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golembane
29-11-2011, 16:44
I'm not sure how many people have heard through the blogosphere about this story yet, but figured I post here and see how people feel about it all. Granted it wasn't about WarmaHordes in particular, but it certainly is about tabletop gamers which we can all relate. A Greek newspaper posted an article about Warhammer 40K, in which they slander the people playing as racist, xenophobic, sexists, and a few other great terms people would surely want associated with them (that part's sarcasm).

The 122nd Cadian (http://cadia122.blogspot.com/2011/11/bad-journalism.html) went through the trouble of translating the article to read, and it is just amazing to read how horrible gamers come off as looking like. My wife found it rather insulting since she not only plays wargames (which according to the article isn't possible for women) and also tends to play evil armies. I was just dumbfounded and rather insulted that this article even managed to make it into publication at all, and I don't even live anywhere near Greece.

Voss
29-11-2011, 16:54
Meh. Sounds like its probably funny, and clearly what the Greek people are focused on right now.

GrogDaTyrant
29-11-2011, 16:54
Hmm... that article would have probably bothered me a year (or 2) ago. But these days, I just can't seem to dredge up enough care.

ColShaw
29-11-2011, 17:00
I'd think Greece would have actual issues (like the collapse of their economy) to worry about. Shrug it off; negative gamer stereotypes have existed for decades, and sadly, they're not going away. The only thing we can do is disprove them on a case-by-case individual basis.

Commissar Merces
29-11-2011, 17:02
Of all the countries to take flak from, Greece is probably the least deserving of throwing any stones. They have enough problems as is. Maybe said journalist should focus on civil unrest and government upheaval rather than blame wargamers for society's problems. She is pulling a page from the Nazi's on this one by blaming a small amount of the population for social problems while drastically twisting facts to achieve her agenda.

My girlfriend now plays and she has more fun with her guard and tyranids than this particular journalist probably had her whole childhood.

TheGreatDalmuti
29-11-2011, 17:04
I'm Greek. I would like to share how much this concerns me at a time like this.

Scaryscarymushroom
29-11-2011, 17:10
This article seems to have been written by a journalist with "xenophobic" tendencies of their own.

*sigh* Too bad we can't all just get along.

If an article like this were written in America, it would attract new players because of the appeals of danger and darkness etc.

I hope that the kids in Greece aren't turned off by this kind of journalism.


Dozens of horrible creatures, together with an Emperor-God (of the earthlings) and four Gods of Chaos, live in the blackest, obscurantist, religionist, militaristic, fundamentalist, authoritarian, racist, abominable and repulsive world ever conceived by the human mind.

This kind of attitude. This is what appealed to me as a teenager. I wanted to go there. I wanted to see it. There wasn't enough dirt in my life. There wasn't enough struggle or blood. But I hardly consider myself militaristic, religionist, racist, fundamentalist, or anything else. I don't live by the emperor of mankind's rules.

And any teenager who plays chess would no doubt be interested in a game that was "somehow like chess... but much bloodier."

The bearded one
29-11-2011, 17:19
pfeh, total nonsense, seemingly structured to create an evil image of doom. I'm not even sure how you connect racism and xenophobism to 40K.. unless we're talking about... erhm.. aliens? Humanity might be more united in 40K than in reality :p

madival
29-11-2011, 17:21
dear lord. where did he find those people O-o ? if almost any of those guys showed up in the shop I play in, we would politely tell him to leave. how did they find people so crazy/rediculous. even with twisting such things alot, that is still pretty out there.

Pyriel
29-11-2011, 17:23
I am a Greek too. this is the way greek society typicaly reacts to gaming. they react to "normal" hobbies(yup-hobbies that, in other societies might even make you popular) as "geekish" and to gaming hobbies as "of the devil".Like, ppl aint supposed to have hobbies, not sports and GOD no gaming, but just hang out with friends at various entertainment(cinemas, clubs, etc). otherwise, the person that does that must be a psycho.

THIS is what greek economy is all about-greek society's total refusal to accept a "get serious about stuff" mentality. I could go on for hours about this... I wont. Just, everyone, dont believe this kind of article affects the gaming community here-it REALLY doesnt.

musical
29-11-2011, 17:24
Are you sure this is not some sort of satirical humour that only Greek would understand and has been (to use a chiche) 'lost in translation'.

Pyriel
29-11-2011, 17:27
like i said, I'm Greek. this is no humour. articles about RPGs (for example) are accompanied by magic the gathering pics(all the same for greek society) and irrelevant real-life occult symbols as well as verses of church of satan etc

when i was in the military and ppl heard about me gaming, i was sent to a psychiatrist (seriously). this is greek society's reaction. heck, I dont know what my post-military work rep would be if i didnt have the "patriot that served in special forces" credentials.

Bunnahabhain
29-11-2011, 17:29
I'd make a guess that it's simply a journalist trying to find a way to fill pages with content cheaply, and in a way that doesn't mention strikes, economic meltdown, government in chaos, mass unemployment, pay cuts, and other unfortunate aspects of reality that people would rather not be reminded of....

de Selby
29-11-2011, 17:31
I read the English translation, it wasn't quite as bad as I expected. In general it seemed a bit... confused, which is what I would expect if you took a random assortment of greek men and asked them about their preferences in science fiction, their political views, and the connections between the two (likely none at all).

I think the author has missed the essential point that 40k was conceived in the UK as a dystopia with a high degree of ironic distancing (like 2000AD). It's supposed to be the worst world one can possibly imagine, this provides the backdrop for models (of warriors) and games (of war). It's not supposed to be a template for good living (though I'm sure there are a few lunatics out there who want to live in the Dark Millenium). The attraction is the same as that to a horror movie; the most important thing is that none of it's real.

musical
29-11-2011, 17:31
Hay sorry Pyriel man you just ninja'd me. I suppose newspaper always find silly things to rant on. I wouldn't take it too seriously. Mind you I read somewhere that certain religious groups in American links Pokemon to satanism :shifty:

Bunnahabhain
29-11-2011, 17:36
I suppose papers always find silly things to rant on. I wouldn't take it too seriously. Mind you I read somewhere that certain religious groups in American links Pokemon to satanism :shifty:

And I heard that some religious group in America elected this crazy Sarah Palin woman......but I don't believe stories like that. Even Matt Ward wouldn't write something so daft. :shifty:

Commissar Merces
29-11-2011, 17:37
Hay sorry Pyriel man you just ninja'd me. I suppose newspaper always find silly things to rant on. I wouldn't take it too seriously. Mind you I read somewhere that certain religious groups in American links Pokemon to satanism :shifty:
I mean have you seen that pikachu thing? Clearly satanic ;)

Lord_Squinty
29-11-2011, 17:45
Read the english translation, I didnt think it was that bad - pretty bad quotes from the interviewees though - probably they are more to blame for negative vibe than the reporter.

I got the impression the reporter didn't know anything about the game and got most of her source material from interviewing these guys...

Spell_of_Destruction
29-11-2011, 17:45
Poorly formed opinions are a dime a dozen particularly with the advent of the internet. The way I see it there is little point in getting worked up by hack journalism such as this.

IcedCrow
29-11-2011, 17:46
This read like an old 80s anti-D&D article would read. It made me lawl.

Shatterclaw
29-11-2011, 17:53
They are out there, in two ways, one, there under-educated and have not experiences life out sides there own small micro chasms..

Or more likely, two, They where made to appear as "crazy/ridiculous" with the reporter asking leading questions, and or probing for an answer so that it would paint us in a dim view.

I have played in shops with a lot of younger (ea kids). They are quite excitable, and when excited say the darn est things.

This reminds me of the ones back in the early eighties, that extreme christens kicked off ageist eighties toy lines and D&D.

Basically there was a out cry ageist occult themed toys, books and
Tv.

It just happen to coincided with he-man star wars and such.

I also recalled them burning said toys and books..

Strangely i am not bothered by the article. People fear what they don't understand. People have been reacting badly to non stander hobbies for years.

It would bother me if Newsweek, time and other media jumped on the band wagon.





dear lord. where did he find those people O-o ? if almost any of those guys showed up in the shop I play in, we would politely tell him to leave. how did they find people so crazy/rediculous. even with twisting such things alot, that is still pretty out there.

Shatterclaw
29-11-2011, 17:59
Low blow, Dood.. low blow... No one is Crazy enough to let her get elected. Run, Yes, let her win? no..

