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Jupitor
28-11-2011, 11:47
Hi all

I was wondering what others felt were the" top " 3 tier army's in 8th Ed

My 2 cents

Daemons of chaos

Skaven

Ogre kingdoms

Memnos
28-11-2011, 11:50
Can you clarify why you think that? Much better to start a discussion of why you consider something.

I'm simply surprised you put Ogre Kingdoms down. It's a well-balanced book.

bildo
28-11-2011, 11:52
daemons i dont think anyone will argue with. as for the 2 other, it tends to be up for discussion. if we assume all out winning is the aim, then chaos warriors are probably included. then dark elves.

the_slosh
28-11-2011, 11:56
Wood elves, Bretonnia and Beastmen! :angel:

Oogie boogie boss
28-11-2011, 12:16
Skaven, Dark Elves and WoC, if we're talking armies than can build the hardest or most difficult lists. And not necessarily in that order. Also, does anyone else think it's odd that almost all of the armies that come to mind when thinking about what's hardest are 'evil' armies?

stonegiant
28-11-2011, 12:25
Daemons & Dark Elves are nasty. In my opinion.

reddevil18
28-11-2011, 12:26
Woc are a very powerful army and thats without needing to go for 3+ ward chosen.
Skaven would be another just because there so versitile
Third id go for either demons or dark elves.

Jupitor
28-11-2011, 12:28
Fair point memnos

I could have phrased my question better

I was wondering what 3 army's you feel are the "best" more what are first 3 that pop into your head then a in-depth analysis.

Chaos daemons

Skaven

And Ogers

Where the 3 what poped into my head though I must admit warriors of chaos were lurking around in there as well :)

I am in no way suggesting any are over powered/unbalanced

Mr. Ultra
28-11-2011, 12:34
The best army is my army, because it's mine.

Brother Haephestus
28-11-2011, 12:46
I haven't had the opportunity to writhe under the taloned claws of the Skaven yet, but my understanding is they are quite vile (ie really good.)

I don't play them, but I've long admired WoC's ability to pretty much adapt to anything. In a fixed-list environment they may be a bit more challenging to field, but pretty much any WoC player should be able to prepare a rock-hard army designed to take advantage of all your weaknesses and not cater to your strengths.

I've long-heard the definition of cheese was Dark Elves and Occam's Mindrazor, but I haven't had a chance to put this into practice yet (rubs hands - deeply chuckles).

I will say, however, that I've been soundly pounded by High Elves lately, and not even cheesy ones. That's a pretty solid army.

The Low King
28-11-2011, 16:22
Best armies....Dwarfs then woodelfs then lizardmen..thats why i chose to collect them

Strongest armies (so what the OP meant :D ) Daemons, Skaven, Dark elves (in no paticular order)

tmarichards
28-11-2011, 16:30
Dark Elves, Lizards and Skaven take it for me. Daemons and VC are also right up, but I think they just get pipped to the post.

boli
28-11-2011, 16:46
In my experiance the best armies are ones which have depth; both in the army book as well as on the field. Armies which are very "one trick" or "predictable" can be defeated if you know what you are up against.

That is essentially why skaven *can* be so powerful... they are at their core unpredictable in their damage output but are able to have a stability in their defence through sheer numbers.

In that line of thought I would say that Empire have *potentially* the best army due the sheer varity of troops and tactics they can use. Unfortunatly this has not always been true in competitions as many rules in the game have a tendancy to favour one sort of play over others.

Spiney Norman
28-11-2011, 17:07
Hi all

I was wondering what others felt were the" top " 3 tier army's in 8th Ed

My 2 cents

Daemons of chaos

Skaven

Ogre kingdoms

Close, replace Ogre kingdoms with Dark Elves and you're there. DE, DoC and Skaven are way out in front, all the other armies are pretty level except for Wood elves who are just bad, bad, bad

Duke Ramulots
28-11-2011, 17:09
WoC are up there with DoC and Skaven for how bad someone can be at warhammering and still win.

tmarichards
28-11-2011, 17:14
Mindrazor and lots of attacks will do that... trust me, I've been doing it for months now and I'm terrible at Warhammer :)

zak
28-11-2011, 17:27
The best three army books are Tomb Kings, Orcs and Ogres. They are balanced and fun to play. The most abusable are Dark Elves, Deamons and Skaven with WoC a close fourth.

Memnos
28-11-2011, 17:52
Ah! I see.

The first three armies that pop in to my head are:

Napoleon's army, the Army of Helaman and the Canadian army.

tezdal
28-11-2011, 17:54
Bretonnia, Grey Knights, and Skaven

TheOneHawk
28-11-2011, 18:06
Third, DoC: bloodletter hordes with heralds of Khorne, backed by a Tzeentch loremaster. Unbreakable, ridiculous combat, totally underpriced and crazy good magic.

Second, DE: lemme just throw 13 dice at mindrazor on my horde that gets 60+ high WS attacks and hatred.

First, Skaven: have the best horde infantry in the game, top three magic in the game, top three shooting in the game, and the easiest access to Ld10 of anyone.

Snake1311
28-11-2011, 18:50
I don't really understand why WoC? The chosen deathstar is incredibly dirty,but thats about it - and almost all common army lists can tie it up with something or kite it around. Double hellcannon is also annoying but there's worse out there.

I'd say my top three are:

3) Dark Elves
- these guys are just good all round, with a few OP mechanics, and no big glaring weaknesses (they are not as squishy for thir cost as some make it seem).

2) Skaven
- Stupidly overpowered Abomb and rares in general, slaves' retarded interaction with steadfast, and some more minor broken nuisances like a very impressive magic lore, stormbanner, and deathrocket. Each bit separately isn't that much of a dealbreaker since this army DOES have some obvious weaknesses, but put together its just too much.

1) Vampires
-a metagame where the deathstar is the king of stupid tactics, and VC are kings of the deathstar - which is the only playstyle they use, because nothing else works. Every VC army has 70% of its points invested in one uit and the heroes inside, and that unit is always WS 6 or 7 with regen and maybe other goodies; and spam vanhels forever until it gets to where it wants to.


Hey look at that, Deamons didnt make my top 3 :)

russellmoo
28-11-2011, 18:57
The most powerful armies-

Dark elves-

Demons=

Skaven/Empire-

WoC, Lizardmen, and High elves both deserve mention because of certain builds/lists that players can take- dwarves can also be good if you take a certain build-

However, the top 3 armies above not only have certain ridiculously tough builds but they also have several really good builds in addition to one or two kick your *** builds-

Really when looking at the power of an army it comes down to high leadership/unbreakable troops, powerful magic, devastating warmachines/monsters, and lots of attacks per points-

The armies above all have each of these categories well represented-

N810
28-11-2011, 18:58
Deamons,
High Elves, (we allow special characters)
Ogres.


Never had that much dificuility with Dark Elves...

The Low King
28-11-2011, 19:31
- dwarves can also be good if you take a certain build- -

If good you mean middle tier then yep, hardly top tier.



Really when looking at the power of an army it comes down to high leadership/unbreakable troops, powerful magic, devastating warmachines/monsters, and lots of attacks per points-

The armies above all have each of these categories well represented-

you do realise that covers evert army right? no army has all of them but every army has 3 at least

Maoriboy007
28-11-2011, 20:26
1) Vampires
-a metagame where the deathstar is the king of stupid tactics, and VC are kings of the deathstar - which is the only playstyle they use, because nothing else works. Every VC army has 70% of its points invested in one uit and the heroes inside, and that unit is always WS 6 or 7 with regen and maybe other goodies; and spam vanhels forever until it gets to where it wants to.Meh, negate thier 125 point banner with a 10 point one.
Generally a VC army is about as good as its magic phase these days, which is fairly random. For a not unconsiderable price they can boost it with MotBA but they give up on magical diversity and/or combat ability.

popisdead
28-11-2011, 23:16
Dark Elves take the cake. Surprised to see Daemons up there, I've never seen them do anything I couldn't handle.

Duke Ramulots
28-11-2011, 23:41
Dark Elves take the cake. Surprised to see Daemons up there, I've never seen them do anything I couldn't handle.

What do dark elves do that you cannot handle?

russellmoo
28-11-2011, 23:44
I just realized that this thread has been discussed several times before- with little consensus- and everyone has a slightly different view and criteria- hence, few people post with any sort of a consensus as to "best army"-

So . . .

I would like to use this thread to establish a criteria as to how the "best" army should be determined and what factors we should look at- if a consensus can be reached as to what "things" make an army good- we can then be a little more objective and scientific in our approach-

Therefore- warseer community- What 7 or less categories should an army be rated on in determining how "good" it is?

I would start by saying that we should include the following-

Ability of the army to hold (i.e. leadership, amount of steadfast, stubborn, unbreakable units)

Points per attacks (this would be a calculation of how many attacks a 10 wide unit can bring to bear, divided by points in that unit- calculated for each unit in the army and then averaged out)

Strength in the magic phase-

Points per damage output of warmachines/shooting

Unit durability- how well does it absorb damage (i.e. is it high toughness, have a ward save, or regen- can it be brought back to life/undeath)

What else should go into the calculation so that we can finally put this argument to rest?

Duke Ramulots
28-11-2011, 23:55
Maybe "what style of army best suits your style of play?"

ftayl5
29-11-2011, 00:15
Skaven are definitely in the top 3.
They have 2pt models that can be LD 10.
Very powerful monsters (HPA)
Powerful infantry (Plague Monks)
Brilliant Magic (13th spell is one of the most complained about in the game)

dimetri1
29-11-2011, 01:39
WoC
DE's
Skaven or Daemons

I had to put down four.

friendlyfire21
29-11-2011, 18:42
Lizardmen have to be in the list daemons maybe if played right WoC are up there and HE just because of always strike first + higher initiative = pain in my orcs butt

Glenn87
29-11-2011, 22:27
Ability of the army to hold (i.e. leadership, amount of steadfast, stubborn, unbreakable units)

Points per attacks (this would be a calculation of how many attacks a 10 wide unit can bring to bear, divided by points in that unit- calculated for each unit in the army and then averaged out)

Strength in the magic phase-

Points per damage output of warmachines/shooting

Unit durability- how well does it absorb damage (i.e. is it high toughness, have a ward save, or regen- can it be brought back to life/undeath)

What else should go into the calculation so that we can finally put this argument to rest?

well, Dark Elves do fit the bill on most of this stuff..
They have high Ld, have stubborn troops (Black Guard, and Khainites within "12 of the Cauldron)

They have units with lots of attacks (Corairs can go up to 4 attacks each, Black Guard have 2 basic)

Their magic phase owns most, thanks to power of darkness

I doubt their shooting needs explenation

the durability is a little bit of a problem, altough the Cauldron can grant a unit a 5+ ward save.



