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Strike Anywhere
18-04-2006, 15:37
I got really scared when I read that Empire might become more religious...

In the Empire army book, while things have gotten darker since 6th ed, the nostalgic 80s generic fantasy is still represented stoicly by them. Items such as the - Dragon bow, Sword of Power or Orb of Thunder etc, are generic fantasy items you'd find in old school AD&D or 80s high fantasy. It brings a tear to my eye. There are just tidbits here and there that remind you.

They don't have the 'specialist items' named for particular races like Dark elven Crimson Deaths or Lizardmen blades of Chotec. PLEASE LET THEM KEEP THEIR GENERIC SOUNDING ITEMS. Don't make them like 40k imperials in fantasy.

Morph
18-04-2006, 16:12
Couldn't disagree more. The more the warhammer world establishes its own identity and breaks away from being a D&D/Tolkein rip-off the better. I much prefer the grim n' gritty Empire.

Perhaps I'm just a sucker for religion. I enjoy the way that whilst theoretically it should make the citizens of the Empire more moral, in actuality it raises more moral questions. What drives men to worship their gods so utterly? Religion in the old world is just so dark, I love it.

It adds an extra dimension to otherwise normal (i.e. boring) humans.

And flagellants are just way cool.

Pokpoko
18-04-2006, 16:16
What drives men to worship their gods so utterly?
the fact that in Warhammer world the gods are a tad trigger-happy, and being an atheist is life-threathening occupation?:D
but generally i agree-the less "high-fantasy" the WHworld gets the better.i wouldn't mind a schism of a sort to be a theme of some sub-campaign if GW ever gets round to do another.

Captain Brown
18-04-2006, 16:26
I got really scared when I read that Empire might become more religious...

In the Empire army book, while things have gotten darker since 6th ed, the nostalgic 80s generic fantasy is still represented stoicly by them. Items such as the - Dragon bow, Sword of Power or Orb of Thunder etc, are generic fantasy items you'd find in old school AD&D or 80s high fantasy. It brings a tear to my eye. There are just tidbits here and there that remind you.

They don't have the 'specialist items' named for particular races like Dark elven Crimson Deaths or Lizardmen blades of Chotec. PLEASE LET THEM KEEP THEIR GENERIC SOUNDING ITEMS. Don't make them like 40k imperials in fantasy.

Strike Anywhere,

I am not sure what you mean by your statement about the Empire becoming more religious. The Empire Army List has always had a religious undercurrent, back many editions ago the Empire’s best Knights were all members of religious orders similar to the Templars of history. The flagellants have also been in the list for quite a few editions, those who have lost all hope and wait for the end of the world.

If you are concerned that the renaming of magic items will somehow lesson your feelings of nostalgia, I suggest you re-name magic items purchased by your army for themes that will continue to ‘bring a tear to your eye’. Many players name characters and heroes, nothing is stopping you from doing the same.

CB

prince olthin
18-04-2006, 16:39
I disagree I can't stand the cartoony image of the 80s, I much preffer the more gritty, dark, no one is good theme of the more modern minis

Neknoh
18-04-2006, 17:12
I can only think of a single really Dark Fantasy massive world, and that is the World of Darkness, still that is set in the present time.

Of course, some fantasy games have dark tones (Elder Scrolls series and probably the new Zelda), but still, they have their own established universes and they are FAR from as dark and gritty as Warhammer and Warhammer 40k.

I say more religius zeal to the Empire and rename your items as you please.

Stouty
18-04-2006, 17:49
The empire can't get too gritty because we need contrast, if everyone is; beating up their fuedaly bound peasants, enslaving their fairer cousins, aloof and uncaring about the fate of the rest of existance, bemoaning the loss of their golden age, surging forth to rape and pillage, sacrificing souls to their dark gods, undermining the lands of man, summoning the dread legions to end all life; you get no contrast and it just isn't "shocking". Swear till your blue in the face and your not swearing at all, now it's just another set of words. In the same way if you make everything gritty or wrong nothing seems out of place.

neXus6
18-04-2006, 17:55
I like Empire as they are, they are a bit more realistic you can see their set up working in the real world (albiet a few hundred years ago), if they become the Imperium with chainmail I won't be happy.