But yeah, we will give her her own Tv show.. I still think that was some thing to punish the world out side the States.


And I heard that some religious group in America elected this crazy Sarah Palin woman......but I don't believe stories like that. Even Matt Ward wouldn't write something so daft. :shifty:

juicifer
29-11-2011, 18:13
A slow news day in Greece eh?

Arhalius
29-11-2011, 18:16
What a load.

I am sure i read something like this years ago in a british paper. My dad was going on about and not wanting to buy me "little plastic men" for christmas.

Korraz
29-11-2011, 18:16
So there are Wargamers in Greece?
Huh. Who would have guessed. Interesting.

Helicon_One
29-11-2011, 18:17
Newspaper prints flawed sensationalist hack job reducing particular group of people to one-dimensional caricatures.

A shocking and unprecedented development.

Chem-Dog
29-11-2011, 18:29
Right, read the (translated) article and....Meh.

She totally didn't mention the blood sacrifices we have to make before the game starts, not the orgiastic ritual before rolling for reserves....:rolleyes:

Lord Damocles
29-11-2011, 18:33
In other news, yoga is the work of Satan.



...

Myrmidon616
29-11-2011, 18:43
If the Daily Mail covered this, I'd be interested to see how they would twist it to include house prices :D

Spider-pope
29-11-2011, 18:43
Reminds me of the good old days when rolling a few D20s was the quickest way to hell.

It's just the usual ignorant outsider looking in and completely missing the point. I'd be more offended but given the mess Greece is in right now i guess people need the diversion of a moronic journalist.


If the Daily Mail covered this, I'd be interested to see how they would twist it to include house prices :D

If we can link 40k to Diana somehow, we can guarantee this getting published in the Express.

Easy E
29-11-2011, 18:44
Beware Greeks bearing.... newspaper articles?

The bearded one
29-11-2011, 18:44
when i was in the military and ppl heard about me gaming, i was sent to a psychiatrist (seriously).

wow.. that's... that's pretty atrocious actually. In other countries some people might sometimes look down on it or find it geekish, but send you to a psychiatrist, really? That's like treating it like a mental ilness.


How did the shrink respond? :p

gutsmaka
29-11-2011, 19:08
the thing I learnt while playing 40k is to NOT go into war, because it sucks, and people die all te time in it. not the other way round

DuskRaider
29-11-2011, 19:32
Low blow, Dood.. low blow... No one is Crazy enough to let her get elected. Run, Yes, let her win? no..

But yeah, we will give her her own Tv show.. I still think that was some thing to punish the world out side the States.

Why not, man? She can, after all, see Russia all the way from Alaska. She could probably even spot the WMDs all the way in Iraq if we gave her an office in DC as well. :rolleyes: :wtf: :D

Pyriel
29-11-2011, 19:48
wow.. that's... that's pretty atrocious actually. In other countries some people might sometimes look down on it or find it geekish, but send you to a psychiatrist, really? That's like treating it like a mental ilness.


How did the shrink respond? :p

not good. had to stay for lots of days and ask for help from my Captain to prove what should be simple. luckily after recommendations and evaluation the shrink saw that i was healthy . it was hard initialy-even the shrink found it alarming. not like its a mental illness, but... like a *sign* that something was wrong.

(honest to whatever i hold sacred. this is the truth)

AlphariusOmegon20
29-11-2011, 20:13
Calm down. The article writer prolly has to lower herself to such sensational fare because she is incapable of writing objectively in the first place and also is prolly a **** poor "journalist" in general, considering she didn't even bother to look up the correct spelling of Khorne ( Which would have took all of 3 seconds to look up on the 'net.)

I wouldn't take it it very seriously, and prefer the "Emperor's Clothes" method here. Just point and laugh.

Commotionpotion
29-11-2011, 20:16
Dozens of horrible creatures, together with an Emperor-God (of the earthlings) and four Gods of Chaos, live in the blackest, obscurantist, religionist, militaristic, fundamentalist, authoritarian, racist, abominable and repulsive world ever conceived by the human mind.

I'm glad I wasn't drinking when I read that, or I'd be down one laptop by now. I always suspected there were many foreign equivalents to the UK Daily Mail.

But that quote...someone needs to give the article writer a little talk. About, ooh, seventy-five odd years ago, there was this funny little Austrian chap who became very popular for while, at least until he triggered a world war and incited genuine acts of mechanised mass genocide the like of which the world has never seen. It's a wild guess I know, but I THINK he might JUST edge out Rick Priestley et al for the 'Worst Dystopia Ever Conceived' Award. The journalist on the other hand is a shoe-in for 'Most Gratuitous Violation of Godwin's Law'.

On the other hand, the amount of LOLs I've had reading a lot of the comments posted here has made my evening :).

@Pyriel: all sympathy, dude. I mean, in most societies it's hard enough to get genuine mental illnesses recognised by medical professionals, and they send you to shrink for having a hobby? Seems in some places the lunatics are genuinely in charge of the asylum.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
29-11-2011, 20:19
That has got to have been the worst article I've ever read. It didn't have much of an introduction. By that I mean "here's what I think is going on. Read more to find out!"

The middle was confused and had no direction. There was no argument at all.

And entirely lacked any kind of logical conclusion.

I can only assume, I probably shouldn't, that the newspaper was the Greek version of the Sun, and not a more high brow broadsheet. This kind of **** poor journalism is what I'd expect from my local parochial rag than a national paper.

It was a bit anti American and British if I'm being honest. I suppose it's the attitude we'd expect in most European nations. The Greek economy is falling apart, so rather than admit the fault of her own country, blame the Brits and yanks. It's their fault.

It reminds me of a story that ran in the eighties here in the UK. A schizophrenic man, (was his name Michael Ryan?) sat on a roof and sniped many innocent passers by with a rifle. He killed a lot of people. It came out later he had an interest in roleplaying games. So the blame was squarely placed at gamings door.

loveless
29-11-2011, 20:22
Reminds me a bit of that website that decried GW for brainwashing children into mindless genocidal killing machines. I think it got taken down after the author received streams of sarcastic and mocking e-mails from the gaming community.

That said, this just reminds me that mass media is a terrible evil that will do anything to get attention and money...like the Kardashian family, really.

Goat of Yuggoth
29-11-2011, 20:29
This sounds exactly like Finland in the 80ies. I mean RPG's and satanism and all that has been always a connection point to journalists to make the news more popular, but this... ...this is weird.

I don't know what it is that makes some think wargaming is geeky or gay. Or occult. Even more so, this kind of thinking is implemented on education and work. In Finland it's a sure sign that you're a "failure or otherwise weird" if you're, say, a graphic designer or an artist, or a musician for that matter. Those are real jobs that people make more than a decent living of in most other countries.
Just goes to show that culture makes a really big difference on your paycheck.

Well, one more thing Finland and Greece share here. Calling a group of people xenophopic and/or racist makes you much worse than that.

Cheers,
Goat of Yuggoth

The Old Scholar
29-11-2011, 20:30
She seemed overly focused on the amount of money playing such a hobby costs...
For me, this seemed the real thrust of her article.
She attempted to show that the "Right Wing" educated men of Greece were spending their free time painting little soul/bloodthirsty Nazi-warrior-monster-alien-men...while confusing their reasons for playing...
It seemed a back-handed way for her to illuminate the "No wonder" our society is having trouble here in Greece.
A pretty farcical, transparent, and poorly fabricated attempt at shedding light on the world's economic woes...
I could be reading too deeply into it...but it seems strange that she would state the education and employment background of the majority of the players if not to veil her political agenda.
As an American, I've seen a rather interesting array of hobby wargamers in my many long years of collecting and playing. Yes, I've encountered racists...yes, I've encountered bleeding-heart Liberals...but the majority proved sweet, good-natured guys and gals--gasp, women?--that may have come from some introverted backgrounds, but who cares? Many were either retired military, or currently enlisted. Others were college students, while some were involved in the arts... And now that I live so near Silicon Valley...there are tons of engineers and programmers I've met...
So what does this say about hobby gamers in general?
Dunno...
But I can certainly say that journalists and their editorial views have done more to cause conflict and civil unrest than a few X-men reading Black Templar playing dice-rolling gamer geeks any day...

Konovalev
29-11-2011, 20:36
This article is not surprising. When people are frightened and angry at current events, give them something to be even more frightened and angered by. Mass media often tries to 1-up reality all throughout history. Think the black plague is bad? The giant ball of fire that gives us light has been getting closer and closer every year and will soon burn us all to cinder!

