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View Full Version : Crazy question about Tyranids VS another "consuming" race



Chaos Warlord
25-11-2011, 00:06
Ok, so ive always been a fan of The thing, the original movie from the 70's
but seeing the 2011 version got me thinking, here there are some intresting new facts, like instant mutation when coming in contact with uncontaminated organic material, this makes it come down to - if you touch it, you will be subject to mutation and eventually transformation.
try and push it away with your hands, and your hands will have to touch it, making your hands subject to mutation from the "thing" and also stick to its body as it absorbs your biological material, your own fingertips becoming a part of its body.. forcing you to become fixed with it while it can continue to absorb/consume you.

also as it comes down to a cellular level of mutation, even the smallest "part" of the "thing" can potentially contaminate and eventually consume/transform larger beings many times its own size - perhaps even its blood can have this effect, but on a slower level, thinking of the fact that the cells never ceased to live and continued to replicate and absorb/transform uncontaminated cells, even though the body had died.

so.. would the "thing" be able to destroy/contaminate/consume larger quantities of the Tyranid race? certainly splinter fleets and some hive fleets could be at great risk.

Tyranid organisms engage in close combat, sometimes getting stuck in a motion of combat as uncontaminated organic material gets stuck with the fast mutating skin/flesh of the thing, eventually consuming the creature that tried to attack it. and even if they slay the "things" the blood could potentially contaminate them, and on another scale if they eat chunks of it, it will continue to mutate and transform from inside the Tyranids body.
and if it eventually made it to the digestion pools.. would the cells themselves be destroyed? or is there a possibility that those very cells could continue to contaminate, and then absorbed into the hiveships themseveles eventually take over completly, since it is all organisms in its own right.

would this be the ultimate doom of the Tyranid race?
the race that is said to be the ultimate doom of every other race in the galaxy?

intresting thought, please share your opinion, thoughts and reason behind them :cool:

Threeshades
25-11-2011, 00:27
I think the hive mind would finally have a good reason to spawn pyrovores and then proceed to exclusively fight it with acid, bioplasma and warpblast. Maybe try to absorb its burnt remains in an isolated experiment, and if that works absorb all of it, if not, burn the experiment and get outta there.

Charistoph
25-11-2011, 00:33
No, much like the Zerg, it would just be incorporated into the fleet's biomass and might even be included in the Ripper's makeup.

Threeshades
25-11-2011, 00:38
No, much like the Zerg, it would just be incorporated into the fleet's biomass and might even be included in the Ripper's makeup.

The thing with the Thing is that it consumes and assimilates biomatter upon touch, while tyranids have to digest it first, so if the nids tried to absorb it, they would rather become the Thing than make the thing become them. That'S why as I stated they probably would burn it first and ask questions (of assimilation) later.

Chaos Warlord
25-11-2011, 01:52
Agreed Threeshades, you might be right, it does seem the most realistic when dealing with it, also thanks for pointing out to Charistoph the thing about the thing :D seems he didnt read my first post

allthough only synapse creatures can come to that conclution, and if a hive tyrant were to be absorbed.... maby it could potentially wreck more havoc, being in control of almost all other creatures on the field of battle.. sending them to their eventual absorbation? even feeding wrong information to the hive mind?

or would the hive mind notice this?

"yaaaarghhh. pain.

-pause-

everything is fine."

does the hive mind think as us? would a random act on a synapse creature like a hive tyrant be caught in the attention of the hive mind as odd.. therefore concluding that all might not be right with this synapse creature.. it might be sending its psychic thoughts as it should (perhaps on reflex) but something seems odd.

kane40k
25-11-2011, 02:35
i guess its who can out evolve who :)

Charistoph
25-11-2011, 05:37
i guess its who can out evolve who :)

This was pretty much my point. One is guided almost completely on instinct, while the other is instinct guided by malicious intent.

While we've seen the Thing evolve in real time, we have also seen the Tyranids create counters to technology almost as quickly.

Of course, who knows, it may just be that they choose to join with one another and just get the job done. Personally, that's what I believe would happen here.

Warlord Gnashgrod
25-11-2011, 09:11
And which one is guided by instinct?