Dr Death
18-04-2006, 17:56
Ahhh the good old grim and gritty vrs light hearted and flippant debate. For a long time before 6th edition warhammer managed both. I must say im inclined the same way. Warhammer has always had a very dark foundation, the various gods, the insidious advance of chaos, skaven background is positively nightmare enducing. But all of this is countered and made sense of (or more accurately made nonsense of) by having pump wagons and giant hamster wheels, blood bowl and (in the 5th ed rulebook) ridiculous cartoon punctuating its books' pages. I think its important to carefully maintain that difference, conflict even, of images.

The brillience of warhammer is it managed to go fully down both paths and yet still be loved as a single world, allowing players to choose precisely how much humour they interjected into their individual experience at any one time. To go down one path at the expense of the other would be criminal.

Dr Death

samw
18-04-2006, 18:04
Warhammer has always benefitted from being a broad church as it were. Those who like classic high fantasy can go off and play elves, the more historical wargamer finds much to satisfy in the empire or Bretonnian list, the dark-edged steam-punk lover can grab Skaven or Chaos Dwarfs and the wackier guys can nab a handful of O&G. This is a key reason why GW dwarfs many other, equally viable systems, because it offers so much to so many. Where else can you have Dragons shot out of the sky by machine guns?

The same thing applies to the humour, and I think GW have got it right. The dressing up of a 10ft tall cannibalistic ogre in drag was classic. The juxtaposition of ferocious bestial orcs with doom divers and pump wagons makes them all the more rich and interesting beyond the evil enforcers of much of fantasy. Even that wonderful line in the rule book where a celestial wizard crushes a castle with a comet and is told, "You're only supposed to blow the bloody gates off!". This balances warhammer on a knife edge. You're never quite sure when they're taking the mick.

I don't want to go back to the old nonsense (shudders at names of old lizardmen) but neither do I want to squash all the wry humour that makes warhammer on some level a parody of those oh-so-serious Tolkein knock offs. We've got 40k for doom and gloom.

I think the Empire should certainly keep the classics, the human nature of them is incredibly important. The Empire in my view should always be the 'copntrol', that which we measure the wackiness or originality of other races against. The Empire are us. They're most likely what we would be in the fantasy world. They should be the most recognisable and this goes right down to the magic weaponry. What names would we use if confronted with these items? This is what sets them apart from the other races.

Personally, I hope GW will allow for every point of view. The Empire's a big place after all. Perhaps the northern provinces have become more evangelical in the wake of Chaos's attack, doesn't mean the southern ones have. I think the Middenheimers after saving their city would be loathe to kow-tow to a more fanatical church of Sigmar. On the models, give us an extra sprue of tokens and items of religious connotation, and let us decide whether to attach them or not. Rather than liturgising technology as in 40k, stir up some light Renaissance tension between the Sigmarite church and those engineers who'd rather put their trust in a protractor than a priest. Allow people to have an army of zealots and witch-hunters led by an Archlector, but also allow a secular force, or even one dedicated to another sanctioned deity like Ulric or Taal, without a twin-tailed comet in sight.

In short, let the fanatics have their flagellants and let us secularists have our state troopers. :)

neXus6
18-04-2006, 18:05
See I've always seen it that way, none of the races are fully standing in "light hearted and flippant" and as there is always war and the threat of chaos there is always a side of "grim and gritty" but I think in reference to the Empire it works as it is that while everything is still going to hell there is a semblance of normal life, everyone isn't becoming a mad worshiping flaggellent. I'm worried it could very easily go to far into the grim and gritty 40k esq area.

How the Orc and Goblin book turns out it really going to show what probably gonig to happen to Empire, if O&G get their character and fun stunted in favour of "gritty" then empire probably arn't going to be great.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
18-04-2006, 18:55
GW is a very trustworthy company. You can trust them to raise prices (I haven't bought a mini in a year now), put out good minis (most of the time) and recently they've gotten pretty damn sweet at writing army lists. The greatest marketing factor of FANTASY, imho, is the versatility of theming and the lack of a dominating army/race. GW knows this, they won't make it so that empire players have no choice but to put purity seals all over their spearmen's bodies etc. Well, I hope not...I don't play Empire but they're my favourite non-green army and I'll quit the hobby before I deal with TEH IMPIRE!!! LOL!!! ********.