I think you need to take another big thing into account:
how many (good) support units can the army field??
Support units are one of the tactical most needed units, and I have great doubt that an army can win withouth them.

What you put under 'support' unit' can go from Gobbo Wolf Riders, to Shades, to God knows what....

Snake1311
30-11-2011, 00:37
Meh, negate thier 125 point banner with a 10 point one.
Generally a VC army is about as good as its magic phase these days, which is fairly random. For a not unconsiderable price they can boost it with MotBA but they give up on magical diversity and/or combat ability.

MotBA is everywhere really, and the thing about magic isnt true - they only need one Vanhels to go through per phase, and that will happen pretty much regardless of winds.
Flaming does negate the regen, but the VC star can beat up the unit holding it pretty fast - and generally big deathstars don't carry it because of its interaction with lone heroes with dragonhelms.
.

Im still surprised at the number of WoC coming up - can everyone who selects them please expand on why? They are certainly annoyingly strong in CC, but as an army overall they can be dealt with in relatively straightforward ways.

HE are a low-tierer as soon as Teclis and the book of hoeth get banned, which are almost always the first things to be comped out. Their eagles are awesome, and thats about it - everything else is very expensive and very fragile.
.

I like russellmoo's critera idea, because even though an army is more than the sum of its parts (and also the weighting of those criteria will be different), its still good to be using a framework to justify your opinions. I don't know how you arrived at exactly 7 things, but since its your idea I'll play along :P :

1) Mobility - what can the army do in the movement phase, their ability to redeploy and outmanouver the opponent
2) Magic - what can the army do with the winds of magic dice
3) Antimagic - what can the army do to prevent the opponent from molesting them with magic :P
4) Shooting - this is mostly warmachines since they do the important stuff; but since this is the least important of the 4 phases it only gets one criterium for everythign
5) Combat - self-explanatory, can the army beat up other people with an equvalent-ish amount of points
6) Chaff - the existance and efficiency of throwaway support units like goblin chariots, harpies, and warhounds
7) Reliability - Ld values, unstable/undead, random stuff like animocity (spellcheck?)

I'd say there is also a 8) Synnergy - how the previous bits come together - this is higher in some armies than in others, but we'll file it under advanced and leave it for now.

So, using this framework and a relative score from 1-10, I will rate my army, dwarfs:

1) Mobility - 2. Would be 1, but TK are now a contender for slowest army, and we do have some tricks like the Anvil and Miners. Still abysmal though.
2) Magic - 1. Worst in the game, because we don't have any.
3) Antimagic - 9. I'd actually argue that Empire and HE are better in some aspects due to point efficiency; but a 10 could be argued, we don't let spells though much.
4) Shooting - 10. Troop-based shooting is actually kinda meh, but awesome warmachines make up for it; its definitely our 'thing'
5) Combat - 5. Just above average, about half the armies can beat us up for points; the -1 to flee and pursue is a massive drawback though.
6) Chaff - 1. Essentially non-existant. Can field dragonslayers (slow) or Gyrocopter (expensive) but neither really fits the bill.
7) Reliability - 8. Probably the only thing better Ld-wise is DoC since they never break or panic, whereas we do on rare occasions. Reliance on warmachines means misfires though.

And that gives us a total of 36/70, which is very slightly above average, and generally true for the army. I'd argue its slightly generous (I'd personally give dwarfs 30ish out of 70 if asked for an overall), but that might be because of the criteria I selected, namely antimagic being a separate thing. Anyway, on this occasion the framework seems to work :)

H33D
30-11-2011, 02:50
1. Dwarfs
2. Skaven
3. Dark Elves

Glenn87
30-11-2011, 07:13
Alright, i'll do DE's


1) Mobility - with a move of 5 (over average), and scouts/harpies who move around enemy lines, I'm giving an 8. Don't think any army except maybe Brets have better movement values. en par with other elves and Skaven.
2) Magic - 9, because the ability to throw all dice alone is great. Add power of darkness, and you've got one hell of a magic phase. I think only the Slann might be better at it, or possibly Greater Deamons of Tzeentch. But by the time you get those points....
3) Antimagic - 6, I wanted to give a 5, because they're average. They don't have extra dice, no +1 to dispel, so right in the middle. added 1 because the Seal of Ghrond, it edges some dispel phases in my advantage
4) Shooting - 7, was thinking of 8, but both Skaven and Dwarfs outclass us here. I do think DE Shooting (not just from Warmachines) is very destructive (2 shots per model).
5) Combat - 9, can't think of a SINGLE army except Chaos (WoC) that is better at combat, then magic-supported DE's...re-rolls to hit, supported by shadow buffs/debuffs, and you've got one hell of a combat army. Still doubting between DE's and Deamons for second spot (after WoC) here, but since deamons cost alot of points, I think point-wise, DE's are the better one.
6) Chaff - 8, was going for 7, but Shades are too good for what they do, add harpies, and sometimes Dark Riders, and that's support!
7) Reliability - 8, just like their Ld. I think Dwarfs and the un-runnable units are above them (undead, deamons), but Ld8 on you'r basic guys...doesn't get any better then that. Add Stubborn (Khainite Cauldron, Black Guards).

So that's a total of 55/70, wich seems a little low seeing how most people rate them among the top armies (wich they are!).
Well, I did try not to give them TO many points, but still.

Jal
30-11-2011, 09:45
O+G

1) Mobility: 6. Most troops are M4, but with access to 4 different cavelry units, lots of high move troops (Trolls, Giants, Spiders of all types), some large threat range troops (Wolf Chariots etc), Orc armies can be reasonably mobile.
2) Magic: 7. Access to 2 very balanced lores, with potential for massive damage, some great augments/buffs and some very effective snipes. Not as powerful as Shadow/Life, but very very decent spell lists all the same.
3) Anti-magic: 5. About average, but due to the cheapness of Wizards, can spam level 1s for more channels
4) Shooting: 6. Lots of war machines. Doom Divers are outstanding, and big units of goblin archers (with spider banner) can really put the hurt on things.
5) Combat: 7. Lots of very solid troops in combat (Black Orcs, Savage Orc Big Uns, Trolls, Squig Herds etc), and ability to pick large steadfast block (goblins of all types). Elite Orc infantry throwout masses of high strength attacks, and are failry cheap to boot.
6) Chaff: 9. No army should ever out-chaff you. Units of fast cavelry, single trolls, Manglers, single chariots, pump wagons and squig hoppers. The chaff is pretty decent too.
7) Reliability: 2. Low ld means you much bubble. Animosity brings this right down. This would be "1" if it wasn't for the fact that many gamers take Black Orc bigbosses to limit animosity.

total: 42. Seems about right for a solid, balanced army

Total:

RandomSpecific
30-11-2011, 10:27
eh i see probs with this. experiences differ with the same armies let alone everyones own personal build with their own personal opinion thrown in. if someone plays a casual list and has great success with it in his enviroment hes going to go for high marks and vica versa.

Its always interesting to get some in depth thought behind things and dont get me wrong keep posting em its interesting) but if were after the best army, as in the top dog then perhaps a different approach would be better.

how about, take the top 3 common armies. DE, Skavern and probably daemons (although theres differing opinions but...) and agree on the most competative build humanly possible, with no thought to anything but WaaC and consider the match ups.

perhaps some considerations that the three knew who their opponents were should be given, but i spose not.

be interesting to have the three top armies top lists in a same thread comparison and would help place the top ones at the same time.

Tayrod
30-11-2011, 11:51
High Elves

1) Mobility - As with DE, HE gets an 8
2) Magic - 10 - All lores, Book of Hoeth, special characthers, etc, etc
3) Antimagic - 10 - + to dispel, banner of the world dragon.
4) Shooting - 6, not really all that bad, but way worse then DE.
5) Combat - 9 - though, if DE deserves a 9, HE must surely deserve a 10. Access to all lores gives great boost spells, Speed of Asuryan grants almost always re-rolls to hit, Swordmasters in close combat are dreaded. On a point-by-point basis, they might get pulled down by marauders wielding GWs though.
6) Chaff - 8, Eagles, Eagles, Eagles! The tiranoc chariot is also quiet cheap for what it does.
7) Reliability - 8. Since most players will have use an Archmage, General LD ship bubble is often reduced to 9, this pulls them down a bit.

Grand total: 59/70

Edit: Should be something about survivability though

Pulstar
30-11-2011, 12:36
High Elves

1) Mobility - As with DE, HE gets an 8
2) Magic - 10 - All lores, Book of Hoeth, special characthers, etc, etc
3) Antimagic - 10 - + to dispel, banner of the world dragon.
4) Shooting - 6, not really all that bad, but way worse then DE.
5) Combat - 9 - though, if DE deserves a 9, HE must surely deserve a 10. Access to all lores gives great boost spells, Speed of Asuryan grants almost always re-rolls to hit, Swordmasters in close combat are dreaded. On a point-by-point basis, they might get pulled down by marauders wielding GWs though.
6) Chaff - 8, Eagles, Eagles, Eagles! The tiranoc chariot is also quiet cheap for what it does.
7) Reliability - 8. Since most players will have use an Archmage, General LD ship bubble is often reduced to 9, this pulls them down a bit.

Grand total: 59/70

Edit: Should be something about survivability though

I have different values for High Elves

1) Mobility - 6. Base move 5 is nice, but our scouts/fast cav is overpriced.
2) Magic - 10 if Teclis\BoH are allowed, 8 otherwise. So 8....
3) Antimagic - 8. Dwarf/Empire DD spam is better.
4) Shooting - 4. We have shooting, but it's not good without magic.
5) Combat - 7. ASF is great, but outnumbered T3 stinks.
6) Chaff - 5. Eagles and nothing else.
7) Reliability - 6. We do have good leadership, but only as good as our magic phase will let us be. That and we reliably lose to larger combat units.

