets so they can actually aim the damn thing. Fairly sure the reason for a tank to miss another tank on a distance that amounts to the width of a football field is because is because they have to shoot with a stringy wire.


Boy have I got a game for you, it's called Tomorrow's War by Ambush Alley Games, you can do all those things plus use your GW models. Win win eh? check them out it's a stonkin game. =o] [/shamless plug]

I don't really care for the early tank marks personally. Give me some 'nam and 1980's cold war tanks any day of the week. Especially Soviet tanks, I guess there is just something about the Red hored comming over the German plains in massed armoured formations...with tatical nukes for lolz.

Havock
23-11-2011, 01:32
What are their payment options?

AndrewGPaul
23-11-2011, 07:30
What for, Tomorrow's War? Surely that depends who you buy the book from.

Amazon sell it, for a start.

Night Bearer
24-11-2011, 02:56
ha, I thought someone else had finally discovered Skysmash 1918's Land Russ!

(or would that be 'Leman Raider'?)

http://itunes.apple.com/au/app/skysmash-1918/id332505217?mt=8

New Cult King
24-11-2011, 03:26
Haha yeah I saw that one in Skysmash. I had a chuckle just before blowing it up.

WLBjork
27-11-2011, 20:38
For that matter, wasn't there a turreted MkIV in Raiders of the Lost Ark?

theshoveller
29-11-2011, 12:37
Seriously, unless the above tank is a direct copy of the leman russ battle tank & not a design inspired by tanks designed between 1916 & 1939 (like all of gwPLC & FW tank designs) then I don't think that the above company has anything to worry about.
To be fair, 40k APC designs are copied from later vehicles. The Rhino is something akin to an M113 or Spartan. The Chimera is clearly a BMP.

KommissarAlexei
02-12-2011, 03:30
Well... it's a tank, but certainly not a rip-off of anything, you could say it was this (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/tanks_and_world_war_one.htm) with an added gun turret. And as far as I am aware GW don't have any hold over WW1 tank design, and can't prevent someone adding things to a WW1 tank design.


apart from a couple almost-WW1 tanks on forgeworld, gw doesnt have anything WW1

Ben
03-12-2011, 14:09
*cough* Land Raider is clearly inspired by the Mark IV/V WW1 tank.

shelfunit.
03-12-2011, 14:29
apart from a couple almost-WW1 tanks on forgeworld, gw doesnt have anything WW1

Every single tracked Imperial vehicle is inspired to a greater or lesser extent by real world tanks/APCs. To claim otherwise is, well, wrong.

infinite_array
03-12-2011, 23:56
apart from a couple almost-WW1 tanks on forgeworld, gw doesnt have anything WW1

Pfffft hahaha! Come on - someone at GW is a huge WWI enthusiast.

Nautyboy
04-12-2011, 02:28
Pfffft hahaha! Come on - someone at GW is a huge WWI enthusiast.

Indeed, the whole doctrine of the IG might as well have come out of Field Marshall Haig's diaries.

carlisimo
04-12-2011, 06:00
There's little this has in common with a Russ that other WWI, inter-war and WWII tanks don't also share.

Sure, the Leman Russ has taken elements from a number of different real-life tanks... but this one takes those exact same elements! I don't think it could possibly be a coincidence.

Ozorik
04-12-2011, 07:43
Sure, the Leman Russ has taken elements from a number of different real-life tanks... but this one takes those exact same elements! I don't think it could possibly be a coincidence.

And? 'Ripping off' a 'rip off' doesn't seem particularly earth shattering.

Freakiq
04-12-2011, 08:30
And? 'Ripping off' a 'rip off' doesn't seem particularly earth shattering.

Ripping off history and ripping off a copyrighted design are two different things.

Who owns the copyright for the British Mark IV for example?

Shadey
04-12-2011, 09:20
The Russ is of course based on real world tanks like the MKIV, why wouldn't it be?

But at the same time, the tank in battlenations has most of the same details, profile and proportions as the Russ. The exception being the proportions of the sponson, the main gun and the top of the engine. It even has the front lascannon in the same spot. The proportions don't match the MKIV at all, nor the Char. They match the russ almost perfectly.

Seriously, people calling the russ itself a 'rip off' because it shares some mechanical similarities with a real world tank? That's like calling the Space Marine bike a rip off of real world bikes because it has two wheels.

Proportions of the Russ are still unique no matter how much it may or may not be inspired by this or that real world tank. Proportions and profile which have clearly been emulated in battlenations.

It isn't subjective, it is there in black and white, that is a Russ.

Ozorik
04-12-2011, 09:41
Ripping off history and ripping off a copyrighted design are two different things.

Who owns the copyright for the British Mark IV for example?

I would love to see GW try to enforce a copyright claim, I think we can all guess how well that would go.