Then they reveal Sigmar's incarcerated in the Iron Throne in Karaz A Karak where they feed C'tan Shards (uhhhh) to keep his soul aive so that he may one day be reborn to conquor the Warhammer World.

Sir Charles
18-04-2006, 18:57
The empire can't get too gritty because we need contrast, if everyone is; beating up their fuedaly bound peasants, enslaving their fairer cousins, aloof and uncaring about the fate of the rest of existance, bemoaning the loss of their golden age, surging forth to rape and pillage, sacrificing souls to their dark gods, undermining the lands of man, summoning the dread legions to end all life; you get no contrast and it just isn't "shocking". Swear till your blue in the face and your not swearing at all, now it's just another set of words. In the same way if you make everything gritty or wrong nothing seems out of place.
Funny, thats what Bretonnian players use to say and look what happened to them.

neXus6
18-04-2006, 19:16
Those Bret Men at Arms and Bowmen would look so good if they all had teeth and noses. :wtf:!

samw
18-04-2006, 19:35
Funny, thats what Bretonnian players use to say and look what happened to them.

The peasants got darker but the knights for me just seem as pure as ever. You'd never get an elector count to think of chastity as a virtue. :p

By contrast with anyone else in the world, and that's the important thing, a Bretonnian paladin is still a beacon of light. Grail Knights aren't called living saints for nothing. Of course they're not all good, just as chaos warriors and marauders aren't all evil. but on the warhammer spectrum I think they beat all comers at being the best candidates for 'good guys'.

neXus6
18-04-2006, 19:43
The peasants got darker

Darker...they look like a nurgle cult they are falling appart that badly. If I was a knight I wouldn't like a bunch of guys that can't even affoard to have noses watching me and my mates back. :p

One thing I do like about Fantasy is the good/evil split. In 40k everyone is evil...or hungry in the case of 'nids. :p

True I don't believe they would move the Empire into a mid ground between good and evil but what I don't want them to do is turn them into some post apocalyptic nation. Yes there is war, yes there is chaos, but yes you still have an army protecting your nation and you have survived for this long.
I could see a very small proportion of the Empire being overcome by prophecies of doom but that is already the case. I could not see the thinking men and the Electors and high ranking warriors going the same way.

I've said it before I'll say it again the only thing empire needs are some rules tweaks and new models. That's it.

The Emperor
18-04-2006, 19:58
I could do without all the puffy shirts. But barring that, I like the Empire just fine.

neXus6
18-04-2006, 20:06
See the puffy shirt thing does look a bit wierd but it actually works on the metal models like the Greatswords. I think it is purely the lack of detail on the statetroops because they are such old sculpts, with the detail being put into the newer models now I think the puffy shirts could really work. Though I don't think I'd be heartbroken if only the Greatswords kept it. :D

The Emperor
18-04-2006, 20:12
Well, if they keep them, then they should make at least one rank-and-file guy who looks just like Jerry Seinfeld and put him in a puffy shirt. ;)

RGB
18-04-2006, 21:11
By Sigmar, if they remove the puffy shirts I will burn GW down with vodka and a lighter and then none of you will get to play anything ever again.

Puffy shirts and oversized codpieces show the world how dead 'ard we are. And special. And so on.

So if it's only more skulls/spikes/crap that they're adding to the models, fine, i'll grit my teeth and file them right off; if they change the entire look, I might really have to get that zippo and the flammable alcohol.

Trunks
19-04-2006, 01:30
Keep the codpieces and puffy shirts for all I care.

Just get rid of the ridiculous shoes. My Dark Elves don't run around in Nikes, your Empire shouldn't run around in loafers.

RGB
19-04-2006, 04:26
Well, some people really like the slippers too, but my men are from Ostland where the roads are muddy and the weather is chilly so they do have boots. Greenstuff, wonderful thing.

Boots I could waffle on, but not the puffed sleeves. Puffed sleeves are a sign that Sigmar loves you.

neXus6
19-04-2006, 04:29
Boots good, well sculpted puffed sleeves good, halberds that look dangerous and have attached blades good. :p

RGB
19-04-2006, 04:32
Yeah, the current ones are a bit of a mess, no? I like the ones in the militia box though.

neXus6
19-04-2006, 04:34
Yeah I've got a 19 strong unit converted up with the militia halberds (I asked about and collected as many as I could) and the swordsmen's shield arm, for my halberdiers with shields. Unfortunatly I never finished the army, I ran out of halberds and I need another unit of 19. :(

RGB
19-04-2006, 04:40
See, that's another silly thing, halberds with shields. Shouldn't they just give them heavy armour?

