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bam4k
26-11-2011, 19:05
I am on the fence on how to equip my empire knights (lance or great weapon). I have not played much 8th edition fantasy with heavy cavalry and am looking for any and all thoughts on the matter. I am planning on running two units of 12 (at 2500) with full command. Thanks for any advice.

calnen
26-11-2011, 19:40
Thats quite a lot of points on cav for 8th edition.

I've been playing knights in units of 5 or 6 in most games, just to give my list some flexibility (I especially like the 3x2 formation). I always go with lances - empire are very lucky to get our 1+ saves for 23pts so I like to make the most of it. For a main combat block though, I can see that great weapons would be very appealing. (Since you wont be breaking the enemy on the charge very often).

PKPioneer
27-11-2011, 01:22
Stick them together with great weapons and the swiftness banner. S6 with a 2+ save is nothing to laugh at. If you're set on using that many that's what I would do at least.

Lord Solar Plexus
27-11-2011, 08:09
I am on the fence on how to equip my empire knights (lance or great weapon). I have not played much 8th edition fantasy with heavy cavalry and am looking for any and all thoughts on the matter. I am planning on running two units of 12 (at 2500) with full command. Thanks for any advice.

Those are good-sized units in 8th.

If you take any of the Lores of Light or Beasts, I would go with lances. Light helps you to improve your Ini. That might not be relevant against a huge horde, but it allows you to strike and kill depleted units (no need to face any more killing blows) or some Monsters (a HPA is I4) that would otherwise kill half a dozen Knights or more.

Beasts, namely Wyssans, ameliorates the problem of S3 when you get stuck.

ftayl5
27-11-2011, 09:13
I'm a great weapon fan personally. Considering it will take multiple rounds of combat to break a unit, it's a huge bonus to be S5 every round.
You don't lose much either as knights are only I3, which means they'll strike last against a lot of things anyway.

SteelTitan
27-11-2011, 17:43
And I'd consider running a warrior priest in both squads for the rerolls to hit.

Rajhald
27-11-2011, 20:27
One of the empire players in our group always runs a unit of 11 with a warrior priest, and great weapons. The 2+ save keeps you alive and the GW's ensure you always hurt when you hit. At ini 3 you won't swing first every often, and in all reality the knights have no reason to be hitting the front of a unit, the flank to generate combat rez and hopefully break the ranks.

They can be a super nasty unit especially with the flaming banner.

Lord Solar Plexus
28-11-2011, 06:16
Meh, a 1+ Sv keeps you alive even better and lances hurt just as much when you hit, so this alone is no reason to take WW.

Yes, you can assume that you cannot possibly break or destroy any unit on the charge but that is dangerous. Units do get depleted, especially against Empire. Why face another round of high-strength attacks from those last models? Why suffer grievous losses from a HPA's 20+ S6 armour-ignoring, auto-hitting attacks? (I exaggerate theatrically for effect - does it work?) Why then take cavalry at all? If it is impossible to destroy or break the opposition, take more Greatswords and artillery!

Empire, Lizards, Dwarfs, quite a few Undead, many Monsters all have a low Ini, so being potentially able to wipe remnants and support units out before they hit you and take some guys with them is nifty. Remember that every Empire player has access to the Lore of Light without using up the L4.

theshoveller
28-11-2011, 11:12
Meh, a 1+ Sv keeps you alive even better and lances hurt just as much when you hit, so this alone is no reason to take WW.
Yeah, the thing about a 1+ save is that it's still effectively the same when hit with a s4 attack (of which there are many).

Oogie boogie boss
28-11-2011, 11:18
Speaking as someone who's played against Empire a lot, i'd be more scared of Knights with Greatswords, so maybe that would be a better option? Lances are fine, but if you can weather the charge then they become a lot less scary. GW are scary every round.