Edit: Didn't all the end of the world Y2k nonsense come at a time of poor economy? Same with all these rumors of 2012 being the end of the world more recently when america was suffering the worst economic downturn since the 20's or somesuch?

Dwane Diblie
29-11-2011, 20:40
40,000 AD? realy? I haven't heard (read) that referance since the Emperor was referenced as being Jesus reborn. All referance to modern day timelines and religins have well and truly been removed from the "fluff" (of whih she had the wrong diffinition for). I stoped taking it even remotly sriously at that point.

Intriging read though. Compleatly faulse. If anything I have gained from this hobby is a greater understanding of many different people, religins, tollerances and oppinions from around the world. It is a great cultural binding hobby.

(Why bring a sword to a gun fight? For the same reasons every modern fighting soldier has a Knife, Dagger or Bayonet. Stupid comment realy.)

massey
29-11-2011, 20:40
Well, the English version wasn't the best translation, so I can't comment on how well written the original article was. But it seems to me that this was one of two things. Either #1, somebody told her about this weird game where people play Nazis and demons, and she went to find out about it. Or #2, she went to a game store, and some of the more unusual customers decided to tell the pretty lady about their armies. In graphic detail.

I remember being in our local store about 10 years ago when a young mother and her 5 or 6 year old daughter came in to buy a Pokemon comic or something. At a table at the back of the store one of the roleplaying groups were playing D&D and screaming about anally raping virgins and things like that. I thought the store owner was going to pull one of the fake swords off the wall and stab them all to death with it.

You can't really blame the reporter if some guy who hasn't showered since 1987 comes up to her and starts showing her his Slaaneshi demon prince with greenstuffed extra boobs and a tentacle growing out of the crotch. When parents come into our local store I try to steer them away from certain guys. "Oh no, don't talk to Billy. Oh no, don't talk to that guy, either." I wonder how many people screamed "Waaagh!" or "Blood for the Blood God!" while she was standing there. I bet more than five.

This is why I have developed the ability to vanish like a master ninja whenever an attractive woman walks into the game store.

Captain Semper
29-11-2011, 21:08
OK, first off I have to say, as a Greek, that I'm touched that so many people realise the difficulties we are facing in Greece these days (years?). Thanks guys.

Another thing that I'm grateful about is that all of you guys have seen this article for what it is (an uninformed and biased account aiming at sensationalism and poorly writen at that) and did not generalise about Greeks or Greek wargamers in particular. The last thing we need right now is another negative stereotype hanging over our heads -as if we do not have enough of them already.

Truth is I got offended and angry about this article for like 2mins and then moved on dismissing the credibility of the "journalist" as just another clown too lazy to do a proper job and present the hobby in a just light. Whatever. Poor journalism is endemic in this country and our hobby is just the latest victim. :rolleyes:

rodmillard
29-11-2011, 21:10
:rolleyes:

Reading between the lines (of the translation - for all I worked in Cyprus a few years ago my Greek isn't up to much beyond "two beers please my friend is paying" ;)) I suspect one or more of the following:

a) "Look at what our highly intelligent and well educated young people are wasting their time/money /intellect [delete as appropriate] on while the country is in crisis. If this is what the next generation believe in what hope is there that they will get us out of this mess"
b) "Beware the fascists/neo-nazis/satanists [delete as appropriate] hiding in plain sight in our country. See how they are corrupting our youth. Better vote socialist/communist/christian democrat [ditto], just to stop them getting into power"
c) "See how the corruption in our society comes from a British company. Anything British must be bad, because it makes people Xenophobic! We should pull out of the EU so that we can close our borders and stop the spread of This Kind Of Thing"

Not the most inspiring piece of journalism, which is probably a good thing because apart from those vague subliminal messages most readers will have forgotten about it by next week (if they didn't skip over the article to try and find the TV listings in the first place)

Grocklock
29-11-2011, 21:15
I do find the article to be, poor journalisum writting. Trying to over simpufy a diverse game with so meany aspects to it. Shame

massey
29-11-2011, 21:15
I don't know what it is that makes some think wargaming is geeky or gay. Or occult. Even more so, this kind of thinking is implemented on education and work. In Finland it's a sure sign that you're a "failure or otherwise weird" if you're, say, a graphic designer or an artist, or a musician for that matter.

Wait, you don't understand what makes people think wargaming is geeky? Seriously?

I know what I'm doing is nerdy. A cute girl in my office just walked in to ask me a question and I closed the Warseer window until she left, post unfinished.

As far as being a musician, artist, or graphic designer, in the US how it's viewed depends on how much money you make. Are you rich? Then you're a success. Are you a struggling artist with obvious talent who might some day become rich? Then you're cool and edgy. Are you struggling and living in your parents' basement? Then you're a loser.

As far as the hobby goes, if someone attractive, well dressed, and articulate were to talk to a reporter about the game, you'll get a much better review than if it's a guy in his 30s who has never seen a naked woman who wasn't on a computer screen. But you have a quote from a kid from America who says "these guys are pretty much Nazis, and back home everyone who plays them are also Nazis". What you need is a good looking guy with nice arms and gorgeous hair to tell her "40K is darkly ironic, the background is full of political commentary on existing social structure, and the painting allows me to indulge my artistic side". He shows her an Eldar grav tank with beautiful scrollwork and harlequin faces and she oohs and aahs. She puts a hand on his bicep and they leave together.

Instead you have a fat kid with acne with an unpainted Nurgle army who tells her he wants to be a vampire or a cylon or something when he grows up. Then he starts hyperventilating.

Makure
29-11-2011, 21:23
I think people are missing the most important bit of the article,
sure the reporting is a disjointed ramble in searchfor a scapegoat.

but the photos

those are some stunning tables.
Well made terrain and fully painted armies
congratulations to the gamers.

Brother Dimetrius
29-11-2011, 21:31
those are some stunning tables.
Well made terrain and fully painted armies
congratulations to the gamers.

Indeed! :p

Lord Malorne
29-11-2011, 21:32
Can't say it bothered me, the way it was written shows they writer has a higher opinion of themselves than the topic at hand, as soon as I noticed that I could not take it seriously.

Spell_of_Destruction
29-11-2011, 21:36
Wait, you don't understand what makes people think wargaming is geeky? Seriously?

I know what I'm doing is nerdy. A cute girl in my office just walked in to ask me a question and I closed the Warseer window until she left, post unfinished.

As far as being a musician, artist, or graphic designer, in the US how it's viewed depends on how much money you make. Are you rich? Then you're a success. Are you a struggling artist with obvious talent who might some day become rich? Then you're cool and edgy. Are you struggling and living in your parents' basement? Then you're a loser.

As far as the hobby goes, if someone attractive, well dressed, and articulate were to talk to a reporter about the game, you'll get a much better review than if it's a guy in his 30s who has never seen a naked woman who wasn't on a computer screen. But you have a quote from a kid from America who says "these guys are pretty much Nazis, and back home everyone who plays them are also Nazis". What you need is a good looking guy with nice arms and gorgeous hair to tell her "40K is darkly ironic, the background is full of political commentary on existing social structure, and the painting allows me to indulge my artistic side". He shows her an Eldar grav tank with beautiful scrollwork and harlequin faces and she oohs and aahs. She puts a hand on his bicep and they leave together.

Instead you have a fat kid with acne with an unpainted Nurgle army who tells her he wants to be a vampire or a cylon or something when he grows up. Then he starts hyperventilating.

To put it simply, there are plenty socially confident and successful people who play 40k. Playing 40k does not make you a loser. However, the hobby does attract the socially inept like flies to s*** which is the main reason it is considered geeky. There is definitely an element of 'Walter Mitty' to it.

If someone with no knowledge of the hobby went into a store and found 40k being played by Armani models then I'm sure it would affect their attitude towards the game. However, Games Workshop stores are invariably filled with geeky looking youths (I know - I used to be one of them).

Brother Dimetrius
29-11-2011, 21:37
On a slightly more serious note, it's something that I see in my own country as well and it's always bothered me : the condescending tone journalists tend to adopt when describing something outside the mainstream.

I don't get it. Journalism is important obviously and an integral part of a free society, but to be blunt journalists don't tend to be on the top of the foodchain intellectually. I've read newspaper pieces where on the one hand the writer will lament something along the lines of "wow understanding how percentages in a budget work is hard" and at the same time disparaging scientific or engineering pursuits (them being nerds etc...)