Both the Thing and the Tyrannids/Have Mind are intelligent. They've both proven this. The Tyrannids/Hive Mind just doesn't think the way we do, or see things the way we do. They have no interest in comunicating with us, just consuming us. the same is true of The Thing.

I would think the Thing has the upper hand, unless the Nids can produce some sort of immune system strategy to fight off the Thing. With the Nids, it is possible. But they'd need to do it quickly.

Corvus Corone
25-11-2011, 09:31
We're talking about tyranids here; the most adaptive organiism in the galaxy.

I think if the 'the thing' became any kind of actual nuisance, the hivemind would immediately deploy anti-bodies or some other biological solution (microscopic tyranid cells that combat the thing on that level, if you like).

Imagine a world entirely dominated by the thing. The tyranids attack, seeding the world with venomthropes adapted to diffuse a tyranid counter agent, which causes the thing to wither and die or bloom and become inert for absorption.

Chaos Warlord
25-11-2011, 12:05
very intresting teory regarding antibodies and the likes.. but in order to come to the conclution on how to best deal with this nuisance, the thing would need to be absorbed.. after all, this is how the tyranids come to that conclution. they absorb and leard. thus allowing it to spread to every part of the hive ship, potentially allowing themselves to be absorbed, and in turn other hive ships, also being an imitating organism even on a cellular level, the cells themselves whould perhaps not be or look any different from the tyranids themseves (thinking of the fact that it would first be subject to tyranid organisms, that would inevitably have been absorbed, thus making the cells look like tyranid cells allready.

keep the thoughts and teories streaming! its an intresting subject :D

Corvus Corone
25-11-2011, 12:40
very intresting teory regarding antibodies and the likes.. but in order to come to the conclution on how to best deal with this nuisance, the thing would need to be absorbed.. after all, this is how the tyranids come to that conclution. they absorb and leard. thus allowing it to spread to every part of the hive ship, potentially allowing themselves to be absorbed, and in turn other hive ships, also being an imitating organism even on a cellular level, the cells themselves whould perhaps not be or look any different from the tyranids themseves (thinking of the fact that it would first be subject to tyranid organisms, that would inevitably have been absorbed, thus making the cells look like tyranid cells allready.

keep the thoughts and teories streaming! its an intresting subject :D

The Hive Mind is no dumb beast. Even a Hive Tyrant is smart enough to figure out what would be going on if the 'the thing' infected a whole hive ship.

The tyranids get exposed to the microfauna (the collection of bacteria, fungi and other microscopic life) and viruses of countless worlds. They're the masters of that field. They even manipulate other organisms in many biological ways, influencing the entire ecology of a planet in the weeks before they arrive. This is a race that can achieve through biology what other species need entire systems worth of manufacturing and scientific facilities to accomplish, and in a fraction of the time.

I'd say it would be a simple matter for the hive mind to identify and analyse 'the thing' and counter it.

Finally, I don't think assimilating 'the thing' would be an obstacle. Tyranids must have dealt with countless biological threats over the milenia. The hive mind would find a way; it can create any tool for the task. It could create biologically sealed monstrosities (coated entirely in waxy cutanium and overlapping sterile plates) to fight/ digest 'the thing', or simply vomit digestive acids onto 'the thing' from atmospheric organisms/ hive ships.

Given it's mastery of biology (and you have to concede that the tyranids are the masters of biology) the Hive Mind might even create, with a wry smile on it's faceless void, a tyranid micro-organism that can infiltrate 'the thing''s biomass and subvert it. How would 'the thing' like a taste of it's own medicine? =)

Korraz
25-11-2011, 12:41
Biotitan spits large quantity of digestive acids.
Problem solved. Proceed to absorb.

Rule 1# for crossovers: No matter what you crossover 40k with, the 40k thing is always, always, ALWAYS stronger, because of Grimdarks.

Chaos Warlord
25-11-2011, 13:53
yes, but digestive acids dont break down the individual cells.. the cells remain infected - procede to absorb and your hive ship becomes infected, eventually absorbed itself.

also to procede to attack the "thing" you will need to locate it. if it imitates another tyranid organism, even a synapse creature, its not entirely unrealistic to say that it could go unnoticed and eventually infect more organisms in the swarm

Rule 2# no matter how grimdark, you cannot escape the eventual doom of the imitator cells from the thing.