The MKIV copyright has probably expired but it still exists it would be held by the crown.

Shadey
04-12-2011, 10:00
Next thing you know they will be claiming piles of skulls as their own...

6mmhero
04-12-2011, 11:13
Yeah that tank does look an aweful lot like a Russ, even the barrel/fuel tank on the engine deck looks similar.

I am not saying that GW should go after them etc just that it looks very similar. Enough to make me chuckle at least.

GW tank's are certainly inspired by real life tanks, but the design then goes beyond that to the point of having a vehicle that looks like a step backwards lol.

frozenwastes
04-12-2011, 14:49
People have it in their heads that creativity is only about coming up with something completely new when the vast majority of the creative work done on the planet is taking existing ideas and putting a new interpretation on them. We shouldn't fault GW for taking elements from historical tanks and doing their own interpretation. Neither should be consider their use of other people's designs so sacrosanct that we then term anything that uses the same elements to be a ripoff.

Hena
05-12-2011, 14:29
apart from a couple almost-WW1 tanks on forgeworld, gw doesnt have anything WW1
By and large (exception from Land Raider / Leman Russ) this is correct. Most of them are inspired from WWII :).

weeble1000
05-12-2011, 18:50
People have it in their heads that creativity is only about coming up with something completely new when the vast majority of the creative work done on the planet is taking existing ideas and putting a new interpretation on them. We shouldn't fault GW for taking elements from historical tanks and doing their own interpretation. Neither should be consider their use of other people's designs so sacrosanct that we then term anything that uses the same elements to be a ripoff.

Precisely. Games Workshop is well entitled to be credited for its creativity, but only insofar as it is the credit given to any author. Were the tanks in that game inspired by the Leman Russ, probably, but inspired by is keenly different than copied from.

The Leman Russ is a cool tank (I think so at any rate). It was most probably inspired largely by WWI tanks, but it is creative and unique all the same. I don't think it is wrong for others to enjoy the Leman Russ design and be inspired by it to create their own unique tank designs.

Furthermore, in terms of the law, protection for a work that draws heavily from extant public domain sources will naturally be thin, as authors of any work are only afforded protection for that which is uniquely creative in their works. That which is unique about the Leman Russ tank design is a tiny fraction of the entire context of the work. Given this, copying is likely to only be established in cases of exact or near exact reproduction.

The tank in the game is very similar to a Leaman Russ for sure, but much of that similarity is owed to that which is not protectible in the Leman Russ design. Exposed tracks, not protectible. Armored hull, not protectible. Hull mounted weapon, not protectible. Sponson mounted weapons, not protectible. Taken in the entire conext of the Leman Russ work, those elements combine to create something that is unique. But to determine that another work is a copy, not only must that which makes those elements unique in the Leman Russ work be copied, but also the unique combination of those elements. Hence you have in the Leman Russ tank design a very thin copyright.

One must not, in the US, specifically look for differences between two works. Indeed, one must specifically avoid simply identifying differences. However, when a copyright is as thin as the Leman Russ tank design, so little is actually protectible that a determination of substantial similarity virtually amounts to identifying differences.

When one compares the works side by side, it seems to me that the most strikingly similar thing about both designs is the shape of the tracks. The hull bears a certain similarity, but that which makes those aspects of the tanks artistically unique is, I think, not terribly similar. So too, with the sponsons, the turret, and the armaments of the vehicles. When all is said and done, what I think you have are two tanks with similarly-shaped (though not exactly the same) tracks, a main turret, sponsons, and a forward-facing weapon mounted to the hull.

Now; as none of those elements are themselves unique, outside of the unique particularities of their expressions (which are unarguably not the same between the two works), and an assemblage of those elements in a tank is also not unique (and firmly ensconced in the public domain); it would be fair to say, in my opinion, that the two works are not substantially similar. This is because that which makes the tanks similar is, at best, limited largely to unprotectible public domain elements. Thus one should not consider the Battle Nation tank to be a copy of the Leman Russ Battle Tank.

Sai-Lauren
06-12-2011, 16:41
Well... it's a tank, but certainly not a rip-off of anything, you could say it was this (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/tanks_and_world_war_one.htm) with an added gun turret. And as far as I am aware GW don't have any hold over WW1 tank design, and can't prevent someone adding things to a WW1 tank design.
Nope, the Malcador and Macharius are the closest to the WW1 era designs.

If anything, the Leman Russ is closer to the Char B1, as already mentioned, or the M3 Lee/Grant.



Ripping off history and ripping off a copyrighted design are two different things.

Who owns the copyright for the British Mark IV for example?

Assuming it's not become public domain, then probably the Ministry of Defence, as the designer is listed (in wikipedia) as Major Gordon Wilson. If not them, then the current owner of the original manufacturers - probably BAe Systems.