Maybe compensating somehow? :)

massey
29-11-2011, 21:40
Can't say it bothered me, the way it was written shows they writer has a higher opinion of themselves than the topic at hand, as soon as I noticed that I could not take it seriously.

You get the same thing here with articles about people who collect old bottle caps or anything unusual. Some old guy makes his own solar panels to power a Christmas tree for his ant farm, and out come the reporters. The cute girl smiles for the camera and looks at her boss like "why did you make me do this?" And he just laughs.

Gertjan
29-11-2011, 21:54
Hmm, not sure where to begin to be honest. I don't know but the acticle came across as a rather disjointed mess of quotes and anecdotes without any structure whatsoever. didn't really read very well (partly maybe the result of translation but even with translation it would have been horribly written). Sure, it's bad what she writes but the quotes don't help that much either, all in all I can't really take it seriously actually. It's such low quality writing that it must be the local newspaper intern who wrote it. Never mind the actual contents, it's a crime to publish such sloppy work.:D

Wonder whether GW would take kindly to it's IP being used in an article like that without permission come to think of it, as it did have pictures I think of the 40K logo somewhere. And as mentioned before, the tables and mini's did look nice, good going for the gamers I'd say :p.

massey
29-11-2011, 22:15
Hmm, not sure where to begin to be honest. I don't know but the acticle came across as a rather disjointed mess of quotes and anecdotes without any structure whatsoever. didn't really read very well (partly maybe the result of translation but even with translation it would have been horribly written). Sure, it's bad what she writes but the quotes don't help that much either, all in all I can't really take it seriously actually. It's such low quality writing that it must be the local newspaper intern who wrote it. Never mind the actual contents, it's a crime to publish such sloppy work.:D

Wonder whether GW would take kindly to it's IP being used in an article like that without permission come to think of it, as it did have pictures I think of the 40K logo somewhere. And as mentioned before, the tables and mini's did look nice, good going for the gamers I'd say :p.

GW's IP isn't at issue at all. This is a newspaper article. They can show pictures of GW's models all they want. If they could have, don't you think British Petroleum would have stopped the news from using their trademarked name and images back when they spilled oil all over the damn place?

Robotlord
29-11-2011, 22:16
I wonder how economies would fare if this area of the market was removed entirely. By this Iean all wargames, all computer games which have their bases from wargaming, and in fact other things like model railways , as they too use modelling supplies. I,d hazard a guess that this would have a serious wffect on most economies in this world.

kalon
29-11-2011, 22:37
the problem with the press of any nation is that they have the uncanny ability to take whatever a person says in an interview and make it sound as though they are Satan incarnate. So some girl dislikes 40k and those that enjoy the hobby, in her next article she be showing a clear link between players of Sonic and an an increase in the availabilty of Metamphetamine! Silly moo!

GenerationTerrorist
29-11-2011, 22:48
That article was priceless. I needed a good laugh.

The problem is when people are blatantly unable to distinguish between fiction and reality. So long as I know I'm only pushing a model of Dante around on the table and not, deep down, thinking that I really am some kind of superhuman, gold-clad, bloodthirsty puritanical headcase on a mission from God, then I am quite content.

As for the political or religious views commented on, I am sure that in any free country people are allowed to think/believe what they want. No matter how distasteful it may seem to others.

I can see it now....We had Computer Games and Movies being blamed for mass shootings, etc. Soon it will be because some unhinged mad person went a bit crazy with an axe after their Herald of Tzeentch failed it's Ward/Invulnerable save. Then we will all be labelled as social lepers (more so!) and potentially dangerous individuals hell bent on stealing from old ladies.

*Rolls Eyes*

Flayed 0ne
29-11-2011, 22:52
racist, xenophobic and sexist....as if the rest of humanity wasnt....and the article clearly is... :shifty:

Verm1s
29-11-2011, 23:11
I'm glad I wasn't drinking when I read that, or I'd be down one laptop by now. I always suspected there were many foreign equivalents to the UK Daily Mail.

Given the spartist speil that Scaryscarymushroom quoted, I'd say it's more like a foreign equivalent to the Guardian.


Reminds me a bit of that website that decried GW for brainwashing children into mindless genocidal killing machines. I think it got taken down after the author received streams of sarcastic and mocking e-mails from the gaming community.

I think I know the one you mean. 'Progressive' mothers' newsletter type thing?

UberBeast
30-11-2011, 00:42
I love all the nonsense about North American US gamers being a bunch of right-wing, racist nazis. It was written like all of us are, but especially the US...

Scalebug
30-11-2011, 01:24
Heh, reminds me of the mid-90's here in Sweden, there were a couple of writers on a moral-panic crusade against role-playing games, and associated hobbies (miniature wargaming got its share of that attack in some weirdly mangled quotes from players and rulebooks on how Necromunda trained you in urban gang warfare tactics, or something along those lines...)

What baffles me though, is; Why this malice? Especially since it apparently was even more before it was translated from its native greek... what did wargamers do to you, reporter? :confused:

I don't think I've seen a negative article on gaming like this before, it is usually the same weird or cute misrepresentations patched together from over-enthusiastic tournament attendees explaining what the game is about, and some mentioning on how the players spend hours and hours putting together and painting their miniatures, things like that...

This just reads like school bullying of "uncool nerds", and that is even without touching the journalistic aspects of the article, I mean; there might well have been someone unfortunately relying the impression of what gamers are (Damn you, american neo-nazi 40K players! You were not supposed to be found out! :p), but really, that "information" would at least to me have seemed suspect, and I would have gone and done a bit more research on it before going to press.

Reinholt
30-11-2011, 06:27
Given how badly they run their country, I think the only sensible response by an individual is to believe the opposite of whatever the Greeks think.

To that end, this article is strangely very positive on wargaming.

:cool:

Pyriel
30-11-2011, 07:14
about terrain/well-painted armies;
as a Greek, (i wont comment on the article anmore-you alrdy saw what we're dealing with, and we're used to it) i am proud to report that most of our tournaments are no-composition scores, well-placed/made terrain AND fully-painted armies-only, combining both a somewhat competitive feel *and* lots of the painting aspect (while the tourney winners award includes no comp or other "soft" scores, there *is* a seperate award for the best-painted army; usualy a Battleforce of his choice)

I am not telling this cause of bias-i was more than willing ti dis on so many bad greek characteristics,even in another post that gt me a warning from the mod team who thought i was a non-Greek racist(no hard feelings, its their job); but fair is fair, we *do* have that going for us. for a wargaming community created about a decade ago, imo thats progress.

Arandmoor
30-11-2011, 07:36
From the blog...


One gamer actually says : "I've seen in America (US) the ideologies of the army and the player become one. I've even seen a player with swastikas tattooed all over his body". Is that true my American brothers? Is there a secret nazi militia that plays 40k in the US? Bunch of rubbish I'd say.


I dunno...was the gamer in question from Idaho by any chance???

Aluinn
30-11-2011, 07:40
Read the english translation, I didnt think it was that bad - pretty bad quotes from the interviewees though - probably they are more to blame for negative vibe than the reporter.

I got the impression the reporter didn't know anything about the game and got most of her source material from interviewing these guys...

I partially share that impression (it wasn't as awfully slanderous as I though it would be, and the first half of it is relatively positive, in truth), but I think the author really goes entirely off the rails when she fails to distinguish the portrayal of something in fiction from its endorsement by the author(s) of said fiction, for which there's little excuse given that she makes it plain that she understands the background of the game (fluff) to be a fictional story (or stories), being featured in novels etc.

So if this woman, who I will assume is "educated" (I don't really understand why she put quotations around this descriptor in the article given that she plainly meant it literally, but I'll return the favor :)), knows that 40K background is sci-fantasy fiction, why does she assume that the appearance of a fascist society therein is meant to encourage a fascist ideology amongst the readers? Surely she must have read many books which portray such societies in an attempt to show the evils of them--at least, I would hope, else she has an odd background for a journalist--so why is this different? Because it is connected to a game played with models? That makes no sense.

But I'm entirely sure there is an explanation for the way this thing is written, and, though she back-handedly accuses 40K gamers of hypocrisy in the article, it seems to be that she has some sort of beef against England, since she makes so much of the game coming from there in the same breath as she begins talking about the horribly negative, fascist, xenophobic connotations of the background. She also decided to quote one player, who we aren't even completely sure has ever traveled to the U.S., spouting some very odd BS about how neo-Nazis abound amongst American 40K players. At least, that's the implication. And, yeah, this is something the interviewee said rather than something from the author's imagination, apparently, but realize that she probably heard the players at the tournament she attended say a great many things, had to choose only a handful of select quotes to use in the article, and felt that this, of all, should be one of them.