So 44/70.

So much of this would depend in your build, your opponent and the number of dice you get in your magic phase.

N810
30-11-2011, 14:28
Lizardmen

1) Mobility - 4. Base move 4 is slow, but our and cav is overpriced at least skink units are faster.
2) Magic - 9. Slan are great if you spend 450 points on them, other wize we are stuck with l2 skink priest.
3) Antimagic - 7. prety good, but most of it has a specific range to work.
4) Shooting - 3. Effect only at very short range 6"-12"
5) Combat - 6. In 1 for most of the army, so combat is more of a grind than a slaughter, shinks should mostly avoid combat.
6) Chaff - 7. Skinks, skinks, and more skinks. Poison shots are good.
7) Reliability - 7. Saurus units are very reliable, Skinks reliably run away.

So 43/70.

CommissarSean
30-11-2011, 14:30
Wood elves, Bretonnia and Beastmen! :angel:

You laugh but Beasts came first in the last Gauntlet i was at :D

WarmbloodedLizard
30-11-2011, 14:44
I'd say the contenders are DE, Skaven, LM, DoC, WoC (and probably VC). (some other armies may also be good but are definitely not in the top 3)

I don't know which are in the top 3, but I'd say DE > Skaven > ???.

Phazael
30-11-2011, 16:23
There is no contest if you look strictly at battle points over the last two years. Dark Elves are king, with Skaven and Lizards being the rest of the god tier of fantasy.

Dark Elves have a cheap answer for any issue that always fits into their take all comers lists and less of the oddball matchup issues that the other two armies have, making them ultimately the most powerful army in fantasy. The best magic phase, the best monster, and the best light infantry all fit easily into a list with tons of leftover points for other fun stuff. They arguably have one of the better light shooting elements in all of fantasy, as well.

Skaven can do all sorts of crazy stuff, but ultimately are powerful just for being able to slap lots of unbreakable chaffe in front of a pile of undercosted war machines, with flanks protected by the second best monsters in the game. Their main issues are having issues with a couple of bizarre matchups (Ogres, Beastmen) and being really succeptible to a round of bad dice. Their army, like the Dark Elves, can do it all, though.

Lizardmen have an amazing magic phase and some of the best core infantry in the game. Their light shooting is also the best, thanks to skinks and salamanders. Like the Skaven, they have some weird matchup issues and they are also very succeptible to some of the most common kill spells in the game (PSun, Pit) making the magic phase the most critical in the game to them. Properly build, though, Lizardmen are nearly invulnerable to most armies.

Anyone still saying Daemons or VC needs to get in step with the times. Those books have not been dominant since Skaven took over in 7th and tournament results reflect that.

vorthrax
30-11-2011, 16:50
There is no contest if you look strictly at battle points over the last two years. Dark Elves are king, with Skaven and Lizards being the rest of the god tier of fantasy.

Dark Elves have a cheap answer for any issue that always fits into their take all comers lists and less of the oddball matchup issues that the other two armies have, making them ultimately the most powerful army in fantasy. The best magic phase, the best monster, and the best light infantry all fit easily into a list with tons of leftover points for other fun stuff. They arguably have one of the better light shooting elements in all of fantasy, as well.

Skaven can do all sorts of crazy stuff, but ultimately are powerful just for being able to slap lots of unbreakable chaffe in front of a pile of undercosted war machines, with flanks protected by the second best monsters in the game. Their main issues are having issues with a couple of bizarre matchups (Ogres, Beastmen) and being really succeptible to a round of bad dice. Their army, like the Dark Elves, can do it all, though.

Lizardmen have an amazing magic phase and some of the best core infantry in the game. Their light shooting is also the best, thanks to skinks and salamanders. Like the Skaven, they have some weird matchup issues and they are also very succeptible to some of the most common kill spells in the game (PSun, Pit) making the magic phase the most critical in the game to them. Properly build, though, Lizardmen are nearly invulnerable to most armies.

Anyone still saying Daemons or VC needs to get in step with the times. Those books have not been dominant since Skaven took over in 7th and tournament results reflect that.

This would be my list exactly, although I'm not sure what order I'd put them in. In my opinion, there's good argument for each of them to be the very top army.

Gradek
30-11-2011, 18:25
The best way to rank would be to say take those criteria posted earlier and then rank each army against the rest (instead of just on say a 10pt scale). And to do the rankings you would want to assume a take all comers list at a very competitive tournament with no comps (ie full btb rules). With 1 being the best and 15 the worst. The army with the lowest score wins.

Danny_D14
30-11-2011, 18:29
There is no contest if you look strictly at battle points over the last two years. Dark Elves are king, with Skaven and Lizards being the rest of the god tier of fantasy.

Dark Elves have a cheap answer for any issue that always fits into their take all comers lists and less of the oddball matchup issues that the other two armies have, making them ultimately the most powerful army in fantasy. The best magic phase, the best monster, and the best light infantry all fit easily into a list with tons of leftover points for other fun stuff. They arguably have one of the better light shooting elements in all of fantasy, as well.

Skaven can do all sorts of crazy stuff, but ultimately are powerful just for being able to slap lots of unbreakable chaffe in front of a pile of undercosted war machines, with flanks protected by the second best monsters in the game. Their main issues are having issues with a couple of bizarre matchups (Ogres, Beastmen) and being really succeptible to a round of bad dice. Their army, like the Dark Elves, can do it all, though.

Lizardmen have an amazing magic phase and some of the best core infantry in the game. Their light shooting is also the best, thanks to skinks and salamanders. Like the Skaven, they have some weird matchup issues and they are also very succeptible to some of the most common kill spells in the game (PSun, Pit) making the magic phase the most critical in the game to them. Properly build, though, Lizardmen are nearly invulnerable to most armies.

Anyone still saying Daemons or VC needs to get in step with the times. Those books have not been dominant since Skaven took over in 7th and tournament results reflect that.

I feel this is a really good sum up and if slightly altered a very good sales pitch :)

russellmoo
30-11-2011, 18:59
To answer the question of "Why 7?" It was just a good number to keep the number of categories in check- if you have too many categories it becomes very difficult to do the comparison and the math- if you use too few than you don't get an accurate comparison-

So 7 was arbitrary but I didn't want to try and crunch the numbers with more categories than that-

I also agree that a comparison is a little problematic as some armies are better against other armies-

For example- I have no problem taking my Skaven up against HE, but my O&G find it tough going- whereas, against Lizardmen my Skaven have a hard time, but my O&G can crush them-

So- right now I am crunching some numbers using excel- and scoring various units- based off of several categories- so far it seems promising as those units which you would think should get high scores are, and those that you would tend to think would get low scores are- but it still needs some refining-

Snake1311
01-12-2011, 01:01
Anyone still saying Daemons or VC needs to get in step with the times. Those books have not been dominant since Skaven took over in 7th and tournament results reflect that.

YOU should step up with the times; after some initial confusion immediately after the release of 8th where VC and DoC could dominate everything without any effort the two armies dropped off - but then players adapted and for the last few months they have been finishing in top spots with alarming consistency.

Where are you getting your data from?
.

I'm kind of proud to see my categories catching on so quickly, but I have to admit they do seem to be somewhat overestimating High Elves (probably for the same reason as dwarfs - antimagic being a separate entry). Although I think HE players themselves are severly overestimating their own scores (because things like squishiness should be reflected in the combat score for example.
Really, my overall rating for HE would be Mob (8), Mag (10), Antimag (10), Shooting (2 (yes 2, its only really archers / RBTs and the former are overpriced), Combat (5 (can easily whale on elites but very vulnerable to cheap units), Chaff 5 (eagles are aweosme, rest is overpriced), Reliability (7) - for a Total of 37, only above average because of the 20 pts in Magic/Antimagic.

vinny t
01-12-2011, 01:53
I think that lizardmen can't really be in the top 3 due to their cripplingly low initiative. It makes their only combat units very sucepptible to PoS and purple sun. The only things that may push lizards over the top are a very solid magic phase and excellent low strength shooting (particularly Salamanders).

I agree with Skaven, Dark Elves, Daemons, and Warriors being in the top

Souba
01-12-2011, 03:26
im pretty new to whfb and use my 40k chaos daemons army now also in whfb, im new to the rules etc and curious why they have such a high trend in the "best army" list. anyone care to explain ?

russellmoo
01-12-2011, 06:01
Unlike in 40k where everyone has an invulnerable save- in WHFB a 5++ save to every wound taken is very good to have-

Also, being very good in CC, and having good magic make for a good fantasy army- this means- that where demons are a little weak in 40k- in fantasy they do much better-

vcassano
01-12-2011, 13:29
I'll have a go for Warriors of Chaos, just because they are the army I understand best.

1) Mobility - 4. Low basic movement (Not quite Dwarven, thankfully!), knights and hounds are fast but you will be heavily reliant on M4 infantry which isn't fantastic.

2) Magic - 6 Have some tasty magic items (Puppet and Third Eye) and Gateway is obviously strong. However Lore of Tzeentch is a mixed bag and quite overrated. Slaanesh is mediocre and situational while Nurgle is surprisingly good with cheap casting values and decent effects. Our main problem comes from Level 2s having limited lore access - Fire is a solid lore but not game-winning and Death does what you are already good at - killing characters. Heavens is absolutely brilliant, covering your weaknesses brilliantly - long range shooting and rerolls - but requires a Level 4. Shadow is always nice for the debuffs but the lack of rerolls and abundance of high S attacks make Mindrazor far less effective than on Elves.

3) Antimagic - 5. Not great - the Puppet is an excellent miscast abuser but the spell is already through by then.

4) Shooting - 4. The Hellcannon is alright, though mostly for the panic checks. It is unreliable and fairly overrated when you compare actual output vs. potential damage. I still like it though. We don't have much else!

5) Combat - 10. High weapon skill, strength, initiative and decent attacks. We only really lack the rerolls of the High/Dark Elves.