Cambion Daystar
28-11-2011, 11:22
Proxy them a bit before you build them, so you see what you like the most.
D'd say go for greatweaponsm but both are viable choices.
To me the greatweapons are a bit better because they have more hitting power in the following combat rounds.

bam4k
28-11-2011, 11:57
Thanks for all the input guys. I guess I will use some knights of the real as proxy for a few games with each set up. I would love to hear any more thoughts on this matter.

Lord Solar Plexus
29-11-2011, 08:46
I do think that both are equally viable. My opinion is coloured a bit because in my neck of the woods, striking first (with Light) can take out that HPA. Remember that almost every Imperial unit will need support, and knights are no exception. If you do get stuck, get that supporting infantry unit in and apply superior force in a limited area.

Hammers can be quite nifty and are obviously better suited to a grind. They do however count on doing just that - and then I ask myself why I shouldn't just use a unit of Greatswords.

With multiple units of Knights, the question is a bit moot, as you can field both.

Scythe
29-11-2011, 12:47
Hammers can be quite nifty and are obviously better suited to a grind. They do however count on doing just that - and then I ask myself why I shouldn't just use a unit of Greatswords.


This is a very good point to keep in mind. Remember that for the price of a single great weapon knight, you can have 2 greatswords (with a still very respectable 4+ save), and still have some points leftover. What's more, the greatswords are actually stubborn, so also better suited when you lose combat. In grinding contests, the greatswords will win out. The knights main advantage lies in mobility, not grinding as such.

Cambion Daystar
29-11-2011, 13:00
Also useful is the ability to shrug of 5/6 of S3+S4 hits (for lance-armed knights) or 2/3 of s4 hits for greatweapon armed knights. That keeps them alive a lot longer than greatswords. Also, because of bigger base, there are less of them caught in blast templates.

scubasteve04
29-11-2011, 13:00
Knights are a support unit, not a big block to fight other blocks head on. Doing this is just shooting yourself in the foot. Infantry are kings in this respect. If you want a hard hitting block take Greatswords or Halbs with a WP.

Knights should be rolling up the flank, clearing out enemy skirmishers, cavalry and monsters. The only time they should be hitting big blocks of infantry is on the flank/rear when they are already engaged with one of your infantry blocks, or a low LD block that is caught outside of BSB/General range. They still have steadfast, but chances of failing their poor unmodified LD is still high.

I took lances because I didn't want to build white wolf knights, or convert. Lances are nice, because you should be breaking things on the charge. Knights are not for prolonged combat. I use 10 Knights with flaming banner and musician, and 5 knights with a musician and it seems to be a good balance.

Jim
29-11-2011, 13:17
I run 10 Inner Circle Knights with Lances and Shields and Flaming Banner. The 1+ save is much better than a 2+ due to the large amounts of S4 stuff around. If you add in a Warrior Priest and a TGM with Sword of Sigismund (ASF & +1S) plus Laurels of Victory you have a unit that can dish/receive quite a lot of pain...

Jim

Chaos Undecided
29-11-2011, 14:13
Thats very much the sort of setup I'd use for them really, makes them very good at dealing with those regenerating beasties I'd say.

Askari
29-11-2011, 15:42
Great Weapons for basic Knights.
Lances for Inner Circle.

Normal Knights S3 becomes a real problem if they get stuck in combat, even though the 1+ save is brilliant.
For Inner Circle, this isn't a problem, as they are S4 even in prolonged combats, and a mighty S6 on the charge at, potentially, I10 ASF (yeah, Lore of Light is amazing, get used to it), which also means you don't need a Warrior Priest for them - worth noting.

I use one of each at anything 2000 or over, 5 GW Knights for hunting fast cavalry, war machines, etc. and 5 IC Knights with Flaming Banner for monster hunting.

Scythe
29-11-2011, 19:21
Yeah, the thing about a 1+ save is that it's still effectively the same when hit with a s4 attack (of which there are many).

Actually, an 1+ save is twice as good as a 2+ vs S4. 16.7% chance of failing versus 33.3%, as S4 reduces armour save by 1.

