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vorthrax
23-11-2011, 13:37
Is the Cauldron of Blood deployed with Characters or Warmachines?

I had been deploying with characters as that is what the Dark Elf Army Book entry says to do. Now I am questioning if that is correct because the Dark Elf FAQ lists the Cauldron as, "Unit Type: Warmachine" and does not mention or reference deployment at all. On the other hand, the Death Hag is still a character and the Cauldron is an add-on to that character.

So what do you all think?

theunwantedbeing
23-11-2011, 13:38
The hag is part of it, as she's a character she is deployed along with all the other characters.

Frosty_TK
23-11-2011, 13:41
As a character. Otherwise all those other "mounts" like ridden chariots, W-Altars and the tomb kings' arc of the covenant (allright, allright, I know it's called differently), would have to be deployed as troops / warmachine as well.

Capt._Jaelinek
23-11-2011, 15:07
I disagree. The Death Hag loses her character status, cannot leave the unit, cannot be targeted and cannot be challenged. The unit type is war machine and must be deployed as such. Just my humble opinion.

vorthrax
23-11-2011, 16:15
I disagree. The Death Hag loses her character status, cannot leave the unit, cannot be targeted and cannot be challenged. The unit type is war machine and must be deployed as such. Just my humble opinion.Concerning the bolded points, I don't remember this being the case and can't find anything in the rulebook to support them. Anyone have any insight?

EDIT: The challenges part is indeed covered in the FAQ. Characters that are part of a war amchine crew cannot issue or accept challenges.

tmarichards
23-11-2011, 16:19
It get's deployed with characters. Remember, though, that as a war machine it treats any terrain other than open ground or hills as impassable.

T10
23-11-2011, 16:26
The Death Hag does not lose her character status as far as I can tell. Nothing of this is mentioned in the Dark Elf FAQ.

She becomes a part of the cauldron of blood model, which has the warmachine troop type, true, but changing troop type does not in itself mean a loss of character status. Bear in mind that most characters are infantry models, and become cavalry models if they are mounted on a warbeast such as a warhorse. It would be a shame if these no longer counted as characters.

It's hard to say where the character status would actually come into play in this case. Presumably an enemy character with the Sword of Anti-Heroes engaging the Cauldron of Blood will get the +1 bonuses for the Death Hag.

Joeman169
24-11-2011, 01:50
I used to deply as a Character, but after many discussions with our group, I have settled on deployment as a war machine as that is the troop type. It is not a Charcter on a mount it's troop type is war machine . I don't see either way as being wrong though.

Capt._Jaelinek
24-11-2011, 02:50
Perhaps I went too far in claiming the Death Hag loses character status. As she can't leave the unit, declare challenges or be specifically targeted (no Hockland rifles or Death Magic!), she ceases to be a character per se. I think the sword of anti-heroes is an interesting weapon that would still consider her as a character though, but she could not be specifically targeted.

Deployment is just my opinion as the unit type is warmachine and she cannot be separated from the crew, but as the Cauldron is a character upgrade I think that is a valid argument. Highly doubt there is any FAQ on this. Probably best to discuss with your opponent before hand or tourney judge.

sulla
24-11-2011, 19:02
Character and war machine are not exclusive. She deploys as a character.

T10
24-11-2011, 19:45
Well, if you were asked to point out all your war machines, then the cauldron would be counted among them. So if you are required to deploy all your war machines, then the cauldron would still count as a war machine, wouldn't it.

Still, if you have issues with this, deal with your opponent and roll for it if neither of you can be persuaded. :)

AMWOOD co
25-11-2011, 02:58
It's hard to say where the character status would actually come into play in this case. Presumably an enemy character with the Sword of Anti-Heroes engaging the Cauldron of Blood will get the +1 bonuses for the Death Hag.

Whether Dark Elves will get to use these bonuses is one thing (they could with the Wizarding Hat I suppose), but there are two spells in the Lore of Beasts that specifically target characters, and so these would affect a Hag with a Cauldron.

Capt._Jaelinek
25-11-2011, 16:49
Whether Dark Elves will get to use these bonuses is one thing (they could with the Wizarding Hat I suppose), but there are two spells in the Lore of Beasts that specifically target characters, and so these would affect a Hag with a Cauldron.

Which 2 spells? Do they target characters or models? Don't have BRB handy.

Also Hags can't take magic items. Only blessings from DE book.

AMWOOD co
26-11-2011, 04:38
Which 2 spells? Do they target characters or models? Don't have BRB handy.

Characters. They are Pann's Impenetrable Pelt (spell 2) and The Savage Beast of Horros (spell 5) and can affect one or every friendly character within 12".

Technically, the Shadow Lore Affinity would also count, but there are no characters that cast spells that are of type Warmachine, so it's a moot point.

Arijharn
29-11-2011, 06:27
Perhaps I went too far in claiming the Death Hag loses character status. As she can't leave the unit, declare challenges or be specifically targeted (no Hockland rifles or Death Magic!).

That doesn't seem to be true; because what's the point of Death Magic or sniper rifles if they can't do their intended role?