Well, I actually like the halberdier arms as they make excellent converted pikemen.

neXus6
19-04-2006, 04:54
I don't have a problem with shields, getting a 5+ save from shooting and having the option to take either a 4+ save in combat or a 6+ save and S4, plus they look cool.

You like the arms cause you can turn them into something else. :p That just about sums them up really. :D

Dr Death
19-04-2006, 12:21
I've said it before and i'll say it again- if empire "go brettonia" im leaving this game. I loathe and detest what they did with the brettonians and moreso because they did it badly. Empire has always had religious undertones but ultimately they, just like any historical army is one that fights on its stomach rather than its faith. The religious undertones come to the fore in the more hard-up and desparate people, the state troops may have small talismans but they're not going to be carting around too much, because they know well that the only thing that gets you home is the strength of your own arm.

How you interpret that is up to you personally, but i think the best way to show it on the model would be to have the talisman's actually sculpted on, rather than as space consuming "bitz". That was the lesson learnt from the bling marine release. Empire are most definately not bling and so a little conservative sculpting should do well.

I agree utterly with anyone suggesting boots, the clogs i think are a bit outdated and really dont give across the image of an army of steel and flesh.

What might be a nice addition to the empire state troop plastics, assuming they will be redone, is a few heads/legs/arms with some wear and tear. Nothing too extravegant, but a bit or ripped uniform and a bandage on an arm, or the occassional scar down the face would really give a little story to your rank and file. A solid breastplate for all combat state troops (Halberdiers, swordsmen, spearmen) would also help bring out the idea that they're official troops, armed by the state.

As far as the idea of going down the traits road and theming forces for the states, i would resist to be honest. Warhammer doesnt need that "ultimate adaptability" that 40k has, its a more complex system and gussying it up any more for essentially the same things is a bit pointless. That said, a couple of sprues (you could split it between the civilised south and the rougher north) never go amiss.

Dr Death

Freak Ona Leash
19-04-2006, 12:41
Freak says do away with the puffy shirts and codpieces. They look damn stupid. And they have to be impractical while fighting. Now, dot make them the Warhammer Imperium but still, make them more serious. Freak has never gotten peoples' childish obsession with the annoying brand of "Warhammer humor" where Orcs talk like British wanksters and men have frilly underwear...

Sir Charles
19-04-2006, 14:06
The frilly shirts have nothing to do with humor and everything to do with the style of the time the Empire is inspired by, just look at the Swiss Guard.

Pravus
19-04-2006, 14:27
Do I have too? Arguing historicity for a fantasy game has always been a bit incongruous to me. My dislike of the Empire is purely aesthetic - the floppy hats and balloon pants look comic even if they aren't meant to be. Ramp them back to a more late 15th Century look - cannons become bombards, handguns become handgonnes. Much better.

As for the "yeah, we're da orcs, we're gonna bash youse stunties good!" - they're like the Kray Twins - they've got this cartoon knock-about, loveable bad boy image on the surface and brutal, mindless savagery underlying it all. So, c'mon GW, which is it? SoC didn't help matters either.

RGB
19-04-2006, 17:21
Do I have too? Arguing historicity for a fantasy game has always been a bit incongruous to me. My dislike of the Empire is purely aesthetic - the floppy hats and balloon pants look comic even if they aren't meant to be.

They are not comic and your aesthetic values apparently have nothing to do with my aesthetic values. So it's a moot point at best. I mean, look at Bret/Empire knight helmets - are you seriously going to tell me all that decoration is less silly than some slashed sleeves?

And vague historicity is EVERYTHING in this game. Without it, WH would be another generic High Fantasy clone.

corvo
20-04-2006, 03:06
RGB is making a good point. Without the 15th-16th century influences on the empire it would be like all the other generic fantasy settings. Dropping the late middle ages Holy Roman Empire into a fantasy world has really allowed GW to brand their own world, borrowing from others as they needed.

