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Forsworn
27-11-2011, 18:52
All the fluff I've read (Codex Grey Knights and Codex Daemons) says no. When you think about it, it makes sense.

Daemons can't break through to the materium except with help from someone already there (except in areas like the Eye of Terror, where the barriers are broken or extremely weak). Inside the warp, there's no way that another daemon (especially one that was about even with the banished daemon) would be able to reduce the banishment, since it was enacted with a level of power superior to what they could produce.

This leads me to believe that only direct intervention from a Chaos God would be able to pull it off. However, the only God that I could picture doing this is Nurgle. Khorne would be too angry with the banished daemon to help (and might even punish the offending daemon). Tzeentch would call it part of his master plan. Slaanesh would be too busy doing . . . . yeah, let's leave that blank. Nurgle cares about his followers, and if he weren't too busy, might be amenable to helping the daemon in exchange for some act of servitude.

Another quick question:
Primarchs in the background were always shown as being stronger than Greater Daemons (Fulgrim defeating an Avatar of Khaine (even if he DID get his but handed to him), Sanguinius defeating Khabanda during the siege of Terra). Would this mean that the Chaos Primarchs elevated to greater daemons would be the premier servants of the Chaos Gods (purely in terms of power level)?

blackcherry
27-11-2011, 19:33
They can't really reduce the banishment time of a demon at all. The point always was that even if you banish a powerful demon, it was a drop in ocean of foulness and it will always be back eventually. Its one of the themes of 40k. You can't stop decay, merely stall it till it overwhelms you.

Korraz
27-11-2011, 19:40
Ah. Banishment.
Since there is in no way defined what "banishing" really does, apart from kicking the Demon back in the Warp, and time has no meaning whatsoever in the Warp, and taking into consideration that the same demon can turn up several times at the same time... "I banish thee for ten thousand years!" is probably just wishful thinking. All it does is probably preventing the demon from manifesting itself "just like that." Probably. And it would most likely still summonable.

In fact, if it would really work, the GK could just make a bureaucrat company in a week or two (being the Grey Knights they can churn out full GK in now time, after all), hand everyone a section form that neat Grimoire with all the names and systematically summoning and than banishing every single demon, repeating the whole thing once the penalty runs out.

The power of Greater Demons varies. One of the big ones in full power could probably play squash with a Primarch. The Chaos Primarchs are probably among the strongest beings around, but they simply aren't the premier servants because they aren't true demons.
They are also pretty much useless. Mortarion and Magnus haven't done anything but moping and getting their hearts carved on in the last 10 000 years, nobody knows what Fulgrim is doing, Alpharius is no true servant of Chaos, and Perturabo does his own thing (and the whole Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivded is pretty... dumb anyway)
Angron is pretty much the only one doing anything.

Oh, yeah, and Lorgar. Lorgar is useless on account of being Lorgar.

This should also be in background.

Sarevok
28-11-2011, 00:16
There isnt a set banishment time, and time flows differently in the warp anyway.





Another quick question:
Primarchs in the background were always shown as being stronger than Greater Daemons (Fulgrim defeating an Avatar of Khaine (even if he DID get his but handed to him), Sanguinius defeating Khabanda during the siege of Terra). Would this mean that the Chaos Primarchs elevated to greater daemons would be the premier servants of the Chaos Gods (purely in terms of power level)?

The oldest Daemon Princes are older and stronger than the Daemon primarchs according to 4th edition Chaos Codex.

Thats Doombreed.
Although Super Greater daemons may be more powerful (Forgeworld)

Forsworn
28-11-2011, 03:11
I figured that the Primarchs could at least fight evenly with them. After all, Fulgrim (yes, pretentious pretty boy Fulgrim) beat the everloving daylight out of an Avatar of Khaine. Then we have Sanguinius, who throughout the history of 40k has always been detailed as having broken a Bloodthirster's back over his knee (oh, and this wasn't any old Bloodthirster, it was the oldest and strongest Bloodthirster).

So since two Primarchs (one on the higher end and the other on the lower end of Power) owning the faces of Greater Daemons (and strong ones at that), I figured that they were slightly above most of the Greater Daemons (maybe on par with the older ones, and weaker than the oldest).