6) Chaff - 5. Marauder horsemen are too expensive. Hounds are great but low-leadership. No flying chaff!

7) Reliability - 7. Surprisingly low leadership is a chronic weakness - losing combat is not something we do well (unlike Skaven, for example) due to this and the relatively high points cost of our models. However our high combat potential, heavy armour and access to big ward saves counteracts this somewhat.

So 41/70.

Despite this I do feel we are pretty damn strong - we are just lacking in certain areas. If the categories were different we could score much higher.

N810
01-12-2011, 13:54
Mostly because Deamons are all strenght and no weakness. :p

Phazael
01-12-2011, 16:49
You mean aside from T3 on the vast majority of the army, no armor saves, no lord casters that can be hid in units, no ability to flee, and no access to the main rulebook magic items? They have plenty of weaknesses and most experienced tournament players know them well. In fact, in todays war machine happy environment, they might as well not even have a lord slot in the army book. Not saying they are not a strong army, but realistically in most tournament environments (where Kairos is banned) they rarely score high in the battle points. I played in seven GTs this past year and Daemons won zero generalship awards and only one overall in any of those events. In fact, I actually did better with Bretts than when I took Daemons, tabling the DoC players I faced on a regular basis. This includes events in South Cali, Arizona, Baltimore, and Vegas, so I am not talking about just one area. Its been this way ever since Skaven and DE took over the metagame late in 7th edition, really.

VC actually have it worse right now, due to a steadfast mechanic that does not bennefit them and a bunch of core troops that cannot fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Some good VC players have been doing descently enough with Double Gueist and cavalry deathstars, but they have not been winning any major events, at least in the US. I think I saw all of one VC army in the last two years of hardboys? They lack the DoCs weakness to light shooting and have better magic, but the "ghouls or nothing" core situation really hurts them.

Lizarmen having low Ini is a serious weakness, but as most armies are rocking a Light Slaan, its not as big a deal for them as, say, Ogres or Dwarves. Plus, Becalming and Cupped Hands pretty much cripple the opponent's magic offense. Of what I feel to be the top three armies, I consider them the most beatable, but some armies just cannot stop them at all. Really, Dark Elves are the only army I have beaten them consistantly with (or been defeated by when playing LM).

Anyhow, in keeping with the OPs scoring system:
Dark Elves:
1) Mobility - 10 No army dominates the movement phase like DE do, with M5 basic infantry, Dark Riders, Harpies, and unkillable Peg Lords.
2) Magic - 10 Sac Dagger and access to Shadow already make them godly. The ability to grab the entire pool and push Occums on the turn they want it is what makes them the best.
3) Antimagic - 7 Ring of Hotek on a Peg is still really annoying and the Seal of Grond is a good item thats not Arcane, but basically mostly average here.
4) Shooting - 8 Only Lizardmen have better light shooting. Lack or War Machines limits some of their options, but spamming repeaters will win you a lot of games and its easy to do.
5) Combat - 9 Second to Chaos Warrios, only. Everyone has a good statline and double hydra will win entire games all on its own. Witch Elves are the best light infantry in the game and become ungodly disgusting with Mind Razor and a Cauldron.
6) Chaff - 10 Harpies are the best chaffe in the game for their points and are core.
7) Reliability - 10 Solid leadership all over the place and tons of ItP options. Toughness 3 is the only drawback this army has in this department.
So 64/70.

Skaven:
1) Mobility - 6 Above average, but most of their fast moving units are random.
2) Magic - 8 The 13th is a hard counter to a lot of things out there and most of the magic is very good, but against specific armies its a non factor.
3) Antimagic - 5 Average here.
4) Shooting - 10 A dizzyign array of war machines and shooting options, all generally massively undercosted for what they do.
5) Combat - 7 Skaven are easily beaten in combat, but it almost never matters, because anything that is not outright unbreakable is probably Stubborn Ld10 and there are so many rats that your shot up units will struggle to kill them all. The Abomb has a few matchups where it is weak, but both it and the Wheel will outright win games against many armies.
6) Chaff - 8 Super Cheap rat packs and slinger guys are really awesome for their cost, but this is tempered by suspect leadership.
7) Reliability - 9 It is possible to make an entire army that is either unbreakable or steadfast 10, but occasionally things will randomly go bad for Skaven, due to the 5 million charts they roll on all the time.
So 53/70.

Lizard Men:
1) Mobility - 6 Unless you are running the Skink Krox and Steg Stampeed, you are average. Skirmishers in abundance mitigate this somewhat.
2) Magic - 9 The Slaan is the wizard every army wishes they had. The only issue is that its hard to make him mobile and he cannot push a critical spell through in the same manner a DE wizard can. Also, Lizardmen tend to be more dependent on magic than DE or Skaven.
3) Antimagic - 10 Becalming, Cupped Hands, and Cube of Darkness will outright shut down any enemy magic you actually care about, except for DE magic.
4) Shooting - 8 The best light shooters in the game, with Skinks and Salamanders, but they lack any sort of credible war machine presence. No one is better at chewing up massive amounts of light infantry, however.
5) Combat - 7 Saurus are the most cost effective core infantry unit in the game, but they often need help in the magic phase. Their main weakness is a lack of a strong hard hitter unit, outside of Stegadons.
6) Chaff - 8 Skinks are awesome, but a tad slow and not a credible combat threat like harpies or rat packs are.
7) Reliability - 9 Cold Blooded is an awesome rule for smoothing out the bell curve, but this army tends to have to hover around the Slaan.
So 57/70.

And my precious Daemons:
Daemons:
1) Mobility - 8 While they lack anything like Dark Riders or Peg Lords, the basic infantry and chaffe for Daemons all move very quickly. When they cannot outright control the movement phase, Siren can take over.
2) Magic - 8 Loremaster access to all the book lores is very good, but you are usually stuck relying on L2s in the magic phase, which is problematic.
3) Antimagic - 6 Aside from being able to take multiple scrolls, nothing remarkable here.
4) Shooting - 7 Flamers are arguably the best shooting unit in the game, if not one of the best units. Unfortunately, there are only two units in an army and you do not get any heavy shooting.
5) Combat - 7 Daemonettes are strong light infantry chewers and Bloodletters are very good, but against any sort of serious combat unit, like Warriors, Saurus, Ogres, or Witch Elves, you get mopped by like points. The army also has some issues dealing with high toughness enemies and chariots.
6) Chaff - 9 Daemons are second only to Dark Elves and Ogres when it comes to chaffe. Furies and single fiends are insanely cheap and fast. Nurglings are absurdly good harrassment. Ten man throw away Daemon units are still a pain in the butt for people. The only issue here is the inability to flee limits your options for setting traps to abusing Siren.
7) Reliability - 7 The instability mechanic makes them extremely reliable, but all of their units are very pricey and with no access to the crown, they cannot abuse steadfast in the same way that other armies can. The bulk of the army being T3 (and or S3-4) makes their ability to fight prolonged grind outs against some of the tougher blocks out there difficulty and very magic dependant. They also suffer a lot to armies with large amounts of impact hits and stomps that bypass their WS. Finally, with their low numbers, modest Toughness, and lack of artilery they tend to fare extremely poorly against shooting armies. Where they do excell is in fighting to the last man, as instability is relatively easy to predict and plan around.
So 52/70.

Snake1311
01-12-2011, 17:52
Despite this I do feel we are pretty damn strong - we are just lacking in certain areas. If the categories were different we could score much higher.

I do think you are underrating WoC movement and maybe chaff a little, but otherwise the overall score is pretty accurate. Keep in mind that with this system evaulating different aspects the scores aren't 1 to 70 since armies have different profiles, but more along the lines of 30 to 60. So 30-39 is low tier, 40-50 is midtier (which is where WoC are, altho I'd have them more as 45ish than 41 for the reasons otlined above), and 51-60 is top tier which is where all of Phazael' armies lie (he overrated DE a bit, but yeah they are prolly on 60)

Phazael
01-12-2011, 19:14
Well, I think the OP rating system also tends to favor certain factors in an unbalanced manner. Chaffe and Movement are largely inter connected and even collectively they are less influentual than combat or magic, but in this scoring system they are valued the same as magic and combat combined. Still, its a good comparitive excercise.

For me, as primarily a tournament player, I tend to look at how certain lists fare against the likely draws you might see in a typical GT. Fighting games tend to rate characters the same way, but its more complex in warhammer because several armies (including the top ones) tend to have multiple builds that opperate radically differently on the table. This is one of the main reasons (along with how they tend to do in battle points at major events) I think those three armies are the top dogs, especially Dark Elves.

Dark Elves have one kind of bad matchup (summon spam etherial VC), two even footing matchups (Chosenstar and elite infantry HE), and massive advantages over just about everyone else. Of those worrysome matchups the Chosenstar one is the only one a DE player is likely to see with any frequency. The other two are not especially strong against the bulk of the field, so a DE player who smashes face in round one (which is very likely) really only has to be wary of Chosenstar armies, as the other two are more often stuck in the middle of the pack.

If an army has strong advantages against many armies but does poorly against the more common ones, its not going to do as well, despite quite possibly being good in a number of areas. Daemons are kind of in this boat right now because, while they absolutely crush lower tier armies, they cannot lay a glove on a descent DE or Lizarmen list. The other army I ran a lot last GT season, Bretts, have the same issue but fortunately mainly just struggle against DE and some of the lower tier armies that I won't ever face if I am winning early. The fact that my Brett list struggles against Wood Elves and Beastmen means very little if I am unlikely to face them.

Again, good comparitive excercise, but not really an absolute gauge on what armies are nessecarily the best in a tournament environment.

And I consider WoC to be in the top end of the middle tier, #5 overall behind Empire and the God Tier. Daemons would rank two spots below that (I consider Ogres between the two).

Coldblood666
01-12-2011, 19:32
I've heard from a few that Ogres are a force to be reckoned with now. Where do they sit? Does anyone here play them regularily?

Phazael
01-12-2011, 20:10
I have played them tons since the new book came out and I honestly cannot believe Jervis wrote the rules, because they are so strong without ever jumping the shark. They have a few matchup bugaboos (Chosenstar and DE), but there are a lot of ways to play the army now and their former weakness to gunlines has been pretty much negated. I consider them at about #7, below Warriors and above Daemons, in overall power. If I were GW I would use them as the benchmark for balancing all future books. They also seem to shake up the metagame a lot, since they just pound Lizards and Skaven, but struggle against some of the weaker armies, which I consider a good thing.