Korraz
25-11-2011, 14:00
The Tyranid Digestive Acids break you down on atomic level. Tyranids can literally consume anything. Biomass is just preferrable, consuming most nonbiological matter results in a net loss.
If he Hivemind really wants to, it'll just send a virus or Protozoa to deal with the cells.
You can't outfight Grimdark.

Chaos Warlord
25-11-2011, 16:06
atomic level? refrence or it didnt happen ;)

also no matter how stong an acid is, I am fairly sure it never reaches an atomic level, and digestive acids are certainly among those, even if they would be twenty times stronger than we know it to be today. whereas some amino-acids and single cells for example would not break down into this gruelling compound, it still need to be organic material when it is absorbed, when digesting it to an atomic level, the very ogranic material itself ceases to exist, this would make it impossible to absorb when looking at certain minerals and vitamins, amino-acids and the like, those very amino acids and minerals and vitamins that are nessesary for life to exist (sure Tyranids might not be bound to life as we know it, but we are talking about the very essence of life itself) since they too would be broken down into something else.. right?

Corvus Corone
25-11-2011, 16:52
atomic level? refrence or it didnt happen ;)

also no matter how stong an acid is, I am fairly sure it never reaches an atomic level, and digestive acids are certainly among those, even if they would be twenty times stronger than we know it to be today. whereas some amino-acids and single cells for example would not break down into this gruelling compound, it still need to be organic material when it is absorbed, when digesting it to an atomic level, the very ogranic material itself ceases to exist, this would make it impossible to absorb when looking at certain minerals and vitamins, amino-acids and the like, those very amino acids and minerals and vitamins that are nessesary for life to exist (sure Tyranids might not be bound to life as we know it, but we are talking about the very essence of life itself) since they too would be broken down into something else.. right?

Dude, you're thinking too 'in the box'.

The tyranid bio-gruel dissolves everything. Everything. The bioships even drink a planets mineral wealth if they can reach it.

And as for acids not breaking down cells, where did you hear that? Conventional acids work by breaking things down on a molecular elvel with hydrogen ions. Tyranids have all kinds of everything when it comes to breaking stuff down - they're not even limited to conventional acids. We know that they break down cells because they do that to every living they ever beat - that's how they get to all the yummy proteins and nucleic acids (DNA).

A versatile organism with some nice tricks vs the god-mother of biology that got hungry?

Grimdark winneth.

Col. Tartleton
25-11-2011, 17:51
Worse comes to worse the Nids would manifest the Hive Lord who would take a lesson from the Imperial Book and "NUKE IT FROM ORBIT!"

The Tyranids can dissolve to an elemental "atomic" level. They can build the proteins and acids they want to from raw elements. Chitin is leathery (although it can be stiffened in shells with minerals), but the "Chitin" (if it's a talon it should be Keratin but whatever) used in "Rending Claws" is described as "diamond hard" which to me says it's probably an "organic" carbon crystal since organic compounds will never get as hard as carbon crystals.

Terminators are made out of Ceramite and Adamantium (which presumably is something resembling Synthetic Diamond), so naturally if Genestealers can rend it apart they're going to need some impressive Carbon Crystals (or alternatively their claws are coated in a warp field but they've never been described as such).

deadly_juice
25-11-2011, 18:22
Just thought I would point something out here:

IF an acid COULD break biomass down to the ATOMIC level, it would no longer be organic, but inorganic. ALL that would be left would be free elements such as hydrogen, carbon, helium, boron, silicon, etc. Nevermind that biomass specifically refers to the organic material of living or recently living organisms. Pretty damn sure the Nid codex refers to the Hive Fleets devouring the biomass of entire systems leaving naught but a clean crust (you know, the outer layer of the planet, made up of inorganics).

Organic refers to carbon based COMPOUNDS. Meaning that there are other 'bitz' attached to the carbons, whether it be as complex as a polyaromatic hydrocarbon and eukaryotic cells or as simple as methane and viruses.

But then again what do I know, grimdark gets around everything anyway. Nids are somehow able to completely ignore the Laws of Thermodynamics and Entropy.