After all, 100 Grey Knights can take on Angron and a dozen Bloodthirsters. It takes significantly more than 100 of any Space Marine to restrain a Primarch (as all of them proved in Istvaan).


On the note of Lorgar: DAMN but I wished that he'd gotten killed by Corax during their fight on Istvaan. Why couldn't HE have died and Konrad be around trolling everyone with his "FEAR BECAUSE I SAID SO!" attitude?

Mannimarco
28-11-2011, 04:56
Ah. Banishment.
Since there is in no way defined what "banishing" really does, apart from kicking the Demon back in the Warp, and time has no meaning whatsoever in the Warp

An excellent point. How does one get banished for a thousand years and a day (codex: Daemons) to a place where time has no meaning?


Another quick question:
Primarchs in the background were always shown as being stronger than Greater Daemons (Fulgrim defeating an Avatar of Khaine (even if he DID get his but handed to him), Sanguinius defeating Khabanda during the siege of Terra). Would this mean that the Chaos Primarchs elevated to greater daemons would be the premier servants of the Chaos Gods (purely in terms of power level)?

In terms of raw power we have little to go on as the primarchs havnt done a whole lot since they ascended. Angron and his retinue wiped out a company of GK whereas Morty got punked by the mary sue fluff abomination that is Drago. I believe Magnus tried to manifest and got a spear chucked at him. We know of a couple of higher up Daemons Lords who have achieved things the primarchs havnt such as An'ggrath who has destroyed worlds before they manage to put him down.

Codex: Daemons says the daemon princes (not primarchs) often act as lieutenants to the greater daemons although IIRC (cant remember the source for this one) they make better generals as they still have an understanding of the material world where the greater daemon does not. Eventually daemon princes tend to forget about the little things they cared about before they ascended though.

Nazguire
28-11-2011, 12:04
I try and view the Chaos Primarchs as the favoured servants of Chaos but, like all Chaos daemon things, have the inherent weaknesses that go with it.

In Battle of the Fang, Magnus stomped through the Fang with no problems, and was in a weaker form than what he would have been if he was 'physically' (as in not having to possess someone to appear, due to the distance) there.

Angron and his 12 Bloodthirsters dominated all 100 Grey Knight Terminators at Armageddon, and only got put down cause as a daemon, he still has those banishment weaknesses. If he was Angron in the flesh, he more than likely would have stomped the Grey Knights.

Korraz
28-11-2011, 12:55
Don't forget that "100 GK and the Grandmaster sacrificing their lives to banish Angron and his buddies" was Pre Ward. Considering how the GK's powerlevel went over 9000 now, I don't think we can use that incident as a measure now.

Denny
28-11-2011, 13:07
I figured that the Primarchs could at least fight evenly with them. After all, Fulgrim (yes, pretentious pretty boy Fulgrim) beat the everloving daylight out of an Avatar of Khaine. Then we have Sanguinius, who throughout the history of 40k has always been detailed as having broken a Bloodthirster's back over his knee.

Sadly beating up an Avatar can no longer be considered a mighty feat; everyone is doing it these days. :shifty:

The Bloodthirster victory was epic . . . except I believe this was the second time the two of them fought and on the first occasion Sanguinius got well and truly pwned (the subsequent retaliation by the Blood Angels forces could *possibly* be considered the beginnings of the Red Thirst).

Forsworn
28-11-2011, 14:43
An excellent point. How does one get banished for a thousand years and a day (codex: Daemons) to a place where time has no meaning?

I've always considered that it meant a thousand years in the materium. The daemon may perceive only a few days/hours/moments to pass, but in the material realm the full time of the banishment occurs That's why we have Chaos Marines from the Heresy (they spend time in the warp), but they are forgotten in the material realm because of how much time has passed there. My 2 cents on that subject.


In terms of raw power we have little to go on as the primarchs havnt done a whole lot since they ascended. Angron and his retinue wiped out a company of GK whereas Morty got punked by the mary sue fluff abomination that is Drago. I believe Magnus tried to manifest and got a spear chucked at him. We know of a couple of higher up Daemons Lords who have achieved things the primarchs havnt such as An'ggrath who has destroyed worlds before they manage to put him down.