In the context of this thread, however....
1) Mobility - 7 Unless you are using lots of Gnoblars, your infantry all moves fast. Plus they have the fastest glass cannon unit in the game, with Mournfangs. Where they suffer is in that their units are not expecially manueverable and they lack skirmishers.
2) Magic - 3 Outside of the Lore Attibute being mildly abusable, Lore of the Maw blows and they make you take it if you want anything other than L2 fire magic. Ogre players refer to this as the Butcher tax and it makes the already overpriced casters even more expensive. The only saving grace is that the hero level wizards can take great weapons and you are not really dependant on magic to win games.
3) Magic Defense- 9 Like chaos warriors, the generally solid ogre stat line makes them pretty resistant to the debuff game. They also have the best single turn shutdown item in the game in the hellheart, though it requires serious point investment and some tactical positioning to get the most out of. Against most Ogre armies, you will face Heart and a scroll, so expecting magic to swing the game on the key turn is a fools errand against them. Chaos mitigate this a lot with the puppet. The heart will outright win games against VC and Lizardmen.
4) Shooting - 9 No, I am not on drugs. Ogres got one of the most versitile cannons in the game and vastly customizable Maneater unit that shoots as well as it fights. Lead Beltchers are so so, but you can easily build a very good gunline around them, backed by Heavens magic and gnoblar chaffe.
5) Combat - 8 Ogres have poor weapon skill and initiative. Thats where the weaknesses end, as Ironguts and Maneaters will obliterate nearly anything put in front of them. If your local metagame has more T3 fare, then you can do the same or worse with Bulls and Mournfangs. Thanks to stomps and multiple wounds, they are descently good at long grind outs.
6) Chaff - 9 Gnoblar trappers and solo Sabers are better chaffe than any army other than DE can put out. If you are more into tar pitting, you can put down gigantic Gnoblar busses with full commands for marginally more than the Skaven slave version. The sabers have leadership issues and can cause panic, so using them is often dangerous.
7) Reliability - 6 The ogres, themselves, are pretty resilient as troops go (especially the Mournfangs), though not as much as Saurus or Chaos Warriors. The biggest issue is leadership, especially in armies built around a Slaughtermaster general. Panic concerns and a general lack of static combat res mean you will often see the entire army huddled around the leadership bubble. With the low number of units on the table and mediocre to poor leadership, this army is always one blown panic test away from total collapse.
So 51/70.

Maoriboy007
01-12-2011, 23:40
MotBA is everywhere reallyYou might get it on the single lord, remember you cant spred the dice around, and it costs the extra level and/or the Loremaster ability. You can have a bunch of level ones struggling to cast whatever spell they got or using an overkill 2 dice to cast a 4+ spell.



and the thing about magic isnt true - they only need one Vanhels to go through per phase, and that will happen pretty much regardless of winds.They need way more than that, probably two vanhels and a ton of raising to boot.


Flaming does negate the regen, but the VC star can beat up the unit holding it pretty fast - and generally big deathstars don't carry it because of its interaction with lone heroes with dragonhelms.Generally the BSB gets targeted first, also Graveguard can get beaten up as wel

.


Im still surprised at the number of WoC coming up - can everyone who selects them please expand on why? They are certainly annoyingly strong in CC, but as an army overall they can be dealt with in relatively straightforward ways.
Rival skavenslaves for the best cheap core chaff in the game
Cheap redirectors.
Some of the best close combat troops available.
Deadly characters
Cheap and poweful magic and countermagic
Hellcannons - these bad boys force your opponant to close with your killer troops.
It should be noted most stonehrowers might wound around 6 troops on a hit, these bad boys will pretty much kill 15-20 on a hit. And you can't do much against them.



Anyone still saying Daemons or VC needs to get in step with the times. Those books have not been dominant since Skaven took over in 7th and tournament results reflect that.Well demons were still pretty dominant until 8th. VC fought it out for the top spot with a bunch of armiesincluding skaven. Fear hit VC pretty bad when it changed, DoC had fallbacks, but both dropped in the rankings whereas the rest did ok. VC can still put out a decent magic phase, but they are otherwise limited in the builds they can take. Demons can still run some of their nasty combos, lost the plaguestar but regained bloodletters.


I have played them tons since the new book came out and I honestly cannot believe Jervis wrote the rules, because they are so strong without ever jumping the shark. Agreed, Ogres are easily the best book written for 8th so far. People try and sell the line that the 8th books (after skaven) are "balanced" which seems to translate as "I can play a weak list and still have a good chance at beating them or play a strong list and roll them."
I like th OK book because they actually got compensated for their weakness' in 8th.
OnG would rate higher but animosity is a fairly big anchor, yes I know OnG purists seem to enjoy the fact that thier army might randomly implode at any given moment...go figure, it takes all kinds I guess :D


2) Magic - 3 Outside of the Lore Attibute being mildly abusable, Lore of the Maw blows and they make you take it if you want anything other than L2 fire magic. Ogre players refer to this as the Butcher tax and it makes the already overpriced casters even more expensive. The only saving grace is that the hero level wizards can take great weapons and you are not really dependant on magic to win games. Sorry, but the lore is waaaaaay better than the TK lore for a start. It does everything a fast low armour combat army could ask for. The spells have a decent range and are reasonably costed to boot. The great Maw spell is what other uber-spells should be, extremely powerful without being completely broken

Phazael
02-12-2011, 01:00
Have to disagree about the Maw Lore. Every spell in it has a cheaper or better (or both) version in other lores. It also has one of the most horrid "6" spells of any lore, possibly including Lore of the Wild. The only must stop spell in the entire lore is Trollguts, which any army with wide access to flaming attacks (lots these days) can probably just ignore. The stat buffs being split up make them pretty much inferior to Wild Form (which Ogres can access) and brain gobler and bone cruncher are very situational in the era of no knights and super BSBs. That leaves Stubborn as the one really consistantly useful spell, but even then Light of Battle and the High Elf equivalent are both superior spells.

My games improved markedly when I stopped taking a Maw SM. I now run a pair of Firebellies in my serious list and a Heavens SM in my casual list. Both give me more in the magic phase, which is sad when you consider that Fire is widely accepted as one of the worst lores in the game. Beasts was interesting when I tested it, but it was not worth the Butcher tax. The fact that Firebellies have uses beyond the magic phase just drives the nail in the coffin for me.

And for the record, I feel that Tomb Kings have arguably the third worst magic phase in the game behind OnG and Dwarves, so saying that Maw is better is hardly compelling praise....

Duke Ramulots
02-12-2011, 01:10
@Phazael, the lore of the wild #6 spell is awesome. A mountain chimera can remove units from the battle wholesale and if it dies it(in my case) was just a 70 point damsel.

Maoriboy007
02-12-2011, 02:01
Have to disagree about the Maw Lore. Every spell in it has a cheaper or better (or both) version in other lores.Only beasts come close, Maw has a lot of good spells in the one lore. The Str 2 hits is very good against high toughness targets as you ususally need 6 to wound anyway, anything softer Ogres should just hit with a pointy (and heavy) stick. The only reason I don't play Ogres these days is my mate has started playing them again.



It also has one of the most horrid "6" spells of any lore, possibly including Lore of the Wild.....Why? Just becaus it isn't broken like some of the BRB spells doesn't make it bad. its probably about right (although in comparison to the others it can afford to be 18+ to cast)
It can break armour and wound monsters and other multi-wound models without being silly and outright killing them. Elves Skaven and Marauders arent practically immune to it as they'll still take the str 3 (probably making the 20+ fair actually). Its what all #6 spells should be IMO


The only must stop spell in the entire lore is Trollguts, which any army with wide access to flaming attacks (lots these days) can probably just ignore. The stat buffs being split up make them pretty much inferior to Wild Form (which Ogres can access) and brain gobler and bone cruncher are very situational in the era of no knights and super BSBs. ....The great thing about trollguts is you can put it where a flaming banner isn't. Taking Ogres up to 5 str or Toughness isn't to be sneesed at , and the 8+ cost is perfectly reasonable and the 18 inch range for a combat buff is great (looks at 9+ costs and 12" ranges for TK buffs and shakes head in disbeleif) especially since you tend not to mind having a butcher close to the action. As you said, Ogres are plenty powerful without the lore, they dont need too much out of it.


That leaves Stubborn as the one really consistantly useful spell, but even then Light of Battle and the High Elf equivalent are both superior spells.....Not everyone plays HE, and does LoB make you stubborn? Still its a cheap spell and very useful for an army with low Static res.


And for the record, I feel that Tomb Kings have arguably the third worst magic phase in the game behind OnG and Dwarves, so saying that Maw is better is hardly compelling praise.... At least Ogres aren't supposed to rely on the phase as much.

I have to say that the 8th edition TK book has invigorated my fondness for VC in a way that 7th never did.

Snake1311
02-12-2011, 12:18
They need way more than that, probably two vanhels and a ton of raising to boot.


This is simply not true. One vanhels is all you need to move your deathstar, and both GG and Ghouls are cost effective enough without raising. Unfortunately, you lack of understanding on this specific point makes your other VC ones moot, since they are actually not that reliant on the magic phase, and can invest in measures to protect their BSB.

Nubl0
02-12-2011, 12:39
Beastmen are probably the best army out there right now...

I mean do any other books have a unit with "best" in their name? Bestigors rock!

Crovax20
02-12-2011, 13:15
Tomb Kings

1) Mobility - 2
Well tomb kings aren't very manouvrable... but they do have a magic phase to try and make up for that

2) Magic - 7
Tomb king magic is mostly about buffing and hexing, but with casket of souls and some other units in the game offering you more powerdice, you will find that you can usually cast some spells and turn that unit into something deadly

3) Antimagic - 5
Pretty mediocore

4) Shooting - 7
Tomb king shooting always hitting on a 5+ and chariots having bows, and the ability to give multiple shots to your units thanks to magic.. Tomb Kings don't care you are sitting in a watchtower, they don't care you have a roof over your head. The stonethrower is also pretty good and fiery roars from warsphinxes are nasty.