MadJackMcJack
20-04-2006, 07:17
So in what way did GW change Brettonia? I never saw what they were like before.

Rafi
20-04-2006, 07:43
I just don't want the Empire to turn into 'Fantasy Battle Imperium' with models covered in scrolls and chains and other garbage. :P

Pravus
20-04-2006, 08:40
The arguments about historical accuracy are incongruous because in a fantasy setting they are arbitary and a matter of subjective opinion. What ever elements are there are there for reasons of choice on the part of the designers not because they have to be there for the sake of accurracy. Arguing, therefore that the Empire HAS to look the way it does is, therefore, baseless.


They are not comic and your aesthetic values apparently have nothing to do with my aesthetic values. So it's a moot point at best.

However, given that neither of us are GW designers and that all aesthetics are subjective, my point carries exactly the same weight as yours.


(Kray twins - never thought they would come up in a conversation about WHFB).

It is a good metaphor for the greenskin's dichotomous image though.

RGB
20-04-2006, 17:54
I just don't want the Empire to turn into 'Fantasy Battle Imperium' with models covered in scrolls and chains and other garbage. :P

Have you seen the Empire Spearman new concept sculpt? Not only is it just the 5th. ed. Clone Trooper Halberdier with Knobs On, it also looks like it could find itself a home in Warmachine or 40K. Certainly he'd stand out like the ornate monstrosity he is among my current batch.

They did keep the slashed sleeves. Huzzah. But I'm going to be filing away decorations more than painting if that's how things are going to look like.

Dr Death
20-04-2006, 18:12
Well arguing specific historical points in warhammer is a bit pointless, on that i agree. However arguing that the empire should keep their holy roman empire, etc. of which balloon pants is a part of the image i do not think is irrelevant. The basic empire grunt is distinctive because of the style of his clothing, and taking that away would take the iconic image of the empire away. Frankly, i dont think the clothing style looks at all comic, maybe marginally if painted in bright colours, but it actually gives volume to the body part it is on, which when on arms or the thighs can make them look quite threatening.

And for MadJackMcJack- Before 6th edition brettonia were normal, they were your basic, standard medieval fuedal nation, has its ups and downs but it generally works. With 6th edition, GW wanted to gussy up their image, make them more edgy and so everything is taken a step too far- Peasents in particular became inbred, malnourished, rotting, while knights became haughty arrogant but cleaner than clean. The entire thing was just taken a step too far.

Dr Death

Commissar von Toussaint
22-04-2006, 15:43
Okay, the reason I even started playing Fantasy was that it was the ONLY fantasy game that had the 15th Century look to it.

The cover of the old Empire rule book, which the knight standing in the stirrups summoning more troops - I was sold instantly. Of course I was subsequently bitterly disappointed when I realized my "stout Empire infantry" had the worst stats in the game and that my vaunted knights were overpriced crap.

But the look of Empire is essential. Take that away and you lose a huge part of what makes them work.

If you don't like the aesthetic, play a different army. There are only a dozen others to choose from.

Oh, and please tell me they aren't going to "40k" their models. Geez guys, get a clue. All that "detail" is really "clutter" that no one wants to paint.

Frankly I think it is an excuse for their extortionate prices. "Why yes, we charge $3 per plastic model, but look at all that detail!"

Yeah, great. Can I get one of the older, cleaner sculpts for 50 cents? I'm painting big armies with lots of troops, not a Golden Demon diorama. Sheesh.

kenshin
23-04-2006, 06:56
I like the present empire. It has already gotten a bit darker than editions past. Remember empire is "human" through all despair, hardship, and pain.... it is still in our nature to live life and enjoy it. We find a way to make the best of every situation and if you trace through history... through the hardest of times, there are stories of happiness, love, and hope. If GW makes the empire super religious then imo it takes away from the humanity aspect of the race.... makes empire in general, more shallow.

He Himself
23-04-2006, 07:14
Soldier praying to stay alive from a fight and holding to a hammer/skull/cross on his chest would be nice. Little religious taste to the mix, a soldier praying that he would survive a battle and make it to home to his wife and children. That would be nice.

But its not good when this same soldier is wearing rags and is shouting doom on top of a rock, his whole body covered by purity seals and skulls. I don't want swordmen to be flagellants armed with sword and shield.