Okuto
29-11-2011, 19:25
GWs all the way.....they aren't gonna ride down their foes quick....it's gonna be a grindfest so GWs are the way to go

Also your cav might not even get the charge off due to the random charge length....they might actually get charged and GWs just help out even more....

This is just one of the things I found out when I played my first 8th edition game where my knights rolled a crappy distance and got charged instead.....not good for me...

Gosh I missed the "stable" charge ranges....

pop daddy
29-11-2011, 19:26
Great Weapons for basic Knights.
Lances for Inner Circle.

Normal Knights S3 becomes a real problem if they get stuck in combat, even though the 1+ save is brilliant.
For Inner Circle, this isn't a problem, as they are S4 even in prolonged combats, and a mighty S6 on the charge at, potentially, I10 ASF (yeah, Lore of Light is amazing, get used to it), which also means you don't need a Warrior Priest for them - worth noting.

I use one of each at anything 2000 or over, 5 GW Knights for hunting fast cavalry, war machines, etc. and 5 IC Knights with Flaming Banner for monster hunting.

I tend to agree with this. Although, if you do not have the room, IC would be negligible (remember IC makes them a special choice). If you're taking two (LARGE!) units of knights, why not go with both?! In fact, doing so would probably make your cavalry far more versatile.

Lord Solar Plexus
01-12-2011, 05:49
I use one of each at anything 2000 or over, 5 GW Knights for hunting fast cavalry, war machines, etc. and 5 IC Knights with Flaming Banner for monster hunting.

Only five? That seems awfully few. You would need to hit and wound and bypass sves with each and every hit if a monster has five wounds, and what if some big gribbly has six wounds?


GWs all the way.....they aren't gonna ride down their foes quick....it's gonna be a grindfest so GWs are the way to go

Also your cav might not even get the charge off due to the random charge length....they might actually get charged and GWs just help out even more....


That's partly true but again you are using a relatively small unit of relatively expensive models for a task as simple as being part of the battleline. You're not using their mobility and you're not going to break opponents because you equip them for a grind. That sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me.

In my opinion if your knights cannot break something fast enough for your liking on their own, support them. We're supporting combat units with shooting or magic or characters all the time, so the concept isn't so absurd. True, a charge may fail but that goes for everything else: someone might do little damage in combat, a spell might not get through, a warmachine could explode...

Scythe
01-12-2011, 06:08
Only five? That seems awfully few. You would need to hit and wound and bypass sves with each and every hit if a monster has five wounds, and what if some big gribbly has six wounds?

Hope your cannon did some damage already?

Still, it seems pretty small. 5 man knight units are great as support on the flanks and to hunt war machines etc, but I would prefer a little more hitting power if you are actually hunting dangerous things like regenerating monsters.

Askari
01-12-2011, 07:32
Yup, Cannons have usually weakened them. I find larger Knight units to be too costly because of all the other things I need to fit into 2k (3 blocks of infantry. Wizard, Priest and General. Artillery Park.) So 2 units of 5 is all I can afford.

It's not out of the realm of possibility that 5IC Knights take on a Hydra that's already taken a cannonball hit, or if they've been boosted with Birona's Timewarp. They can then start hitting flanks if they live, or at the very least tie it up if they fail.

Over 2,000 points, they get boosted up in numbers.

Tuttivillus
03-12-2011, 19:38
Also your cav might not even get the charge off due to the random charge length....they might actually get charged and GWs just help out even more....
.

Gotta agree with this one. This is a huge plus for GW, and Lord Solar, i don't see why those guys are not to break through anything, they have decent Strength and very good ASv. They are my core choice, lances got special :D

Coragus
05-12-2011, 00:43
And I'd consider running a warrior priest in both squads for the rerolls to hit.

Absolutely. My 13 Knights of the White Wolf with an attached WP destroyed a 25 man block of Warriors of Chaos with a Rapturous Standard and then had enough to take out a Chariot. Rerolling misses was gold.