Mit Gas
25-11-2011, 19:13
Ok, so ive always been a fan of The thing, the original movie from the 70's
but seeing the 2011 version got me thinking, here there are some intresting new facts, like instant mutation when coming in contact with uncontaminated organic material, this makes it come down to - if you touch it, you will be subject to mutation and eventually transformation.
try and push it away with your hands, and your hands will have to touch it, making your hands subject to mutation from the "thing" and also stick to its body as it absorbs your biological material, your own fingertips becoming a part of its body.. forcing you to become fixed with it while it can continue to absorb/consume you.

also as it comes down to a cellular level of mutation, even the smallest "part" of the "thing" can potentially contaminate and eventually consume/transform larger beings many times its own size - perhaps even its blood can have this effect, but on a slower level, thinking of the fact that the cells never ceased to live and continued to replicate and absorb/transform uncontaminated cells, even though the body had died.

so.. would the "thing" be able to destroy/contaminate/consume larger quantities of the Tyranid race? certainly splinter fleets and some hive fleets could be at great risk.

Tyranid organisms engage in close combat, sometimes getting stuck in a motion of combat as uncontaminated organic material gets stuck with the fast mutating skin/flesh of the thing, eventually consuming the creature that tried to attack it. and even if they slay the "things" the blood could potentially contaminate them, and on another scale if they eat chunks of it, it will continue to mutate and transform from inside the Tyranids body.
and if it eventually made it to the digestion pools.. would the cells themselves be destroyed? or is there a possibility that those very cells could continue to contaminate, and then absorbed into the hiveships themseveles eventually take over completly, since it is all organisms in its own right.

would this be the ultimate doom of the Tyranid race?
the race that is said to be the ultimate doom of every other race in the galaxy?

intresting thought, please share your opinion, thoughts and reason behind them :cool:

Difficult to say, really. It wholly depends on the abilities of the Nids, we do not know if the Hive Mind could single out the threat. I would imagine a splinter force from the Nids could get infected but since the swarm knows that something si wrong with them if they return, the thing might not get much further than that. Also, the thing cannot replicate inorganic material and it's hard to say how much inorganic stuff is part of bio-weapons. I know, I know, they're called bio weapons but but I think the thing would also have a hard time replicating the xenomorph e.g.!

By the way, the "original" is from 1982 (if you talk about the John Carpenter version) - which was based on the story "who goes there?" much like the movie from the 50s. And both the film from the 50s and Carpenter's film are about a billion times better than the prequel, which pretty much got everything wrong you can get wrong!

Corvus Corone
25-11-2011, 23:47
By the way, the "original" is from 1982 (if you talk about the John Carpenter version) - which was based on the story "who goes there?" much like the movie from the 50s. And both the film from the 50s and Carpenter's film are about a billion times better than the prequel, which pretty much got everything wrong you can get wrong!

Vaguely off topic: Couldn't agree more. The new prequel failed pretty hard =(.

OT: I think we can safely assume that through some kind of grimdark wizardry, the tyranids are able to synthesize compounds and material at a very fundamental level.

You can always explain it away in a 40k way. Maybe it uses the power of the Hive Mind sentience (warp?) to bend the physics in it's spawning pools... (yeap... that'll do...).

Requiet
26-11-2011, 03:10
Just to understand better, is The Thing ever beaten in this movies? If so how or what hurts it?

Gaargod
26-11-2011, 03:23
I think people are misunderstanding the Hive Mind. It isn't like being hooked into a giant computer system - you can't bash a user over the head, then sit down at his terminal and expect no one to notice.

The instant the Thing took it over, the Hive Mind would know its no longer a tyranid and thus absolutely everything within synapse range (warp based entity, remember) would also know this. You could reasonably fool unguided beasts into not attacking you - but you couldn't specifically give them orders yourself, as they'd work it out, I think.

Forsworn
26-11-2011, 03:24
The Hive Mind has more Tyranids than the Thing has atoms. . .

I'd bet that as soon as a synapse creature was lost it would realize the threat and counter it appropriately.

From orbit.

Leaving no planet.

Or Thing.

deadly_juice
01-12-2011, 13:12
why would the synapse creature be 'lost'? Why would the hive mind know it had been 'lost'?