So this journalist seems to want to make unflattering implications about English-speaking society for some reason or other, and is willing to thoroughly distort all reason in order to do so, in spite of almost surely knowing better. Any well-read person is completely aware that fiction about oppressive societies does not necessarily endorse oppression and, indeed, that it's usually doing exactly the opposite, as fiction (or non-fiction) endorsing oppressive societies almost never actually portrays them as being oppressive in the least.

I would guess that her personal feelings about the U.S. and the U.K. are that these are fascist societies and that the accusations about gamers appearing in her article are really digs at these countries and possibly their people. That she was willing to essentially throw gamers under the bus in order to create an excuse for this political, ideological grandstanding only makes it that much worse.

EDIT: Just to be clear, though I'm an American, I'm truly not offended that people abroad might think of the U.S. government or even U.S. society at large as having fascist tendencies; there are legitimate arguments to be made for and against that, and I won't really comment on it, but I just wanted to say that's not what gets me about this article. Rather, the problem is that it's entirely off-topic, paints wargamers in a negative light, and also that it's intellectually dishonest of her--if she feels that way, fine, but claiming to "discover" things about it in her examination of wargaming is a complete load, and I believe she knows it to be a complete load.

On the humorous side, I can imagine this woman talking to her editor:

Journalist: I want to write a really hard-hitting article about how the military-industrial complex in the United States has subverted the government of the nation and instituted an agenda of fascist, militaristic policy which endangers world peace!

Editor: Well, we need you to write a fluff piece about this geeky sci-fi wargame.

Journalist: You'll never take me seriously! I hate you!

Mr. Ultra
30-11-2011, 09:28
Aaaand after this journalism masterpiece, GW sales in Greece dramatically increase, saving the Greek economy and ending the eurozone crisis. All thanks to Satan!

Nautyboy
30-11-2011, 09:33
From the Paper: Dozens of horrible creatures, together with an Emperor-God (of the earthlings) and four Gods of Chaos, live in the blackest, obscurantist, religionist, militaristic, fundamentalist, authoritarian, racist, abominable and repulsive world ever conceived by the human mind.

Sounds very much like madness.......

(I'll let someone else fill in the rest).

shelfunit.
30-11-2011, 09:53
when i was in the military and ppl heard about me gaming, i was sent to a psychiatrist (seriously). this is greek society's reaction. heck, I dont know what my post-military work rep would be if i didnt have the "patriot that served in special forces" credentials.

Hmmmm...

High Level military official: I hear that "Pyriel" was playing with his "toys" again...send him to the psychologist - then get him back out quick for rifle range training, we need him ready to send off to kill people who have a different ideological view point to our own... yes, that will sort him out.

It seems that the journalist was scraping the barrel in an attempt to portray a non-Greek entity as a front for a combined US/UK attack on Greek society. The additional mentioning of the vast expense (wait until greece hears about mantic...) to greek citizens as an unspoken analogy to foreign sources taking greeces monies, and it seems like the author is blindly reaching out to convince the Greek populace that it's not their fault the economy is in such dire straits, it's eveyone elses fault.

drear
30-11-2011, 10:00
i dont know whether its because its been trasnlated twice, and therefore doesnt make alot of sense.

but thats one aweful peice of writing. it sounds like a college magazine project, an excersiee in reviewing somthing made by a child.

it jumps into topics and out of them, and staggers between them.
at one point it starts using in-game terms like fluff, without an explination or an understanding of what it means.

and the use of .... between words or sentances is silly.

ted1138
30-11-2011, 10:09
Maybe this is how we look to the outside world? :(

I know when anyone tells me about the latest goings on in their favourite TV soap operas, I'm quite disgusted by them(assault, robbery, theft, rape, murder, incest, etc, etc..), how can those subjects be considered entertainment? :eek: Maybe if I just took a bit more interest, and watched them, and didn't base my opinions on just my imagination, I'd see they're not that bad after all...

rodmillard
30-11-2011, 10:12
I love the statistic she came up with that "5 out of 15" people interviewed expressed "some form of racist or xenophobic belief." Ignoring the fact that 15 subjects is such a small data set as to be statistically meaningless, if you conducted the same survey in Britain you'd be lucky to find 5 people that didn't (even if it was only at the level of moaning about immigrants taking all the jobs or calling French people "Frogs" and Americans "Septics"). Greek Wargamers must be a very tolerant lot!

As for the thing about people reading Nazi literature - I don't know about Greece, but over here it's on the GCSE curriculum, since the module "The Causes of the Second World War" requires you to critique propaganda from both sides. So assuming an even split between History and Geography options (until recently the National Curriculum required you to do at least one of the two, some people study both) that would give you a ballpark figure of 50% aged between 16 and 35. Among wargamers, who tend to be interested in military history for some reason, the figure is likely to be far higher...

orkmiester
30-11-2011, 10:49
As for the thing about people reading Nazi literature - I don't know about Greece, but over here it's on the GCSE curriculum, since the module "The Causes of the Second World War" requires you to critique propaganda from both sides. So assuming an even split between History and Geography options (until recently the National Curriculum required you to do at least one of the two, some people study both) that would give you a ballpark figure of 50% aged between 16 and 35. Among wargamers, who tend to be interested in military history for some reason, the figure is likely to be far higher...

indeed...

though on the military history side- i like that kind of stuff but i like to keep that kind of stuff mostly private as people can be funny. Though i do tend to have a little more knolwdege of reality than some... some of the views i have heard:rolleyes: i always point out 'yes that maybe how it should work, but it doesn't:rolleyes:'

though studying for a history degree has led me to the conclusion- try to keep them apart otherwise you will hate it:angel::(

on the Greeks the reporter has a cheek... the Greeks possibly could send the world economy down the drain a second time taking us down with them for no good reason:eyebrows: I wonder what the ancient Greeks would think? hang on that could result in horrible violence *thoughts terminated*.

the nerdy thing doesn't exist really i happen to have come across folks who have had connections with the hobby wherever i go, its like it follows you around:shifty::eek:. its the newbies to the hobby who give it that image sometimes, as their mates at school can't see the point.

it just shows a lack of understanding- the hobby is a social one it encourages reading and numeracy skills (something to be encouraged...) and it gets you meeting new people- the folks i know are some of the best people i have ever known.

finally (no offence intended here...:cool:) its typical of those religious bods to bosh such things due to the hinted references to the devil etc... i couldn't give a monkey's its the 21st century:p

DeeKay
30-11-2011, 12:15
Honestly, it would be more sensible and productive to give this article the attention it deserves.

With regards,
Dan.

Algovil
30-11-2011, 12:44
that being zero? =)

The author come out as very close minded. Of course various political thoughts can be found everywhere, but if anything I believe the gaming community have lower percentage of people willing to follow a strong leader (god included here?), fascisms.. On the contrary I find that gamers often are educated, yes, not "educated"...with open minds, and seeing the game for what it is, not fascism, more of... science fiction, a satire of the world. Anyway... not trying to generalize here, its just that.. aargh..

This is not journalism, this is crap. A set agenda, no eyes for anything to change that point of view, blind to irony. I found this quote very fun for example:

"I also chose an army based on the fluff - I play with dark eldar..."(he stops to think)"in the end they are psychic vampires..." (pausing and saying out very loud)... "I don't even care about my army's fluff!".

The author did not.

Anyway, just laugh it of, we can not all agree.

DeeKay
30-11-2011, 12:47
Yeah, pretty much.

With regards,
Dan.

Goat of Yuggoth
30-11-2011, 13:39
Wait, you don't understand what makes people think wargaming is geeky? Seriously?


No, I do get it based on the average guy that "toys around" with sci-fi games. What I don't get is when did it become such a nerdy hobby? I mean, Egyptians toyed around with miniatures, and they weren't considered nerds (or then there's a dark secret conspiracy in our history). Besides, as you pointed out, not everyone is that fa/tg/uy in a basement jacking off to the Chaos Gods to make his dice rolls better.




What you need is a good looking guy with nice arms and gorgeous hair to tell her "40K is darkly ironic, the background is full of political commentary on existing social structure, and the painting allows me to indulge my artistic side". He shows her an Eldar grav tank with beautiful scrollwork and harlequin faces and she oohs and aahs. She puts a hand on his bicep and they leave together.