5) Combat - 7
Skeleton warriors are pretty bad, but the other units are usually killy enough to win combats if you aren't suicide charging. A charge of 6 chariots is going to put the pain on just about any unit, toughness 8 creatures will make anyone without cannons be afraid, proliferation of killing blow and buffs to make your units even better also makes them lethal. But if the going gets tough, your units will disappear faster than you can heal them. Still I rate them pretty good for general purpose fighting

6) Chaff - 5
Low movement values and not being able to flee means we aren't that great. Still a unit of scouting horse archers isn't expensive and can be sacrificed.

7) reliability- 6
Well, we won't budge but the crumble rules are a bit of a kick in the balls if you compare them to what non undead armies get with steadfast. Units will do what you tell them to do, but you better hope you don't miscast with your hierophant (which always seems to happen to me and he always gets sucked into the warp).

Total 39/70

Decidedly average!

As for my personal perception of playing the game at our club (mind you we don't have all armies)

Vampire Counts
Dark Elves
Lizardmen

Phazael
02-12-2011, 19:05
@Mauoriboy-
Light of Battle makes a unit autopass all leadership tests and rally imediately if it is fleeing. It also has a boosted version that is stupidly easy to cast. Its probably the single most overlooked spell in that entire lore, which is admittedly not that suprising.

Also, just because the 6 spell is "balanced" does not change the reality that is sucks compared to all of the other spells in the game of comparible casting value. The reality is that these anti-deathstar spells are in the game and this one is just plain aweful, plus it has a sizable chance to backfire and rape your own army. There is just no excuse for that nasty of a backfire on a spell where so many dice rolls have to go right for it to do something in the first place. Also, why another initiative test spell? Toughness would be nice for a change (and make a lot more sense in context of the Maw fluff).

RE Tomb Kings-
Their magic is super aweful bad and mad worse in that they depend on it to win. I mean, not only do you have to take it, but you have to take it on your best wizard. The Heirotitan and Casket help some, but jesus when I have faced Tomb Kings I pretty much just let them cast anything they want other than the T debuff from that lore, because it just does not matter if it gets off 90% of the time.

I think their chaffe is really excellent. Four point skellies are hard to top, especially when you can slap a cheap character in there to pump them to WS5. They may not kill much, but good luck chewing through them before the Snake Surfers and Chariots roll your flank. I also happen to like the swarms, for their value. Plus, naked three packs of chariots are really cheap for the amount of threat they can pose to units. Lots of good stuff here, its just the mobility and magic issues torpedo the entire army.

Passmossis
03-12-2011, 22:02
Deamons,
High Elves, (we allow special characters)
Ogres.


Never had that much dificuility with Dark Elves...

How bout I 'borrow' these dark elves, and we can test this difficulty level. :angel:

And you know Ogres are #1!

Xbox360<PS3<PC
03-12-2011, 22:47
Top army is skaven.

50 Slaves are 100p
They can take more than 5 units off these and still have a huge army left. Combined with MSU stormvemin with 2 fire into combat war machines leaves something that will slaughter anything that's not balanced and optimized.

2 is Dark elves because they can monster chariot spam, or have a blackguard list. They dont need to be buffed or the enemy hexed to do well. Then there magic is super offensive with the dagger. They are not the best army because it is hard to build a balanced army.

3 is high elves. SoA overidding ASL is stupid. Coupled with great magic, large blocks that can put fight in a stupid amount of ranks. I hate them highly apart from this though, as they can build lists that do great against a lot of builds, but unlike other armies lists can hold their own against the rest

4 is lizards because they have powerful magic, good close combat, then skink skirmishers and salamanders. They also have the awesome trick of the slann in skink behind skirmishers. can shoot anything in the game as they are hard to hit, and its impossible to shoot the slann with small missile fire. Lizards could nearly be #2 but they rely just a bit to much on magic

5 Daemons. They have the best magic lore in the game. You disagree, well they use the extra dice spell , then cast your purple sun on a 7, then shoot you with 2D6 SD6+4 missiles. Then they can have anyone choose a lore. Greater daemon of nurgle or tzeentch are both insane. Tzeentch is a caster that can own your combat heroes in combat and Nurgle is practically impossible to kill. Fiends are really nasty as well as are flamers. If they werent so overcosted and you cant take a greater daemon in smaller game they would probably be #2.

Then there is O&G, Ogres and Tomb kings which are pretty good and the best builds of these can take on any one the above five. Sadly everything else cant. I know someones going to argue vamps or WoC are but they are not.

Sh4d0w
04-12-2011, 05:42
I actually laughed when somebody said ogres have 9/10 magic defense...don't sposed he's ever been hit by a purple sun or pit of shades...game is over right there if the opponent gets it off in the right area XD

Tarian
04-12-2011, 06:04
Skaven:

6) Chaff - 8 Super Cheap rat packs and slinger guys are really awesome for their cost, but this is tempered by suspect leadership.



How does Skaven get an 8 for Chaff when almost their entire army is chaff? :D

I mean, outside of the general or warmachines/monsters, what does Skaven really have that they can't afford to lose? (Especially with usually being LD 9-10 and stubborn with rerolls)

russellmoo
04-12-2011, 07:09
It's true I would probably go with 6 for combat, and 10 for chaff- (seriously, Skaven have warlock engineers- the cheapest redirector in the game)

But they also have the second worst fighters in the game (the only things slaves can beat in combat are gnoblars)

Infern0
04-12-2011, 07:17
But they also have the second worst fighters in the game (the only things slaves can beat in combat are gnoblars)


slaves are not for fighting ;)

thesheriff
04-12-2011, 19:43
1) Warriors of Chaos - Chosenstar, Khorne marauders w. great weapons, great wizards, hounds and solid shooting.
2) Daemons - Bloodletter hordes, Cheap loremasters, Lv.4's as core with 35+ wounds each, flamers and fiends.
3)Skaven - Slave trains, Cheap(ish) Lv.4's, Great Warmachines, Hellpits, weapon teams.

And yeah, slaves are not for fighting. there the steedbumbs of the warhammer world.

Duke Ramulots
05-12-2011, 00:00
Your arguments are futile, everyone knows that Brettonia is unstopable.

russellmoo
05-12-2011, 00:14
The fact that slaves are not for fighting, doesn't negate that fact that the majority of fighting done by a skaven army involves slaves- therefore, when considering how well skaven fight in CC you have to take into account how poorly slaves fight-

Choas_4_Win
05-12-2011, 09:46
chaos for the win >:D

Echunia
05-12-2011, 10:08
I think it depends on what enviorment we are considering. Armies like skaven and WoC are very powerful in a no comp enviorment for example. But when considering a comped tournament enviorment like most of Great Britain, I would have to go for:

DE - The best synergy with the arguably strongest lore out there (shadow). There is just no argument that the mindrazor list with lots of shades is one of the most competitive lists available. Also the ability to stack the magic phase with dagger and PoD makes the army extremly reliable, able to spit out 7 or so dice on a roll of 3.
VC - Two extremly strong builds that fit in almost all comps (GG buss with helm bunker and ghouls. And Black knight buss with blood drinker and red fury (ie unkillable buss) with ghouls and the rest.) Very reliable army with magical charge (i.e. very fast).
Daemons - Point for point some of the strongest choices out there, a bit predictable but that's only because so many play them.

in no particular order.

Reasons I haven't included skaven, WoC or Lizardmen:

Skaven - In most comps unit sizes are capped, as well as double Abombs or double cannons. Skaven are an unreliable army, not in leadership but in power. The shooting really vaxes and wanes. In some games it will tear your opponent apart but there's a reason why they don't win so many tournaments. It's hard to perfrom consistently with a skaven list.
WoC - When unit costs are capped the warriors reduce considerably in power. Suddenly they are not the strongest combat army as their units can easily be swept aside by the other top 3. (when units of warriors go from 30-25 to 15-20 they really aren't that scary any more). Also when a lot of an army is Ld8 and frenzy it becomes easy to control.
Lizardmen - Low initiative. The all skink list with slann is really powerful but normally you can't take it in a comped environment. The problem for lizardmen is that they will face to many armies that exploit their weaknesses and purely on that merit do not make my top 3.

vcassano
05-12-2011, 13:06
DE - The best synergy with the arguably strongest lore out there (shadow). There is just no argument that the mindrazor list with lots of shades is one of the most competitive lists available. Also the ability to stack the magic phase with dagger and PoD makes the army extremly reliable, able to spit out 7 or so dice on a roll of 3.

To play devils advocate - Dark Elves don't really perform too well in the UK, besides Ben Curry (who is a top player, full stop) so perhaps they aren't all they are cracked up to be?

Phazael
05-12-2011, 15:46
How does Skaven get an 8 for Chaff when almost their entire army is chaff? :D

I mean, outside of the general or warmachines/monsters, what does Skaven really have that they can't afford to lose? (Especially with usually being LD 9-10 and stubborn with rerolls)

Their Chaffe is relatively slow moving (compared to say, DE, DoC, or even bottom of the barrel armies like WE) and has to stay tight to the leadership bubble to be useful in most cases. The armies I rate higher in this area (mind you, not many, I gave them an 8) have chaffe units that move very fast and can operate independantly. The only unit in the entire Skaven army that can function independantly is the Hell Pit and its among the slowest things in the army.

Phazael
05-12-2011, 15:52
If this were discussing comped environments, with things like the silly ECT restrictions and the like, the thread would have been titled as such. The only things that get universally comped are generally Teclis, Kairos, and the Fortress. I proceeded from the assumtion that all options were on the table for this discussion.

If you look at it that way and go by pure battle points, Dark Elves dominate the field. The reason they do not do as well in comped environments is that those environments always over and under react to things, as well as generally being 1-2 years behind the metagame. There also seems to be this strange bias towards gunline happy lists in most of those comping systems and the results of these events tend to reflect this bizarre love of dwarven gunline.

Echunia
05-12-2011, 17:15
To play devils advocate - Dark Elves don't really perform too well in the UK, besides Ben Curry (who is a top player, full stop) so perhaps they aren't all they are cracked up to be?