Characters never lose their character status, and that's borderline op in some situations since Kairos can shapeshift into something like a Mountain Chimera and still have his 3+ ward save...

Capt._Jaelinek
29-11-2011, 21:12
That doesn't seem to be true; because what's the point of Death Magic or sniper rifles if they can't do their intended role?

Characters never lose their character status, and that's borderline op in some situations since Kairos can shapeshift into something like a Mountain Chimera and still have his 3+ ward save...
As the FAQ is written you can't harm the character until you kill the other attendants. So RAW you can't snipe the character out of the unit. Check the DE FAQ for CoB rules. They are really weird.

daladzor
30-11-2011, 09:07
Having just flicked through the FAQ, the cauldron wont protect the character against any attack that targets a specific model, such as hochland long rifles

The CoB rules state remove an attendant for first wound inflicted on the cauldron, remove the other attendant for second wound inflicted and the death hag for the 4th wound.

Since some spells and abilities allow you to target the character herself, i'd say they could snipe her out.


As for the deployment, it is still a character, so I'd deploy her with other characters

Capt._Jaelinek
30-11-2011, 14:06
Having just flicked through the FAQ, the cauldron wont protect the character against any attack that targets a specific model, such as hochland long rifles

The CoB rules state remove an attendant for first wound inflicted on the cauldron, remove the other attendant for second wound inflicted and the death hag for the 4th wound.

Since some spells and abilities allow you to target the character herself, i'd say they could snipe her out.


As for the deployment, it is still a character, so I'd deploy her with other characters

As the unit type is warmachine the Hags are crew, just like any other war machine. They are just wound markers at this point per the BRB and cannot specifically be targeted. For all intents and purposes they are counters not models. This is why they cannot be targeted. If the rule says you can snipe a 'model' then she cannot be targeted. If it says you can target a 'character' then I would consider what context the rule is working. For example, she doesn't really have a base per se and can't be challenged.

I really think GW messed up the rules on this. The Cauldron should be a unique unit type with a better explanation of rules, but this is what we got.

daladzor
30-11-2011, 15:02
As for the hochland long rifles, they may still pick her out due to the wording

" the shooter may pick any target he can see (including characteers champions a war machines crew ect ect "

However, I'm unsure on death magic ect, the hochland long rifle is only one example that actually allows this.
Yeah, i'll definately agree on that part, that it should be listed as a unique unit but until the dark elves are redone its unlikely to occur

vorthrax
30-11-2011, 18:38
As for the hochland long rifles, they may still pick her out due to the wording

" the shooter may pick any target he can see (including characteers champions a war machines crew ect ect "The line you quoted will actually mean that Hochland Long Rifles and such will NOT be able to pick out the Death Hag because she and the attendants cannot, by any game terms, "be seen." Maybe this is covered in the Sniper special rule which replaces the Hochland Long Rifle's Scientific Precision special rule? Or is your quote from the Sniper special rule? I don't have my BRB with me today, so I can't check myself.

theunwantedbeing
30-11-2011, 19:07
Anything with the sniper rule cannot pick her out as she is not a "model" able to be picked out. She is simply part of the Cauldren of Blood and as a result, isn't able to be picked out seperately like a character on a dragon or in a unit would be.

The Hochland Long Rifle now just has the Sniper special rule. So it too cannot target the Hag (or the attendants) separately.

The Anvil of Doom is in the same boat as the Cauldren of Blood.

daladzor
30-11-2011, 20:06
Vorthrax my quote was from the hochland long rifles rule, as per the empire army book,
however, as theunwantedbeing states
that rule has now been replaced in the Empire FAQ and cannot target the Hag seperately.

PeG
01-12-2011, 11:04
BRB states that crew are only wound markers and dont have any other purposes. If the Hag becomes a wound marker which means that she cant be seen or targeted I would argue that she will also not make the cauldron to be placed as a character. Either she is a character or not you cant have it both ways.

If she remains a character this is an exception to the crew rule (since she is actually soemthing more then a wound marker) and then she can be targeted etc or she is not a character and then the cauldron is set up like any other warmachine.

Any of these options work for me but until something else is clear from a FAQ I would insist on that an opponent choses one of these options. For me the warmachine options seems to make the most sense.

theunwantedbeing
01-12-2011, 11:11
Either she is a character or not you cant have it both ways.

For me the warmachine options seems to make the most sense.

So...she then doesn't come from the character allowance?

vorthrax
01-12-2011, 14:18
BRB states that crew are only wound markers and dont have any other purposes. If the Hag becomes a wound marker which means that she cant be seen or targeted I would argue that she will also not make the cauldron to be placed as a character. Either she is a character or not you cant have it both ways.

If she remains a character this is an exception to the crew rule (since she is actually soemthing more then a wound marker) and then she can be targeted etc or she is not a character and then the cauldron is set up like any other warmachine.These are very strong points and are why I ask the question in the first place. To me, it is really debateable how to deploy the Cauldron. I have always deployed with characters. My regular gaming group has unanimously agreed that deploying with characters is correct, so that's what I'll continue to do. I'm still not 100% convinced, but then you have the following:


So...she then doesn't come from the character allowance?In the face of ambiguity, this is probably the best and simplest argument (in my opinion) to deploy with characters.