You pretty much described my kind of response to a journalist, I know they try to bend my words so I'll be really careful if some newspaper wants to interview me as a wargamer. Guaranteed, I don't have a chiselled body but usually I handle the press really smooth. Maybe it's got something to do with the fact that they assume I'm a grumpy metal guy and I turn out a charmy young man instead...

And there's another point. Does the press take an edge on these hobbies because quite many of wargamers are metal listeners? In this case I can just imagine the journalist making this article and twisting the words of the interviewed persons to the music that was playing in - whatever location she stumbled upon.

But seriously, I remember one time I was supposed to do a promotional evening to tabletop games and painting at a local library (back when I was a blueshirt) and I wasn't allowed to promote it with 40k posters, because the "dudes in the pictures had guns". Yes, there had been a school shooting some half a year ago, and I guess that was the point of the shopkeepers/librarians... ...Wait, what? What was the point? "We don't want people with guns on the posters because that might encourage kids to start shooting people in their schools"? Look at the TV if you don't want to influence kids, painting a Space Marine (yes, with a GUN) never says anything about murdering people...


Paranoia all around, what will we sacrilege next? We've already done pop, rock, heavy metal, RPGs, tabletop games, The Sun, everything that we eat, smoking, drinking, sex, marriages and Peter Pan...

Sometimes I'm quite astonished at how can people be so blind...

Cheers,
Goat

KarlPedder
30-11-2011, 13:57
Yep the worlds going down the toilet and the cause? People who play with toy soldiers who knew?



Wait, you don't understand what makes people think wargaming is geeky? Seriously?

I know what I'm doing is nerdy. A cute girl in my office just walked in to ask me a question and I closed the Warseer window until she left, post unfinished.


Wow your joking right?

I've never been in a situation where I was embaressed by my hobbies.....

Corvus Corone
30-11-2011, 15:19
Wait, what? You guys aren't right wing racist xenophobes? But I thought...

Well, this is awkward.

=)

Verm1s
30-11-2011, 15:53
All thanks to Satan!


finally (no offence intended here...:cool:) its typical of those religious bods to bosh such things due to the hinted references to the devil etc... i couldn't give a monkey's its the 21st century:p

Couple of crossed wires here. Read:


From the Paper: ...the blackest, obscurantist, religionist, militaristic, fundamentalist, authoritarian, racist, abominable and repulsive world ever conceived by the human mind.

You're right on one thing, Orkmeister. It is the 21st century. There're brand new reasons to try and whip up public panic.

ted1138
30-11-2011, 17:08
Wait, what? You guys aren't right wing racist xenophobes? But I thought...

Well, this is awkward.

=)



No, this is abuse. You want 12A, next door. :evilgrin:

Brother Loki
30-11-2011, 17:21
I love the way she's gone to an event where 40 people are actively socialising with each other, and somehow come away with the view that these are people who don't go out or socialise.

It's odd because the early part of the article seems to be relatively positive, in that it talks about the dedication involved in learning the rules, the strategic thinking, the craft aspects and so on.

What a strange article.

Pyriel
30-11-2011, 17:34
@brother loki: i already explained how a greek is not supposed to be focused/dedicated , not even to sports, let alone other hobbies, and is inestead expected to "just relax , watch TV/movies , go for drinks and have fun".
hence, the first part was supposed(by her) to be negative too.

Goat of Yuggoth
30-11-2011, 17:50
What, Greeks aren't supposed to socialize? How come you have teachers or salesmen over there? :D

Jokes aside, these replies by Greeks show a certain humbleness of the culture, you feel sorry of what she said, yet don't blame the society or the cultural influences in Greece. I'd been real mad if some Finnish reporter had done this here. And I'd have blurted it out bluntly here. I'd have worded out the rage and emotion instantly.

I feel sorry for this, but rest assured, it really didn't influence my concept of Greek society, rather this has been an opportunity to the most of us to learn something new. I'd also like to thank all of you Greeks of the replies here, it helps to understand a lot about this article.

One question to you guys though: What do you think are the influences of this? Do parents in Greece hide their kids because of this satanist church of Nazi Workshop? Will there be riots? Will sales dwindle, or burst into new heights because of this? I'd really like to know.

Cheers,
Goatee

Captain Semper
30-11-2011, 17:52
@brother loki: i already explained how a greek is not supposed to be focused/dedicated , not even to sports, let alone other hobbies, and is inestead expected to "just relax , watch TV/movies , go for drinks and have fun".
hence, the first part was supposed(by her) to be negative too.

True that. A culture where being laid back is a God given right... And the world owes you too!

Pyriel
30-11-2011, 17:59
captain semper: i criticize that attitude a lot.on these forums, on other forums, in real life... i hope your comment wasnt directed towards me.

other than that, i AGREE with your comment. most greek ppl DO feel that way. explains a lot, right?

Captain Semper
30-11-2011, 18:04
I was actually in full agreement with you. And from what I read, you and I seem to be on the same page... BTW I'm sorry about you psychiatrist peripetia :) that was funny in a not so funny way...

Pyriel
30-11-2011, 18:07
haha, ninja'd, didnt see you were Greek too(same city too) ;) explains how accurate your comment was dude.

blackcherry
30-11-2011, 19:20
How odd. Despite the subtly sledgehamered in themes running through the article, its just very poorly written. From what small amounts of the language I have picked up, it seems, in the sense of writing style, something written for a tabloid like the Daily Mail or something like Hello or Bella (or those sort of rag mags with titles like 'My granddaughter was raped by my Nazi grandson- from beyond the grave!!!)

Sure I get the implications "foreign companies are conspiring to turn your kids into fascists", but it does'nt excuse such poor research, contradictions in the same sentence or basic errors in sentence construction. But then I'm wierd like that.

massey
30-11-2011, 19:21
@brother loki: i already explained how a greek is not supposed to be focused/dedicated , not even to sports, let alone other hobbies, and is inestead expected to "just relax , watch TV/movies , go for drinks and have fun".
hence, the first part was supposed(by her) to be negative too.

See, this bothers me more than the article. You're not supposed to be dedicated to anything? I'm all for relaxation, but wow. Perhaps it's because Americans tend to define themselves by their job, and work dominates our lives, but to define your national identity as just going with the flow and taking things easy, maybe that's why the Greek economy isn't doing so great.

Plus it's totally acceptable here to punch a hole in the wall when your sports team loses. Sports, after all, are a metaphor for success in life and business. Give 110%. Win win win!

The bearded one
30-11-2011, 19:39
maybe that's why the Greek economy isn't doing so great

Some cultural attitudes are indeed a part of the problem, so that bills aren't being paid but noone bothers to enforce it, or in an extreme case people were still getting welfare benefits after they had been dead for years.

Pyriel
30-11-2011, 19:43
Some cultural attitudes are indeed a part of the problem, so that bills aren't being paid but noone bothers to enforce it, or in an extreme case people were still getting welfare benefits after they had been dead for years.

i take it you're probably also from Greece, as the things you describe are the rule, not the exception ;)

and YES, this is part of why greek economy isnt doing so great; the debt of 350 billions isnt that high-other countries have several trillions of debt.like, countries with 7 times the greek populace owing more than 15 times the greek debt(so effectively like two equal countries and one owes double). the thing is, greek economy isnt competitive enough to produce and cover that small debt. see? competitive. what greek culture doesnt get.

Captain Semper
30-11-2011, 19:56
I'm afraid this thread deviates from 40k and will be locked soon. Pyriel got it right. Lack of competitiveness is the problem here... But I beg to differ in regards that the debt is small. It s not. The debt/GDP is in the region of 150% while budget deficit (after 2years of effort) is still c10% of GDP. What might help would be growth which for 2011 would even less the -5% (!) and the forecast for 2012 is less than -2% and is likely to be exceeded. So the 350bn of debt are subject to increase... It's like monopoly (the board game): there is no such thing as "a lot of money" but rather money you have or don't have... The future is bleak and the shoddy article in the newspaper is really not worth the attention.

Pyriel
30-11-2011, 20:02
greece would have money if it had a more competitive culture ;) then less finance problems.

but no, i think the problem is relevant: this thread deals with issues a 40k gaming community deals with. and we gotta agree, as far as already-misunderstood hobbies go, wargaming isnt realy in a good place.

but this letter changes nothing. its "same ol' story". its not the source of the problem, rather, its the result of the problem. just evidence of what typicaly happens. so it doesnt cause additional problems. thats all, dont worry much.