Korraz
01-12-2011, 13:18
It's the hivemind. It knows when Gaunt #122745905 on Somewherpheron Prime is having a bowel movement.

Okuto
01-12-2011, 13:54
Personally the worst match up for nids are crons and daemons.....why GW hasn't explored the awesome ness of this baffers me....

You can't consume crons or daemons....I'd love to see nids put in their place by these two as much as I'd like to see Chaos vs crons

Korraz
01-12-2011, 13:57
Disregarding anything by Him Who Must Not Be Named, Tyranids generally try to avoid encounters with 'Crons and Chaos. Biomass that has been tainted by Chaos is uninteresting, and there has to be a huge price in it for the Hive Mind to fight Necrons. If Potential Gained Biomass - Lost Biomass =<0, they'll just pack up and go. If not, it's like fighting anyone else.

Charistoph
01-12-2011, 14:19
Disregarding anything by Him Who Must Not Be Named, Tyranids generally try to avoid encounters with 'Crons and Chaos. Biomass that has been tainted by Chaos is uninteresting, and there has to be a huge price in it for the Hive Mind to fight Necrons. If Potential Gained Biomass - Lost Biomass =<0, they'll just pack up and go. If not, it's like fighting anyone else.

Pretty much. 'Nids and Necrons only usually fight each other (in the fluff) when the 'Nids are invading a recently awakened Tomb World. In this case, the world is now looking at being eaten or fried, but the end result is the same to the poor sobs on the planet.

As for Daemons, it depends. If the Daemon was actually possessing real flesh, and then lost it's hold on the flesh and fled back to the Warp, then I believe the 'Nids would eat what was left, usually by Rippers. But active Daemons would be seen as another predator encroaching on their feeding ground, and treated as such.

The Devourer
01-12-2011, 19:51
Tyranids would probably just pack up and go. Fighting the thing would be pointless. They don't have any weapons that can reliably destroy the thing at an atomic level (attacking from orbit is too inaccurate), and if they leave just one cell it will return. They can't study it since even if they kill the organism they will need to touch an existing cell to get any information about it. The thing will have taken control of the tyranid that ate it before the hive mind learns anything. The only safe way of handling the thing's matter is to destroy it's cells which prevents them from looking at it.

This is one of the few situations where tyranids are at a disadvantage, the Hive minds primary method for studying organisms is by digesting them, which is something they simply can't do to the thing. They have no inorganic technology so can't contain it like a human could. They would be able to see it's dangerous from what the tyranids see but it would be impossible for them to ever learn how it works.

By controlling a tyranid it would make it no longer tyranid. This would seperate its mind from the hive mind so the thing couldn't synapse tyranids but to the hive mind the tyranid just disappeared.

Corvus Corone
01-12-2011, 20:36
Tyranids would probably just pack up and go. Fighting the thing would be pointless. They don't have any weapons that can reliably destroy the thing at an atomic level (attacking from orbit is too inaccurate), and if they leave just one cell it will return. They can't study it since even if they kill the organism they will need to touch an existing cell to get any information about it. The thing will have taken control of the tyranid that ate it before the hive mind learns anything. The only safe way of handling the thing's matter is to destroy it's cells which prevents them from looking at it.

This is one of the few situations where tyranids are at a disadvantage, the Hive minds primary method for studying organisms is by digesting them, which is something they simply can't do to the thing. They have no inorganic technology so can't contain it like a human could. They would be able to see it's dangerous from what the tyranids see but it would be impossible for them to ever learn how it works.

By controlling a tyranid it would make it no longer tyranid. This would seperate its mind from the hive mind so the thing couldn't synapse tyranids but to the hive mind the tyranid just disappeared.

By this logic, the tyranids could be defeated by any sufficient virus, bacteria or other cellular pathogen.

See antibodies, acids, sterile biology... They could (and must) do it.

Konovalev
01-12-2011, 20:53
We already have a Thing analogy in the 40k universe. It's the destroyer plague spread by followers of nurgle. If the epitome of virii, created by a god can't infect and wipe out the tyranid race, neither could an organism that consumes and controls.

Remember the Thing consumes existing ORGANIC material, then poops out a copy of it that is under the Things control. You could wreck the Thing with a proper virus or acid compound.