I think this might be because Ben dominates the race so totally and other top players don't want to be second best at their race so they take other armies. But I agree that it's a good point :), I stand by my argument thou.

Maoriboy007
05-12-2011, 20:16
As far as my picks go for best:

WoC: These guys are so solid right now, they have all the tools to do everything right in the combat phase. Thier magic is as potent as it ever was and Hellcannons are the most brutal war machines you can't do anything about.

DoC: They admittedly took some hits this edition, they are no longer the total near unbeatable filth they used to be. But played nasty they can still bring some of the dirtiest tricks you'll ever see. A lot of course centres around Kairos who tends to win games almost single handedly, but they have other cards to play as well.

DE: Yeah, of the top armies of 7th they took probably the least hits as far as depowering goes, the biggest was probably the Hotek one. Still have some real nasty cards to play if you want to filth it up.

I can't comment on skaven as they haven't been played in a while , but from the few times I played them at the end of 7th , I could beleive they are a top contender in 8th. The Skaven guy is happily rolling his ogres successfully over all our armies ATM anyway
An honourable mention goes to Dwarves who have done quite well in 8th , although when used in 7th we never seemed to find them all that underpowered. Those laser guided warmachines are even more devestating this ed. though.
VC are a hard one, thay have one list that works really well and thats about it. If you plan against this list then you can handle them fairly well, about the only variety they have is which lore they might take on thier lord, and/or whether or not the player wants to risk a combat version or not.


@Maoriboy-
Light of Battle makes a unit autopass all leadership tests and rally imediately if it is fleeing. It also has a boosted version that is stupidly easy to cast. Its probably the single most overlooked spell in that entire lore, which is admittedly not that suprising.Well fair enough, but you cant expect to have a carbon copy of an admittedly decent spell in the OK lore. The stubborn spell is very cheap and fits in well for an army with little to no static res, so I still consider it a good spell.


Also, just because the 6 spell is "balanced" does not change the reality that is sucks compared to all of the other spells in the game of comparible casting value. The reality is that these anti-deathstar spells are in the game Oh, I don't disagree that the BRB mega spells are terrible. Purple Nurple, Dwellers even Shades(although if it were muted shades could afford to be cheaper) are pretty terrible in conception and are pretty big parts of what is wrong with the game atm. Its more that they should have been more like the Maw spell. I have a real problem with Purple sun, the Maw is still Brutal but at least fair.


this one is just plain aweful,An overstatement really. It has decent hitting power and can peirce armour , worry monsters and other multiwound models (unlike the OnG and K spells). Even if models pass the I test they still take a str 3 hit (so Skaven Elves of all stripe and maurauders aren't practically immune like they are to Shades and Psun.


plus it has a sizable chance to backfire and rape your own army. There is just no excuse for that nasty of a backfire on a spell where so many dice rolls have to go right for it to do something in the first place.Pretty much all the "big" spells do this in the other lores as well, so its fair enough in that respect. Its one of the reasons that I agree that the big spells should have big damage potential, as you've said they are hard and risky to cast after all. Its the whole "die immediatly regarless of wounds saves etc." I have issue with.


Also, why another initiative test spell? Toughness would be nice for a change (and make a lot more sense in context of the Maw fluff).It is a pity initiative is focused on with these spells, as specifica armies tend to get done over more than others, however I would guess its because its the one area you are more likely to wound a large monster.


RE Tomb Kings-
Their magic is super aweful bad and mad worse in that they depend on it to win. I mean, not only do you have to take it, but you have to take it on your best wizard. The Heirotitan and Casket help some, but jesus when I have faced Tomb Kings I pretty much just let them cast anything they want other than the T debuff from that lore, because it just does not matter if it gets off 90% of the time Can't say my experience leads me to disagree with you there.


I think their chaffe is really excellent. Four point skellies are hard to top,.The problem is that they cant do what most chaff can do, sit there even while losing combats. Unstable tends to be a real penalty in this case. Consider that skeletons were pretty much overpriced even before 8th made them unstable. A skeleton unit can usually make it the first round in one way or another, but suffer every round after.


especially when you can slap a cheap character in there to pump them to WS5. They may not kill much, but good luck chewing through them before the Snake Surfers and Chariots roll your flank. I also happen to like the swarms, for their value..Cheap is relative I suppose, yes they get toughness 5 but its hard to protect them, and they get soaked in gasolene for their troubles.


Plus, naked three packs of chariots are really cheap for the amount of threat they can pose to units..160 odd points for what amounts to a disposabel unit seems a bit pricey to me, they'll hit then die. A good roll might occasionally see you through, but they tend to kill units that are cheaper anyway.


Lots of good stuff here, its just the mobility and magic issues torpedo the entire army.Meh , I tend to find the army tends to be window dressing myself.The Sphinxes are solid as a special unit of their cost should be anyway (and I admit they are at least somewhat priced for 8th edition , not cheap or anything though) skeletons cost what they always should have, not a bargain by any means. And those are tha best of a bad lot really.
The rest ranges from decidedly average to medicre IMO. The best units tend to be excuses for shortcoming in other places and tend to cover them rather shoddily if at all heirotitans and the casket for example are jusification to spend extra points to prop up what is probably the most average and overpointed lore in the game.

El Antiguo Guardián
05-12-2011, 20:26
My main armies are Orcs, Vampires, and Skaven.
With orcs y face DE this saturday, an orcs strong list versus a powefull DE one... No words. He killed me.
With vampires...they so powerfull, but only with magic. Ghost and wigths are terrible.
And skaven...they´re unnestopable.

So, Skaven, DE and WoC (CHOSENSTAR)

Askari
05-12-2011, 21:35
I'll have a go on my two armies, one as a powerhouse, and one as roughly balanced.

The Empire

Mobility - 5
Pretty average with low infantry movement, but easy access to Cavalry and the odd flyer (Captasus)

Magic - 6
Access to all BRB Lores with cheap Wizards means you can hold your own in the Magic Phase. Low-cost Grey Wand and Rod of Power boost can save you from poor Winds of Magic rolls also.

Antimagic - 10
The Empire is even better than Dwarves at Antimagic. Why? Level 4 + extra dispel dice means quite often you have equal dispelling power to the opponent's casting power. I usually have +3DD a turn, meaning on average rolls, my dispel dice and the opponent's power dice are equal.

Shooting - 9
Second only to Dwarfish runed warmachines, the Empire can field vast artillery parks including the accurate Mortar, sniper Cannons and the S5 Large Blast Template of Doom. Even infantry shooting isn't terrible, considering the cost of Crossbowmen.

Combat - 3
Only Undead infantry, Skinks, Goblins and Gnoblars take a beating from State Troops. Knights are, oddly, more of a tarpit than face-smash. Greatswords with Warrior Priests are acceptable, but hardly amazing. If tarpits are considered then we get a boost to about 7, as both the War Altar and Steam Tank are kings of tarpitting.

Chaff - 5
Pistoliers, the aforementioned Captasus, cheap Archers and Miltia, Detachment rules.

Reliability - 6
Above average, due to low cost of troops the Empire is usually Steadfast and BSBs are cheap and easy to protect due to Armour of Meteoric Iron and 4+ Ward save prayer. Low Leadership values hurt, but Flagellents, War Altars and Steam Tanks are Unbreakable with Greatswords Stubborn.

Total - 43/70 (thanks to amazing antimagic and shooting)
_______________________
Vampire Counts

Mobility - 5
Recently improved with the addition of the Terrorgheist, the Vampire's mobility depends on Vanhel's Danse Macabre. Expensive cavalry, rubbish flyers and the inability to march outside of a Vampire's control means they can suffer in the movement phase.

Magic - 8
Master of the Black Arts, and the Black Periapt means no magic phase will be a complete disaster. The Lore of the Vampires is great, and they have multiple access to Loremaster (everything except Life). Necromancers can ensure you get the invaluable Vanhels.

Antimagic - 2
Necromancers are very cheap scroll caddies, but that's about it for Vampiric antimagic.

Shooting - 1
The shooting we do have is excellent, in Banshees and the Terrorgheist's awesome screams. It's just there hardly is any, even Warriors of Chaos boast more considerable shooting power in the Hellcannon.

Combat - 9
Grave Guard and Ghouls are both excellent and do well from the new Horde rules in 8th. Vampires with Red Fury, and access to Beasts, can slay entire units on their own. They have two superb monsters in the Varghulf and Terrorgheist and Blood Knights are one of the only cavalry that still break units (the other, of course, being of the Chaotic variety)
Add in the ability to regain wounds/lost models make them quite the nasty hitters.

Chaff - 10
Yeah, I said it. Spirit Hosts and hero Wraiths can tie up any Monster/Warhmachine crew/fast cav unit indefinitely. Dire Wolves can work as drops and redirectors, and summon Zombies for speedbumping and redirection.

Reliability - 6
Nothing will ever break, but things will die a lot instead thanks to Unstable and the loss of the general really cripples the army.

Total 41/70

According to my own random judgement, the Empire is stronger?! Assuming all categories have equal importance, of course...

Phazael
05-12-2011, 22:42
My experiences (and observations from US GTs) agree with that assesment. Empire is a VERY strong army right now, probably the #4 army after the god tier. The issues it has are that it is mainly one specific build that is mind bogglingly powerful and it is the Holy Roller list, ie Flaggelent horde, popemobile, 2xStank, and Greatsword deathstar. This army suffers against things that can squeeze shadow spells through the enourmous magic defense (hi2u DE) and has a tough time against DoC armies smart enough not to run a greater daemon, but its balls hard for just about anyone else to face. If anything, you probably underated their combat potential because swordsmen and free company are really good for the cost, as are fully ranked knight death stars. Many armies will bleed themselves white chewing through the flaggelents, as well. Mainly, though, its the king of point denial. If you cannot kill a Stank or Popemobile reliably, then there are 700 points you will never collect. The only reason I do not consider it a top tier army is that it has one competitive build and some poor matchups to common tournament draws (DoC and the new Ogres, mainly).

TLDR version: Yeah Empire is really good and deffinately better than VC.