The bearded one
30-11-2011, 20:17
i take it you're probably also from Greece, as the things you describe are the rule, not the exception ;)

Holland :)

Satan
30-11-2011, 20:22
Aaaand after this journalism masterpiece, GW sales in Greece dramatically increase, saving the Greek economy and ending the eurozone crisis. All thanks to Satan!

What'd I do?

I only deal in guitars and other stuff with strings. Like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpOAnWEyzt8

Capamaru
30-11-2011, 20:34
Well, the English version wasn't the best translation, so I can't comment on how well written the original article was. But it seems to me that this was one of two things. Either #1, somebody told her about this weird game where people play Nazis and demons, and she went to find out about it. Or #2, she went to a game store, and some of the more unusual customers decided to tell the pretty lady about their armies. In graphic detail.

I remember being in our local store about 10 years ago when a young mother and her 5 or 6 year old daughter came in to buy a Pokemon comic or something. At a table at the back of the store one of the roleplaying groups were playing D&D and screaming about anally raping virgins and things like that. I thought the store owner was going to pull one of the fake swords off the wall and stab them all to death with it.

You can't really blame the reporter if some guy who hasn't showered since 1987 comes up to her and starts showing her his Slaaneshi demon prince with greenstuffed extra boobs and a tentacle growing out of the crotch. When parents come into our local store I try to steer them away from certain guys. "Oh no, don't talk to Billy. Oh no, don't talk to that guy, either." I wonder how many people screamed "Waaagh!" or "Blood for the Blood God!" while she was standing there. I bet more than five.

This is why I have developed the ability to vanish like a master ninja whenever an attractive woman walks into the game store.

Well being a Greek gamer I am gonna tell you that it is a very rare commodity to see a girl in the tournies let alone a girl that is "interested" to learn what a bunch of guys is doing playing with toy soldiers instead of being out and having "fun". I bet a lot of the guys there went banana trying to explain how bad ass is the game focusing more on the fluff behind it that makes the game come alive! Although her reaction to a certain degree is justified I don't think she got into anymore trouble trying to find out what this game is really about, for example joining a forum and starting a polite conversation before calling US 40k players racists! You can even let people know that you are making an article on a newspaper and let them express their opinions. But I guess if it boils down to the fact that we are a bunch of 30+ years old playing with toy soldiers then that's not match of a story right? Blood for the Blood god, fluff nazi and racist people that's a catchy subject! I feel really sorry that the first time a newspaper got around writing about 40k and miniature games as a whole they managed to fill 4 pages with %$@%#@$#@$%.


@brother loki: i already explained how a greek is not supposed to be focused/dedicated , not even to sports, let alone other hobbies, and is inestead expected to "just relax , watch TV/movies , go for drinks and have fun".
hence, the first part was supposed(by her) to be negative too.

Pyriel I have read all your replies and you my friend are talking nonsense! How on earth you jumped to the conclusion that gamers are outsiders in the Greek society and miniature games along with Rpg's are considered the doings of Satan?! Please explain yourself cause your words along with this stupid article make people believe that Greek society is left somewhere in the Dark Ages.


What, Greeks aren't supposed to socialize? How come you have teachers or salesmen over there? :D

Jokes aside, these replies by Greeks show a certain humbleness of the culture, you feel sorry of what she said, yet don't blame the society or the cultural influences in Greece. I'd been real mad if some Finnish reporter had done this here. And I'd have blurted it out bluntly here. I'd have worded out the rage and emotion instantly.


Jokes aside I feel sorry about the poor b@$I@R|) that is paying her salary to write (r@P like that! No there will not be any riots because of this but I am certainly never gonna buy the newspaper again.
Regarding our economical situation I am not gonna comment on this topic but I would be really interested to hear your opinion if a topic comes up.

Captain Semper
30-11-2011, 20:47
Capamaru I think you misread Pyriel... Other than that I also feel sorry about the fact that the first time our hobby got some coverage from a widely read paper it was done is such a bad light.

Pyriel
30-11-2011, 20:51
because of previous articles, not on 40k, but "gaming as a whole". there *have* been previous articles(albeit mostly from lame pop magazines, not newspapers) even with reporters visiting FLGS, including my previous area's FLGS. every time, they twist everything you say to make it look bad.

i'm just tired of this. and stop being in denial-greek society is sick, twisted, and we must change. when it is common for a doctor toblackmail you into giving him additional money during an operation (a custom we greeks call "fakelaki"), something is wrong. period. i dont wish to talk about this anymore. it can only produce further thread derailment. cya.

Capamaru
30-11-2011, 20:53
Capamaru I think you misread Pyriel... Other than that I also feel sorry about the fact that the first time our hobby got some coverage from a widely read paper it was done is such a bad light.

I feel sorry too but I don't believe that other than the "Workshop of Devil" 40k was gonna reach the biased media of our country as a topic.

On the matter of Pyriel well there aren't much to misread.


I am a Greek too. this is the way greek society typicaly reacts to gaming. they react to "normal" hobbies(yup-hobbies that, in other societies might even make you popular) as "geekish" and to gaming hobbies as "of the devil".Like, ppl aint supposed to have hobbies, not sports and GOD no gaming, but just hang out with friends at various entertainment(cinemas, clubs, etc). otherwise, the person that does that must be a psycho.
.

Pyriel
30-11-2011, 21:11
yes, pentagrams and rituals and stuff had their pics right besides gaming stuff in articles. imagine a single page with 3 pics; a pic from a D & D sourcebook, a pic of 3 "supposedly gaming" people who played magic the gathering while using dice(wtf? M:tG with dice?) and a pic of Anton LaVey. in the same page and article.

they dont WANT to understand. in most cases, these reporters decide what they write before they do the interviewes and just make questions to lead ppl into saying what they wanna hear.(irrelevant to article: a reporter friend has told me this is common practice for reporters; directors tell them to write an article presenting subject X in manner Y and they make questions so that after they take/copy/paste answers, subject X is presented in manner Y. its not anti-gaming; many subjects are treated this way, cause this policy sells to the papers' target group) sad, but true.

Harwammer
30-11-2011, 22:44
This seems to be a case of making the evidence fit theory rather than the reverse. At least it provided an amusing read. Hopefully this will be a case of 'all press is good press'.


Sure I get the implications "foreign companies are conspiring to turn your kids into fascists", but it does'nt excuse such poor research, contradictions in the same sentence or basic errors in sentence construction. But then I'm wierd like that.

You'd think such serious allegations would warrant a far more thorough investigation instead of sloppy ranting, wouldn't you?

Loranthas
01-12-2011, 00:24
Well it is a terrible article to begin with, including poor language and very disputable methods. Instead of producing a coherent piece of journalism the writers give a fearful collage of negative only narrations.

Well it's phobic, derogatory and ... not really news as every a couple of years journalists rediscover the "Dens of evil" that suspicious looking people with unimaginable and obscene rituals collaborate to corrupt the souls of youngsters through the nation.

Then their editors snap them back to reality and forget the whole thing...

Lord Squidar
01-12-2011, 00:56
I come from South Africa and we have a rather strange problem with satanic cults. Its mostly derange people obviously, but every once in a while a cat turns up sacraficed and there are certain places (Port Elizabeth) that have a really bad rep for this kind of stuff. Mostly because nothing else exists there and the media get bored. More recently there was a human sacrafice attempt that was initially blamed on satanists but it turns out the people involved are just loopy. it doesnt help that all the satanists caught doing stuff are white adding to the list of stereotypes about whites being evil etc...

Long story short, all that clandestine occult activity is blamed on gamers and warhammer and MTG and DND. When I was in high school, dnd was banned by the headmaster as a satanist activity! Churchs force kids to burn pokemon cards, dnd is ridiculed as is any other activity other than watching sport and drinking your liver into oblivion. I think every country in the world has similar stories which prove that the majority of people are ignorant about the fun activities that exist to get yourself involved in =)

Myrmidon616
01-12-2011, 08:01
@Harwammer: I like the fact that you've quoted me as saying that, it makes me sound cleverer, but I believe the original quote is from blackcherry. ;)

Corvus Corone
01-12-2011, 10:12
No, this is abuse. You want 12A, next door. :evilgrin:

Hat tipped to you good sir.

bolshie
01-12-2011, 15:45
they dont WANT to understand. in most cases, these reporters decide what they write before they do the interviewes and just make questions to lead ppl into saying what they wanna hear.