Capt._Jaelinek
02-12-2011, 17:42
Despite the cauldron being warmachine troop type it definitely comes from the hero category. I tend to agree with placing with characters.

Due to the wording of the DE FAQ wounds go to the Hags first then the Death Hag is removed after 2 more wounds. So no targeting is possible to the models. However, if there is a special ability that affects 'character' specifically then I think this gets more fuzzy. The sword of anti-heroes would certainly count the Deathag as a character for it's abilities as would warrior bane in my opinion. But lore of death could not specifically target her, it would be the unit as it's treated as a single model.

Clear as mud?!

daladzor
02-12-2011, 18:28
Yeah, it should be deployed with characters
my reasoning,
You purchase the cauldron as an upgrade option for the Death Hag
Since the Death Hag is a character the entire model is deployed with characters.

AMWOOD co
02-12-2011, 20:30
I'm going to bring this up on a semi-related note: how does everyone deal with units that have characters that MUST be deployed with them. Immediately coming to mind are Gitilla and his Howlerz and Grimgor and Da Immortalz. Do you deploy these as a unit (any time except the end) or as a character (the end)?

belgarath97
06-12-2011, 17:39
I disagree. The Death Hag loses her character status, cannot leave the unit, cannot be targeted and cannot be challenged. The unit type is war machine and must be deployed as such. Just my humble opinion.

I think there is something to this argument. But in the end, army books override the BRB, so if it says to deploy like a character...then deploy like a character.

belgarath97
06-12-2011, 17:40
I'm going to bring this up on a semi-related note: how does everyone deal with units that have characters that MUST be deployed with them. Immediately coming to mind are Gitilla and his Howlerz and Grimgor and Da Immortalz. Do you deploy these as a unit (any time except the end) or as a character (the end)?

Both. I would deploy the unit, and then the character in the unit when it was time to deploy characters. I believe with both the bonuses to the unit are included in the cost of the character. So if I have 2 units of Goblin Wolf Riders, I would deploy both saying, "Goblin Wolf Riders..." and any options. Then deploy Gitilla saying "Gitilla is joing this unit making them Howlerz". I would then enlighten my opponent to the changes said upgrade brings.

BEEGfrog
07-12-2011, 01:58
A character is not a unit type. It is an attribute of a model that attracts a set of additional rules. While the rules of the model's unit type normally apply they may be amended or added to by general character rules or army book rules.

All three sets of rules apply unless specifically overturned by one of them. Where rules conflict I would say that the most general unit type rules are trumped by the more specialised character rules and both give way to specific army book rules.

Therefore models with the character attribute deploy with characters unless a specific army book rule says they deploy in some other way.

AMWOOD co
07-12-2011, 02:42
Both. I would deploy the unit, and then the character in the unit when it was time to deploy characters. I believe with both the bonuses to the unit are included in the cost of the character. So if I have 2 units of Goblin Wolf Riders, I would deploy both saying, "Goblin Wolf Riders..." and any options. Then deploy Gitilla saying "Gitilla is joing this unit making them Howlerz". I would then enlighten my opponent to the changes said upgrade brings.

I'm not sure this is an option.

Reading the relevant sections for Gitilla, Grimgor, and Snagla it seems that which unit is the relevant unit must be decided on your roster (their stats have changed and/or they have additional special rules). While the cost of points is paid for by the character, it doesn't change that the unit itself has changed and will keep these changes should the character die (without Grimgor, Da Immortulz are still WS 5 and have Hatred).

Also, consider Snagla and Wulfrik (Warriors of Chaos). These characters give their unit special deployment rules, and so the unit MUST be decided before deploying them on the table. As similar wording is used for Gitilla and Grimgor, it seems that they to must be decided beforehand.

Finally, we have the wording that these characters "must set up with this unit and may not leave it." (Orcs and Goblins pp 69-71, relevant paragraphs). This, to me, implies that when the unit deploys, the character deploys.

If you think I am giving a false dilema, please explain.

N1AK
07-12-2011, 11:41
I'm pretty certain Amwood is correct about 'special units' linked to characters. When you buy Grimgor and Da Immortalz then Immortalz are not a standard Black Orc unit. You would have to note on the roster, and make clear to your opponent when deploying that unit that they are a special unit.

This is obviously different to when adding a character to a unit adds a benefit, but the unit itself is a vanilla army book unit (for example adding a Dwarf Lord to a Hammerer unit).

belgarath97
08-12-2011, 05:23
BRB states that crew are only wound markers and dont have any other purposes. If the Hag becomes a wound marker which means that she cant be seen or targeted I would argue that she will also not make the cauldron to be placed as a character. Either she is a character or not you cant have it both ways.

If she remains a character this is an exception to the crew rule (since she is actually soemthing more then a wound marker) and then she can be targeted etc or she is not a character and then the cauldron is set up like any other warmachine.

Any of these options work for me but until something else is clear from a FAQ I would insist on that an opponent choses one of these options. For me the warmachine options seems to make the most sense.

Does her points come out of the 25% for heroes or lords? If so then she's a character by definition.