El Antiguo Guardián
06-12-2011, 09:47
Well, VC antimagic 2 and empire 10... If you have +5 instead of +4 on magic level with magic items, antimagic 5 al lest...

Askari
06-12-2011, 15:09
Well, VC antimagic 2 and empire 10... If you have +5 instead of +4 on magic level with magic items, antimagic 5 al lest...

Vampires have access to the same antimagic abilities as everyone else (Level 4, BRB Scrolls, +1 to dispel), while not having any of their own magic inhibitors like Banner of the World Dragon, Ring of Hotek, Warrior Priest/Runesmith bonus dispel dice etc.

Even worse, taking a Level 4 Wizard limits what your Vampire Lord can do, as he cannot also take both Master of the Black Arts and Forbidden Lore as well as being Level 4.

So yeah, they get a 2.

Phazael
06-12-2011, 15:50
I don't see how you can rate VC as being below average in antimagic, at least less than 4 (since its problematic including a L4) when they have the same tools every other army has, though. If anything, the massive number of channels they get, Black Coach, and Periapt help them more than the average army. The only issue with magic they have is their extreme dependance on it and the massive vulnerability they have to it from their statlines.

boli
06-12-2011, 17:22
I find it quite amusing that these scores are pretty even across the board; although a good general could add 1-50 and luck another 1-50 score so its all to play for :P

Be interesting to see someone who plays WE's more than I have to break down and do a score for a supposed weak army.

Askari
06-12-2011, 18:43
I don't see how you can rate VC as being below average in antimagic, at least less than 4 (since its problematic including a L4) when they have the same tools every other army has, though. If anything, the massive number of channels they get, Black Coach, and Periapt help them more than the average army. The only issue with magic they have is their extreme dependance on it and the massive vulnerability they have to it from their statlines.

The Black Coach is a hindrance on your own Magic phase also however.

I guess 2 may be a bit low, although I looked at the scores being not 1 = lowest possible, but the worst army in that field i.e. Vampires score 1 for shooting, as they are the worst shooting army, not because they have no shooting. In that respect, they have none of the 'added' antimagic of other races, just the bog-standard BRB stuff, hence worse score.

Maoriboy007
06-12-2011, 18:56
The Black Coach is a hindrance on your own Magic phase also however.In fairness the black coach does count towards magic defence, but you would also have to lower the magic score if you were to include it as it also drians your power dice, so its almost better to leave it on the side of the equation.

Personally I think the combat score is a bit high considering the majority of the army is WS 3. Yes I know there is the helm, but its from an item that also takes your best fighter out of combat, you might as well factor in ther WS boost from lore of light for every army or re-rolls granted by a Warrior Priest in the Empire army. The helm can't be everywhere either. I'd give VC a solid 7 maybe a low 8 in combat.

VC Chaff score is way too high, undead chaff doesn't do what it says on the box and is way overrated, undead chaff is costed too high and unstable basically keeps them from doing what chaff is supposed to. There is a good reason only the solid choices are taken in a VC army, they dont die as much.

I like Empire combat troops, I'd give them a 5 or 6 maybe.

a18no
07-12-2011, 03:16
I love the criteria, but one of the 7 is too much. For information, I have dark elf, empire, O&G, ogre. Have played many time skaven, high elf, vampire. Have faced more than often dwarf, vampire, beastmen and high elf. And have possessed but traded lizard and wood elf. So I can say that my understanding of the game is good but not perfect. Here's something I've come too:

Mobility: Capacity of the army to control the movement phase (annoyer, fast movement)
Magic Offense: Lore access, capacity to generate dice, capacity to use dice (dark elf), Buff/Hex, dmg spells
Magic defense: bonus on dispel, access to more DD, special capacity (magic resist as for deamon)
Shooting: Range, Str, armor penalty, mutli shot, warmachines
Combat: Offensive (# of A, Str), Defensive (armor), Speed (ini), re-roll
Reliability; Ld, special rules (unbreakable, etc.), NUMBER

Then, I've quoted all army in a table, on each stats. I wanted to compare them against each other. 1 behing the best score, and 15 possibly the worst one. But there's no iterm that can be given a 1 to 15 score, so my worst score was actually 7. The average score is 20

Beastmen; 4-3-5-6-2-3 = 23. possible hatred each turn, they can be cheap got access to some of the best lore. But below than average

Bretonnian: 2-5-5-3-2-3 = 20. 2+ save, great movement, still one of the best warmachines in the game, flaming shooting and cheap, great offensive but they NEED the charge (still have among the best movement). The lack annoyer and good magic.

Deamon: 4-2-5-5-2-2 = 20. Unbreakable, cause fear, among the best damage dealer, but cost a lot!

Dark Elfs: 4-1-4-4-1-2 = 16. Shooting is so so to my taste. Need warmachines to be good. Among the best offensive capability. the magic is awesome. Great movement (as for all elf), access to annoyer. Also VERY cheap for the damage capacity! Top 2 with no question.

Dwarfs: 6-6-2-1-3-1 = 19. EVERYTHING they have is strong. But they miss too much thing to be in the top 4: movement, annoyer and magic offense.

High elf: 4-1-3-4-2-4 = 18. Top 4...... ON PAPER. They cost so much that a very low portion of their build is good. Among the best magic though. It,s the part that help them the most.

Lizard: 5-1-5-4-2-1 = 18. In the best. Again magic and LD is the key. Cost less than High elf but got the so beautifull T4 and good armor. 2A each Str4 put them in the high class. Shooting is good, but could be way better to give them the little something to be in the top 2.

Ogre: 3-5-5-4-1-3 = 21. Among the 3 best unit in close combat. Maw lore is funny, but miss a little of something I can't put my finger on. Average army.

O&G: 5-4-5-4-2-3 = 23. Among the worst... ON PAPER. Their magic offensive CAN be nasty, the problem is that they lack some PD generation. Str 4 or even 5!!, T4. But the Goblin are the weakest part (if we can say week!). I love them, very good but on paper they lack something.

Skaven: 4-3-5-3-4-2 = 21. The cheer number can compensation the lack of damage potential but not everytime. Good machines and magic but too much unreliable. Though the capacity to be BIG and with High LD make them good on this last item. Behing Mv5, Ini 5, WS4 help them A LOT. but in our games, they don't "kill" as much as the top 4.

Empire: 5-2-1-2-3-3 = 16. top 2. THE magic defense: Dispel at +4 with easy +2DD each turn. Access to ALL lore make many strategy possible. Access to rod of power! and many other good items. Warmachines! miss some annoyer and flyers to be THE best army. Well played, they stay in the 2 best thing I can bring of the table.

Tomb King (need to face them more in 8th): 7-4-5-3-4-1 = 24. I must say that my understanding of the army is lacking. Too new for me. The mobility is a real problem for them. WS 2 and light armor make them crap in close combat. Some build are very good but imply that you play construct and shooting only... An exemple of a below than average army for me.

Vampire: 5-2-5-6-4-1 = 23: On paper they are among the worst. Low movement and no shooting is a real problem. BUT, i must say that when you include banshee and the new beast in this category they can hit hard. The mobility could have been quoted in the best, if you consider vanhels, but it's more in magic and can be nullify by good defense (to name 2 empire and dwarf).

Warrior: 5-3-4-4-1-2 = 19. Better than average. Some really good build come to mind: 2 big hordes of 40-50 marauder flail/khorne for a cheap dam price. Chosen death star. But they are in the best armies that I've almost never faced.

Wood elf: 2-5-5-3-5-5 = 25. Worst of all. Mainly because they are hardest to play. Skirmisher is a bonus as a liability.

Hope that help the topic!

tanglethorn
07-12-2011, 20:24
Damn what happened to this thread. The question was, which 3 armies are top tier in 8th edition? That means the 3 armies that win the most based on player experience.

Instead we've broken this down to each armies strength and weakness or people saying the best army is that one that has depth or better background. That's the criteria at all!

This happens everytime someone starts this kind of thread...yikes!

Duke Ramulots
07-12-2011, 22:28
Damn what happened to this thread. The question was, which 3 armies are top tier in 8th edition? That means the 3 armies that win the most based on player experience.

Instead we've broken this down to each armies strength and weakness or people saying the best army is that one that has depth or better background. That's the criteria at all!

This happens everytime someone starts this kind of thread...yikes!

In my experience then, its Skaven(cuz everyone plays them so they get more wins), DE, and my Bretts(Ive only lost twice in 8th with them).

Trains_Get_Robbed
07-12-2011, 22:42
These threads are asenine since everyone has thier own personal bias, and preferences.

Whatever armies win the most is easily the best way to determine 'which army is the best?' Thats wrong though, since the meta and specification vaules weren't given by the O.P, the entirety of these 5 pages are a waste.

Mirbeau
07-12-2011, 23:06
I'll rank the armies in the order I've seen win the most this edition. Bear in mind these are pick-up games, but the lists were generally strong, with only a few divergencies from the percieved 'strongest' lists, generally for flavour or 'cause the players just liked them. Exception to that perhaps being the High Elf, Tomb King and Beastmen players I know of who seem more prone to taking things just for kicks, so may have coloured my perspectives a bit.

Bear in mind I'm one of those who thinks there is pretty much no 'auto-win' army in the game, experience, skill and luck I believe to be more important than a list in winning (which is why I've lost the majority of my games :D)

Dark Elves - Haven't seen them lose

Daemons,Warriors,Skaven Winning 70-80% of the time

Vamps,Ogres,Orcs,High Elves,Bretonnians - 60-70%

Wood Elves - 50%

Just slightly behind
Tomb Kings, Beastmen 40 to 50%

Haven't seen anyone play empire or lizards this edition sadly.

WarmbloodedLizard
07-12-2011, 23:10
mirabeau, if your numbers are accurate, you must have A LOT of TK and BM players ;)

some_scrub
07-12-2011, 23:56
Making up a points system to rate the armies in categories is an interesting idea, but we're then trying to reality-check the system by comparing them to our impressions of what armies win. Why not go right to the source?

Is there any way to look at the Battle Points results for non comped tournaments like Throne of Skulls or 'ard Boys or whatever? Obviously comparing results for tournaments with different comp systems gets pretty hairy pretty quickly. It's probably best to look at the results of noncomped tournaments.