While I <3 the Grey Knights, I hate Draigo and Mordrak (or as I call them "really?" and "Nega Ghostbuster?"). We shall not speak of them. I DO believe that the set of Angron/Bloodthirsters should work a little. They managed to wipe out a full brotherhood of Grey Knights (only 3 survived). That'd put him at a VERY high power level. On An'ggrath, I wonder if, perhaps, we shouldn't consider so much what they did, but what took them down (and the circumstances). After all, if a Daemon fights against a Grey Knight and wins, then gets banished by a las shot to the head, it was the GK that did the heavy lifting, not the guardsmen. I read Codex: Daemons (the 40k one) a while ago, so I'd have to go through it again.


Codex: Daemons says the daemon princes (not primarchs) often act as lieutenants to the greater daemons although IIRC (cant remember the source for this one) they make better generals as they still have an understanding of the material world where the greater daemon does not. Eventually daemon princes tend to forget about the little things they cared about before they ascended though.
So we technically don't know. The thing is that a normal daemon prince comes from either a powerful mortal or a CSM. During the Horus Heresy books, we see time and again that a Primarch is several orders of magnitude above a Space marine. You have to wonder if this doesn't affect how powerful they become. Angron, after all, had a LOT of Greater Daemons serving him. Heck, his bodyguard was a dozen Bloodthirsters. Maybe this gives a clue about his power? They certainly wouldn't have served someone weaker/less bloodthirsty than themselves. Maybe we can rank a Daemon Primarch above your average Greater Daemon (weaker than the older/more powerful ones?

Korraz
28-11-2011, 14:58
I've always considered that it meant a thousand years in the materium. The daemon may perceive only a few days/hours/moments to pass, but in the material realm the full time of the banishment occurs That's why we have Chaos Marines from the Heresy (they spend time in the warp), but they are forgotten in the material realm because of how much time has passed there. My 2 cents on that subject.


The problem is, that it can't work this way. It would mean that the Warp would have the same timeline as the Materium. It doesn't. The same demon can turn up several times at the same time in the Real World. Ships lost in the Warp return thousands of years before they got lost. Battles are fought against future and past selves. There is no logic or rules behind the Warp.

Oakwolf
28-11-2011, 15:31
As far as i am concerned, there's never been a clear cut on how long a banishment lasts.

The main difficulties for a deamon in the materium are:

a) find a way to enter (Summon, breach of reality or possession)
b) gather enough energy to remain in the world for any lenght of time.

So if someone banishes the demon, it must restart the whole process over, and that's not easy at all. For mortals, this often means that the demon will not return there for at least a lifetime (so legends might guess at thousands of years), but there's no rules, as mentionned.

The same demon could be re-summoned tomorrow...but only if all the required elements are re-united again.

Spider-pope
28-11-2011, 18:08
An excellent point. How does one get banished for a thousand years and a day (codex: Daemons) to a place where time has no meaning?


A daemon is banished for a thousand years and a day. Its just not necessarily the thousand years and a day following the banishment in the material world. It could be a thousand years before the Grey Knights were first aware of it manifesting, or it could be a thousand years several millennia later and it uses the odd temporal peculiarities of the warp to manifest again the following tuesday.

Korraz
28-11-2011, 19:45
I like that thinking. It could also be banished on 365 001 different worlds for a single day. :D

Sami
28-11-2011, 19:52
The Bloodthirster victory was epic . . . except I believe this was the second time the two of them fought and on the first occasion Sanguinius got well and truly pwned (the subsequent retaliation by the Blood Angels forces could *possibly* be considered the beginnings of the Red Thirst).

Correct. First meeting the Bloodthirster broke Sang's legs and possibly triggered the Black Rage (oh look, another legion of berserkers...) in the Blood Angels. Second encounter, Sang broke the daemon's back (do remember that daemons are incorporeal so breaking its back would have no lasting effect...).

The bloodthirster was the most powerful at the time, but I haven't read anywhere that it was always this way. An'ggrath is currently Khorne's favoured greater daemon, and prior to that it was Skarbrand before he was tricked (lol) by Tzeentch into attacking Khorne.