Indeed...

"how long have you been playing?" "did you paint them yourself?" "have you read Mein Kampf?"

Godzooky
01-12-2011, 15:49
Greeks versus Geeks? :shifty:

Sorry if somebody's already said that.

No way I'm trawling through all that to check.

Myrmidon616
01-12-2011, 19:27
The guys at THQ have posted a link to the blog article on the Space Marine facebook fan page ...

edit: and on the DoW II one as well.

prowla
01-12-2011, 20:05
Maybe this is how we look to the outside world? :(



Laughs, not a chance! A bunch of young adults moving "evil" plastic men on a gameboard? Have you ever seen the video games the kids play these days? The only thing people I know find strange about my hobby, is how much I'm willing to pay GW for a bunch of plastic men :D

Doesn't sound very objective journalism.. "On the surface, it all looks innocent, like a nice hobby.. but let's dig deeper and find the fascist symphaties!" Heavens forbid someone tells that journalist that in Flames of War you can play the ACTUAL Nazis! :p

Jacktheripper34
01-12-2011, 20:32
Well umm... Wow. To be honest as a 22 year old American college kid I can't say I care enough to go too in depth into this. All I'll say is that her sample sucked, she used one tournament in one town in one country and stereotyped "thousands of people between the ages of 18-39" (by the way I started at age 10). So basically she's an idiot. There are many different types of gamers out there, sure you have your neo-nazis and shut ins, but then you have professionals and students who do go to the movies and to clubs and date women who also happen to paint toy soldiers and play an imaginative game that goes along with it.

All in all, who cares what she thinks,

Cheers
Jack

Ithaka
01-12-2011, 21:16
Many of them have read the low literary value novels based on the game's fluff,


I like how, in a bout of journalistic integrity, the auther read and reviewed every Black Library novel; presumably during the time that was set aside for proper structuring of the article.

Epistolary_tarchis
01-12-2011, 21:37
Well, i am no longer surprised why there are people who have a closed mind to the hobby, thanks to this article. Just insinuating that many of us are right wing neo-nazis is down right insulting and derogatory to us (oh, and slightly sexist).

Oh, and FYI journalist, if you are reading, keep your prejudice nose out of things that you have no knowledge about.

baphomael
02-12-2011, 01:25
Have there been any published pieces, be it articles or just letters-pages responses, to this article? Have there been any proper responses aside from forums, understandably, getting a bit rankled and critiquing the fail-journalism?

Rogue
02-12-2011, 02:44
I can't say for certain if the bad writting is just the translation gone off the rails, or if the paper is following the mantra of writting all of your articles for 6 graders. Regardless of the quality of writing, the paper is most definately making this a hit piece. I do find it an insulting piece to us Gamers, Americans, British, and guys that are not spending all their time only in bars chasing skirts, and playing Fantasy Football. My condolences to the Greek posters on here for dealing with this BS. I find this article as another example of a biased media who are desperately trying to direct the attention of their readers to something trivial rather than facing real issues of Greek society.

Sparowl
02-12-2011, 02:58
Pretty funny. Poorly written, though. Anyone with any idea on how decent research articles are written will recognize immediately that this author doesn't know how to write.

Ah well, we know better, as does hopefully the people around us.

MarcoSkoll
02-12-2011, 04:16
I'm somewhat disgusted by the fact they thought that kind of slander was acceptable to print. Hardly surprised though, as sensationalist journalism is apparently acceptable in this world.

Anyway, let's take this line - in her first section, no less:

"...the blackest, obscurantist, religionist, militaristic, fundamentalist, authoritarian, racist, abominable and repulsive world ever conceived by the human mind. In fact, by the British mind, since the game was coined and released in England at the beginning of the eighties."

I'm sorry, but the moment you start your article with a statement like that, you lose all rights to accuse us of being xenophobic.

massey
02-12-2011, 04:55
I say we use our Satanic powers and turn her into a servitor.

Geep
02-12-2011, 09:47
That's a really poorly written article, with terrible research and a clear goal regardless of evidence.

I don't think something like this will have much impact on gaming. It shows the game exists, which may get the interest of some, and I'd be really surprised if anyone took the (negative) advice from such a poor article.

xxRavenxx
02-12-2011, 09:56
That's a really poorly written article, with terrible research and a clear goal regardless of evidence.

There is a lot of redundancy in your statement. Next time I suggest going with: "That's a newspaper article".

BlackJuju
02-12-2011, 10:08
when i was in the military and ppl heard about me gaming, i was sent to a psychiatrist (seriously). this is greek society's reaction. heck, I dont know what my post-military work rep would be if i didnt have the "patriot that served in special forces" credentials.
Thats **** Im Greek too and I dont have a single problem while I was in Greece(now cuase of my work I live in Fargo, North Dakota USA for almost 2 years), wargaming and in the army... Sir you are a liar.
Of course some people would call me a geek, but I never had a problem wargaming in Greece and we had a strong community with no problem whats so ever, and yes wargaming in Greece has a strong attendance.
But you, Pyriel, you are a liar and slanderer!

Pyriel
02-12-2011, 11:09
i dont remember calling anybody names. and i still wont call anybody names.

wargaming has existed for decades. in Greece, wargaming is barely a decade old-that means its new. like MYSELF already admitted in a previous post, we have a nice community that plays in a way i like (no-comp , usualy no-restrictions tournaments, but with seperate awards for painting, etc). i already stated that.

tell me the truth: when soldiers take their oaths, do they not ask them if they are not orthodox(not even if they are another christian dogma)? i was an atheist forced to lie about it, because they'd consider me "less greek" for not being an orthodox, let alone a christian. THAT part, i hadnt even mentioned. the few guys that did say they were atheists, they were sent to clean the nearby church in the base while the REST took their vows. and i didnt see them again-i'm guessing they were sent to other, less-important corps, though that COULD be false.

a wargamer wont have a problem *wargaming* in greece. but stop saying he wont have any problems as a person who *happens* to be a wargamer. wargamers have minor problems in EVERY country in the world-it's just in greece these problems tend to be kinda bigger.

you know the ironic phrase "Στην Ελλάδα ζούμε..." (=We live in Greece(implied: what did you expect?)) that most every greek uses. stop being in denial, stop defending the country with words, defend it with ACTIONS (i.e. disgrace every bad thing it has and work till the country improves). no more "φακελάκι" for doctors-we have a right to trust the one that operates our children, not watch him blackmail us! no more "Στην Ελλάδα ζούμε..." when we see scandals and corruption cases-we have a right for corruption to be at least rare enough to shock us!
we have a right to athletes and scientists being encouraged and laid-back clubbers that do nothing be discouraged. we have a right for hobbies not to be considered a Neonazi or crazy idea. we have a right for mainstream culture to be what is "usual" not what is "expected/demanded".

if one guy is a slanderer here, it is the ONE guy that resorted to namecalling twice. sadly, this is becoming more political than i'd like- i am trying to stop posting here, especialy because such an article, i repeat for umpteenth time is not uncommon enough to mean anything, but accusations and namecalling against me specificaly (if you disagree, you could just state different experiences instead of refering to me and calling me a liar for something that deeply disturbed me-i can assure you, seeing a -distrusting- psychiatrist for some days isnt exactly simple or relaxing) are hard to just leave as is. i would politely ask you , assuming you still disagree, to keep posting but avoid namecalling.

cyas.

BlackJuju
02-12-2011, 11:42
You keep telling lies in this forum and libel Greece in this forum.
Im a Greek and I never had a problem wearing a pentagram on my t-shirt or telling Im an atheist in Greece.
Im 39 years old and I lived in Thessaloniki, Greece till I was 37 wargaming and I never had a problem whats so ever.
You sir, you are just a slanderer.
I cant understand whats your point of portraiting Greece as a spanish inquisition ridden country, wich is of course lies.

To the rest of Non-Greek forum members, dont belive a word from this guy called Pyriel about Greece and Greek people.


Edit:And the economic state and problem that a country is facing, has nothing to do with wargaming, stop this nosence of comparing Greece political/economic problems with wargaming and 40k in particular in Greece.

philbrad2
03-12-2011, 21:20
The issue here is the article and its content and not the people or country of Greece who have enough on their plate currently without hacked off wargamers. I suggest we leave racism out of this discussion and keep to what was in the article and try and keep comments constructive.

You have been warned! First and only time!

PhilB
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